Tech: Sound Engineers

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 07:40 PM

Thank God I never got into that bag!

Most of the places where I've sung didn't require a sound system. "Pamir House," a coffeehouse, seated about forty people at most, and it was not much larger than many living rooms. "The Place Next Door" had a capacity of about seventy-five or eighty with no sound system necessary, although later, when Stan James bought it, he changed the name to "The Corroboree," and changed the internal layout. He also did put in a sound system, but it was hardly necessary. Since I was on the stage in front of the mic and he was in the back of the room, he knew what I sounded like and I didn't, so I left it to him. "El Matador," also no sound system necessary. A half-dozen other coffeehouses, no sound system needed.

The Seattle Center Playhouse, 800 seat capacity, great acoustics, no sound system needed, although there was one available. Didn't use it. Nor did Richard Dyer-Bennet when he sang there.

Singing at the Sunday afternoon concerts at United Nations Pavilion during the Seattle World's Fair in summer of 1962, there was a PA system, but with several hundred people sitting on the grass in a half-circle in front of the singers, it wasn't really necessary. A year later, during the Seattle Center Hootenannies during the summer, when the weather was gorpy, we sang in Center House, which was a huge space—the old National Guard Armory. The acoustics were very echoey and it did need some sound engineering, but there again, I left it to those who knew what they were doing. Outdoors during good weather, we drew crowds of up to 16,000 (police department estimate) into the amphitheater in front of the Horiuchi Mural, and there was a PA system there.

During the Northwest Folklife Festivals, there were PA systems everywhere, in both indoor and outdoor venues. All handled by pros, who knew more about sound systems that I did (do).

Never had a problem.

I saved a lot of money and general wear and tear by not getting bogged down in electronic gear. I play an acoustic classical (nylon-string) guitar. No pick-ups, no wires. Just a very good, resonant guitar. And I have a pretty big voice (don't sing opera, but other than sounding like a frog in a rain-barrel, I probably could).

One afternoon years ago, I was meeting a friend at a local tavern, and I got there way early. During the evenings, a small jazz combo played there. They'd left their instruments on the band stand. I knew the bartender-owner, and he asked me if I'd like to try out the guitar. Standard solid bodied electric guitar with about thirty pounds of pick-ups, switches, and knobs bolted to it. He assured me the guitar's owner wouldn't mind. I'd never played an electric before, so I said, "Sure!" He flipped the switch and I sat there for about a half-hour goofing around on it until my friend arrived.

My Gawd, all that power at the turn of a knob!

Travis picking, classic pieces, and flamenco (!!) take on a whole new dimension and magnitude on a gadget like that!

But like a potential drug addict being offered his first opportunity to main-line, I grabbed myself by the scruff of the neck and pulled myself back from the brink! I realized that that way lies depravity and madness! And expense! All those amplifiers and other gear to buy! I was about to run screaming when my friend dropped in, we had a beer and some quite conversation, and my heart rate returned to normal.

I buy my classic guitar new strings regularly, but that's the only thing it requires of me. Except to be played a lot.

I've sung in a lot of different venues, but my favorite is the small, intimate and personal house concert. It harks back to the days of the minstrels and troubadours.

Don Firth

P. S. Speaking of minstrels and troubadours, I once sang at a benefit where a lot of other musicians were performing. One of them was a lutenist. Anachronistically enough, he had equipped the lute with a contact mic going to an amplifier and big speaker. Weird!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: josepp
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:57 PM

I didn't have a piano pickup. I miked it with two mikes positioned over the soundboard inside the housing (it was a spinet). It's always worked great and it's how you would do it in the studio). But the pianist took the front cover off which completely exposes the soundboard to the player but all the sound flows out the big hole and misses the mics which now pickup everything outside--other instruments, monitors, everything. With a soundcheck, I could have showed them how it wasn't going to work and that I could turn up the piano in the monitors instead but those guys don't listen. They think the soundman is supposed accomodate them under any and all circumstances.

Now, I would like to say that MOST of the musicians in this society were cool and I enjoyed working with them. It was just a few that made trouble for me but they were by far the most influential. I wouldn't mind working with the other musicians outside the context of the society but I haven't seen any of them in years and some are, no doubt, dead. I hate it when you tell them that they're making it impossible to mic them properly and they say not to to worry about it like they understand your situation but they clearly don't as was evident by their complete dissatisfaction with the terrible sound they brought on themselves by not listening to the guy whose job it is to make them sound great. And instead of apologizing for not heeding him, blame the whole thing on him instead and get him canned.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:09 PM

As for miking a piano - a PZM blu-tacked to the soundboard works a treat! Opposite side of the board to the strings, of course - underneath if it's a grand, or on the back of an upright.

Okay, not ideal for recording, but that's not what we're talking about.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM

Richard - just try a trumpet blown by the likes of Maynard Ferguson into an SM58 at VERY close range... EVERYTHING lights up!!

;o)

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: josepp
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 04:02 PM

@ Ralphie

This was for a jazz society whose musicians were union. They get paid whether the show goes on or not. When they begged me to do the sound after they hounded my predecessor out of the position, I was so thrilled that I offered to do them for free. They said no, I'll get paid the union wage which was nice of them but I realized shortly after that I was getting paid so that they could heap abuse on me--I'm getting paid so what am I complaining about?

What happened was a guy took the cover off his piano at one show making it impossible to mic and I told him so. The other musicians sided with him--if he wants to take it off then let him take it off, they said. I kept protesting that I can't mic a piano with the cover off but to no avail. Then, of course, no soundcheck. The show was a total disaster--horrible. Of course I was to blame. Of all the shows I did for them which were smashing successes, this one was the only bad one and they were the cause. But the band was pissed off and they told the director they never ever wanted to work with me again. A lady who overheard the whole thing told me all about it. She said the director, Bill, told them, "Ok, he's gone. But don't expect me to hire him back. I'm not a yo-yo."

Then Bill had to find a new soundman and was forced to go to a professional company. These guys were more expensive than me and wouldn't put up with anybody's shit. And they demanded a soundcheck a half-hour before the show began or they pack up and leave and they still have to be paid. This pissed off the musicians who refuse to do soundchecks. When people went up to them and said, "I can't hear the piano." They got, "Go sit down!" as a response. Something I would never do--but maybe I should have.

So now all the members of this society wanted these guys gone. What was wrong with Josepp? they asked.   Get him back, he was polite and everyone liked him and his sound was great. But Bill said no. Under no circumstances would he beg me to come back after the musicians demanded he get rid of me. And I wouldn't have gone back anyway without putting the same demands on them that these other guys did but, in truth, I wasn't interested in doing it anymore.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 03:20 PM

Ah well, I'm out on Friday for the first time in ages - I only do it for a bit of fun. It's a good opportunity to inventory the kit and retrieve the bits that have been on long term loan. I was lucky enough to get some classic Celestion horns a while back and this will be their first time out in anger. They are reputed to be very sweet and they certainly sound nice in my drawing room.


I normally carry a little HiFi amp to power some headphones so that I can listen to the foldback mixes and make sure that every instrument is in there at a sensible level. It gets a bit exciting on the eardrums doing above the FoH during performance.

One of the bands I lent a 300 watt driver (an Eminence pro series) to to replace the 100 watt one they had blown in a foldback wedge. They were driving it with a little old H/H. I did say "NO kick drum in the foldback". When I got it back they had succeeded in ripping it off the edge suspension all the way round! I'll be watching them this time.

The other band I lend stuff to I had a hell of a row with the drummer. He kept saying "Just stick an SM58 in the kick drum, it'll do the job". I had to get the WHOLE of the band out front and make them listen as I changed mics to persuade him.

I have, however, NEVER succeeded in getting anything the size of a BOSE 1800 into clipping on foldback.   A Hill DX700, yes, but that's a fair bit smaller.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 11:50 AM

Bet you can't beat the time we actually had a write up in the Telegraph for a soundcheck! I was trying to sort the drum sound in the opera theatre at the RNCM in Manchester whilst the BBC were broadcasting from the studio theatre next door. They came in to ask us to keep the noise down to which my reply was that they had hired us the theatre and if it was faulty that was their problem.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 03:25 PM

"being only applicable to low levels so that it tends to devalue the effects of low frequency noise in particular"

Yep - which is WHY the Toowoomba Regional Council finally agreed after enormous pressure to accept dBC for music (with highly boosted bass eg 'Rock'). Of course it did require much faffing around like the mating of elephants, including having a State Attorney General resign shortly after having passed the buck to the State Environmental minister - she replied in a very condescending way that my 'concerns were needless as the dBA scale measured music of all frequencies, not just in the musical scale of C' ... !!!!!! I'm not making this shit up! That poor lady did seem to be a little politically accident prone though ...

There was the time I went to buy a 'weather gauge' gadget with combined temp, humidity and atmosphere pressure gadgets. Noticed that none of the readings on any of the items for sale were near each other - "those ones are still sealed in the plastic bags sir" .... open bags sealed with a bit of sticky tape - didn't buy one !!!!"

The sound info you have 'discovered' was not unhelpful during the battle ... :-) The Council 'chief sound engineer' did accept that dBA threw away a massive amount of the low frequency sound energy compared with dBC, the graphs were most helpful.

JiK was also of great assistance - it was interesting to know that pure 600 Hz at 40 dBA will ripple your coffee ..:-)

It was also interesting to find out that HF dissipates rapidly, whereas LF tends to 'flow along the ground' like an earthquake ... :-)

Trying to compare dBA with dBC especially for 'rock' with highly boosted bass is 'educational' ... :-)

The 'sound clowns' for this local event also do the 'carols by candlelight' with hysterical results. The sound for the prerecorded or live 'thumper musos' is enough to blast you out of your seats (why do you need a dozen mics on a drum kit?!!! - BALANCE!!!! the turn the bloody instrument amps down mate!!!), but when they then try to use a single long throw overhead mic to capture the 100+ voice choirs ... eh? what? can you you turn them up mate? can't hear them. what's that howling noise?

This same park hosts many other community events. Did you know that a dozen muskets doing 'rotating fire' drills (standing fire, kneel, reload, while the next wave walks thru, then fires, etc) can not be heard any where as far as the 'Easter amped up musos', and barely outside the park? A 'drug free event' - yet why are they loudly staggering all over town throwing up? Maybe they had too much 'Spirit of the Lord' ...

Did you know that when a symphony orchestra has to share the stage with 'rock thumpers', that the SO tech does the sound set up? (If we don't do it, we don't turn up!) And then the rockies say that they have never had better sound? :-)

Sigh ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:59 AM

Seeing the mention of weighting, if Wikipedia right on this?

he curves were originally defined for use at different average sound levels, but A-weighting, though originally intended only for the measurement of low-level sounds (around 40 phon), is now commonly used for the measurement of environmental noise and industrial noise, as well as when assessing potential hearing damage and other noise health effects at all sound levels; indeed, the use of A-frequency-weighting is now mandated for all these measurements, although it is badly suited for these purposes, being only applicable to low levels so that it tends to devalue the effects of low frequency noise in particular

?

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 06:19 PM

I always carry a TESCO bag filled to the brim with guitar leads, various lengths/colours etc.
None of them work. But it's great to see the musos trying...
Then they complain to me...My answer....
"You asked for guitar leads, I gave you guitar leads. You're obviously not a very good guitarist then, if you can't tell if a lead is working"
Oh Yes, and bags full of dud batteries.p..." Yes, no problem mate. Have a look in there, Should be one that works"
On the other hand. Go to the local shop and buy one!
(Oh and I've found a company that makes Gaffa tape....Looks the real deal...Doesn't stick to anything. Works every time)
As a gigging musician over 3 decades, The 2 groups of people at a gig who make all the difference are The Sound Crew, and the Security staff.
Befriend them, and all will be well.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 05:21 PM

87dBA was the requirement as the surrounding open land contained a Judges residence amomgst some other Stockbroker dealers residences....Oh how the super rich get treated eh....

Gutarists with dead PP3 Batteries and no spares are my pet hate along with - have you got a gtr lead ???.

Cheers everyone life is good in the fast lane.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 03:57 PM

"the output must not go above 84dB with a top limit of 87dB (A weighted)"

Haha! Music - 87 dBA !!!! Haha!

Big Fundy Fest (imported US Christian Rock Stars!) Easter Noise maker in City Residential Center Park - max 60 dBA! - well with 10,000,000 (approx, just counting speaker boxes!) Watts Bass Boost, easily exceeds 120 dBC on site, 100 dBC at road outside 85 dBC nonstop all weekend at houses - still reads 60dBA! .... all over town - heard 5 miles away ... :-) hard sleeping/thinking before the Council switched measurement to C scale - ever seen VHS cassettes DANCE on shelves (inside house, of course!) and things fall off shelves?!!!, 300 metres away? Feel air in chest vibrate like heart attack, inside house? And how many hours 'set up' do you think they need?!!!

Facebook comment by potential attendee "If my ears ain't ringing, then I want my money back"

Previous thread here on this money making bonanza ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 12:36 PM

.......then was the time that a large morris side (run by a very well known and, I am told respected, British folk musician) insisted on rehearsing in the hall whilst we were trying to carry out sound checks.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:33 AM

Another gripe.
Band member (instrument immaterial) "Can I borrow some Gaffa tape?"
Me..."When do I get it back?"
Band Member "Do you have 5 batteries for my various (unnecessary) foot pedals"
Me..."Yes"
Band Member "Can I have them?"
Me..."No"
Finally, Could drummers please not rehearse their seminal 15 minute solo, whilst I'm attaching microphones to their kit. A punch in the face often offends.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM

Open air concert - no nasty acoustics or reflections to worry about - the world is your oyster - you can do almost anything with the sound and output levels - The manager of the venue informs us that there would be 6 enviornmental Officers spaced around the venue to ensure that the overall sound level would be monitored and the output must not go above 84dB with a top limit of 87dB (A weighted) all the sound level meters would be collated and recorded to a central lap-top pc.

At the interval the Manager threatened me with dismissal as the levels had exceeded the stated maximum which had reached 104dB and they were in danger of losing their venue licence - the Assitant audio engineer explained to the irate Manager that there was no volume control to take down the level of the audience clapping/screaming/whstling with sheer excitement at the bands performance - this increased level was thankfully recorded on the lap top at the end of each song - my grateful thanks to a decent audio assistant.......what next I ask !!!!.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 12:57 AM

"I'm supposed to blow everybody out of their chairs to bring up the piano just for him. What can you do? You can't turn it up or it drown everything out. The mix is fine but he standing there expecting you to turn it up. So I turn up the volume of a knob on a channel I'm not using. Then I smile and shrug."

My brother once worked in a Big name hotel as a night porter. One night he had a rather strange lady check in - all sorts of requests. Room Service - kitchen closed - slapped a couple of pieces of bread etc together.

TV not working - well Adelaide TV closed at midnight in those days.

Curtains too short - tugged them 'Now they're longer ma'am'" - she was happy.

Went on till the police turned up asking if anyone had seen the escapee from the funny farm down the road ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 12:46 AM

I just fixed the sound on Ubuntu which has been playing up for months - it was distorted and crackly. I removed the 'Simultaneous Output to Audio Analog Stereo' output and reverted to just 'Internal Audio Analog Stereo' output.

Whee!

Yesterday i couldn't even spell 'Zound Inginar' - Now I are one!

I'll get me hat ...

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 22 Jan 11 - 05:56 AM

....oops! Ah the old harmoniser in the fold-back trick and the Davenport theatre - nostalgia isn't what it used to be! Do you remember the idiot they employed as a stage manager Bernard? A mate of mine said he wanted to throw him off the loading bay and another friend, who used to work part time as a follow spot operator, assured me someone already had.

Whilst we are into anecdotes, I once had a roadie testing a radio mic - 1,2 - 1,2 - 24, 13 , 65, 49....... Suddenly the back door burst open and a stranger came in asking if we were using a radio mic. Turned out that he was a bingo caller over the road and it was breaking through on his system.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Skivee
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:50 PM

BTW, for those who might not know him, Seamus Kennedy is a highly experienced (old) performer who knows how to use a microphone. If he wants to vary his vocal dynamics, he doesn't need that to be done by the sound engineer. Neither does the SE need to adjust what Seamus is doing.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: John P
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:01 PM

The first thing I do when I show up to play at a venue is make friends with the PA person. I've seen musicians offer abuse to the sound engineer and I've always thought it was the dumbest thing to do just before someone has your sound in his hands.

An old friend played in a rock band and usually used their own PA. He also did harmony vocals with a harmony machine. One show they had a singer-songwriter as an opening act who heaped abuse on them about the PA system. Lots of mean-spirited, foul abuse. Just before he started his first song, my friend pitch-shifted his vocal mike up by a quarter step. Instant karma!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Skivee
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:39 PM

8:24 Guest, I had much the same response when we were doing a New Years Eve show in a gym in Annapolis. The doorwatcher was told to not let in anybody during the sound check. He thought we were being needlessly cruel to the folks standing out in the cold, so we were amazed to see him letting people in anyway.
When our SE started exploring the acoustic properties of the room to find problem frequencies, he got some pretty harsh feedback.
Several folks dramatically clamped hands over their ears and started shouting about the noise.
I stopped that sound check, and told them that they were in early without our permission, that we knew it was painfully loud, that we needed this work done to insure the best sound during the actual concert, that our SE was doing his job, and that they could leave if they found it too much to bear; because the sound would not be lowered until we were satisfied with that aspect of the sound check.
We replaced the doorman.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:57 PM

What about this one, then...

Some years ago I was doing sound at a local theatre (Davenport, Stockport) for Maynard Ferguson and the band he was touring with at the time. Late 1980s, as I recall.

We were using a pair of Bose 802s for his foldback, and the Bose 1800 amplifier I was driving them with was clipping - but he wanted it louder...! He finally accepted that, as it was clipping, it wasn't going any louder... but I had complaints from the audience that he was far too loud. Nothing I could do, because he wasn't going through the main PA, and he wouldn't allow the foldback to be turned down! There was only his trumpet going through the foldback - he didn't want the band as well!!

He did explain that he'd got so used to playing big venues with loads of power that he couldn't manage without the monitors.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:41 PM

A band I sometimes play with, but not on this occasion, were playing a miners gala in Rotherham. During a break a neighbour came in to complain about the noise their drummer was making. They showed him the stage to demonstrate that they didn't actually have a drummer and went outside and, yes, you could distinctly hear a drummer. Turns out that Bruce Springsteen and his band were playing ..... 5 miles down the road.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 01:31 PM

A few decades back, Tommy Makem and Liam Clancy did a concert in Seattle. My wife and I went with a couple of friends.

It was held in an auditorium at the University of Washington that seated maybe five-hundred people. Like an amphitheater, not a bad seat in the house. And in actuality, a PA system was unnecessary. Good acoustics and the place was not that big.

But—the PA system was turned up so loud that it verged on the painful! At first, I thought that somebody had goofed and that it would be turned down, but no! After about the third song, we were thinking seriously about leaving. And several people did get up and leave. But we stuck it out. My ears rang for about three days afterward.

Good concert, I think. I don't remember much about it except how bloody loud it was.

I don't know what the sound folks were thinking, jamming the needles against the pegs like that. Bloody non compos mentis! Or, for that matter, Makem and Clancy for allowing it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

Told this story before...but still apposite.
Ceilidh at Festival...Doing FOH sound.
Drunk Morris dancer complains that he can't hear the Melodeon..
Point out to Drunk Morris dancer, that the tune is being played in Bb, on a Saxophone and the Melodeon player is at the bar, buying a beer and having a fag...(not needed on this tune)
Drunk Morris dancer isn't satisfied, and demands "More Melodeon"...
(resist temptation of punching Drunk Morris dancer....but only just)
He fell over half an hour later anyway..!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

I wonder what it is about our social make-up that makes it acceptable to tell a sound engineer they are doing a bad job?

We don't complain to a performer (mid song) if they are not very good. In fact we tend to feel supportive of them, and afterwards tell them they were very good and they should keep performing.

Most of us generally don't complain in restaurants if the food is bad. How many times have I said "yes everything is fine" to the waiter when really I'm thinking otherwise?! As a nation we are not known for our ability to complain.... except when it comes to sound engineers!

I wonder what it is about the make-up of sound engineers that doesn't like to receive said criticism? Ego dented? Hard work undermined? Stressed?
When was the last time someone told you that you were no good at your job?

The problem of bad sound can arise from two sources:
a) the sound engineer (there are lots of bad sound engineers)
b) circumstances outside the sound engineers control (turn down the brass band at once!)

If you are experiencing bad sound at a concert, its going to be one of the above. They are both very common.

The thing to do before complaining is to try to work out if it is the sound mans fault or not - and then try to make your complaint without disdain! The sound engineer will have been working really hard all day long to get to the point whereby you see him actually mixing the band, and there may well be many underlying factors that are contributing to the bad sound which you may not necessarily be aware of.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 10:39 AM

A funny story I recall from the days when we used to do the Royal National Eisteddfod of Wales... I was on the sound desk in the Main Pavilion for a brass band concert (!)... the director and another bigwig came into the sound control room during the performance complaining very vociferously about my poor sound balancing skills...

Apparently it was far too loud in the auditorium, and I had to do something about it at once!

Well...! I politely pointed at the sound desk, and showed them that all the faders were down! I explained that, as it was a brass band and didn't need any help, I was merely using a microphone for announcements, and no microphones were open during the performance.

If he wanted the band turning down, he must speak to the conductor, as there was nothing I could do!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 08:24 AM

Take a 2,000 seater auditorium - take two well known bands and start sound checking each in turn - first up is to get a rough general mix and send the auxs to the stage monitor mixing desk/operator....at this point you then need to fine tune all the different parameters necessary for a sound to satisfy the band as well as expected bums on seats - its at this particular moment that I received a sharp tap on the shoulder from a female who was telling me to sit down as she couldn't see the band - incredulous as it sounds she had entered the venue with her husband and seated themselves right behind me on a closed sound check period - I had great pleasure in having security eject them - another time - an old guy came up and asked "Why was it so loud" - again, it was sound check time - I told him it was so everybody could hear it !!! - he went merrily on his way quite happy with my flippant answer.....what on earth is security playing at when people can walk in willy nilly on closed venues at sound check time ???? anyone else got similar stories.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

John.....Tommorow....World Domination!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM

Ralphie,
       If "Yrsno" is anything to go by then you are probably on a deserved roll. We were featured on a Verity Sharp programme for which we were most grateful.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:40 AM

Thanks John...
And thanks to Fiona Talkington for remembering an old bloke!
It's probably quite sad for all readers, but, after 33 Years of working for BBC Radio, I feel pathetically humbled to hear myself on the Radio....Very strange.!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:15 AM

Ralphie,
          It was "Yrsno" from the cd, "Eloise".

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:15 AM

Hi John...Really??? Doing What?!
Nobody told me. I assumed they thought me demised!
Looking forward to the royalty cheque for 5p coming soon!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:48 AM

Ralphie,
       I heard you on "Late Junction", BBC Radio 3, last night.
Super, duper, Top Man!.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:25 AM

Mentioning no names, I used to do the occasional job for a sound hire company when the owner was away doing some "really" big bands - the sort that usually play in 80K seater stadiums. The last time I saw him he said he'd given it up and was concentrating on political conventions because he didn't get the shit from so called musicians.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 05:24 AM

Josepp
I'm sorry to hear what a poor time you have had. I can't believe it was from folk musicians as most of them I know would not act like that. However, I believe there is a different requirement for folk music than pop etc in that with folk music you want to hear the words of any song. I think that if you get a rigg from people who are used to doing pop they may not realise this.
I also think that with ticket costs rising people expect a better quality of sound. We attended 2 festivals this year where we were critical of the sound mix in the main tents. I'm not sure that either of them had any feedback system for customers to say what they thought.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:43 AM

josepp...I feel your pain!
I really do....
One small thing...Where do you get $300 a gig??? (It's never happened to me...The rest of it has!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 06:27 PM

Ye gawds! I've sung in places from coffeehouses that would seat, at most, thirty-five people and didn't need a PA system to places only slightly smaller than the vehicle assembly building at Cape Canaveral, including a bunch of outdoor venues. I'm behind the mic and I can't really hear what it's like out front, so I've always just trusted the sound engineer and concentrated on what I'm supposed to be doing.

Been at it for over fifty years and never had a problem.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: josepp
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM

Having been a soundman I have learned that a soundman is a peon to be abused by every musician who isn't happy with the mix. It is a thankless job. You try to get the bastards miked up right and they insist on doing some damn fool thing that will totally hose the sound and you cannot talk them out of it.

I once did sound for a jazz society whose union musicians did not feel they owed me a soundcheck beforehand and yet expected the sound to be perfect. When you tell them a soundcheck ensures that it will be, it's not in their contract.

Then there's the dipshit who has to fuck with the volume on his amp instead of having me turn it up in the monitors. Now he's drowning everyone out and I have to dial him down but that's not as bad as the guy who turns his amp down and now I can't bring it up high enough from the board for people to hear it. And the phrase, "If you need anything up or down, tell me and I will do it from the monitors--DON'T do it from your amps!" That translates to musicians' ears as: "powpueoqietqlnvn.zkxgnworiut23097243khwvpoiiyqertjnbgoihher"

Then there's the guys who fuck up their set and blame you--the soundman--YOU caused it. "I couldn't hear myself!" So you ask, "How can I know that if you don't say anything?" which translates to them as, "Please give me more of your uncalled-for abuse. I just can't get enough."

Then there's dickwads in the crowd who come up and tell you how they want the sound mixed or they flat out abuse you. "That sounds like SHIT!" I just say, "Oh, I'm sorry! Would you like to take over the board, I love to learn from a real professional." Then they tell everyone what a smartass you are and won't listen to reason. One time at an old-timers Dixieland jazz show, a guy comes up and says, "I can't hear the piano!" He was fucking 90! No exaggeration--he was 90 years old. I'm supposed to blow everybody out of their chairs to bring up the piano just for him. What can you do? You can't turn it up or it drown everything out. The mix is fine but he standing there expecting you to turn it up. So I turn up the volume of a knob on a channel I'm not using. Then I smile and shrug.

Now, most musicians have some degree of civility but, man, I got to tell you that there are some REAL fucking assholes out there. ASSHOLES! Then when their show's over--they're out of there while you have to pack up your board, your snake, your mikes and stands, your speakers and monitors, every cord and cable. Do they help? FUCK NO!

I think before you ever do a live set, you should be required to spend a year doing sound for other bands first. THEN you will know what it feels like when musicians expect you to shit miracles out of every goddamn orifice. Then you will know how thankless it is to be a soundman.

Quite frankly, I'll never do it again. I was getting paid $300 a pop and I still won't ever do it again. It was THAT bad.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,FloraG.
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 02:08 PM

Played at the Barge, Gillingham again this week. What a joy to be able to turn up to a pub and know that the PA is already there so we just need to transport our instruments.    The attentive sound man coped with me playing a quiet and my second loudest instrument - neither with DI.

The pub itself also has a large collection of folk instruments - but I've not been brave enough to turn up without instruments and just work my way round the room.

Can anybody else recommend venues that are as obliging.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Michael
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 09:12 AM

Those of you who have been to Stainsby Festival will know that they have brilliant PA driven by John Ramsay from EFX.

Mike

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Dave A
Date: 19 Jan 11 - 08:02 AM

FloraG-
Rob Ellmore is another folk sound engineer worth a mention.
He's always done us proud!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:44 AM

Why shouldn't folk be different?

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 07:16 PM

You don't have to put up with canned interval music at jazz or classical concerts. Why should folk be so different?

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST, Fido
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:43 AM

Tune up?

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:21 AM

Jack - we always play music at intervals. ( We've recently upgraded our equipement from a tape desk to a CD player). Barn dance intervalls tend to be longer than concert ones, and people like to hear a bit of background while tucking into supper and buying raffle tickets. However, we've found that tune sets are best as people are not concentrating on words.

At wadebridge festival the young man played Poozies Cds - so we could enjoy the music before the concert started and while buying pasties at the interval ( excellent pasties).

The Barge pub in Gillingham ( our local folk music pub ) plays a good selection of music at the interval - often including local artists. It gives us time to tune up and say hi to all our friends in the audience.

Long live good interval music.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 10:52 AM

Graham Bradshaw....Yes, agreed. Good ears, and a really nice bloke too.
Also agree with C-Flat.
What bands with egos don't understand, is that if I get grief during a sound check ("Oi. You at the back...GET IT RIGHT!") then, they're not going to have the happiest of gigs. To all artists out there, You all either play (or sing) one instrument....I, on the other hand, play the whole band.
Don't forget it!
Another plug for the Facebook group. Don't Piss Off The Sound Guy.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:32 AM

Two words spring to mind. Graham Bradshaw. If you want excellent sound, that's all you need to know.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 07:03 AM

Jack, how can you be distracted from what the artist is doing in the interval? Is it important for you to concentrate on them having a quick beer, going for a pee and selling a few CDs?
Tim (joking, honest!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Sound Engineers
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Nov 10 - 06:03 AM

Thing that always surprises me is when an artist starts ranting at the sound-man during sound-check.
I've acted as support to one-time "names", often in the twilight of their careers, who, presumably out of frustration at their reduced status, vent themselves at those around them.
I always likened it to insulting the waiter before you've had your meal. Not advisable.
On one particular occassion the sound engineer was having such a bad time at the hands of the head-liner, who wouldn't allow me to soundcheck until he was satisfied, (which wasn't goping to happen in this lifetime), that he pulled me aside and told me not to worry. "I guarantee you'll sound great" and "Fuck him", gesturing to the stage.
I thoroughly enjoyed the on-stage experience of quality monitoring and being in the hands of the sound guys. It's impossible to tell what's being projected when you're on stage, so you have to trust those at the desk and let them do their work.