BS: Respect and civility

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 21 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM

There is no God!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 12:45 AM

I'm always willing to accept prayers and blessings provided with good intent - other than those to force me to change my Religious Beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jul 04 - 12:05 AM

Well you can wish me a blessing any old time. A nice lady did that for me last year and things worked out pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 08:24 PM

See ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM

Respect and Civility is a thing of the distant past I believe. Am I just imagining things? Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:24 PM

I'm outta here, meself. Too hurtful in here. Maybe it's time we all give this a rest.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 07:01 PM

For me...sticking to the music threads might be a good idea. There seems to be a much more pleasant class of people there...whether Christian or non-Christian....Respect and Civility costs nothing except a little give....Best wishes and Be Blessed all of you,

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 06:50 PM

Well good for you Martin. You must feel really pleased with yourself. No you are not bitter...just playing silly games.
May the Lord truly pour out his Blessings on you for being such a great guy. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 06:16 PM

We are all so blessed here!

Big Mick, I'm not bitter! I found the Be blessed thing annoying. still do. Just look at how much mileage you all got to occupy your day with this topic of discussion. I've not censored anyone. I don't run this forum I simply voiced my opinion that it's far from the way normal people converse with each other. But, I am not a Christian, either. In many ways, grateful for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 05:05 PM

I'm blessed by knowing you as a kind and generous man Mike. You have my wholehearted permission to sign off 'Be Blessed' when you answer any of my posts, I take it as an honour.
John :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 04:42 PM

..........people are the same, wherever you go...There's good and bad..in everyone. Learn to live...and learn to give each other...what we need to survive..etc etc Great song, Great singer.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: jimmyt
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:35 PM

Exhausting as the whole thread is, I think StellaHarmony is the most clever line in the fray. Be Blessed, Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:25 PM

I am not involved with any religious group - I have my own take on spirituality that I will discuss if asked but which is personal to me.

I don't see GS's 'be blessed' as an insult to me and find it rather refreshing that, in what can be a very self interested, materialistic and cynical world there are still people who have enough simple faith to want to try to follow the teachings of Christ and sufficient belief in their fellow man to try to thnk the best of them at all times. It makes a change from those who seem to have to put down and insult others for no apparent reason. I know which of the two types I would prefer to meet.

I'll go along with Jenny - keep using be blessed GS - it's part of who you are and I will miss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: weerover
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:15 PM

I continue to be bemused about how someone can be *offended* by the phrase in question. If they don't particularly believe in the concept of blessings, why is it not simply neutral or meaningless to them, unless directed deliberately to (say) a committed atheist and intended sarcastically or maliciously?

wr.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 02:02 PM

No, I refrain from obsenity when I discover that it offends people. It really is not that complicated. If something you say offends, stop saying it. Unless you are specifically trying to drive home a point. In that case, persist but accept the slings and arrows that will undoubtedly come your way and don't whine about it.

Others' feelings deserve our respect. We show our civility by respecting their wishes. And that goes directly to the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:52 PM

Somehow, this whole conversation has become exhausting. Who would think that wishing all good things for someone could be so volitile?
I don't know, Mick. I can see your point, and I guess that you can see mine, in not signing off with something that is bothersome to an individual. I can see your point too, that if someone is just signing off generally, they should have a right to sign off in any way they want. Maybe I'm wrong on this one. It wouldn't be the first time. In the long run, all we can do is govern ourselves as best we can.

Sometimes, I want to throw my hands up in frustration at this place. You can use pretty much any obscenity you want in here and people defend your right to say it. Too often, those same people who will defend your right to use obscenities are the first to say you have no right to use words of praise. Funny thing too is that "Spirituality" is o.k., but "Religion" isn't around here. "God" is the ultimate four letter word for many people in here. I try to be sensitive to others and adjust my language accordingly.

But sometimes you can't win for losing.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:46 PM

This is a sad day.

I have had my problems with GS, which I've noted in another thread and have also said it is my personal issues that have something to do with it.

I haven't said anything about the "Be Blessed" sign off, simply because since it was a sign off, in my mind not meant to be directed at particular persons, just as a sign off. I've been hurt by Chirstians time and time again, but I try to accept each perosn on their own basis, regardless of whether they're Christian or not. I also know several very good Christians, I hope that GS is among those that I know at Mudcat.

I am Pagan and Unitarian Universalist - which is something that I don't hide, but also don't make a big deal about. But following those two faiths, it would be easy to start signing off:

Be Blessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: saulgoldie
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:33 PM

Well, for as muddled as this relatively simple notion has been made...If someone told me that they found something I said offensive and asked me not to say it, I would repsect their wishes, even if I knew in my heart that I was somehow "right." It matters not what the nature of whatever is being said is. What matters is that I respect their wishes. I think the fact that in this case it is of a religious nature is causing a lot of people a lot of unnecessary confusion over the root issue of respecting others.

Tragically, this happens all the time when religion is involved. If you simply remove religion from the equation and diagram the argument using (some phrase) in the place of "be blessed" then the core issue becomes easier to see.

Any competent relationship therapist will agree with me on this. "But, Honey, when I say, 'I really liked the way you set out that meal tonight,' I didn't mean that I see you as subservient, even if that is the way you perceived it."

Do I want to die on this hill? Um, well, no. But this is a very basic point from which emminate faulty world views. So it is not unimportant.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Nerd
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:24 PM

Hey, Mooman, precisely my point on 26 Jul 04 - 02:00 PM, and with the same example, too!

Peace,

Nerd

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:09 PM

Thanks for the blessing, Jerry. I guess what I have a tremendous disagreement with here is this. There is a huge difference between a personal response to a specific person in a conversation and a general closing to my posts. I feel as though GS is being attacked not for what he says, but for who he is. And that is wrong. His "Be Blessed" is a very neutral comment that could be used by folks of any stripe from Atheist to Fundie whatever. To attack, or criticize, or in your and my case, to fail to defend seems incongrous to me within the realm of respectful and civil behaviour.

Know that I have great respect for you, Jerry. I just disagree mightily on this issue. I apologize for singling you out as I did. But this troubles like few things have here.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 01:01 PM

Sorry you feel that way, Mick: I think that it's clear that I don't have a problem with blessing people. Or having people bless me. But, when someone tells me that something is upsetting to them, I generally speaking don't do it any more, if I see some way to remain true to who I am and can express myself in some other way. I have no way of knowing whether they are really upset, or just trying to be asses. There are both kinds of people responding to this thread, I think. Probably the closest friend I have ever had in my life is Art Theime, who is an Atheist. I love Art and respect him very much.
I know that he has personally been seriously hurt by people claiming to be Christians, and so I correspond with him differently than I would to my Christian (and God-believing) friends. I have friends who have been cruelly mistreated in the name of Jesus Christ. My faith is very simple. God is love. I try to respond to people and treat them out of love, as best I can. If someone is uncomfortable with my Christianity, I try to be sensitive of that. If they say that something I am saying or doing is bothering them, I'd try to talk about it, understand why, and then find a different way to communicate with them.

In a public forum like this, there's no way to know the sincerity of people. Some, like Harmony Stella reek bitterness, and are here to
offend people. That's an easy call. But, there are others in this forum like Art and Bill D who I have a great respect for.

When a posting is directed to someone specific, as I am directing this to you, Mick, I feel I can say "May Christ's face shine upon you" and not offend you. If I post a message to others in here who I know don't believe in God, or Christ, I would not use that closing. Or even Be Blessed. Why close a message to someone by using a phrase that you know will be offensive?

So, Be Blessed, Mick, and Jimmy and Little Hawk and ColK and Khandu and those who share my faith. For all my other friends, I send all of my good wishes.

Be Blessed, Mick

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: mooman
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:36 AM

I also agree with Big Mick.

GS should be able to sign himself as he wants. I see no sign at all of proselytizing in "Be Blessed". "Blessings" are by no means the sole domain of Christianity.

I am a Buddhist and usually sign myself out with "Peace" and have so for a long time. I could therefore probably equally be accused of proselytizing although Buddhism is a strictly non-proselytizing, non-evangelizing practice. (I am probably opening myself up to some attack by even saying this but don't give a fig!)

On that note, I also support what Mary Garvey said. A little more tolerance and a little less judgementalism would probably not be amiss.

Peace,

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:24 AM

Or little girls going to school in Belfast. Right on, friend Mary.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: mg
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 11:19 AM

This has really been scary to watch. They will go after you at some point for wearing a crucifix, like they have gone after little girls in France for wearing a headscarf, like they have gone after Sikhs for wearing a turban. It is mass selfishness and we are on a slippery slope to God knows what. Whatever God, goddess, you might wish to assume or not if that is your preference. The all too easily offended are tyrants. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:53 AM

I agree with what Big Mick said at 9.56am. The way it has gone here makes me very sad. What's the matter with you people? What a strange thing to feel offended by! I'm not even a Christian, and I can take it in the spirit in which it was intended.

As I said to you earlier in the thread, Georgiansilver, you can say Be Blessed to me any time. In fact, I will feel honoured if you do.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:35 AM

I simply think you are wrong, jimmyt, and I will tell you why.

GS has been the subject of attack here from a bitter man in Chicago. Once upon a time I welcomed this person here. I regret that. This person is a destructive bully. When intellect fails, he falls into the old "calling names" tactic. GS has had threads started about him, been attacked, and unfortunately he responded. Finally, the attack centered on his beliefs.

I reread the opening posts before I ever responded here. What I saw was a man who was explaining why he responds the way he does. He was not asking for guidance as you suggest. He was simply setting up the predicate that says we should have respect for one anothers views. Bill D, a friend of mine, suggested that he was proselytizing. News flash for you, folks. Proselytizing would be trying to convince you that his way was best and you needed to follow it. Here is what he actually said.

I am a Christian and intend to treat all I meet with respect and civility but sometimes fail to do this as a result of a human failure.... which is not taking time to think!!!. I love all Gods kids(even those who don't know Him personally) and think that each of us....however brought into the world...however brought up...should be given the benefit of the doubt. You can chastise me for my beliefs.....you can call me whatever names you wish (as Martin does often) but nothing will change my way.
Respect and civility for all....even those who like to think of themselves as my enemies.

That is not proselytizing, that is a simple statement of the basis for his posts, a defense in the face of numberous attacks, and a request. That request is for one of the things that made Mudcat what it is today. That thing is a respect for one anothers views, and being civil.

We have many pagans on this forum. Many of them are my friends. Not once have I heard them chastised for using the phrase "Blessed Be", or heard feminists chastised for spelling with a "y" instead of an "e". Nor should I. That is a simple statement of the belief system from which they operate. I respect others beliefs. If GS, or any of the others were pro-actively trying to use this place as a forum for trying to gain converts, I would be with you. They are not. They are simply using terminology that accurately portrays who they are. That is not wrong.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: jimmyt
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:20 AM

Mick, I certainly did not mean to force anything on GeorgianSilver with my posts. In fact, if you read from the beginning, it seems to me that Georgian silver was saying in so many words, what am I doing that is bothering folks. I would have never made any suggestion unless he had requested one. I know Jerry pretty well and I believe he feels the same. I think you may be perceiving a conspiracy that does not exist. Certainly on the part of most of the folks who have responded to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 10:04 AM

Big Mick. Thank you and I appreciate your input, however, I am not here to anooy or upset folk, just to be part of it and enjoy chat..especially the music side. If it oppresses some folk that I use Be Blessed then I can change and have no problem with it. I accept that some have been manipulated and cajoled into thinking the way they do..but I am also not in the business of antagonising if I can help it...at least not deliberately.
Some will have great delight in my change of heart and others will be saddened by it..but it will not pre-occupy me. Those who were...how can I say... "responsible"(if that is the word) for my change of heart will either find something else to challenge me for, or have a go at someone else because that is the way they operate. Who are we to say if that is right or wrong.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:56 AM

This is the first time in my long association with my beloved Mudcat that I have been ashamed of the folks here. And Jerry Rasmussen, you of all people I would have expected to defend this. At this moment I am witnessing the worst of herd mentality. There was absolutely nothing in the closing of "Be Blessed" that could possibly be construed as offensive by any right thinking person. This is nothing more than a bunch of folks looking for a cause. The worst part of it is that you are being manipulated and aren't seeing it. Be assured that there is a person who gets their jollies out of sitting at a keyboard and laying out bait and watching you all dance, and then chuckling. So I suppose that if folks find it offensive that I wear a crucifix, I should take it off?   

Georgiansilver, it is a shame that you even responded to this nonsense. I would have suggested that you ignore it. Sharing what makes you tick is not wrong, in fact it is noble. Proselytizing is another matter, but unless I missed it, you never did that.

I wish I could offer "All the best" at this moment, but somehow I just can't find it in me.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: el ted
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:40 AM

That last post should have been in red

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: el ted
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:30 AM

If a muslim came on here and offered you all a fraternal greeting, "peace be upon you" or whatever, I'd be you would all keep stum wouldn't you? That'll teach him to be a christian!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 09:05 AM

I have just one thing to say to every last one of you who finds himself in a state of mental discomfort when reminded of his own inner traumas, prejudices, and other sore points bubbling up from the subconscious...and decides, thereupon, that someone ELSE is to blame for it and must be controlled accordingly:

BE BLESSED!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: jimmyt
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 08:56 AM

By the way, GS, I am personally not offended so you may offer your blessings to me if you wish, as I do you, albiet silently. I am sure lots of people would feel likewise.

Lets see, you could get a catalog of the blessers and the non blessers, or have someone write a program to automatically default.........a blessing default.......yeah, I think you can make a million on this if you work it just right, and get Bill Gates involved. grin

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,Oh yeah,Like I want 2225 Pm's about this
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 08:49 AM

Congratulations Mudcatters

On having sucessfully censored GS.Once again the right to free speech in an open forum prevails.Well,atleast for the likes of Martin Gibson.You folks should be proud.
Who can we shout down next fellow brownshirts?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 06:42 AM

wr - I agree

GS - Be Blessed

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 05:52 AM

I find it difficult to see why anyone would be offended at Georgiansilver's (now former) sign-off. If you believe in blessings you might well be gratified; if not, then at worst it is surely only useless and not malign?

wr.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: el ted
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 05:11 AM

CHEER UP FOR GOD'S SAKE! MAYBE A POST IN ORANGE WOULD HELP?
BE BLESSED.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 04:48 AM

Incidentally. jimmyt and others latterly on this thread...It was a pleasure to be asked in a manner which in itself respects and is civil.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 Jul 04 - 04:37 AM

O.K. I have not gone out of my way to offend people on here but seem to offend some, as do many others(some of whom intend to). I bow to those of you who are unhappy with my sign off and humbly withdraw it. It seems sad to me that I have to, because it was a sincere wish for good to all of you...however, if it is not in keeping then consider it closed as far as the Cat is concerned
Best wishes,

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 11:37 PM

Children:
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good night
Marta:
I hate to go and leave this pretty sight

Children:
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, adieu
Friedrich:
Adieu, adieu, to yieu and yieu and yieu

Children:
So long, farewell, au revoir, auf wiedersehen
Liesl:
I'd like to stay and taste my first champagne

Children:
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, goodbye
Kurt:
I leave and heave a sigh and say goodbye -- Goodbye!
Brigitta:
I'm glad to go, I cannot tell a lie
Louisa:
I flit, I float, I fleetly flee, I fly
Gretl:
The sun has gone to bed and so must I

Children:
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, goodbye
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye

Guests:
Goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 10:20 PM

Yeah Georginsilver. How about something like, "bye now."

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:55 PM

And Georgian: With all due respect, is there a reason why you are so adamant about ending every post with "Be Blessed?" What's the point, if you are offending some people? There are other ways to sign off.

I guess I shouldn't be critical though.

I always sign off

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:52 PM

Good post, jimmy. If some people tell you that they find something you repeatedly say offensive, then it seeems like the civil thing to do is to find another positive way to express yourself. Saying, that you shouldn't be offended is kinda missing the point. Like when someone does something to hurt you and you say it's their fault for being too sensitive.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. And a mudcat.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: jimmyt
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 09:05 PM

Georgian Silver, I have read this entire thread trying to get the real gist of your original premise, ie respect and civility. Then I went back to your original post. I have read ad nauseum threads where you and Martin Gibson were flailing away at one another for no apparent reason. At each post, you say, Be Blessed.   

I will have to tell you that in my opinion,if you are sincere and really mean that you would like to treat and be treated with respect and civility, you would be wise to consider that your sign off seems to be offensive and self promoting to many people. If you continue to do this after they have mentioned it, it seems rude and inconsiderate. Religion completely out of the formula. This is my opinion. I sincerely hope that you consider this objectively and not in the manner of religiosity that some would use to circumvent the issue.

There are many Christians in this website that are respected for their opinions, as well as Jews, Pagans and a wide diversity of other persuasions. Most of them have managed to co-exist here without ruffling any feathers. They do this by avoiding things that others find to be offensive. Again, you seem to be a fine fellow, and those who know you sing your praises highly. I hope you are not ofended by my post, as it is intended to be my take on this, not a personal affront.   jimmyt

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 08:20 PM

Good point, Mick--and even more to the point, KimC-- "Be Blessed" is an odd place to draw the line in the sand--

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 01:07 PM

Right on, Big Mick. Yours is the voice of common sense speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:55 PM

Let me ask you all this one question:

Is this the hill you want to die on?

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: el ted
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:44 PM

I can do it in a different colour if you like johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 12:41 PM

Stop it Ted, you naughty naughty person! (ROTFL)

Big Mick - at last, someone with more than one gram of common sense! You are absolutely, 100% correct. It's sad that these moaners have nothing better on which to vent their miserable spleens.

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Respect and civility
From: el ted
Date: 27 Jul 04 - 11:22 AM

Hi there, nothing of import to add to what is a heavy and depressing thread.I just thought a bit of red lettering would liven things up a bit