BS: Iraqi elections.

Subject: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:17 PM

Isn't it pathetic to hear our politicians bothin the UK and USA screaming for fair and "democratic" elections in Iraq not to be postponed, in order to give them selves some hope of escape from the nightmare they've created.

Given that the numbers of insurgents now fighting in Iraq are believed to outnumber coalition forces, how do they propose to provide security for the polls.
We can expect to see whoesale bombing and shooting of poll queues, although this is never mentioned by our politicains.
Its obvious that our leaders no longer care a damb what happens to the Iraqi people, so long as they can get out with "their integrity intact".

The big joke, or should I say tragedy is, that if these elections do take place and as seems likely the Shi'ites gain overall control, how long will it be before Iraq becomes an Islamic republic and so called democracy consigned to the dustbin of history.

Would we not have been better to let evolution and the Islamic fundamentalists take care of Saddams removal,or was it to stop the formation of an Iraqi Islamic republic that we became involved to begin with?.......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:30 PM

Heck, I think Bush should just contract out the election to Diebold. That way no one would actually have to go the polls...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: mg
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:45 PM

The insurgents might end up driving us out. I don't know. It will not benefit the Iraqi people one bit. But they will remember that they were a democracy almost -- and it will happen sooner or later. We did not secure the country when we could have done it more easily. So who knows what the future will bring. The near future, perhaps a lot of death and destruction. The more distant future is way more hopeful. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 07:55 PM

Mary..You sound confident that the future will bring democracy.

I would have thought the examples of our own societies, where any hope for real democracy seems to be receding daily, to be replaced by further attacks on our civil rights, might have given you pause...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 10:49 PM

Having gone this far we owe it to the Iraqi people and ourselves to make the effort. If the Iraqi people are buffaloed by the insurgents, that won't be good. But if they take their country into their own hands, I'll be prepared to give Bush and Blair the credit. I think PM Tony Blair has been eloquent on the reasons for being there, agree with him or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:18 PM

The elections will take place as scheduled. When the Iraqi military and police forces are strong enough the coalition forces will begin withdrawal (over the next three or four years) and Iraq will govern itself. Iraqis will be the better for it.

To allow Saddam to continue his reign of terror, as Ake proposes would have been disastrous for the Iraqi people and for all peace loving people.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:25 PM

Wasn't there someone a few months back saying that the US would be outta there by the New Year--which is upon us?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Bert
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:33 AM

Pssst, wanna borrow some voting machines?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:59 PM

All the pundints were predicting huge problems with Afganastan elections and US elections.   Both went off without incident.   Even Michael Moore packed up his bag an went home.

Not one word was said on Russian elections.    Let's see- election fraud, a people's revolt, a supreme court ruling, and a re election.

Seems to me that the pundints kind of missed that one.   The same people who now say a free election in Iraq is not possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Piers
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:00 PM

This may be of interest to some of you.

Piers

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:26 PM

I'm sure there was "someone," brucie. But I don't know who.

As Larry K. points out, there were those (many)who predicted that elections could not take place in Afghanstan, but they did.

There may be problems with the Iraqi election, but it will take place on schedule I believe.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Fishpicker
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:23 PM

I am more inclined to worry about the preservation of the "democracy" in this country (USA). In case you haven't noticed that our constitutional and civil rights are under full frontal attack by the current administration. Iraq, a costly diversion for said attack!


                           FP

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 05:46 PM

Wow, fishpicker, glad you pointed that out. I think that may be the first time on the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 06:46 PM

So if the democratically elected Islamic governement says "Push off", the occupation forces will pull out immediately?

I have a feeling somehow that that isn't what is envisaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:15 PM

Did any of you right wing morons even take the time to read the link provided by Piers?

I know it was long and complicated, and your concentration was probably broken by your finger nails scraping on the floor boards,but surely you could have forced your wives to read it to you and explain the meaning.

The responses from the right on this thread say a lot about their lack of political understanding and maturity.

People say that innocence an naivity are endearing traits in the American population, and these so called traits are often used as an excuse for the crass nature of politics in the USA, but the more I see of these people, especially those here on Mudcat, the more I recognise a beast lurking behind the bonhommie.
A mindless beast that cares for nothing but self,locked in a cage of its own making,with no future but to growl threats at anyone who comes near...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Fishpicker
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:20 PM

"Wow, fishpicker, glad you pointed that out. I think that may be the first time on the Mudcat."

DougR

Well OK Doug, looks like you finally got it!

                              FP

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 01:56 AM

For those of you who never click on a link, here is part of what I just read in the New York Times. Iraq is scheduled to have elections on December 15th. Given what one reads here, how is this purported election supposed to be of any significance insofar as 'democracy' is concerned? I'd like to hear others' views on this.

"It is democracy, but in a distinctly Iraqi style. This country is in the final days of a campaign that is at once more ruthless and more sophisticated than anything yet seen here.

"Candidates have been killed, even as slick television spots run throughout the day, showing office-seekers who soberly promise to defeat terrorism and revive the economy. Cellphone users routinely get unexpected text messages advertising one candidate or another. Thousands of posters decorate the capital's gray blast walls, including one that shows a split face - half Saddam Hussein, half Ayad Allawi - in a blunt effort to smear Mr. Allawi, a former prime minister, and his secular coalition.

"Who does this man remind you of?" the poster asks.

"In a sense, it is the first full-scale political contest here since the fall of Mr. Hussein. The Sunni Arabs, who largely boycotted the January election, are now campaigning fiercely, and voter turnout is expected to be considerably higher as a result. All told, 226 political groups will compete in the elections, representing more than 7,000 candidates.

"The winners will form Iraq's first full-term government since the war began, and face the task of unifying an increasingly fractious and violent nation. Any American plan to reduce troop levels will depend on the success of that effort.

"So far, the campaign has been as turbulent as any endeavor in Iraq. In the past two weeks alone, 11 people associated with Mr. Allawi's group have been killed, including one of its leading candidates in southern Iraq. On Tuesday, gunmen stormed five northern offices belonging to the Kurdistan Islamic Union, killing two party members and wounding 10. It is often hard to distinguish political killings from the terrorism that has become a part of daily life here, but in both cases, the parties have accused rivals of carrying out the attacks."
Pure dee Appalling

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 11:24 AM

akenaton - 06 Jan 05 - 07:17 PM

"Given that the numbers of insurgents now fighting in Iraq are believed to outnumber coalition forces, how do they propose to provide security for the polls."

What on earth is the basis for this ludicrous statement?

Past predictions of gloom:
- The January elections were never going to take place.

- The CPA was never going to cede authority to the elected Interim Government.

- The Interim Government would never agree a draft constitution.

- The Iraqi people would never vote in support of the draft canstitution.

- The elections scheduled for 15th December will not be allowed to take place.

- The elections if they do take place will be rigged.

- Etc, etc, etc,......

So far every step down the road has been taken, no doubt this one will as well. The Sunni population will vote and a uniquely Iraqi political process will get underway. If that duly elected government states that the presence of foreign troops on Iraqi soil is no longer welcome, then those troops will depart, whether the same goes for tall those other fighting foreigners that Ake refers to remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 11:33 AM

"uniquely Iraqi process", Teribus? 226 parties? 7,000 candidates? Killing rival candidates? Iraq has no democratic process, unique or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 06:57 PM

"Democracy in Iraq"   USA style.....

"Sunnis!...Vote or Die!!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,A
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 07:03 PM

Ah yes, lets not read anything but the New York Times or the Washington Post. Oh yes, don't forget the Guardian and moveon.org.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 07:12 PM

First, Iraq was to be a model democracy which would spread throughout the middle east. Then, Iraq was to be a democracy. Now, we are hoping for a stable government whether it's a democracy or not.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Guest A, I read widely. I'm curious about your reading habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: pdq
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 08:22 PM

...this is a copy'n'paste and is intended as humor...



1. The Wall Street Journal is read by the people who run the country.

2. The New York Times is read by people who think they run the country.

3. The Washington Post is read by people who think they ought to run the country. 

4. USA Today is read by people who think they ought to run the country but don't understand the Washington Post.

5. The Los Angeles Times is read by people who wouldn't mind running the country, if they could spare the time.

6. The Boston Globe is read by people whose parents used to run the country.

7. The New York Daily News is read by people who aren't too sure who's running the country.  

8. The New York Post is read by people who don't care who's running the country, as long as they do something scandalous.

9. The San Francisco Chronicle is read by people who aren't sure there is a country, or that anyone is running it.

10. The Miami Herald is read by people who are running another country.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:09 PM

The December election won't make much difference, even if, as is likely, lots of Sunnis will vote.

What really will tell the tale is if the Sunnis' proposed amendments to the constitution are passed or not--since the constitution as it stands just puts off many of the important questions of government.

If their amendments are all rejected, that will probably mean a huge increase in support for the insurgency.

But it's much too early to predict success or failure for an Iraq democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: mg
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 11:55 PM

do some of you hope that this fails? That they fall to the terrorists and/or the fanatics? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 01:17 AM

"Given that the numbers of insurgents now fighting in Iraq are believed to outnumber coalition forces, how do they propose to provide security for the polls."

Akenaton - What is the basis for this ludicrous statement? Or, as normal, is it just something that you have conjured up.

"Sunni's... Vote or Die" - Well that would be progress as in the past under Saddam it was "Everybody Vote or Die". Only then there was not the choice of 226 parties and 7,000 candidates it was one Party and one candidate.

Iraq Survey reported by BBC:

"Interviewers found that 71% of those questioned said things were currently very or quite good in their personal lives, while 29% found their lives very or quite bad.

A degree of optimism

When asked whether their lives would improve in the coming year, 64% said things would be better and 12% said they expected things to be worse.

However, Iraqis appear to have a more negative view of the overall situation in their country, with 53% answering that the situation is bad, and 44% saying it is good.

But they were more hopeful for the future - 69% expect Iraq to improve, while 11% say it will worsen.

Although the majority of Iraqis were optimistic about the future, the poll found significant regional variations in responses.

In central Iraq respondents were far less optimistic about the situation in one year's time than those in Baghdad, the south and north.

The BBC News website's World Affairs correspondent, Paul Reynolds, says the survey shows a degree of optimism at variance with the usual depiction of the country as one in total chaos.

The findings are more in line with the kind of arguments currently being deployed by US President George W Bush, he says."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM

As Ron says , the coming elections will be meaningless except to provide cover for a humiliating retreat by US/UK.

The real story is unfolding daily in Iraq.
Today another secret prison was discovered by Iraqi and US officials, in an Interior Ministry building.
It contained over 600 prisoners in "overcrowded conditions". Many were immediately released.
According to Iraqi officials, several had endured severe torture, including electric shocks and having their finger and toe nails pulled out.

This is the brave new world that the Iraqi people are being asked to vote for, not democracy but a place of terror controlled by militias who have infiltrated both army and police.


But what do Bush and Blair care for the condition of the Iraqi people so long as they get their sorry arses out of there intact.

As ever Teribus's "facts" as presented in the BBC survey are subject to interpretation, as well as being cherry picked by Teribus.

Make up your own mind here

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,BOAB
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:53 PM

Under military occupation no election can be other than farcical, and with no purpose other than window-dressing or the "election" of a new puppet regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:30 PM

Well, if 67% of Iraq trust its religious leaders and army, then it looks like the Mullahs have won this war.

Since everything about the democractic process in Iraq has been rigged, it is doubtful if the Iraqi people will get what they want. It will be democracy according to Bush, in Iraq.

Bush has defiled the name of Christ and the name of democracy. What more does he have to do before people begin to realize that he is the anti-Christ? If so, does that mean we should prepare for the second coming?

mg - The Iraqi people lose any way you look at it. I'm sure that they are not thanking the U.S. for improving their standard of living or putting more food on the table. Are you sure you aren't clinging to hope as a way of alleviating the collective guilt that many American are feeling? How do you achieve democracy when you are just trying to survive from one day to the next? Most Iraqis never even dreamed of democracy. That was GWB's idea to justify invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,Howard
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:41 PM

It won't work, it can't work, it will never work.

Those Iraqis are too stupid to form a democratic government.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:50 PM

Oh, sure, Howard...

Man, they'd have to go a long way to be as stupid as you.

I've met plenty of Third World people. They did not generally strike me as being stupid. They deal with real gut-level reality. You deal with Nintendo, McDonalds, DVDs, the Internet, and "Survivor". You live in a society that is beyond pathetic in its obsession with material goods and its moral and spiritual bankruptcy. You don't even HAVE a real democracy. Your elections are a joke, your political parties are shills for corporate policy, your votes are meaningless. You control nothing. You are wage animals in search of mindless entertainment. You live in the Matrix already.

You are living in a world of dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:04 PM

It's not that the election is not possible. It is easily possible. It's not that only Bush and Blair could do this. Any idiot stupid enough to tear down an entire govt and build it up from scratch in the space of a few months could do this.

What we are saying is that it won't do a bit of good.

As for staying in Iraq another 3 to 4 years--that is out of the question. We have to raise taxes and start the draft for that to be possible and the American people--idiots that they are for favoring a war none of them had any intentiion of fighting in themselves--won't tolerate that. Bush went thru so much trouble to make this war as bloodless as possible by spin, deceit and refusing to allow the press to do its job (e.g. no photos of flag-draped coffins arriving in America are permitted) that he is now expected to continue this bloodless war. "Survivor--Guatemala" must be allowed to go on without interruption. The instant he tells these people, "I know I said no draft but the situation has changed" is not going to cut it and he knows it.

The military will be pretty much out of options by 2007, the war has to be over by then. The pubs cannot go to the polls in 08 with this war still raging--unacceptable and they know it. The war MUST end before then. All signs point to the US exiting Iraq en masse by 2007. If it goes on past then, there is going to be a serious reckoning between pissed-off voters and the Republican Party.

The troubles is, 07 or 08 is way too soon for us to be pulling out. It takes at least a decade of constant recruiting and training to raise up an army capable of defending a nation and there is no way the Iraqis can be ready by '07. We will pull out--we have to--but Iraq will promptly degenerate into civil war. What will happen next is that whoever has the largest, strongest, most brutal militia will take over. All we can hope is that they won't hate us.

The US is already, I'm sure, backing the militia they believe has the best chance of taking and holding power and who will not view the US as the Great Satan. At least, if I were Bush, that is what I'd be doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:05 PM

"...this is a copy'n'paste and is intended as humor..."

Good, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: number 6
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM

"I've met plenty of Third World people."

Me too ... and they've done pretty damned good for themselves here in the land of plenty .... some have even have bought MacDonald's franchises. They now live in big houses in the burbs, the women shop at Creeds, the men drive big cars, they drink Dom Perignon, they have wide screen T.V.'s ... yeah, they sure do love our whimpering, comical facade of democracy!!

Sorry LH, just had to throw this in.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:15 PM

Bush lied. No brains were found in Peace's head.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:30 PM

Guest Howard must be Howard the Duck

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:35 PM

I didn't say the elections will be meaningless--they just won't be anywhere as significant as what happens later--especially whether the Sunnis, having participated in the election, feel they have been shut out of government.

At this point, the answer to that would be pure speculation--something Mudcatters never do---right?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:50 PM

Darned right, Number 6. They're better at it than most of us, because they grew up in a place which helped them mature some before they reached adulthood. That is my point. They are willing and ready to work HARD. How many of us are? A few.

We are encouraged to remain immature, as far as I can see, and many of us do. Not all of us, by any means, but many. I consider myself pretty immature next to most Third World people I've met.

I am not in the least surprised that Third Worlders would want to come here and enjoy our affluence. What I'm saying is, that our affluent society is way out of touch with reality in a psychological sense...although it's very advanced in a material sense.

People always want to move up materially. That's natural. We all want to, if given the opportunity. But what have we lost by being born into an unreal circumstance where a child's companion is the TV?

Notice how many of our greatest North American entertainers came out of a poverty-stricken or humble background? It made them tough. It gave them drive.

Bring up an animal in a cage and overfeed it every day and present it with little or no natural challenges, and what happens to it? I think that's kind of what has happened to affluent middle-class North Americans since WWII ended. We got spoiled.

I do consider our elections a farce. I wish it weren't so, but that's how I see it. The parties do not represent the people, and the way the system is set up, they can't. They represent those who fund them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:55 PM

I agree with you 100% LH .. well said.

I'm glad you got my point.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:46 AM

Poll shows Iraqi optimism (from the GUARDIAN)

Under military occupation no election can be other than farcical (Boab)

I disagree with the statement in this general form. The 1949 election in the occupied Germany was not at all farcical. Military occupation is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for a farcical election.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:04 PM

I don't know how you would have an election without military occupation in such a troubled place. You wouldn't have an election, you'd have tribal warfare. And to say that Iraqis do not dream of freedom? Shall we ask them? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:17 PM

Everyone dreams of freedom. I've been dreaming of it ever since I was old enough to walk. Maybe even before that. Yeah, probably...

Germany in 1949 was a rather different situation, Wolfgang. That war was definitely and unquestionably over. Everybody knew it. And virtually everyone was very glad that it was over. They were ready to embark on a new, peaceful, social experiment, and to form a united society.

Iraq is not like that in the least. Iraq is an unholy mess of an ongoing war with a population divided against itself and a hated foreign occupier who is not there to "keep the peace", but to secure the oil resources. Germans had much hope for the future in 1949. I don't think Iraqis have much hope for the future in 2005.

My feeling is that their war is just one small chapter in a war that reaches far beyond Iraq. It is not the resolution of a great conflict, it's the beginning of one.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,boab
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:35 PM

---and I hope that Little Hawk's final words---and my own last posting---are wrong. The black clouds, however, seem to be coming from that direction...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:50 PM

Let's wait and see then shall we. I am of the same opinion and share the optimism of those 71% of the Iraqis polled - Black clouds indeed, bloody alarmist, just another doom and gloom merchant.

Little Hawk's post of 13 Dec 05 - 03:17 PM, only lacked the stage directions at the end:

(drops handkerchief and faints)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM

Wait and see Teribus ? Wait for what?.... Democracy?

I would guess you're a bit long in the tooth to wait that long!!
Little Hawk posted a wonderful message and your attempt to dimminish it is pathetic.

I notice you haven't addressed the imprisonment and torture in the Iraqi Interior Ministry buildings.
That's the future for the people of Iraq

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:12 PM

Well, one thing is fir sure... An election won't stop the civil war that is underway in Iraq...

Like I've said, when the US leaves, this civil war gonna heat up... There's no alternative other than staying forever and that will mean 4 to 5 American deaths per day forever until the US finally stepas back and lets the Iraqis get it on...

It should be noted,. hwever, that the only way this unique country has been able to enjoy any level of stability since WW I was with a strong man at the top...

Democracy, I'm afraid, is not possible in what is now Iraq... Maybe break it up into three countries and maybe but this will take a decade of US comittment, a lto of luck and differnt thinking than got us into Iraq in the first place, which mean democracy right here in the good ol' US of A, which ain't too much more likely...

I mean, lets get real here... The brand of democracy we'[re tryiong to export to a country in civil war is one that is totally corrupted by the present Republican Party... Hey, not that I like the Dems either but the current crooks-in-power are no example of what democracy is all about... If I were an Iraqi politican trying to figure out what this democarcy stuff was about and looking at the US as an example I'd be a mighty confused Iraqi politican...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:29 PM

I doubt that trying to cut Iraq into three countries is the answer either. I'm curious - does anyone know of a circumstance when such an imposed solution has worked? The Powers That Be - not just the US - have tried it various times: Korea, Vietnam, Germany, even Israel, could be cited.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:20 PM

Yes, I am sure that some Iraqis once dreamed of freedom. I'm sure that now they would be happier with homes and families that were not severely damaged. Freedom, however, is never a matter of choosing one ruler over another. The Iraqis most definitely have a regime change but you can hardly call that freedom.

Do you honestly think that 'American freedom' can be exported through violent means?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM

"Bush has defiled the name of Christ and the name of democracy. What more does he have to do before people begin to realize that he is the anti-Christ? If so, does that mean we should prepare for the second coming?"

That is just what the Religious Right allies of the neo-cons ARE doing!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:15 PM

You know what, fooles-t, I wish the "rapture" would occur if it meant collecting all these very intolerant so-called Christains...

Come get 'um, Jesus!!! They are a bunch of hyopocritical jerks who wouldn't know you if you had a name-tag... Yeah, they are wrapped up in judegment, revenge, condemnation, shunning and all the other stuff you warned true Christains to be aware of...

BTW, Jesus, don't do that 2nd comin' stuff now 'cause the supposed Christains will lock yer ass up in a heartbeat an' it'll be back to the cross fir ya... Some things never change...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:20 PM

The 'Millenium thing' has happend before many times in history. Always been a real nasty mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: mg
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:56 AM

i think democracy, or steps toward it in very difficult circumstances, can be incubated using powerful means that can include vigorous responses to violence from insurgents, factions, etc. If people are protected, and this could mean martial law, and probably usually does, from the worst of their countrywomen and men, and encouraged to raise a few chickens and sell the eggs, (pre bird flu), go together on some drilling equipment and mine for emeralds, take in each other's washing, well, the answer is yes. There has to be an umbrella of protection for it to take root. Otherwise you have the Russian example where the mafia etc. takes over.

Do I believe that there is anyone on the face of the earth who behaves him and herself who does not deserve democracy and freedom? No. Hell no. Have I put my life on the line because I believe that, yes. Is it likely they will still take me up on it, no. There is no way out but through. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:10 AM

Bobert:

Your preferred method of government is anarchy. You are promoting civil war here in the US. Were you ever satisfied with anybody except for yourself?

All that trouble in France and now Australia is the beginings of civil war. People are fed up with Political Correctness. That is for Politicians.

I want leaders like GWB, Joe Liberman, John McCain who do what they think   is right regarless of how unpopular it might make them. You want the Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton types who say whatever they think people want them to say in order to gain popularity.

Welcome to your own hellish, fact devoid, spineless world.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:34 AM

Crowbar, you really must give some attention to your sad lack of knowledge of the English language, especially the meaning of words.

There is a vast difference between promoting and PREDICTING, which is what Bobert has been doing.

Given the situation in the US, his predictions might well be uncomfortably close to the truth. You have a huge number of citizens who are disenchanted with what passes for government, and it is not unlikely that, for lack of any political means of effecting change, they might seek change by other means.

You state:-
"I want leaders like GWB, Joe Liberman, John McCain who do what they think   is right regarless of how unpopular it might make them. You want the Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton types who say whatever they think people want them to say in order to gain popularity".

In the face of all the evidence, can you REALLY believe this?

The heroes you honour with your undying loyalty are wholly owned by corporate interests, and operate in the most cynical, dishonest, pseudo legal manner, to the sole benefit of those interests. Those you decry may have their own agendas too, but IMHO you don't keep a crook in charge because some of those who will apply for his job might also be dishonest.

What you do is can the bastard, and choose one of the honest applicants.

If there are no honest applicants, you change the conditions to limit the power of the next incumbent, so he/she can be held accountable.

It's not rocket science! Many smaller business organisations have done it in the past, with complete success.

You need a president who will break up the Corporate giants who infest your political scene. Then the US might be infected with a different kind of organism, called humanity.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:58 AM

Iraq opinion survey

Very interesting, especially the breakdown of the numbers into regional opinions. The clickable picture sequence shows the results.

Little Hawk,
of course the situation was completely different, that's the very reason why I did mention that example. Under military occupation no election can be other than farcical (Boab) as a general statement without looking at the context is simply wrong.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:06 AM

Crowbar, we are a long way from Civil War in Australia yet. We have some alcohol fuelled thugs who want to kick head in hot weather.

Today on TV mothers were seen calling for the mothers of these young guys to take away their mobile phones and not let them have the keys to their own or family's cars.

Was a bit quieter last night...

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:35 PM

Good point, Wolfgang. I shall have to reconsider and agree with your original statement. You were quite correct. One has to look carefully at the context and avoid making such a generalized statement, as you suggest.

The political survey of Iraq that you posted the link to is very interesting. A lot of food for thought there.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM

Election day going well so far.
Much less violence than last time.
Turnout appears to be even higher than before, with Sunni community joining in. Even trouble spots likr Falluja seeing enthusiastic voting.
If this is what the Iraqi people want, what outsider can speak against it?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 04:35 PM

Could we all agree that we wish them well...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 08:43 PM

Any reasonable person should wish them well. However, as I've pointed out several times already, there's a long way to go to reach stability in Iraq--if they ever get there.

Fascinating article in the Wall St Journal (again, that well-known leftist rag)--14 December 2005.

Pointed out that if the problem I cited amending the constitution to make it acceptable to the Sunnis is not resolved, 4 problems are likely:

1) Heavy Iranian influence in the Shiite south
2) De facto Kurdish state in the north causing friction with Turkey
3) More support for the insurgents from embittered Sunnis
4) The armed forces of each region will be able to go to war with any other region--over distribution of oil revenue, treatment of minorities (or anything else considered significant.)

By the way, the constitution as it now stands gives each region the authority to create "internal security forces"--in addition to police.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqi elections.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:05 PM

And the Kurds like the constitution as it stands, while the Shiites, with bitter memories of Sunni domination, see safety in regionalism--which is what the current constitution endorses.