BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: pdq
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:52 PM

The reason for abusive attacks is politics. One side believes they can shout down any origional or non-conforming opinions.
Those shouted down fight back or leave the forum.

Blaming the people who fight back is kinda like blaming a robery victim for pulling a gun.

If people would show discipline and not start invective-laden threads or post hateful attacks on people who are not here to defend themselves, the riot would slow down.

Somebody who has to say "I Hate Bush!" 20 times a day is someone with severe mental problems.

Say what you have to say . Say It once. Period.

I think each member, other than the one who started the thread sould post once. That means think out what you have to say, post, then move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:53 PM

Mr Villan Sir...Where I agree in principle to your suggestions being the right approach in "the ideal world", there are a number of reasons why it could not work. Policing(the number of postings on here is vast). administration....takes too much time to organise let alone put into practice. Too many of the "nasties" would not give up but likely play "hit and run" on a number of threads....usually one suspects as GUEST...these people will always try it on.
I would suggest that some are wasting too much time on flamers and trolls instead of getting on with the serious stuff.
Music is my chief reason for being on here..I read a lot and add to some threads but for extra recreation I come to the BS threads for a bit of fun.....My idea of fun does not always concur with others but there ya go...I still have my fun.
Principles are great but not always practical.
My vote is that we all abstain and get on with things as they are. We all have choices!
Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: PoppaGator
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM

NO

No censorship, and no fretting about what you wish you hadn't read. What you don't like, please ignore. Shaddup already! (Both "sides.")

An absense of scolding responses, if we could manage it, might very well dissuade the flamers from fanning their fires.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:03 PM

Quis custodiat ipsos custodes

Anyway it isn't our call.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:07 PM

Pdq, I feel the same way about invective-laden threads as I do about bin-laden threads.

Blow them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:08 PM

Its very interesting to see the differing viewpoints. I guess there is no easy solution.

Quote from Joe
It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible.
End of quote

I agree with Joe personally - by far the best way to deal with it, however some members can't seem to do that and get drawn in to the point where they can't stop.

So, I am going to go to bed and enjoy a good nights sleep :-) Hope you all do as well :-)

Thanks for all your viewpoints even though YES and No was all that was needed. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:15 PM

"Blaming the people who fight back is kinda like blaming a robery victim for pulling a gun."

Responding in kind to insults or hurtful remarks in a thread is in no way analogous to a situation where your life is being treatened. It merely requires some self-control. Sometimes quite a lot of self control.

But hitting back in kind is completely self-defeating. You aren't shooting them or hurting them in any way, you are actually rewarding the attacker, making them feel good. You are making them them feel they've got through to you, and been noticed, and that has to make them more likely to carry on in this way.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:21 PM

Must be time for a Mudcat therapy thread.

Come on now everyone, let's all join together for {{{{{{BIG HUGS}}}}}}

There now, don't we all feel better?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:26 PM

I am amending my response. To quote BillD: 'yes' to the concept
'no' to the details, which are much too complex to administer easily

just a requirement that 'guests' must choose a name, even if they don't register, would satisfy me.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:30 PM

Aw, thanks for the hug. Could you scratch my left shoulder blade a little while you're doing it?
Aaaaahhh!!!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:38 PM

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

Leave the GUESTS out of this. There are more rude registered folks than rude GUESTS...

NO!

NO!

NO!

NO!

Censorship by any other name is still censorship. Heck, I'd rather go play somewhere else because of rude folks than because of censorship...

NO!

NO!

No, no, a thousand times no!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:42 PM

Bill D - I hope you realize I was being sarcastic with my "delete this thread" comment! I was just trying to point out that Mudcat enabled This Villian to start a thread like this. IF This Villian's wish came true, it would be very easy to have a thread like this removed.

Censorship, in any form, is wrong. What was suggested here is nothing more than censorship. Self-censorship is probably the most dangerous kind.

If you can't stand the heat, find another sandbox to play in.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Janie
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:59 PM

Uh....This would be an opinion poll as opposed to a vote. Mudcat is NOT a democracy.

But since you asked, my opinion is No!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:47 PM

yes, Ron..I have seen enough of your posts to realize you knew what you were posting...*smile*...I was sorta complementing the cleverness.

(I do still favor the sort of 'censorship' that removes personal attacks & stalking, spam, threats...etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:14 PM

That's a pretty damn long list there, BillD. Are you afraid of the bogeyman too?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

" Censorship, in any form, is wrong. "

Somer people are are so full of crap!

EVERYTHING is censored in some way or another....

When these people say NO Censorship, what they really mean is no one is to censor THEM...

What frigg'n ever...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:58 AM

"When these people say NO Censorship, what they really mean is no one is to censor THEM... "

You do have a good point there Clinton...

I remember Lenny Bruce's routine on Police in Our Society. :-)

I am quite happy with removal of Spam, Porn, vindictive abuse, and some similar things (someone has to clean the shit off the floor in the toilets) - but willy nilly editing of anything else is a bit much.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:05 AM

Actually, we don't have a Vote...so I think I shall only be in the chat room for quite a while. Might read some threads, but doubt if I'll post to any. Sorry, I'm sick of it just now, but not much I can do. It comes in cycles. This is a bad one. See ya down the road sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:48 AM

No.

I hate to see the likes of Jerry leaving because of the behaviour of a few but don't really think that censorship is the way to go. IMHO the best way to deal with trolls and flamers is to ignore them. If you get a personal attack take a very deep breath and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Cruiser
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 01:55 AM

Yes! No! Maybe...

(I'll coin this type of reply as "The Kerry Answer") Oh the days of the Kerry Answer, oh the days of the flip-flops too… Sung to the tune "The Kerry Dancers"

I finally guess I should say No! I think, even though I prefer required membership for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:00 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 02:42 AM

And a resounding NO for me too, for many reasons which I do not have time to go into here. Actually, my blood ran cold at the thought of some of those suggestions, and I could see us going down that slippery slope that Shambles talks about.

Joe Offer is right. We need to moderate ourselves, and for those of us who really can't, there is always the delete button. Mudcat has gone through bad periods like this before and recovered and it will again, but to implement those changes would take the heart out of it and it wouldn't be Mudcat any more.

Again - NO NO NO

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:10 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: OldPossum
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 03:57 AM

No. I agree with Deckman.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Gervase
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:43 AM

No.
Most of the stuff that really gets on my chimes is posted by members, while guests often post useful stuff or questions that bring up some excellent answers and research.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: maggiethecat
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 04:55 AM

Whoops! I'm changing my vote!

I've read all the posts here and now vote "No".

Self censorship is always the best course of action. Maybe it isn't perfect and there will always be those who will test our resolve, but that's also a good test of character.

-maggie

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 05:48 AM

No

"When these people say NO Censorship, what they really mean is no one is to censor THEM... "

When people say YES to censorship, what they mean is - as long it is done to anyone but THEM...

We all have the only EDIT button that is required and if the Orang Utans are not fed - they will starve and be forced to find other feeding grounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:11 AM

No.

1) Virtually all abuse happens on BS threads. Guests, believe it or not, sometimes have worthwhile contributions in music threads.

2) Are you talking about Guest Larry K, or just Guest? Larry K should be able to post.

3) There's a very fine line between heated argument and abuse. I suspect the moderators will not want to step into that quagmire, nor do I blame them.

4) We can be, and to a large extent are, self-policing. I never use bad language and my estimation of a person goes down when they do--I believe it shows a poverty of vocabulary, and possibly of intellect. But though I'm against gutter language, this can be addressed by thread participants, and I do so. We're all adults here, some perhaps at arrested states of development, but we can handle this issue ourselves.

5) Anonymous" Guests" (no handle)----- (in my opinion in BS threads should be labelled "Ghosts"--perhaps this could be suggested)----- provide inadvertent humor by arguing with each other.



It's a wild and wooly forum and better for being that way. The old solution is still the best--if you don't want to read a thread, don't. There are lots of threads I never read. If people are leaving the forum, I'm sorry, but I can't believe it's the music threads. Music is the main focus of the forum, but in BS threads, politics, especially this year, will be a focus. Discussions are not always calm. Nobody need ever read a BS thread so nobody need ever be outraged.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:21 AM

Jim Dixon's post could have been mine.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:32 AM

Villian, Charlton 3 Aston Villa 0, that result last night really was a no,no.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 06:46 AM

Oh the pain hurts :-)

My eyes have turned from Claret and Blue to red and white (or sort of bloodshot) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:13 AM

I've often wondered whether the compromise situation of having BS member only would be an improvement.

Overall though Guests have not managed to upset me but some members have hurt me very deeply. I broke the number 1 rule round here and even though I was completely honest in everything I said (although I don't think my methods were right on reflection), I got accused of all sorts, the best being a PM sent to Pip by Susan telling her what I was like - Pip could not believe what she had read and was so horrified she showed me.

I choose to post as a guest now not to be underhanded or to cause trouble - I try to be polite and construcive in whatever contributions I still make. Although there remain many people I have great respect for, I simply no longer want to be a Mudcatter as I don't belive in the double standards and 2 facedness that exist with some, probably few but vocal ones, within the ranks.

I didn't stop long at the Yorkshire gathering this year for similar reasons. I'd had a couple of people emailing me asking if I would attend and can't deny that having transported sorcha up there (the only reason for the journey) I did enjoy meeting Micca again, seeing Catsphiddle, etc.. I didn't want to stop there as I felt ultimately at some time my position would have been compromised, perhaps even by someone meaning well, in such a way that my options would have been either to "confess to telling lies" when I had at least had told the truth or stand ground on what I believe in the full knowledge that I would still therefore be considered a trouble maker and an enemy of Mudcat. It was much easier for me to be polite and enjoy the company for 30 minutes and walk out friends with those present.

When I put that sort of thing in the context of considering that plenty of places like uk.music.folk, rec.music.folk, rec.music.celtic and alt.banjo that I visit at least once a day, have no means of moderation yet never get close to the levels of nastiness achieved here, I do think one question that should be asked is whether or not some of the problems here rather than being Guest creations, are Mudcat creations.

Jon

(who will probably get attacked for this post by those who don't believe some things happen and prefer to live in a non-existant cosy land where everything is idyllic)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:26 AM

Another thing:

As I said, this is a wild and woolly forum. Some of the wildest stuff can also turn abusive. But there are all sorts of unexpected benefits. Abuse can be ignored by everybody and it will go away. But the situation calls forth, from time to time, absolute gems of humor.

Case in point: the recent thread "Never Mind Hell and Halifax"

Let me quote in full the glorious first posting:



GUEST, Disgusted of Portsmouth
"Never mind hell and Halifax, lord preserve us from the juvenile prurient drivel of the majority of the Hull contingent. I suggest that we start a third section just for residents of the Hull area, then we can all ignore it".

This person has such a flair for the language; the posting is so pithy. I laugh uproariously every time I see it again.

Why would anybody want to rein in a forum where such creativity is possible, or try to suppress the condition which caused this reaction?   Keep in mind this is a Guest.

Mudcat is probably a better source of humor than anything on television or radio, and it's largely because of its untamed nature.

Ignore Hull? I love reading their postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: fat B****rd
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:39 AM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:39 AM

I think if we remember that Hull Mudcatters mainly follow the rule "tong in cheek"

"Disgusted of Portsmouth" you are welcome to Hull anytime - we will educate you propa like yu no wat I mean

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Davetnova
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 07:48 AM

no

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:44 AM

No - I'll continue to be selective in what I read and even more so in what I respond to!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:46 AM

yes, no, don't know, what do you think guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:49 AM

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Or maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 09:55 AM

LOL Make yer mind up guest or you will dissapear up your own backside soon :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:23 AM

Well, as you can see, there are conflicting opinions. Some people want one thing, and some want the complete opposite.

Hardly a strictly conducted poll and the answer rather depends on the question asked and no, this is not a democracy. However there is little point in the exercise if you are are going to ignore the result and place your own interpretion of what it means.

To date - I make it that the 'some' that answered YES was 5.
                                        the 'some' that answered NO was 37.

Pretty close run thing - I agree......

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:53 AM

Don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 10:58 AM

There endeth the Poll. Well done the NO voters. It was democratic, so it is basically leave as is. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:07 AM

Villan,

as Shambles has remarked correctly it depends upon the question asked, so many who share your worries may have voted no nevertheless for a variety of reasons.

Had you asked for a vote for Jon's idea I would have voted 'yes'.
Had someone asked for a vote about BWL's position, I would have voted 'no'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:44 AM

Villian - even if the numbers were reversed in the poll, that would not have changed anything.   As I said earlier, the fact that you were able to start and continue a thread like this proves how open this forum is. If there were Moderators as you suggested, a poll like this would have been deleted immediately.

I don't think people appreciate the freedom that we have here thanks to people like Joe and Max. They don't have to! They can easily make this as restricted as they like. I thank them for that.

I think some take the mantle of being a "Mudcatter" way too seriously. These posts are meant for fun. If some is really that upset by the postings they read here, they have bigger problems that seriously require help.   

If you don't like someone and leave, that is your choice.   You can't make this an exclusive country club, which is what the censorship would have created. Sure we would like a place to go where everyone gets along, but to create such a place eliminates many freedoms.

In everyday life we run across people who are just as nasty and abusive as the few that cause problems here. We can deal with it in various ways, including running away. We can also consider the source and make ourselves better for it.

Enough of my soapbox. I just had to get it off my chest. I'm glad Mudcat allows me the freedom to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 11:47 AM

LOL. As if you can declare a subject closed and ripe for analysis, here in Mudcat threads! A lot of Catters are not here daily, and before the thread falls off the daily list they may weigh in as well.

All this thread "proves" is that an inflammatory thread title can get a lot of quick action-- sometimes before people have actually thought about the topic!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:09 PM

As I said earlier, the fact that you were able to start and continue a thread like this proves how open this forum is. If there were Moderators as you suggested, a poll like this would have been deleted immediately.

Ron, there are volunteer moderators here, and reading between the lines a little - what Joe was saying in his post here was, as there are some for and some against - that he will carry on doing exactly what he wants to, which is what they would have done anyway.

I don't think people appreciate the freedom that we have here thanks to people like Joe and Max. They don't have to! They can easily make this as restricted as they like. I thank them for that.

The freedom that Max (the site owner) allows is certainly appreciated very much by me although many obviously do not agree. But he does deserve all of our thanks for creating this forum for us. As for Joe, (a volunteer) I feel that he is doing a pretty good job on his own of eroding that freedom....

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wilco
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:12 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: s&r
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

100

No