BS: Respect and civility

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:49 AM

I would take whatever blessings I might be offered. Any positive thoughts are welcome. Mick's "all the best" is as much a wish for my welfare as "be blessed"- and I apreciate the intent behind both of them.


8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:40 AM

Saul, you are way off the mark here. No one is required by any rule of civility to change how they sign off unless they are doing something that is clearly intended to offend. In other words, if one signed off anti-semitic, racist, or openly hostile comments, that would clearly be intended to offend all people of conscience. "Be Blessed" could hardly be considered offensive in any terms, and those that take umbrage to it are likely folks that are so strident in their beliefs that they would take umbrage at any reference that wasn't strictly in line with their views.

Watching for intent is good sauce here. It seems clear that the intent of GS is to wish well to all. And the phrase used is very neutral. I would probably be offended if s/he knuckled under to this.

Statements made to reflect one's beliefs, that are not done in an intentionally offensive way, are not only within the bounds of civility, but are the ultimate expressions of civility. While I am not a Jew, or a Moslem, I would take a blessing from these or any group, in the spirit with which it was intended.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Bagpuss
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:40 AM

Jerry, what have you got against the Church of Whatever? What have we ever done to offend you?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: saulgoldie
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:24 AM

Went from "Respect and civility" to a discussion of religion. I accept that GS likes to sign off a certain way. But he has heard from many people who approve or are neutral, and some who have explained in clear terms that they are deeply offended by that action. It now goes back to him to RESPECT the wishes of those who do not take it in the spirit he intends it and refrain from signing off to them in that way, thereby showing his CIVILITY.

It matters not how he signs off or what his intentions are. It is that simple. Otherwise: "May a flock of geese make a deposit on your red convertible when the top is down." or maybe "I hope you find much congress at the coven meeting." "Respect and civility" is a two way street or it is not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: curmudgeon
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:39 PM

When Woody Guthrie was being admitted to the hospital for what would become his final stay, he was asked to fill in his religious preference on the admission form . Being Woody, he wrote "All."

The nurse advised him that he had to choose one particular faith, to which he replied, "All or none; take your choice."

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,Augie
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 09:31 PM

I've just read this thread from beginning to end and was reminded of nothing so much as"The Dutchman" author Michael Smith's recent lines;


"Some Say it was a Big Bang,others, Seven Days
But in this Clockwork Universe with its Convoluted Ways...
There's Doubt for those with evidence,and Faith for those with none.
Every Sense and Mind Agrees, an Artist Lives in All of These,
One who knows Intrinsically
Such Things are Finely Done,
Such Things are Finely Done."

No one has the One True Answer.There are as many different,true answers as there are people asking the question.

I'm comfortable with mine. I hope you are with yours. And if yours is different from mine, well at least lets try try to play in tune with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:46 PM

GUEST Blackcatter at work....I really don't claim to be happy to be talked about, nevertheless I am happy for anyone to question my opinions or statements on any thread. I don't hold myself above anyone else because of my beliefs. We were all thrust into this world..not by choice...and have to make our own way as best we can.. I just try..like everyone else, using the framework of my life experience...If yours differs from mine..so be it.. I can't change it. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at work
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 04:27 PM

GS started this thread because it is all about him around here. He's sitting back and enjoying this mere because we're talking about him.

Now, there's nothing wrong with that.


As for: Funny how a belief system so dedicated to peace

Am I to assume that you're talking about Chirstianity? If so, why do so many Christians kill? Please. That's just a silly statement regardles of the fact that may be a lot of Christians at Mudcat are peace-loving and don't have notches on their belts.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:48 PM

I think that GS started this thread because he wanted to be treated with respect and civility. We all want that. I don't believe he consciously meant to be disrespectful of others, himself.

Want a real zinger? My wife was always fond of saying, "I love you.. I just don't like the things that you do." Now, theologically, there's nothing wrong in that statement. But somehow it sounded infuriatingly judgmental, sugar-coated with a statement that "I love you." Now, if GS signed off THAAAAT way, I'd be the one to blow my top. :-)

Howzabout a closing salutation "Have a generic day?


Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:35 PM

I agree, Jerry. That's why I said very few religions are that accepting. This is precisely why religion is a sensitive topic. You literally cannot talk about your religion and at the same time avoid saying that someone else's deeply-held beliefs are wrong.

Saying to others "you are wrong" is impolite. And when GS says "I love all Gods kids (even those who don't know Him personally)," he is essentially saying "some of you do not know God, hence your religion is wrong." It would probably be better simply not to say this, but of course he has the right to say whatever he wants. It's just ironic that he started this thread for "respect and civility" and ended up, unwittingly I'm sure, making some people feel disrespected.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM

If you think that all beliefs and religions are equal, then what's the point? Might's well be a member of the Church of Whatever.. Having a strong belief is not in itself condescending to others. It had absolutely nothing to do with others. It's an intensely personal experience that is non-tranferable. Respecting others and treating them lovingly depends on what you believe, NOT on what they believe.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,cookieless Norton1
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:11 PM

God bless you Amos - heck - God Bless you all - In specific - may the God I worship bless you all.

Funny how a belief system so dedicated to peace can be found so offensive in this particular den of supposed peace advocates.

Have a bad day Amos??

Thank you GS - And God bless you and yours also -

Steve

PS - I think someone once told me - if you don't like it there is a BS filter and common sense available for you to make your choices from.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,Garton Mibson
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:08 PM

Friar Tuck. Friar Tuck. Friar Tuck. Lends a whole new meaning to the "Lincolnshire Poacher'

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 02:00 PM

I think many people are trying to have it both ways. GS says "be blessed" and claims that he isn't trying to spread his religios beliefs or prosletyse because "I love all Gods kids (even those who don't know Him personally) and think that each of us....however brought into the world...however brought up...should be given the benefit of the doubt."

Perhaps he can't see how condescending this is. First of all, he defines others as people who don't know God personally, then says he will give us "the benefit of the doubt" anyway. So it's not a question of "I see your beliefs as the equal of mine" but "I see mine as the REAL path to God, and yours as an error, but I don't blame you for the error." Mighty white of you, as they used to say.

On the OTHER hand...

Be Blessed is just what folklorists call a "leave-taking formula." It is just like "have a nice day," actually, or "see you later, alligator," or indeed like "Goodbye" which was originally "God be by you" (in the sense of 'with you'). Some of us use a sort of personalized leave-taking that expresses our own personality, and if GS is a Christian then his "be blessed" is no different than my friend Ozzie's "Peace, man." Both could be read as foisting an ideology on you, but I don't think either is intended that way.

So GS, no problem with the "be blessed" thing. And I do understand that your belief system may truly be unable to perceive other religions as equally valid and right; it is rare for a religion to be that accepting, of course. So you should be aware that an attitude that your religion is superior DOES sometimes come through in what you say, and may continue to do so whenever you talk about religion. Perhaps the best solution would be not to talk much about religion except in religious forums.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 07:14 AM

Not being religious, I have no especial reaction to GS's "Be Blessed", though I do think I once responded on some thread or other to him with "Blessed Be". I thought I was just returning a nice energy coming my way back to him in another form.

I really do understand the impact of words, even to the point of having written a note to Joe Offer about removing a thread that had become so filled with explicitives and nasty thoughts that even my most liberal of minds reeled from the onslaught it had to my psyche.

We need to be cogniscent of the power of words-how easily they can be misinterpreted, and how effectively they can be used to offend, defend, or influence. Each time we tap out our little (or large) postings here at Mudcat is an opportunity to connect or disconnect with others.

This thread is as good an example of any on how this works for us, and I for one am glad to be a part of the continuing discussions.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:57 AM

That took guts! Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:36 AM

A Nava(e)l Tour?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Jul 04 - 03:29 AM

What a Knave!or is it Nave?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:47 PM

Did you show her your apse?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:25 PM

I'm hoping to Brucie. Met a nice lady at church today. She let me give her the special tour, if you know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:13 PM

Be screwed. Why doesn't anyone . . . ah, never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 10:54 PM

Thankyou Georgiansilver.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:57 PM

You never know, ake.. :-) Right now, all we have is the moment.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:40 PM

Jerry ...Im not in your boat.
You're bound for Glory.........Im bound for Hell....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:37 PM

Yep - gotta watch them chicken's inhaling too much swamp gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Pogo
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:27 PM

That's a nice way of putting it Jerry. Mmm-hmm. *nods* I likes it.

Foolstroupe: LOL Uhm...yeah...sumpin' like that...

And in parting, live long and prosper, may your kumquats be numerous and may chickens never spontaneously combust on your front porch.

{O) {OD

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 02:05 PM

Thanks, Harpgirl: I don't have an agenda. I don't consider mudcat a particularly good place to discuss faith... or even a lack thereof.
I have my hands full trying to live a loving life without advising anyone else how to live theirs. Which is probably why I've had such close, lifetime friendships with people who are Atheists. That said, my faith is a part of who I am as a human being, just as my age is, and the part of the country I grew up. It would be artifical for me to feel that I have to completely deny part of who I am to be welcome in here. That would be denying myself of friendships because of difference in faith.

And for the record, I don't think that there are many people who find George Bush and the Christian Right more offensive than I do. The Christian Right doesn't speak for any Christians that I know.

As for the salutation "Be Blessed" each of us has the choice of accepting it in the spirit in which we perceive that it is being offered. Someone could say "Screw you," and you'd accept it as a loving comment if you knew the person. In the same way, someone could say "God Bless You," and you'd think to yourself, "Yeah, RIIIIIGHT! because you know the insincerity of the "blessing."

Here on Mudcat, most of us are these funny little black letters of the alphabet arranged in a semi-coherent order. We aren't flesh and blood, and we have a very one-dimensional relationship with each other. I spend as much time reading between the lines as I do reading what is posted. That means that, while I am in complete disagreement with Bill D (as an example) I respect and like him, and would enjoy knowing him in 3-D.

Much is in how we perceive the motivations of others. And sadly, too often, what WE carry within us colors our perceptions so radically that we only see a reflection of ourselves.

I have no problem with people believing differently than I do. Or even thinking that I'm full of it. Or delusional. But, I'm all for a little more respect and civility on mudcat. It seems to be in increasingly short supply around here.

As Leadbelly sang, "We're in the same boat, Brother."

May good things come to all..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:50 PM

S'ok Amos. I've said enough stuff I wish I hadn't in these threads over the years.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:44 PM

Georgiansilver, thanks for wishing goodness for me! I choose to receive your good wishes in a positive way. I wish you the same! KT

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:36 PM

Interesting you should mention Friar Tuck Martin. A colleague and I are hoping to set up a Robin Hood theme park in Lincolnshire within the next two years..all being well. I suppose I could wear the Friar Tuck robe but exposing myself is something I have never considered.
Poor contribution from you Martin just to be No 100 on the thread.
Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:17 PM

Does Georgiansilver expose himself to choir boys from his friar tuck robe?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 12:31 PM

Jeri:

Ya know what?

I think you're right.

I shoulda kept my mouth shut.

Next time, maybe I will be better, eh?

AS

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 12:14 PM

GS...we have had many religious wars over the years on mudcat. At this point in our history, we all seem to know what each other's take on religion is and we try to keep the prosletizing to a minimum.   The unwritten rule is to be modest or respectful and civil about one another's individual belief or non-belief. You would be well-advised to work harder on this approach.

(For history on how I have stepped into it with both feet, read our war about Catholicism after the priest scandals began to surface. I offended dozens of catholics with my remark about the catholic church going bankrupt.)

For your information, I am a traditional Episcopalian with little or no interest in the bible or modern interpretations of biblical stories. I don't believe in a virgin birth and I think many churches have commandeered the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth for their own narrow-minded and oppressive purposes. I only attend my mother's church for the most part, and to me religion is about helping other people.That's how I practice my "religion."

When I hear other people say "I am a Christian" I always wonder what that implies. I am a Christian because I am an Episcopalian. It seems to me that "I am a Christian" implies that your brand of Christianity is somehow better than all the other denominations.
Sanctimonious posts also draw a great deal of negative feedback, in case you haven't noticed.

In my opinion, Jerry Rasmussen has the best approach to his religious beliefs. He can blab on and on about his religious activities and ideas and it nevers sounds sanctimonious or defensive. He just sounds like a good soul whose light shines on everyone equally. Frankly, most of our more religious members have found a way to fit in or have learned to live and let live. Good luck

harp

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 12:12 PM

Quibbling about words...
Don't we have enough stress with what's going on in the world these days that we need to get upset about somebody wishing us well using the wrong words as well? Or maybe that's the whole problem. It doesn't take much to set people off, here or elsewhere. Doesn't take much to excuse jumping on somebody for a perceived slight. Lots of folks are mad at something we feel pretty helpless to do anything about.

I wrote a really long post last night, flaming people for being hostile and petty, and making Mudcat somewhere I wasn't sure if I wanted to be. I didn't send it. Today, I realize I was being just as hostile and petty as the folks I was pissed off about. Fighting fire with fire is only an option when you don't mind losing everything you're going to burn.

I have enough things to worry about to get my panties in a bunch because someone used terminology I don't care for to wish me well. (and no, 'Be Blessed' doesn't bother me. If it did, 'Blessed Be' would bother me just as much. They mean the same damned thing, without the stuff between the lines.) It's especially ironic that this should happen in a thread about 'respect and civility'. It's not 'Live and let live, as long as you do it the way I think you should'. Oy.

Don't MAKE me post "There's a Bug Up My Butt" again!

Jeri

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:27 AM

BillD...thanks for all you've said.

JennyO,thanks for pointing out the difference between the two.

Jeri, LMAO with tears because it is so true AND sad.

"Be Blessed" rankles, imo, because it is a command. It irks the same way as "God bless you." Way back when, we'd figured out, in the interest of respect and civility, that if one wanted to say such it would be better to say "May your god bless you." The pagan "Blessed be" seems much more amenable than the GS command, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 11:26 AM

You too JennyO. Our journeys of self discovery are not always pleasant and not always a joy but sometimes we meet people who we feel comfortable with and accept at face value. I have some admiration for you already as you may have restored faith in a thread which was suggesting Respect and civility but was degenerating in places. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 10:46 AM

Be Blessed and Blessed Be are not the same thing. Blessed Be is something that pagans often say to each other. I usually only say it to people who I know are pagan.

I see nothing wrong at all with Georgiansilver putting Be Blessed on the end of his posts. Like Little Hawk, there was a time when I might have been annoyed by it, when the memory of being humiliated and figuratively beaten over the head with religion as a child was more recent. I had been the victim of many so-called Christians, my family in particular, whose holier-than-thou attitude made my childhood pretty miserable.

But that was a long time ago. Through a long journey of self-discovery where I was able to start to identify and feel comfortable with my own brand of spirituality, I have also developed a lot more tolerance of differences. Everyone has to find their own path. My feelings are that life is too short to go looking for hidden agendas and other things that make your experience negative. I prefer to take people at face value and not impose judgment.

As far as I can see, Georgiansilver is just expressing his satisfaction with his life and extending his feelings of goodwill to other people here. I won't feel belittled at all if he says it to me.

So Georgiansilver, Be Blessed.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 10:06 AM

Dear Guest:

Although you DO sound like a spelling nazi, you are forgiven, for you are part of the DIvine Duality of Golden Curves. All mankind shares this miracle and when this is universally recognized, there will be peace on Earth. Stay in touch.

B. Breast,

Brother Duophile Fixation, Assistant Curator
Temple ofthe Golden Globes

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 07:19 AM

I hate to sound like a spelling Nazi, but, there are three forms of the word "TO", and when you mix them up, it is confusing to the reader.
TO, preposition
TWO,more than one, less than three
TOO, also

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 07:14 AM

We all have a cross to bear. hehehe

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 05:24 AM

Pogp, didn't you mean

{OB

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:55 AM

I'm with Clint,

I thought that GS was Pagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Jul 04 - 01:12 AM

Knew you would get here eventually Martin. Yes, being Christian has not stopped me getting Haemmoroids! One of my everyday problems to face in life as with all of us. Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:33 PM

Hi all, time to check in on this!

What can I say? Georgiansilver is obviously one tight-ass with hemmoroids that bump each other.

Be ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 10:13 PM

I think I first heard "Blessed be" used by Wiccans. Until this thread came out I thought G.Silver was some kind of New Reformed Pagan. Just goes to show.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 09:17 PM

Yhank you, Amos, for we ARE in the north.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:51 PM

We of the Temple are highly sensitive to the duality of all beauty, Sir Hawk. But although we are sensitive to duality, we are not in favor of polarization -- our favorite slogan is "Keep them all pointing North".

B Breast,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:32 PM

Another thing to remember, Amos, is that while it is always good to have a point it is even better to have two of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 08:08 PM

From Georgiasilver,

I would like to see some people on Mudcat showing respect and civility for each other...that's the message.

OK, You are lecturing the Mudcat on civility. Good luck to you, I hope your Faith proves to be strong enough for you to be example you hold yourself to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Pogo
Date: 24 Jul 04 - 07:52 PM

{OD {OD {OP