Obit - English folk Music.

Subject: Obit: English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Stan Hargreaves.
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:17 PM

Subject: RE: Obit: English folk Music.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:19 PM

You have some information to share with us, GUEST,Stan Hargreaves?

Subject: RE: Obit: English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:21 PM

I would say it's alive and more vibrant than ever!!!

Subject: RE: Obit: English folk Music.
From: GUEST,S.A.
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:25 PM

I meant to say that the so called folk club I attended tonight was
not very good, in fact it was terrible, one singer after another,
each worse than the other, but each applading the rest, BORING.'

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Jack.
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:51 PM

I have no idea I don't know which folk club our guest is talking
about, but I have been many times sick and tired of the same sets,
songs, etc, presented by Englishe people pretending to be Irish.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 07:52 PM

So where was it? and what was your contribution to allieviating the boredom? Its so easy to throw stones is'nt it?

Gerry

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:05 PM

For what it's worth I'm piss-bored of spotty, talentless wannabes who regularly make the top 10 pretending to be American. What a pointless thread! If you've had a bad experience, don't go there again. Problem solved.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Stan.
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:15 PM

I was persuaded agaist my judgement to give folk music a try in my
side room in Whitby, it was a disaster, only a hansfull of elderly
people, I think we will stick to our normal nights.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Chris Green
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:17 PM

Okay. Like I said, problem solved. Your point was...?

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: number 6
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

I think it's gettin' better all the time.

sIx

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:51 PM

so folk music died in Whitby. Its that sort of place. My honeymoon was there and it pissed down, an was misty, and sodding freezing, and the B &B was damp along with everything else - this was in August.

No wonder Dracula landed there. The land of the undead - but only just!

To paraphrase Frank Zappa, if the twist ever makes a comeback, it will be in Whitby. Whitby is ready for it.......

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:52 PM

THE TWIST?

Let's twist again like we did last summer?

That TWIST?

Yeah.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:56 PM

Yo, Stan. See the Whitby F.I.L.O. folk thread.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 09:45 PM

I hope it remembered me in it's will.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,MikeofNorthumbria(at home)
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM

A journalist once asked a (temporarily) famous rock star what his favourite book was. The star replied (expletives deleted) that he had only once read a book, had not enjoyed it, and did not intend to repeat the experience. Ever.

Well, I guess that's it for literature folks!

Seriously though ... one bad concert/singaround/session/CD is not sufficient evidence for condemning an entire musical genre. It's about as logical as saying that all oriental cuisine is rubbish, on the grounds that your first (and only) sample of it from the local take-away wasn't particularly nice.

English folk music has faced many challenges over the past few centuries. Its survival has been threatened by Puritanism, industrialisation, rural depopulation, commercialised popular music, misguided school-teachers, insensitive nostalgia peddlers, ignorant music critics, cynical journalists, clever satirists ... and yes ... not a few inept performers. Nevertheless, it's still here. And if we take as good care of it as our forebears did, it may continue to enrich the lives of future generations.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:54 AM

Some floor singers are like politicians, worthy of suspicion. Always ask yourself why they want to do it.
G..

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:28 AM

I have asked myself - but I still can't see anything too suspicious about anyone wanting to sing?

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:57 AM

In any amateur pastime you are bound to have people of varying ability, if you have had one bad evening you should have ay least another attempt, have a word with Gil in the Plough, John in the Endeavour, Sue in the Black Horse or Chuck in the First In and you may find that the folkies tend to be good drinkers who don't cause any bother, I.E Good Customers, if your buisness can do without the added trade then fine, if you're looking for extra trade you could do worse than buy yourself soome earplugs !
Tell you what let me know which pub you run and I'll see if we can't liven it up some night with some stonking singers and musicians, making sure dirges are discouraged !!

Cheers

Raggy

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

I agree with Shambles. At worst, they are looking for their 3 minutes of stardom, or the chance of a gig, or to promote the latest CD they put together. I am not concerned with floorsingers' motives, they are all valid in my book. In a singaround, everyone deserves a go.

And if your singaround attracts lesser-quality singers (by whatever judgement), don't moan about it, do something to improve it. Coach them to become better (I have seen several floorsingers flourish in the last 5 years alone, to the point where they now command gigs on their own merit - heck, I was one); show your approval of the better ones, to encourage them to come back; seed the session with some good singers that you know, by asking them to come along.

It is not enough to simply stick a board outside the pub saying "folkies welcome" and expect the rest to happen by itself. Did you get someone who knows his stuff to run the session? Did you ask them to contact some of their friends to make the session good? And did you think that the sign itself could be actually offensive, as it marginalises folk music lovers? It's like saying "dogs welcome". Know your customers before you despair of them or their absence.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: mooman
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:15 AM

I mixed a bit of instrumental vintage Pink Floyd on my OM (through a Korg Acoustic Toneworks) with a Durham mining song (with Northumbrian instrumental break) followed by a pre-Carolan harp tune at a short spot in a concert here in Belgium a few weeks ago.

The response suggested English Folk Music was certainly not dead but, rather, a little surprising and interesting!

Peace

moo

P.S. In my 5 years of running a FC in the UK I found that even the worst singers' evening produced a few unexpected gems.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: gnomad
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:22 AM

Tell us more about your "side room" happening, Stan.

As a folky in the town I thought I knew most of what was going on, and cannot place the event from your description so far. You could also add the licensees of the Tap&Spile, or the Friendship Rowing Club, to Raggytash's list of people to consult.

I will grant you that Whitby folkies tend to be in the 40+ age range, but they are generally decent customers, and I don't think that they are crowding out the host of the sub-20 year olds which constitutes the holy grail of many brewers/pub chains. The youngsters tend to avoid those places which appeal to folkies, in fact the whole town seems to me to appeal most to the more mature person, or the very young.

I think the "Obit" may, like that of Mark Twain (and Dave Swarbrick), be premature.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:38 AM

Oh well - another chance to plug the Donisthorpe Quarter Sessions - like many other events, these are packed with extremely talented singers and musicians performing English songs and music. Take the time out to come along and see what can happen!

epn

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:59 AM

Tell us what your pub is called Stan, and we'll know to avoid it in future.

eric

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:07 AM

Wrong attitude Eric, if Stan has has one bad experience why don't we let him see waht a good session is like

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:36 AM

First of all, 'GUEST Stan', bo....cks to you, you ageist bastard! The only reason I hope that you don't die young is that you grow up to find out what it's like to be older. I hope you end up with arthritis, cataracts and piles!

As to whether English Folk Music is dead, or not, I had a bit of a 'Road to Damascus' experience earlier this year. I had sort of avoided Eliza Carthy because I expected hip hop versions of my favourite songs and it didn't appeal really (I am, after all, a self-confessed purist - and proud of it). How wrong I was! I heard Ms. Carthy at a festival and I could hardly believe my ears - here was an artist who got closer to the emotional core of English trad. song than anyone I can think of. Her versions of Walter Pardon's 'Still Growing' and 'The Raggle Taggle Gypsies' were just fabulous - I just wish that Walter were still around to hear what she did with the songs that she learned from him.
English trad. song is powerful stuff to those of all ages ('Guest Stan', please note!)who have the ears to hear it and just occasionally an artist like Ms Carthy will come along who can do it justice.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:42 AM

Bellowhead and Eliza & the Ratcatchers are just two examples of why it isn't dead.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Ernest
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:46 AM

Reminds me of the story about the Englishman who came home after years of service in India. First thing he does is going to his club. Since it is early in the day there is no one around but a grumpy looking old fellow. Nevertheless our hero asks him if he would join him into a drink. The old guy answers: "No, I don`t drink. Tried it once, didn`t like it.". So the man offers him smoke a cigar together. Answer: "No, I don`t smoke. Tried it once, didn`t like it.". Frustrated the man asks the old guy if he would play a round of billard wit him. Answer: "No, I don`t like it. Tried it once, didn`t like it. But my son is due to arrive soon. He plays billard."
"Your only son, I presume?"

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:16 AM

Im still trying to crack the nut of how to get The British tourisum baord over here in the USA to start supporting Traditional British folk music and dance . I love English folk music and know there must be a way to help nurture the gendre and give it the suport it needs .
                Its been a year or three since Ive been over to play with people but I would say the Get togethers for the Riponn Morris mens band are as lively as ever and that the gang around Beverly and Hull are having as much of a blast as they did when I visited last ..
               One of the strengths of people making music is that it is the suprise of what that person has to give. The gift is not always perfect as the level of expertise we are used to and hear on the TV or Radio .(and more diverce thank god ) So it can take work to be in the moment to hear something great come along . It is worth the work in my eyes .

               THere is nothing more centering or grounding then looking for music that comes from ones own county . Its a great path to finding ones voice .( or at least a part of ones voice). This is an interesting task but not for everyone .
            From this American Fan I can only say Long Live and grow this wonderful tradition . It is in the roots of everything I do and makes the music I play and listen to have that much more depth . All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

If it weren't so tragic, I could be quite amused at the way some people seem to think that the great professional singers and musicians sprang, fully trained and professionally polished from the egg.

Every singer started out nervous and hesitant, and the talented ones improved, with years of experience, to become what they now are.

If we all subscribed to your view, Stan, they would never have had the chance to gain that experience.

Sure there are some that don't improve, but in my experience, even they can come up with the occasional gem. Their enthusiasm, and love of music makes it worthwhile to listen to them IMO.

Remember that folk music has its roots in the days when mass entertainment did not exist, even as a hazy concept. When Cecil Sharpe collected all those songs, they came mostly from old people with cracked and wavering voices, who were the only ones who could remember them. They were not professionals.

My own folk club will never attempt to weed these people out in the name of "better" entertainment, and I don't hear any complaints from people who have to sit through one or two dodgy performances interspersed with some really talented folk.

In point of fact, the last comment I had about one of our less able contributors was from a non singing member of the audience, who said "I wish I had the courage to stand up and sing in front of thirty people, I could never do that". I had a chat with him, and he is now one of our favourite, and most rapidly improving performers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:32 PM

Since getting involved with my "Wild English Rose" I've been to many sessions in England. Some were not so great, others quite enjoyable, but that's life.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:33 PM

Waterson Carthy CDs are (usually) available at my local Borders Books here in the hinterlands, along with MacColl anthologies (with as much English as Scottish stuff on them), along with Fairport, Steeleye, Maddy Prior, and some others.

If it's selling enough to be stocked regularly by big chains, English folk music isn't quite dead even in the U.S.A.

But I don't think any English-language form of traditional song could be said to actually "flourish" until there are variant rap versions of "Sir Patrick Spens" and "Barbara Allen." For good or ill, I think I'll be plowing with a peacock's feather before that happens.

All that's necessary in 2005 to keep a musical genre "alive" -that is, available and inspiring - is a pool of great performers. English folk has some of those. For traditional musical forms to flourish, though, you also need performers who may be less great but who can still produce new or adapted work that, to enough people, is still "true to the tradition."

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:36 PM

Well I think that there is a touch on ingenuousness in the replies to my tongue in cheek post before. We all know what I meant, and it's not the El Grekos of this world.
Laugh and the world laughs with you. [I should bleedin' cocoa!]
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 12:37 PM

Some of the best performers will make a point of sitting through the floor spots until it is their turn, encouraging and warmly applauding. I'll name a few:- Martin Carthy, Alastair Hulett, Nancy Kerr and James Fagan. They were beginners once. I'll agree that to an outsider that a first step into a club or session can present a grim face, but the beauty of it all is that here we have a scene that encourages people to have a go, otherwise it stops becoming folk music and just becomes art.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:05 PM

I will grant you that Whitby folkies tend to be in the 40+ age range

Really? Presumably that was a different Whitby to the one in North Yorkshire or did you just stay in a pub full of old farts rather than going to some of the festival events?

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 02:52 PM

Well seeing as Gnomad lives in the town and was refering to the resident population and regular visitors like myself (20-25 times per annum for myself)........ and no mention has been made of the festival by the originator of the thread ...........

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 04:07 PM

To analise the situation with Stan he opened up a room and hoped that it would be filled with fantastic talent.If he had spent a little bit of money,booked a good guest/guests for a few nights to get things started, then new talent has a go,well known artists hear that it is a good evening and so it builds up.To just open up a room and hope, is almost sure to create a night that he got.
Sessions are going well and attracting good crowds but a strong group of musicians, on a regular basis ,once more is the key.
Folk clubs are a different matter the local singers/musicians get priority over people turning up on the night.We were once booked for a folk club in Southampton and the BBC told the organisers they would be there.The organiser was blackmailed by his local artists that they would not attend the club again if they did not get a spot.To get us ten minutes at the end the plug had to be pulled out of the socket whilst the artist was in full song and refused to get off stage.We were the artists booked and who the BBC turned up to record,our total time on stage eight minutes.This is a club out of control,with a weak organiser.Who would go to a Folk club again if they took their instrument,heard average/poor performances and was never even asked to do even one number.It was this type of attitude that stopped me Folk Clubbing.
Al

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 05:25 PM

The king sits in Dunferline town
Drinking his blude red wine
oh where can I get a smart assed m-----f-----
to sail this good ship of mine

nah!

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:19 PM

Yo, the king's on his throne in Dunfermline TOWN !
He's pourin that wine, yo, he's swiggin it DOWN !
Where's that m----f----- gonna find hisself a sucka
To sail on the water for the Norway king's daughter ?
Hmmmmmmmmm???????

Yo, this dude stands up, from the king's f----- crew,
Says, "hey, my liege, lemme tell ya what ya do !
Ya get Sir Patrick Spens, f------ hard-core dude,
He's a sailin' m------f------- with a ATTITUDE, yo !


Works for me.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 06:30 PM

I have shared open stages with some very accomplished performers and writers and singers--and with some who were just starting out. I have learned something about performing and writing and singing from every single one of those folks. I've seen great people on bad nights and so-so people on great nights. I hope I have always said something positive to all of them. I tried to do that, because the pat on the back may not come from the audience, but that is no reason it couldn't come from me.

Keep in mind that a pat on the back is only six inches higher than a kick in the ass. For all of us.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:18 PM

look the guy had a bad night
its like paul simon says, you can't be forever blessed
tomorrow night the old primal urge reasserts itself and we're all out there fumbling about to locate the audiences g spot
hunting the snark
good hunting to one and all!

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:32 PM

Obit, English Darts.

Well, I was in my local pub the other night, and there were some really shit darts players....

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Arkie
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:18 PM

It seems that in this present age the emphasis is placed all too often on performance. One of the things that appeals to me about folk music is that even if the performance of the tune or song is not particularly engaging or charismatic the song or tune is worth the hearing.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM

Well said, Arkie.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Ernest
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:05 AM

Aren`t there tv-shows like "StarSearch" in nearly all countries? Where you hear/see lots of not-very-talented people try to make a break through, being badly critisized for it from some comittee, and one of them (a bit better looking, but not able to play an instrument etc. person) is declared a "Star"?
Which floor-singers in folk-clubd etc never claim to be?
Do we have to open a thread "Obit: Rock and Pop music" now?

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,fidjit
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:38 AM

Nice one Ernest

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 04:59 AM

Thanks Raggy, yes I was referring to the day to day Whitby folkies, rather than the festival crowds.

Being well past the 40 mark is no barrier to enjoying performing a song or tune or two, and maybe enjoying a drink or two as well, and this is well illustrated by the scene in Whitby.

Well Stan hasn't said any more yet, I wonder whether we've been hoaxed... (casts around for a likely suspect) ... anyone seen Tyke around here?

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 05:15 AM

Alan Day,

You were unlucky to have appeared at that club. I know of a couple similar in format, but they are not the norm.

At my club, as in most others, the opposite would have happened. The fact that you had travelled to be there would have guaranteed you a better than usual spot, no matter how many others were wanting to play.

I try to give my punters more of people they cannot usually hear. After all, the locals will be there next week. Also, anyone who threatened to remove himself if not featured, would be invited to do so with immediate effect.

If you ecer feel inclined to try folk clubbing again, and I hope you will, come visit Open House Acoustic in Maidstone, let me know you are coming, and you will go on, if necessary, instead of myself, or the residents.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 08:36 AM

I may take you up on that Don you are not a million miles away with me at Gatwick about one hour by car(Not jet).
Al

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 10:41 AM

I hope so, Alan, and apropos of that, we have Alanabit doing a 45 minute showcase (with Markus Apitius) this coming Monday.

See Open House Acoustic Permathread for details.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

Stagger the lines, drop the melody and you might be able to rap Sir PS.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Alan Day
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 02:58 PM

I am actually Folk Clubbing next Saturday 1st Oct doing an "Anglo International" Launch in Lewes with Roger Digby,John Watcham,Mandy Murray,and Zak van de Vyver.This will be my first Folk Club booking in about ten years,so I am determined to enjoy it.
I will contact you Don when I can get along,thanks for the invite.
Al

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:12 PM

THis all sounds pritty alive to me !! All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,living dead folkie
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:55 PM

so are there more living folk singers and musicians
than dead ones..???

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 05:26 AM

Make sure that Watcham hasn't had too many samples at the Rolling Out at Harvey's or it will be a 'sea of buttons' all over again.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 08:43 AM

Old folkies never die,   they just smell that way.

eric

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:04 AM

Manitas ....... What? don't understand !

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:50 AM

Well, I was in my local pub the other night, and there were some really shit darts players....

I hope they were not playing after 11pm?

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 10:14 AM

It is not John I am worrying about it is Mandy.It is a good job Guinness is not launching anything.She can certainly drink me under the table.
Al

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 29 Sep 05 - 05:59 PM

Well, I was in my local pub the other night, and there were some really shit darts players....

I hope they were not playing after 11pm?

I hope there were only two in the bar as well - apart from the first aiders, that is.

Subject: RE: Obit - English folk Music.
From: Alan Day
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 05:42 PM

Please come and say hallo if any of you can get to the Royal Oak Lewes, tommorrow (Sat)Two launches HARVEYS ALE & ANGLO INTERNATIONAL.
I will be taking part in both.
Al