Starting a folk club

Subject: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:41 AM

We are going to start a new, local folk club, when we find a suitable venue. I have started and run a folk club before so have some idea of what I'm doing, but I realised when talking to a few people in the chat, what a wealth of knowledge and experience there is here on the subject, so I thought I'd request input.

So........what have you found works? What doesn't? The issues we are looking at, apart from the venue are:
Charging
Frequency of guest nights
How often to hold the club
What night
How much to pay guests
Any other advice and comments you can come up with

I know you Mudcatters now, so I'm looking forward to lots of good replies!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Pistachio
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:03 AM

Lynne,
All I can offer first is encouragement and a warning...Make sure it's in a location where any form of performing licence is not going to be a problem! See' obit Samuel Smiths and LIVE music' thread.

Good luck to you...wherever you are...Please post your 'location' so distant mudcatters know where they might 'call in' in the future!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 07:19 AM

Lynne
I have pm'd you.
Les

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 07:31 AM

Pistachio, we are in North West Leicestershire. We're hoping the folk club will be in Ashby de la Zouch, or possibly Swadlincote. I'll announce it on here once it's up and running of course!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:06 AM

Good luck Lynne, I hope that you succeed.

I think the most important thing is to get together a core group who will support the club on a regular basis. That core group can then help to set the parameters for the club, such as frequency of sessions, what form they should take, etc. It helps to have a few very enthusiastic people involved - I and some friends started a singaround in Hertford not long before I moved to the States and it seems to be taking off, mainly due to the efforts of one particular person who has taken over publicising the event.

We'll look forward to coming over when we're next in the UK!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:39 AM

Start as a charging session to build up a kitty for a year, meet weekly.

In your front room if you must!!

find 4-6 good residents who can provide variety and artistry and between them can put on a good nights show.It helps if you are experienced performers.

Your clientelle will only come if its a good standard of entertainment you are offering, unless you are looking to become a singers club.

Guests vary but the big names are 150 - 300 + so you need a venue that can hold 60+

Good luck!!!!

Advice from an Old pro -no names,no pack drill-- I got was,

and dont take offence


Watch out for the traddies, they'll kill your club.

Make of it what you will.

What do I know? I've only had 4 years and now its two nights a week, see George Papavgeris's web site and link to St Albans folk clubs

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:45 AM

Thanks Jacqui. How many do you reckon is a good 'core group'?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:50 AM

We started off with four of us who wanted to start a session and I publicised it at other sessions and on the 'Cat. You need to keep going, even if, for a while, there aren't many people turning up, as these things quite often take time to take off.

It can help to put up flyers in local music shops and, if you can, the library. Let people know whether this will be folk, or a general acoustic session - that way newcomers will know what they're in for.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 08:55 AM

Don't forget to address the smoking or not smoking policy. Also the kids or not kids policy. Sounds obvious but either decision will encourage some and deter some. Try and find out the wishes of the majority of the crowd you hope to attract.
G'Luck.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,Vic at work
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:08 AM

Hi Lynne,
The best advice I can offer is contact other clubs in the area to establish friendly relations and not to book the same artists within a reasonable time frame.
The day you run is going to be down to you and the venue you choose (NOT in Albert Village, Please!)
Charge as little as is economically viable and pay your guests their worth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lastly check out www.youngnomore.free-online.uk and gis a bookin me duck.
Hope it works
Vic.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,MBSLynne
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:33 AM

Is Swad ok though Vic?? Thanks for the advice. Got plenty of guests who want bookings (though you are on the list of course!) just need to make sure of an audience!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 09:43 AM

Good luck Lynne.

When you have enough people turning up and paying; please think about how to keep them quiet and not moving about when your performers are performing.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

sounds like all those who want a gig should show their support for you first by just coming along. When they've been 4 times then give em a gig and pay em 75% of the door.

Gigs can be one 30 minute set of 6 songs

I did this and it worked.

The St Albans Spotlight club on Sundays works along these lines

Herga is a singers club and everyone pays, every night and most of the attendees are gigging artistes such as Johnny Collins, Kitty Vernon, Graeme Knoghts, George Papavgeris, Mike Sparks

Only pay what you can afford not what artistes ask, some have an over inflated ideaof their worth, in the end they are only as good as their pulling power.

I booked big names and got big crowds, small names small crowds, but charged realistic entrance prices, only one lost me money, so he came again at a reduced fee and things balanced out.

Where are you, I'll come for free as long as all attendees pay £4.! But then noone will have heard of me so I wouldnt expect any thing.

And absolutly no freebees, not even for singers.

Pete Coe is a great guy, he pays everywhere he goes as a floor singer/visitor.

Villan thinks otherwise?

Local 'stars' are your resident source if they want to truly support you.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 01:31 PM

Breezy
I feel that out of respect for the excellent artists who perform at my club for nowt, the least I can do is let them in for nowt.
I do encourage them to at least buy a quids worth of raffle tickets.

The club is succesful (music wise - money wise breakeven) and whilst I don't expect everybody to agree with the way the club is run, I can with the help of the artists guarantee an excellent night of music.

I also feel that the artists/paying listeners/and the organisers are dedicated to keeping Accoustic music live.

If I can do it in a very rural area, anybody can. I feel its a question of variety and balance of artists.

Having said all of that, I hold the same beliefs as you Breezy.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM

Good on you Villan.

but that is only the artistes that are 'billed' get in free isnt it? and you dont have 'surprise floor spots'

As I book one 'guest' I ask all attendees to pay, including residents , as most of us are artistes that way we support the project. You must have a largish number of pure 'audience' which we dont have.Therefore it can be said that 'artiste supports artiste' and that way 'artistes' are given exposure.

I could be wrong

When I have a larger 'audience' pool then maybe I can do as you as a reward for loyalty.

We had 20 - best att for 2005 - for Mike Deavin who did 2 x 35 minutes with all well written songs. He'll do another set without repeating on 13th feb.
£5 adm

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 02:10 PM

At Gainsborough Folk Club, we all pay on a guest night whether we are performing or not. Singers nights are free but we have a raffle. We get between 20 and 50 in the room although it tends to be less when we have a guest. Everyone who comes through the door is asked if they want to sing - even the Villan!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

Lynne

You might look at Hamish Currie's (mudcatter Hamish, not about these days) notes on starting a folk club (edited from a discussion on umf) at Starting A Folk Club. He also has other related topics on Lombardy Folk Music Stuff.


Mick

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:09 PM

You are such a pain in the arse Mrs sooz :-)

I probably get about 20 to 40 paying audience, the rest made up by the performing artists.

May I say that anybody who sings like me is definately not invited to sing lol :-)

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: treewind
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:17 PM

"Only pay what you can afford not what artistes ask"

Breezy, if you said that to Pete Coe (the same who you praise so highly a few lines later) you'd get a very different opinion. He's adamant that performers should charge a proper fee and not sell themselves cheap. Ultimately doing gigs at budget prices (or underpaying your guests, from the organisers point of view) threatens the livelihood of performers like Pete who does it full time and also devalues the whole folk business. Clubs and their audiences expect to get something for almost nothing, and then performance standards are likely to go down as you only book cheap guests.

Bideford folk club recently paid us MORE than we asked and afterwards we were talking to Jerry Bix (one of the organisers) and he suggested that a performer should charge either full whack or nothing at all
(e.g. for a charity). He said their policy is to build up their money on singers nights and then pay their guests the normal fee. They only have about six guests a year and it works for them because they have lots of enthusiastic singers.

That's unusual for a club that mostly operates as a singaround. We've done others like that for far less, but often that didn't matter because we were enjoying it anyway, like the Song and Supper at Wherwell which typically features whoever's recording at Wild Goose studios (just over the road) that weekend.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: stallion
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:33 PM

The Ayton Folk Club started with maggie , Stuart, locky and me sitting around a fire in the function room and within weeks snowballed until the place was packed with performers and audience, the bar took £1000 more on the "folk evening". Apart from being free to get in and fee sandwiches it was all a huge laugh, performers had a ball and anything wentdown with crowd ( including a jazz saxophonist). I think if you set out to have fun and have fun then, in my experience, the infection spreads and soon you will have packed houses. Performers like an audience and they will go where there is an audience.
ps
check out the tap and spile, monkgate, york, friday nights, it is a great session led by Steve Thompson of the disbanded Butter Mountain boys

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 03:34 PM

I play with the Boat Band, and we are generally very happy to play for a percentage of the door money( a high percentage) for clubs getting themselves established. Most performers who can draw a crowd will be happy to do this for you...and you presumably want performers who will draw a crowd?
    That is my advice...go for performers you really want, and ask them if they'll play for a percentage. Don't just stick to performers who quote low fees you think you can afford...there may be a reason why they are cheap!
   As for the early advice to avoid traddies....ignore it. I should avoid boring performers....they may be traddies or contemporary.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 04:55 PM

All artistes are negotiable, it maybe there livlihood but clubs are not beholden to them.As clubs we dont owe you the artiste anything but an opportunity to ply your trade, but if there is no demand, there is no trade.

Some clubs can have singarounds to support guest nights, we have a 2nd club for that purpose but still pay a guest on that evening too.
Singarounds are one step up from free sessions and I support the idea of you 'never get something for nothing' therefore chip into a kitty at a session then it may grow and be able to offer gigs to the the pros who will bleed em dry.

I never undervalue any performer I always have paid them them their fee, sometimes more depending on their pulling power, but its a twoway process and what I cant agree with is artistes causing clubs to loose money.
I salute Andy Irvine whose is the only artist ever to ask if we had taken enough to cover his fee. What a great guy and a fine example to others.
If only more performers would show such consideration it would help.

Clubs are struggling and that is a shame.

In the meantime I will run 2 clubs until June this year.

As an organiser I do not owe any artiste anything.
If artistes dont pull then they should look inwardly and recognise that they still have a lot of work to do to get to where they want to be.

I'll book almost anyone, but, they have to play ball.
I have seen one local club being bled dry over the past 2 years, and its shameful. No wonder it only books about 10- 12 guests a year. I book that number in 2 months.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Breezy. I can only afford what the market will take.
I have been running a very succesful club for nine months and have broken even. I don't have any surplus to pay artists who are doing a full gig. Its on the night. So if I don't get enough people, it comes out of my pocket.
I work very hard for nowt to provide a platform for artists to show what they are capable of, and gaurantee them a timed floorspot e.g. 20 minutes, 45 minutes or 90 minutes. I pay what I can afford for the 45 minutes and 90 minute floorspots.
For the 90 minute floorspots, I guarantee a flat rate and 80% of door takings above that.
I can't take the risk all on my own, the artist has to help me as well. If they can pull a crowd as Vin Garbutt can do we are all laughing, but if they can't I am crying whilst everybody else is happy.
3 months ago I almost had to sell my house because I wasn't working and move away from the area, which would have meant closing the club.

So to summarise
We are all in it together and if somebody doesn't pull their weight, somebody else suffers. I quite often wonder if it is worth it, when you get an artist who insults you becuase you pulled them offstage a little bit early, or somebody who thinks they are worth more than they are, or somebody who thinks they need a break but is not good enough, and all the petty politics that go with it, and my family helping me for nowt to man the door and do the raffle so that the club breaks even, even if they don't like folk music.

Tommorow morning I will reflect on what I have said and wish I hadn't done it, but I will still run the folk club to my best ability and rely heavily on the artists who are willing to unselfishly support me in what I am doing (and they know who they are - a lot of mudcatters). When that stops, so does the club. Simple as that and who has won. Me :-) cuase I can have lots of time to myself and my family.

Nighty nighty.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Wrinkles
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 06:12 PM

BEWARE: NOT SPOOLING CHUCKED ;-) DYSLEXICaHEAD

Boy have things changed since my club and festival running days ;-)

Much good advice above Lynne, and some absolute cr*p too, but you're a smart lady and you'll sort it out yourself ;-)

Of the two things not mentioned so far however the first is _LOCATION_.

A fledgling club just has to have a good location, serviced by several bus routes and easy access/parking for cars; a close railway station/tube is always good too if possible.

Bums on seats is what it's all about from the promoters standpoint, so make it easy for those bums to get to the seats. Check out an area with these facilties for a suitable venue or two (a seperate room's good but not essential, but a small stage and quiet private off stage area is almost a must) and then have a chat with the landlords. If you look to him/her like you can get a crowd in who'll buy drink he/she'll love thee ;-)

A club with a good reputation, a name, can be located anywhere it wants, but you've got to get that name first, and that begins with a suitable venue.

The Second point is _Promotion_. You've got to let folk know that your club exists and when it's on. This need not be expensive. From posters in instument/CD shop windows to a listing in the local "What's on" magazine/web site and wrangling an interview on local radio to talk about the new club, to simply letting the national radio folk shows know you exist and press releases to the local newspapers in your catchment area. These people want items to fill their space and air-time, so give it to them ;-)

Make a lot of noise about your opening night to the media, and keep in touch with them, keep them updated and informed, and make friends with as many as you can. If there's a folk show on the local radio, see if you can get a monthly spot to talk about whats coming on.

Some comments on what's be said by others;
I strongly disagree with Breezy about owing the artist nothing. The promoter owes it to the artist to have promoted and publisized the event and not relied on word of mouth to do his work for him/her.
A name can only draw crowds if the crowds know the name is there.
If a name performs and the crowds don not show up, then it is always the promoters fault for not publisizing the event. The artist is only responsible for the success of the evening in terms of _entertainment_ and _music_; the _financial_ success of the evening is totally the promoter's responsibility!

Also good resident, who can make a warm happy convivial atmosphere, who know how to _perform_, is a jewel to be treasued. NEVER charge such a person entrance fees, rather you should pay them something for turning up each week (and to make sure they do turn up too). Likewise if the resident views it as a job, they'll find you a filler when they're unable to turn up for their regular spot.

A moderate sound system that can handle multiple inputs, a few mikes, stands, speakers, and hi stools are a good investment too.

Barbara (Wrinkles)

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 22 Jan 05 - 07:06 PM

Artistes do have their own web sites and in the case of Bob Fox and Vin Garbutt are great at promoting their own gigs, in Vins case he puts out his gig list on every chair.

Many have expanding mailing lists too, as proved by the great Harvey Andrews

things have changed

Barbara has got the 'owing thing' arse to tit.

Its not the promotion part, but the idea that clubs owe an artiste a living by gigging them.
Perhaps she is one of those who I didnt gig cos she wanted more than I was prepared to guarantee.

night Villan, cheers.
May be a different Barbara, but I didnt owe her a gig.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:04 AM

"If a name performs and the crowds don not show up, then it is always the promoters fault for not publisizing the event"

That is a load of crap. I publicise all my evenings, with posters, handout dairies of the clubs forthcoming events, on websites, on radio, word of mouth. However, having done all of that, if the crowd does not turn up, I hardly think it is my fault.

Generally, I have about 40 people at the club each time, including the artists playing, which is not bad at all in this day and age.

"Of the two things not mentioned so far however the first is _LOCATION_.

A fledgling club just has to have a good location, serviced by several bus routes and easy access/parking for cars; a close railway station/tube is always good too if possible"

What a load of cobblers.
My club is a fledgling club (9 months old) in the most rural of places, no bus, no railway, no pubs (The only bar is in the club), very small parking area, and will seat max 80 people. Having said that, it has a very nice atmosphere to it.

http://www.marketrasenfolkclub.co.uk

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 04:02 AM

can't tell you anything about a club but if you are starting a song circle, decide the blue book issue right up front..if you want better music, it's up to you, but my experience is you won't have it if the books come out. If you want the communal experience, it probably doesn't matter then either way..mg

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:15 AM

Miya MCP! (aka Mick, or a meringue?)

I'm still about: mostly occasional lurking, but playing at the aforementioned Breezy's on 18th Feb. Thanks for the plug for the web-site. I'm in the process of moving it to tiscali - it'll be on http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/lombardy/index.htm and some of it's already there - but for now the addresses you give are stil valid. I'll have redirection pages to the new site for a few months at claranet.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Hamish
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:18 AM

"Miya"??? I meant "Hiya"

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:46 AM

No you're not a donut. I heard you'd gone off to forn parts again. Hope thinkgs are going well.

Mick

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:46 AM

I think you need to decide whether you want a folk club (which may welcome other performers and in my experience most do) or a "contemporary music club" most of which I think regard traditional song with considerable suspicion, and while perhaps assisting in the survival of the notion of music as something in which people participate (which becomes doubtful as soon as PA turns up) does little even to assist in enabling people in understanding or participating in their own traditions (or roots) much less in the survivla of those roots or traditions.

I may not be a brilliant performer, but I get by, and I did for a bit of a laugh go to a local pub which had open mic. I had checked it out previously and the material was contemporary, but mostly on acoustic guitar etc. It seemed openminded. As became evident, nothing written longer ago than the 80s was welcome. The audience didn't know it and didn't want to. Not a matter of standard of performance: they welcomed players of very limited ability. A matter of age of the material. But there were lots of people there.

If you want to go there, do so. But in my opinion it is not a "folk club". Folk music is not simply entertainment to be marketed to consumers. As one of the excellent and very traditional sounding songs by Pig's Ear (Kent based folk group of many virtues) puts it "we remember the old ways". They also do contemporary-sounding songs ("Sausage") but the roots are largely in the old ways. That is a folk club.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 05:47 AM

Greg Stephens has made a rather good point, that cheap guests don't raise funds for the club, because a). They are not well enough known to pull huge crowds, and b). They are sometimes not good enough to encourage audiences to come again to the club.

The other side of that coin is that most artistes are aware that selling themselves short does not inspire confidence in their quality.

Almost all performers will negotiate a price, but remember that they don't simply walk off with what you pay them as pure profit. If a man has to drive a hundred miles to do your gig, he is not going to be impressed with an offer ten quid more than his fuel costs. He will also have costs for publicity, an agent, and of course the vultures of the inland revenue will be picking over the remnants of his fees for their share. £150 don't seem quite so outrageous now, do it?

The club that I am organiser to, simply books fewer guests, of high quality, at fees that we, and they, can live with.

Hard to know which advice to follow, really, and you may now be more unsure than when you started this thread, but the bottom line is:- There are as many ways to run a folk club, as there are folk clubs to run. Just suck it and see, and if the flavour isn't right, try another.

The very best of luck with the venture, I'm sure that anyone who lays themself open to this torrent of advice, is going to succeed, and if I'm up that way, I'll come to your club too, to see for myself (probably early next year when I am put out to pasture).

Don T.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:24 AM

I'd like to ask Breezy exactly what he/she means by
"Watch out for the traddies, they'll kill your club."

I sing mainly traditional and traditional style music. If I am to be "watched out for" I will withdraw my support for the club.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:27 AM

"When you have enough people turning up and paying; please think about how to keep them quiet and not moving about when your performers are performing."

I'll say "Amen" to that. Most of the clubs around this area seem to think that noise somehow adds to the atmosphere. Like you, I disagree.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:34 AM

Treewind says "Bideford folk club recently paid us MORE than we asked and afterwards we were talking to Jerry Bix (one of the organisers) and he suggested that a performer should charge either full whack or nothing at all"

I can remember (a long time ago) when Paul Simon (on a tour of one night stands) reduced his fee to £15 because the club was a small one.

Being prepared to use a sliding scale in the early days doesn't seem to have affected him adversely.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:44 AM

Barbara said "Of the two things not mentioned so far however the first is _LOCATION_. "

This is something we are working on, Barbara. Ashby de la Zouch may not be the centre of the universe, but it is a fairly central town in NW Leicestershire - that's a major reason for trying to open the club there. Other local clubs tend to be in lovely little villages.

Frank L.
(Ashby de la Zouch for "Centre of Universe")

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:55 AM

Richard Bridge says "I think you need to decide whether you want a folk club (which may welcome other performers and in my experience most do) or a "contemporary music club" most of which I think regard traditional song with considerable suspicion, and while perhaps assisting in the survival of the notion of music as something in which people participate (which becomes doubtful as soon as PA turns up) does little even to assist in enabling people in understanding or participating in their own traditions (or roots) much less in the survivla of those roots or traditions."

In my opinion this is a rather narrow view. I hope the club will be broad enough to welcome both "traditional" folk and "contemporary folk". Since I do mainly traditional and Lynne and Ted's repertoires are also inclined towards trad. I doubt if we will open a "Contemporary Music Club" with narrow minds prejudiced against songs pre-1980.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Sooz
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:06 AM

Make it non-smoking (couldn't resist)

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: the fence
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:13 AM

And if you can make it child friendly that may also help.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 07:30 AM

Well thank you guys! I knew I could count on you! There's a lot of extremely useful advice there which we will take into account when we finally get together to decide exactly what we are doing.

By the way.....the proposed club is being started and will be run by me, el_punkoid_nouveau (Ted) and Eagle Wing (Frank). Frank has run clubs before, though I don;t yet know exactly what policies he pursued. The club that I (and later Ted and I) ran was exactly the way I like a club...it was purely singers/musicians, no guests...it ran once a month and was in a separate, upstairs room in a pub in Ashby. At it's height it used to get packed and we had singers accompanied and unaccompanied, musicians who played an incredibly diverse lot of instruments, story tellers, poets and even the occasional dance spot. There was no 'traditional or contemporary' leaning, we got everything. If you wanted to sing or play it, then that was fine. We didn't charge (It was called the Free & Easy Folk Club). Like a lot of clubs, it eventually dwindled and died, though it's 'ghost' still runs twice a year in the Volunteer gardens on the first Friday night at Sidmouth and now at Miskin on the Saturday night.

The sort of club I've detailed above, I don't believe would work now...things have changed as they always do. Frank wants guests, and I'm now inclined to agree with him so we will have to charge. We've had lots of support for the idea and I've had offers from an amazing number of performers to play for little or nothing while we're getting off the ground. At least two of the bands who have made the offer are among my favourites, so I feel very honoured by their friendship and support.

As far as venue goes, I don't want to have it in the bar of a pub because you get non-audience people who will talk and move around and make a noise and you can't bring in policies like non-smoking. We seem to be a bit restricted in Ashby...unfortunately, the pub where I used to run my club has converted the upstairs room into accomodation. I haven't told Frank yet (Keep meaning to ring you Frank) but Ted was in Sharpe's pottery Museum in Swadllincote last week, and they would love to have a folk club there...it's in an old bottle kiln. I think that would be a brilliant place to have a club (they do have a bar) though they will likely want to charge for the use of it.

Anyway...this is getting out of hand. Being a strong-minded person as I am....I will, as with everything, take in all the advice, accept and use what I agree with and ignore what I don't, so I'm not confused by all this input...keep it coming!! And thank you all again

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 09:33 AM

I think the ref to Traddies was that they can be boring and drive Jo Public away.

Listening to the history of the song ,where first heard by who to whom and what the weather was like is only of interest to the anoraks.

Vin Garbut is the master of inbetween song patter as are Derek Brimstone and Shep Woolley

To sit through a succession of 10 minute ballads can lead to day-dreaming and eventual eye-dropping-saliva-spilling and gutteral- snoring-syndrome.

A performer/floorsinger should contrast with what went before and not sing what he hoped to despite what preceeded.

Most of all, learn the song properly first, and let the diction be clear, still too much singing down your nose and inaudible lyrics.
Did I mention Vin again? Well its O K for him cos we only come for the patter!!!!

And please, none of this 'sorry I'll start again ' when there was only one more verse to go.

All the best Lynne ,it appears you've been there, done it , but no not really.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 12:09 PM

Vic...where are you? Why not Albert Village?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 02:25 PM

Breezy said, "I think the ref to Traddies was that they can be boring and drive Jo Public away."

I've heard plenty of long, boring intros to contemporary songs. This seems to me to be a very biased attitude. Surprisingly, I am often asked to give more information about my songs.

What I find far worse is when you've got people who request the same songs each week till the singers either have to get stroppy and refuse or they get fed up with singing them. And that can apply to contemporary as well as traditional stuff.

Frank

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

A useful antidote to requests for the same thing over and over again can be a amall store of parodies for the worst offenders. Like Clive Lever's about a hundred differnet versions of "The Wild Rover", including the one to the tune of "Stairway to Heaven", or "Oh no, not the Fields of Athenrae".

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: treewind
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:48 PM

"To sit through a succession of 10 minute ballads can lead to day-dreaming and eventual eye-dropping-saliva-spilling and gutteral- snoring-syndrome."

Exactly the same can be said for sitting though an evening of hopeless wannabe pop singers who come to a folk club because it's the only place they get a chance to play. Note I didn't say "to be listened to" - the only time I've been to a place like that recently, most of them left after they'd done their bit. Nobody came to listen, and I'm not surprised.

Quality control is certainly a tricky issue when running a club, but there's no simple solution like cutting out trad music or (and I've really seen this too) banning guitars.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 06:58 PM

I agree with the judgement of the young wannabee pop types, they send me a CD and I tell em straight,
' I cant hear word mate'

'Not for us, try the open mike down the road '

but you have to be able to find the diamonds among the slack

some of them are worth a listen .

I blame Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,Vic at work
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 03:20 AM

Hi Lynne,Here, at work, looking at Leicester Station. Why not Albert Village? Its an ongoing office joke, most of my (much) younger colleagues have no ides of the geography of their home county but they can draw maps of Cos, Disney world etc. When Albert Village becomes stale I shall hit them with Norton Juxta Twycross, Mean or what.
Hope the club makes it and we will definately come and support you.
Vic.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 04:07 AM

Guest Vic says "When Albert Village becomes stale I shall hit them with Norton Juxta Twycross"

What about Gryffidam and Nanpantan, then?

Albert Village is going very upmarket these days. When I first came to the area (nearly 40 years ago) it was often called "Borroknock" because of its poverty. Now it's becoming a desirable place to live -my stepson has recently bought a fantastic house there!

Frank L

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 05:32 AM

I hate to tell you this Frank, but desirable Albert Village isn't! It might have some nice new houses, but it's still a grotty little village. Norton juxta Twycross on the other hand...just give me a chance to go and live there!

Thanks Vic...hope to see you there then!!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,flintlock
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 07:29 AM

book Belinda Jones!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ross
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 10:35 AM

Has Belinda been speeding again?

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: EagleWing
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM

"I hate to tell you this Frank, but desirable Albert Village isn't! It might have some nice new houses, but it's still a grotty little village."

Not sure I agree with you, Lynne.

I'd certainly not try telling my stepson and his wife that. They love it there - it just ain't the same place. Excellent school too. (No folk club there, of course, and I doubt if there's a suitable venue for one.)

Frank

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM

"In my opinion this is a rather narrow view. I hope the club will be broad enough to welcome both "traditional" folk and "contemporary folk". Since I do mainly traditional and Lynne and Ted's repertoires are also inclined towards trad. I doubt if we will open a "Contemporary Music Club" with narrow minds prejudiced against songs pre-1980."

I have been performing songs I like in public for the last thirty years. I don't worry whether they are traditional, contemporary or a Burns poem set to a tune by Haydn - my main concern is that I like them, and I think that they will stand up well enough for other people listening to like them. Sometimes, they need a bit of explanation - so that the audience can appreciate what the hell the song is about.

Ergo, the Ashby de la Zouch club was always open to any performer, because that was how we all felt. And one of the most important things is to make the audience feel welcome - as well as having good beer - and Cider! - so that they will want to come back.

epn

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MuddleC
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:09 PM

-at last, someone has mentioned the importance of good beer and/or cider..
so far it's a club with... no smoking, no trads , no sandals, no guitars, no amplification, fixed seats , no cheese-and-onion crisps(noise factor), no intros, no 'beginners' , no singing down your nose, no reading the lyrics/music ,no kids and err,... no fun

seems to me some want it either as a venue for professionals plying their skills, or as an entertainment centre like all those converted city centre banks,

what's wrong with the 'pub' session,? sure some people sing/play out of tune, don't do stuff 'you' like, but at least they get up and have a go.
I must admit, a floor singer at one venue was so bad (in my opinion) that I decided I could do better and so found my voice.

It's interesting to note that there are different 'traditional' types of 'traditional' music... Iorish ,Scots, North Country, shanty, and to some people steeped in the sounds of one, any other sounds 'off'

perhaps that guy I heard murdering a jacobite song was doing it correctly, I try songs , and if I feel that It's not for me... I drop it and look out another. As I'm not out to make a living at it, perhaps I don't practice enough to 'learn' the words, instead paying attention to the melody 'in my head'.. after all I must have learned to read for some reason other than sorting junkmail
Perhaps one day I'll have the voices in my head too....

In the show-case venue the only winner is the one who gets the bar takings....
rule 1. NO -No Drinking

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ross
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:14 AM

Well said Muddle C

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:36 AM

Muddle C ,surely you are muddling

a 'club' where people pay to attend and therefore have expectations of the intending performer St Alban's 'Windward' Club on Fridays
with
a 'session' where it is free with no expectations except the opportunity for all and anyone to participate.

or a singers club where all pay to enter and are all encouraged to perform like Herga and the St Albans 'Spotlight ' club on Sundays where there is always a 'headline artiste too for the last 30 minutes

Tonight Julie Ellison plays St Albans, £5 admission and a full supporting line-up guarantees a great nights entertainment, chorus singing , trad and modern, where the performer can present their work in an ideal environment to be appreciated in.

Yes it is an art form.

she's appearing again on Sunday at our club for all aspiring singers

the Legion. st Albans

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MuddleC
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 02:20 PM

'CLUB' -noun
thick stick OR
association for pursuance of common interest OR
building used by such association OR
one of the suits at cards...

As for the first, mostly for use on politicians..
as for the second, a club can be as offical or unofficial as the members/associates deem, it is when MONEY is taken that things wobble, is it just to cover the rent of the place, or to pay a guest, or to pay a guest and make extra profit i.e a wage.
The third could be a garden shed, a pub bar or the top of Everest

I envy your ST Albans do's, and only wished that out here in the sticks that we had a large enough group of potential 'clubbers' , (I don't mean mentally challenged binge drinkers) which could support such things

Forget Ashby, let's see if the Royal Albert Hall is available........

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: treewind
Date: 05 Feb 05 - 07:22 PM

Two of the best clubs I know are both in the middle of nowhere. They're both monthly guest+floor singers affairs, with large rooms not in a pub (but having a bar)

It can be done but it's hard work.
One's in Sutton, near Biggleswade, the other in Saxmundham, Suffolk.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:36 AM

Fear not Muddle C.....our putative folk club in Ashby (or Swadlincote) will not be very many of the things you've said. We will quite likely have no smoking but anyone will be welcome to perform anything they like in any style or manner they feel comfortable with and on any instrument they want to bring with them. (Or unaccompanied of course) I agree with almost all of what you say. Like you, one of the things that persuaded me I COULD sing in public in the first place, was hearing someone so bad that I knew at least I was going to be better than that! The point of a good folk club of the type I'm hoping for, is that it is a mix of almost anything...like a good box of chocolates, there may well be ones you don't like, but you still buy the box for the ones you do, and sometimes you're surprised when you try a new one and it tastes better than you expected. Children will also be welcome....they need to start somewhere! We still have to check out venues and the qualities of beer and cider, but I'm sure on all the other points you won't be disappointed if you come to the club

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: MBSLynne
Date: 06 Feb 05 - 07:51 AM

And I forgot to mention that I firmly believe that a folk club is not just about the enjoyment of the hearers, but also about the enjoyment of the performers. Even if someone is bad...they may not know they are and they may be thoroughly enjoying themselves. Which is GREAT. That's how it should be. And we should all have courtesy and patience enough to sit and listen while they do it.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 07:02 PM

QUESTION for you: What besides 'folk club' can one call a folk club?? One of the founders doesn't like the word 'club'. I suggested that it's jargon everyone understands and that it does not indicate a club membership. He hasn't changed his mind. I have now suggested 'Folk Society'. Is that an improvement?

We are in the process of starting such an animal - whatever it will end up being called - and the start date is projected to be August 6.

Keep in mind this is a small community so some things that are standard in other communities will not pertain here. Juneau is small but has a vital music commmunity. We have more than 50 performers on the list and there will be more. Plus we have recourse to other communities only four or 8 hours away by state ferry.

Our format and facilities:

*A hall that will seat approximately 50 people, plus a few.
*Good offstreet parking. In Juneau, this is BIG.
* Start time: 8:00 PM sharp, ending about 10:30.
* There will be a 15 minute intermission.
*$5.00 charge, for everyone, performers included.
*At least once a month; later we will offer workshops, etc, in addition.
* We will offer cookies or other goodies, tea, coffee and juice.
* 20 minute sets; sometimes 3 or 4 20 minute sets and one 40 minute set
* There will be five or six performances per evening, unless there is a 40 minute set.
* Each evening will have a couple of "big guns" interspersed with someone new (but ready), someone young and starting out, and someone unexpected that many people have never heard.

Any suggestions?

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Shakey
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:14 PM

Call it Ashby Unplugged or Swad Unplugged and go after the kids.

When I was 16, and a Zep fan, Colin Scot blew me away. Thirty years later I'm still going to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:44 AM

I run Market Rasen Folk Club and may I say that the way you want to run your club, is so similar to mine. Same sort of capacity. Very rural. What may be different, is that I run mine in a concert style and have normally 5 artist play in the evening. 4 do 25 minute floorspots and one 45 minutes. The artist are different each time. It keeps a freshness about it, but does take a bit more work to administer, but well worth it. The music is pretty varied. There are no members in my club.
Last night we had almost 40 people attend including the artists. It was as such the official opening.
http://www.marketrasenfolkclub.co.uk


I really don't see the problem about calling it Club. Word of mouth will get people in if they like what they see.

Personnally, I think you need to be careful what you call it. What you call it portrays the style of music very often.

Accoustic as suggested above will probably widen the style of music that you put on and attract the youngsters (that can't be bad).

So stick with club.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 03:10 AM

Having been in a variety of organizations, I know that it can be difficult, to say the least, when some one or two are not with the group. The name is often a bone of contention, & shows with whom the group will often have problems in coming to aggrements.
    These days people think of a variety of things when a specific word is mentioned. If the founding members are a small group, and one is never going to be happy with "club" the person should be able to compromise. Sometimes if they refuse to compromise it is because they have a specific idea & will never be happy till they get it, & or likewise never be happy & always resent it. If the person is reasonble, then suggest only 3 or 4 of the best suggestions the group of founders can come up with & vote on it.
Recently, I assisted a friend establish a program which was all about "Traditional American Music." This in itself can mean 10 different things to 10 different people. However, I wrote a long list of words of similar meaning, and some words which were quite out there--you never know what will spur you brain to think of just the right thing. Will all the Music be "Folk?" Make a list of works for "Folk" and a list of words instead of "club" & use an online thesarus if needed. From that list, I made a list of potential names & narrowed it down to a few & gave it to my friend. She loved them all, but chose the one which made the most sense for her goal.
For what it's worth, "Society" is a bit less exclusive sounding than "club." What is the end goal? An open mike? A a regular jam?
Weekly or monthly? Business meeting then Jam? Business meeting, informal learning workshops for the various instruments led by members followed by jam?


For example:
Folk Music Club==
Folk:
Acoustic
Traditional
Folkroots
etc.

Club:
Society
Association
Guild
Circle
Lovers
Jamtime
etc.

   
          Good Luck, and may your organization be a fun & happy one!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM

Lots of good advice here Lynne, and most of it will either help you to plan, or tell you what not to do.

On the subject of smoking, we found a good way to deal with that. Two organisers being heavy smokers started to smoke on the landing outside the room. We made no comment about this, but, after about two weeks we found that all the other smokers followed suit.

We feel good about not telling them what to do, and they feel good about being considerate. Worth trying before imposing an outright ban.

BTW. In the new year, I shall beretired, and free to travel further afield. I would be very flattered to be invited to guest at your new club, and happy to do so for a small contribution to fuel costs.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:26 PM

Kaleea: "Will all the Music be "Folk?" Make a list of works for "Folk" and a list of words instead of "club" & use an online thesarus if needed. From that list, I made a list of potential names & narrowed it down to a few & gave it to my friend. She loved them all, but chose the one which made the most sense for her goal.
For what it's worth, "Society" is a bit less exclusive sounding than "club."

I like that idea, thanks, and I'll do it. Maybe we can come up with something that addresses and advertises what we are and will be fresh, to boot. (What does "to boot" actually mean? *G*)

Kaleea: "What is the end goal? An open mike? A a regular jam? Weekly or monthly? Business meeting then Jam? Business meeting, informal learning workshops for the various instruments led by members followed by jam?"

The End goal: A facility for people to become better known, a place where young blood - not to say, older blood - can become comfortable performing for others, a place to hear good music, a place for workshops, perhaps a very mini-folk festival.

Jam? At this point we're not planning to jam there. We have our regular jam circles and don't plan to change that. However, as time goes on, who knows what else will be requested or required.

Weekly or Monthly? At this point, we're saying 'monthly', but reliably so. A regularly scheduled night, such as First Saturday of the Month, or Third Saturday- you get the idea. Our idea is to train people to keep the event in mind.

"informal learning workshops for the various instruments led by members followed by jam? Yes, that is what we want from the workshops, plus perhaps songwriting, even theory.

Acoustic? That is the beginning plan. We've already had a trial run in the hall and we think we can do without a sound system. However, there may specific performes or instruments that need to be miked, and we are ready with that. The main thing that we want to avoid is the fully electric, boom bang crashing that keeps some people - like me - from many events.

Earlier we were thinking of having a separate night for the young, with a youthful emcee, but have decided to mainstream the younger crowd in order to encourage up and coming ones to aim higher.

One of the things I am excited about is our plan to introduce the music community to members of it in a different capacity. We want to pull the 'professional' musicians out of their comfort zones. For instance, we already have the commmitment of two people in a full band that they will come up with material that they can do together in a very different mode.

We are starting in the summertime so that by winter we may know what we're doing!

The Villan: There's a fairly good reason why our planned format resembles yours. I extracted - and printed - many posts on the Mudcat about Folk Clubs to show the other founders and I borrowed heavily from yours. Thank you!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:31 PM

Oh, and Don T, this is in Juneau, Alaska. We will be open to having guest artists. Plan your trip!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 03:49 PM

Crossed wires here, Ebbie. I was responding to MBSLynne re. Ashby de la Zouch.

Alaska would, I fear, be too far for my car, which is very reliable, but doesn't float at all well.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:21 PM

Well thats nice to know Ebbie and I wish you a lot of success. You seem as though you are very enthusiastic and that can only help to make it a success.

Les

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

Update:

I've come up with 'Juneau Gold Music Community'. See, the venue is on Gold Street, and our history began as a gold mining town. Plus, Juneau Gold rolls nicely off the tongue. I've shown it to only one person and after a bit of cogitation, she said she likes it. I'll see about the others (there are only four of us).

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

I have traveled quite a bit, and I suggest that you make it a practice to inform the hotels and other lodgings in your community about your club. If you can, put a flyer at the reception desk. Visitors like to get out of their rooms at night.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:02 AM

Well, we had our debut tonight and it was a brilliant success. About 45 people, all attentive and appreciative. Good talent too. I'm always amazed at the level of talent in this town. We had five different sets with a 15 minute "comfort" break after the third set. Finished the whole thing just before 10:00 PM. It was fun, and we already have people asking about the next one. We plan that one for Saturday night, Labor Day weekend. Since we don't have room for a large crowd, a few people out of town or out kayaking or camping or doing something else to celebrate one more day of summer won't cramp our style too much.

We're keeping our regular Friday night music, including our monthly 20 minute Showcase, but this is a great addition to our music scene.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:23 AM

Well done Ebbie, sounds like you are on a winner :-)

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:15 PM

Thanks, Villan. It was a happy crowd.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 05:22 PM

Well, last night we had our fourth Folk Night and it was our biggest by far!

I'd like some input- when you 'grow out' of your chosen venue, do you find another, larger space or do you 'manage' it?

To start from the beginning:

We got bumped out of our usual space this month because of a scheduling conflict with a play that was being put on the other side of the wall. We secured a roomier space at a commercial venue and did more promotion than usual because of the venue change. (We'll have to do the same thing next month because the play will still be running.)

Our 'old' space has a limit of about 55 bodies, and we've been pulling in around 50 people, which made us happy. Nice crowd, intimate space, good acoustics, a little kitchen for cookies and coffee during the intermission. Kind of a sweet place.

The 'new' space doesn't allow baked goods and coffee, except for vending machines in the lobby down the hall. Both have good parking.

Well. We drew 91 people! No PA system but the acoustics were good and it was a happy crowd so that wasn't a problem.

How do we go back to the old space? We like the old place. (At the same time our whole idea is geared toward providing a service for the community.) How do we put the cork back in the bottle? Dilemma.

I lay most of the "blame" on my shoulders because of who I booked. If I go back to the working plan I had devised, fewer people wil respond. I think.

My plan was to have, say, three wellknown set performers and fill out the bill with one youngsters' set and one set of upcoming but mostly unknown people.

Last night I had booked four known crowd pleasers with their own fan bases, and only one up and coming couple. I lay it to a blip in de brain.

When I book people I tell them that my aim is to pull the able perfomers our ot their comfort zones - for instance, if they have a band they usually perform with, I'd like them to perform by themselves or with another configuration. The idea is not only to show an audience the range of their talents but also to put them more on par with new performers who are practically petrified.

That part worked very well. They all were nervous, experiencing the heart in the throat, knee-knocking anxiety they had almost forgotten. All of them later told me they were glad they had done it.

The first performer played alone. He's a bassist/guitarist/vocalist/harmony singer in great demand. In addition to his talents, he has a thriving recording studio so he's well known indeed. He came alone with just his acoustic guitar. We loved him.

Then came the debut of two singers with mandolin and guitar. I was so PROUD of them- they put on a wonderful show. They even sang Dylan's 'Lay Down a Weary Tune' and got the crowd into it. Reminded me of the Getway audiences. Gave me chills.

Then came a husband/wife couple who are both fulltime music teachers. Each of them has an even 50 students whom they teach everything from voice, piano, guitar, fiddle, mandolin and banjo. They are very busy but they welcomed the chance to have to come up with a set for themselves.

After intermission came a singer/songwriter who normally plays in a band. He sang only his own songs and brought up two different people to help. It was a great success. And he sold half a dozen CDs.

The finale was a popular performer who went to a completely different format from her usual. She usually does folk and she also performs in a country band. Last night she brought in a professional piano jazz piano player to back her up. (She told me later that she would LOVE being a torch singer, and we talked about the possibility of booking a Night of the Diva- there are a number of women performers in town who would be great.) Her whole theme last night was of Nassau - as she said, she was conceived there. Her father always told her that she may not have gone there with them on their honeymoon but she did came home with them.

As you can see, we feel we had a completely successful evening. (7:30 - 10:00 about 20 minutes each)

Next month will also be a heavy draw- I already have three performers committed, among them our own KT. The finale will be a New York-trained singer with a completely different background and sound from anyone else in town. So yes. We will still have this 'problem' next month.

Can we go back to a smaller crowd, smaller crowd, smaller expectations? If I book a good draw for the #1 spot, the #3 spot and the #5 spot and fill in the other slots as I did before (youngsters and up and coming but unknowns) will people stay away? Will we want to do that? Is bigger always better? Is little necessarily better?

Put into the equation that in the small space we have to do our own setup and takedown (chairs, tables, foods); at the bigger space the house does all the work. Keep in mind, though, that we can't bring in munchies.

At the small space we make a donation of our choosing to the host church; in the larger space it is only a little more expenive but we take in tons more money.

Any ideas, comments, exhortations, expectorations?

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ep' Eric
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:53 PM

I won't give you any advice as all clubs develop
on different lines. What I will do, is tell you what I have done   
for the past 18 years . We have had woefully bad patches at times
but,like the phoenix we've risen from the ashes and managed to carry on.

Put posters in shops , libraries, schools, and the leisure centre.

Written a report for two local newspapers after each meeting.

Made narrow car stickers for rear windows.

Sent information to major library data bases

Havn't booked many major guests. Until this year when I booked Archie Fisher who I was confident would be a success. He was.

Be all acoustic and don't have a bar in the room.

Welcomed most kinds of folk related music.Both Traditional and contemporary , classical guitar,Humerous songs, ragtime , occasional blues And Don't Forget To Make em LAUGH.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:24 PM

Wow Ebbie, that is really great news.
If you think you can sustain the numbers, you have no choice but to move.
What is more important, is can you keep the level of perfomance up enough to keep em coming back. If you can, stay at the new venue.

I wish you success in whatever decision you make.

Les

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM

Thanks, Eric. It sounds like you have a good thing going.

Our situation is quite different from yours. This is in Juneau, Alaska, a waterbound (only way in or out is by air or water) town of just 30,000 souls, even though it is Alaska's capital. It is a vital community with lots of artists and writers and musicians. It is always possible to get up a music party in this town but there is almost almost a conflicting event going on. Sometimes you have to choose from among 6 or 7 places and events, especially in winter.

At this point we have not brought in any outside performers- for two reasons: #1, There are many local very good performers and #2, Our biggest town (Anchorage) is about 600 miles away and it's an expensive proposition to fly here. (At least $300 one way even if you get a plane ticket in good time. Otherwise it can be $800 one way.) Seattle is almost 1,000 miles away, Ketchikan, Alaska (15,000 people) is much closer and has lots of musicians. We have talked about saving our music money to bring up somebody from there.

We don't have a problem with publicising our folk club. Juneau is such a supportive community that if you want a larger turnout, you need only spread your net out a little larger.

My question was Do we/Should we let ourselves grow even if the larger venue is not quite what we prefer?

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 08:05 PM

Thanks, Les. I was hoping you'd see this. Yours was some of the advice that helped so much when we began this.

Yes, I think it can be sustained, if we choose to stay in the larger space. As I said, thre are many good local performers- and if we at any time feel the community needs a shakeup we can schedule a totally different format. (Like 'Night of the Diva'. :) Or to bring in a popular but itinerant artist just passing through.

Frankly I'd like to go to a twice a month kind of thing, maybe a songwriters' workshop or a basic learning-to-pick-in-a-group thing on the alternate date. But so far, the other co-founders of the Folk Club are not into that. They have busier - or at least, more varied - lives than I have. I have the time and the interest and I know the people. Which is why I got chosen to do the booking.)(

I have a big pool of people to fish from - I have more than 60 people on my list right now, and getting more every time. Like last night, I got requests from three different performers to be put on the list.

The important thing that's coming through is that people like it. And ain't that nice!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:40 AM

Hi Ebbie,

Well done with your organisation of the new club.

Most of us this side of the pond would sell our children in return for an attendance of 50+.

What you have to do now, IMHO, is to make a firm decision about what it is that YOU want to run.

My suggestions would be as follows. If you are happier with the smaller setup, then go back to the smaller venue, but be prepared to put on the occasional evening at the larger one when you have a set of artists who are likely to draw more people than usual.

If however you are happy to let your new baby grow, and see where it leads, then stay as you are. A venue large enough for 90 people will not look half empty with only 50, so it won't have too great an effect on the performers. But when it's packed it will produce the setting that every performer loves, "playing to a full house", and they will respond by raising their game to the max.

I just wish that I had the same choice to make. It has never happened to me in forty years of organising clubs.

Good on yer, and I hope you go from strength to strength. It sounds like you deserve to.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Magic Gillian
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 05:22 AM

it's so refreshing to hear of folk clubs starting up instead of having to close down! i agree that the best idea is to have you're set folk club venue, but if you have a special guest and are expecting a bigger crowd try out a larger venue. just for checking it out. there's nowt worse than a big room empty when you can have a small room full, from a performer's point of view. good on ya.
(and book the witches of elswick, i've heard they're very good. shamless self promotion)

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 05:39 AM

Ebbie
I got about 65 last Friday at my club.
It does prove that there is a demand for a concert style folk club Probably better for the listeners, who will come on a regular basis if they enjoy what they hear.
Not so good for performers, who quite rightly want to play all the time.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ep' Eric
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:41 AM

Dear Ebbie,

          How different could our circumstances be?
We are a small country town of about 3000, about 20 miles
from the nearest big town so publicity and loyalty, once wev'e
attracted people is vital.

May I add to my list and suggest a poster in the post office
at Skagway.!*!*

I suppose you know all about Robert Service of the Yukon.
Have you tried his screen saver??. I consider it to be very good.
                                          Eric.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:15 AM

Ebbie -- sounds wonderful -- well done!

A couple more thoughts:

As Don T suggested, you might go back to the smaller venue with occasional use of the larger venue for more popular events. The question is, do you do these larger events sporadically, or do you also make them regular... like twice a year, or maybe every third
(or fourth) month?

If you can (to a reasonable extent) 'control' attendance/predict which events will probably draw more people, I think a 'regular' variation is the better way to go -- it will help folks keep track of what's happening.

The other thing I have to ask (even though you've probably already looked into it) is, is there by any chance yet another suitable venue in town -- one that can accommodate larger audiences and will still allow you to bring in food, so you can have the best of both worlds?

Best of luck to you, and congrats on having such a great 'problem'!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 12:12 PM

Thanks, guys! You've given me lots of ideas- and one that I want to pursue is Yorkshire Yankee's suggestion about finding a venue that will allow food AND also accommodate larger audiences as needed. I'm not sure there is such a animal in this town but I am going to check it out.

Since we know that December's event will be held at the same place that we had this month we have a little time.

And because we will have the large space available again next month, I don't have to worry that the lineup will be overloaded with the big draws. It's fun not to have to try to balance it as carefully. Although I love displaying the lesser knowns to the community at large. Not to mention youngsters- there are a number of 14-15-16 olds who are getting very good.

In the meantime we find ourselves with a pot of money! And good will too. So far, there has been only support.

Eric, in some ways our situations are similar. We have a lot more people than you but on the other hand we cannot expect to draw many people from other communities- there aren't any to hand.

Skagway (100 miles away) is an idea- in the wintertime there are very few people there but it is entirely possible that if we advertise there some of them will come down on the ferry for the event. Barb Kalen- a stalwart musical fixture there for decades - would come down, I don't doubt.

Lots of ideas. Thanks, guys.

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: breezy
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 05:32 PM

Make it a project

Stick to a time scale e.g. One year

All the best

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ep' Eric
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 07:33 PM

Dear Ebbie,


Skagway was meant as a joke. I didn't know it was close to you.
It's the only place I know of in Alaska from Robert Service and
Dan Mcgee.Still, if theres a possibility of people travelling
from there maybe it wasn't such a crazy idea after all.

I'll have to find a way of expressing a smile when I'm typing

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 08:11 PM

Well, I didn't catch on, Eric, so that's fine!

breezy, time scale of one year for what? I don't understand.

Eb

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Girl Friday
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 08:54 PM

Just found this thread. Hope the club is now up and running smoothly and you have taken on board much of the advice that has been offered to you. I couldn't read all 80+ messages but think I have the drift. My club started out by having a panel of local performers who took it in turns to ding for beer money in the bar. Gradually, a few folkies found their way to the club and started to ask me to book guests just like a proper folk club. this worked up to a point. Being a private club I wasn't allowed to advertise. I did get grudging permission to put details in local folk magazines.We were made to occupy one end of the bar, and they kept the fruit machine on and those, there for the beer talked incessantly. We started a raffle to raise money for a p.a. When we got the p.a. people talked even louder. We moved into the function room. %here have been good times and bad, but mostly we break even. I pay a negotiated fee, sometimes set against the door, but I can't b e bothered with this percentage lark. The club has been going for 18 years and I am booking for 2006.One of my residents is never there as he is out gigging two more have Pete Coe as a fan.
Think we are fairly successful!

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:04 PM

Last night we held our fifth folk night. We competed with a lot of other events- Juneau's weekend nights are busy all winter- and it was a snowy night but we had 82 in paid audience. It was another good night- five sets, diverse music, attentive, appreciative audience, lots of laughter and fun.

Our music, btw, is eclectic, pretty much what we do at our Friday Night songcircle, where we regularly have about 5 different genre. I tell each person I 'sign' up that what they do is their choice - but all acoustic.

At last night's folk club, we had bluegrass, Irish fiddle tunes, a folk performer who did a Spanish song, then a hilarious but biting song he wrote about 'Curious George' and a John Gorka song about aging and a couple of other songs. After a 15 minute break another -and very popular - folk performer came on with a totally different set list. The last performer was the biggest draw- Collette Costa. We started at about 7:40 and ended at 9:45.

We announced last night that in January we'll be back at our funky small place (seats about 55). (It's kind of a sweet little place and it has a kitchen so we can serve coffee and tea and goodies.)

As I said last month, I'm concerned about going back, even though the co-founders are not. I am concerned because of two reasons: 1) I get fragmented and claustrophic when there are too many people (There are a number of emergency exits so fire hazards are not really an issue) and 2) I don't like having to turn people away.

What are your thoughts? My co-founders appear laid back about it- they say that we won't draw as many there and if we do, then we'll know that we have to do something different. That is probably the sane approach...

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:44 AM

If it works don't fix it.

I think they are mad moving back especially as you appear to have a very good audience (numbers)

Time to move back is when and if the numbers start to drop into the 55 region.

However if it is about ambience etc, then I can understand. If it is just about making tea and coffee, I don't

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:28 PM

Thanks, the Villan. Last night we founders got together for some music and then did a bit of business too. One member agrees with me that we don't want to turn people away, and that until the numbers drop we will have to do that if we go back into a smaller place.

The other three are now talking about acquiring a venue at a church. The churches in town here encourage that kind of thing and there are three in the neighborhood that would be suitable. Each of them has a "fellowship room" where goodies could be served.

Downsides:

1) Any of the churches would have about twice the cost of the room we've had the last two months. If we wanted the capability of serving goodies there where we are currently it would cost us another $50. That $50 would be easily accommodated, however. The only thing we are saving up for is the potential guest artist we might want to bring in from time to time. (We have about $1200. at this point- although one member says he has his eye on a Brazilian Rosewood Martin. *G*)

2) Probably my own peculiarity but I have always felt that a church has a somewhat stultifying effect on both the performer and the audience.

3) Even though we would not have to set up chairs at a church (as we do at our tiny place) we would have to set up tables and clean up afterward which means that we would always have to be the last ones out. Where we are currently there is staff.

4) Since we are not serving goodies (other than in vending machines) where we are currently, people tend to go out to restaurants and other gathering places after our show. I like that idea. When we serve goodies, most people tend to be more inclined to go home.

Any more ideas?

Subject: RE: Starting a folk club
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 05:35 PM

Stick with what you have