BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:48 PM

Alot of us condemn the killings on both sides. The UK police force has acted murderously underhand in the past, does it disturb you that they don't seem to be doing so now?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:38 PM

You didn't ask for these changes ? Those who elected Tony Blair into office AGAIN and ignored the thousands that took to the streets over his involvement in the Iraq war cannot say they did not believe there wouldn't be a pay day for it. The thousands of Iraqis killed in their home didn't ask for it either. Sadly you will have to learn to live with it. I condem the killings on BOTH sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Billy Suggers
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 12:13 PM

Ummm 'scuse me but:

1. None of you know the facts (neither do I)

2. The Apologists for the police just strengthen the case of TBERI* - coz they'll say that this just shows how fascist we are

3. The Apologists for The Bloody Extremist R****d Idiots just strengthen their case as they'll use any support they can find.

depressing, that, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

The police have acknowledged it was a mistake. Is that not clear enough for you? Are you upset that they aren't trying to cover this up? Instead they are trying to learn from it. I realise that doesn't fit into some peoples mindsets, but get used to changing times and changing attitudes. We didn't ask for these changes, we are learning to live with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM

Ain't that the truth, Kevin

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:33 AM

I can in fact understand how he could have been shot, once he had been identified as being a bomber trying to detonate a bomb. What puzzles me us how a surveillance operation could have allowed someone identified as a potential bomber into an underground station.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

Swarthy? Brown? Some Brazilians are, but he seems to be pretty light complected to me. CNN Story

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Well still of the belief this poor guy from Brazil had any involvement ? Police must have been trainned in the North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

Dianavan commented:

I hope nobody uses this incident to blame him for being an illegal immigrant but I'm sure they will.

That's a very muddy statement, Dianavan.

This incident is not necessary, nor even applicable, to blame him for being an illegal immigrant. That status creates its own blame. His being killed doesn't create or increase blame for his status.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM

Well said Mick. Still waiting for ake and dianavan to show where they got their 'facts' from. Or are they too busy stirring the pot to post.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:11 AM

While some people just love stirring up trouble, and escalating things, let's be calm. I for one fully understand how a tragic error like this can happen, and have nothing but sympathy for those involved: the family of this young chap, and equally well the policeman who fired these shots, I am sure with the best of intentions of saving his fellow citizens from a potential disaster.
   It is a tragedy, and can only be blamed on the climate of fear set up by these dreadful bombings. Which were the responsibilty if those who pressed the buttones.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 10:04 AM

I have great respect for the process of honest debate of issues. Such discourse, when carried out as an honest quest between honorable folks, usually yields understanding and progress.

Then there are those that always have something to say based on some narrowly defined ulterior motive. They quack to hear themselves sound like ducks.

This killing was a tragic episode. But if one puts themselves in the position of having to make a split second decision ....... never mind. If you haven't been in this situation you have no way to understand. Perhaps it takes one of your kin dying at the hands of a bomber to understand.

While I still believe that Iraq was a mistake and an ongoing travesty, I will not judge those that are trying to save innocent lives.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:38 AM

Yes it is. Apparently he is witholding making any further decisions until he has ok'd them with lepus, ake and diananvan.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:08 AM

That's a cracker email address

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:54 AM

[e-mail]

Anyone who thinks they have an opinion worth listening to could email Ken at the above address. I have just sent him my thanks and support. But he will be just as open to listen to constructive criticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,8.06
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:36 AM

Yes I do know. The blame is at their door.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:28 AM

"Some people are so shallow they will use any tragedy to further their own twisted meanderings."

You can read that as being applicable to Bush & Blair too, you know

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:06 AM

No one is disputing chemical warfare is a possibility, it's the shite he posted about 'muslim areas being shot up' that takes all credibility from his posting.

Some people are so shallow they will use any tragedy to further their own twisted meanderings.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:02 AM

... The winds of Black Death....

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM

If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas and continue with our policy in Iraq, the next bomb could be silent and kill thousands and still we would be no nearer to defeating terrorism.

diananvan must read the same papers as akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:59 AM

People have been jumping to conclusions since the man 'removed himself from the genepool'

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:52 AM

Dianavan: was this lad really an illegal immigrant who didnt speak English? Was this a rumour you heard, and if so where? People seem so quick to jump to conclusions in these very tense and scary times, I think you, or any of us, should quote sources for your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:51 AM

London mayor Ken Livingstone said: "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."


Well said Ken. He could so easily have used this as a police bashing exercise. Our elected representative echoes our thoughts. The mindless rubbish being spouted by people who have never set foot in the City is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:35 AM

Which means it can only improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:20 AM

Well, so far its a 100% failure rate

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:10 AM

Good point about having someone at the station. It is the nearest tube to the flats. If the police are vilified over this will they react at all next time, when the threat is real? Practise unfortunately might make perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:02 AM

"Mr Menezes' cousin Mr Pereira said the 27-year-old was from the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, and had lived in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English." (From the BBC news site.)

The most likely explanation for him running is that he thought he was being chased by some bunch of racists. How are you supposed to tell plain clothes police from BNP vigilantes if your skin is brown?

True enough, the poor man was another victim of the bombers - but also of what appears to have been a seriously botched operation. Assuming they thought he was a bomber, there should have been someone in front of him at the station entrance when he was challenged, to stop him entering and getting access to the trains. From that point on it sounds like a desperate attempt to rectify a terrible mistake, which resulted in another terrible mistake, this time involving the death of an innocent man.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM

According to his friends dianavan he spoke good english. But of course you know better. Don't your conspiracy theories ever take a day off?

Of course it was a tragic accident. And regardless of the enormity of the accident, we will learn from it. I hope the police involved are treated well. I think they will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:41 AM

I would like to offer a few points that occur to me when I hear of this kind of tragic occurence.

This young man is a victim of something much broader in scope than any issue of race, philosophy, or religion.

His death is the direct result of a fundamental flaw in the way that we think about our fellow human beings. We perceive difference where no difference exists. What I mean by this is that we are all of one race, the human race.

We are all, quite literally, in one boat, and until we stop separating the accommodation on that boat into first, second, and third classes, we will never be free of the divisive issues that lead to resentment, and conflict.

We seem to have great difficulty in accepting that there are many ways to live this one life we are given, and that all of those ways are equally valid for those who choose them.

Only when we learn to respect those who follow a different path, and encourage and help them to the best of our ability, will we conquer resentment, and enjoy peace.

My heart goes out to this young man, and his family and friends. He had the misfortune to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and, through fear, he reacted in the wrong way. Did he deserve to die? Emphatically NO!

At the same time, I cannot condemn the police officers involved, who, rightly or wrongly, reacted to an extraordinary situation, by making a decision. The fact that there was no bomb does not of itself render that decision criminal. Their brief for use of deadly force is based on their reasonable belief in an imminent threat to their lives, or the lives of members of the public. IMHO their actions were entirely justifiable on that basis.

It is also to their credit, that there was no attempt to cover up the mistake. How many of the world's police forces, do you think, would have immediately published the facts, with an apology?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Guest, Soldier Boy.
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:36 AM

Why are most people surprised when the police shoot an innocent person, this unfortunate Brazilian man going to his work and confronted by a gang of hoods did what most people would have done, ran for his life.

Remember the man was reported to the London police as an Irishman carrying a gun, he was shot dead, turned out he was a Scot, carrying a chair-leg.

There was many more in England, trigger happy bastards abound in all police forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 10:36 PM

This very tragic incident was not the result of some 'trigger happy policey' but the rusult of some very nervous if not outright scared people who have been giving their their most in trying to protect the public. Don't forget these people have been extremely busy, working beyond 'the limit' for the last 2 weeks. I'm certainly not condoning this shooting, it disturbs me immensly. I'm certainly not going to condemn the police in their actions. I am sickened by this killing, I am also sickened of the murder of all other innocent victims of the recent terrorist bombings.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

If the police were watching a whole block of flats, why did they pick this bloke to follow?

Might have to wait until the coroner asks that question to get an answer, and the police will have an interesting time developing an answer. From what I understand of London demographics these days, there are any number of people who could fit this bloke's general description living around that area. Are they all at risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:37 PM

He was an illegal immigrant that had been in England for three years. An electrician from Brazil that did not speak English. He was probably terrified of being deported.

I don't think he deserved to die.

I'm glad the police are being honest.

I hope nobody uses this incident to blame him for being an illegal immigrant but I'm sure they will.

I really feel for the people of London. Its bad enough to be victimized by terrorist but equally as bad to fear that you may be shot by mistake. I hope the good people of London continue to stick together and support each other through these trying times.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:25 PM

It's a tragedy engendered by the fact that fallible human beings are being asked to protect a capital city when faced with people willing to kill themselves and anyone near them at anytime in any place. This is a new circumstance where all the entrenched beliefs expressed above from both sides need to be set aside and thought about very seriously in the light of what has happened.None of us have faced this situation before and this poor man is as much a victim of the suicide bombers as anyone else they have killed. We are not in a right or wrong situation here, we are in a new situation and new thoughts and approaches are needed.
The freedoms and rights we have always taken for granted are under threat, but it is too easy to say that the state is threatening us, when the state is doing it's best to protect us from what is, basically, an undefendable attack.
The whole thing is a tragedy of epeic proportions and will be for far longer than any of us can conceive. We must learn to live with mistakes and learn from them, but in the end always remember that the people responsible for this mess are religious fanatics who wish to kill indiscriminately.
Don't throw the first stone without serious thought. We're going to have to deal with this for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:00 PM

Now be a good boy and quit chewing that stalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:55 PM

GUEST @ 07:04 PM: Touché!

*snort*

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:21 PM

You can include every other nationality in there as well

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:19 PM

Innocent Iraqis die, innocent Britons die, innocent Brazilians die. That's what happens in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:16 PM

"I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection."

Well, they protected you from the guy who had no bomb, but they weren't much help against the guys that had bombs.

I am amazed at the fearful and subservient attitude i see in so meany posts here.

Regardless of the ultimate guilt or innocence of the dead man, dressing and/or acting unusual shouldn't be a capital offense. And the police shouldn't be allowed to determine and execcute the death sentence. Think of what you're saying: you people are asking for everone to dress and act alike under penalty of summary execution by the Authorities. I never thought that Americans or Britons would actually ask for a police state.

Do you really think that Big Brother loves you and has your interests at heart?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:04 PM

Lepus have you met david hannam?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

Ah, a Brazilian! If I'd been raised in Brazil, I probably wouldn't stop for a bunch of plainclothes goons, either...

And GUEST @ 05:40 PM, you poor, poor, thing! I bet you're just a nervous wreck, worrying about the ten million-to-one chance that your kids might be blown up on a field trip. (Never mind that they probably have a better chance of being mauled by wild dogs...) And all those inconveniences at the station! What a drag! Boo fucking hoo. Quit moaning and get over it. Your life is easy compared to that of, say, most Brazilians. You should feel fortunate that you're allowed to draw breath at all.

And, sorry, stupid, but you get to have a Muslim minority for your Empire, and you get to have a pissed off Muslim minority for the actions of your government. And don't give me that "but I didn't vote for them" bullshit. You live in a nation of people who did, and, like me and millions of others, didn't do enough to stop them. Do more next time, and worry less.

And by the way, being pumped full of bullets is slightly more serious than a "sharp kick up the rear end." This man was executed, by the police, for being fucking swarthy. In London. In 2005. This makes you feel safe? You said "I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection." Offer you protection. Presumably, you're white, then. Because anyone darker than, say, taupe, seems to be fair game now. But, hey, at least you can sleep soundly... right?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM

They could kill a few birds with the one stone there, McGrath...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:50 PM

These are supposed to be highly trained professionals, not ordinary bobbies who've been handed guns for the first time, who might be expected to be hyped up and panicky.

So now it isn't just the bombers we have to be frightened of, it's the police. And with the weather set to break tonight everyone is liable to be wearing coats, which puts them at risk. And of course Muslims come in all colours, so if they're looking out for anyone who looks like they could be a Muslim, that's all of us. But more especially those of us with brown skins. And beards, of course, so male folkies should be particularly cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:49 PM

Apparently his family doesn't think he deserves the label that Rummed and Coked spat on to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM

With the very public way this was done I do not believe there will be a cover up, everything will have to come out in the open. The police will have to answer questions and these police officers will
now face an enquiry and most likely subsequent punishment.

Most likely there will be silence on the part of the police for a few days whilst their investigation team gets working.

There are just too many witnesses to allow this to be covered up.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

OK to that, Shakey. Let us know if it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:40 PM

"Well Peace you're a very lucky person to be living where you do, it doesn't really get any better, but as far as guns are concerned some of us believe that providing the police with them will only encourage more criminals to carry them also."

Sorry, that was me again forgetting to use my name (I know it irks some of you out there and I wouldn't want that)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:37 PM

Well Peace you're a very lucky person to be living where you do, it doesn't really get any better, but as far as guns are concerned some of us believe that providing the police with them will only encourage more criminals to carry them also.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:31 PM

As I understand the quotes or paraphrases I've read from the high police official, this individual was definitely not connected with the bombing attempt of yesterday (or was it the day before?)

Please note that he did not say "He was not connected with the previous, sucessful four bombings." Nor did he say that he was not a terrorist.

We just flat-out don't know enough of the underlying facts to make judgments about this, tempting as it is for some here (I really don't have to name names) to wax indignant and throw words like "murder" and "in cold blood" around.

I will acknowledge someone's (or maybe a series of someones') comment above that we may never know. That's a possibility. But for now, all we have grounds for is a concerned (and perhaps suspicious) heightening of attention.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

I live in Canada's west. I want the cops here to have guns. It's the criminals I wish didn't have the guns.