BS: Belfast Riots

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:15 PM

But what you're saying is that if you are a 'legal' entity, you can commit war crimes with greater impunity.

Erm no.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:14 PM

I wholesale condemn the illegal actions of any armed organisation, no problem there.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:08 PM

'Illegal' in your eyes, maybe...
Opinion it is, then.

But what you're saying is that if you are a 'legal' entity, you can commit war crimes with greater impunity.

Not paranoid, Guest. Just being as pedantic as you.

So..., why not condemn the actions of your Army directly.

No buts....

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:01 PM

The IRA were an illegal army, the British army aren't. That isn't opinion. I can't really see where your paranoia over the words 'no one' is coming from, you are crediting me with sublime messages that I haven't sublimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:58 PM

EVERY death is tragic, Guest; every last one.

But why not condemn the actions of your army directly, instead of terminology like 'illegal or otherwise', and 'no one'?

The vocabulary comes from the same stable as the collective, 'ALL', when referring to any other grouping than 'Sinn Féin/IRA', and it covers up (from what I can make out) a very deep sense of guilt hidden inside the British mentality.

Not only have you failed the first hurdle, Guest.
You've made a few false starts to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:48 PM

Exactly, not one armed organisation (illegal or otherwise) has come out of this mess unscathed. Where you might feel comfortable defending the murder of innocents, I do not. Lets face it no one has played a blinder over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

This is not one of those times where one can say "In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king", Guest

The particular reason why, might be that you 'hate people who indiscriminately kill .

... and we were doing so well

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:39 PM

Any particular reason why?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:33 PM

That's great, Guest.

Let's hear it for the British Army now.....

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:23 PM

I have no problem being collectively labelled as one who calls killing innocents terrorism. See, we agree again, this is becoming a habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM

Yeah, well you called it 'terrorism' guest.
The 'likes of yourself' call it terrorism too

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:14 PM

My interest is in Eire being whole again. No interest in Robbie?! Shocking! :) Haha...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:10 PM

epona I have no interest in 'sides' and even less in robbie I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:07 PM

I like Robbie Williams! ;)

GUEST, I could almost agree with you about the "who hit whom first" scenario except this isn't just an issue dealing with history. These problems aren't behind us yet, though the day they are will be unforgetable! These issues of loyalist terror conducted against Republicans and Catholics is ongoing as we've been discussing. It may be an old, OLD problem, but regardless of its age, it's still current. The PSNI and British troops still remain on the sidelines and watch as loyalist paramilitaries terrorize residents of Catholic and Republican areas. Maybe that will change now that the "law" of the North of Ireland has come under direct fire from the same gangs they used to back. One can only pray that it will be so. We'll have to watch and see...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:00 PM

You nearly fell at the first hurdle with the 'likes of yourself', generalisations are lazy. In case you have missed it, I hate those on both sides who indiscriminately kill. Is that clear enough? You also have no knowledge of my politics.

But we agree on Colman's mustard. Now, that wasn't too hard was it? Seeing as we have found safety in all things culinary, do they still sell Taylor's red lemonade? Tayto crisps? Beanos?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

Belfast very normal here tonight. Media not out stirring it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:56 PM

Now, you go on and name me a scenario (like what's happening right now), that was caused because the Nationalist population of one area insisted on their right to march through a Loyalist area?

It's not even a question of 'who hit who first', Guest.
Doesn't even get as far as that.

It is and always has been a question of 'these bastards are killing us, and all we hear are middle class English people singing "We Shall Overcome" in folk clubs'

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

"why don't the people of NI realise that the only way forward is to shelve the who hit who first crap and concentrate on the future"

It is the likes of yourself who are concentrating on the who hit who second, strategem.
We can hardly be blamed for button-holing you on this, and putting you right.

Something I admire about England?

Tha fact that some of its people don't buy into defending an oppressive State, such as you live in.

That, Colman's Mustard, and Fairport Convention

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:17 PM

He hit me first. No I didn't. Yes he did. For crying out loud, after 630 years at your reckoning, why don't the people of NI realise that the only way forward is to shelve the who hit who first crap and concentrate on the future. And before you tell us how the IRA are trying, listen to yourself, it's all us and them still.

Maybe the next generation will be more clued up. Or maybe you aren't representative of the present. But either way try and find some common ground. Start here, tell us something you like about England. If you asked us what we like about Ireland you would have a thread full of praise for the natural beauty, the warmth of the people , the love of the arts, the passion of the poets and authors etc etc etc. That doesn't mean there aren't some right eyesore buildings and ignorant arses over there. But why dwell on the negative.

Go on, tell us something you like/admire about England.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:03 PM

Thirty years of armed struggle brought us further than the 600 previous ones.
You have to admit that

We have been trying to untie ourselves from that whipping post fro years, Guest, but it is very difficult to untie your own hands, feet, and to remove the gag, while the public are constantly calling for your blood.

Name me a scenario that we see now, that was caused because the Nationalist population of one area insisted on their right to march through a Loyalist area?

If it isn't them...., then who is it, Guest.
It can't be us.
We are not at war any longer.

Perhaps you and your kind would like to deal with it.

You seem to have avoided every opportunity afforded to you so far, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:46 PM

If it isnt them it's you. If it isnt you it's them. Maybe the rest of us are bored to the eye teeth with the bullying and bloodshed on both sides. Untie yourself from the whipping post and stop licking your wounds because after thirty years of terrorism you had to admit you were getting fucking nowhere. Tough. Deal with it. Move on and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

That is the problem, Guest,Jonoverandoutforgoodthistime, your perceptions suit your thought processes.

We don't perceive, you see.

We have had to learn it by experience, instead.

The Loyalists are pissed off cos they can't march through Nationalist areas.

I'm left feeling there is no desire from certain quarters at even a bit of lip-service paid to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

Oh and I forgot, thanks Epona for asking me to stick around a bit. I'd had hoped that your reply had meant at least maybe some attempt towards some understanding even if agreement was not to be achieved.

But once again, I'm left feeling there is no such desire in certain quarters here.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM

Thanks for the reply Tir, it underlines my feeling that poison indeed does exist on both sides.

Jon

Over and out for good this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: ard mhacha
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:48 PM

Some Guests on this page are bigger liars than Blair and Bush, we have been told the rioting was carried on by children,and the rioting was minimal?, the damage has been estimated to run into millions.

The police were fired on by armed loyalists and one prominent loyalists is in hospital as a result of a blast bomb going off prematurely, the Klan in the guise of the orange order are angry because they cannot get marching through Harlem.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:35 PM

Good man Jon! Just proves what a Class 1 dipstick you really are.
'Loyalists' are extreme Unionists, ye feckin' eejit.

Note the word extreme in that sentence.
... and the incongruity with the term interest in peace...

You (like a good few others), talk off the top of your head half the time; a hazy mixture of sound bytes remembered, things your family or schoolfriends said, and damage limitation.

Damage limitation, because you know the injustices served upon us, and that if the same thing was to have happened the English, your people would have reacted just the same.... like, for instance if DeValera hadn't had locked up all those Germans during WWII, and Germany did manage to invade, your 'Resistance Army' would have been an honourable concept, would it not?

Are you telling us theat the French Resistance were terrorists?

As for taking religion out of politics... Sinn Féin have been advocating the union of the Working Classes since Civil Rights; but you never heard them say this, as you couldn't hear their voices... banned as they were from telling you what Sinn Féin was all about.

Wolfgang... there is a whole thread covering Loyalist weapons.
(I thought you were one of the more thoughtful members of this forum...)

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM

Hello again! For any of you that want to follow up on my post above, just refer to Peter Taylor's tv series "Loyalists." All that I just posted was admitted to on tv.

And David, I love historical details! That's what I do, though the arguing part I could do without. Love learning new things, though. Have any historical details to throw my way?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:41 PM

GUEST-one more thing for you in case you decide to check back in with our progress. And really, for anyone interested in some background on supporting murder...
The British government funded, equipped and supplied the Red Hand Commandos in Ulster - the leadership admitted it. Also, the Brits funded and trained the early UVF. Interesting bit of info I thought. Still beautiful here - literally not a cloud in the sky! Cheers!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:35 PM

I regard the whole NI dispute foolish.

Two peoples, identical, warring over what?

Nothing. The only beneficiary from the disputes are drug-barrons and weapons smugglers.

To even contemplate sustaining the argument over historical details etc, is suicide of a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:17 PM

Jon - I always appreciate when someone posts the truth as they see it. Unlike some (and I am guilty of this everyone once in a while :) ) you have tried to be level-headed when engaged in discussion here, and we all have those posts where we lash out at a mudcatter or two. Your contributions are welcomed and valued because the purpose of the threads is to have discussions and when only speaking to those that share your same viewpoint, discussions aren't nearly as lively or interesting.

I would encourage you to hang around a little longer and let Tiocfaidh explain why he posted what he posted...And Tiocfaidh, I know you've had a long couple of days recently, but maybe you could just give us a brief post on loyalism :) (your definition, etc)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:02 PM

Well I will come back for this Mick.

Accepted Mick. Hopefully my "come back Conrad"... comments can be taken by you in a similar vein - a post made by me in sheer anger, rather than any desire to see him back here or be taken as to mean (regardless on points we may agree or disagree over) a change in position from me to one whereby I no longer wish that the people in NI manage one day to live in peace.

To clarify, mine is simply I believe wrongs exist on both sides, there have been actions I can not ever accept on either side (again you can count my Britsh government in as a criminal at times). And on this particular issue, I can only see a desire to march through Catholic territory as a desire to provoke hatred.

What still gets me is that a simple statement like.

It does seem to me that there is a loyalist element (and I don't mean all loylists) that has no interest in peace.

Is enough to get me called a pillock from some republicans, even though the blame I was attaching was cleary to loyalists and to no-one else.

The problem I have here is that I can not dot the "I's" and the "T's" carefully enough to please all republicans here and fail to see that everyone who because of the side they are born on by whatever terms of division (loyalist, protestant) we use must be evil (or saintly for that matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:01 PM

Where are the ususal IRA mouthpieces? very quiet on this thread. Expected to hear a history lesson. Spoke to a friend in Belfast last night who said the incidents which appeared on the news were it. A few cars burned and a swipe or two at the police and army. Media making news out of nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:27 AM

Jon, you are correct. Chalk that one up to quick response. I have just went back and read all your contributions to this thread. I could do that because you use the identity always. You have never suggested that I or anyone else is a plastic paddy. In fact, your responses are usually very respectful. I don't agree with you on all aspects of this, but you do not deserve to be lumped in. I apologize.

GUEST, you are another matter. You simply fall back on the old tried and true, "You are naieve" line. Doesn't hold water, and is a sign of intellectual weakness. The fact is that most, by a remarkable percentage, of the provocations are being done by the Loyalist/Unionist community in the hopes of destroying the peace process. This can only be because they want the status quo maintained. I find it laughable that they are now whinging about the concessions given to the IRA. Where were these cries of outrage over several centuries of the favoritism that benefitted them. And this isn't ancient history. The fact is that until the Good Friday Agreement, the institutional discrimination against the Catholic/Republican folks was rampant.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:20 AM

As one who is as neutral as can be imagined...neither Catholic OR Protestant, and only vaguely Irish, and having read stories about all this since about 1970 or so, I see plenty or blame to go around and plenty of narrow, bitter, self-centered views about cause and solutions....much as in the middle-east, the Balkans or Los Angeles.

But in the current context, I must agree totally with Jimmy C. The spark in these troubles was a march, planned and carried out knowing it would open old wounds and dare the hot-heads on the other side to "do something about it" so a claim could be made that "he started it"! The marches seem to me to be 5% celebration and 95% provocation, with no real goal except to assert their 'rights'.

I can just imagine the result if the Israelis, having withdrawn from occupying Gaza, now assert their 'right' to march thru it a couple of times a year. (and I don't care if you consider that an inaccurate comparison...it makes the point)

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:14 AM

I take pride in helping to promote the peace process through non-violent means through Irish Northern Aid. I love the organization and it's members. Check out the mission statement, GUEST, if you are in doubt of their peaceful goals now. www.inac.org.

I'm also proud of collecting historical newspapers, which are displayed in my office, in order to preserve the memories of the struggle. It is always amazing to me to see the development over time of the Republican movement in the North, and I am extremely proud of that progress as well, though we have a way to go.

Helping to buy the means to murder innocent adults and children? YOUR tax dollars and mine go to funding the same thing...have you been unaware of the British and American troops in Iraq? I appreciate your attempts to disrupt the discussion, but the members of mudcat will keep on in your absence. Enjoy your day...nothing but blue skies here. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

Well done epona. Hope you are mighty proud of helping to buy the means to murder innocent adults and children. And Mick, as someone else who has also upped their coffers, it's easy to wax lyrical from another continent while financing murder elsewhere. And you have the gall to call others self righteous.

I'm out of here too, have you noticed mick, no one living in the UK shares your views, guess that means we are all wrong. Roll on your next veterans thread, the hypocrisy reeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM

Come back Conrad Bladey, all is forgiven. I used to detest your extreme loyalist views over here but I'm beginning to think there are some republicans in this thread who deserve you.

Jon

Over and out for this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:31 AM

Hello, Jimmy. Thank-you.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Den
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:29 AM

And where are these guns the republicans have given up?

You might want to chat with Canadian General John de Chastelain. He was brought in to over-see the decommissioning of IRA weapons. He and The Independent International Commission on Decommissioning seem satisfied that the IRA have complied.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:28 AM

The last post abot the reason for the marches is by me.

Jimmy.C

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:27 AM

As one who was born and bred in Belfast, I am appalled at the complete lack of knowledge from some of the above posts, especially from some "GUESTS".

To put it in a nutshell, the weekend of riots by loyalists was not caused because they could not march, it was because they could not march through a catholic district. In othere words their marches
(approx 4,000) from May to September are not marches to define or retain their culture, the reason for the marces is simply to antagonize their catholic neighbours. These marches do not mean anything to the orange order unless they accomplish that goal.

Antagonise, insult, etc etc etc. NO MORE. Orange marches through catholic areas would be the same as the american army marching through Hiroshima, or marching through Georgia, year in and year out. NO MORE. Hold their marches through loyalist areas as there will be no trouble. Period.

This violence wa orchestrated simply to ensure the catholic areas will feel threatened and maybe have to call on the I.R.A. for protection, then the loyalists and their politicians can start squaking about the I.R.A. breaking another promise.

The marches have nothing to do with culture, they have to do with antagonism, and if they fail to accomplish that, then the reason for marching at all will have lost it's meaning and hopefully they will just fade away, much like the orange order is doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:08 AM

Yes and yes. So what does that make me, GUEST? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

Ever bought a newspaper that supports the IRA mick? Ever contributed to NORAID?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:56 AM

Who is the both Mick? I see one nameless Guest who I've no clue who it is (and therefore can not know what stances have been made elsewhere)and me disagreening with some of your stances and I for one can't remember ever accusing you of being a plastic paddy or suggesting you should not be allowed to express your views. Where do you get that from?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:52 AM

Mick you are unable to present a balanced view, because you don't hold one. Your bias is staggeringly naieve.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:26 AM

Sometimes things can be seen best from afar.

Both of you must agree as you continually post on the problems in the US, often with a great deal of self righteous indignation. If it is your right to continually tell us "Yanks" and "Plastic Paddy's" what is wrong with us and our government, then it is mine to say it as I see it with regard to the North of Ireland. Your only answers to the arguments raised are to try and raise the old "we just don't understand cause we don't live there" flag. It is a sure sign of the weakness of your arguments.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:10 AM

GUEST - The guns are in the dumps as ordered. Hope that helps.

Mick - Couldn't have said it any better. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:09 AM

Wrong Mick, my responses were to what I percieved as insults.

My own view one this specific issue was expressed in the first post when I said,

"It does seem to me that there is a loyalist [simply meaning one side of a divide] element (and I don't mean all loylists) that has no interest in peace."

If I had my way there wouldn't be these marches...

They funniest or saddest thing in all this is that only republicans can put me off republicans... And once again, IMO, it was one of the more rabid ones that changed the directions of my comments in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:07 AM

Mick to say that anyone on this thread is being an apologist for the loyalists and that the british support them, shows just how far removed from this situation you are.

And the emotive acts that you continually state have been commited on BOTH sides. You see the majority of people living here want peace, not endless mud slinging. And where are these guns the republicans have given up?

Subject: RE: BS: Belfast Riots
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:51 AM

I have said in any number of posts, on numerous threads, that I have never found the bombing of innocent civilians to be a legitimate tactic. But the responses above exactly make my point as to why you folks are continually seen in a negative light. This thread is about the riots by Loyalists over the refusal to allow them to march through the same neighborhoods that have seen their 8 to 12 year old little girls terrorized in vicious ways that will likely scar them for life, thrown balloons filled with urine at them, defaced their churches, driven Catholics out of their homes at gunpoint in the middle of the night, and on and on. You folks, instead of attacking that want to keep on about the IRA. This group is the leader in trying to make the peace process work. The Loyalists are the ones trying to torpedo this same process. The Republicans have embraced the political process, and have given up the gun, even in the face of continued aggression from the Loyalist communities. And all you can do is be apologists for the actions of these enemies of peace.

Many things were done during this version of the troubles that are regretable and horrific. The tally sheet will give plenty of fodder for both sides to throw. The only road to peace is the one paved with the good intentions of the British people. Until they quit any support of the Loyalists whose aim it is to kill the peace process, the trouble will go on. The past is a road filled with recrimination, and both sides can make arguments as to the validity of theirs. The future will be built by the actions of decent people who act ......... or don't ...... in the best interests of peace.

Mick