BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX

Subject: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:03 AM

THE WSJ - JOURNAL REPORT: SMALL BUSINESS

Know When to Give Up It's hard to call it quits. Sometimes it's harder not to.

By ANDREW BLACKMAN Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL May 9, 2005; Page R9

Never give up.

That may be a good motivational mantra, but it isn't always the best advice for a small-business owner.

In fact, sometimes the hardest part about being in business for yourself can be to admit when you are beat, that you are throwing good money after bad, that it is time to call it quits.

Maybe there's a time to admit: It wasn't such a great idea, after all. Or if it was a good idea, it isn't a good idea now.

Around half a million small businesses close up shop every year>

Once you've made the tough decision, sticking to it can be hard, too. "You get phone calls afterward from people asking, 'How come you're not in business anymore?' And one side of me wanted to say, 'OK, I'll do your basket for you,' " Ms. Martz says. "But then I had to tell myself, 'No, it's finished now.' "

Some continue to try long after the signals have all turned red.

Having exhausted all of the possibilities, they shut the site down in mid-2001 and wound up the business.

But on top of the financial considerations, what made it really impossible to continue the business was the breakdown of the friendship among the partners.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 05 - 01:07 AM

Garg:

The MEDS, man...it's the MEDS. When ya gonna learn!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Azizi
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:38 AM

I hope Gargoyle isn't suggesting to Max that Mudcat is a failure..

In spite of the computer cliches that sometimes close this website's front and back doors, I would say that Mudcat is very successful.

Mudcat's music/folklore threads provide opportunities for folks around the world to learn from each other.

Mudcat's BS threads provide opportunities for folks to relax, share witticisms, and discuss important {and not so important}
non-music/folklore topics.

I am very thankful that I found this site and want to say thank you Max, and Joe Offer, and others who continue to provide us with this forum for interesting multi-cultural interactions.


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 May 05 - 08:59 AM

Di'nt yer mom tell you to gargoyle every morning after you brush your teeth? Azizi. Mudcat has it's very own gargoyle.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:30 AM

I'm probably posting less than I used to, back when it seemed that every thread had some gold to be mined. However, I can't blame Max that most of the lingering questions I had about music that had accumulated in my brain over 50 years have been largely answered.

However, there's always a new crop of "guests" with their own similar set of questions and I still find an interesting thread or two every day, or start one myself maybe once a week.

I think I should also thank Max and Mudcat for inspiring my song writing and musical adaptation of existing poems. Some of my creative efforts appear to hold up beyond my initial enthusiasm and I'm really grateful for the feedback this forum provides.

I've also found Mudcat invaluble for making musical contacts in places my wife and I were planning to visit. We've met many wonderful people, swapped songs and stories, whom we would never have tracked down as mere tourists.

So, Max, thanks again for a great service. There is a special place for you, no doubt, in that great blues place in the sky.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 12 May 05 - 09:58 AM

My compliments, Jerry for a good play on words!

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:18 AM

"Know when to give up" is excellent advice for business owners, but is the Mudcat a business in the conventional sense of the word? No. It's really a public service. And the success of public services and profit-seeking businesses can't be measured by the same yardstick.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:48 AM

Why doesn't Gargoyle seem to know when it's time for him to give up.

Mudcat members recently gave me encouragement to fight back after a pretty major stroke, and I still find plenty of things on Mudcat to inform me, amuse me, keep me in touch, and also help with other people's questions etc. I'm sure it deserves to be mentioned in the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy - anyone know how to get in touch with Ford Prefect.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 12 May 05 - 10:52 AM

My advice to Mr Max? Simple.... dump all this stuff about blues and start a flamenco version of mudcat. You know I am right!

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 May 05 - 02:04 PM

Dave Bryant:

The Real Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was (at one time) still accepting submissions. I don't know whether it still is, but I must dig out & dust off my copy to re-read.
Some of the quotes in it from science fiction fans are hilarious

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:06 PM

Mudcat is hardly a failed enterprise that should be abandoned. Yes, there are technical glitches, and yes, sometimes the level of discourse leaves something to be desired, but the site is still a unique and positive contribution to contemporary cybercivilization.

Like Dave Bryant, I found Mudcat an especially helpful resource during a fairly-recent health crisis, but in an entirely different manner:

I never mentioned my cancer diagnosis and treatment here until after the whole ordeal was successfully completed, so I neither asked for nor received personal support from fellow members. For me, continued participation in the forum was a way to proceed with my "normal" life without being forced into the role of pitiful cancer patient, and ~ until I got to the point where I lost the energy to participate at all for a month or two ~ it was very therapeutic to have a context in which I could playact at being my normal healthy self.

Also, dating back to my first discovery of Mudcat, a year or more before I got sick, hanging around here and taking part in the discussions has more-or-less "shamed" me into picking up my guitar and starting to play/practice much more reguarly than I had in years, and that has certainly been a beneficial and healthy development!

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 May 05 - 03:56 PM

I was just thinking the other day that Gargoyle hardly ever starts threads(not that I do it much anymore either). Thanks for making the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:58 AM

It'd be incredible if we had a forum to post our music up here.
All of us Blues, Folk, etc. musicians could REALLY interact with each other.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:07 AM

And it would become a free host for millions of wannabe singers who have nowhere else to hang up their MP3s. It would crash the first DAY when Google got word of that option.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:49 AM

We would just have to weed out the "wannabes", and take care of it like a REAL music forum.....

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:51 AM

Chris, that would be totally against Mudcat tradition. Review any of The Shambles' censorship threads for an overview of the firestorm that would occur.

People interact now, with sound, via PalTalk.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 May 05 - 11:52 AM

nothing to prevent you posting your music on another site and discussing it here. Many have done it. Why expect Max to take the responsibility and the possible legal ramifications?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 May 05 - 12:07 PM

Advice for Max? Okay...........................Tell ya' what I'd do if I were in your shoes. First, I'd take them off since I wear a 13. Then I'd cover my nuts with both hand and keep an eye out for my size 13 sliding in between your legs. If I was you.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:29 PM

I don't have the capablities to participate in PalTalk.
That's all live recording with your computer, isn't it?

I have discussed my music here, but it's always passed over so people could talk about politics... and I'm not part of some elite group I guess. I was quietly told to shut up, and post my CD description in the PermaThread.

When I first joined this forum I was so excited to be able to interact with so many musicians that were interested in the kind of music I was. There wasn't a day where I didn't post something, or talk to some nice people in MudChat. Everyone was curious what I did, and I was curious about them.
Then, when I was actually able to share my music with my so-called peers, people wanted to talk about spatulas.

So much for support...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:32 PM

There are threads above the line and there are threads below the line. You WILL encounter music and related stuff above the line. Below the line you will encounter spatulas, politics, etc. Just the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:34 PM

" So much for support..."

You're on the wrong MB if it's support you're looking for...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:40 PM

Chris - you don't have to participate in paltalk to share music. You have a site. You can post clips there. You can post lyrics. YOu can post chords. YOu can initiate discussions.

you can bring your threads back after they have dropped off the main page. (better to do that then to start new ones, actually)

and even when no one POSTS to a thread - that doesn't mean it isn't being read, enjoyed and thought about. In fact there are a lot of threads where one person is the primary poster - because they are purely informational, or reference threads, or indexes.

But also remember - just saying "I have a new CD" isn't an invitation to discussion.

"I have a new CD, and I'd like your opinion on the chords changes on this clip (link)" is ian invitation to discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 13 May 05 - 01:55 PM

The above the lines definitely don't outweigh the below the lines. People would rather talk about Bush, and breasts.
Yet, if a select few post threads for audio or CDs, people jump all over it, and are ready with pats on the back.

As far as bringing back threads, I've done that, and was yelled at.
Besides I always hated when people just read things and didn't post responses. Of course, if I keep bumping and re-posting people accuse me of "Shameless Self-promotion".

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:00 PM

chris - I spent 30 plus years being told not to sing and that when I did I sounded like a dying cow. I now have 2 cds. People even pay for them.

You gotta keep going on.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Ernest
Date: 13 May 05 - 02:14 PM

Besides helping us to find information about music mudcat has brought people together! Think of all the meetings etc. happening through mudcat (although I only met one catter yet, this has been worth it - PoppaGator and his wife are really nice people!)
All the best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:13 PM

You having a pityme day, Chris? Sounds like you'd like to have the support from below the line while posting info that goes above the line. And the only time I remember you getting 'yelled' at was when you refreshed a ton of threads. All things in moderation, as they say.

I don't understand what subject(s) you would like to discuss. (I almost put a question mark there, then realized it would look like a Sha---les question. *G*)

I figure if there is a subject you'd like to discuss that is not covered, start one. As you know, most of the posts above the line seem to exhaust their subject fairly rapidly- there is only so much one can say about someone's upcoming venue, or the attributes of one guitar versus another. (But even then, there are exceptions- look at the Raglan Road threads- dozens of threads and fascinating insights.)

As for support- what goes 'round, comes 'round.

All this IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 06:16 PM

'Of course, if I keep bumping and re-posting people accuse me of "Shameless Self-promotion".'

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Peace
Date: 13 May 05 - 07:22 PM

"The above the lines definitely don't outweigh the below the lines. People would rather talk about Bush, and breasts."

Chris, I have made a few contributions by helping people locate stuff they are looking for. If I find anything that might be of value to those people who study/collect folklore, I post it. However, there are other excellent, educated and bright researchers here, and they often provide definitive answers because they are good at what they do and they love it. (On most topics to do with folklore, hey, Mr Google is my friend.) There is sometimes something else to talk about afterwards, but often not.

I am also interested in many threads below the line. I look above for LYR REQUEST or CHORDS WANTED, etc. Sometimes I can be helpful with that. I look below for the helluvit.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 05 - 08:25 PM

Incidentally, in my post above I meant "dozens of posts", not threads. Of course. Nothing wrong here...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 May 05 - 02:16 AM

I should just say "fuck it" and post like crazy 'til I get some kind of response... I've got a few years to kill.

It's not about pity, it's about the truth. Some people just can't take it.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 May 05 - 03:23 AM

You'll starve to death on the CDs you 'll sell or the MP3s you give away here at Mudcat Chris... Even if the only bread you need is acknowledgement...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 May 05 - 03:31 AM

Very good point CH.
You're one of the few here that tells it like it is...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 10:44 AM

All people tell it like it is from their perspective and in their world.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,"Truth"?
Date: 14 May 05 - 11:00 AM

Chris,

You have received quite a bit of good advice in this thread and at other times, which is the same approach others here have followed AND FOUND EFFECTIVE.

Mudcat is not a great tit to suck. It's a community. Your focus has been broadcasting your needs instead of offering others a hand.

Such as--

<> How many Catters' CDs have you bought or been sent as a friend?
<> For how many of these have you posted a review?
<> How many Catter CDs have you bid on in the Auction, or reviewed positively in an Auction thread?
<> Where are your CDs in the Mudcat Auction?
<> Have you sent your CD to the Catter who writes reviews for the Philly Folksong Society? Did he review it or pass it on to another PFS revirewer, if it was not his personal taste?
<> Have you READ the thread full of Catter CDs (and the other one with the PFS reviews), and have you bought or commented on any of these?
<> Have you sent review copies of your CD to anyone here as a gift, or requesting a review?
<> Been to any Mudcat events to get to know people and let them hear you live?
<> Been to any Catters' concerts and reviewed/bought their music?

No?

Try a few of those common Mudcat practices, and you might get a better sense of this place as a community. It CAN be a place for encouragement from your peers and your elders, as you take risks in your career OUTSIDE Mudcat. But it is neither a marketplace nor your mom.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 01:13 PM

"common Mudcat practices"

My ass

Whining and sucking about government, and standing around in circles with their backs to the wind are more 'common Mudcat practices'

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 01:38 PM

Dear "My ass,"

Not when it comes to our music. Not in the upper (music) section of the community.

;=)

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 01:42 PM

"Whining and sucking about government, and standing around in circles with their backs to the wind are more 'common Mudcat practices'"

And your point is?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 01:57 PM

No point? Then why say it?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 02:38 PM

"Not in the upper (music) section of the community."
Then it's obvious you don't read many or any Above BS threads

"And your point is?"
It can be a pretty sorry excuse for a 'music' site and to call it a community is to only use the broadest of definitions

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 14 May 05 - 03:09 PM

You sound so ANGry. Bad day?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 15 May 05 - 04:12 AM

You're only a guest. Piss off...

: )

Who's having the bad day?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:22 PM

Everybody was a guest yesterday, cause this place is run like crap...

Good luck with your music Chris... Keep looking... there's support out there...

Don't rely on some virtual 'community' of mostly wankers for it...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Peace
Date: 15 May 05 - 01:29 PM

Hey, Chris. How ya doing? Message me, will you? Love to hear how life is going--particularly the music side of things. We ain't talked for months it seems.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 15 May 05 - 11:36 PM

Thanks CH. I don't. But this is the place that opened me up to the rest of the great sites on the 'Net.
I was just hoping I could make some friends here. If not... oh well.
I've made plenty elsewhere, and have done lots of good things.

How are YOUR musical endeavors going?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 16 May 05 - 08:46 AM

chris - the 'cat is like any community - some people slip in and feel like they've been here forever - some become legends overnight, some are overnight successes (after years) and some we will only realize how much we enjoyed/liked/depended on when they are gone.


Take from the cat what you will; give to it what you will - and there *WILL* be people who appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Charmion
Date: 16 May 05 - 09:53 AM

I think of the Mudcat as a virtual kitchen party hosted by Max in his house with some help from his friends -- Joe and the clones. The usual rules of purely social relationships apply: we're here to make friends and be friendly, not to use each other to achieve political or economic objectives.

We come to the Mudcat because it's essentially about music; we stay -- as at any party -- because we find like-minded people here, having a chat beside the refrigerator, or playing tunes, or remembering the words of some ditty Granddad used to sing while weeding the garden.

The BS threads are party chat, started by people going to their friends with some concern or just passing the time of day with a little whimsy. (If you don't want to continue spinning the William Shatner joke, there's no law that says you have to!) In my tiny social world, this behaviour is quite normal. I wouldn't do it at choir practice (which is more business than social) but I would certainly do it at a kitchen party.

Max makes the rules because it's his house. If we don't like the rules, we can have our own party or find another party that's more to our taste. I like this party. Max is a great host, and an unbelievably tolerant and generous one.

Charmion

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 16 May 05 - 03:06 PM

Only most people don't call their party a music discussion forum for the Folk and Blues community, and invite the whole world.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:02 PM

Most people also wouldn't let their 'house' get this trashed without doing something about it...

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:35 PM

This 'party' is what we make it.

We have probably all known instances in the 'real' world when too few volunteers are having to do too much so that they eventually burn out. I don't think that will happen with Joe and the Clones; I just HOPE it doesn't happen to Max. Keep in mind that Max too is a volunteer. Not only is he not making money from this site it is costing him money, not to mention having to live with the attendant complaints and grievances of all kinds.

When people complain so bitterly it reminds me of a love affair where one of the participants decides that the pleasure is not worth the hassle. When a person feels that way, sometimes it is time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST,PoppaGator
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:41 PM

chris,

You're my hero, if for no other reason, for starting the "You Must Leave Now!" thread. I've gotten burnt out on it more than once, and currently haven't participated in weeks, but it's always fun to check in on the constantly ongoing free-association melee there.

If you were the one-and-only target of that campaign against "shameless self promotion, " I wasn't aware of it. I thought it applied to any number of individuals and bands to various degrees, and even if it was primarily directed at any single act, I really thought that a certain British group was the true target ~ not you. But I could be wrong; I try not to pay too much attention to personality issues, gossip, etc.

I've got nothing to sell here, and very rarely buy anyone's recordings, either ~ not well-know established acts, and not friends and acquaintances, either in "3D" real life or in cyberspace.

As I see it, this site is not only stridently non-commercial, it also not so much as music as it is about talking about music ~ or, to be more precise, writing about music.

When I first began seeing your name, I found your contributions interesting and enjoyable, and I certainly noticed that we shared many of the same tastes and interests. You certainly have more to contribute than a pitch to sell your product, and (as others have pointed out), this isn't the most promising market for such sales anyway. If and when you're ready to resume trading in ideas and wisecracks rather than in recording sales, we can all start having fun together again.

And oh yeah, Ernest: Hi there buddy! Thanks for the kind words. Ernest ~ a Berliner ~ and his French-Canadian girlfriend Louise are nice folks too, and I wish them the best in their l-o-o-o-o-n-g distance relationship. Improbably enough, they share an interest in Ireland and Irish music, and met while hiking the Ring of Kerry. I wish 'em the best, and hope they can decide which one will move, so that they can both live on the same side of the Atlantic!

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 May 05 - 01:58 PM

The party now rather reminds me of one where everyone brings a bottle and the party is going very well until certain guests (put on masks) and volunteer to prevent others from attending - pick fights - introduce a dress code - - seize all the booze - seduce your partner call everyone names and tell the rest of the invited guests to 'learn to live with it'.

They then start claiming that not only the party is theirs but act as if the whole house was and tell you that if you don't like what they have turned the party into - it is time for you to go somewere else.

My arse.....If these volunteers do not like the party we all were invited to by Max - they can start their own.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:18 PM

yeah shambles - and you remind me of the person who goes to a party and then tells everyone the next day a version of it that is unrecognizable by anyone else who attended.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:24 PM

Shambles, are you a pathological liar or are you just unable to recognize the truth?

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:34 PM

Shambles, to add my voice to the outcry: Your party reminds me more of one particular guest who goes from group to group gossiping about each to the other. That guest believes that he has the information right but he doesn't bother to check it out with either group. In the meantime he is causing a lot of disgruntled feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 05 - 02:46 PM

I was going to post to this , but as so many anonymous posts have turned to abuse ( Again ) I wont bother .
But Chris - I listened to some of your stuff and was impressed , but its not my kind of music - good though it certainly is .

Subject: RE: BS: ADVICE to Mr. MAX
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 05 - 03:10 AM

Shambles, to add my voice to the outcry: Your party reminds me more of one particular guest who goes from group to group gossiping about each to the other. That guest believes that he has the information right but he doesn't bother to check it out with either group. In the meantime he is causing a lot of disgruntled feelings.

Ebbie- Would you agree that there is not one but many parties able to take place at same time in Max's house? And that all of these varied tastes can quite easily be accomodated without affecting the others.

We seem to have reached a point where the the guests of some parties - feel and are encouraged they can and should impose their tastes upon other parties and even ask for these to be closed these down - when no one is being forced to even open the door - let alone join in that party.

Is the Mudcat Discussion Forum now only for the 'gruntled' to express how 'gruntled' they are and to pass judgement on anyone who may not be so 'gruntled' and tell them to go away? Or is it to still TRY and tolerate and every (moderatly expressed) public view?