Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)

Subject: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:44 PM

"I will not fund the Army Corp operations in New Orleans for the revamping of the levees." 2003.

President George W. Bush,

paraphrased

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

You can read more about this in my last posting HERE and also in links withi the article for which I gave a link.(Sorry that sounds so clumsy.)

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:36 PM

Some 7,000 soldiers from the Louisiana and Mississippi National Guard are stationed in Iraq. They include more than 3,000 members of the 256th Brigade Combat Team, a unit based in and around New Orleans.
Those soldiers, who represent 40% of Mississippi's and 35% ofLouisiana's regular Guard strength, were forced to watch helplessly from their barracks in Iraq the past few days as the hurricane swept through their neighborhoods and threatened their families.

...Sure, no one could have prevented a powerful hurricane from hitting the Mississippi Delta. But federal and local government leaders all knew that a direct hit on New Orleans from such a storm could mean catastrophe. The Times-Picayune of New Orleans published numerous articles during the past two years warning that the city and federal officials weren't prepared. The newspaper's articles also revealed that Bush was making huge cuts to an Army Corps of Engineers project meant to shore up the levees and pumping stations that protect Delta residents from the waters of Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi.
That project, known as the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, has been in effect since 1995. But spending on it has been reduced substantially since 2000.

"It appears the money has been moved into the President's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price that we pay," the emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, La., told The Times-Picayune in June 2004. "Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished."

Earlier this year, Bush, this President who is spending more than $1 billion a week on this mess in Iraq, proposed less than $11 million in new funding for Louisiana's flood control project. The Army Corps of Engineers wanted at least $62 million. Among the items the White House cut from that flood control budget was money to study how New Orleans could cope with a Category 5 hurricane. Well, the entire country learned how this week. We'll all be paying for that terrible lesson for decades to come.

Originally published on September 1, 2005


from article Sep 1 New York Daily News

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

...Just plain political bad luck that, in June, Bush took his little ax and chopped $71.2 million from the budget of the New Orleans Corps of Engineers, a 44 percent reduction. As was reported in New Orleans CityBusiness at the time, that meant "major hurricane and flood projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now."

Our friends at the Center for American Progress note the Office of Technology Assessment used to produce forward-thinking plans such as "Floods: A National Policy Concern" and "A Framework for Flood Hazards Management." Unfortunately, the office was targeted by Newt Gingrich and the Republican right, and gutted years ago.

The levees of New Orleans, two of which are now broken and flooding the city, were also victims of Iraq war spending. Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, said on June 8, 2004, "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq."

Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by the Chicago Tribune
Why New Orleans is in Deep Water, by Molly Ivins

© 2005 Chicago Tribune

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM

In 2001, FEMA warned that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S. But the Bush dministration cut New Orleans flood control funding by 44 percent to pay for the Iraq war...
A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, in which the Corps of Engineers strengthened and renovated levees and pumping stations. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war.

In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late. The New Orleans Times-Picayune, which before the hurricane published a series on the federal funding problem, and whose presses are now underwater, reported online: "No one can say they didn't see it coming ... Now in the wake of one of the worst storms ever, serious questions are being asked about the lack of preparation."

..In response to this potential crisis, four leading environmental groups conducted a joint expert study, concluding in 2004 that without wetlands protection New Orleans could be devastated by an ordinary, much less a Category 4 or 5, hurricane. .. The chairman of the White House's Council on Environmental Quality dismissed the study as "highly questionable," and boasted, "Everybody loves what we're doing."

.. At the G-8 meeting in Scotland this year, Bush successfully stymied any common action on global warming. Scientists, meanwhile, have continued to accumulate impressive data on the rising temperature of the oceans, which has produced more severe hurricanes.

In February 2004, 60 of the nation's leading scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates, warned in a statement, "Restoring Scientific Integrity in Policymaking": "Successful application of science has played a large part in the policies that have made the United States of America the world's most powerful nation and its citizens increasingly prosperous and healthy ... Indeed, this principle has long been adhered to by presidents and administrations of both parties in forming and implementing policies. The administration of George W. Bush has, however, disregarded this principle ... The distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends must cease." Bush completely ignored this statement.

..On the day the levees burst in New Orleans, Bush delivered a speech in Colorado comparing the Iraq war to World War II and himself to Franklin D. Roosevelt: "And he knew that the best way to bring peace and stability to the region was by bringing freedom to Japan." Bush had boarded his very own "Streetcar Named Desire."

Published on Thursday, September 1, 2005 by Der Spiegel (Germany)
No One Can Say they Didn't See it Coming
by Sidney Blumenthal

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:54 PM

Atta Boy, George!

Another "mission accomplished" for the BuShites to celebrate.

Lets see 'em spin THIS dross into gold for their hero.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:07 PM

I'm sure all those people killed in the hurricane are quite relieved that it wasn't terrorists who killed them.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:09 PM

More on this

>CLICK HERE

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:24 PM

Impeachment? Not likely, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: paddymac
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:37 PM

I understand the ancient judaeo-christian notion of man having dominion over the earth, and its reflections in bold statements to rebuild it bigger and better. I also realize that the emotive drive behind such things is certainly not restricted to cultures sprung from that background. I wonder, though, when a public figure might be so brave and bold as to step forward as say: "Hey! Wait a minute! Let's think about this first." It is entirely human to have a gut-wrenching sorrow for the people of the Gulf Coast area, just as the world did for people clobbered by last year's tsunami. Maybe it just too cerebral to suggest we ought to think about these kinds of events as "divine prompts" to relocate those populations out of such hazard prone areas and let those areas revert to more natural circumstance. The collective "we" has a better understanding of the functions and benefits of vast natural, or even naturalized, areas than ever before, but do we have the wisdom to speak against historical short-sightedness and use that knowledge in shaping a practical public policy debate. It's a huge issue, but the discourse is desparately needed. At least, IMHO.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 07:44 PM

I don't see anything divine about it. It is plain dumb to put up plasterboard homes 12 feet below sea level protected by underfunded and antiquated dykes in an area that is known for bad hurricanes.

The simple math is enough to bring about an evolutionary change in our habits; but what are the chances what will actually happen is the same patterns will be used and rebuilt upon, and another round of needless deaths will be programmed into the system?

A

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:03 PM

How about 100% probability? My parents live in Pensacola, in the Florida panhandle, and have experienced 3 serious hurricanes in the past 2 years. In that period, the real estate values there have increased about 50%. (They have their house on the market, and plan to move well inland.)

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:17 PM

Shame on Bush and his administration ... they can drop a bombs on Bagdad with no problem .... how much of a problem is it to drop a bottles of water and food to desparate humans in their own backyard?

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:25 PM

Where are our resident Bushites?

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM

You live in San Diego, don't you, Amos? I see you had a small tremor a few miles north of there early this morning and a lot of fault lines running through your city. How wise is it to live there?

But you're right anyway.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

Maybe sub-sea New Orleans could be rebuilt but construction limited to hotels, art galleries, music halls, sports stadia and things of that sort? No homes, so that in the event of a future catastrophe everyone faced with immediate evacuation had made a choice to be there?

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM

This was a predictable disaster. Hurricans happen in the Caribbean every year. Within the last 70m years there have been three previous "Category Five" hurricans hit the USA mainland. The sateliites gave adequate warning, if there had been a properly worked-out evacuation plan to swing into action, like they had in Cuba when Hurricane Dennis struck last year, and the death toll was around ten people.

The flood defence budget had been cut to ribbons to pay for the war in Iraq. (Or rather to enable the war in Iraq to be carried out without raising the taxes to pay for it.)

It seems likely that more people died in this than in 911. And they needn't have.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:34 PM

While the stupidity of the Bush Administratioin is something to be marvelled at, it is unsporting to blame them for this one -- numerous reports have pointed out that none of the moneys not allocated were to go to the levees that broke. It is probably more worth pointing out the long-term lunacy of draining the wetlands and refusing to accept the Mississippi's version of where it wants to go..... but the Army Corps of Engineers, which should have been disbanded a long time ago, seems to have its hands full at the moment dealing with a problem they helped create.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:37 PM

If we could hold Bush's feet to the fire on this one, he will probably chalk it up to God's will and turn it around as an attack against people of faith.

I bet even people of faith would have preferred a better levee to 40 more bombs for Iraq.

This issue should be brought to national attention NOW.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:39 PM

With all the Homeland Security concerns about Al Qaeda attacks, wouldn't there have been more plans for dealing with disasters, evacuations, and 'domestic refugees'.

The knowledge of the event of the levees's breaking down due to a hurrcane and it's catastrophic results have been know for years. Well, it happened.

No excuse ... unfortuanetly there will be many exscuses.

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:40 PM

Small tremors are a good thing; they relieve the stress. So far -- I have been here since 1984 -- we have had no serious worries, although a few shakes have awoken us.

Maybe you're right ... it is easy to be blind to math when you have bonds to a place, and everyone wants to be right about where they are being, right?


A

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 09:41 PM

McGrath -- you didn't mean to say "within the last 70 million years", did you?

The other point that can be laid at Bush's door is that the increasing ferocity of hurricanes in recent years is due to warming of the waters, esp. in the Gulf of Mexico.

Which is a result of global warming, which Bush the lesser and his handlers refuse to address because it would hurt the oil and coal industries that own them.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: GUEST,G
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:08 PM

At the risk of being called a Bushite, here goes.............
The attack dogs are out in force (excepting Amos who once again brings some sensibility to the thread - We still are miles apart, however)
The levees were designed and built for a Catagory 3 Hurricane, no more, no less. Those of you who have their Boxers in such a wad, check with the Army Corps of Engineers and you will be told that this ongoing project had but one purpose and that was to increase the height of the levees, NOT to increase their strength.
Lets try to be fair now, I challenge you to check out the plans with the Corps of Engineers.

Should they have been stronger? Now we know after a Cat 4 Hurricane.
But we could surmise that going in, being they were built for a Cat 3.
And Freda, what could have those LA National Guard done differently had they been beside the Levees as opposed to being in Iraq?
Oh yes, they would have drown.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: GUEST,H
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:13 PM

It was a tad unseemly for George to eat cake, you know? He is such a useless sack of shit.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:24 PM

Actually, New Orleans and the other affected areas had/have quite good evacuation plans, and most of the population evacuated to safe areas. The problem is, and I'm not really sure that "problem" is the right word, is that the plan was entirely voluntary. Even after the mayor of New Orleans declared a mandatory evacuation, there was no mechanism in place to force people to leave.

There were certainly a lot of people left behind who did not have the means to go anywhere, and there were also a lot who could have gone but were too pig-headed to leave. What's the percentage of the one and the other? Who knows, and speculation is only speculation. I read earlier today about a couple of tourists (Canadian? Australian?) staying in a Bourbon Street hotel who didn't evacuate when they had the chance because the hotel staff told them something to the effect of "it's ok...we never leave for these things"...and they ended up at the Convention Center.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:26 PM

On Jim Lehrer's News Hour, the correspondent there said that in all the areas he has seen, no one is in charge- that people are being told to go over 'there' for help and when they get there, they are told that no, this is not the place and they can't imagine why someone told them it was. He said it is strictly an ad hoc operation, that the ones who are trying to help are just totally overwhelmed.

He said that he has seen some National Guards but they are directing traffic and acting as security - he said that there has been less looting today because of it - but he has seen very few of them.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:33 PM

Some of 'those tourists' tried to leave on Sunday ... unfortuantely they couldn't get a plane out!

New Orleans has a very large population living under the poverty level ... It's easy for us who are fortunate to get into one of our cars and simply drive off ... if you live in absolute poverty you just don't have that option, and if you did, where the hell ya gonna stay .. at a Quality Inn, and just pay using your credit card!

Thousand did go to the Dome as instructed ... thousands have been spending the last few days in a living Hell!! No one there to supervise.

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:54 PM

Guest G .... funds were allocated to raise the levee's to the Corp of Engineers due to the fact of the knowledge of what would happen if N.O. was hit by a hurricane greater than a Cat 3 .. but these funds were then diverted to Iraq.

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Pogo
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:15 PM

Well, so far as the location of New Orleans goes..well. New Orleans was a disaster waiting to happen and would have happened whether Bush was in charge of things or not. If you want a chill to go up your spine read the October 2004 National Geographic and the article " Gone With The Water " Mind this was written ten months prior to Hurricane Katrina.

" Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States " This is from the article and this was the worst case scenario from a Category Five storm directly hitting the city with a storm surge of about 18 feet. The article also states that the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in NO because it is such a high risk area.

also to consider there is the Louisiana Coastal Area project that the Bush administration didn't seem to like too much. The stats in the article said it was estimated to cost up to 14 billion dollars over a period of 30 years. Apparently the BA wanted to go with two billion dollars over the next ten years to fund the most promising projects and as of the time period of the article, Congress hadn't yet authorized the money.

regardless home is home...even if it's in a basin eight feet below sea level...and really maybe you can't afford to call anywhere else home..nor a TV, radio, a reliable means of transportation and the like. My uncle has a sister in NO, she and all those in the medical line of work were on mandatory lockdown in the hospitals in NO...they anticipated a disaster coming and they were right.

I don't know, but I think bad as it is now it could have been much much worse. I've been through a few nasty hurricanes and I've been lucky I reckon. Survival is all that really matters now for those poor folks and whatever Bush did or did not do isn't going to matter one little bit to them, so I say do what you can to help and that's all I think I want to say on it.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:30 PM

editorial from the Manchester Union-Leader, one of the most conservative newspapers in the country.

Watch out, G.W.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:38 PM

Pogo ... yes I did read that article in National Geographic. I also recall (forgive my memory) a segment on 60 Minutes, CNN or one of those News Magazines on the catastrophic position NO would would be in if a Hurrican hit, that was a few years back. I also remember noticing the evacuation route signs while visiting NO 15 years ago. Problem is there is no excuse for what is happening now.

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 11:44 PM

See the publication date on this one.

Bush also says "Don't buy gas if you don't need it." Yeah, okay then.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Pogo
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:17 AM

*nods* but even so...in my opinion I think it is less about politics and more about human ineptness, bad timing and the wrath of nature reducing you back to the most primitive means of survival.

After a hurricane it's a living hell. You have downed live power lines everywhere, flooding that wipes out roads, trees down, you don't have any way of contacting people and getting the word out that you need help or even any way of telling people where the hell you are since you may very well have had to evacuate with precious little notice ahead of time, pollution from ruptured sewage lines gets into the drinking water and causes disease and God help you if you're living in a trailer. It's hot and humid as hell and combined with the desperation of needing basic supplies...people go crazy. You don't think you just try and get through the day. If you've lost loved ones or a home you aren't going to be on top of things regardless. No one knows what the hell is going on because it's about survival now.

Combined with the fact that they are below sea level and would I imagine have the most trouble with dangerous flooding I really am not surprised at how much trouble that they are having. Plus the fact that local authority may just be plain slack...I know last hurricane that came through my area, people were without electricity for weeks in certain areas of the county. How big is the population of New Orleans? I lived in a rural area farming community for many many years, that's how bad it can get with a small population...I can only imagine how bad it would be there.

Plus if you live in a highly hurricane prone area and one with such a high tourist population you are going to have people who want to sit and wait it out because 1) they don't have a car to get them anywhere to begin with 2) they have never been through a hurricane and think it a grand lark 3) they've been through three or four hurricanes already and weathered them just fine so what's another hurricane more or less?

Disasters bring out the worst and the best in human nature unfortunately...I think that would be the case no matter who is in the office. It was a huge and strong storm...it's done just fine creating chaos without human assistance for as long as the earth's been around.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:24 AM

I dunno Pogo .... politics seems to work lately in orgsanizing for a war ... no problem in logistics sending thousands of troops and equipment quite rapidly over to the middleast .... setting up mini cities, packed full of the latest in technology , the latest and greatest medical facilities ... etc.

This is the finest example of human tragedy in the wealthiest nation in the world, as a result of politcal and executive bumbling.

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: Pogo
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:39 AM

*nods* you are entitled to that opinion :) for the record, war I think more a man-made disaster then a natural one. I'm just saying that no matter how you look at it, the aftermath wasn't going to be something you can solve neatly within a day or so even if the government was right on the ball with getting supplies, medical assistance and rescue teams into New Orleans. If anything I see it as a sobering reminder that man is still at the mercy of nature and his own folly, no matter politics or wealth.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 12:58 AM

I do think Bush and his people bear a lot of responsibility. They should have had a LOT more assistance headed in that direction a LOT faster than they did.

Someone said to me the other day, "If it had been Jeb's state that was in this situation rather than a state that elected a Democratic governor, you can bet they would have had all the help they needed right away". I was skeptical about that at first, but I'm becoming less so with every passing day.

Subject: RE: Review: Outraged over Bush!
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 01:20 AM

That's chillingly uncanny, Cluin (the date of publication on that article).

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:57 AM

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:06 AM

CarolC, 117 semis loaded with supplies on their way to the affected area had to slow down to allow the storm to completely pass to the north.

number 6, IF the levee height had been completed, perhaps the flooding would have been even greater with the extra quantity of water that could be held back. The levee collaspe would have still have occurred.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:06 AM

In Australia, the cyclone that stands out was Cyclone Tracy. On Christmas day in 1974, Cyclone Tracy destroyed the large tropical town of darwin, in the Northern territory of Australia. after and later

Now, while the city was destroyed, there was no flooding and so no comparison in loss of life. However, at the time of the cyclone, Darwin's population was estimated at about 48,000. With essential services all severed, together with the risk of disease, and with food and shelter at a premium, a sizeable part of this population was evacuated. While many people left of their own accord by road, others were evacuated compulsorily by aircraft. The airlift began on Boxing Day and over the next six days more than 25,000 were evacuated to southern cities. Darwin's population was reduced to little more than 10,000. For the next six months access to the city was regulated by means of a permit system.

The emergency response started the evening the cyclone hit, emergency committees were established to deal with such matters as accommodation, clean-up, clothing, communications, evacuation, food, law and order, sanitation and health and social welfare. The defence forces played a major role in cleaning up the city and suburbs.

People were affected deeply (PTSD), and studies found strangely that those who left and never came back were affected the most.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:01 AM

6 days to transfer people - this is the 4th day in New Orleans so maybe things are right on schedule. Would have been better had the people taken advantage of the transportation provide BEFORE the storm hit.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:06 AM

Thanks for the article link, BillD. I say we just keep giving him enough rope...

kat

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: curmudgeon
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM

What transportaition, G ? From everything I've heard and read, there was no transportation offered to the poor (Black, White, Cajun, Creole) woho had no place to go and insufficient finances to care for themselves. Older contingincy plans called for utilising railroads and barges, but none of those were considered when the time came to act.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: number 6
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:08 AM

Guest, G ...what transportation was available before the hurricane hit?? As you stated 6 days to transfer these people out, the mandatory evacuation was announced Sunday, 1 day before the 'hit'!. The great majority of the unfortunate victims left in New Orleans are mainly made up of of people living under the poverty line ... as I stated before I guess they should have drove off in 'one' of their cars, gone up north stayed in a Quality Inn and paid for it with their credit card ... this disaster is also a wakeup call to realize the poverty that exists in the U.S. ... maybe there should be more of an understanding of poverty.

sIx

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

It's too bad about the title of this thread--not likely to get many Bushites even clicking on it.   But the spin I get from the Bush apologists on this (as in the Wall St Journal editorial page) is that "it's a natural disaster--nothing we could have done."

However, Carol raises an interesting point. It is true that Bushites are likely to discount much of what is said here, due to sources we often quote. But here's what the Wall St. Journal (my favorite leftist rag) reporting has to say about Carol's observation.

From the Journal 1 September 2005: Gov Blanco's press secretary: Louisiana "asked, begged,, demanded, cajoled, everything we could do over the last several days for an overwhelming federal response. It is not happening as fast as we had hoped".

"The scene was starkly different in Florida a year ago, after Hurricanes Charley and Frances roared in. Then, federal agencies pulled off a tour-de-force rescue, quickly pouring in billions of dollars to help distressed residents and more still afer two more storms, Ivan and Jeanne, followed. "

I'm sure the difference in the responses to the 2 disasters had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Florida was headed by a person who might possibly be a Bush supporter, and that Florida was seen as an absolutely crucial state in the 2004 election, especially after what happened in 2000. Now, is the Louisiana governor a strong Bushite? Is there an election in 2005? Is Louisiana a crucial state in national elections?   Could that play a role here? Nah, not a chance.

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:13 AM

I've posted considerably on related threads. No need to repeat here. I don't consider myself a "Bushite," but some others undoubtedly will.

Sample of my opinion (new): someone on CNN just said he was "outraged" that American tsunami aid reached Indonesia within two days, but it took three days for aid to reach N.O. He claimed that this was because the victims in N.O. are poor and black.

What he didn't say, however, was that the aid that reached Indonesia so promptly was, at first, merely a token delivery, and furthermore, though it did arrive promptly, logistical problems kept it from being delivered immediately to those who needed it. Just like now.

Not to mention that the American tsunami aid went to nations which, are "poor and (by white American standards) black."

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: Amos
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:13 AM

Well.... a slight chance....


A

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

OK, Guy Who Thinks--

What's your response to my quote from the Wall St Journal?

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: UncleToad
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:45 AM

In all the chaos...Bush gets off his fuel guzzling #1 (after disrupting his permanent vacation) looking fresh and smiling and unconcerned carrying his fucking dawg as if he is attending a white house tea...what image is he portraying to the already laughing at us planet...and asking his dad and Willie Clinton to hold out tin cups again for change...while our money is being burned in Iraq.

Bring our troops and our money home, mr bush...our world and our people need it now.

Uncle(Pissed)Toad

Subject: RE: Outraged over Bush! (Hurricane Katrina)
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 11:59 AM

The flooding in New Orleans makes an enormous difference in how quickly rescue efforts can be carried out. And frankly, the part of the article you quote says only that in Florida, "federal agencies poured in billions of dollars." It doesn't say anything about how many people had to be physically rescued (estimates are up to 100,000 in N.O. alone, or how long it took for the aid to arrive. "A tour-de-force rescue" of what? People trapped in a swamp, or the Florida economy?

AS for the Governor's statement, she seems says that the federal response "is not happening as fast as we had hoped." Nobody doubts this is true. What she did not say (and as a successful politician would have said if she meant to) is "The federal response is disgraceful and inadequate, a national scandal. FEMA is a fraud. If Louisiana were as important as Florida to George Bush's America, this situation would be well in hand."

If the Governor of Louisiana doesn't seem to think this, why should we?

Also, on the vanishingly small possibility that the "evil politician" theory is correct, we'll be getting far more evidence of it in days to come. No Democrat, and few Republicans, would let real evidence of such absolutely self-serving criminality go unnoticed. Why jump to such a conclusion now, when everyone's attention should be on saving lives?