B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts

Subject: f
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:55 AM

O. K., for a start, the Scouts were not exactly firing on all cylinders when they plonked their dining room tent underneath power lines and killed off several leaders; but then there was this heat stroke thing as 40,000 of the little dears waited in an arena for George W. to address them.   And he never showed!! It turns out that the Scouts have to go through lengthy security checks (why not just ask them to repeat the Scout oath?), and then stand around waiting for a guy who doesn't show up because of the threat of thunderstorms.

I smell conspiracy here.

I was a Boy Scout once, and attended these jamborees. What was I thinking? I have many stories of stupid Scout leaders, but I guess when they stopped hiring gay leaders, they lost the IQ fight permanently.

yours,

Peter T. (attained one merit badge on my way to being a Star scout)

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM

The Sunday papers (Sunday Express U.K.) make the point that the kit list for this year's Scout & Guide Jamboree includes condoms.

I think Tom Lehrer said it all:
"Be prepared, that's the Boy Scouts marching song..."

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

I saw Lyndon Johnson speak at the 1964 Jamboree in Valley Forge. I was 14 and I don't remember a single thing he said. I do recall the heat. I remember the fire works as the best in my life. I remember I had a great time and I learned how to make a Steel Band from Roger Calthorpe, a Scout from Trinidad. I remember learning how to do proper First Aid from some Navy guys who were probably SEALs. I also recall clearly a trip to the Philly Shipyards
and a walk along the Trail.
   My Scouting experience was one of camping, woodcraft, public service, and constant education. My Scout leaders were mostly all great Men and Women with a few clinkers along the way. But an experience I'd never trade and would gladly repeat.
   Experiencing High Falls on clear night with the Persieds over head is something that can't be equalled and you never forget it.

Don Meixner
Life Scout
Order of the Arrow
God and Country

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:25 AM

During my time in Boy Scouts, I was ambitious.

I achieved the rank of Tenderfoot!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:48 AM

I never made it to the Boy Scouts, just Cub Scouts. I don't remember if I ever made Lion, think I just made it to Bear. (Back then the Cub Scouts had Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, and Lion.) But I do remember that one day my Dad was looking through my Bear handbook (he had just volunteered to be the Cubmaster of my pack), and said, "Hey, you've done a lot of these things." We went through the book and checked off everything that I'd done, and I wound up with five arrow points--one gold and four silver--cascading down from my Bear badge nearly to my pants.

I'm not sure if "attacks" is the right word in the title of this thread. Maybe "blows off"? No, that doesn't sound right...

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: sapper82
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:49 AM

Nigel, my daughter is at Peak 2005 and her kit list didn't include condoms.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:52 AM

I am all for characterizing Bush as a fool and an incompetent, but I don't know any way to attack someone by not showing up! :D


A

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:56 AM

There was no Boy Scout troop in my small home town in Maine. There were chickens, cows, an older brother, occasional cousins, and other livestock but no Scouts. Lord knows how I ever survived or learned any morals at all. I did have an old Scout book that was part of my father's collection from his years as a Scout in NYC and I certainly read it from cover to cover. I thought the unifroms were really neat and lusted for one.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 12:53 PM

All told, I guess I was an adult and youth member of the Boy Scouts for 25 to 30 years. When I was a kid, we went on hikes or camping - with or without leaders - and we almost always had a great time. I never did buy into snow camping, though. I got to the rank of Life Scout, two merit badges short of Eagle. I was once told that "Live Scout" meant regretting for the rest of your life that you didn't quite make Eagle.

As an adult, I had occasional stints as an Assistant Scoutmaster, and ten years as Cubmaster, Day Camp staff member, and district song leader. Most of the time, it was just a lot of fun - but there were a number of people with "agendas" who would occasionally get in my way of having fun as an adult leader. For most Boy Scout leaders, patriotism and the Republican Party seemed to be synonymous, so many Scout patriotic activities made me nervous.

In the western U.S., there were times when the reqired religious belief often seemed to be equivalent to being Mormon, although the rest of us were tolerated as long as we kept our mouths shut. Usually, religion wasn't an issue in Scouts, and I wish the national headquarters wouldn't make it an issue. I knew many "functional atheists" who made wonderful contributions to Scouting - but they couldn't say publicly that they didn't believe in God.

The homosexual thing was in many ways a non-issue for Scouts. Youth membership ends at age 18, and most boys aren't completely sure of their sexual orientation until sometime after that. But there were occasions when the national office would refuse to grant Eagle Scout rank to a kid who claimed to be homosexual, and that was a shame.

As time went on, the national headquarters seemed to be digging its feet in on the religion and homosexual issues, and on its identification with the Mormons and the Republicans. Eventually, I got tired of that, and it's one of the reasons I drifted away from Scouts.

But all in all, I had a wonderful experience in Scouting, and all those issues were mostly far away in the National Office in Irving, Texas (to my mint, the first mistake was moving the National Office from New Jersey to Texas).

The Girl Scouts always seemed to be a far more tolerant organization. I wonder how the Boy Scouts went astray.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:02 PM

"The Girl Scouts always seemed to be a far more tolerant organization. I wonder how the Boy Scouts went astray."

The GS got cookies.

I was in cubs and scouts also. Learned knots there--knots I use today for emergency work. The organization instilled a sense of pride in young kids. They didn't care what kind of homes we came from or what the incomes of our caregivers were. They kept a few of us off the streets and likely (in my case anyway) out of jail. The leaders I had were good men, and they helped to provide a foundation for what I'll loosely call 'sense of duty'. I am beholden to them for that.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:13 PM

I was member, for 2 years or so, of Troop 448 in Wichita, Kans.."Bill Coulson's Eagle Mill"...if you weren't seriously heading for Eagle, Mr. Coulson kinda looked down on you. And the religious bit soon became obvious...we were singing one night before the full meeting..."I Ain't Gonna Grieve My Lord No More" (Oh, you can't get to Heaven in...etc.) and someone did the verse, "If I get to Heaven before you do, I'll plug that hole, and to hell with you"...and Coulson came storming out of his office telling us that vesre was NOT appropriate, "I don't want boys in MY troop sitting around singing about Hell!"

I gradually just dropped out as the pressure to get *MORE* merit badges increased and lectures on morality, coupled with Sat. morning newspaper drives to make money demaned I surrender more of my life to scouting than suited me...

it was interesting...but...

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: kendall
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM

We lived so far back in the woods we had to be "Real" scouts to find the village.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 03:11 PM

This is my 65th year in scouting.,silver beaver, woodbadge,.on staff 1985 Jambo. My wife 34 years,silver beaver. Daughter Ast. Scoutmaster, Grand Daughter Former Girl Scout now in ventures,[formally explores] G son tenderfoot We are a scouting family

Sure there are some problems, and and some who joined so it could look good on their record for work, but in general the adults are a bunch of hard working folks.

These kids learn skills that last all their lifes. Life saving, swimming, first aid..etc. The merrit badges are designed to give them oppertunity to learn about jobs etc. they can enter in adult life. Art. Writing, chemistry, Life saving, plumbing, soil and water conservation Just to name a few.

Before you knock it just Name me one other organization that does all this.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

FFA?

4H?

Not arguin' - but there are options.

John

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:45 PM

I used to be a Scout leader 15 years in the UK
I also helped run the BAR in the peak 200 camp. I provided them (adults over the age of 18, or 21 for the canadians) with beer, my wife provided them with coffee......and condoms, at the request of the camp organisers.
If I remember rightly that time it was the Guides turn!

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:59 PM

Junior Forest Wardens is another good group.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Deckman
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:13 PM

I have to share a true story about my youngest son. When he was about 8, it came to his attention that "they" were starting a cub scout troop in our neighborhood. An informational meeting was held one evening at the Church, just down the street from us. My son's mother and father dutifully walked with him to the basement of the Church. At the beginning of the meeting, the preacher rose, asked us all to stand, and started the meeting with a prayer.

My son's father (that's me) and his mother dutifully bowed their heads with everyone else. I can still see, and hear, young son Chris ask in a very loud voice "WHY'S EVERYONE LOOKING AT THE FLOOR?"

True story. To compound the problem, his mother and I started laughing and we just couldn't stop! We left the meeting early.

CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:40 PM

I think the girl scouts did have more fun, certainly I always wanted to go where they were for nascent puberty reasons, and I had an "in", cause my mother ran a Girl Scout troop.   I always found American Boy Scouts very militaristic; having earlier been part of British and Canadian scout packs, where things were much more Jungle Books.   But of course when one reads about Baden-Powell and the "scout" metaphor, one can see that even the Brit version was pseudo-military (hybridized with the nature stuff of Grey Owl and others).

I met Harry Truman as a scout -- we were parade marshalls for him once. It was a cold, cold day, and I was wearing bright green earmuffs, and he stopped and chatted to me about what great earmuffs I had. I had enough presence of mind to offer them to him, and he laughed, and shook my hand, and said that it was one of evils of being an ex-president that he had to be dignified even if his ears fell off. I was naturally always big on Harry Truman after that. I always regretted not sending in that remark when all those books of Truman quotes were being generated.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Peter T.
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:50 PM

Stop Press, I see that George W. finally made it to the Jamboree. It is a bit disconcerting to hear that Andrew Card, Vice President Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld were all scouts (see remark at the outset about IQ).

But perhaps he decided to show up in order to drum up recruits for the Iraq War some years down the road given the way it is going (unless he is considering dramatically lowering the recruitment age requirement the way it has just been raised at the other end of the age cohort.)

"Scouts!! When Alexander the Great was your age he was wandering around in the Middle East!!! We are wandering around in the Middle East!!! So I was thinking......."

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:53 PM

I was a Scout fir 'bout a month... Din't even have a uniform yet when we went on the troop's first campin' trip... The Scout leaders helped us pitch tents and all that Scout stuff... Then later that night it rained and I discovered that the openin' to the tent the Scout leader set up fir me was on the uphill side and lots of water came into my tent which weren't no fun at all since everything in the tent got soaked.... Then I got caught smokin' a cigarette by one of them tent geniouses and got yelled at....

That was the end of my Boy Scoutin' experience....

Hey, Cub Scouts was more fun and my mom was a den mother... Haas she been on that campin' trip she woulda been smart nuff not to pitch a tent so that it became a water hazzard...

Yeah, whomever said that the Scouts would do better with a few gays is right on target... The redneck Scout leaders ain't got a lick of common sense...

Ignore that last comment seein' as there is one Catter who thinks I am a bigot... Yeah, maybe I just don't like stupid Scout leaders... If that makes me a bigot then so be it...

The End.

Tenderfoot Bobert

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Cluin
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 09:33 PM

In the Brownies
by Billy Connolly
(Tune: In the Navy)

Young man,
Are ye tired o' the Scouts?
(I said) Young man,
Do ye wanna get out?
(I said) Young man,
We won't knock you about

It'll be ok-ay, why wor-ry?

Young man,
You'll be one o' the gang
(I said) Young man,
Things'll go with a bang
(I said) Young man,
You will soon get the hang

Of it; it's ok-ay, why wor-ry?

Young man,
You will soon get the knack
(I said) Young man,
You'll be copping your whack
(I said) Young man,
We will bend over backwards

To make you feel you're want-ed


In the Brownies,
Everybody is your friend!
In the Brownies,
They're all waitin' `round the bend!
In the Brownies,
Sticking with you to the end!
In the Brownies, in the Brownies

In the Brownies,
Everybody goes to camp!
In the Brownies,
There is nothing like a tramp!
In the Brownies,
Grab yer mouth organ and vamp!
In the Brownies, in the Brownies

(off-key harmonica solo)


Young man,
Stop bummin' around
(I said) Young man,
Keep your ear to the ground
(I said) Young man,
Now's the time to go down!

To your lo-cal branch and join us

Young man,
Stop lookin' behind
(I said) Young man,
You know you're goin' to find
(I said) Young man,
You're sure to go blind!

If you don't eat up your car-rots!


In the Brownies,
You won't be tying many knots!
In the Brownies,
You'll enjoy it such a lot!
In the Brownies,
You can give us yer best shot!
In the Brownies, in the Brownies

In the Brownies,
A canteen that never shuts!
In the Brownies,
Never any ifs or buts!
In the Brownies,
Ginger beer and fruity nuts!
In the Brownies, in the Brownies


(clapping bridge)
They want you! They want you!
They want you as a new recruit!
They want you! They want you!
They want you as a new recruit!


In the Brownies,
Everybody is your friend!
In the Brownies,
They're all waiting `round the bend!
In the Brownies,
Sticking with you to the end!
In the Brownies, in the Brownies

In the Brownies,
Everybody goes to camp!
In the Brownies,
There is nothing like a tramp!
In the Brownies,
Grab yer mouth organ and vamp!
In the Brownies, in the Brownies

(off-key harmonica solo out over chorus repeats)

Blow that thing, baby!
Suck it! Suck it!
I like it! I liiiiike it!

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:12 PM

I don't know if Campfire exists anymore, but it was co-ed and offered some really good experiences.

My mom was a Girl Scout leader. All of my sisters and I were in Scouts. Bet went on to be a camp counselor in the summertime. We were also members of Job's Daughters, plus my three sisters were all in 4H, too. Bet got a blue ribbon at the state fair, if I remember rightly, for a suit she made one year. She's a really good seamstress, plus camper. Her son is carrying on the tradition this summer, working with inner-city kids who are camping in the Rockies.

I thought I was really in heaven when bet, my "big" sister, gave ME her official Girl Scout pocket knife!! I still have it and treasure it.

We never had any boys in Brownies!**bg**

kat

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:26 PM

But there were many boys who had brownies in them!!

A

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: RangerSteve
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:33 PM

I went through Cub and Boy Scouts, because my father was big on the Scouts. I learned alot about the outdoors and I don't really regret it, but I learned early on in life that the people in charge are usually the least fit for the job. There were also too many delinquent kids in my troop that were forced into the scouts by their parents, in hopes that they'd get straightened out (it usually didn't work}. They were really good at sucking up the the leaders and being total bastards behind the leaders' backs, and they made my life hell for a few years, but I stuck it out and outlasted them. I could have been a Star Scout, but I never went for the interview, although I had the merit badges. I earned my camping badge over a Christmas vacation, it was cold and rained the whole week. 40 years later I still believe the Scouts owe me a week's vacation.

The 50 mile hike on the Appalachian trail through NY and NJ was really worth it, though. And our yearly stays at camp in the Catskill Mountains was paradise.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:13 AM

I did the entire Cub Scouting thing with all the gold and silver arrows underneath my 3 badges and then did the Webelos and Ordr of the Arrow transition to Boy Scouts. I made it as far as First Class Scout but at age 14, a friend of my Dad's suggested I would enjoy DeMolay. This fellow was a Mason and my Dad was not. The only affiliation of any sort my Dad ever had in his entire life was that he was a railroader.....not much else mattered to him. In any case, his friend sponsored me because he knew I was good at and enjoyed public speaking.

At the time I knew diddly squat about the Masonic history. My best friend was Catholic and he knew even less about that relationship than I did. What I did see was that DeMolay was an entry into some new things and gave me a chance to excel in things I was good at. I have a great memory (or did then!), loved the public speaking angle along with the ritual and ceremony that meetings entailed. We got to wear tuxes and the satin Cape was pretty jazzy!   Better yet, I didn't have to sleep out in the woods wearing smelly, dirty clothes, in a mildewed and damp sleeping bags, with the mosquitoes, snakes, and in a tent with other young men gassed up on beans.

I moved through the ranks quickly and attained the appropriate awards as well. When I was 17 I was the Master Councillor of my chapter. One of the few public ceremonies was something referrerd to as "The Rose Ceremony" and from age 16, I became known for my presentation of this to the point that I was "performing" this 15 minute tribute to Motherhood two to three times a week all over Ohio and even into Pennsylvania, Indiana, and Michigan.

It was later that I learned the history and the prejudice and felt some shame in my own involvement but it did give me a lot of great experiences in speaking that I would use later. I also rationalized away the history and so did my best friend because we remained so....even today.

Pat Patterson
Order of DeMolay
P.M.C./R.D./Chevalier
Dumbass as Well

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST,NH Dave - new browser
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:18 AM

President Truman took the time to speak to the Scouts at the 1950 Jamboree at Valley Forge. He didn't make us wait or worry about thunderstorms or any of that nonsense, even thought he was up to his ears with the start of the war in Korea. I don't remember what he said, nor much about what he looked like as I was one Scout out of 47,000, sitting in that natural amphitheater, but I have to give him full marks for laying aside his problems with the world and spending some time traveling up to Pennsylvania and keeping his commitment to speak to the Scouts at that Jamboree.

    A few years later, I earned the rank of Eagle Scout, and went on to work as an adult volunteer in what seemed to be a completely new form of Scouting.   One of the tenets of Scouting goes something like this, "If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!" and this seems to express my views of the movement. It seems to me that Scouting has taken a turn from its original path, or the path that I walked over 50 years ago, and become so bound up about conservative issues that the ideas of Scouting have been set aside.

Dave

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM

What the hell is Job's Daughters????????? Is this Hells Angels for women?
It sounds like something you want to stay well away from!
Certainly you want to steer clear of any organization called Lot's Daughters!!

(Bible humour, pay no attention).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Willie-O
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:07 AM

I did my time in Boy Scouts of Canada, after the several years of Wolf Cubs. Even as a youngster I had issues with the religiosity of the outfit, but the outdoor stuff was good. Politics was not really on the radar. The quasi-militaristic basis of the organization's roots went right past me. (Scouts were a logical extension of Baden-Powell's experiences training "scouts" to help preserve the Empire in the Boer War).

Nowadays Boy Scouts is just Scouts Canada, cause girls can join. (Or they can join Guides, Brownies etc.) This does not mean that they are universally welcomed. When my daughter was 11 she expressed an interest and a local group was forming--I took her to the signup meeting and the leaders at the door hemmed and hawed and said, "well we're not sure we're even going to form a group". Later on a breakaway conservative branch formed for boys only, calling themselves Baden-Powell Scouts, with a mission to "promote the original values of Lord Baden-Powell" which strikes me as a tad on the archaic side. God, King, Country and Empire, and keeping the blackamoors submissive...it seems peculiar to me how many people would like for it to be 1910 again, especially considering what started four years later. At least we have come far enough that our reaction to huge massed conflicts is generally one of revulsion.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:53 AM

I recall even the cub scouts as being a religious conservative pseudo military organization. Of course we were in the bible belt so it stands to reason it would seem that way.

As a white blonde and blue eyed cub scout I only had one strike against me. But it was a huge strike. I did not attend church and my step father was jewish. This set me up as a kind of infidel of the group. Apparently this was with the express collusion of the other parents in charge.

One day while in the dank unfinished basement of our Den mother's meeting house we were engaged in a toothpick and Elmer's glue project. An American flag hung limply from the rafters by the basement stairs. The stir I caused for not saying under God when we said the pledge of alliegence the week before had not died down. The other boys goaded me saying "you don't love the flag". I said its just cloth, the flag is only a symbol. In lock step they somehow started asking if I would spit on the flag.

"What, why would I do that?" they said we'll pay you a dollar. That seemed like a lot of money to me at the time so I climbed half way up the stairs and gave a dry little ptooey. In unison they yelled for the den mother and ratted me out. The den mother seemed to have a prepared speech which included my being banned from the cub scouts for life.

I left the cubs a dollar richer and a little wiser to the nature of the group.

......... Boy Scouts was out of the question with the same people in charge.


De Molay had the same predjudicial people but after 2 black ball attmepts to ban my joining someone lectured the boys about not black balling someone over religion. On the third vote I was told I was voted in , despite the jewish issue. I had earned the position of sentry which meant I could not go in and attend the meetings but I could stand outside the door.

As sentry old guys would come up and talk. One was a judge and explained how if a boy got in in trouble it was good to to have fellow members in De Molay and seniors the Masons to wipe away harsh punishment.

In time I did more functions and was allowed to view meetings.
I do not memorize speechs well, which is the the event which judges your promotion ( a new rank is earned by completing a new memorized text ) so I drifted out by the time I was a sophmore in High School.

I bid farewell to the Daughters of the Eastern Star, thier green jello with marshmallows, De Molay and the Shriners who prided themselves for their outstanding burn hospitals which we helped fund by putting on plays about the crusades with us De Molay kids as actors with spears and heroic lines.

Years later I was initiated to the Masons and the high weirdness got weirder. But that can be told another time.

Woody Allen once said he would never be a member of an organization that would stoop so low as to let him be a member.
I can empathize with that.






Peter T, I much enjoyed your Truman days recollections.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST,G
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:36 AM

Amos @ Jul 31 05 11:52 A.M.

Although we have somewhat different views politically, your comment is honest and forthright. Thamks. While I lean somewhat Right, I would never try to pin that rap on anyone, Dem or Repub.

Many heartwarming stories, being one of those "went through it all" types (Scouting only). For several to have 'bad memories of a youthful experience' this late in life is disheartening.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:39 AM

catspaw, I remember the Rose ceremony well as it was very sentimental.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:20 PM

I find myself with a rare opportunity to agree with Amos (sort of). Where you, Peter, ever came up with "attack" in your thread title is beyond me. The balance of Amos' contribution is pure Amosism of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:38 PM

Airplanes and thunderstorms don't mix. Don't blame Bush for the actions of the weather demons.

In an attempt to understand my nephew better, I read this:
Why Boys Don't Talk - and Why it Matters -- by Susan Morris Shaffer, Linda Perlman Gordon; Paperback

She talked about how pop culture is putting great pressure on boys today to be superheroes. If you're not a hero, you're nothing. I tie this in to the following:

My friend's nephew breaks his arm scaling a cliff on a rope with the Boy Scouts. What ever happened to the toothpicks and glue?

A Boy Scout loses his life plunging into a rushing river out West. For some stupid reason he was dangling on a rope.

My sister-in-law's troop has to raise money for two years and go 1,000 miles to Philmont and hike for miles. Normal activities aren't enough. Why?

About my nephew, I once asked him why he hadn't even sent me a Christmas card, and he blurted "because I'm so ashamed!"

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:31 PM

leeneia, good points and sad for your nephew!

I KNOW I posted this, this morning, but don't know where it went!

PeterT...Hell's Angels,Lot's Daughters indeed! Job's Daughters is, for girls, the Masonic equivalent to DeMolay for boys, as Spaw noted above. We did a lot of public speaking, too, also lots of service activities. I loved the ritual, music, and ceremony, too. It is based on the Book of Job, obviously, and we were known as "Jobies." My sisters and I were all elected, as different times, to be Honored Queen of our "Bethel." I never got to serve, though, as I became a "soiled dove" my Jr. year in high school by becoming pregnant and was quietly kicked out! I love what I learned in poise, etc. from J'sD, BUT I will always consider my son a fair trade!

kat, (sorry if I repeated this elsewhere, I could swear it was in this thread)

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: emjay
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:11 PM

Since this thread started with a disparaging comment about the scoutmasters who died at the jamboree, and having known a couple of those men, I have read through all of the posts. Lots about the merits or demerits of the scoute. I would suspect they are only as good or as bad as the adults who lead them. They are undoubtedly religious since many of them are sponsored by churches that will want to influence the boys, but there are others that are probably less religous.
When they decided that gays and athiests couldn't be part of their organizations, I decided I wouldn't support them anymore.
But as to the men who died, they did believe in scouting and worked hard in it. At least the one I knew best would not have been careless, had a healthy respect for electricity and had worked around it and with it most of his adult life. In this case he probably came to the assistance of someone who asked for his help and probably expected the professionals who were there knew what they were doing.
He was a very fine person and his death is a tragic loss to family and friends.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:17 PM

Emjay:

My condolences on the loss of your friends. This was a tragic concatenation of errors resulting in catastrophe.

A

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Deckman
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:27 PM

Donuell,

I appreciate your posting. I think that many of these types of "clubs" were very populiar just after WW2. And I also think that several of these "clubs" learned lessons from Hitler's youth groups.

No ... I am not saying that the scouts have any connection with Nazism. No ... I am not saying that these groups have any "sinister" side to them. But what they did/do share is a well grounded knowledge of the power of early "training" of youth movements.

CHEERS , Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:44 PM

From a Letter to the Editor today:

"Somehow when accidental death is involved, we humans commonly think of any questioning of the event as being insensitive and disrespectful. And yet when we don't face the truth of how it happened, we are sowing the seeds of a similar event.

"Like everyone else I grieve the loss of the four Boy Scout leaders and the fact that many youngsters may be emotionally scarred for life. However, we need to recognize the fact that the accident was preventable and totally unnecessary. The men died because of their own ignorance and stupidity. By the time one is 30 years old, how often do you suppose everyone has been warned of hazards from above? And no. I'm not referring to "Acts of God." This was totally preventable.

"To poke at another sore: I feel the same thing holds true in the death of Ben Blackgoat, the 17 year old runner who died on the Perseverance Trail a few years ago. Tragic. However, we would serve our youngsters much better if we would publicize the circumstances. The trail that day was closed because of hazardous conditions. It was the hubris of the young man that led him to flout the caution that was advised. Youngsters today who don't know that may be led to emulate his actions. Another unnecessary tragedy.

Elva Bontrager

Juneau, Alaska

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

The title was a joke -- leaving 40,000 scouts out in the sun, and then faking not showing up because of thunderstorms.   Also, his full name is George W. Bush, and he is the President of the United States.

Jeez.


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: B.S. George W Attacks Boy Scouts
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 11:58 PM

Nigel Parsons 'way back; issued with condoms? The excitement would be intents!