BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?

Subject: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 11:19 AM

Bit odd I know but as I know that 'catters will talk about most things, why not;-)

Since the end of June I have been very well behaved in the nutrition department. I admit that a bit (well, OK, a lot) of weight loss may be the goal but I realised ages ago that diets don't work. You are either on them, losing, or off them and gaining. No, thinks I, the way forward is to eat and excercise properly and keep the booze down to sensible levels.

Brilliant and easy and works! Not only did I start to loose a bit of weight, 16-17lbs in 6-7 weeks, but I was lively, full of energy, doing more work than ever, sleeping well etc. I was up to 30 minutes cycling twice a week. 10 minute jog with a 15 minute walk back twice a week, Tai Chi form every morning and stated Eskrima (Philipno martial art) once a week.

Then bang! I went on a course 10 days ago and got well ratted (on expenses - what do you expect!) on the first night. It has taken me 10 days to recover!!! I have bene drinking every night. Eating the wrong stuff. Doing no excercise etc. I have been listless, had no energy and felt completely drained and depressed. I gained about 6lbs.

I thought at first I had a virus and then realised not! I am convinced that if I screw up my bodies blood sugar levels to the extent I did it does indeed take some getting back from. I am now at the end of my second day of being sensible again and am starting to feel great:-) Going off for my first fast slouch (You can't call what I do a jog) tomorrow and am realy looking forward to getting up in the morning!

Anyone any views (or even facts!) Is it blood sugar related do you think? Or was it just the booze? Answers on a postcard please...

Cheers

DtG
(PS Son number 1 is type 1 diabetic. Sister in Law is type 2. I know a bit about these things!)

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 12:10 PM

Congrats on the weight loss and healthy habits Dave!

Alcohol is indeed very much connected to blood sugar levels. I have done a fair amount of reading on it and in more than one place have read that one of the most common forms/causes of alcoholism is hypoglycemics (i.e. people with low blood sugar) who "self-medicate" with alcohol! These are folks who take in a steady supply of alcohol in the evening, usually don't eat breakfast, etc.

My mom, brother and niece are all Type 1 diabetics--niece diagnosed at 11, Mom and bro at 35! No other Type 1 diabetes in my family though. My dad, I think, has the above-mentioned low blood sugar--alcohol problem. I myself am hypoglycemic and have to watch my alcohol intake, in addition to avoiding too much sugary stuff, and caffeine-containing drinks (which also cause blood sugar crash). I can have a treat or dessert if I have had enough protein beforehand though...

You can probably have a drink now and then but make sure you're eating properly and keeping with your exercise--sounds liek the extreme change in habits caused the slump. One drink a day is meant to be good for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 01:57 PM

Thanks Peg - Sorry to hear about your troubles in the other thread so an extra special thanks it is:-)

Aye 1 drink a day indeed. I was keeping well under the prescribed limit for driving (35 whatever they ares of alcohol - 3.5 units) about 2 or 3 times a week. Then, on that first night of the course, 22 units! No wonder I was ill...

Hope you are recovered from your Hiatus soon! I still listen to the CD you sent:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dewey
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

Insulin is regulated by a variety of factors in the Body. Alcohol is not a positive one,it stimulates the body to produce excess insulin, insulin combines with sugar to produce energy, It not burned up, it turns to fat. Avoiding simple carbohydrates (i.e. sugar and alcohol) regulate normal blood sugar levels. you are REALLY STRESSING OUT your pancreas if you consume too much sugar or alcohol is one sitting, This could lead to diabetes if you are not careful.

As For Maintaining Weight:Stay Away From White Refined Breads, i.e. Whitebread, Donuts, Bagels Etc. (use them sparingly in moderation)

Contrary to the fradulant irresponsible Fad Diets (Like Aktins For Example) Complex Carbohydrates Are Good For You, And are necessary to Fuel Your Body.(i.e. you body must have some fuel to function)

As long as the Complex Carbs are used, you should have no problem regualting your bloodsugar. Complex carbs enter the bloodstream slower than simple sugar, they also have the added benefit of fiber which is also good for the health of the internal organs of the body, and thus the blood sugar is not spiked like it is with simple carbohydrates. Complex Carbs provide the proper balance of energy for the activities we do during the day. The Carbohydrate is not stored as Fat if exercise is combined, becasue the body needs and uses the energy that it gets from these sources.

Complex Carbs are those like Cracked Wheat Bread, Brown Rice (not white as it doesn't have the shell) Beans of All Kinds, Legumes, Lentils etc. Add some extra fiber and have some vegetables. You body will be cleaner inside and out than it you fill it up with EXCESSIVE amounts of meats, dairy and oils.

Too Much Intake of Fat and Simple Carbohydrates lead to the Following Conditions: Obesity, Diabetes.

TOO MUCH Fat Oils and Meat especially leads to colon and various other cancers, constipation, type 2 diabetes, early aging, brain disfuntion, kidney stones, bad breath, skin problems etc.

When You eliminate the processed food of mankind and the oils in them, AND EXERCISE, you increase insulin senstivity. Insulin sensitivity is the results of clean blood, with limited levels of sugars entering the bloodstream, exercise provides the oxygen necessary to breakdown these sugars and turn the into energy, When You exercise, because your nutrition was balanced, you use up the excess energy which likewise cannot be turned into fat and stored on your body (love handles, buttocks etc.) The bloodstream is being cleansed by diatray fiber that protects the integraty of the vessels.
Missing when you consume Porter House Steaks and Other Oils (used in irresponsible amount on the Atkins Diet.

Please remember too if you consume too much meat and oils, that those fat lipids enter into your bloodstream, and must be broken down by your liver, and it takes many hours to do this. If you are on the Atkins Diet, they may never get broken down as there is a constant stream of new fat entering the bloodstream.

This Fat leads to insulin insensitivity; and, if combined with a poor and constant fat based diet (and no execise) and no exercise will lead to weight gain.

Also remember with you simple sugars and fat, you are creating a calorie cocktail. In sugars there are 4 calories per gram, and in Fat There are a whopping 9 calories of fat per gram. If you eat an Apple Pie For example at one sitting and Done execise, you will most definitely not be able to use the energy up and it will thus be stored as fat.

This is why the MacDonald menu has been so criticized in times past. They Supersize Everything. A Large Sugarly Coke the Size of a Jug (to Spike your sugar), A Greasy Doubble Hamburger With All the Dressing (and White Bread to Spike You Sugar), Combined with a Supersized Order of Fries (to Spike Your Sugar). Not to Mention the Calorie Content which is probably somewhere upward to 1400 Calories. Beinging
In these as well as alcohol will most certainly effect you heart, bloodpressure and organs of the long term.

Also Just As Unhealthy is the foolish Atkins craze, Which Tells People they don't need any energy sources for the day, but relies on toxic ketones to burn up the excess fat stored on our sides. Sure you'll lose weight but at a cost to your health and well being.

Of course people love this diet because it tells them they don't need to eat heatlhy and can have all the steaks they could ever desire, irreguardless of the circumstance to the bodies. There is more to weight loss than just losing weight. There is also for example the issues of diet, nutrition and execise, All of which are important on a true weight loss program over the long term.

I have diabetes, ande have to have Carbohydrates, and the only wayh I was able to use weigh (this needing to take insulin and carbohydrates into my body) was to eat right and execise.

I did lose the weight, plus my insulin intake went down as well as my blood pressure, heart rate etc, even digestion improved, no constipation, stomach indigestion etc.

Contraguations on using the common sense, we all stray from this path on occasion. But Healthy eating and exercise are the key.

Not reducing your carbohydrate exclusively and falling for the fade diets, which make millions off of people while at the same time killing there bodies.

Find someone spiritual and likeminded to your goals and get back on the path, even if you fall at times.

I know as I am was and am a hypocrite, I still eat this crap too often, and sit around, yet I know that there is a price for my doing so, Anyway back to the treadmill and the produce department is a good one.

Good Luck to You and Me Both, as in this fast paced world we all sometimes get a bit off course in taking care of our health.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 06:26 PM

Wow! What a super response, Dewey. It confirms what I thought about many of the diets as well. How can anything that relies too heavily on the inclusion or exclusion of a major food group be good? I had sort of worked out a lot of it from my knowledge of diabetes. I coupled that with an interest in nutrition and health and it's nice to know that my conclusions seem to be correct!

Now then, do you reckon we can make a fortune on a DeweyGnomish diet book? After all a brisk walk followed by a lean ham sandwich on wholemeal and a half of real ale sounds far more appetising than a diet bar :-)

Cheers and agreements on the good luck to us both!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 06:42 PM

I am also diabetic. I find that I feel my very best when I have a well rounded diet and am somewhat active. As for why it is you feel so yuck after a bout of drinking...well...I can only answer as to how my own body would react. I'd feel like crap from drinking. It would take my body a day or two to readjust to the proper levels (insulin)unless I counter attack the effects by altering my insulin intake. I do NOT suggest this unless you are EXTREMELY aware of how YOUR body reacts to YOUR prescribed insulin intake. I don't know that going out once and drinking should really effect your routine of EXCELLENT habits (KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!!). Don't despair...it's actually GOOD for you to take a break occassionally as long as it's just a break.

Feel better, keep it moderate and you'll be just fine!   :)

Michelle

PS. Careful on the excess alcohol as it actually LOWERS your blood sugar. This can be really dangerous as you may feel and appear drunk (to yourself and others) but it could be that your sugar levels are bottoming out. So, if you were to pass out, it would be hard for others to know that you need medical assistance for low blood sugar. Weird....I had always thought that alcohol contained so much sugar that the glucose levels would rise...I was incredibly wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:02 PM

True-love is a type 2 diabetic who has the whole thing under great control. The most obvious symptom he had before he was diagnosed was lethargy. He has never been overweight and actually prefers a low GI diet. Adding an excercise program and eliminating a very few things from his diet was all he needed to do.
It's not so easy for most of us but it seems the way to go even for non-diabetics.
The latest research shows that type 2 diabetes occurs in people with a genetic predisposition, so that a poor diet is not a cause, but is probably a factor in determining how soon you develop it. That is if you have the right (or wrong depending on how you view it) set of genes.
Having said that, I think we can all benefit from the experience of diabetics. Low GI diet, regular exercise.
Good luck Dave. You've already shown you can do it. Forgive yourself for the small lapse. Every time I have a fall like that I can't believe I did it either. Cheers Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM

I've been diagnosed (in early February) as insulin resistant. So now I "prick my thumbs" twice a day (sometime thrice), try to eat no more than 45 grams of carbohydrates per meal (not difficult), and eat lean meats sparingly (serving no larger than the palm of my hand -- and about as thick). Alcohol is small amounts (no more than 2 beers per day). And exercise.

Damn, I used to get exercise jumping to conclusions and running off at the mouth. Now I have to walk and stuff.

But I've lost about 20 pounds so far and I feel much better -- livelier, more alert.

Yeah, I've fallen off the wagon at times. But you can do it. Just get back on board and don't flog yourself because you're human.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:56 AM

My acupuncturist recommends five small meals per day of one half cup carbs each meal, in the way of pasta al dente, old-fashioned oatmeal, or brown rice with as much whole veggies and/or fruits as will fill one up. Low-fat protein is also included, esp. soy products (Boca Burgers, etc.), fish, and skinless chicken. Also, LOTS of water. This helps keep the blood sugar and hormones balanced. It is a great way to lose weight, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:22 AM

Now then - here's a thing. My weight was 222lb (I'll use lbs because us Brits can divide by 14 but I'm not sure about you yanks :-P ) This is pretty damned high because I am 5' 5" (Where d'ya think the gnome bit comes from?) and should be around 150. So 72lb to loose - Hell of a lot init! Anyway, back to the story. After the 6 or 7 weeks I was on a healthy lifestyle I went down to 205 - Great. Only 55lb to go (Bloody hell - Thats a 1/2 cwt!!!) I only weigh myself once a week btw - Sunday or Monday morning after my shower and when my eyes are working well enough to see the scales...

Last Sunday after 4 days of slipping into bad ways I was 210. Carried on with the bad ways till Friday and am now on day 3 of good stuff again. Weighed myself this morning and was 206:-) You know the old diet thing - If it goes off quickly it will come back on just as quick? Well, does this show that the reverse applies? If it goes on quickly it falls off again? Hmmm. Anyroads - another surprise.

Excercise. I thought I would go for a 10 minute jog(ish) this morning with a 15 minute walk back. Boy, am I glad I didn't! It was peeing down so I thought sod this for a game of soldiers. Excercise bike will do. Remember that 2 weeks ago I could cycle quite happily for 30 minutes either on the road or on the static one. When on the excercise one I can clock my heartrate as well and after 30 minutes of 20+mph I was rarely above 135bpm. This morning I was knackered after 10 minutes doing around 18mph and my heart was up to 160! Just shows how quickly you can loose that side of it as well - hopefully it will only take a couple of weeks to get back to before.

Just thought I'd let you know.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:24 AM

Blood sugar was 111 Mg/dL this morning. The doc will be pleased. It's been as high as 162 and as low as 71, and I wasn't pleased!

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:58 PM

Goodonya, both o'youse!

I forgot to include spelt and/or sprouted grain bread products, such as "Ezekiel" bread as one of the good carbs. Also, nuts, sparingly, as a protein source.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:02 PM

Why is it people have to try to discredit the Atkins diet?

You'd think that the food processing industry thought itself really threatened by a new way of eating which did not include it and decided to put some really powerful propaganda around about the Atkins diet just in case more people realised they did not need to eat high carb and transfat laden processed food - in fact that it is bad for them.

If you want to lose weight just toss out the grain, sugar, beans and potatoes, eat salad, veges with low carb densities, a little fruit - read Dr Atkin's New Diet Revolution for a list of all the things to avoid and all the things you can eat and still lose weight.

Avoid all the stuff being sold as for the Atkins diet - it is just the food processing giants trying to make a profit and ruin the diet's effectiveness. It might say 2 carbs on the front - but just read the ingredients!!!

You can easily prove that you don't need to eat dense carbohydrates - just stop doing it, your body will thank you by feeling better and getting thinner.

By the way ketosis is not dangerous, not toxic, but 'they' hope it will be confused with diabetic acidosis - which is actually the opposite in terms of blood sugar concentration.

Dr Atkins was dead wrong in the reasons why his diet works, by the way - and if my experience is typical you only need to maintain normal levels of dietary fat or oil, and it is protein which makes you not feel hungry, but that is only the justification he gave when faced with such oposition from the establishment. The same oposition has been voiced for decades, every time someone realises that carbohydrates make you fat - it has been known since the 18 hundreds, but somehow no one wants us to know about it. You'd really think there was some big money making concern wanting to discredit the idea.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:39 AM

Ms. Croucher,

You seem to not be distinguishing between the standard carbohydrates associated with sugar, white flour, and highly processed food, versus food combinations that produce the protein-like complex carbohydrates that are much better for us. Beans and rice, nuts and grains, there are quite a number of them. They were discussed above in another post. These are the foods that keep much the world alive and healthy, those who can't (or won't) consume high volumes (or any volumes) of meat. The Atkins diet can only thrive in a nation where we have more money than sense, and can buy the amount of protien that diet requires.

By the way ketosis is not dangerous, not toxic, but 'they' hope it will be confused with diabetic acidosis - which is actually the opposite in terms of blood sugar concentration.

This is not true. Ketosis can be dangerous. That doesn't mean other diets haven't also used this state as a diet tool. The popular Scarsdale diet used it. A couple of years back I met a nurse at the local hospital where she doing some wound-care treatment for me. She had just returned from maternity leave. It seems a year earlier she considered starting the Atkins diet, but knew it could be dangerous. The doctors who worked with her assured her they'd keep an eye on her electrolytes and such. But what they didn't take into account was that the Ketosis kicked her birth control pills in the butt, and she found herself pregnant, and with a 15 year spread between her last child and this one. That was a little complication, there are other health concerns that can be worse.

Here is a web site on Ketosis. Visit some of the links to learn more about it. Here is what it says about complications:

High levels of ketones with acidity in the blood is called ketoacidosis. The excess acidity in the blood is dangerous to the whole body. . The body can control blood acidity up to a point, but too much acid overcomes this and the acidity rises. The result is vomiting, loss of water and minerals (sodium and potassium) and a major biochemical upset in the body. Ketoacidosis is a medical emergency needing urgent hospital treatment.

If you're dieting and using the Atkins diet, with or without the "products" on the market, I hope you'll do a little research beyond the covers of the Atkins diet books. They're not likely to contradict themselves, and in a research context, are like using the word in the definition. Find some neutral material (is there a Consumer Reports for diet plans?) and see what is said. A web search hits a lot of sponsored (biased) sites with something to sell, so they're not much help.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:30 AM

some of us are descended from those who consumed high volumes of meat, dairy products, etc., such as Eskimos, Swiss etc. Some of us are descended from grain-eaters, or fruit eaters. we would probably be well advised to follow their patterns if we are of some particular ethnic stock, and there is a healthy diet that results in longevity etc. We can't philosophize our way into finding the right diet for us. If we are this single ethnic stock, and most of us are not, we can start with that. I am amazed that people get all excited finding that Greeks do well on the Greek diet, Chinese do well on the Chinese diet etc. Well of course. Those who did not adapt probably died before reproducing. It has been said by many doctors that the unhealthiest people are those who need high protein and/or high fats in their diets and do not get them. This can lead to diabetes, heart problems, alcoholism, you name it. Read the metabolic body typing diet, or some such name. Anything by Dr. Bernstein on diabetes, anything by Dr. Schwarzbein on diabetes. Follow the insulin links and the cortisol links. The information is out there now. People can confirm it with various medical tests, and test glucose at home. If you need meat, you need meat. if you need fat, you need fat. Don't let others dictate to you. It will be extremely hard to get good information on this but keep trying. I certainly don't know for myself because i am certainly overweight, but if I ate all the complex carbs people wanted me to I would weight 300 lbs. and be in a coma most of the day. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Mudlark
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:53 AM

Ah, Mary Garvey, you are a voice of reason crying in the wilderness!

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:33 AM

I reckon 'If we are this single ethnic stock, and most of us are not' is a good point, Mary. I, for one, am a mixture of East and West European and had vastly different food depending on whether I visited my English/Welsh Granparents or my Russian/Polish ones! Going back to an earlier point any diet that excludes or includes vast quantities of any major food group cannot be healthy for most of us.

Everything in moderation - just like me... (:-0)

I think the food intake of differing 'ethnic stock' will level out (Type of food AND quantity all being well!) in these days of the global village but there is still a lot of sense in it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:12 AM

ALL of our ancestors, if you go back far enough, ate whatever came to hand, including termites, rotting fruit, decaying meat, and, at times, each other. Because we're omnivorous the race survived, and yes, you CAN survive on such a diet today if you must.

Survive. Even survive in good health. But it's not the optimum diet.

Me, I'll stick with moderation and eat some (lean) meat, some carbs (preferably complex ones), some fruit, some dairy, and even some cookies. I'll drink my three mugs of caffenated coffee each day and enjoy it. I'll avoid peacocks' tongues, tripe, muktuk, and ortolans in the same way I avoid horseflesh.

It's a shame, but I have pretty much given up pasta dishes. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:29 AM

Rapaire, if your pasta is eaten in the right food combination, it doesn't need to be off limits either. Moderation, as has been said, is crucial to ANY diet working. I understand the rationale, and have read of studies in other countries, but I tend to disagree with the race-based diet in someplace like the U.S. because we have been too far removed from a specific authochthonous diet for too long to be adapted to a type and we've intermingled genetically. If people are living in the place where their ancestors have spent several centuries, perhaps. And if their food source hasn't been adulterated by markets and the promotion of processed (an relatively) imported foods.

The ethnobotanist Gary Nabhan has written about an environmentally balanced and sustainable diet (Coming Home to Eat: the Pleasures and Politics of Local Foods that people should try to practice, in which they eat foods that are in season and come from the area within a 250 mile radius of their home. This would tend to duplicate Mary's indigenous diet reference, but in a modern world. And depending on where you live, you may not find an across-the-board balance of foodstuffs available. You might have to start your own garden and raise your own meat!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Tired of it all
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:47 AM

Well I hope this thread helps someone. Myself, I went on something called an insulin resistance diet (per dr's orders). I have cut out all the sugar, white bread, potatoes, pasta, and increased the veggies, chicken, fish, etc. I haven't lost a pound in 6 months. Haven't noticed a change in energy levels. It's all very frustrating.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 11:21 AM

You gotta exercise, too. My dietician says to take 10,000 steps a day (equals about 5 miles of walking) -- McDonald's had a step counter for USD 2.99 available earlier this summer, at least in the US. Other, better, ones are also available.

I long ago came to the conclusion that a strictly vegetarian (or vegan) diet was impossible in any country in the temperate zone which did not have a modern food distribution system.

Insulin resistance isn't diabetes. My friend PKN, who is mucho insulin diabetic, wonders what would have happened if she had started as insulin resistant all those years ago instead of being put immediately on insulin.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM

tired guest..read the metabolic body (not blood) typing book. Take the test. Just try adding some red meat and other things they suggest. Look at your intake of fats and oils. There is a body type they mention, and I am one, that is called high purine protein...this type needs the heavier meats and fats...never let a transfat cross your lips. You might do very well with more fats, certainly more omega 3, perhaps more dairy fats. This is not medical advice. naturally keep testing your blood sugar and weight. Read up on Dr. Mary Enig's research. Very very good work. I read somewhere that the more damaged our insulin mechanism the fewer carbs we can process...makes sense of course.

There is a different way of looking at diabetes now..and that it is a storage capacity thing..if you are on your way to it, and figure if you are overweight you are, you have consumed too many of some kind of carbs for your personal metabolism at this time, and/or in the past. And that insulin is not a hormone so much to regulate blood sugar, but to store fat for the winter. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:11 PM

i think that you have to find the way of eating that suits you. I am intollerant to a number of foods, including wheat and rice and sugar. I also find that carbohydrates such as grain and potatoes have a very unfortunate effect on my system so tend to leave them alone. I now pretty well stick to meat, fish, eggs, some cheese, fruit, nuts and vegetables with some butter and olive oil thrown in. My weight stays fairly stable and my energy levels stay reasonable. If I stray too far from this programme I end up feeling unwell. My blood pressure and resting heartbeat are both low and, in general, this diet suits me, although it might not suit anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:35 PM

What a hoot.

Doctors expecting the Atkins diet to cause problems and what happens - their 'patient' rapidly becomes pregnant!! I hope that mother and baby are doing well.

By the way I said ketosis is not dangerous and this is absolutely true, but of course if you describe a state of high ketone levels in the blood then that is an entirely different matter.

But that is not ketosis.

That is not ketosis.

That is not ketosis.

It is the exact oposite in terms of blood sugar concentration, and a healthy normal function which somehow no one wants to admit even exists. If 'they' can get you to confuse it with a Type 1 diabetes 'this is going to kill you' state then 'their' propaganda machine is doing very well.      

When breaking down body fat you (and other animals) produce and excrete ketones - I believe they would not build up unless you are suffering kidney failure - you can read the warnings in Dr Atkins book if you like.

There are results from many studies done under medical supervision which appear to show nothing dangerous being detected in people 'in ketosis'.

If you want reserch, try Phinney, S.D., et al 'The Human Metabolic Response to Chronic Ketosis Without Caloric Restriction' Metabolism, 32,(8) 1983

Like I said, 'they' want you to believe that it is dangerous to follow the Atkins diet - even if they can't provide any reasons.

By the way - Humans evolved as one type - the cultivation of grain and beans by any particular group is not even the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms, the movement of people into the Far North where they might eat a lot of meat is insignificant on a genetic level, it is too recent.

Naturally I am convinced that foods with a low glycaemic index are the ones to eat, there is so much reserch linking them to avoiding so many diseases - but I would far sooner be eating fresh, crisp, green red yellow purple orange growing salads and vegetables than grains, beans, potatoes etc., no matter how 'complex' their sad stodgy pale carbohydrates.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:03 PM

Recency has no bearing if the conditions were severe enough to wipe out, prior to reproduction primarily, of those unable to survive and reproduce on whatever foods were available. It could be done in one generation. If all the foods we had to live on were potatoes say, and everyone who could not survive and reproduce on this were to die of starvation or disease, then whoever did survive could theoretically (nature is never that theoretical)pass on their potatoe only survival genes to their offspring. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:24 PM

A recent study determined that drinking one sweet soda a day DOUBLES one's chances of the diabetes diagnosis.

As for myself... well ummm.... gosh.... slender is a flattering term in my book... heck, I've got to jump around in the shower just to get wet...

Let's just say that I get 'plenty' of excersize... Massive unadulterated physical effort on most days. In other words, I often work till I drop. Then, to make matters worse, my inner muse takes hold in the evening, and dinner becomes a late night snack.

However... I do not eat any sweetened food at all. Dairy, some meat, non starchy veggies, plenty of plain carbs, and lots of clean water get the job done. Though I've tried many 'alternative' dietary approaches, these foods work for me now. My weight has not changed noticably in 25 years.

I'm a coffee 'enthusiast'... But I do not drink alcohol at all. If I do, I don't earn my pay. It's just that simple.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:32 PM

Ketosis is the presence of excess ketones in the body.

Ketones are chemicals with a carbonyl unit (a carbon doubly bonded to an oxygen) that has two alkyl or aromatic (hydrocarbon) substituents bonded to the carbon atom.

Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism (the breaking down of fat into energy). Normally, your body is efficient at removing these, but when certain enzymes are absent or damaged, the amount of ketones in the body can build up to dangerous levels.

Certain individuals are predisposed towards ketosis. For example, those with diabetes have low insulin levels and can not process glucose (sugar) for energy. Therefore, their bodies break down fat, leading to a rise in ketone levels.

Ketones can be excreted through the urine and those that are volatile (such as acetone) can be expelled through the lungs. Diabetics can be mistaken for being drunk by the odor on their breath, and acetone being expelled through the lungs can give a false positive result on early model breathalyzers. However, don't expect to escape a ticket as driving while impaired (due to low blood sugar) is still a traffic offense whether you are drunk or not.

Ketosis can lead to coma and death if untreated.

I didn't write this, I copied it into this thread. I also suggest reading this, as it's based on research far more recent than 1983.

Now, frankly, I don't really care one way or the other how other folks eat. I'm going to follow the diet prescribed and which seems to work for me. I'm also doing things in moderation these days -- even excess.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:18 PM

Sorry Mary, it just doesn't work like that. You can't change the entire nutritional requirements or ability to utilise various foodstuffs within a species, or a community, by that process. You lose the ones unable to cope on the reduced diet, but that doesn't alter the ability of the survivors to eat other foods as soon as they are available.

The scenario of one source of food would be an unlikely one anyway - people were always moving around, even in the days when it was all on foot, and there would always be something edible from another food group turning up to relieve the boredom. OK it was a brave man who said 'I found these eating the leaves, how shall we cook them?' but a really hungry Human will eat anything too slow to get away. Civilised Humans just add salt and heat, and maybe garlic, but the same principle applies.   

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM

Hmmm...so Anne, what are your credentials in the nutrition department exactly? Friends and family who work in the nutrition research department at an ivy league university find the Atkins diet fine for losing weight (short term)but highly detrimental to ones health in other areas (mainly nutient absorbtion difficulties...many cases of colon cancer pointing in this direction) not to mention the obvious lack of essential minerals and vitamins from a strictly high protein diet. While you maintain that giving up carbs has been around for years, wouldn't you agree that everything in moderation and balance has been around for just as long?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:12 AM

you can eat massive amounts of vegetables on the Atkins or similar diet. No reason really to have vitamin deficiencies. Fruit is another matter and individuals vary in their ability to process the amount of sugars. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:35 AM

Also, it is very important to get your insulin levels checked, especially if you are getting overweight. You look at the ratio between your insulin levels and your blood sugar levels. I had mine checked and they were three times "normal". Maybe 4 times. My blood sugar, with some difficulty now, stays more or less just below the borderline diabetic state. But there is no doubt that there is an underlying process going on, and has gone on forever. You can have good blood sugar for many years, all the while usually putting on weight..your numbers will be OK, except for that pesky scale. Then sooner or later your system sort of collapses or you reach a point you can't process all those carbs anymore. Don't believe me; get the blood sugar monitor and get your insulin levels checked. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:04 AM

Ms. Croucher, repetition when denouncing the item I posted that came from a recent online medical encyclopedia doesn't give you any more credibility than saying it once. And posting such an OLD citation for this discussion isn't particularly useful either. Nor is refering us back to Atkin's book. Rapaire has it exactly right. Your zealous defence of this diet doesn't convince me.

Here are a couple of recent citations from the library databases at the university where I work:

Copyright:       Copyright © by Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. 2003
Author(s):       Feinman, Richard D. ; Makowske, Mary
Title:          Metabolic Syndrome and Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic
                Diets in the Medical School Biochemistry Curriculum
Source:          Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders 1, no. 3
                (2003): 189-197
                Additional Info: Mary Ann Liebert, Inc.; 20030901
Standard No:    ISSN:            1540-4196




Author(s):                     Rollo I
Title:                         Understanding the implications of
                               adopting the Atkins' diet.
Source:                        Nurs Times (Nursing times.) 2003 Oct
                               28-Nov 3; 99(43): 20-1
                               Additional Info:               England
Standard No:                   ISSN:                        
                               0954-7762; NLM Unique Journal Identifier: 0423236
Language:                      English
Abstract:                      Obesity-associated co-morbidities cost
                               the UK at least 0.5 bn Pound a year in NHS treatment, and many adults
                               in the UK are trying to lose weight. Dr Atkins' Diet Revolution focuses
                               on the consumption of proteins and fats as primary calorie and energy
                               sources, while severely restricting carbohydrates. However, this
                               contradicts conventional advice, which advocates a low-fat diet and
                               exercise for weight reduction.
References:                   Number:                        0
MESH Subject(s) below:
Chemical Subst:                Dietary Carbohydrates [0]
                               Dietary Fats [0]
                               Dietary Proteins [0]
Descriptor:                   (Minor):                      Diet,
                               Reducing -- nursing
                               Dietary Carbohydrates -- administration
                               & dosage
                               Dietary Fats -- administration & dosage
                               Dietary Proteins -- administration &
                               dosage
                               Energy Intake
                               Human
                               Ketosis -- metabolism
                               Obesity -- diet therapy
                               Obesity -- metabolism
                               Obesity -- nursing
Record Type:                   Nursing
Article Type:                  Journal Article; Review; Review, Tutorial
Citation:                      Status:                        Completed
                               Owner:                         NLM
Date of Entry:                20031119
Date Completed:                20040105
Accession No:                  PMID:                         14626039
Database:                      MEDLINE

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:01 AM

Mary,

   Two quick things.

1. Yes, veggies are allowed however in the intial stage of the program, they are not and people are actually encouraged to get into ketosis.....not good.....research truly is showing that while weight loss is the initial response, the body also has other responses that are not positive.

2. Being diabetic is like being pregnant. You either are or you aren't...there is no middle ground, no borderline.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other how folks eat. I just thought I'd pass along some of the information that I hear from hubby when he comes home from work...the ongoing research findings.

Peace,
Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:14 AM

I am impressed by the ignorance of what the Atkins diet advises. The propaganda machine is working well.

Such confusion over what ketosis is, a normal metabolic process of breaking down fats - perhaps if I call it lypolysis it will be clearer? - produces ketones. These do not accumulate in the blood - they are excreted. You can even get sticks to test for them in the urine - that is what happens in normal people - ketones leave the body. If a type 1 diabetic goes into ketoacidosis that is really bad news - but that is a state of ultra high blood sugar and no insulin production. Can I make the two conditions any clearer? An 18 year old just leaving school with A level G.C.E. Biology ought to be able to understand and explain the difference no trouble.   

Reserch funding for ivy league university nutrition departments would come from - where? Not companies interested in maintaining consumption of their profitable foodstuffs by any chance? Call me suspicious if you like but I doubt the veracity if the source is tainted by money interests.

By the way - severely limiting carbohydrates is not an accurate description of the Atkins diet. 400gm of the prepacked salad I bought for today represents 12gm of carbohydrate. The lower limit for Atkins induction is 20 gm, so you can have one pound in weight of mixed salad and select from a list of about 35 other vegetables to make up the rest of the allowance. A normal limit is 50 gm of carbohydrate a day. Try piling up that amount of the salad and vegetables as detailed in Dr Atkins books for ongoing weight loss and then you might understand why I am unable to take the tosh written about the diet seriously.

Honestly - you only have to walk down the street to see how fat the general population is becoming - it will take me some time to reduce down to what I regard as a normal weight because I could never lose weight on diets formulated on standard ideas of food groups ond dieting. Theres another industry that would hate to see a reduction in carbohydrates and weight loss become a painless process - the diet clubs and diet foods suppliers. Their funding of reserch into nutrition would be both obvious and suspect, now wouldn't it? Finding a way to eliminate obesity would be the last thing they would like to see happen.

Fortunately I have a metabolism which has been able to cope with what I now realise are excessivly carbohydrate laden foods, so I can lose 1 to 2 pounds a week if I eat about 50 gm of carbohydrate a day.

Try working out the amounts of different foods that represent 50gm of carbohydrate and the amounts of vitamins they contain either naturally or added during processing and you might just start to get some inkling of the choices that ought to be made in order to achieve a healthy diet. Remember 50 gm is considered a level for ongoing weightloss, not maintenance.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:59 AM

Such confusion over what ketosis is, a normal metabolic process of breaking down fats - perhaps if I call it lypolysis it will be clearer? - produces ketones. These do not accumulate in the blood - they are excreted. You can even get sticks to test for them in the urine - that is what happens in normal people - ketones leave the body. If a type 1 diabetic goes into ketoacidosis that is really bad news - but that is a state of ultra high blood sugar and no insulin production. Can I make the two conditions any clearer? An 18 year old just leaving school with A level G.C.E. Biology ought to be able to understand and explain the difference no trouble.

I'm not impressed by such obfuscation and dismissal of sound medical concerns regarding the unnatural state of events when the body starts producing more ketones than those generated by a normal broad-based diet. There are few humans on the planet who would "normally" eat such a high-protien low-carb diet as Atkins, Tarnower, and others promote. Atkins promotes it as "lifetime eating." Normal omnivorous diets were fine until our world filled with labor-saving devices and sedentary jobs. Had we lived decades or centuries earlier, we would have worked off the fat and carbs we took in at meals. This is still found in many regions of the U.S. where human labor is such that they don't get fat from the high carbs and fat that are in their food. For example, Amish cooking. All food production has an environmental impact, but meat production is particularly high. Rather than increasing that impact with these environmentally expensive diets, better to get people up and moving and stop trying to compensate for sedentary lives by eating "higher on the hog," as it were. (Here's the parent organization to that meat link above.)

I'm not sure where you live for your "A level G.C.E." stuff, but here is a British Food Standards Agency article link to start with.

The dieting argument is fully engaged, and those who support high-protien low-carb diets can make it sound pretty darned plausible and reasonable. Here are a couple of their sources:

http://lowcarblisa.tripod.com/thescarsdalemedicaldiet/id21.html

http://www.ketosis-ketoacidosis-difference.com/

However, don't stop reading with the rosy picture those sites paint. You don't want academic sources? You think the commercial ones are somehow less 'tainted'? (There was no indication of sponsorship on the cites I posted--they came from medical databases at the university library, a state-funded institution).

Here's a bit from an egalitarian iVillage Diet Expert column:

Because people almost automatically associate low-carb diets with high-fat foods such as bacon and pork rinds (and we know how we feel about them!). But ketosis is really defined by what you leave out of the diet (most carbohydrates), not by what you put in. You can make a ketogenic diet much more healthy by paying attention to the kinds of fats that you include. Sure, you can achieve ketosis by eating lots of unhealthy high-fat stuff, but you can also achieve it by eating healthy fats such as omega-3's from fish or olive oil.

Here's a Disney owned family-oriented magazine (like Disney is non-sponsored or biased?) It rates diets from 1 fork (low) to 5 forks (highest).

Atkins Diet: [snip]

Overall Nutrition:
Ketosis does keep away hunger pains, but it also makes for bad breath, fatigue and nausea. Carbohydrates are a necessary part of any diet because they provide the body with fuel in the form of glucose. On the Atkins diet, glucose levels in the body can become very low. It should be noted that excessive levels of ketones in the blood stream can cause unconsciousness and, in severe cases, lead to a coma.

Supplementation:
Large doses of Atkin's own brand of vitamin and mineral supplements are recommended, which is not necessarily a bad thing. At the very least, you'll need a daily multivitamin and about 1,000 milligrams of calcium to make up for what the diet lacks.

Success/Failure Rate:
There is no documented evidence in peer-reviewed journals of the success rate of this diet.

Overall Rating: 1 Fork.
Good way to jump-start weight loss, but it's not a long-term eating plan. I would recommend staying on this eating plan for no more than one to two weeks.

on another FamilyFun page about Dean Ornish's diet:

Overall Nutrition:
This is a sound eating program, but there are some prominent pitfalls. For example, Ornish recommends avoiding all meat, including chicken and fish. Many deep water fish are an ideal source of omega-3 fatty acids--good fats that help keep cholesterol levels in check--and avoidance of meat could lead to an overall deficiency in iron, zinc, and other vital nutrients like B vitamins.

Overall rating: 2 forks.
There's increasing evidence that very low fat diets such as these may not be for everyone, and may result in nutrient shortfalls. If you are planning to take this approach, I would strongly suggest talking with your doctor or a nutrition professional, like a registered dietician or nutritionist.

One more interesting blurb:

Is Low Carb A Healthy Diet?

In a word, no! Essential vitamins and nutrients come from a balanced diet and low carbohydrate diets are certainly not balanced. You can only get many essential nutrients from fruit, vegetables and grains - low carb diets only allow very small amounts of fruit and veg - definitely not enough to give you your recommended daily allowance. The Atkin's diet claims to clear up all manner of ailments, but the bottom line is these diets are lacking in nutrients essential for good health and the high level of protein puts a huge strain on your kidneys.

Low carb diets are also likely to encourage yo-yo dieting, cycles of losing and regaining weight, which has been shown to be a health risk.

Dietitian Says:
"Diets that recommend we cut back on starchy carbohydrate are an 'in vogue' means of losing weight and have gained a lot of attention in the media. However these diets could actually be harming our health in the longer term. The American Heart Association have expressed concern that their high fat content, particularly saturated fat, increases the risk of heart disease in those who follow these diets long term. Low carbohydrate diets go against all the current healthy eating principles and are deficient in many vitamins, minerals and dietary fibre, as they restrict the intake of fruit and vegetables. There are also concerns that these diets, if followed long-term, may increase the risk of kidney, bone and liver problems.

A balanced, healthy diet combined with exercise is still the most effective and safe long-term way to lose weight. However the results are gradual and require perseverance. Quick fixes such as the Atkins diet do not hold up to scrutiny and at present there are no long-term studies on the safety or efficacy of these diets."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:16 PM

Gosh - you really think that bringing in negative arguments such as yo you dieting,( expresly against the instructions in the Atkins books I have read ), and the 'information' that people think the diet is about bacon and pork rinds, and that the production of meat by intensive farming methods,( which is something not aproved of in New Diet Revolution ) - you really think that is an argument against Atkins?

You seem to have no knowledge of how fat is metabolised, and are happy to repeat that ketosis causes a build up of ketones in the blood and leads to diabetes type 1 ketoacidosis, with eventual coma. Utter tosh.

You repeat that Atkins only allows small amounts of fruit and veg - that is nonsense. Low in dietary fiber? You are just trying to make a point - and failing - look - why don't you read the book, and then, when looking for arguments against it be a bit subjective - anything describing the Atkins diet as a quick fix
should be suspect for a start - and just because exercise burns off fat and carbs doesn't mean that the diet is aceptable in a situation where people don't get fat on it. It really doesn't follow.

It is such a pity that so much irrelevant and negative information is included in arguments against Atkins. It might put people off even investigating what it actually entails or encourage them to try a crash diet on pork rinds, and then to claim that the results are due to following the Atkins diet.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: John J
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:51 PM

A very intersting thread indeed. I've learnt, and am learning, lots.

DtG: if you're free tonight (Weds 1st) there's a sing at the the Park Gate in Over Peover. If you'd like to come we can have a chat about sensible eating / exercise regimes, drink some songs, play some beer and generally have a pleasant evening.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:07 PM

This started out discussing blood and body sugar levels. It's degenerated into another discussion of the Atkins diet, and I'm tired of "my way or the highway" statements such as "Anne" is promulgating. Insults are not now and never have been debate, no matter what politicians believe.

Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:23 PM

Lowering carbohydrate consumption has had some really good effects on the blood sugar control and other blood related things such as cholesterol for some people, according to what I have heard and read.

Poor old Dr A and other 'medical but not diet' people have worked out how to reduce weight and improve the metabolisn over and over again, reinventing the wheel- rediscovering the low carb diet, only for the establishment to rise up and swear black is white in order to discredit them.

My way - as you might put it - it is to gradually reduce your weight to a sensible amount, eating fresh salad and other vegetables, a small amount of fruit, using olive and sunflower oils, all types of fish and meats, other protein sources, a bit of cheese - I happen to drink very little that is not just water - but I would never try to stop anyone drinking whatever they like. I would worry if it was a bottle of spirits a day, though.

Surely anyone can see that associaion of a low carb diet with eating saturated fats and consequent heart disease is not an argument against low carb diets?

Eating protein does not put a strain on the kidneys - look up how the kidneys work in a school Biology textbook if you don't want to believe me - the big clue is that they reabsorb what the body needs back into the blood, they don't remove impurities. It is a really efficent way of working.

If I get stroppy it is because claims are made, associations are assumed, you get someone writing there is evidence of this and no evidence of that - sneer sneer sneer - I'm a totally typical Aries character - no I don't believe in astrology - its just that they happen to have got me down to a T. Start to be unfair and you have this little fat old woman glaring up at you and starting to argue. Fortunately I argue down to most people, because I still have a better memory than most, and I can spot a non sequitur - and spell it too on a good day - so whilst I remain compos mentis I will cheerfully risk making a fool of myself by getting involved in a public debate bacause someone is not playing fair by another party unable to defend themselves.

The insults are surely coming from those who don't give a damn for the health of the general public?

I have found out why I got so fat after decades of thinking it was my fault - believe me, finally finding a way of losing weight and improving how I feel has been so easy, but I will have to be losing weight for months - years even, to get back to normal. A well balanced diet resulted in my being morbidly obese at 50 years of age. If I suceed in halving my weight I'll let you know. It will not be soon.

Atkins a quick fix - pull the other one. It might eventually have bells on.

Anne - that is me, no need for ""

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:47 PM

I agree with Rap. "Anne" doesn't want to discuss anything, she wants to point fingers and promote the diet. Nothing else will satisfy. She argues just like another annoying mudcatter I've tangled with recently, yet that one describes herself as slim (from all of that smoking). They argue like two peas from the same pod. Hmmmmm. . .

Anne, the floor is yours. "You" this and "You" that and dogamtic accusations with no substance except the one book you're pushing don't make for interesting conversation.

Do you know anything about music, or are you here just for the BS?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:49 PM

P.S.--I'll take back the music crack about Anne. Since one can now search on guests with the new database, I just ran a check, and I see her in a lot of British discussion stuff in the music threads. We don't cross paths often--but that's a good thing, in this instance!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:02 PM

Now, now, children - no tantrums on my thread please (except from me of course) :-)

Only Just read your note JJ - and I was free tonight:-( Back from the Islands I see! Son #2 did not make it to Lewis till Saturday btw - at which point in time I guess you was on your way back?

Quick update. I went for the fast slouch tonight and managed just 2 minutes out and 3 minutes walk back:-( Never mind. I can add 1 minute at a time and ir will only be 4 weeks before I am back up to 10 mins out!

My experience of Atkins was only the first 2 weeks where the carb count is seriously low and it made me ill. I know I wasn't right when I couldn't make it to the first floor of Waterstones book store without stopping for a rest. Put me off really although I must agree with whoever said that teh rest of the diet does allow a lot more carbs. Decided it wasn't for me but it does seem to work for some.

Remember though that a diet is something you are either on or off. What is needed is a lifetime commitment to eating better and exercising. The only real way to loose or control weight is to ensure that input is less than output and then, when at your preferred weight, equal to output. The only real way to do this for life is to make sure you eat and drink whatever you want or need IN THE RIGHT QUANTITIES!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:11 PM

The Atkins diet has totally to do with blood sugar levels. It is not for many people. If you read, as I have suggested many times, about metabolic body typing, and if you search out some anthropological/biochemical/ other researchers than poorly designed and even more poorly interpreted medical research...you will find out all kinds of interesting things. The research behind a lot of this Atkins low carb fear is based on God-awful research -- and refusal to do the simple research that would answer many questions because of lobbies, entrenched thinking etc. All the while lamenting the obesity epidemic, the diabetes epidemic, etc. The set of questions involved in this discussion will, when properly answered (and they can be now by connecting the dots) revolutionize health and the very future of medicine (and pharmaceuticals) for the world. It is not trivial. It is at the core of metabolic processes. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:00 PM

Just puting sincerely held beliefs rather forcefully in the face of media spread - er whats the opposite of hype and not really rude - whatever it is,in the face of that.

As I pointed out - (quick check yes I did )

Dr Atkins did not understand why his diet works.

He reports, and so do people using his books that the usual tests done on blood these days show improvements, lower cholesterol and greater control of sugar concentration.

The loss of weight should never be needed really - I am going to have to be on a weightloss program for years. Doctors have been rubbishing low carb for centuries now they really ought to start to look after us better.

We can be healthy and maintain our desired weights by avoiding all those dense carbs - do you wonder that I am developing conspiracy theories?

Drat time for Baldi on BBC radio 7 and I have to get it on the web.
Bye

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:19 PM

Good to find you still hanging in here Dave. Sounds like you know what you're doing. Me too. It's not so much a problem of finding the path, it's staying on it that is, I reckon. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:22 PM

I nearly went into kidney failure after losing 40lbs on the Atkins diet. As it was I wound up on steriods for 9 months to save them and to get my blood pressure back to normal. IMO, it's way too out of balance.

Anyway, we've had a lot of discussion on it this thread; and, this one.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:19 AM

Here is some stuff by Dr Mary Enig...read up on her work..she has a Ph.D. in biochemistry..took on the soy lobby...she is a great believer in coconut oil for starters. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM

http://www.mercola.com/2002/aug/17/saturated_fat1.htm

She also is into butter from grass-fed cows. There is no doubt that animal husbandry is ..well, not being used at all in these force fed, disgustingly crowded situations. That isn't what most farmers want..I doubt it anyway. I can not believe that a well-cared for dairy herd, for example, free roaming in idyllic paradise situations, such as exist still in western Washington, cause any environmental damage at all. Manure can be a problem, but there are solutions. Smallish herds, local markets, a family working together but not overworked (ideally)...what is wrong with that?

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM

Feed lots, Mary, those are the problem. The farms you describe aren't typical any more of the way meat gets to the market. Feed lots concentrate the waste, and disease, hence one of the reasons for high regular doses of antibiotics. Then there is the hormone dosing that is to encourage faster growth, and depending on whether you want marbled meat or lean meat, different feeds and exercise.

If you ever drive through Amarillo, Texas, or east of Deming, New Mexico, or various places around Lubbock, etc. (this is just this part of the Southwest, there are other regions like this around the U.S., I am sure) you'll understand how horrible this kind of life must be for the animals confined there. And any people who live within miles of the places.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 04:30 AM

Latest update1 Cycled 15 minutes on the road this morning. Came back with a pulse of 120:-) I will stop posting updates after my next weigh in this weekend...

Couple of things I have remembered and realised on re-reads. I have no axe to gring at all againsy poor old Dr Atkins. Having read his book I think he is greatly mis-represented as he does not say carbs have to be avoided. It is only the first 2 weeks that they are minimal to 'get over the addiction' as he says. Said before - didn't work for me but lots swear by it.

Where me and Dr A. or any other diet prescribers are at odds is with the 'cut out [enter the diets bugbear]' statements. Nothing, absoloultely nothing, should ever be cut out of a lifestyle unless it is doing you serious harm. If you want to eat potatos, eat potatos. If you want a bacon sandwich, have a bacon sandwich. If you want a beer, have a beer. AND THEN QUIT WHILE YOU ARE AHEAD:-) Don't carry on doing it until it becomes harmful. It's hard at times (look at my self confesed lapses!) but it works.

The other thing mentioned earlier is the GI - Glycemic Index. I have found this invaluable. Even the little quirks! Did you know, for instance, that chips (fries to all but the UK!) have a lower GI than other types of cooked potato? Why? because of the fat content! The fat slows the absorbtion. Armed with this knowledge you can eat chips - But remember that that is you fat for that meal as well! So - fries don't go with the burger. They are INSTEAD of:-)

Feeling better by the day

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:58 AM

If the healthiest vegetables and whole grains were grown in filthy disgusting conditions, what is wrong? The food itself or the conditions it is grown in? We absolutely need to change the conditions our meat and dairy comes from...and that means we should be prepared to pay more, perhaps quite a bit more, for food raised properly. It doesn't mean we shouldn't produce it and eat it under healthy conditions. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:17 PM

Right. But producing it under healthy conditions takes more space and costs more money. It cuts into the profit margin.

Truth be told, growing most of our produce is just as hard on the environment as our meat. Huge monoculture fields, pesticides, chemical fertilizers, polluted water, loss of top soil.

We'd be much better off if more people grew their own produce, if more people hunted their own meat, and ate food in season or learned to can for the offseason, and not waste billions every year moving tons of food from one side of the planet to the other just so we can have fresh peaches and strawberries in winter and oranges in the middle of the summer. It tastes like cardboard anyway if it was picked so early to still be viable when it gets to market. If people hunted their own meat, they'd learn to cook more cuts of meat more ways instead of "cherry picking" the finest cuts and letting the rest go to dogfood.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 01:03 AM

LilyFestre...what is this about no borderline diabetes --strictly an either/or thing? How do you define diabetes? I define it as a process that is probably (I am talking about type II) ongoing for decades before a capacity is reached and higher blood sugar levels are reached. But even then it is a continuum for many people..maybe not everyone..some probably go from 100 to whatever overnight..but I suspect most people from 110, to 111....eto to 130, 135, 140...and some arbitrary point is picked and the person is called diabetic..what am I missing here? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 07:52 AM

Your body has the ability to process sugars effectively or it doesn't...there really is no middle ground. See?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: mg
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 11:47 AM

Not at all. Perhaps you have 50% efficiency, or 25% or 10%...I have never heard anyone ever state it was all or nothing. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 12:39 PM

Diabetes treatment involves a process of constant monitoring because of all of those faulty fluctions in the body's processing of sugars. Otherwise, you'd just go to the ultimate worst-case-scenario treatment and stay there, right?

To revisit one aspect of the thread earlier, there is a lot in the news this week about dangers of the Atkins diet. I won't post the article, just the link.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 09:27 PM

I just went to the 'dangers of Atkins diet' article.

The things it says about the benefits of the diet are all true as far as I know, and you might think they should be calling it a good thing - but the description what the diet involves is not right.

You might find my earlier comments abraisive and unpleasant - but there are so many lies being presented as facts that I feel justified in pointing out rather forcefully that reading the books is essential. On the diet as described people could become very ill.

The amount of carbohydrate allowed per day is 30gm, equal to one small potato it says. What rubbish.

Today I have eaten half an onion, half a sweet pepper, mushrooms - didn't count, maybe 8, two tomatoes, 5 oz of lean steak, 4 oz of chicken, and 10 oz of mixed green salad a couple of eggs and some cheese, with olive oil and lemon juice. I then added a few small boiled new potatoes from the family dinner, as I have already lost 2 lb this week so I must eat a few ounces of denser carbohydrate vegetables and tomorrow I'll probably have to add an apple as well.

Is that what you'd expect from what the media tells you is the Atkins diet?

I eat everything either fresh or, if suitable, buy it fresh and keep it in the freezer for a few days until needed. It feels like a really healthy diet. I don't get headaches, and as for all the dire consequences predicted - I can't remember when I felt as well, to be truthful. Not just OK, really well.

Anyone into regular exercise can eat rather more than I do - I eat about 50 gm of carb on a normal day, regular exercisers are suposed to eat up to 90 gm in ongoing weight loss mode. Anyone not as overweight as I am should not lose as much as I do, but I want to take some pressure off my knee joints, they ache in the damp weather.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 03:11 AM

is this a diabetic dietetic dielectic ?

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 04 - 01:28 PM

Had a cooked breakfast in Asda today as we were out shopping early. Then, after shopping went into Mancheste rto walk round the European market - Had 3 bits of 'Tapas' and a glass (well - plastic cup) of Rioja. Gets back about tea time to a call from Mother inviting us to the pub for a meal to celebrate her birthday tomorrow! Not looking good for the weigh in but every intention of eating sensibly and having no more than 4 units:-)

Having a jog(ish) in the morning. I will post after that and let you know.

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Talk about body sugar levels anyone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Sep 04 - 05:34 AM

Definitely more than 4 units - About 7 or 8 by my reckoning. Had swordfish steak in a wonderful coriander sauce with new potatos and veg. Managed a good 3 mins fast slouch this morning so building up nicely. I always do 5 minutes warm up on the fixed bike first btw and then walk back as a cool down.

Weigh in? ... 205lbs! 1 less than last week so guess something must be right:-) Anyroads - Thats it from me on this thread (unless anyone wants to really rattle my cage;-0 )Hope to post in about 6 months saying I have kept it up and am down to my ideal weight. We can but hope...

Cheers

DtG