 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Respect and civility
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:49 PM We too believe in uncovering our feelings, or their referents, and getting off what is on our chests. We, too, believe that firmness is often the greatest virtue, but we do not think therefore that it needs to be pursued artificially, because we believe that "Artificial substance givers rise to artificial feelings". So I think we have a lot in common once we round things off correctly. Be Breast, Andrew Lahloverim, Apprentice Aspirant Temple of the Golden Curve |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Pogo Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:40 PM Well to throw in a nickle and a dime ...I quite frankly enjoy discussing religion much like I enjoy discussing say literature or history or music. It's a way to pass the time and a way to see different views. Only sometimes it dissolves into generalizations and pointless arguements (" Well all pagans act like this... " " Well oh yeah...well all Christians act like this... " " And what about you Buddhists huh? ")and this saddens me cause then it seems no one is trying to understand anymore...everyone is just vying to show why THEIR religion is the best religion to belong to. I believe very strongly in a spirit of mutual goodwill and tolerance to accompany religious discussions...really the main purpose is to understand why the other fellow chooses to believe this way. As for my own beliefs I am quite happy with my belief in God. If someone wants to know more then I will be happy to talk to them about it. Otherwise I don't bring up the subject. I never try to push my beliefs in people's faces but I feel no shame in believing and praying to Heavenly Father, supporting my religious leaders and going to church on a regular basis. I just don't see the point of arguing about WHY anyone believes the way they do. I mean...they're going to believe however the sweet hades they want to believe. Nothing you or I or the Pope or the President or anyone says is going to change that if they are that firmly cemented in their beliefs. Okay...sorry I just had to get that off my chest. Yawl know how it is with me now so I won't need to say anything more huh?...I'll shut up. Ohh-kay. {O) May fleas never infest your wives' beards |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:40 PM Amos, You are a prince among men. How do I join? What must I do? Must I take the pebble from your hand? Speak, Amos, for in this enlightment process may be found the seeds of a new beginning. Imagine the freedom: no longer having to view pictures hidden behind newspapers. No longer having to feel that women come in three parts as they do in the finer magazines that one reads only for the articles. So, like, is there a ring to kiss or anything like that? Brucie |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:19 PM I misspelled it anyway. I meant to say LYNX. I recently read, "My Ritual Mating with a Canadian Lynx" by Claude Bolz, and I was absolutely fascinated. I hope this won't be interpreted as thread drift. Double C Breast. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:19 PM Brucie, Enlightenment is a slow process. We offer orientation courses for those who want help getting in touch with their feelings, and also advanced Barille techniques. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:14 PM Hark. Is the thread entitled Temple of the Golden Globes about what I think? Sorry. Forget I asked for LINKS on the other thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: freda underhill Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:14 PM anyone having a bad hair day is going to find someone to blame it on, thats what a bad hair day is all about. interesting to compare comments on the 8th deadly sin (intolerance was recommended as the most dangerous one) with comments here (no i haven't) but it seems there are some things we are proud to be tolerant about (major differences like race) but happy to let fly on much smaller foibles and irritants. but its all the same emotion. imho it doesnt matter how we sign off - is this an argument re style over content? and all this time i thought you were a pagan, georgiansilver! freda |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:12 PM Amos, I have found many references to the Temple of the Golden Curve already. I am transfixed! I feel a deep need to worship at the altar. Where is the Temple located? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:12 PM Amos, Have you boobed by not posting a link? You have my complete but divided attention. WE WANT LINKS! WE WANT LINKS! WE WANT LINKS! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Bill D Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:06 PM ok..one last clarifying post and I will retire from this. georgiansilver...you ask.." I would like to know how you arrive at this understanding. Have I in any instance tried to inflict my beliefs on anyone?" .....Please read the following, trying, as you ask others to do, in the spirit in which is was intended. This is the first time I have responded to or mentioned Georgiansilver's signature...I did so because the thread was relevant, in that it was started in order to make a point about civility and the animosity which has developed in some quarter. I 'tried' to explain why some are bothered, and why in a forum like this, context is so important. "blessings, Barbara" used that signature with, as far as I can find or remember, NO reference to any religion whatsoever. I have NO idea whether she is religious or not. It 'felt' simply like good wishes. (I sometimes refer to MY blessings, using it simply as a shorthand for "happiness and good fortune which I obtained with no particular credit to my own efforts"....a quite non-religious context) Georgiansilver, on the other hand entered this forum with many direct and specific references to HIS religion... "but I believe and you have to believe before you can begin your understanding..not the other way round. I say to all of you, keep seeking the truth..yes I said the truth..because satan will lead you up the garden path and back again to stop you finding your salvation in Jesus Christ. I was lost but now I'm found...was blind but now I see....My suggestion to you is..get a Bible with Jesus words in red..or highlighted...read them and then make your mind up....I know that some of you(just by the things you have written already) are not ready to find Jesus...that's up to you..but I won't knock your belief so please don't knock mine." (from April 12) that seems clear enough to me...'believe BEFORE you understand' 'the TRUTH is already determined...just pay attention'. Is this 'over the line' regarding "inflicting beliefs on others"?...obviously, opinions differ. No one can 'inflict' much on anyone in a VT text chat, but words are powerful in ANY relationship, real or virtual. ...so, if some, given this context, presume that all offered 'blessings' from GS are of a specific type and suggest that those who have not found "the truth" need to find his notion of the "truth", it is not surprising. Yes, I can certainly ignore posts that bother me, and most likely will not get into this again, as I have no doubt that GS is, in person, a good and delightful fellow to know, who shares music and helps people. We debate many things here at Mudcat, and expressions of personal attitudes towards living life harmoniously is just one...and I'll guarantee you that some ways of going about it will inspire controversy. Martin Gibson has no corner on the market, even if he does have pretty good luck...*grin* |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM Hmmm. Interesting. I shall have to look into this. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 04 - 06:44 PM Some of you may be aware that it was here in the pages of the Mudcat that the now planet-scale organic religion known as the Temple of the Golden Curve was first founded, demonstrating a pronounced tendency for forward thinking and front-viewing on an almost mystic level by the participants. There are a number of threads which go over the remarkable history of this fine religious organization, and our growth curve has been exemplary in spite of the fact that management personnel are notoriously soft touches. But we compensated with a lot of support from the very up-front folks who understood our vision. As well as being one of the Founders I am also an aspirant of the Temple. Be Breast, A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 06:30 PM expect should read respect....sorry! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:58 PM Wolfgang. I may have many differences of opinion with members(and the dreaded "Guest") on the cat but I bear no-one any malice. I came on to join something I thought would be a sensible discussion forum and for the most part it is. It matters not to me if someone is abusive if that is how they choose to be but I don't really know them and they don't know me. I try to treat all with the kind of expect I would "like" for myself and will put "Be Blessed" on all posts as a matter of course whether I am personally praised or abused. Be Blessed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:50 PM he was obsessed with his sacred mission which was to convert all other people to atheism, thus "saving" them, I assume, from the folly of their ways. God, was he annoying. (Little Hawk) You're so right, I know these types. They truly are annoying. Replace one word and you have a description of Georgiansilver. Georgiansilver, it isn't annoying to me if you end a normal post with 'be blessed'. But it feels wrong, superficial and 'Look I'm better than you' if you for instance end a post to MG this way after he has called you names. In these situations it feels completely out of context. It reminds me in these contexts of the newly trained too friendly salespeople I encounter over here since a few years. I walk in a shop just to buy a roll or whatever, still half asleep, don't want to talk to anybody I don't really know and then the Lady says "Good morning Sir, what can I do for you" and later "Is there anything else I can sell you...goodbye, have a nice day, come again soon thank you for your custom". It sounds artificial and trained and anything but genuine. That's how you sound to me when you use the 'be blessed' in a context where I would expect a bit stronger words. I don't know whether the English language knows 'Pharisean' as an adjective. That's how you come over for me if you use the two words more or less independent of the context. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:38 PM brucie - Dang! There I was thinking the goat had finally arrived. Oh well, I'm glad to here about your good fortune anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:37 PM Don't be so sure about that, Art. :-) (not that I'm saying I know from personal experience, but....) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: artbrooks Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:29 PM Pesonally, and as a non-practicing Deist, I think that god (or God, if your religious and/or grammatical preferences require) isn't enough of an activist to respond to "Be Blessed" by doing much of anything. On the other hand, if using that as a closing fits into GS's personal view of the universe, who does it harm? It clearly makes him happy, and it doesn't harm anyone else...unless their hypersensitivity borders upon the pathological. None of us are really going to know the answer on the basis of personal experience in this lifetime anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:29 PM Naw. Be Blessed is a nice thing, and I know that from your perspective it's honest and given from the heart. Heck, when so many people around the world are yelling at each other, shooting at each other, it's good to know that some folks want something they consider to be nice for other folks, and with no strings attached. I was given a gift about three days ago, and it has changed me for the better. (Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.) I can't go into details--and no, it wasn't LH's goat--but something really got me in the heart, and now I think the world is a beautiful place. So, it would take a heckuva lot more than you telling me to Be Blessed to throw me off my milk. In fact, right now you could tell me to Be Buggerd and it wouldn't phase me a bit. Therefore, GS, you be blessed, too. Bruce M |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:20 PM The reason why, GS, is that it pushes their buttons. What if you were a declared atheist? What if you had begun your statement with "I am an atheist..." Well, then it would push a different set of buttons, and a different bunch of people would be bothered by it. As an atheist you could end each post with: "I'd say 'blessed be', but it wouldn't make any difference, because there's nothing out there to bless you, so I won't. I'd say 'good luck', but I don't believe in luck either. I'd say 'see ya later'...but maybe I won't, so I can't say that because it might prove false. Hmmm. Aw, just forget it!" That would probably bug certain people too, specially if it was after every single post. I say, stick with "Be Blessed". It's short, friendly, and easy to type (even if it isn't easy to say ten times in a row really fast). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:19 PM Merci bien Brucie et bon-chance(almost as good as Be Blessed eh?) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:18 PM Did y'ever notice that GS's threads grow like the seeds in "Jack and the Beanstalk"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:17 PM These individuals that use the French language to hit the fear in the hearts of mortal few one deserve to be assailed by flocks of exasperated porks! Couldn't have said it better myself, Little Hawk. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:13 PM Interesting views expressed above. Years ago when the "Have a nice day" remark was all the rage, I couldn't resist the temptation to respond, "Fu#k off and don't tell me what to DO!" That's got nothin' to do with anything, but then neither does the remark, "Be Blessed." Mostly because I don't know what it means. So, I ignore it. Thank you, though, GS. I think your motives are cool. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: jacqui.c Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:13 PM Jeri - I think you're right about people looking for arguments. There have been some interesting threads that I was enjoying following and even maybe formulating my own thoughts to post on and then certain people come in and spoil the discussion with iuncalled for hostility. It just makes me back off as I hate wasting energy dealing with such negative attitudes. Such a shame. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:10 PM Ces individus qui se servent du langage français pour frapper la crainte dans les coeurs de peu de mortels méritent d'être assaillis par des troupeaux de porcs exaspérés ! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:06 PM Not French again. (Sigh.) Now I have to go and get it translated. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Justa Picker Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:06 PM You HAVE imposed yours. You're just to brainwashed to realize it. The first 4 words of your intial post, were completely un-necessary to the rest of your message. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:05 PM Hell, I hate missing an opportunity, and I did. I pushed the submit button and went, "Dang!" It should have read, "Tea and Grumpwits?" Be Buttered. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 05:04 PM My signature line seems to be the cause of some problem for a few people but I cannot figure why. Even taking into account that there are differing religions on here. I have not encroached on anyones beliefs or tried to impose mine. Perhaps there is an attitude on the cat which reflects a kind of negativity in some people. I am no expert but I do know about me. Many don't but perhaps sometimes it might be prudent to accept people for who they are and only question opinions, giving ones own in the process. I thought that was what non-music threads were about. Be Blessed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:54 PM GS: I don't suppose I could persuade you to change you signature line a little, could I? All I can say is it would make you communications much more assimilable to me. If not, fine, chacun a son gout atroce. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:50 PM Jack the Sailor....you state...."It seems that we are not talking about the sign off right now but Georgiansilver's reaction to the way he is treated in the Mudcat because of it. It seems that he got a little steamed up and decided to blow off that steam in this thread. He's done that, a few of us have reacted. Some of us have blown off our own steam" My reaction to the way I am treated on mudcat??? How have you reached that conclusion please? What have I said to make you think that on any thread? Also, I have not felt one little bit "steamed up" or wanted to "blow off steam" as you put it and am not sure where your interpretation of that comes from. Did I blow off steam?? I would like to see some people on Mudcat showing respect and civility for each other...that's the message. I don't suppose it will happen as too many people are too ready to jump to conclusions or just jump. Be Blessed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Justa Picker Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:48 PM Apologies for the previous typos. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Justa Picker Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:47 PM I have a problem with the in-your-face "I am a Chrisitan" thing. Why do WE ... NEED... to know this? in communicating with someone who manages to include this phrase in their opening sentence or two? To me, it really implies a moral superiority and a veiled condescending attitude towards others of other beliefs and frankly I resent it, whether reading it on the internet or elsewhere. I believe it is a major turn off to a lot of people. It's like being smacked across the face with a copy of The Watch Tower. I don't need to be "wintessed" by anyone. I resent that too. Why the need to define this Christian "identity" to anyone you meet whether casually, socially, in business or on the internet? It's too much like a brainwashing . Are you not comfortable and secure enough within your own skin? Or is it an excuse/defense mechanism so that we don't challenge your moral and ethical "authority"? Whenever I meet anyone who is born again, honestly I say to myself, "what terrible and tragic personal catastrophe must this person have endured to have left them this way?" I really see it as a handi-cap in exactly the same way as I see anyone who has completely lost the ability to think independently for themselves - without a NEED to belong and be "validated" by the rest. Granted, if it gets you through the day and night, and harms no one else, fine by me. I think back to the old Cheech and Chong album of the 70s's "The Big Bambu" and the line from the ex-druggie "Before, I was all messed up on drugs, but since I found G-d, now I'm all messed up on the Lord." Just trading one crutch for another i.m.o. I'm not talking about spirituality. You don't have to belong to a religion to be spiratual within. But I guess a lot people believe that being religious is the vehicle to spirituality. I think not. How you feel if other religious people got in your face about everything in their day to day lives by clarifying and quantifying everything with: " Hi. I should let you know that I am Jew....therefore...".. or ....... "I am a Bhuddist and therefore".....or " I am a Catholic or...." or... [pick your favorite organized I think everyone should be free to practise their belief system anyway they like ON THEIR OWN OR WITHIN THEIR OWN KIND, but keep it the hell out of my face. So explain it all to me. But your words, not what they've brainwashed you to say. I sincerely want to know. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:43 PM Amos, he doesn't lisp and his wrist is as stiff as...... well, it's very stiff. GS is a big guy with a big heart. Life has dealt him some shitty hands, some of those shitty hands were maybe of his own making, but he's survived and has come through to be a Good Guy. He wishes everyone to have his good fortune - that's an admirable sentiment and far better than inverting his piss-pot on people's heads the way some of you have done on his. Get a life man. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Peace Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:43 PM Tea and Grumpwits? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:42 PM :LOL Are you getting enough fibre Amos? Maybe to much vibration in the groin area? Does the timing on the Indian need to be adjusted? I'll say one thing on your behalf, you are funny when you are cranky. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Jeri Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:40 PM Little Hawk, she is (or was) a Mudcat member. Signed off her posts (if I remember correctly) with 'Blessed Be'. I also don't recall her ever getting flamed for doing so. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Amos Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:34 PM Jeri: ROTLMAO!! Sorry for being an auld grumpwit. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:33 PM Maybe we should all end our posts with "Have a Nice Day? And Amos, how did you detect that GeorgianSilver lisps and waves a limp wrist when he says Be Blessed? Sounds homophobic to me. Just curious.. Good on you Amos: Jerry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:30 PM They may do that, Jeri. And they may do it for wildly differing reasons. Some people genuinely enjoy getting other people angry, some are merely kidding around but not meaning any harm, and so on... There are a lot of idle minds out there at the keyboard. Mary Garvey - Who in the World is Blessings Barbara???? I've got a feeling I should look it up on Google right away... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Jeri Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:22 PM Respect and civility for all....even those who like to think of themselves as my enemies. When I said that bit up there about "and if others would try to pay attention to what they were actually saying," this is what I was talking about. People seem to generally see whatever they want to read and are able to respond to. I've seen this a bunch of times: Q (by GUEST,Boffo): Can anybody tell me who wrote the song 'Dim as a Duck'? It's a very funny song I've been singing for a few years now, and I want to record it, but I need to find out who's got the copyright. Thanks in advance! A1: Here ya go! [types out lyrics] The lyrics were in the DT and very easy to find. You should really try to look there before asking for the lyrics. A2: Hey 'Boffo', buddy, I know who you really are! Don't answer him, people. It's just ________, playing his silly troll games again. A3: Boffo, you know you can become a member? It's really easy and you get all sorts of neat benefits like being able to send personal messages and tracing threads and stuff. Also, people are more likely to talk to you if you're a member. Boffo: Er, thanks guys, but anybody know who wrote the song? A4: Yeah, sure. I got it on the album "Chicken Hits" by Birdy and the Coop Kickers. A5: I'm familiar with the song, and I find it an offensive piece of crap. I've had ducks through the years, and they don't have sex like that. The song gives people the wrong impression, and is a serious insult. A6: Dear A5, don't get your panties in a wad, it's just a silly song. A7: Hey, I know a great joke about ducks... I could keep going. The basic theme of this mess I've written is that people often either can't seem to be able to read, or choose to focus on some side issue or completely fabricated issue just so they can type something or play their favorite game. Of late, there are inappropriate smart-ass comments, but people mostly seem to want to fight. Maybe we're all in a bad mood, but I really get the feeling many folks read a thread, any thread, searching for something they can take issue with. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:17 PM I've got the drop on most of you people (Oaklet excepted) because I know GS personally - indeed we applauded one another's singing only last evening. Many of you are totally misreading the guy. I assure you that GS has real reason to feel himself blessed, and that his sign-off of 'Be Blessed' is (a) an expression of thanks for the blessing he feels he has received and, (b) a wish that others with whom he comes into contact be similarly blessed. Why can't those of you are disturbed by the sign-off 'Be Blessed' simply accept that it's made genuinely and with good intent. If you don't like it, or feel uncomfortable with it, just ignore it. But don't slag a guy off for wishing you well. There are plenty of spunk-bubbles on Mudcat who deserve a bloody good gobful, save the venom for them and leave a genuinely nice guy alone. Johnny :0) PS - I use the word spunk in the British, not US, sense. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:16 PM Mary you make some good points. But I hope for all our sakes that this thread is not a model for the wider world. It seems that we are not talking about the sign off right now but Georgiansilver's reaction to the way he is treated in the Mudcat because of it. It seems that he got a little steamed up and decided to blow off that steam in this thread. He's done that, a few of us have reacted. Some of us have blown off our own steam. Everyone has made some good points. No one is calling names no one is acting bitter. No harm no foul right? If Georgiansilver is happy with the result, I'm happy. I don't think this thread have any big implications for big international problems. I think and hope its just a few friends getting to know each other better. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: kendall Date: 24 Jul 04 - 04:15 PM A wise man, probably Art Thieme, once said, "The best thing that ever came out of ORGANIZED religion, is the music." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: mg Date: 24 Jul 04 - 03:58 PM beats me how an innocuous generic signoff can generate so much animosity in a thread called respect and civility. We are all going to have to learn to be simultaneously more tolerant and ready to stand up mightly to abuses in the name of various religions or we will all die...Will you go after Blessings Barbara next? (hope I didn't give anyone any ideas) .mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Oaklet Date: 24 Jul 04 - 03:44 PM Thread drift of this severity cannot, under any circumstances be tolerated. But thanks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 03:43 PM Sorry CD not CDE |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Jul 04 - 03:42 PM Thank you Dave and I do appreciate your music(Cara). Looking forward to the new CD with "The Faerie Queen" on it. For anyone who has not heard the Folk Group in Lincolnshire called "Cara"...PM Dave(Oaklet) and order the new CDE. You would not be disappointed. Be Blessed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility From: Oaklet Date: 24 Jul 04 - 03:34 PM And if I could chip in me fourpenn'th- a really, really nice bloke. |
