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BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope [2005]
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Subject: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: jacqui.c Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:45 PM Just watched this on TV. It's still amazing that we can be part of such an important occasion live! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: jacqui.c Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:46 PM He's going to be named Pope Benedict XVI |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:47 PM Tell me it's not true. The best thing about these news is that he's quite old already. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM It's not true........ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John MacKenzie Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM Sorry JacquiC not wishing to rain on your parade, but I can't see this as terribly amazing or even that important, from his history he won't move the Catholic chuch in an enlightened or progressive direction. Quite a step up for an ex member of the Hitler Youth though! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Chris Green Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:53 PM Bugger. Oh well, I'm sure there'll be another one along shortly... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM Wolfgang, you would perhaps have the best insight into this new guy. I am interested why you seem quite unimpressed. I would like to know your comments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: jacqui.c Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM I'm not a Christian but I can see that, to a significant number of people this IS an important event. Whatever he does or does not do will impact a quite a lot of people, even inaction has its results. What I feel is amazing is that we can all be aware of what is happening immediately, wherever we are situated in the world. Think back a couple of hundred years and this news would have taken quite a time to reach most of the world. Even 50 years ago we could not have watched this live. Now it happens in a few seconds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:05 PM In each decision he has been on the conservative side. For instance when the German bishop (all but one or two) wanted the Catholic church to give advice and help to pregnant women along with other helping agencies he moved against them for the mere possibility that this could be seen as leading to abortions. He always moved against any local independence from Rome. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,TIA Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:07 PM He was a member of the Hitler Youth. Never a member of the Nazi Party. Conscripted into the German Army, but deserted. Was in an American POW camp when the war ended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:17 PM Well that's alright then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM So the Auld/ New Pope was a Nazi, but that was in the past. I hope him good health and Luck Tom |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM Clutching at straws, Benedict XV was a good man, opposed the Great War all the way through, and got a lot of stick about it from both sides; so the name is at least one encouraging thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:30 PM Kevin they are all called Pope... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM Today is a good day because - Ratzinger is the new Pope Sorry, wrong thread, should go to thread name game. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM So. The cardinal who is the Vatican insider that rewrote the rules for papal elections, has now been elected pope. Way to pick 'em, Holy Spirit. A true miracle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Piers Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:45 PM In 1986 Ratzinger issued a letter to the Catholic Bishops in which he wrote that homosexuality was a 'tendency' towards an 'intrinsic moral evil'. A few years later, in 1992, he rejected the notion of human rights for gays, stressing that their civil liberties could be 'legitimately limited'. He followed up by remarking that 'neither the church nor society should be surprised' if 'irrational and violent reactions increase' when gays demand civil rights. From here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:47 PM He was the most conservative fundamentalist amongst the papabile. Just what Catholicism needs--another fundie pope. As if JPII wasn't bad enough. The worst news is Ratzinger seems to be in excellent health. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM And I'm guessing they are *ecstatic* at the Dubya White House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:52 PM From Reuters: Born in Bavaria on April 16, 1927, Ratzinger was a leading theology professor and then archbishop of Munich before taking over the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1981. In that office, Ratzinger disciplined Latin American "liberation theology" theologians, denounced homosexuality and gay marriage and pressured Asian priests who saw non-Christian religions as part of God's plan for humanity. In a document in 2000, he branded other Christian churches as deficient -- shocking Anglicans, Lutherans and other Protestants in ecumenical dialogue with Rome for years. As dean of the College of Cardinals, he presided over John Paul's funeral Mass and the daily meetings of cardinals to discuss the next papacy. Ratzinger was the oldest cardinal to be named pope since Clement XII, who was also 78 when he became pope in 1730. He is the first German pope since Victor II (1055-1057). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:04 PM If he was forced to Join the German army then he can't all that bad. He has his faults like everyone else. Tom |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:08 PM Back to the future with Joseph Ratzinger (Guardian) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:08 PM Apparently you aren't Catholic, Tom. Popes don't have faults. They are infallible. Just ask Ratzinger/Benedict XVI--he's the one who clarified that for us during his reign over at the Doctrine offices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:12 PM Don't let the troll start a fight. I am not happy about the choice either, but history has shown that often the individuals who lead the church end up taking different paths. John Paul II surprised a lot of people. None of us can see in to the future, let's just watch and be cautious. If people expect any religion to make social changes, those changes will never occur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Burke Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM I'm not old enough to remember it personally, but I seem to recall hearing that John XXIII was supposed to be an interim figure & ended up holding Vatican II. Benedict XVI could surprise all the predictions. I do hope he mananges to last longer than John Paul I. Both JP's were viewed as pastoral men. Ratzinger seems to be an academic turned bureaucrat. Does he have any real world experience since those days in the army & POW camp? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: open mike Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:37 PM did anyone actually see the white smoke... and was it from the secret ballots being burned? hard to hold a re-count after burning |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM Just passing around a spliff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:55 PM well, it will be interesting to watch the reign of a staunch conservative who practically bullied his way into office. Perhaps he will be so strict that it will backfire. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:12 PM And the liberal cause gets ignored again! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Jesus Christ Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM Well, nobody asked Me for My opinion! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Haruo Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM Oh, him. Ratzinger. I thought they said "Rap Singer", and I was thinking maybe the Benedict was for Benedict Arnold. Well, the next one will be even more intransigently closed-minded, but at least he'll be African. Haruo just guessing of course |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:19 PM I certainly won't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:20 PM Just another asshole one day, the Infallible Right Hand of God the next. Because the majority of a roomful of old men in red suits said so. Hmmm.... Makes perfect sense to me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:25 PM He opposed Romero (The Red Bishop) in the late 1970s and early 1980s (?) over Liberation Theology. He has said, basically, that the Church will be better off with a smaller more devoted (read, toe-the-line) congregation than a larger congregation that wants their specific whims catered to (abortion, same-sex marriage, birth control, etc). The above is my interpretation. Time will tell (just who has fell, and who's been left behind . . .). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:26 PM Careful about that infallibility thing. Popes aren't infallible, but their statements can be deemed infallible if those statements meet very strict guidelines. The most important restriction is that the statement must be something that is already part of the common belief of Catholics - it cannot be something that is imposed upon them. There have been two infallible statements made since the Doctrine of Infallibility was decreed in the 1870's - both of thes statements involved bestowing rather innocuous titles on Mary, the mother of Jesus. Still and all, the choice of Ratzinger is very distressing to me. He had a reputation as a competent theologian, and was regarded as a "liberal" until the 1970's. he has been viewed as a rigid conservative since he took over as the chief doctrine man in the early 1980's, but many of his statements are not as rigid and conservative as one might think All you see in the newspapers is a one-line layman's summary of a 40-page document. I have an acquaintance who has worked for Ratzinger for the last several years, and he has many good things to say about Ratzinger as a person. I'm willing to give him a chance, but I'm worried. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:27 PM Brucie, i thought he opposed Cesar Romero. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:30 PM Naw, not the salad/cheese guy, the bishop from Central America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Greg F. Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:34 PM Just Great- Pope Grand Inquisitor. Should put the Catholic Church right back into the 15th Century- just about where the NeoCons want society to be anyway. Good investment opportunities in concerns making racks, thumbscrews, & the other knick-knacks for suppressing heresy, tho! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST, Jesus H. Christ Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:35 PM The other Christ is an imponere! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:40 PM "imponere" Is that really a word? If so, why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: PoppaGator Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM Alright! An old guy with all the hard-line orthodoxy of JPII and none of his persoanl likability! Maybe what the Holy Spirit really wants is for independent thinkers in the industrialized West and worldwide to give up on the Vatican and start something new and viable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:54 PM Oscar Romero, archbishop of San Salvador, was assassinated as he celebrated Mass on March 24, 1980. The man usually referred to as the "red bishop" is Archbishop Helder Camara (1909-1999), archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Brazil. He was one of the earliest proponents of liberation theology, and he was an outspoken critic of Brazil's military disctatorship. It would be an understatement to say that Ratzinger and Camara "didn't get along." -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Rapparee Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:57 PM I agree with Joe Offer -- I'll wait, but if I'm excommunicated you'll know why. Heck, for all I know I might be excommunicated right now. Hmmmmm.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM Is the new Pope the Red Baron? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Tired of Petty People Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM Why are you liberals so petty? The man just got the job and you have already condemned him, no one knows how well he will or won't do. He's not elected by the people so he doesn't need your popularity vote. Religion isn't suppose to conform to the current trends, religion is a constant force, followers either adhere to a particular religon's doctrine or they go else where. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM When will they finally get with the times and elect a pope who believes in nothing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM Who knows? As they say "only Nixon could go to China." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Greg F. Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:13 PM And they also say wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:15 PM we liberal, 'petty' people at least use our own names when we critique.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Joe D Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM Well, Bill D, at least you admit you're petty but you failed to address the condemnation of man who was just "hired". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Kim C Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:32 PM He wasn't alive during the Great War (WWI). I assume you mean WWII? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM I told you he was the Red Baron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM "condemnation"?? perhaps reservation and suspicion? It's not my business anyway...I'm just an interested observer |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM No, he's Snoopy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: jeffp Date: 19 Apr 05 - 04:47 PM Kim, the post referring to the Great War was about Benedict XV, who was pope from September 3, 1914 - January 22, 1922. The new pope is Benedict XVI, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM This is rich. A bunch of people who wouldn't know Catholic theology from plumbing, registering their complaints about the guy's qualifications to lead a church that they have no intention of belonging to. All the while judging that they only way he could possibly be a good pope would be if he, on this his first day in the office of pope, would make the public admission that Catholicism itself is outmoded and should be disbanded as an organization. *BG* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM Does anyone second John Hardly's proposal for disbanding the Church? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM "Archbishop Helder Camara" Thanks, Joe. I have been confusing the two for years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:30 PM No, I don't. He's right. the same whiners here complain about anything and everything. The far left idiots here will always complain about: The U.S. Government and organized religion along with capitalism and big business. What else would you expect from Commie/Socialist pigs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM "What else would you expect from Commie/Socialist pigs?" Bacon? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Kim C Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM Oh. Sorry. Never mind then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:37 PM Of course bacon, Brucie. As well as pork, ham, and everything else trafe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Catholic commie/socialist Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:50 PM A pretty substantial portion of the Catholic church in the West are "commie/socialist pigs" though, and it's our church too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Nemesis Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:13 PM A lapsed catholic told me (a non-catholic) five years ago that Ratzinger would be the next one .. he's been moving towards it for years .. and anyway, maybe I am getting very, very old .. but I seem to remember there was a huge fuss about John Paul when he was elected .. and here we are "sore"(?) cos the new one isn't in his image? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:30 PM Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly - PM Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM This is rich. A bunch of people who wouldn't know Catholic theology from plumbing, registering their complaints about the guy's qualifications to lead a church that they have no intention of belonging to. All the while judging that they only way he could possibly be a good pope would be if he, on this his first day in the office of pope, would make the public admission that Catholicism itself is outmoded and should be disbanded as an organization. *BG* Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: WFDU - Ron Olesko - PM Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM Does anyone second John Hardly's proposal for disbanding the Church? *************************************************************** Yes. I will second the motion and offer up, as Pope of the new Church of No Redeeming Social Value, that same John Hardly. As a papal name I suggest Pope Hardly Atall the First. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: number 6 Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:48 PM " What else would you expect from Commie/Socialist pigs?" ......... the second coming |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:54 PM Aren't there lots of atolls in the Pacific. I agree we should name a small island after John Hardly. The John Hardy Atoll. Now, THAT has a nice 'ring' to it. The John Hardly Atoll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM Or a large island: like this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM No, no.......That's AT-"A"-LL, like in At All, ie Pope Hardly At All......like he's hardly a pope.............oy.................................sorry. If ya' gotta' explain it, tain't funny..........***sigh***..............and I sorta' liked it.......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:49 PM Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I get it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bobert Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:54 PM Another victory fir the Taliban... Watch out, womenz, watch out.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:22 PM I could try to be humble .....but I gotta admit... ...I'd make a great pope. The Hardly Atall coronation party's over at my atoll. brucie's in charge of the keg. I'll be the one in the cool hat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:25 PM Is that like "Almost an Angel"? (cute movie) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:36 PM Heck, there's nothing angelic about me. Except the wings. But they hardly show if I wear the right shirt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Padre Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:06 PM I am personally pleased by the choice |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:17 PM So am I. But some here think he's just a Wal-Mart greeter in disguise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:27 PM "I'll be the one in the cool hat." It gets chilly at night though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:35 PM I think the popeshould have been chosen by which one has gone the longest without an erection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:36 PM ..and YOU will do the interviews to determine that, MG? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM Yeah, I wonder about the gold hat (tiara), and some of the other regal trappings of the papacy that previous popes have abandoned. John XXIII started a trend away from the pomp and circumstance, and subsequent popes have followed suit. Each one has cut back a little more on extravagance. Which way will Benny Ratzinger go? He stayed in the motel and had dinner tonight with the rest of the cardinal guys, so maybe that's a good, egalitarian sign. The popemobile beats the hell out of sedan chairs; and I never thought the tiara was very fashionable, anyhow. Looked like a beehive to me. Hey, is there a Mormon connection there? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bobert Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:42 PM Probably, BillD, since Martin has quite a fixation on the male genetelia... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: M.Ted Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:13 AM "Benny Ratzinger" sounds like the name of a deli that was closed for health code violations-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: dianavan Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:41 AM Ratzinger on his own doesn't scare me but the combination of Ratzinger, Sharon, Bush amd the Mullahs doesn't sound like a recipe for peace and prosperity or good will. Maybe this new axis of evil heralds the coming of the true Messiah. It can't get much worse than this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Trudie Fitzgerald Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:43 AM I'm depressed that the church had a real opportunity to help salvage the developing world by easing its teaching on condoms. I don't think that will happen for some time now. Meanwhile many, many more will die. like I said, I'm depressed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:58 AM wasn't he the guy in Cheers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:10 AM Talking of recipes........Do his closest friends get to call him 'Eggs'..................... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:24 AM You know, all this stuff about the Catholic Church opposing condoms and birth control pills, and how it causes AIDS and unwanted births... Well, let me tell you that very little is said in Catholic churches in the United States about birth control of any sort. People more-or-less know it's prohibited. Generally, priests tell people about it only if asked; and then often say that this is the official teaching, but that people have to make the final judgment. So, the position on birth control is there, but it's not presented as a matter of primary importance. I don't know how it's presented in Catholic churches in other places, but the issue has been on the back burner for American Catholics since the 1970's. Catholic opposition to abortion is a strongly-presented position, but not birth control. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: dianavan Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:30 AM Joe, that may be the position of Catholics in America but it is not the position of the Catholic church world-wide. If the Catholic church would help to educate the people of impoverished nations and distribute condoms, over population and disease would not be such a big problem. In other words, if they're not part of the solution, they're part of the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:12 AM Well, Diana - I'd like to see evidence that the Catholic Church does much anywhere nowadays to actively oppose birth control or the use of condoms - or to restrict the access people have to condoms. If that's the case, then that would be a problem. It used to be that way in Ireland, but not any longer. On the other hand, I do think it's a bit much to expect a church to promote condoms or birth control. Churches don't generally approve of sex outside of marriage - and the spread of AIDS would be stopped quite well if extramarital sex were stopped. Now, we all well know that people often choose to violate church prohibitions against extramarital sex. Why is it that people would ignore that prohibition, and yet heed the less-obvious restriction against birth control? If there's a need for condoms and birth control, let some secular agency take care of it - but don't push a church to do it. I firmly believe in condoms and birth control - and in premarital or nonmarital sex in some long-term, loving, adult relationships - but that's my personal stand on the matter. But let's be realistic - can we really, honestly, logically say that Catholic opposition to birth control causes AIDS - or is that just propaganda? Is it possible that a church can be so effective in prohibiting birth control, and yet so ineffective in prohibiting extramarital sex? Extramarital sex without condoms causes the spread of AIDS, not religious belief. And if a person can be free to choose to engage in extramarital sex, he or he is certainly also just as free to choose to use a condom. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Haruo Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:29 AM Have you looked at the Vatican's contributions to UN Family Planning efforts, Joe? There is no question that the Church is obstructionist in ways that directly deleteriously impact efforts to reduce population growth in parts of the world that sadly need fewer babies. I am concerned, too, that Benedict will prove a mighty foe of reconciliation among religions and within Christianity among denominations and confessions. It will be that much harder for us to join in Communion. (It'll be interesting on the last day to see which of these positions of Ratzinger's [and Rome's] will be the cause of the greater rebuking.) Does post-Vatican II canon law allow for contrition and absolution when one follows the church's teaching? Haruo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:18 AM OK, Haruo, so what are the facts about the Vatican's contributions or lack of contributions to family planning? If I am extremely generous to those in need but do not contribute to them in programs I don't believe in, am I unjust? If there is a need for family planning, let those who believe in it support it. If the Vatican is forcing the prohibition of condoms by putting strings on all contributions, that's coercion and may well be unjust. But is that what's happening? Do you have documentation? I am sure there are some fundamentalist Christian programs in third-world countries that do very good work - but I don't contribute to those programs, because I don't want to support fundamentalism. Am I unjust because I do not contribute to fundamentalist Christian missionaries? I do contribute generously through Catholic Relief Services, because I believe that agency gives aid without strings, without preaching, and without the political baggage that comes from the Bush Administration. Can you give me solid evidence that Catholic Relief Services uses my money in an underhanded way or that it engages in political coercion? I have friends who have worked overseas for Catholic Relief Services, and they tell me CRS is always completely ethical and nonpolitical. By the way, my wife and I do support a Tibetan Buddhist monk in India. In fact, I think we give enough to provide his total support. But that's another matter. On the other hand, let me tell you of a local situation. My Catholic Diocese of Sacramento is involved in a lawsuit against the State of California. The state is trying to force the diocese to include birth control coverage in the health insurance the diocese provides to its employees. I work with a group of nuns, and we discussed this lawsuit at lunch a couple of weeks ago and all agreed that it was silly for the diocese to bother pursuing such a matter. It's just not a battle that's worth fighting, but we have a conservative bishop who thinks it's important. It's not going to make a huge difference either way - the employees who want birth control will pay for it if they aren't covered, and those who don't want it will not accept birth control if they are covered. But anyhow, my point is that although I believe in birth control personally, I can't buy all this dramatic propaganda that insists that official Catholic opposition to birth control is a significant cause of overpopulation and AIDS. That's rigid, bigoted, fundamentalist left-wing propaganda - and it's just as bad as rigid, fundamentalist, bigoted right-wing propaganda. And both of them are equally lacking in logic and factual foundation. Contrition and absolution and reconciliation have very little to do with church law or doctrine. They have to do with doing something wrong, admitting responsibility for it and doing what is needed to right the wrong, and starting over again with the intention of doing right. I am certain that there are church laws that are unjust, or that can cause an injustice when followed too rigidly. And if I am unjust to my neighbor or to humankind, then I have reason for contrition. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,W C Fields Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:16 AM Anyone who hates animals and children can't be all bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Nic Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:24 AM Do they choose the best singer to be Pope ? That thing he did from the balcony would have been better with a few harmonies though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Mark Cohen Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:25 AM So the Church now has a new leader who is a staunch conservative, alienates his organization's allies, and was a military deserter. Hmmmm... Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:16 AM Last German pope: Hadrian VI. (1522-1523), born in Utrecht, now Netherlands, but thence part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Ratzinger is no fundamentalist, but a traditionalist. Dr. M. Luther was a fundamentalist (the Holy Scripture only! One of our former leading conservative politicians, Dr. Heiner Geissler, recently publicly deplored the exclusion of women in the Catholic hierarchy. Half of the population excluded! He postulated that the Cath. Church had to solve this problem soon, but methinks with the new bishop of Rome nothing will move. But who cares? My family is Lutheran since the Reformation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Donuel Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:21 AM Ratsinger's childhood was shaped by the Hitler Youth program of which he was a member. Eventually his active duty involved shooting at Allied planes from anti aircraft gun installations surrounding German factories. When Hitler's defeat of imminent, Ratsinger ran to the priesthood. No wonder Bush called him a man of great wisdom. Excuse youthful indescretions if you must but please lets be honest with history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Paco Rabanne Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:27 AM Would he mind if I got the 100th post? He can't excommunicate me because I am a Methodist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:33 AM I share Joe's scepticism about all these millions of Catholics who are supposed to have no moral issues about breaking the rules on having sex outside marriage, but are terrified of breaking the rules on using condoms. It's the logic of Rickety-Tickety Tin - And when at last the law came by, Sing Rickety-Tickety-Tin Her wicked crimes she did not deny. To do so she would have had to lie, And lying she knew was a sin. Makes a good song, but... .............................. Actually, as I've always understood the position, the Catholic Church has always distinguished in principle between the use of condoms as a contraceptive, which is officially forbidden, and as a prophylactic, which is not. In the case of Aids the controvery has been over how reliable condoms are in preventing transmission of the virus. This is a purely scientific question, where the church has no particular expertise. Any statements by bishops or church sppokesmen about this are just expressions of opinion. That would include anything Benedict XVI might have to say on this particular aspect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Leadfingers Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:34 AM He was the power behind the throne for the last couple of years of JPII's life anyway |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Leadfingers Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:35 AM Ted - You are using the wrong metho(ism) -This is the 100th !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Paco Rabanne Date: 20 Apr 05 - 08:43 AM Foiled again. See you at Selby gathering in May Terry, I feel a handbag fight coming on! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:08 AM As the comic we get (not me mind you) in the UK called the "Sun" put it Papa Ratzi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Apr 05 - 09:58 AM Ratsinger's childhood was shaped by the Hitler Youth program of which he was a member. (Donuel) That's a silly idea. He has that in common with 99% of his peers. Some of them became conservatives, some reactionaries, some communists and some liberals. The son of one of the July 20th plotters against Hitler who hadas a young man seen his father shot by the Nazis became a very conservative man. Much more shaping for Ratzinger may have been the fact that his father's career came to an end when he refused joining the Nazi party. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Wolfgang Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:17 AM Ratsinger's childhood was shaped by the Hitler Youth program of which he was a member. (Donuel) That's a silly idea. He has that in common with 99% of his peers. Some of them became conservatives, some reactionaries, some communists and some liberals. The son of one of the July 20th plotters against Hitler who hadas a young man seen his father shot by the Nazis became a very conservative man. Much more shaping for Ratzinger may have been the fact that his father's career came to an end when he refused joining the Nazi party. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:05 AM That's a silly idea. He has that in common with 99% of his peers. Probably a very good reason NOT to make any of them Pope... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:07 AM Joe, here is an article from the Washington Post about the condom controversy in Africa. And here is one from The Guardian |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:28 AM And as to the protests at the UN Mission, here is an article from Act Up. Some excerpts from National Catholic Reporter Online on the controversy: "Catholic Aid Group Supports Condom Use In an article written for the Tablet, a UK-based Catholic weekly, the HIV Corporate Strategist for the Catholic Agency for Overseas Development, Ann Smith, elucidated a nuanced approach to condom-use that is at odds with the church hierarchy's adamant opposition to their use, even in cases where a husband or wife is infected with HIV/AIDS. Smith wrote, "Sadly, all too often the debate over HIV prevention has involved a contest between 'condom only' or 'abstinence/fidelity only' solutions. These have often been hijacked by political, religious or cultural agendas in turn fueled by mutual distrust and prejudices. A third, middle ground approach known as ABC, "Abstain, Be faithful, Use a Condom," has also emerged. But all three approaches often assume oversimplistic solutions for an idealized world in which all individuals are free to make empowered choices. This is not the reality for most people worldwide affected by HIV. CAFOD' s approach seeks to take into account the complex social, cultural and economic factors that influence behaviors and condition choices, most particularly (but not only) in countries of the South where the impact of AIDS has been disproportionately catastrophic." The paper, originally presented at the XV World AIDS Conference in Bangkok, Thailand, during July 2004, drew criticism from conservative Catholics, but perhaps tellingly, the church hierarchy in the UK had nothing to say on the matter. Days after the article appeared, CAFOD issued a clarification that it did not "fund the supply, distribution or promotion of condoms." And pardon the long cut and paste, but I could no longer get to this article through NCR Online, so I'm quoting it in it's entirety. It was written by John Allen, the Vatican reporter for NCR who you may have seen reporting for CNN these past few weeks. Most Catholics I know involved in HIV/AIDS relief are frustrated with the endless public controversy over condoms: Whether they're rock-solid behind the church's traditional ban or think some flexibility is in order, they're virtually unanimous in believing that the condom debate has too often overshadowed the good work done by the Catholic church through its network of clinics, hospices, hospitals and AIDS education centers, above all in Africa. Mexican Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan, president of the Pontifical Council for Pastoral Health, is fond of saying that 27 percent of all AIDS relief in the world is run by the Catholic church. Complaints that the church has turned a blind eye to AIDS can't be sustained against this commitment, whether it's Sant'Egidio's DREAM project in Mozambique that gets antiretroviral drugs to the poorest of the poor, or the Nyumbani orphanage in Kenya that provides a loving home for 94 HIV-positive children. Yet the condom issue shows no signs of going away, and this week brought fresh evidence of the tension it's creating within Roman Catholicism. One came from Barragan himself, in an interview with Rome-based reporter Stacy Meichtry, who is preparing a story on the church and AIDS for an upcoming issue of NCR. Barraghn's weariness with the topic was evident. "I think by now we've said everything that's to be said regarding our position on condoms," he told Meichtry. "What we need to look at are comprehensive practices like those in Uganda which reduced AIDS infections through faithfulness and abstinence." Yet Barragan opened the door slightly for a reevaluation of the blanket ban. while affirming that he opposes the distribution of condoms, because he believes it institutionalizes promiscuity, he said he finds condoms acceptable in social contexts where abstinence is not an option. "If an infected husband wants to have sex with his wife who isn't infected, then she must defend herself by whatever means necessary," Barragan said. This position, he said, is consistent with the tenets of traditional Catholic moral theology, which teaches that acts of self-defense can extend to killing in order to not be killed. "If a wife can defend herself from having sex by whatever means necessary, why not with a condom?" he said. Barragan says this belief informs his decisions as head of the Council for Pastoral Health, but adds that his views are personal and do not speak for Pope John Paul II. "The Holy Father has never spoken explicitly on the subject," Barragan said. The second indication of intra-Catholic ferment came from CAFOD, the leading Roman Catholic development agency. In a new position paper published in the Tablet, the agency, which comes under the aegis of the bishops of England and Wales, said anti-AIDS campaigns in the third world should be realistic and employ a range of methods. "For many in Africa and Asia, sex is often the only commodity people have to exchange for food, school fees, exam results, employment or survival itself in situations-of violence," said the paper by Ann Smith, HIV corporate strategist at CAFOD. "There are immense social and cultural pressures on poor men and women to conform to accepted stereotypes: There are economic pressures that result from the break-up of families as migrant workers spend months on end far from their spouse and family support, plunged into unbearably harsh working and living conditions by exploitative local or multi-national employers." In such conditions, the paper suggested, condoms may be the least bad option, especially for social groups such as prostitutes with the highest risk of infection. "Any strategy that enables a person to move from a higher-risk activity towards the lower end of the continuum, CAFOD believes, is a valid risk reduction strategy," the paper said. Yet while some voices in the Catholic world are raising questions, others are reaffirming the traditional position. One such voice belongs to Colombian Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Pontifical Council for the Family, long an unapologetic critic of the use of condoms to respond to the HIV/AIDS epidemic. In a paper titled "Family Values versus Safe Sex," released to the press this week, Lopez Trujillo writes: "Permeability and electric tests indicate that latex may allow passage of particles bigger than the HIV." He even suggests that condoms should carry warnings of their potential dangers, like cigarettes. [John L. Allen Jr. is NCR Rome correspondent. His e-mail address is jallen@natcath.org.] The Word From Rome In his Web column this week, Allen looks at fallout from clergy sex abuse in Ireland and Austria. COPYRIGHT 2004 National Catholic Reporter COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM John Allen's work is usually well-balanced, and I think his article on AIDS covers the matter quite well. Yes, there are people in the Catholic church who have some extreme ideas about condoms. Yes, the Catholic Church opposed the use of condoms as birth control devices. But if people wouldn't make an issue out of it and wouldn't try to push the Church into total acceptance and promotion of condoms, it wouldn't be an issue. The "Abstain, Be faithful, Use a Condom" (ABC) approach seems to be a pretty reasonable compromise. I think sometimes people on both sides get too focused on winning that they forget what it is they are trying to accomplish. The goal here is to prevent AIDS and overpopulation, not to probe the Catholic Church is wrong and evil. There's a need to seek middle ground here, not to destroy the opposition. Same with the abortion issue. The goal of the pro-choice movement is to reduce the number of unwanted babies, not to increase the number of abortions. The goal of the pro-life movement is to reduce the number of abortions, not to increase the number of unwanted babies. Each side has gotten bound up in seeking to defeat and destroy the other side, so no progress is made toward either of these laudable goals. Another thought came to me last night. As Wilfried said above, Ratzinger is a conservative, not a fundamentalist. This may have some surprising results for Catholic fundamentalists. In what I consider a mistaken quest for unity, John Paul II tolerated and even appeared to encourage the flawed theology, judgmentalism, bigotry, and anti-intellectualism of the Catholic fundamentalists. The Catholic fundamentalists have spent a huge amount of money on media and propaganda, establishing universities and broadcasting networks to spread their distorted message. The fundamentalists have a stranglehold on Catholic broadcasting in the United States, and they have done much the same wherever there are Catholics. Ratzinger is an intellectual and a rigorous proponent of theology that is conventional but sound. He is not likely to tolerate the extremes of the Catholic fundamentalists, and this may have the surprising effect of giving the Catholics Church a much more moderate image than it currently has. So, we'll wait and see. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM No Joe, I don't think it has to do with winning when it comes to the position of the UN and other aid organizations, and the use of condoms as a means of preventing AIDs transmission. See, that is where YOU don't seem to get the argument. The aid workers are saying that condoms aren't just used for birth control anymore--they are now also used to prevent the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases. That means that condoms have more than one single purpose, one which can save millions of lives of innocents. However, the church dogmatists refuse to accept that something that can be used for birth control can also be used to prevent the spread of a fatal disease killing millions of people, which is at the stage of a world-wide epidemic. Can you imagine if, say, the church said they wouldn't allow TB vaccines to be used? Same thing. We are talking about a public health epidemic here, like the flu, not "birth control". There is no way that the necessary education and distribution systems can be set up for aid workers to educate about transmission and distribute condoms, without running headlong into the Catholic church's propaganda campaign spreading misinformation and outright lies about the transmission of the disease and the efficacy of condoms to prevent transmission. It really is that simple, and the intransigence of the church on this point has been well documented again and again by international aid authorities, organizations like the UN, WHO, etc. Sometimes the church is just plain wrong. Now, if you are suggesting that the intransigent stance for winning sake is being taken by the church, then I'd agree with you. But when it comes to the church's position on condom use, as far as I'm concerned, the Catholic church is guilty of committing crimes against humanity for the ways they are undermining the aid efforts in Africa and Asia in particular, where AIDs has exploded and reached epidemic levels in the past decade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,MMario Date: 20 Apr 05 - 03:00 PM Joe - you say he was considered a liberal until he took up the postition in the 80's - Are you implying that maybe his conservitive line since then was somewhat a matter of "upholding the party line"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM With regards to condoms, I still don't think I've seen any facts about the so-called Catholic "propaganda campaign" against condoms. There is a strong difference between a stated position on something, and an outright campaign. I will fully agree that there have been some downright stupid statements made by certain church leaders about the permeability of condoms, but I still see no evidence of a widespread campaign by the Catholic church against condoms. Frankly, I think that stubborn opposition to the Catholic Church on this issue simply serves to exaggerate the impact of the church's position - and that exaggeration serves to compound the impact of that position. And yeah, it's all done in the name of winning, not for the purpose of preventing AIDS. What happens so often in all corners of our polarized world is that people target the extremists among their opponents and ignore the vast majority who are in the middle ground of the discussion of an issue. In fact, the tendency is to label the entire opposing side as "extremist," and to define the entire opposition as beings equally ridiculous as its extremist minority. Yes, there are conservative Catholic bishops and cardinals who take the Church's position to ridiculous extremes. It's foolhardy to even bother with them, because they will never change. Don't seek to do battle with the Catholic middle, either - the only solution is to seek common ground and a reasonable compromise that serves the aims of all concerned. the vast majority of Catholics and Catholic leaders are deeply concerned about AIDS and its horrible impact. They will be a valuable ally in the fight against AIDS, but not if they are dismissed as enemies because they do not buy the liberal party line hook, line, and sinker. No, MMario, I don't think Ratzinger's conversion to conservatism is just a matter of loyalty to the "party line." I don't expect he'll turn into a wild-eyed liberal. I think most people tend to move toward the center or even to the right when they move into leadership positions. If you are an extreme progressive, you can't effectively lead an organization that is not equally progressive. Many of the liberal theologians who were silenced dealt in highly speculative theology that is simply beyond the understanding of Catholics who do not have advanced theological degrees. It's worthwhile stuff, but it IS hard to follow - and it is distressing to people who don't understand it. The "silencing" was the withdrawal of a theologian's license to teach in the name of the Catholic Church. this sometimes means the loss of a job, but most of the "silenced" theologians found teaching jobs elsewhere. But my pont is that you cannot be a speculative theologian and a church leader at the same time, because speculative theologians are in a realm that is beyond the comprehension of most mortals. So, anyhow, I'm still hoping that this guy won't be as rigid as some think he will be. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM "Ratzinger is a conservative, not a fundamentalist..." So, which of the fundamentals do you think he doesn't believe or won't uphold? *WINK, WINK* *BG* (you don't have to answer.....I'm just beating my drum) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Apr 05 - 05:21 PM Condoms have always had the two distinct roles, as contraceptive (birth cotrol) and a prophylactic (disease control). Only the use as a contraceptive has ever been proscribed by the Church. Here is what one Jesuit has to say in an article worth looking at: I accept that the difference between a condom-as-contraceptive and a condom-as- prophylactic is real and that one may use a condom to prevent HIV transmission, allowing its contraceptive action, according to the Principle of Double Effect. That is a completely different matter from the argument about how reliable they are as a method of preventing HIV transmission. And there does appear to be evidence that the level of risk is actually more significant than frequently claimed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM McGrath and Joe, you both seem to have swallowed the Catholic propaganda line, hook line and sinker about AIDs prevention with the use of condoms and reduction of multiple sex partners. So, let me ask you this: how then do you account for stories like this: The Guardian Or this: Or this article for the International Association for Physicians in AIDs Care? And blatant propagandizing by Catholic organizations like this: Human Life International If your eyes are glazing over at the length of these articles, and you are quickly clicking back here without bothering to read any of the articles, then you maybe don't WANT to understand the problems inherent with the Catholic anti-condom propaganda campaigns being waged in the developing world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:53 PM There seem a lot of posts from nameless GUEST(s) on this thread. Just in case any of them are in response to anything I have written, I think it's only polite to say that I decided some time ago not to read or respond to such posts, for reasons I've explained several times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Joe Offer Date: 20 Apr 05 - 11:03 PM Your post from Human Life International proves my point - you define the position of the Catholic Church by the actions of its right-wing extremists, and that's simply not fair. The "Human Life International" organization is located in the United States, but yet there's no indication that the organization has any support from the American bishops, or from Rome. If you want to quote from a legitimate Catholic relief organization like Catholic Relief Services or Maryknoll or the Jesuits or one of the other major religious orders, I might think it more representative of mainstream Catholic thought. I don't really trust the Guardian, much of the time, but take another look at the article you cited - a right-wing Catholic organization is threatening a boycott against an international Catholic relief agency that condones the use of condoms for disease control. So, again, you're defining the Catholic Church by its right-wing extremists, and completely ignoring the mainstream position that was stated quite clearly in the very same article. And again, the article by the International Association for Physicians in AIDs Care speaks of the actions of right-wing Catholics - not of the actions of any mainstream or official Catholic organization. OK. So I guess you're right. We do have a number of conservatives and even some wild-eyed fundamentalists in the Catholic Church. They are very embarrassing, and I'm very sorry that they haven't been shot or burned at the stake or something; but that sort of disposal is now forbidden by Church law. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Wolfgang Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:36 AM I decided some time ago not to read or respond (McGrath) You made me grin. Do you really sometimes respond without reading? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,Top of the Popes Date: 21 Apr 05 - 09:07 AM who wants to join my new folk group "the singing ratz" we're gonna be bigger than Pope John Paul George & Ringo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:41 AM 'A Mighty Wind' indeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:51 AM Even a 'God Almighty Wind'.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:13 AM No Wolfgang - but I do quite often read posts without responding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 21 Apr 05 - 01:21 PM I thought the Pope was a man my mistake, the only person who didn't have any faults was Jesus the Son of God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Ernest Date: 21 Apr 05 - 02:07 PM To Joe Offer and others: I appreciate your thoughtful messages. To those, who were not able to do so: This is a music site. At least you could have said that you`d rather have an Irish Pub than a German Pope. Yours Ernest |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: dianavan Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:18 PM Joe - The group with the highest rise in AIDS in America is married women whose husbands are bringing it home from elsewhere. Shouldn't they be entitled to some protection? As to Ratzinger - It is only fitting that in this day of Bush and Blair, that the new Pope would be an inquisitor. He's just another omnipotent authority figure obsessed with controlling the masses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Gurney Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:02 AM According to the media here, he has allotted several nicknames in the past, including 'God's Rotweiller' and 'The Panzer Cardinal.' Yeah, not bad. A tree that bends in the wind isn't one to trust your weight to. And he has a lovely smile, like an older Tommy Steele. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:56 AM He's just another omnipotent authority figure obsessed with controlling the masses. *Smiles* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Donuel Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:17 AM Please forgive Ratzinger for: Being a member of the Hitler Youth movement. His stance on condoms. His demonizing John Kerry as evil incarnate due to freedom of choice issues. His overt support for the Bush family's fundamentalist evangical base. ...for he knows not what he does. Long live the Pope (At least through the presidency of Bill Frist or Jeb Bush or Schwartzenegger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Boab Date: 23 Apr 05 - 04:08 AM "Ratzinger"---reads like a Mudcat alias...! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:36 AM And Donuel, you forgot about traeting women as eguals ie women becoming Priests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 23 Apr 05 - 07:38 AM what I meant was treating women the same as men. but then the breathern don't treat women the same as men either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Amos Date: 23 Apr 05 - 08:14 AM From Maureen Dowds very tart column in today's NY Times: "Cardinal Ratzinger did not shrink from advising American bishops in the last presidential election on bringing Catholic elected officials to heel. He warned that Catholics who deliberately voted for a candidate because of a pro-choice position were guilty of cooperating in evil, and unworthy to receive communion. Vote Democratic and lose your soul. "Panzerkardinal," as he was known, definitely isn't a man who could read Mario Cuomo's Notre Dame speech urging that pro-choice politicians be allowed in the tent and say, "He's got a point." The Republicans can build their majority by bringing strict Catholics and evangelicals - once at odds - together on what they call "culture of life" issues. But there's a risk, as with Tom DeLay, Dr. Bill Frist and other Republicans, that if the new pope is too heavy-handed and too fundamentalist, his approach may backfire. Moral absolutism is relative, after all. As Bruce Landesman, a philosophy professor at the University of Utah, pointed out in a letter to The Times: "Those who hold 'liberal' views are not relativists. They simply disagree with the conservatives about what is right and wrong."" A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Donuel Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM Ms. Dowd did not mention the greater risk of succeeding in establishing an official fundamentalist christian US government in perpetuity. Talk of blasphemy laws have already seen the light of day. Drug companies risk losing many family planning product sales. Official language and official religion loopholes will crop up. Blackballing faiths, excluding the unfaithful in every strata of the culture and more devout gun toting christians enforcing god's will as they see it. The only correct use of the word evolution will become the "evolution" of the Constitution which means throwing the old quaint Constitution away. No Ms. Dowd the risks are far greater than not expanding the US Christian political party to include everyone under the same Billy Graham banner and marching off to more unilateral patriotic invasions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Apr 05 - 10:18 AM I woudln't panic. Assuming Benedict follows JP's general line, the Papacy and the wider Catholic Church are likely to continue to be at odds with the present US government on a whole range of issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: robomatic Date: 23 Apr 05 - 11:44 AM Pope John Paul II was extremely charismatic at all age levels, but apparently this did not lead to American Catholics practising his dicta regarding birth control any differently than Americans in general. It seems that the Western world, Catholic included, practices birth control if only for protection against disease, but probably also as population check. The new area of Catholic population growth seems to be in Africa and Asia, and population pressure would probably be the same regardless of what the Roman Catholic Church preached. Possibly the Pope has only his charisma anymore to ENFORCE his wishes, so it is possible for him to be praised, loved, and to an extent, ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Haruo Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM If you follow Catholic humor sites you've already seen this (Google shows me 30 occurrences), but I thought it was pretty funny when I ran into it on Thinking Baptists the other day: Karl Rahner, Hans Kung and Benedict XVI né Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger all die on the same day, and go to meet St. Peter to know their fate.Haruo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:18 AM It's history repaeting it's self again Germany taking over Poland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: The Shambles Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:38 AM Panzer Cardinal becomes Panzer Pope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: John Hardly Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:09 AM The concept, as I understand it, is that a Catholic cannot vote for a pro-choice candidate and be a Catholic in good standing if being pro-choice is the reason for voting for the candidate. There is an understanding that candidates hold positions on many issues which may be worthy of a good Catholic's vote. If those (and not pro-choice considerations) are the reason that a Catholic votes for a candidate with a pro-choice position, that is ok with the church. The same principal could be extrapolated out to include other issues like capital punishment. If one votes for a politician who is for the death penatly, that's ok. But if a Catholic votes for a candidate because he is for capital punishment, that is not ok. ...and again, it's not silly for any religious group to claim to really believe what they claim to really believe. Don't wanna be a Catholic? Nobody's begging you to be one. Don't like what Catholics believe? During the reformation, guess which side left the church. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:15 AM The Taliban is definately gaining ground these days... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 24 Apr 05 - 08:23 AM what has an Islamic regime got to do with Catholics eh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: GUEST Date: 24 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM Nice to know that the Catholic church is to blame for degenerates who give AIDS to child whores in Africa and Asia because the pope is against the use of condoms. And everyone here is so intelligent and self-righteous, the whips come out at the drop of a hat. Maybe people should stop buying sex from slaves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Tam the man Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM Why are these 'guests' frightend to give their names, as I say these 'guests' are cowards. I mean if you're going to run down everyone on this site including please have the balls to give a name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:56 AM I doubt if it's a matter of "cowardice", Tam - after all, sticking a made-up name on a post to make it possible to have a continuing discussion wouldn't make a poster any less anonymous. There's some other kind of reason involved, though I can't begin to imagine what it is. "I'm too important to use a label - my words speak for themselves", maybe? Of course it does have the advantage of never having to risk being identified as having said anything really silly, or as being totally inconsistent in an argument. The idea being to start every post with a clean slate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: keberoxu Date: 26 Jan 22 - 08:22 PM It belongs, I think, on a thread like this one, which references the pontiff now known as Benedict XVI. Few if any of us could have predicted that Benedict XVI would do what has not been done in four hundred years, and resign as Pope, permitting the Vatican to name a successor while he continues his old age in greater privacy than before. Benedict XVI is in the headlines now, for unfortunate reasons. While looking at coverage about him, I was reminded of his brother, who was older, and who recently pre-deceased him (well, two years or so ago). I remember when Benedict XVI became the Pope, and his brother accepted requests for interviews and opinions, and was as gloomy as he was forthright. After all, Georg Ratzinger wished for good health and a happy life for his younger brother, and he was rather sorrowfully resigned to the probability that as Pope his brother could not have either one of those things. Ratzinger said something to the effect that he himself would find it hard to bear, to watch his brother becoming ill and frail before his time. Against all odds, Pope Benedict XVI gave up the papacy and retreated. And against all odds, it was his brother Georg who died first. I submit a link to the Jesuit magazine America and the article memorializing Georg Ratzinger 1924 - 2020 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Rapparee Date: 26 Jan 22 - 09:35 PM The current Pope is Francis I. In Catholic teaching he is infallible in matters of faith and morals, which teaching only dates back about 150 years. He is the Head of the Catholic Church. His formal title is: Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman province, Sovereign of Vatican City-State, Servant of the Servants of God. That thing about the Sovereign of the Vatican City-State means in Vatican City his word is LAW. Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church means that what he says goes, no arguing. The Catholic Church isn't a democracy. It's a theocracy or, if you will, a theocratic monarchy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Mrrzy Date: 26 Jan 22 - 10:29 PM The current pope is Francis. He will become Francis I when there is a Francis II. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: keberoxu Date: 27 Jan 22 - 11:24 AM Right. Ratzinger is the FORMER Pope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope From: Jeri Date: 27 Jan 22 - 12:24 PM If you're going to refresh seven year old threads, learn to expect this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope [2005] From: MudGuard Date: 27 Jan 22 - 05:01 PM and expect it even more if the refreshed thread is seventeen years old ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope [2005] From: Jeri Date: 27 Jan 22 - 05:40 PM Sorry, MudGuard - math. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope [2005] From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 22 - 06:19 PM Or, as the English say: maths. |
