BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

I posted early in this thread to critique Hakman for jumpin' at conclusions. Well, his jump was more accurate than my comment. This is a sad tragedy which has nothing to do with whether the young man was illegally working in the country or not or spoke good English or not. He clearly did not deserve what happened to him and nothing can bring him back.

Heard an English commentator say today (08/17/05)the latest version of the police story is that one policeman was watching the suspicious residence but was 'relieving himself' as the 'suspect' exited hence gave as his best guess whether they were dealing with a terrorist or not.

While in the Boston area, the city police killed an innocent bystander during the night of the public celebration for the big win of the Red Sox over the Yankees in late 'o4. The cops were using s'posedly non-lethal riot gear, but no one was rioting. They shot the young lady in the eye with it. One thing I'll give them, the new lady chief of police made no excuses and spun no story. However, they have soft pedaled the fact that other people were shot with this equipment without provocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:55 PM

test

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:12 PM

Especially Anne Rum'n coke!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 12:32 PM

I wouldn't hold your breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:39 AM

The only people jumping barriers and running were police.

The victim walked onto the station, not wearing a heavy jacket(with no wires), picked up a newspaper, was held by one policeman while another one shot him. Looks like all he did wrong was to resemble (slightly) one of the suspects (narrow face and darkish skin).

Are we now going to get apologies from all the Catters who kept saying he had it coming to him for behaving suspiciously?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:21 AM

Suicide, Kendall? Maybe where you live. By UK standards this is looking increasingly like murder.

Inquiry documents leaked

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:33 AM

Nice big ice lollipop?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:21 AM

well maybe me is not so brainiest as yous but i know wot me would dig!

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

you forgot the question mark....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:33 PM

"Today's Tony Blair Quotes:"

Well he's a smart geezer innit

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:46 PM

The flaw with that, Wolfgang is, if they actually suspected he was carrying a bomb, they should never have let him on that bus without doing something to make sure he wasn't. I suspect it probably was rather like that - but if so, it involved police playing fast and loose with the lives of people travelling on public transport in an irresponsible way.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:45 PM

The flaw with that, Wolfgang is, if they actually suspected he's without doing something to make sure he wasn't. I suspect it probably was somethingrather like that - but if so, it involved police playing fast and loose with the lives of people travelling on public transport in an irresponsible way.

That's not hindsight, it's foresight.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:27 PM

More photos of Mr. Menezes show him as decidedly light skinned - he had dark curly hair, and to me he looks Welsh. A fair few Italians settled in Wales and although their olive skin shade has not survived the dark hair and eyes have. Not all skin colouring is determined genetically.

Tony Blair on the other hand is decidedly dark at the moment. Propaganda paint-on fake tan perhaps?

It seems some don't realise how cosmopolitan a place London is - if everyone even slightly dark skinned was a suspect to be detained then very little proper policing would get done.

Britain has never been a nation of uniformly pale skinned fair haired people. Racism here in the UK is based more an accent, dress and vulnerability than any truelly genetic component.

After all the reports since the event I still don't understand why someone would run into a London tube station when challenged by police. After the events of this month it does not make sense.

A newpaper seller outside the station is reported as having seen Mr Menezes running from police who were identifying themselves and telling him to stop.

Was there some reason for him to run?

Can anyone put forward a sensible reason why a person legally living and working in the UK, and going about his normal business should be terrified out of logical thought and behaviour by being told to stop by the police?

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 12:16 PM

Today's Tony Blair Quotes:

"Al-Qaeda is not on the same par as the IRA.... It was invidious to make comparisons"
"IRA political demands could not be directly compared to fundamentalists who carried out the 9/11 US attacks."
"I don't think the IRA would ever have set about trying to kill 3,000 people,"
"I don't think you can compare the political demands of republicanism with the political demands of this terrorist ideology we're facing now."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:55 AM

Metchosin,

my only point was that your logical time to check him out was not so logical but just one possible guess.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM

That probably gets covered under 'Freedom', Metchosin

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:46 AM

Dwight forgot to mention along with security, the expectation of being raped with impunity too. Then again, this was a man who also thought using the atom bomb to blast the St. Lawrence Seaway was a good idea. However, his warning regarding the military industrial complex was prudent, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S. general and 34th president (1890-1969)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:00 AM

Wolfgang, almost every post on this thread concerning this incident is hindight and speculation including yours. However, checking out a person of suspicion is done in this country all the time and is generally considered the logical action of a prudent police force.

Here such action is standard regarding the possession of drugs/alcohol/stolen property or surprize! even concealed weaponsand sometimes, unfortunately, as in the UK, conducted just as an excuse for harassment based upon the racial or ethnic prejudice of individual officers.

According to Mr.de Menezes' cousin, this practice is or was standard in Britain too. Mr. de Menezes had been checked out by police in the past for lesser concerns than possibly carrying a bomb. All police searches carry an element of risk to the officers involved, even for a pocket full of marijuana, but, it is their job, even when things get very tough indeed.   

A little game of I Spy and put a few bullets in his head if things get too dicey in a crowd? Get real Wolfgang, one expects competence from a professional police force, even more so during a time of crisis. This is not a computer game or movie fer gawds sake and the public has the right to expect the police not to deliberately put them in harms way.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:17 AM

from Human rights lawyer discusses police killing

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 07:25 AM

Thick gobshite, eh?

Look how far that thinking has gotten you in the past.

Take the lid off the jam-jar you live in, and jump out every once in a while

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 07:14 AM

You're arguing from hindsight, Metchosin.

If the police was sure from the onset they had to prevent a serious incident their acting was lousy. But that's not how it goes.

- A suspect (only reason for the suspicion: the address) leaves the house. Let's follow him to find other suspects or a hideout.
He enters a (perhaps quite empty) bus: Let's follow him
- He has a bulky jacket: He could be transporting a bomb or be on a suicide mission or just so: Let's follow him and watch closely. Meanwhile phone to get permission to shoot, just in case.
- He goes to a tube station (more people around than in the bus): It's getting more risky, let's challenge him to find out whether he is a terrorist or innocent.
When challenged he runs and jumps a barrier: Then and only then with seconds to go the idea 'we have to act immediately' comes in their minds and they act as trained.

With him not starting running he'd be still alive. But from his position I also can understand why he started running. There are a lot of hypothetical scenarios in which running and jumping was the best action. Unfortunately, in the actual case it wasn't. If he had had the idea they wanted to check him for a bomb he'd stopped, smiled at them and very slowly opened his jacket.

Two (groups of) persons acting with no knowledge what was in the others mind(s). Acting wrongly and quickly based on false hypotheses.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:44 PM

greg stephens, according to the police, he was a terrorist suspect the moment he left his doorstep. Remember the stuff about the bulky jacket? It would seem like the logical time to check him out.

Why keep waiting to see what he would do? "Wow!he didn't explode at the bus stop. Great!", "Phew! He didn't blow up on the bus! That's nice." Great senario if you expect your security system to be run by drama queens. Lousy way of preventing a serious incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM

... and before y'all start going on about fascism and the like...., remember that we, the Nationalists in the North of Ireland, had the ignominious distinction of battling the first excrement pile of what was to later become Neo-Nazism, in the form of The Tartan Gangs.

We now have Neo-Nazism in the extreme right-wing of Unionism.
And we're battling against that at present.

Make no mistake here, folks.

I would doubt that any Nationalist in the North would gloat over what you are about to go through, because we've been through it ourselves... and are still going through it, albeit in slightly different circumstances.

However, if you wish to keep on perpetuating the myth, by calling people 'Fenian Scum', and the like, then go ahead...

I, for my part (and possibly the rest of the lads), will remind you without standing on too much ceremony where the nub of your problem lies.

You know it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:26 PM

It'd be very easy to have a Dead Man's Switch which could be activated at will by the bomber when they found themselves in a situation where they felt at risk of being captured, for example passing through a checkpoint. Anyone with the skill to make a reliable and effective bomnb would be able to produce something like that. (Aren't we all familiar with theeh scene in theeh films where the villain or the hero removes the pin from a hand grenade, and holds the firing mechanism open, as a way of deterring captors from shooting and so setting of an explosion that will kill them?)

My point is, the assumption that killing a bomber is a certain way of stopping them letting-off their bomb is a very suspect one. When former head of the London Metropolitan Police Force Lord Stevens wrote this week "There is only one sure way to stop a suicide determined to fulfil his mission: destroy his brain instantly, utterly", he was making that assumption, and it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Perhaps killing a captured bomber might improves the odds, at least until the bombers wise up to the tactic - but there's nothing "sure" about it. For all we know they're already using such devices.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:20 PM

Any of you read 'Family & Class...'?

.. and it's all just a little case of history repeating...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 07:12 PM

I'll tell you this, Guests and others, though...

The North of Ireland has roughly 1 1/2 million people living there.
Yeah?

How many in England?

How difficult was it for the cops and Brits to keep a handle on things in the North?

How many people in England again?

How clever are you?

You're troubles are only beginning, pal.

And you want to talk about us?

Is that a serious case of head-up-the-arsery, or wha?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:55 PM

... got sick of talking about your own troubles, so you feel live reliving the old days?

Start a thread, and let's get to it, then....

Now.... write 100 lines of:

I shall not live with my head up my arse

You're a fucking joke, mate

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:51 PM

How did he do that, guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:45 PM

Don't waste your time with him. He showed what a thick gob shite he was yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

Tír Eoghain fuck off and die you murdering fenian scum

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:20 PM

It would certainly be that last thing you will ever expect, again

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

Several posters have mentioned that the shoot to kill policy is no good if the individual with the bomb has a "dead man's switch", and that terrorist organizations will adopt that, if they haven't already.   Think about that for a moment.

A dead man's switch has to be held open. That means that the carrier has to maintain a constant muscle tension to hold the switch. If I were a terrorist leader/planner I'd be very shy of that approach, because of the possibility--nay, the likelihood--of the operative's stumbling, or having a sneezing fit, or being bumped in a crowd, maybe just startled, his switch hand getting tired and just wanting to shift his grip, or even just his attention wandering. and then what do we get? We get an impressive explosion in the wrong place, before the operative gets to the target. Then we've lost an operative, we've lost our bomb, we've lost surprise.

I really don't expect to find them using a dead man's switch.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

not just the foot,they had the man down, almost under control.
it was more like shooting fish in a barrel.or a steer in the slaughter house.next are they gone shoot a deaf man because he does nt stop when they yell halt.it's happend before.[dif cir still just as bad]

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:07 PM

Greg - I think this incident rates right up there with the "worst".

It isn't wrong for people to think, especially at this time in our history. Everything is changing but this particular incident not only killed an innocent it has also severely undermined the confidence of the public, including Muslims who were being asked to co-operate.

Why is it that co-operation is a one-way street? Co-operation requires the participation of all those involved. Why would anyone co-operate with a bungling police force? Thats the underlying tragedy of this incident.

To beat terrorism, their has to be an atmosphere of trust, respect and co-operation. The London police just shot themselves in the foot and that puts everyone at risk. Al-Qaeda must be jumping for joy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

Some people just love to think the worst, dont they, as long as it supports their political case. Maybe the people who let him on the bus didnt think he had any explosives. Maybe the policeman who shot him thought he had. Perfectly feasible, yes? Presumably it wasnt the same policeman.I'm not saying that is the case, but it seems as likely as any other explanation. And considerably more likely than other theories expressed in this and other threads, such as the suggestion that the police are out to execute people for being black(or possibly, in this case, a bit brown). If that was really the case, it's surprising they've only found one so far, given that London is a rather cosmopolitan city.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:53 PM

,,, Operation Kratos, explained (as much as they can, dianavan)

I agree Kevin, a cracker book.

Not entirely irelevant

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:52 PM

A quick google, and you're there....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

lest we now know why the marksmanship was so good[better than the american police generally]they had him caught and was holding him down so the gun could be stuck in his ear[symbolism]lest here in the states they normally stop shooting when the suspect is on the ground.   but i guess i can understand not shooting untill you had him at blank range[might hit explosives if any otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

What exactly is Operation Kratos? Shouldn't the public be informed of this new policy. I know if I were visiting London I would want to know about it since I was under the impression that the police over there did not carry guns.

I hear its "shoot to kill" but others say, no, you must first use reasonable restraint. Others say the orders must come from above.

Does anybody know what Operation Kratos entails?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,02:46 PM
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM

"both are public transit in the UK, I believe and your point is"

The one that you failed to make until later...

Why wait til he went underground with it?

Chill out, for fuck's sake, Susan

You're acting like one of those cops...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

Great stuff Peter and good to see you back.
We're still struggling on against the powers of darkness...Shakibus and the orcs.
Look forward to your views on the terrorist situation...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:22 PM

Peter, a well reasoned (as usual) post. I remember another Olympics in which a bunch of athletes guilty of nothing more than being from Israel were taken captive and butchered. Seems wrecking the Olympic spirit is not the exclusive domain of the US and the west.

I am in agreement with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians. I agree that Iraq was a horrible blunder and that it was not launched for legitimate reasons. I even understand the frustration of outgunned fighters using desperate measures.

What I am in disagreement with here is the same round of folks that never miss an opportunity to complain. I am feeling that it isn't about legitimacy, but rather to be negative about the West no matter the circumstance. One cannot rationally explain what happened here, because in these situations one doesn't have time to rationalize. One must react. And damned if you do and damned if you don't.

This was a horrible tragedy for all parties, especially the young man and his family. Some folks here need to drop the phoney intellect arguments and just admit that they love these types of things because it gives them ammo in there obsessive need to criticize.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

Having read all these posts, perhaps the most chilling is Kendall's contribution: "Damndest case of suicide..." or words to that effect. If people who have previously presented themselves as reasonably intelligent can be reduced to this gloating mentality, then god help us.

I don't always see eye to eye with Big Mick, and not entirely in the case of his posts in this thread either, but I can see where he's coming from. Part of the problem about discussing a catastrophe like this death is is that there has long been a gulf between the US and th UK about how these matters are viewed. Many in the UK, including me, are horrified to see that gap narrowing as the UK moves a step nearer the adoption of US values, where police sootings have long been a fact of life and death.

Peace facetiously said in response to someone "let me know if it works" referring to the UK policy of an unarmed police force. Well the fact is that it did work, for many gnerations. Even in the present situation, in which the tabloids among others are doing their best to whip up hysteria, most police are unarmed. But those days are numbered. They are numbered because of a sea-cahnge in the values of western governments. Nowadays our leaders brasenly brush off rebukes from Amnesty, Human Rights Watch etc, whereas any adverse report from such organisations would have caused the deepest shame earlier within my own lifetime.

Exactly 25 years ago, the US did its best to wreck the Olympic spirit, by boycotting the Moscow Olympics. Why? Because the USSR had invaded Afghanistan! Now the world superpower believes it can invade Afghanistan or anywhere else with impunity. Fawning regimes like Britian's, Egypt's, and the ertwhile government in Spain, think they can trot along lending their support from the rear, again with impunity. They can't.

The result is a world in which the once dinstinguished commentator Brian Walden says that no measure that would be too much if it would prevent more deaths from suicide bombing. In other words a world in which buses stop only at designated points where scanning equipment can be available, and in which 30-minute check-in times are imposed on people wanting to travel by Tube.

Walden and his ilk would deprive us of every liberty we ever had if we could only retain our freedom to slaughter innocent civilians in "far away countries of which we know nothing."

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

The actual killing was the culmination of an operation that was pretty evidently botched. It has all the marks of a panic attempt to rectify something that had gone badly wrong.

A man who is believed to be a suicide bomber is allowed to get on a bus and travel through crowded streets for several miles. When he is at the entrance of a tube station he is alerted to the fact that he is being followed, in such a way that he is able to get down to the platform and on to a train full of people. He is puyrsued and forced to teh griound so that he is immobilised and then shot eight times.

The actual shooting isn't by any means the only question, or even the cetral one. The real question is, how could it possibly happen that these officers found themselves in a crowded tube train with someone they were convinced was about to explode a bomb, so that it must have seemed there was no alternative but to kill him? How could this happen in the light of the fact that a sizeable team of experienced and trained professionals had been in his presence ever since he had left his home quite a few miles away?

There appears to be a level of professional incompetence here which is frightening. To adapt the words of the Duke of Wellington referring to his army "I don't know if they frighten the enemy, but By God they frighten me..."
............................

But I don't know where people get the idea that killing a bomber is a reliable way of stopping the bomb exploding. It'd be the easiest thing in the world to rig a device so that the very act of killing the bomber would set the bomb off. You wouldn't need anything more complicated than something like a clothes peg held in the hand, wired up to a detonator in a Dead Man's Switch arrangement. If they haven't done that already I can't imagine it'll be long before they do. They may be mad, but they aren't stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:52 PM

Guess it depends from where the standpoint of your bitch lies as to whether or not one is entitled to post one's opinion, eh? Without being transparent, that is.

If my child had been on the bus he boarded, your goddam right I'd be there with the criticism! How the f#ck did he get even as far as boarding a bus if the police were tracking his movements? What is so difficult to comprehend about that?

Susan, also feeling very grumpy.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:36 PM

Dianavan, I really have to applaud the people of Iraq who are suffering this terrible ordeal daily, please don`t fall into the trap of believing that the English are the only people in the world who can show courage in the face of terror.
The citizens of Iraq have been killed by terror bombings from the air, they have been killed in countless thousands, why count as the US says they are only Arabs, let us all have a minutes silence at the week-end for the Iraqi innocents who have been bombed into oblivion, some chance of that happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

First to the mechanics of a head shot. When one is taking out someone with a shot to the head, and they are armed, it is very important that the links to the spinal column are severed. This is why the preferred shot is behind the ear. When one doesn't have perfect conditions for this shot, then a number are placed. This is important to eliminate the involuntary twitch that could set off an explosive, or pull the trigger on a gun.

Second, it was a tragedy. Yes there should and will be an inquest. An error appears to have been made. Very sad, and condolences to the family. I am quite sure the police officer will have much to deal with.

But I ask again. To those that are so quick to judge, what if he had the explosives and your child was killed? I am quite sure you would be right there with criticism.

Those here that just like to bitch and hear themselves do it are transparent as hell.

Mick, feeling a bit grumpy today.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

Guest, why don't you just come right out and say, you wish the police would shoot all those funny foreign men that come to your little island and get it back on the anglo/saxon track again?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 03:59 PM

Guest...Mr Jack Straw has just stated that to his knowledge the murdered man was, "here lawfully"