BS: The Deckman has decided ...

Subject: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:25 PM

... NOT to participate in ANY political discussions until after the U.S. elections this coming November. For the last months I have watched the angst rise, again and again. I've observed perfectly placed and phrased questions get trashed and watched the threads degenerate into garbage.

I have also decided that I will not participate in any thread started by any "guest." I'm of the opinion that many of these "guests" exhibit an attitude that I do not wish to read.

What I do look forward to is participation in any thread relating to folk music, or other serious questions, that I feel I can honestly and politely contribute something of value. Especially if I can cause someone to chuckle. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:41 PM

It's a good decision Bob and life will be happier without! I quit awhile back and I'm around less but my enjoyment factor while here is far greater!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:41 PM

Bob, I think you're onto something. Discussions don't get far before they get trashed by zealots. Since explanations don't work (because if you don't accept that individual's point of view they accuse you of evading the issues) avoiding those threads is probably the answer. Tho I've duked it out on a couple, my consumption of this stuff is way down.

My moniker is Stilly River Sage and I'm a Mudcat-holic. . . :)

Have you been by the Mudcat Tavern lately? We were waiting for Mmario to arrive (i.e., notice us) and offer to cook something big. And Rapaire has rattled off a long list of alcoholic beverages available at the MOAB--if you can get them at MOAB you can get them in the tavern. Might need to wheel a couple of folks over from the Mudcat Recovery Ward.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:07 PM

I'll PM a friendly reminder if you backslide, Bob.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:15 PM

Well, good on you. I'll take up the slack fir ya, pal, since being the eternal optomist, I figure I might get one knothead Bushite to rethink his or her knotheadedness...

Aww, jus' funnin...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:15 PM

Apart from a couple of things, like my "Bush on Clinton" thing, I've pretty much removed myself from political discussions. They seem pointless; nobody's mind will change. Like Deckman, I'm not going to participate in a "GUEST"-started thread if I can help it.

I will, however, continue in MOAB and some other threads, including some "above the salt" if I feel that I can contribute something.

By the way, compiling that list was interesting. Did you know that there is no liquor beginning with the letter "U" (that I could find)? And that to use "X" I had to use xylene, which I don't suggest you drink. I forgot "Izarra", too, even though I have a bottle of this lovely Basque liqueur sitting the cabinet a few feet away.

NOTE: I reserve the right to discuss things like using the right wing nuts, etc., as I feel that some discussions deserve a bit of humor.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:25 PM

I'm encouraged that I'm finding sympathetic friends. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:30 PM

Bob, at a certain point political polemics produce boredom. I reserve the right to toss in silly comments, but otherwise, I'm with you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:39 PM

Same here, Deckman, but you've said it a lot nicer than I would.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:41 PM

Bob,

Good on ya, man. I have tried to make similar resolutions, but I keep falling off the wagon and wading back in to the battle. Sigh. I will try to be better.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:45 PM

Amos, after launching that "scrotum shark" ditty of yours, I think they'll try to block you at the door! You may have no choice but to behave yourself!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:48 PM

Amos ... In case you, or anyone else, don't know what it means to be Finnish: once we've said it, that's it. me

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:52 PM

Nice move, Deckman. I am not sure what "class" is, but "I know it when I see it".

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:53 PM

LOL!!

I had no idea that piece of doggerel -- er...fisherel...sharkerel? would produce such lasting reverberations!! Musta touched a noive, I guess!

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:54 PM

Well, I guess that Finnishs it, huh Bob?

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:44 PM

It doesn't matter to me who starts a thread, the question is who will end it?

Seriously, I bowed out of political threads a long time ago. I feel I don't have the savvy to compete with those more politically advanced than I. Or else it could have been that I am not into a political suicide debate,when saying something, sets another person off the wrong way, when all I am doing, is saying what I feel about the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Janie
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:55 PM

Ditto, Bob.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Mudlark
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 12:24 AM

Ditto squared.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:15 AM

I'm caught between your sentiments in which I'm in complete agreement, and the fact that I've learned an awful lot from some of those threads...usually right before they descend into the name calling and emotional hysterics.

There are many here who are very astute and have led me towards a far greater understanding of politics than I might have gotten anywhere else.

And by now, I recognise the names, and look for the ones who I pretty much know will forgo the theatrics and deal with the truths, if they can be found.

So I'll still look on and read, and occasionally comment, as this has proved to be something I consider personally healthy. It forces me to reexamine my own sometime knee-jerk reactions to various subject and see whether I know my beans or not.

Hey, Deckman! Does this include e-mails to friends?? There are those of us who value your opinions, and also your screams of anger, disappoint, protest, elation, etc etc. I would dearly miss them all, and offer you an open heart and mind to any and everything you care to comment upon.

But you already know that!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:21 AM

hi Deckman

congratulations on your decision!

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: fat B****rd
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:13 AM

Good play, Deckman.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: polaitaly
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:29 AM

Rapaire, have you ever heard of "Uzo"? (I'm not sure about the spelling- maybe I should ask El Greko.)It's a greek liquor flavoured with anise, like the french Pastis.And for the X, what about Xeres? I think it's a wine, not a liquor, but it's always alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:13 AM

No Ellen, you'll continue to get my daily e-mails like usual. And as I said earlier, I will continue to puruse MC, but I'm going to be very choosy about what I read.

I'm reminded of something our mutual friend once told me: "You are what you read." I think there's some truth in that. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:14 AM

Nah, I know about Uzo. I just forgot about it. And Xeres is a variant spelling of Sherry -- I forgot that, too.

Terrible, gettin' so old you can't remember the names of likker.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 09:35 AM

"I'm a Right Wing Nut,
You're a Left Wing Nut."

TTO: "I'm a Pink Toothbrush"

(Look Out! The Fooles have snuck in...)

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 10:01 AM

I wish all newcomers would read this thread.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 10:59 AM

Well, Bob, I have thought hard about it. And I am going to continue to post to the political threads because I believe that doing so actually does communicate -- if not to the thick headed and scurrilous opponents (:>)), perhaps to the innocent unnamed lurker who is thinking about things to himself. But in any case I have made a choice for silence too many times in my life, and so I will continue to speak out when I see the need. Especially in this strange and worrisome era.

Needless to say, anyone is welcome to ignore those threads, or my posts in particular, should they feel like it. I don't mind.

As for Guests, I take 'em as I find them -- usually eminently ignorable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 11:10 AM

I thought that was spelled with an "O"--along the lines of "Ouzo."

If you're going to keep it up Amos (and I remind myself as well) make sure you have durable links to good solid resources, keep your quotes clear and brief, and be aware that some folks consider name-calling a reasonable form of discourse. That's the most depressing part--when the argument falls apart, getting nasty isn't going to win it for anyone, but for some, wearing down debaters with shrill arguments feels like winning. It has been too easy to get dragged into those verbal slug-fests, and I have to remember to ask myself "when I stumble upon this post a couple of years from now, will I be horribly embarrassed that I went ahead and sent it?"

Chances are that over the week and a half since Reagan died, the answer is "yes" for a few.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM

I drank ouzo once. Once was all it took.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM

Ouzo is weird....the GOOD stuff is Metaxa, preferably Grand Fin in the ceramic flask...YUMMMMMMMM....

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:12 PM

I'm with Kim on the ouzo.

Bob, congratulations! I'm going to still stick my oar in from time to time on the political threads, though, if only to keep the Mudcat neo-lefties from becoming TOO complacent.

I made a vow years ago not to comment in a thread started by a GUEST but back-slided probably the same day I made the pledge. GUEST said something that provoked me as I recall. However, I, too, don't spend as much time on the mudcat as I did at one time.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Alba
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 01:24 PM

Right with you Deckman. I look in and contribute seldom these days. I still love the Mudcat and miss a lot of Folks that aren't posting.
I miss the imagination and banter of old, but hey.
Ive made some GREAT Friends through the Cat and will coninue to look in daily in the hope of......!
Here's to better Days ahead.
Love, Light and Blessings to all.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 02:02 PM

I can certainly agree with what Bob the Deckman says. There is a gargantuan amount of wordage poured into the "BS: Politix" threads compared to the amount of worthwhile information imparted. Far more heat than light.

I, as, I am sure, have you, have reached a point where certain names at the top of a post are a warning that the post itself is going to be long and tedious and contain a whole litany of misinformation, exaggeration, and outright propaganda. Having read (wasted my time on) many of these, I have learned to simply skip over them because I know the quality of the verbiage (garbiage?) they will contain.

I am also fed up with the invective that some folks use when confronted with an idea with which they disagree. On a number of occasions I have posted a link to a page on logical fallacies that details the argumentum ad hominem, with which someone attempts to refute an argument by attacking the person making the argument. That is not a refutation, it is merely a diversion, and has no validity. It also reveals the fact that the person using the argumentum ad hominem does not have a good refutation, otherwise they would use it instead of a weak attempt to divert or anger the opposing debater. Cheesy and cheap, but there are people here who do little else.

However, I do not plan to abandon checking the political threads because I have picked up a lot of valuable information by following links that some people have posted. And often during my own information-gathering processes I encounter things that I think people should know, so if it's a forthcoming television or radio program, I try to alert people to watch, if it's a book, I recommend it, or if it's on a web site, I post a link to it.

While reading through these threads, I have learned to be selective. This does not mean that I will not read the posts of those whose viewpoints disagree with my own, because if the argument is well-reasoned and presented, I often learn a great deal from them. And confronted with a well-reasoned argument, I have actually been known to change my mind (e.g., I used to be conservative, which, interestingly enough, gives me an insight into a lot of the arguments I read because I have used them myself). But endless wrangles over matters of established fact ("Is too!" "Is not!") that dominated many threads are a total waste of time and bandwidth, and once I determine that a thread has degenerated to that level, I stop reading and move on.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 02:31 PM

Someone wrote that opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one.

I'm tired of the argumentums too, Don. On Mudcat, in politics, in the news, on the street. Changing one's mind, for instance, doesn't mean that someone is indecisive; it can mean that they are mature and secure enough to learn. And while "mature and secure" might be argued in my case, I've changed my mind on issues any number of times. I fear the single-minded far more than I fear the mind-changer.

Why can't there be reasoned debate? What passes for debate today is a shouting match.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:20 PM

As a bit of a departure (but only from the particular decision Bob made on this occasion) Bob told me recently of his decision to not see any more of his cats killed in car/cat collisions on the road in front of the house. Also deciding not to keep his cats in the house forever, he acted by building an innovative enclosure for his cat that includes the stump of a tree, grass, bugs, and all of the outdoor pleasures, if somewhat curtailed by dimension. He built the cat door enclosure to end all enclosures. You don't happen to have a photo of that you can send to Pene Azul to post, do you? I wonder if I photographed that when I was in Everett. I'll have to go look for those photos. I've been mulling over how to construct something similar for my cats (that will leave the June bugs and mosquitoes out in the yard).

SRS

Okay. Back to not talking about politics. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:44 PM

Maggie, I'll e-mail you, or FAX you, the design concept. Mine was an easy weekend project, measures 8' X 12' inside. The materials came to under $200. Bob

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 03:58 PM

Looks like it's you and me then, eh Bobert? ;-)

As the guest who pissed off Deckman, I'd just like to say: take a deep breath, it's only an internet chat forum. If participating in the hand to hand combat of democratic debate is too much for you, then you are right to bow out. Life is too short and sweet to mix it up in political threads if you don't enjoy mixing it up in political threads.

But Deckman--rather than demonizing and blaming others for all your political BS unhappiness, why not just admit to yourself you don't enjoy the banter? Speaking of ad hominem sorts of things...

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:10 PM

Does this apply to emails as well? I have a new computer ordered and was looking forward to your reply to my Reagan funeral comments. Ah well, November isn't that far away...

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:19 PM

Having known Deckman since we were both knee-high to a duck, I can say with certainty that he can banter with the best of them. It's just that he has an efficient, finely tune bullshit filter and a somewhat low tolerance for that particular substance, as have I.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 04:23 PM

Congratulations. So do I.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: freightdawg
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 05:25 PM

Ah, a kindred spirit.

Seems like the BS section used to be a collection of zany stories, poetic observances, and the occasional (albeit always appropriate) gift of gab from that gifted emcee, ol' Bobert hisself.

I'm with ya, Deckman, although my decision will probably extend beyond November. With such talented and witty members as we have here it is a shame that we have to muck around in the verbal effluent that comprises most political threads.

As a famous old 'dawg once said, "he who throws mud loses ground."

"I see skies of blue...and I think to myself, what a wonderful world"

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 07:06 PM

Good idea Deckman and all. I've been doing the same. Trying to anyway.
Stilly River Sage, We had a cat enclosure when we had a cat. Wouldn't have been as four XXXX as Bob's but it worked and the cat loved it. Thought she was outside and free. Here in Australia cats do terrible damage to the natural environment. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: Miken
Date: 15 Jun 04 - 08:41 PM

Guest,
Your filter doesn't seem to work in both directions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:03 AM

Well Deckman, it does get boring but... besides learning a great deal, I think its important to protest with words when you read blatant propaganda or opinions that keep us enslaved. I also agree that there are lurkers who might be deciding about issues. Its important to voice all sides. If people like you withdraw, thats one less perspective. I don't think its important to win an argument. I think its important to debate the issues fairly. I agree that personal attacks should not be part of the discussion but doesn't that just expose the ignorance of the person doing the insulting?

Besides being somewhat boring, its also addictive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:11 AM

Oh yeah - I like to hear opinions whether or not they are backed by reliable resources. This is not a university course. As long as opinions are prefaced by 'I think' or 'I feel' people should express themselves. I don't enjoy dogma but if I sense that the comment is not a well thought-out opinion, I will ask for clarification. Why shouldn't this just be a conversation or a discussion? Why does it always degenerate into an argument or a personal attack? Have we forgotten the art of conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: The Deckman has decided ...
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 11:44 AM

"Why does it always degenerate into an argument or a personal attack? Have we forgotten the art of conversation?"

First off, what is wrong with political argument? A political argument means the same thing as political debate means.

Secondly, people need to realize that everyday conversation is not the same thing as conversation where people are engaging in rhetorical argument and debate. The social etiquette rules of the two are quite different.

Ad hominem, or personal attacks should never be allowed, but because of the Mudcat double standard of social etiquette--one for members, one for anon guests, ad hominem attacks against anon guests are as common as the ubiquitous Lincoln penny. Because anon guests are as ubiquitous as members in the political threads, you usually see the same members personally attacking anon guests (it inevitably begins with the nastiest of name calling), and then it's all downhill from there. That is the social dynamic of these threads. Once members start insulting and attacking the anon guests because they can do so with impunity, the quality and level of the discussion drops precipitously into the ugly free for all.

BTW, I am able to suss out three distinct anon guests who regularly participate in the political threads who don't engage in personal attacks, so I wonder why members can't?

The level of animosity in the threads wouldn't be nearly as bad if it weren't for this double standard of etiquette.

FWIW, I would add that the other piece of the dysfunctional social dynamic in the political threads is what I call the 'wounded male ego syndrome'. I rarely encounter problems with the women involved in the arguments and debates. But there does seem to be a real problem in this forum among certain male members, who all too easily suffer a wounded ego in the course of the debate, and then turn viciously on other contributors. Unfortunately, instead of other more mature members calling them on it, certain other members will pile right on with them with their "I agree with..." posts. That doesn't do much for the standard of discourse here either.

It is also part and parcel of this forum--most contributors here believe their only choice is to take it or leave it, hence these assinine, juvenile threads that are begun by wounded male members (I have yet to see one of these threads started by a woman) to gain sympathy from their fellow Mudcatters about how awful the bad anon guest is that made them mad.

Yawn.