Take Those Spoons and Shove Them

Subject: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Beer
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:09 PM

Just back from an early gig and thought I'd share this problem. Three fiddlers and a few others as well as myself were jamming when some adult (children I can understand) decided to join in with the spoons.   I don't mind the spoons if the person can play them, but what a pain to put up with when they are not in beat. Gerry Deveau from the Cape is great with Ashley MacIsaac or Richard Woods. That I can appreciate.
I have seen my brother stop playing the fiddle in mid play and ask the person playing to take those spoons and shove them. When he was in fiddle camp two years ago one of the teachers/instructors said that a spoon player should always ask if they can join in.
Comments??

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Les B
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:46 PM

My experience is that spoon players (or most of 'em anyway) are enthusiastic wannabe's who haven't a clue that they are irritating the lead instrument players, especially fiddlers. They can rarely hold a beat and don't seem to care.

The only thing worse than spoon players (and they're usually drunk) is a drunken tuba player who comes up behind you and gives a ear-wrenching blast. Happened to me one time and I was ready to commit mayhem, even though I'm a real avoider of violence!

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:50 PM

Tell him to go cook something.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 09 May 05 - 10:55 PM

Steak knives.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Azizi
Date: 09 May 05 - 11:10 PM

Not terrible long ago I went to a used book store and I counted myself lucky to find a brand new copy of a book "The Complete Encyclopedia of Musical Instruments" ...

This book is subtitled "A comprehensive guide to musical instruments around the world".

After reading the posts in this thread I'm not sure I know what 'spoons' are. So I located that 'comprehensive guide to the world's musical instruments, and of course found no entry for 'spoons'.

So here is my sincere question: I'm guessing that 'spoons' are the same as the eating utensils, but are used to make percussive sounds in a similar to the way '{jaw} bones' were played by enslaved African Americans? Am I right?

And BTW, I 'get' that the person playing the spoons at your gig was a pest who didn't know he was messing up the set.

Also, my compliments to you on the creativity of your thread title.
Love it!

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 May 05 - 11:18 PM

Bones and similar simple percussion tools are played worldwide. The spoons are a handy, ready-made form; useful in the hands of a sensitive player, quite ghastly if played without understanding.

The subject comes up fairly regularly. See, for example:

Spoons Murder - A cautionary tale
The Spoons Murder / Return of the Spoons

Spoons, history of ???
Spoons
PLEASE, defend THE SPOONS

... and so on.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 09 May 05 - 11:56 PM

We are teaching a spoons workshop at an upcoming festival. Are we creating more monsters? We hope not. We always include a lecture on when not to play the spoons and spoons etiquette but we're sure we have put lethal weapons in the hands of at least a few heathens. Please forgive us.

We think we play tastefully and only under the right conditions. We play other instruments and have been harrassed by non-thinking people with spoons in their hands (notice we didn't say spoons players) so we know what it feels like.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:01 AM

Thanks, Macolm.

I checked out one of the threads-there's some interesting info there!-and I'll read the other threads tomorrow.

Oh and that Comprehensive musical instrument book that I bought also doesn't mention glass soda bottles which I've read are commonly used as percussive instruments in contemporary African cultures [they'r hit with a stick]...

Also, I've read that contemporary Africans also have worn flattened metal soda bottle tops as ankle braclets to add to the rhythnic sounds. And that's not listed in that musical instrument book either...

So I guess that means the book isn't really all that comprehensive...

but it does include the bodhran...

So it's got something going for it!

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:06 AM

There's only one thing worse than spoons... Tamborines...

I'll happily take a break when either comes out... even if I just got back from a break...

I have taken such away from audience members too...   Appear genuine... apprach them with a smile saying "Hey... cool... lemme see that for a second eh!?!" and when they hand the thing to you, walk away with it.. toss it out an open window or door, or into the trash and go right back to work....

When they protest, hit them with a good solid "F#CK YOU!"

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:17 AM

Don't hold back, Clinton.

Hey, Mr Tamborine Man play a song for me . . . .

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:33 AM

You know it just occured to me that I saw some guys playing the spoons when I went to hear Seamus sing in Pittsburgh.

I also saw folks beating on the tables as musical accompaniment to the songs.

And somewhat off topic, that was an interesting experience for me.
I don't think that we {African Americans}even play bones or the spoons anymore... And I KNOW we don't have music sessions for adults where a performer plays and sings old {and contemporary]
non-religious songs and the audience is expected to sing along and act out the words to songs.

The closest thing we have to that are church services and gospel concerts. With non-religious music the focus is on dancing or otherwise moving to the beat {As in 'Wave your hands in the air, and shake'em like you just don't care"}. Of course, people do sing along but it's not the same thing.

It's a shame really...But whatcha gonna do???
[rhetorical question]

Sorry for that off topic comment. I wanted to give my props to you guys and gals for keeping the old songs from your cultures
[and sometimes songs from African American culture also] alive.

I appreciate it.

And now, back to "take those spoons and shove them"...

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:12 AM

Well I was rushing to do something else and I really messed up that quote that I included in my previous post.

The quote often used in Hip-Hop songs is

"Put your hands in the air and wave them like you just don't care."


And BTW-I've never known African Americans to bring tamborines to non-religous concerts...

Also I think that far fewer Black church goers * {choir and non-choir members} bring tamborines to church or gospel concerts than was the case when I was growing up in the 1950s.

*I'm speaking here of Baptist churches, the largest Black American Christian demomination..I would expect that are more African American tamborine playing folks in santified {COGIC-Church of God In Christ} churches.

I think that the reason why non-musicians like to play the tamborine is that they can pretend that they are musicians and participate in the music making experience {which on some level is a good thing}.

But I hear what you are saying Clinton, about those tamborine players messing up a song because they don't know what they're doing.

However, when it comes to religious services, I miss those church members-usually ladies-adding to the percussive experience by playing their tamborines often in a masterful way.

While it's great that many Black Baptist churches have added snare drums, and electric guitars and basses to the organs and piano playing that they had before {something that would have been 'unheard of' less than 10 years ago}, IMO they loss something when the congregations largely ceased owning and playing tamborines.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:32 AM

Tamborines double as really noisy collection plates, too.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:41 AM

A little while back a friend, who plays pretty good lap dulcimer and occasionally plays spoons, started sitting in at our occasional C/W jam sessions.

At one session, when we'd been playing some stuff in odd keys that gave him a bit of a problem with the lap dulcimer, he got a little persistent with the spoons. His timings is good enough that it wasn't exactly annoying - but it got a little tiresome.

After one number, in which he'd actually done a good job of "spoon backup," I suggested that I thought his spoons were a little out of tune. "Tune?" Blank look. "Yeah - I think you need one of them spoon capos."

I took his spoons, examined them carefully, inserted a small piece of paper between the bowls with the explanation that "sometimes this improves the harmonic content." I squeezed the two bowls together to clamp the paper in, and whipped out a 15# tie-wrap (electrical wire tie) and clamped it tightly around the handles, right at the base of the bowls. Nipped the excess end off the tie with a pair of wire cutters, flamed the cut end with a cig lighter to smooth the sharp edge, handed the spoons back with the comment "There - they'll sound a lot better on the next number with that capo on 'em."

He sat through the next number, looking at the spoons in his hand, then at the players around the room, and then back at the spoons - with a slightly puzzled look on his face. He actually did go along with it and did "pretend spoons" (sort of like air guitar) to the next number, before I took pity and clipped the "capo" off for him.

He still plays with us regularly - but plays the spoons a bit less, perhaps; and is a lot better at judging when they're appropriate - and when not. He still gets a bit of kidding about "his spoon capo," but takes it pretty well. And he has "saved us" from a couple of other total amateurs who made truly bad attempts to join in with spoons, by showing them enough to get them able to play with at least a semblance of timing.

We've joked about needing to make up a good commercial "spoon capo" and get it on the market, but I think there's the limitation that you would only really get by with it with someone who's a fairly good friend...

John

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:41 AM

On the above, Azizi, it seems the participation is slowly being taken out of the services. If the congregation lose their tambourines the band is in control of the music and the band is controlled by the priest. In England it was taken a bit further when the West Gallery bands were replaced by organists.

On the use of recycled objects as musical accompaniment, this is common anywhere there are poor people and where percussion instruments are required spontaneously. I've seen bottles being played in many an Irish session and I've seen instruments made from biscuit tins and cigar boxes. Skiffle bands were quite popular in Britain in the 50's and 60's, the music being based on American jug band music. Washboards were used for percussion and a tea-chest and broom became a bass.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 May 05 - 04:22 AM

Oh dear... yet another way to alienate people from traditional music... by taking away the only way they feel they can join in.

My reaction to someone telling where to shove my spoons would be to demonstrate on them.

And it is possible to find tuneful spoons, I spent ages in my local junk shops finding two spoons that sounded well together. A little shaving with an angle grinder (or the Dremel hand held tool) can improve the tone no end.

LTS

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 May 05 - 06:03 AM

LtS -

I've found that the plain old "tablespoons" - 6 for $1 from Wally World (I sneak in late at night so friends won't see me there) work just fine. Two steel pop-rivets up at the end of the handles. Although it's not recommended for structural work, a couple of good whacks with a ball-pien hammer smooths the rivets, and a pass on the buffing wheel makes it look nice.

The real key to making them sound decent is in the "bending in" to get the bowls aligned right, and with a proper gap. Too much gap makes them hard to play (but does make them louder). Too small a gap makes them pretty "dead." By proper "tuning" of the handle alignment you can make them so they're not too objectionable and provide a suitable "click" - more like a castenet - rather than the obnoxious "clang" you get from most of the "toy" ones found for sale.

John

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:38 AM

The main problem comes from folk who just take two spoons out of the cutlery draw and think that they can add something to any piece of music by banging them together.

A friend at a Hertford session is a very good spoons player and makes it look oh so easy, but it AIN'T. You need a good ear to 'tune' the spoons and a good sense of rythm to play along. Like a number of bodhran players amateur spoon players don't seem to understand when their input is appropriate.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:42 AM

John,

Do you mean to rivet them together? If you leave them seperated it allows you to adjust the positioning as you play. You can then play loud or soft (relatively) and get a variety of different sounds. You can play them between your cupped hand and knee (the standard position) or play them as bones, which would be hard if they were joined together.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Beer
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:49 AM

Should have taken the time to see if there were other threads to this subject. Oh well!
Bev and Jerry you have it right. A little etiquette can go a long way. I'm picking on spoon players, but would you permit a person to join in on the drums, guitar or whatever instrument if they had no clue of the chords/rhythm? LTs, not trying to alienate. I can play the spoons, comb and several other cheap instruments. But I would never join in unless I asked permission first.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Splott Man
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:49 AM

Come to Pat Smith's spoons workshop at the West Somerset Folk Festival on 1-3 July. You'll be playing the William Tell verture after an hor.

You can then go to the proms and join in.

Shameless plug or what?

Yes you do have to be sparing in their use, likewise any percussion.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:50 AM

What do I think of spoons? Makes me think of an old Limerick:

There once was a girl from Havana,
Who thought she could play the piana
And what do you know, on her very first show
She got hit with a rotten banana.

Let's face it, there are those who confuse desire with ability.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: An Englishman Abroad
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:55 AM

I know just what you mean about spoon players. Would you include Bones players in the same way?

It would be less painful.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:02 AM

Three fiddlers and a few others as well as myself were jamming...

And people joined in? Is a jam a closed thing? Were you performing?

~Puzzled

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:27 AM

...and this is why Thimbles O'Hooligan stays away from folk clubs!
[Loud cheering from folkies!]
RtS
(aka ToH)

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:30 AM

A jam can be a closed thing. it's polite to ask if you can join in before doing so even if it's an open jam.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:33 AM

Jamming is about making music with likeminded people. It is about harmony. When someone comes along who is not in time or in tune with the rest of the group then it stops being a jam and starts becoming an irritation for all but the person who has spoilt it for the rest.

I have experienced this at singarounds where a 'musician' has started to accompany me unasked. If they are good, fine with most songs although some are best acapella. When the 'accompaniment' is out of tune or playing twiddly bits to show off I get pissed off and can quite understand how Beer felt on this one. There is one particular mandolin player that I would have loved to tell to shove his instrument right up his arse, but that just isn't done, is it? But why should most people's enjoyment have to be spoilt so that one idiot can feel that they are joining in?

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 05 - 08:36 AM

Clueless people are so damn clueless.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Beer
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:15 AM

Right on "jacqui"
Beer

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:21 AM

same applies to dimwitted arrogant stoned twats who take bongos
to every local free festival
then sit in a big matey circle in front of the performance area/stage
smoking and banging away relenlesssly during all the booked artists performances..

..oh yes tambourines..
those dopey hippy women lead singers dancing around
the stage like demented dervishes
[imagine your worst nightmare aunty ater too many alchopops at an xmas party..]

non stop crashing their bloody tambourines up close to the lead vocal mic..
cos its her band... and she can..

while her hired backing musicians soldier on patiently and painfully..


no contempory names mentioned..

but theres a cruel example video from the mid 70's where emmy lou harris
dances and clatters away on the tambo distracting all
from Albert lee superb guitar playing..

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:34 AM

Beer - If I were running a session, I wouldn't dream of making people ask permission if they could play. It's that kind of snotty, exclusive attitude that really pisses me and a lot of other folks off and discourages going to sessions.

It's the same with the attitude that some people have where they MUST sit in a certain place because they can't see (or be seen) what is going on, regardless of whether it cuts out half the people in the room or not. I appreciate that most sessions are held in places not really conducive to group seating, but with a little consideration, seating can be arranged so that everyone is made to feel included.

We've had the etiquette discussion many times, many many times here, and it all comes round to the same thing.... consideration and respect for all there, something that has been sadly lacking from some of the postings.

LTS

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 May 05 - 10:13 AM

What I've found discourages people from going to sessions is the people who don't know when to join in and when not to. I can think of one Hertfordshire person who can almost empty a session when he turns up, because of that sort of behaviour. I've even heard him playing a different tune to the performer at a singaround because he doesn't like that person.

On person badly out of time, especially a percission instrument, can ruin any tune and that puts others off of bothering to continue to play for ENJOYMENT.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 05 - 11:50 AM

And the worst thing about clueless people is, they don't know they are clueless!

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:31 PM

Well said LtS

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 10 May 05 - 12:44 PM

Nothing worse than any instument played badly, and percussion can be a particular problem. However, I've have been lucky enough never to have come across a bad spoon or bodhran player (yet). I love playing fiddle with good rhythmic accompaniment. I think that SPOONS ARE GREAT and love it when people join in. Good percussion is so exciting!

Richard (in a controversial mood)

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:07 PM

Everybody should ask everybody else's permission before doing anything. The spoons players should have asked everyone's permission to play, and each fiddler should have asked all present, as well. (Actually, the thought of three fiddlers playing at the same time, probably not in tune, chills my blood.)

It was unforgiveable for the children to be childish, too. All children should be forbidden to do anything, and probably to exist at all. My metro area had about 5000 abortions in 2003, the last year for which data have been collected. Way to go!

Probably we should all just watch TV. Nothing's imperfect in TV-land.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Azizi
Date: 10 May 05 - 02:44 PM

Okay. You got me for a minute there.

Yep, I salute you.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 05 - 06:29 PM

I like kids, it's the ones who never grow up that bug me.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 May 05 - 06:50 PM

Well, now that the subject of kids has come up, we must confess that through our school programs we have taught about 500,000 kids to play the spoons. This was done as part of our effort to teach them that music is a participative phenomenon and not something in which they have a passive role.

So, if your in the U.S. and you are bothered by a lousy spoons player, you can probably blame us. Go ahead, we can take it.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: LilyFestre
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:00 PM

Hmmmm...if it's a jam that is open to the public, why should one have to ask? Also, how does one get good at playing at a jam unless one plays? Everyone has to start somewhere you know....

Michelle

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:04 PM

One plays very quietly to begin with until you have the ability to join in without causing problems for other players. Consideration should go both ways but some people don't seem to understand that.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:34 PM

manitas asked about the riviting:

Granting that a pair of loose spoons from the cutlery drawer is the traditional instrument, it really does take some practice to be able to hold and control them that way. That just makes the obnoxious learner more so, and for longer. We don't have any "serious" spooners in our crowd, and a pair of spoons with a couple of rivets to hold them together makes it easy enough to control them so that casual players - with due consideration to their appropriate use - can do credible rhythm. Since they're sort of a "novelty" act anyway, we've not been troubled much with anyone who's only instrument is spoons.

Those who want the added flexibility of "separated" parts would really be better off with claves, I would think. We have seen a couple of kids who put on pretty spectacular acts with two-fisted claves, but those with enough talent to do it well usually move on to other instruments fairly quickly.

The "toy" spoons sold by vendors at the festivals are just noisemakers. Some of them have two spoons riveted to a 6 or 8 inch long wooden handle so they can be whacked really hard and make a lot of noise. These usually are annoying enough even to the ignorant parents who bought them "to shut the kids up" that they get "lost" fairly quickly.

For the real traditionalist, the proper rhythm instrument would be the "hambone." Does anybody do that anymore?

John

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 May 05 - 07:37 PM

it depends on the host(s) whether a 'jam' or an Irish session, is open to anyone who wants to play. In general that should be the case. However it is perfectly appropriate to mention to someone, (take them off to the side not embarrass them in front of everyone) if their playing is disturbing the others, ie. a guitarist who has no clue what chords to play, a percussion player who is too loud, or not in rhythm etc..
as it does ultimately spoil it for the others.

We got to our session once and found our host (who is blind) surrounded by 5 Bodhran players around the table, and the melody instruments had no place to sit. They didnt get it, they think that if they get there first they should be able to sit where they want, or for that matter whether theyre even welcome.

Session etiquette is common sense, but sometimes you must choose between being polite and having a good session.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:27 AM

If you want to have a private jam/session, don't hold it in a public bar!!

LTS

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Splott Man
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:56 AM

Thanks for the offer,

Bev & Jerry, it's all your fault!

:-)

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: GUEST,Auldtimer
Date: 11 May 05 - 01:33 PM

As a spoon player and a singer I can see a musicians point of view about playing spoons uninvited. If musicians play along uninvited when I am singing I make sure I play my loudest and worst when they try to play. If you are at a session only to be heard and not to hear, listen too and enjoy the other players and singers, stay at home. Sessions should be inclusive NOT exclusive.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 May 05 - 03:30 PM

Thanks, Splott Man, we needed that.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 May 05 - 04:35 PM

I dont know about 'jams' but Irish sessions, are not necessarily open to anyone who comes, whether in a public space or not. It really depends on the hosts, and the level of the session etc. Most people will ask if they can join in, and most are welcome, but if someone comes with djembe

We have never sent anyone away, but those who come, and insist on loudly playing the wrong chords or banging away at a bodhran regardless of the beat will usually be told discreetly to keep it quiet, or to bone up on playing chords etc. as they are in fact ruining the session for the other players. Weve also asked the percussion, guitars etc. to sit on the outskirts and leave room for the melody instruments.

There is another session at the same bar on another night, which is more of a beginner session, so we can direct beginners there.

We also have a French Canadian session, in which percussion is strictly limited, no bodhrans (certainly not part of the French Canadian tradition).

its all common sense anyway, and theres a continuum between having anyone to play anything.. and having an enjoyable experience
(one regular bodhran player, started handing out spoons and noisemakers to people at nearby tables, well you can guess this didnt add to the musical experience.)

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 05 - 08:14 PM

I remember a child who turned up at an official "English" session in Sidmouth with a bodhran many years ago. She had obviously been to a workshop and beat out a perfect rhythm. Unfortunately it was the same rhythm all the time and bore no realtionship to anything being played. The parent got quite upset when she was asked to stop during a specially requested solo.

Subject: RE: Take Those Spoons and Shove Them
From: kendall
Date: 11 May 05 - 08:21 PM

Attack of the clueless...