BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 04:35 AM

Americans shouldn't worry about being swept up in appalling generalisations. According to some, if you are English then you must be a relative of Oliver Cromwell as well as being personally responisble for every incident our army has visited on our neighbours since time began (in another thread, someone actually said the first Norman invasion of Ireland was the first English occupation).

The point I am trying to make is it's all bollocks. Some Americans think dropping cluster bombs on Iraqis is a good idea, some do not - so people's indignation when being lumped in with the 'other lot' is understandable. These generalisations say more about the people uttering them than they do about the people being targeted by the comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 06:29 AM

Americans do tell good jokes against themselves in my experience - but generally they are about regions and States. I've heard plenty of Texas jokes and Yankee jokes, and my impression is that Texans and Yankees are able to enjoy them.

But maybe the USA as a whole is too big and too varied and uncertain of its collective identity for that kind of thing. I've never heard any good European Union jokes either (I don't mean ones about bureaucracy and that, though I haven't actually heasrd many good ones there either).

And behind all this there's a difference between jokes which are friendly and jokes which are contemptuous. Smiling cheerfully at a joke that is intended as an insult is not necessarily the right way to treat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 06:44 AM

dianavan, now you've gone and told all our secrets!   Listen up folks; with one foot on either side of the fence, this lady knows what she's talking about ;-)

In fact seventy per cent of Americans of voting age didn't vote for Bush

Sheds a bit of a different light on the situation, don't it? Thanks for that, McGrath. And by the way, here's your attribution ...

QUOTATION: As far as criticism is concerned, we don't resent that unless it is absolutely biased, as it is in most cases.
ATTRIBUTION: John Vorster (1915–1983), South African politician, prime minister. Quoted in Observer (London, Nov. 9, 1969).

Funny, as I re-read my own words above ie People outside the US see the situation there a lot more objectively - (ie minus a whole whack of fear, anger, pride, cultural conditioning etc) I was thinking - right. We have our own whacks of fear, anger, pride, cultural conditioning to contend with instead.   *sigh*   I felt so much better when I just KNEW I was 100% right   ;-)

We Canadians in particular love to feel superior to our bigger, richer, stronger neighbours, and the making of snarky remarks is the only field in which we consistently outstrip them.

Hmmm I can think of a few more, actually;

* shovelling snow
* swearing at snow
* swearing at snow in awful to godawful French
* growing hockey players
* growing figure skaters
* growing moose
* growing polar bears
* growing beer
* growing peace
* growing pot
* conceiving kids on ski lifts
* conceiving kids in canoes
* really gettin Inuit

Ok on that note it's on with the woolies and out the door ... Venus, Jupiter and the crescent moon are having this absolutely heavenly menage a trois out there, right now! I kid you not ... check it out!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:02 AM

Brucie, are you aware that Hillary Clinton has somehow lobbied the blow-up doll industry to such an extent that one cannot obtain a Hillary Clinton blow-up doll ANYWHERE! Not even on Ebay! I am chilled by the degree of influence that woman has and I find it deeply disturbing. God help us all if she ever becomes president!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 11:33 AM

I do not understand why people feel the need to generalize about any group. It is almost always negative & divisive. The thread that was referred to was the one that caused me to become less active in Mudcat.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: jimmyt
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

Only Little Hawk would be concerned about access to a blow up doll. Take heart,buddy, I will send you mine when I am finished with it. You may want to lysol her a bit but otherwise, good as new

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: jimmyt
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM

I must caution you, Little Hawk, those snow shoes we AMericans have heard you Canadians wear, may puncture her in the hear of passion, so be judicious

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:50 PM

Jimmy, you are a gentleman and a scholar! And you are so right about the snowshoes. Skates are even worse. I generally make a habit of doffing all outdoor footware prior to engaging in such activities. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:07 PM

I do not understand why people feel the need to generalize about any group.

Making generalisations about groups of people and things is and always has been a normal part of how we deal with each other. Sometimes it's done as a way of structuring the world, sometimes it's done in fun, as a kind of game Sometime it's done in hate and contempt, and when that happens it needs to be sat on hard. But that's no reason to rule it out in other cases.

"I love folk music" is an example of a valid and useful generalisation. But of course it doesn't mean that there aren't some types of music that can reasonably be described as folk music about which I am less than enthusiastic. "Mudcatters are a good bunch" - but some of them (very few) are not too nice at all.

I continue to be bewildered why anyone should have got aerated about a thread such as "Why are Americans fat?", but a lot if people did. Would a thread asking "Why are Americans so sensitive?" be equally likely to draw fire? I won't risk it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: bbc
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 09:36 PM

Primarily, McGrath, because it's misleading & unfriendly. I, for instance, am American & am not fat. The other reason is that there is no good purpose in saying it.

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:19 PM

But if it had been "Why are Morris Dancers so fat?" it would have been equally untrue about quite a few Morris Dancers, but I doubt very much if there'd have been many people getting upset. It wouldn't have been seen as an insult of any signifcance, or even as an insult at all.

Or, I suspect, if it been "Why are Australians so fat?" Or Tongans for that matter, to name a country where being fat is considered a good thing, on the whole.

I rather like the term "traditionally built", which is the term used in Alexander McCall Smith's excellent series of books set in Botswana.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:21 PM

But if it had been "Why are Morris Dancers so fat?" it would have been equally untrue about quite a few Morris Dancers, but I doubt very much if there'd have been many people getting upset. It wouldn't have been seen as an insult.

Or, I suspect, if it been "Why are Australians so fat?" Or Tongans for that matter, to name a country where being fat is considered a good thing, on the whole.

I rather like the term "traditionally built", which is the term used in Alexander McCall Smith's excellent series of books set in Botswana.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 01:32 PM

L.H.: You still have not got my message, which should be clear enough even for an intellectual such as yourself.

I personally don't give a damn what people in other countries think about our president! We just had an election for president, not a popularity contest (though Bush handily won the popular vote too!)

As to getting out and about, I just returned last month from three weeks driving through Scotland and Ireland. Is that out an about enough for you? I didn't hear one negative word about the President or the United States in either country. I admit, though, the press was not too kindly to Bush. So?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 02:03 PM

Both countries enjoy the revenue generated by tourists. They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them. You wouldn't hear anything negative. But thats because they're smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 03:42 PM

Stereotypes afford us the luxury of not thinking. But, eventually, they will extract the PRICE of our not thinking. (Jean Harris, author of Stranger in two worlds)

Doug, why is it that you right wing types just don't understand that we are NOT bashing America? We are bashing Bush. Bush is NOT America!

We didn't invade the wrong country, We didn't blow a huge surplus by giving it to the rich,We didn't run up an astronomical debt, We didn't lie about W.M.D. BUSH DID!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 04:25 PM

No, it isn't just a matter of not biting the hand with the credit card. It's also a matter of being friendly to strangers, which is pretty common in Ireland, and I imagine in Scotland, and that's genuine friendliness.

I am pretty certain that, if I'd run into Doug on his travels over here, I would have avoided talking about those kinds of things, once I'd twigged how he felt about them, because it would just be an unfriendly way of treating a guest. Here on the Mudcat it's different, because we are all at home here.

Now I suspect that if some other Mudcatters were to make the same trip they would find a whole lot of people who'd be happy to share their opinion about Bush, and probably buy them a drink to show it wasn't a matter of having anything against Americans.

What people do, more especially in Ireland, is test out where the visitor stands before deciding how open to be about this sort of stuff. Some people think there is something dishonest about that. I think it's just good manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 04:28 PM

Bush is America Kendall.

I believe it was about 282 electoral votes worth of America.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:15 PM

No, Martin, this is America and if the majority of voters believe this nonsense, then they are, indeed, idiots and the generalizations aren't too far off:

"Bush supporters apparently live in a world of their own The Program on International Policy Attitudes (pipa.org) found in surveys done in September and October that, contrary to established and well-publicized facts:

- 75% believe Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda.
- 74% believe Bush favors including labor and environmental standards in agreements on trade.
- 72% believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or a program to develop them.
- 72% believe Bush supports the treaty banning land mines.
- 69% believe Bush supports the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.
- 61% believe ff Bush had known there were no WMD he would not have gone to war.
- 58% believe the Duelfer report concluded that Iraq had either WMD or a major program to develop them.
- 57% believe that the majority of people in the world want Bush reelected.
- 55% believe the 9/11 report conduded Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda.
- 51% believe Bush supports the Kyoto treaty to conlrol global warming.
- 20% believe Iraq was directly involved in 9/11."

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:21 PM

No greg F. those are words that you cut and pasted here.

They have no basis whatsoever to be believed and the fact that YOU posted them here even makes them even less credible.

Why should I believe this organization who did this survey at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: *Laura*
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

I feel sorry for all you Americans who DIDN'T vote for Bush and who are now being grouped into the stupid category.
You obviously realise the French do have a word for entrepreneur - and are therefore alright in my book!

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:41 PM

They have no basis whatsoever to be believed and the fact that YOU posted them here even makes them even less credible.

Now, that really is amusing, considering the absolute shit you consistently post.

Why should I believe this organization who did this survey at all?

Well, its a University of Maryland study, for one- check the URL- one helluva lot more credible than your proven lying sacks of shit Boy George & his handlers, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

FIGHT, FIGHT!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 05:53 PM

That doesn't mean anything and so what if it is the University of Maryland.

By the way. Bush won. Maybe it was for other reasons.

Like because Kerry is a big loser.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 06:04 PM

That doesn't mean anything and so what if it is the University of Maryland

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Thanks for the corroborative evidence of rampant idiocy & invincible ignorance on the rise in the U.S. I appreciate your assistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 07:34 PM

get a life loser

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:05 PM

Ah, now we've again heard from that well-respected and courageous political analyst "Martin Gibson".

That's right, "Martin"--Bush is America, just like Thatcher was the UK.

But it's possible some Mudcatters---- (and anybody else who can think)---- may differ.

Sorry, "Martin", if the distinction is too complex for you to grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 08:26 PM

"Bush is America" - now that really is a nasty thing to say. It's just a way of stirring up hatred against The States. If peopoe around the world ever started to believe that was true it would be a sad day.
.................

"L'etat c'est moi" that was Louis XIV.

"Apres moi, le deluge" le deluge" - that was Louis XIV.

And Louis XVI? They chopped his head off. These things take time, but in time they happen.

(Actually Lous XVI's last words on the scaffold were pretty fine: "I die innocent of all the crimes laid to my charge; I Pardon those who have occasioned my death; and I pray to God that the blood you are going to shed may never be visited on France.")

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 01:23 AM

Even an intellectual???? Just what are you suggesting when you say that, Doug? :-) (Is it as bad as being a "liberal"?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:29 AM

You obviously didn't happen to run into Boab when you were in Scotland, Doug! In fact I'd guess that you kept the conversation well clear of politics?---and Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:20 AM

I didn't know where to put this...so here it is...xx..e

"THOSE WHO CAST THE VOTES DECIDE NOTHING. THOSE WHO
COUNT THE VOTES DECIDE EVERYTHING." ....................Josef Stalin

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:41 AM

That's a beautiful quote... THE TRUTH!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 09:13 AM

The surest way to enslave a people is to # 1 convince them (from birth) that they are free. They will then assist willingly in perpetuating their own enslavement and will help to police each other at the same time. This can effectively be done through a controlled media, the use of fear directed at various exterior "enemies" of convenience, and the encouragement of conformity in every mode of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 10:56 AM

because they think they are all generals!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 10:57 AM

or should be!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

I agree. Would all Americans approach the microphone, one at a time so that we can talk about them individually. We have 7000 odd people talking about the election and various issues today so please try and answer all questions quickly and succinctly!


Tomorrows news will be full of how America has slowed to a crawl to answer questions and how much the microphone & broadcast people are making.

sigurd :)

Because you know America is famous for its genuine interests in the aims and cultures of the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

That yours Little Hawk? It sounds as if I'd read it, or something like it, before. Pretty true anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:07 PM

No, that was Sigurd.

I would like to digress for a moment and generalize about penguins. They are kind of funny looking. They waddle. Their modest outward demeanour conceals an inner furnace of rampaging lust. They are definitely a great threat to society, and someone should do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 03:45 PM

talking of stereotypes - some peole are amazed that Mr Red can demonstrate brain cells - but it comes with the territory - if I was going to complain about it I should dress in "ordinary".

BUT When you turn up at a session with even a red bodhran the actuality of the drummer's skills exceeds the expectation - usually.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 08:09 PM

Sigurd the Icelandic Dragon-Slayer?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are we generalising about Americans?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM

Throughout the western EU, this past summer, (from tabloids, to radio, to main-stream press) the common thread was an overwhelming "Kerry will Carry the States!"

Delightfully, amused to find an ignorant western EU eating hubris-crowbird-pie this fall.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle