BS: The jihad must be stopped

Subject: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 09:41 PM

I watched part of a unsettling documentary today on HBO about how Arab children go to school in Gaza and that their role in life is the goal of jihad.

Very unsettling.

Self esteem at it's worst. It starts with how Arab women are treated.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 12:44 PM

Not sure if this type of documentary does anything to help MG! I'm not saying it ain't true, I'm sure it is, but you only see part of the picture. Yes there are places that teach that dying in a jihad is the only way to get to heaven but there are christian and jewish places just as bad! I was in your home City (Chicago insn't it?) a few weeks back and was handed a piece of paper by a very pleasent looking old black man on the street. It was the worse piece of inflamatory drivel against islam I have ever read!

I also know a friend of mine was shot at by an Israeli spotter plane while crossing the desert wearing Arab gear (See Ted Edwards , beyond the last oasis to see why!) Are we to conlude from these two episodes that all old black men in Chicago are islam haters or all Israelis shoot arabs on sight?

I guess not. Don't listen to the propaganda. It is Lord Haw-Haw or Tokyo Rose all over again. I know from your Mudcat postings you are intelligent enough to make up your own mind and let other people do the same. Lets try and determine why the media barons like these type of shows instead. Could it be for ratings by any chance? ;-)

Cheers (and Peace!)

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 01:21 PM

Yes, there is plenty going on in the world that sucks bigtime. In the US and everywhere.

What I'd be curious to know is, what is happening these days with the Arab-Israeli peace efforts that were occurring between individuals and settlements? Sometimes it's the small-scale approaches that end up tipping the Big Picture. (Berlin Wall, USSR, apartheid, etc.) Yes these efforts (just listed in parens) also are not yet perfected but they did allow for a lot of change, and IMO THAT degree of change is what will persist and,hopefully take root and grow.

So anyone know, what are the small hopeful signs one can encourage, in the topic posted, before we're swamped past the ability to act while thinking, by all the wrong things happening?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:13 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:20 PM

Peace, I think, can only come when we realize that everyone has value and we use those values for the betterment of all.

Life's difficult enough; why not help one another along the way -- instead of tripping them and falling ourselves?

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:30 PM

The documentary is called Death in Gaza, and it will be shown a a variety of times on over the next weeks on HBO--here is the HBO decription,   which makes it clear that Martin only saw part of it-

                
DEATH IN GAZA
                
In spring 2003, award-winning filmmaker James Miller and reporter Saira Shah, set out to take a first-hand look at the culture of hate that permeates the Middle East. They captured the lives of three Palestinian children growing up in the bullet-riddled streets of Gaza. Although James and Saira had planned to film the lives of Israeli children as well, in the midst of production, Miller was shot to death by an Israeli tank, falling victim to the very conflict he covered.



Thanks for calling our attention to this, Marty--with luck, I'll be able to catch one of the showings--

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:36 PM

Here is the schedule:
                
        DEATH IN GAZA

                
Rated TV14:ÊADULT CONTENT, VIOLENCE

Running Time: 80 minutes

Genre: Documentary

In the spring of 2003, Emmy(R)-winning filmmaker James Miller and his colleague Saira Shah set out to document the lives of three Palestinian children growing up in the bullet-riddled streets of Gaza. The film ends on a day like many other days in the town of Rafah--with death--except that on this day, the fallen victim is Miller himself. This poignant and powerful film is Miller's shocking first-hand look at the culture of hate that permeates the West Bank and Gaza through the perspective of three Palestinian children who have grown up surrounded by messages of hate against Israel--and who have been taught that the greatest glory is to die a martyr.

Actors:

Director(s): JAMES MILLER

        ALL SHOWINGS, HBO/MAX East

                                
        DATE/TIME                        CHANNEL
        ÊTue 8/31 02:00 PM                        HBO SIGNATURE - EAST
        ÊTue 8/31 05:00 PM                        HBO SIGNATURE - WEST
        ÊTue 8/31 11:00 PM                        HBO SIGNATURE - EAST
        ÊWed 9/1 02:00 AM                        HBO SIGNATURE - WEST
        ÊSun 9/5 07:30 PM                        HBO SIGNATURE - EAST
        ÊSun 9/5 10:30 PM                        HBO SIGNATURE - WEST
        ÊTue 9/7 11:30 PM                        HBO2 - EAST
        ÊWed 9/8 02:30 AM                        HBO2 - WEST
        ÊSun 9/12 01:00 PM                        HBO2 - EAST
        ÊSun 9/12 04:00 PM                        HBO2 - WEST
        ÊWed 9/15 08:30 AM                        HBO SIGNATURE - EAST
        ÊWed 9/15 11:30 AM                        HBO SIGNATURE - WEST
        ÊMon 9/20 01:30 PM                        HBO2 - EAST
        ÊMon 9/20 04:30 PM                        HBO2 - WEST

        HBO INFO

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: mg
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

One thing that it seems is necessary if the UN is paying for the schools, which I think they are, is to take control of the curriculum. Inflammatory stuff should not be allowed.

Not long ago us little Catholic children were taught how great it was to be a martyr and we were given more or less training in it. So it at least in current memory is not unique to the Moslem religion. We were supposed to be the passive type of martyr though.

Other things that might help are giving more voice to the Palestinians to address their issues..sometimes just getting it said and knowing that people are listening, even if no action is taken, can help. The young runner at the Olympics is an example. Also as much as we can, we can visit, spend money there etc. I plan to as soon as I possibly can.

And there are charities that can help...sorting them out can be difficult. A group brought Palestinian children right here to the ocean this summer...I was about to send them my check for a teeny little playground (a swing and a dodgeball and a jumproap)...Please pray that I didn't lose the money. I went to my purse to get my AAA card yesterday and it wasn't there. Nor was the card. I am hoping it is somehow in my desk at work. Save the Children does work over there, as did Children International..I sponsored a couple of rotating children in an orthopedic hospital...they at least used to go to "bonebreakers" for medical care and end up worse than with no care so many were in the hospital. It is a sad situation. The jihad must be stopped and we have to look at all sorts of options, certainly including not provoking them further, while maintaining security for Israelis (who should absolutely not be in aggressive settlement mode).

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:52 PM

Yes, I only saw part of it. Came in well in the middle.

Watch this documentary.

It has inspired me to read The Case for Israel
by Alan Dershowitz.

has anyone read this book? Deshowitz is considered to be a brilliant man.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

Here's the Justice for James Miller website:

http://www.justice4jamesmiller.com/home.htm

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:20 PM

At the risk of offending and I offer apologies to anyone who is offended Jihad or holy war by any name or religion is an offense to God in any form. There is nothing holy about war. There are times when it is necessary (WW2) butit is eveil and that will never change. Better we all spend what little time the creator gives us in mending the breeches we have caused between each other. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:27 PM

Why don't you talk to every guy name Mohammad about that?

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM

There are two jihads underway in that region. One is by Palestinians and other Muslims against Israel. The other is by Israel against those Muslims. Both jihads must be stopped. All jihads are, as Neil suggested, unholy, and an offense to God. If God is the Father, as the Jewish faith says and as the Muslim faith says, then all people are God's children, not just some of them. Attempts by one people to suppress, dominate, and/or destroy another people are unholy. Attempts to steal others' land are unholy as well. Land is meant to be shared in brotherhood, not taken by force.

It could be done, but someone has to be willing to extend the hand of peace first...and keep extending it...and keep extending it...as long as it takes. People don't fight because they are strong, they fight because they are afraid.

Gandhi was not afraid, and he won a country and made a world empire back down.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:15 PM

Sorry, Little Hawk, but the little country of Israel is not involved in any kind of Jihad. they are considerably outnumbered and have no intention of teaching their children to strap explosives on themselves. Get real.

The Israeli's are not out to exterminate Moslem infidels. You are definately in la la land. The Moslems are very afraid, very angry, and even their own are afraid of these religious fanatics.

It's why the big Jewish money here in America is on Bush, whether you agree with him or not. Israel never had a better friend. Their very existence is at stake and all of the peace, love, dove shit you are feeding us is not going to change much. The Arabs know they need us because we want their oil. all they have going for them is their oil. When the oil is gone, they are history.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:46 PM

Martin Gibson said, "Sorry, Little Hawk, but the little country of Israel is not involved in any kind of Jihad. they are considerably outnumbered and have no intention of teaching their children to strap explosives on themselves. Get real."

For crying out loud! Israel a) has nuclear weapons; b)has a powerful standing army; 3)has the backing of the US.

I don't object to political discourse being argumentative, but when it's ridiculous someone has to step in.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:53 PM

And to that, pdc, I say thank God.

If it means defending themself, whatever it takes.

So, please step out now.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:35 PM

Bush's loyalties and financial ties are, and always have been, to the oil wealthy Saudis---

the Saudis are Wahhabi(who take a generally dim view of modernization, westernization, and non-believers) , and have many political problems, and have good reason to fear revolution, because the workers in their country, who outnumber them considerably, neither share their wealth, nor even have a say in the government--

Israel has proven a good scapegoat for the Saudis, because of it's seemingly constant violent and extreme reaction to Palestinian insurgency, causes Muslims and Arabs to feel a need for a benefactor and protector against the Zionists--The Saudis are happy to appear as generous and benevolent supports--

There is some feeling that the Saudis are a source for much of the Anti-Semitic propaganda that circulates throughout the Middle East--there is no doubt that State/Saudi media publicize and demonize every action by Israel--there is even a lot of feeling that the Saudis provide money and support for Palestinian terrorism--

Bush certainly expressed no desire to continue the Palestinian Peace Process, when he took office--Furthermore, he has seemed to encourage, rather than discourage, Sharron's most extreme actions--though they seem to provoke even greater violence, and create volumes of ill will in the Muslim world--this, incidentally, shore's up the Saudis position considerably--

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM

Although the Democratic Party has always been the party of choice among Jews since the days of FDR, I think we are starting to see a shift to the right. This is particularly true among Orthodox Jews as opposed to the less observant Conservative & Reform Jews. Many of our Rabbis, who in the past have distanced themselves from politics, are now preaching from the Sabbath pulpit that we as Jews are obligated to show our appreciation to Bush for getting rid of Sadaam and supporting Israel by giving him 4 more years. It is going to be difficult for Kerry to counter this because this time, there is no Lieberman on the ticket. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:01 PM

Well, I think you're a bit partisan on this one, Martin. :-) Me, I like Jews and Muslims pretty much equally well and I would like to see them both stop trying to terrorize and dominate one another. If you think Israel is not on a Jihad of its own, I think you are entirely mistaken. Israel has more firepower and military capability right now than all its Arab foes put together. It is the only country in the region entirely capable of obliterating its opponents' cities and land and destroying their people utterly, and it is the one country which never hesitates to use its military forces in direct and bloody reprisals. Those reprisals ARE terrorism. Terrorism against terrorism. The Palestinians use guerrilla and suicide tactics because they are not strong enough militarily to do anthing effective through conventional tactics in the open...which would be suicidal in any case and would fail utterly. The Israelis use their army and air force openly to do essentially the same kind of things (reprisals for past grievances) because they ARE strong enough to do so.

Prior to Gandhi the social revolutionaries in India also used guerrilla tactics, bombs, and assassination to oppose the British. It did not serve them well. Gandhi's nonviolence won the day.

The Palestinians and Israelis are both committing the following error:

They are doing the same disfunctional thing over and over again and expecting a different result! (and that is the definition of insanity) They are each trying to terrorize the other into submission. It ain't gonna happen.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

And M.Ted is quite correct about the part the Saudis play in all of this, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: mg
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:34 PM

Oh yes indeed those little settler babies are being used as pawns in this war. Who would put families with babies in a war zone? I know land is scarce but still...oh we have these settler babies and now we have to do all this to defend them. Yes, true, but don't put them in harm's way in a provacation to start with. They are being used just as surely as the Palestinian babies. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:08 AM

Correct, Mary. Which is to say, there is deceit and subterfuge on both sides. If one is looking for a white hat and a black hat in this conflict one is looking for a myth, an invention of self-justifying propaganda. Israel and Israel's opponents are both guilty of aggression and terrorism upon one another.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:16 AM

I am wondering how Rabbi Sol feels about the fact that Iran has recently said that may be considering pre-emptive strikes against Israel's nuclear facilities--or, for that matter, how he feels about the fact that much of the interest that the American Religious Right's interest in Israel stems from the fact that they believe that New Testament prophecy will be fullfilled when it is destroyed by the sort of terrible war that will likely result if this happens--

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: GUEST,Ayatollah Kill'emalli
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:23 PM

Yes! America's George Bush and the Israelis have clearly given the green light to the nations of the world, legitimizing the principle of pre-emptive attack on evil, and we in Iran intend to follow their example at the earliest opportunity. In this way the evil people in the World will soon be destroyed and the good people protected. Allah be praised! I would almost admire George Bush and the Israeli leaders for demonstrating this noble principle to us so effectively...were it not for the fact that they are among the evil ones who must die! Ironical, isn't it? God works in strange ways.


(hint: the above is a form of satire...)

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:50 PM

peedeecee:

I agree with you that Israel is capable of defending itself for now.
but it should not require:
a)nuclear weapons - these are only useful if they are never used, a mideast version of MADD, and with terrorists apparently well funded and the raw materials of weaponry ill defended, and the statelessness of terrorists, having nukes will not protect a country from all possible attacks, as the US recently was reminded.
b)powerful standing army - How long should a country have most of its people of military age under arms. Its a powerful economic drain.
c)protection of the United States. A good deal of the rest of the world has shown no such regard. I think Israel would like to get along with the rest of the world, too.

If the people of Israel have no rights themselves, then they also have no motivation for limits on their behavior. If they have the right to their own country, then it involves support for that country's continued existence.

The powerful Arab countries, in particular Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, and the powerful Muslim country of Iran have no recognition of Israel and considerable men at arms and money.

The problem of what to do with a burgeoning Palestinian population has not been effectively addressed by the world. Israel has been allowed, if not required, to resettle Jews from the world over. This displaced population has not been balanced by an acceptance of resettled Islamic and Christian Palestinians by the other Arab countries, except for one country: Israel itself, which has significant Arab and Druse populations.

Israel at present has very very small landmass, and parts of it can be walked across in a day.

In the ideal world, those who are prospective neighbors would be required to sit at table and make some concessions.

My opinion is that not only has Israel made powerful concessions, but has offered to make more. These offers have been assumed to be a starting point, with further concessions which would put the fate of the State at doubt. Israel feels entitled to put self preservation ahead of these interests.

The information I have, not dependent on this forum, is that for a long time Palestinians and the local Arab nations have indeed maintained an educational system which has again and again harped on the evil of the Israelis and the purity of the Arabs. In some cases the schools with these teachings have been UN funded. I have met some American Jews with a reverse psychology, but I have NEVER met an Israeli Jew so constituted.

Anyhow, I am afraid the issue is so polarized nothing will be achieved within this forum and more painful, in the outside world. I think one thing we can all take from this is that Israel has no motivation to behave any differently that it has, and if you give them as Peedeecee does that they have nuclear weapons, and a big standing army , and the support of the UN, then I would also submit that Israel has shown a great deal of restraint, for which I bet they won't get any credit.

In the meantime, over in Darfur in the Sudan, Islamic Arabs are wholesale slaughtering Islamic black Africans, but never fear, the UN is going to fix it.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:52 PM

Hey, how about defining JIHAD before arguing who is or is not on one?

It's amazing how may fights here start because people are defining terms so differently!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

Hey Wiz:

I am no authority, but I believe a jihad is a struggle of religious principle and Islamic origin.

For our purposes I understand it to mean (religiously) motivated violence in the name of Islam, and I'm willing to expand it to be violence in the name of religion even if the base motive is elsewhere. So that for example, a political/religious/social organization such as Hamas might convince people to sacrifice themselves with the promise of an eternal reward in the hereafter, nevertheless the instigators themselves don't make that final jump. And I don't mean to imply that they are or are not cowards, just that as I understand it this is a highly organized and well funded activity.

By the way, you mentioned in your earlier posts the possibility of individual efforts at peace between individuals and settlements. I recently met an Israeli who mentioned that while this has been ever present and ongoing, it took a major blow with the latest intifada, and not only involved Arab Palestinians, but Arab Israelis withdrawing contacts with people who thought they were their fellow Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:29 PM

Martin:
I gladly will tell that to everyguy named Mohammed as well as those named Martin, joe, Itzaak, etc. I've been to war and have seen what it can do. I'm not a bleeding heart who never served. I'm a combat vet who fervently desires to see the day when we don't need to kill each other over religion or anything else for that matter. Kindest regards, Neil PS- I know how difficult that is to achieve.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: curmudgeon
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:51 PM

As explained to me by a Black Muslim friend some forty years ago, a jihad can only be legitimate in instances where Muslims' religious practises are being prohibited or otherwise interfered with as well as denying Muslims access to their shrines and other holy places -- Tom

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:53 PM

Right, and Mullah Omar is certainly going to listen to that.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:08 PM

Check out the end portion of "A Short Walk In The Hindu Kush" where the narrator's guide tells him the story of the last War of Conversion in Kafiristan. The bandits were brought to a rock with a head sized depression in it, and were told to either become a Muslim or leave their head in the rock. The guide says "My father has a very big head, but he also became a Muslim."

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: GUEST,Mullah Omar
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

You're on my shit list too, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:40 PM

Who cares, you towel head.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:36 PM

M Ted: Israel has a very sophisticated intelligence network and they know very well what is happening inside Iran. They will not be surprised by any pre-emptive attack. If anything, they will neutralize Iran's offensive capability, just like they did years ago with the reactor in Iraq, before Iran can get their missles off the ground. Many of the Sephardic Jews who serve in Israels intelliegence services originally come from these Middle Eastern nations and blend in very well with the locals. In order to survive in that part of the world you have to understand the Arab mentality. Israel understands it. Unfortunately for George W. Bush, he did not understand it at all and that is why we are now in the quagmire of a mess that we are in Iraq. As far as the Christian rightwingers go, yes. They are not real friends of the Jews but only temporary allies that are trying to fulfill a prophecy that they believe from the New Testament. However, we as Jews do not believe at all in the New Testament, only in the Old Testament. In fact, Orthodox Jews are forbidden to read the New Testament unless they are engaged in anti-missionary activity, for which they have to get a special dispensation. I am not one of those few who are so engaged. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:17 PM

Unfortunately, Rabbi Sol, Iranians are not Arabs--and there is a whole different quagmire to get into there--and I think that Iran's comments were directed at the idea that Israel might try to disable their nuclear reactor--and I believe that Iran has missles concealed in the Zagros Mountains, difficult to pre-empt, even for Israel--

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:56 PM

Just my opinion but I think that the word towel-head might be considered inflammatory speech and covered by various laws that may or may not apply to internet usage. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:24 PM

No doubt. But Martin has free speech and will use it as he sees fit. I don't think it's either wise or sensible to pass laws regarding what words people are allowed to speak.

And keep in mind...I do disagree with Martin's position on the matter.

Rabbi-Sol, I don't honestly think that Isreal is a friend to Jews (in a general sense of Jews worldwide). But we'll disagree on that one.

The word "jihad" comes from the Muslim culture, and means a holy war. My use of it in a broader sense is quite clear, I think. Every nation that goes to war over heartfelt issues is fighting a holy war on the basis of its own most sacred beliefs...or at least it's pretending to in order to motivate its public and its soldiers to support that war.

You don't have to be Muslim to fight a holy war. (You don't even have to believe in God! You can believe in some other thing that you hold sacred...like petro-dollars.) George Bush is fighting a holy war...quite obviously. He is on a jihad against those whom he considers "evil". So is Ariel Sharon. So were the IRA. So was Hitler. So too the Spanish Armada. So too the English fleet that defeated them. So were the crusaders who went to capture Jerusalem. So was Mao Tse-Tung. So was Pol Pot.

Jihads are the rule, not the exception in warfare, and the Muslims have no monopoly on the concept...unholy as it actually is. They just have their own favorite word for it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:40 PM

I think co-opting a word that has a specific definition (especially one tied to any specific culture), so that one can use it in a much broader sense, in a debate about political matters, is unnecessarily and foolishly inflammatory. It adds a layer of upset in an area where there is already enough upset that one would be better advised to seek SHARED definitions rather than using differences of definition to highten the tension. People do quite a bit of this without awarely intending to, so I am raising it in the hope that people might set an intention NOT to do it. Isn't this discussion in particular meant to focus on peace??? Does it make sense to start a war to discuss peace? :~)

Remember all the uproar at Mudcat when people started flinging around the term "folk nazi" and people who'd lived through the REAL Holocaust properly jumped up and suggested it was a prety bad and hurtful analogy?

I think discussing differences is hard enough without over-dramatizing a topic by the use of loaded words one KNOWS others define differently. It's a real shortcut to upset. And lazy.

Now that some of you have indulged me by defining your sense of this word, an opportunity is there-- for each of you to respond to one another within the definition you understand the other person to have been speaking from. Not defending your own terms, but trying to actually understand each others'.

Betcha can do that. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

Little Hawk,
             The land of Israel is very holy and is an integral part of the Jewish religion. Please bear in mind, that I am not in any way referring to the State of Israel or the secular government as it exists today. I am referring to the geographical territory. There are certain rituals in our religion (mitzvah's) that can only be performed within the geographical boundaries of the holy land. Although many Orthodox Jews, myself included, are not at all pleased with some of the anti-religious policies of the secular government, it is far better than the alternative, which is complete anihilation at the hands of Arafat and his cohorts. We have already had one Holocaust in our lifetime. We do not want to see another one. That is why we pray 3 times a day for the coming of the Messiah and our eventual return to Jerusalem, with a rebuilt Holy Temple. as it existed in Biblical times. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM

I'm sorry, Mary Garvey if I offended you by calling our Guest, Mullah Omar a towel head. I take that back.

I really meant to call him a turban cowboy.

Oh, puhhhhhhhlease don't call the Internet police on me! You are really a picture of a double standard defending someone who pretends to be a known terrorist and says, "You're on my shit list, too Martin." I found that offensive and if you don't and let stupid slang upset you, I believe that you have a real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:53 PM

But, Susan, "jihad" is simply a Muslim word that means "holy war", is it not? Is that hard for people to understand what I mean about that when it is explained calmly?

A holy war is a holy war is a holy war. What difference does it make if one culture calls it a "jihad" while another calls it a "crusade", etc...as long as everyone understands that human beings do this sort of thing at times and feel morally justified when they do it?

To realize that all nations share this kind of thinking (at times) is to move away from prejudice and zenophobia and toward a recognition of our shared humanity as a single (and fallible) human race. It is to stop seeing the Muslim or the Jew as some sort of grotesque cultural stereotype, and start seeing them as another human similar to ourselves.

I've met any number of Muslims who do not wish to launch a jihad against anyone, and any number of Jews who do not wish to do that either. Sadly enough, those are not the people you tend to hear about in news reporting too much these days. (It's not exciting enough. They want exciting stuff on the News...it attracts viewers.)

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 11:46 PM

LH--

It matters because there are centuries of culture distilled into that word, and centuries of another culture distilled into a people the word is now being used about, and because a great deal of the difficulty this thread is ABOUT lie in those centuries of very different cultures and the lack of understanding about one another.

A jihad, for example, is not a crusade. They have entirely different cultural referents, and when you use one of those words you bring up all the attached baggage that goes with that word. The baggage attached to each is different. And that is a good thing, not a thing to water down by making them appear to be interchangeable!

These are powerful tools, words. Say, didn't Dylan kinda depend on a certain way of using words? Does it matter that he wrote "Lay across my big brass bed" instead of "Kindly recline aslant my rather large knobby fourposter"? Do his songs have the same effect if you slap a lotta synonyms into them??? If you think so, then start reading the poltically-corrected version of fairly tales.

To deny the culturally evocative power of words at a site devoted to collecting lyrics is pretty silly, innit? I'm tired-- I'm going to bed!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:09 AM

Yeah, yeah. People used to get upset over the word "Luftwaffe" too. It was considered synonymous with evil. You know what "luftwaffe" means in the German language? It means..."air force". That is its literal meaning, and that's all it means. "Jagdwaffe" meant "fighter (plane) force". "Kriegsmarine" meant "war fleet" or "navy". None of these terms in any way indicated a symbolic connection with Naziism. They were neutral terms similar to what other countries use to describe armed forces. Needless to say, the modern German air force is again called the Luftwaffe, just like it was in World War II.

It is precisely because people are lazy thinkers that they cannot bother to look beyond a culturally derived word like "luftwaffe" or "jihad" and realize that it is referring to something that they and other people do too...not just the people they are focusing their fear and anger upon.

Martin was singling out Muslims with his use of the term "jihad", and I am pointing out that Muslims are not the only people who go haring off on crazy wars of perceived righteousness and kill civilians in the process. Israelis and Americans do much the same sort of thing, but they call it by some other name. Both sides in the Middle East are engaged in the same sort of destructive actions, using the power at their command. It so happens the Israelis and Americans are powerful enough to do it in the open. Those who are not that powerful do it with roadside bombs, suicide bombers, snipers, and over-the-border rocket attacks. It has ever been so. The powerful march in glittering armies. The not so powerful snipe from the shadows...as was often the case when American revolutionaries took on larger formations of British soldiers in the early years of the American War of Independence. I'm sure the British considered those American colonists to be the equivalent of "terrorists" at that juncture in history.

They were, after all, opposed to the rule of kings! (Absolute heresy at the time...) Why, they were worse than Communists, those ragged colonials, definitely in league with the devil, best just to hang them all. :-)

Yup, that's the way the mighty British Empire saw it. That's the way the American-Israeli Empire sees the ragged people who oppose them from the shadows too. Just barely human...cos they don't have nice uniforms, nuclear bombs, and stealth bombers at their command. They are therefore not seen as morally sanctioned to kill en masse, like American B-52 pilots do.

They do have Saudi oil money coming in, though, to finance their efforts from the shadows...and the Saudis have nice fleets of shiny fighter jets supplied by America in return for lucrative oil arrangements.

Very dirty business indeed. I wonder what Israel has been promised by the USA in return for playing their part in the game? Maybe a nice big piece of Iraq somewhere down the line? Or oil? Or water? I wonder.

These people are sowing the wind, as the saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM

I find it interesting that the perception is that Israel is stronger than all the arab countries surrounding it combined.   Perhaps you may want to look at a map.   Israel has about 1% of the land and about 1% of the population.   It is kind of like Iowa stating it could defeat the rest of the United States.   I don't think any of us can truly understand how that feels (maybe Michael Moore when he was at the Republican convention on Monday or Sean Hannity when he was at the Democratic convention)

I continue you say- you don't negotiate with terrorists.   You defeat them.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM

LH, if the goal and the topic both are peace, is it not better to seek to understand the other, than to expect the other to understand you?

Does this not possibly include yielding to the cultural understanding and milieu of the other?

Or is it more peace-building to insist on being right, and having a right to one's own language habits?

My own experience has been that before I can hope the other will see that we have things in common, each must first find their own basis of discussion respected, or I am imposing what I think someone SHOULD see on what they DO see. In all the alliance-building work I've done, that's been one of the first hurdles.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:06 AM

I think I do understand the other side, Susan. I respect both Jews and Muslims and I would hope to see them live in peace. I understand exactly why Jews feel under threat, given the experience of the Holocaust and other historical pogroms against them. I understand exactly why the Arabs and Palestinians feel under threat.

It is the misperception of the more combatant people on either side of the Arab-Israeli issue that only they are victims, only they have been attacked, and only the other guy is committing aggression. It is those misperceptions I am challenging in suggesting that people on both sides stop killing each other and attempt genuinely to respect one another and make peace.

Larry - How much of the World does England take up in land mass? Half a percent? They once dominated the World. Israel is more powerful militarily than all its Arab opponents put together, for several reasons:

a superior command of high technology
a large stockpile of nuclear weapons
a dominant air force that can easily defeat its opponents
an extremely elite and experienced armed forces
the backing of the United States of America

And one more example: Macedonia, a very small place, once conquered most of the "known World" of its time. Size has nothing to do with it, Larry. Military expertise and the will to conquer have everything to do it.

You cannot defeat an enemy in a dispute like this one finally and completely until you either:

1. kill every single one of them and all their children too (highly unlikely in this case)

or

2. resolve whatever the original problem is that has turned them into your enemy, and you into theirs.

I'm suggesting...to both Israel and the Arabs...option 2. Option 1 is not even worth considering.

They have not listened very well to such suggestions in the past because they are either too overconfident, too fearful, too proud, too arrogant, or too bitter to listen. This does not indicate good judgement on the part of either one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:22 PM

Here's something I've been wondering the last few days. It seems like a lot of the reasoning behind much of the aid the US gives to Israel is because Isreal is seen as the bulwark of "democracy" in the midst of countries that are not democracies. US access to oil is often given as an important reason for the US's need to even have a bulwark of democracy in the Middle East. It has occurred to me lately that with the world moving toward a non-oil based economy, Israelis (and others with a vested interest in Israel) might be concerned that the US would cease to have the incentive to give the massive amounts of support it now gives to Israel in the absence of the need for oil. And that they might, as a result, fear that Israel would cease to exist in the absence of that aid from the US.

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:37 PM

Ithink this thread from Wolfgang deserves a link here in this thread:

Fighting terrorism the French Muslim way

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:38 PM

The United States and Great Britain, by way of the United Nations, in cooperation with the Nato Allies, were responsible for creating the State of Israel--It was, at the time, thought a noble idea to finally grant a homeland to the Jews--a ray of hope in the shadow of the Holocaust, if you will--

Though it may be hard to believe now, it wasn't motivated by the need for a "bulwark of democracy" near the oil reserves--though that may have been considered by some to be a bit of gravy--In those days after the War, we really were idealistic, altruistic, and committed to making the world a better place.

At any rate, our support for Israel has been based on that initial committment-

As to the idea that we are moving toward a non-oil based economy, I find that almost as peculiar as the idea that without American Aid, Israel would cease to exist--

Subject: RE: BS: The jihad must be stopped
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:43 PM

Please know, M.Ted, that I don't happen to hold that belief myself. But it does sound, from the some of the things I've been reading and hearing, that that fear may exist in some people. But of course I could be wrong. Just thought I'd put it out there for comment.