BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 04:15 PM

children is plural. The s can only be possessive.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 01:33 PM

Just realised - It is the department belonging to the childrens clothes so I guess it is the childrens clothes' department!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM

I got the children's one wrong but, on reflection, I am a little confused. I agree that children, being the plural, would have the possesive adjective between the n and the s. For instance the children's clothes would indicate the clothes belonging to the children. What about a children's clothes department though, as in the department selling clothes that fit children? The apostrophe would be wrong in this case, would it not?

My brain hurts...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Saul
NPR still has a wonderful hour, heard here in the midwest on Sunday mornings, called "A Way With Words". Courtesy of KPBS in San Diego, it sounds similar to your late, lamented program.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 02:19 PM

Giok:
The photo you linked to would appear to have suffered a mastectomy, as only one tit was visible!

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:53 AM

"Would of" drives me batty.

Mario, don't feel bad; I got all of the commas, but didn't fare so well with those damned apostrophys.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: RichardP
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 07:50 AM

There's surely a ceratin and far from fine line between pedantry and inaccuracy as typified in the difference between "eats shoots and leaves " and "eats, shoots and leaves".

Let's look at more than one index some more.

Everyone is familiar with the index in a book. However what is it? Mathematically it is an array which comprises many entries each of which has (at least) two visible fields. One is a text string (such as a chapter title) which identifies a point in the book. The other is also a text string which identifies where in the book the first field occurs. This latter may appear to be a number, although it often does not. (Some may appear to be roman numerals sometimes they contain non-numeric characters). However it has no inherent mathematical properties which make it anything other than a string of characters. There is also another field in the array which is rarely (if ever) printed. This is the position within the array that each entry takes. Although not normally visible or acknowledged it is the index of the array that is itself the index.

We have two words with the same pronunciation and spelling but almost totally unrelated in meaning. The plural of the latter (hidden) index (in the English language) is unquestionably indices. It may be different in American and other foreign languages. It is also totally absent from the dictionary definitions referred to above.

I have no difficulty with the use of indexes for the plural of the index of a book. But indices is the only correct plural for the mathematical index.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: autolycus
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 04:44 AM

There's surely an uncertain and fine line between pedantry and accuracy (designed for true comprehension

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 05 - 04:30 AM

Tits like coconuts!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM

< pedant alert! >Correctly, the entry should read "eats shoots and leaves." No commas at all. When it reads "eats, shoots, and leaves," or "eats, shoots and leaves," pandas all over the world strap on their holsters. < /pedant alert >

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:44 PM

According to Prairie Home Companion, the joke goes:

A Panda Bear walks into a bar and sits at a table. The bartender calls over to him, "Whaddya want?" The Panda requests a sandwich. A few minutes later, the bartender brings a plate over with a sandwich on it and returns to his duties behind the bar. The Panda eats the sandwich, blots his mouth with a napkin, stands up and pulls a handgun, shoots the bartender in the shoulder, and runs out into the street--followed closely by a regular patron, who shouts after him, "Why???!!"
The Panda turns and says, "What?"
"Why??!! Why did you do this??!" responds the bar patron.
"I'm a Panda. Look it up."
"What?"
"I'm a Panda. Look it up." And the Panda departs hurriedly.
The bar patron goes back into the bar, goes behind the counter, and reaches for one of the series of the encyclopedias kept on a reference shelf behind the bar. (There are a number of such reference books kept in bars in the U. S., to settle sports bets and historical questions which might otherwise come to physical contests between some patrons.) He finds an entry for the Giant Panda: "A mammalian living in the mountains of China; subsists on bamboo; eats, shoots and leaves."
More or less, that's how it goes. Misplaced comma. Proofreading error. See?                   Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Dec 05 - 07:38 PM

"A die is a cube with the sides numbered 1-6 & used in games of chance." + with the sides arranged so that opposite sides always add up to seven.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 10:14 PM

So Guest Peter is to blame?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 01 Dec 05 - 07:19 AM

Q,

I know what I was looking at- clearly not the same text as you.


A die is a cube with the sides numbered 1-6 & used in games of chance.

The plural of 'die' is 'dice'


See below where the reference to 'indices' was taken from.


Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:55 PM

An example of recent change- index, pl. indices; becoming obsolete, indexes preferred in current dictionaries.

Indices are the entries in an index. Multiple collections of indices are indexes.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 10:18 PM

Mr Happy, you must have been looking at Wackypedia or the like. You disagree with both the OED and Merriam Webster.

OED- Index: pl. indexes, also index's and indices
Webster's- Index: pl. indexes or indices.

2. An index is a list arranged usu. in alphabetical order of some specified datum (as author, subject or keyword...
In a book it may be a list of page numbers; in a bibliography the author, date of publication, title, publisher, etc.
Other meanings to index, but this is the one dealt with most often.

The individual entries are never called indices.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:42 PM

I'm a 92% stickler, except that a case can be made for and against some of the examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:54 PM

GUEST, Mr. Happy,


"dice is plural of die- no rhyme nor reason!!"

So, "Two people diced today in a car crash."

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: wordfella
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:33 PM

Nigel

>>Or, "This is the Strong's house", which, as a label, I assume you would wish to add an apostrophe after "The Strong's" to show the ellision of the word 'House'<<

Nope. If the sign implies the house, it needs to be plurally possessive: The Strongs'.

But I don't like that, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 08:02 PM

'Indices are the entries in an index.

Multiple collections of indices are indexes. '





dice is plural of die- no rhyme nor reason!!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:33 PM

Nigel says: I suppose it depends what message they wish to put across.
It could be either:
"The Strongs live here" in which case I assume you wish to delete the apostrophe.
Or, "This is the Strong's house", which, as a label, I assume you would wish to add an apostrophe after "The Strong's" to show the ellision of the word 'House'

In the second instance, your sentence should read "This is the Strongs's house" and therefore you would want the sign to read "The Strongs's". However, such a sign traditionally denotes "The Strongs live here", so the sign should read "The Strongs" with no apostrophe at all.

The only way that the sentence "This is the Strong's house" would make sense is if the house had a single resident known as, say, Erik the Strong and if the locals referred to him as "the Strong".

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Joybell
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:09 PM

I was decimated when I first learned about that!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 07:01 PM

Appendix is another case where the latin plural is better replaced by an English plural, except in a few restricted uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:55 PM

An example of recent change- index, pl. indices; becoming obsolete, indexes preferred in current dictionaries.

Indices are the entries in an index. Multiple collections of indices are indexes.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Deda
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:34 PM

Re: Decimate. This is from the Roman army, where punishment for insubordination within a century (a group of about 80 men, originally 100 but never at full complement in reality) was that the soldiers themselves had to kill one tenth of their own number, the victims being chosen at random by the centurion, IIRC. So while it's true that the end result was only the loss of one tenth of the troops, its effect was more dreadful and more dreaded than the numbers might imply.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 05:57 PM

It'd make a difference if it was a family called "Strong" lived there,or a family called "Strongs".

.....................

Lost possessive pronouns being dangerous? Well, I can imagine a situation where it might be rather important to know whether it was "the terrorist's plan/bomb/hideway/hostages", implying just one single terrorist, or "the terrorists' plan/bomb/hideway/hostages", implying more than one.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 02:11 PM

Wordfella: Those unable to understand apostrophe rules usually employ the mark for all plurals. A good friend's housewarming gift was a beautiful sign (from a company online)reading "The Strong's." I'm trying to figure out how to retouch it.
I suppose it depends what message they wish to put across.
It could be either:
"The Strongs live here" in which case I assume you wish to delete the apostrophe.
Or, "This is the Strong's house", which, as a label, I assume you would wish to add an apostrophe after "The Strong's" to show the ellision of the word 'House'

As to the book title (mentioned earlier). I believe it was a PC version, as the joke I remember was:
On being asked an interview question "If you were not human, what animal would you like to be?" he replied "A panda."
When asked to explain, he stated that he'd heard that "A panda eats roots shoots and leaves".
It is the punctuating of that last sentence which gives rise to the title, and shows the panda as either a vegetarian, or a "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" type of guy.


CHEERS

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 01:54 PM

Mo the caller, 'could of' is also heard in America.
This departs from the subject of this thread, but here is Webster's Collegiate definition of dialect:
1. a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language.

By this definition, 'could of' is merely incorrect speech. But listening to myself on a tape, my 'could've' is mighty nigh 'could of' (but more 'could'uv')- sloppy, sloppy!.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 12:59 PM

The other day, I was talking with a colleague, and I said, "...irrespective..." He called me on it, and said that as I was saying it, his mind was finishing the word "ir-REGARDLESS," as so many people say. But a nanosecond later, he realized that I had used the correct word, correctly. And he thanked me for it, and we laughed.

Are we wandering off into some language pet peeves? I have a list.

Actually, I once sent a letter to NPR. THEY, of all people and organizations should be among the most scrupulous about language. I listed my top seven peeves. Never got a response from the ombudsman. But several months later, they started a new piece on language pet peeves that ran for a while on Saturday ATC. Course, it is gone, now. Ahh, those were the days.

I think a lot of the language degradation is because we are doing less reading. And often what we are reading is email and carelessly written web pages where grammar and good word useage are not always valued.

OK, just one. "I could care less." EERRRGGHHHH! If you COULD care less, than the matter under discussion concerns you, at least somewhat. What you REALLY mean is that you "couldN'T care less." That means that the matter is of no interest to you, whatsoever. I could go on, but I will exercise some self-control. Oh the temptation...

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:49 AM

Did the test, I got 67% Woo -Hoo, as Homer would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: wordfella
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 09:42 AM

Then there's the morphing of "all of a sudden" into "all the sudden," caused by sloppy speech and a decline in reading.

If you correct someone on an issue like this, you get a disgusted look and a "whatever."

I fire off emails to newspapers and television stations about this kind of thing, but I no longer let it affect my blood pressure.

It's fun comparing notes with Mudcatters.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Mo the caller
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 06:51 AM

When does usage stop being "wrong" and start being "dialect"? E.g. "could of" which we said but didn't write, in my London childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Nov 05 - 03:36 AM

" Sometimes the resulting confusion is merely amusing. Sometimes, it can be downright dangerous."

I challenge you to come up with a situation where a lost possessive apostrophe can be even inconvenient, unless the writer has taken the greatest care to cause ambiguity.

As for the Eighth Army, that kind of screamerese leads to such ambiguities so frequently, that our own dear Frank Muir made quite a secondary career from publishing books of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:55 PM

I just heard an ABC interviewer say "irregardless". Rather fond of that word. We use it on each other all the time. Didn't expect it on the ABC though, irregardless. Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 11:35 PM

Ek? Ek! Where did they come from?
Ecdysis? Ecstasy!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 10:43 PM

EK-cetera.

EK-spresso.

(Sheesh!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 09:19 PM

Ivor, 1970's is a quote from the book '70's is my addition, since many abbreviate the decade that way. Now if a person is in his 70's. there is no ' in front. BUT, see the following.

I looked in the "Harbridge College Handbook" (and found: the 1970's OR the 1970s.
two B's OR 2 Bs
his 7's or his 7s
the VFW's or the VFWs
the &'s or &s

So take your choice. I guess this applies to cd's and cds etc.
Of course, when one submits an article to a journal, their *'archys' will change it according to their predilections.

*'Archy'- The re-incarnated cockroach who typed out "Archy and Mehitabel." for Don Marquis.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 08:21 PM

A hyphen in "eighth army" wouldn't make any difference at all to the doubtless intentional ambiguity. And a comma would make no sense, since it's the push that "bottles up" (ie partially traps) the Germans. The relevant change for a spoilsport would be to insert a hyphen in "bottles-up", thus indicating that "bottles" is a verb here, not a noun.

I'm a bit sceptical about the provenance of the headline. It's not hard to make "facsimile" joke pages. But I'd be pleased to know it was in fact genuine, and not that surprised either.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:59 PM

"Push" in this context is a noun, and GS's comma is quite inappropriate.

The problem is the failure to recognise "eighth army" as a compound adjective and hyphenate it, which would have removed the ambiguity - but what a pity that would have been.

A medium-term forecast forecasts what will happen in the medium term.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:48 PM

I have a facsimile copy of the paper with the headline as I printed it...not sure what you are thinking of but putting rear would not make sense anyway. The headline obviously should have read EIGHTH ARMY PUSH, BOTTLES UP GERMANS. which when you read the article explains how they surrounded a large group of Germans...not their rears! or rear but the whole bunch.
Best wishes, mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:40 PM

Actually it's supposed to have been: "EIGHTH ARMY PUSH BOTTLES UP GERMANS REAR"

If this headline actually made it into a published paper, the wordplay would undoubtedly have been intentional on the part of whoever wrote it.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:22 PM

My favourite 'missed comma' of all time was the Newspaper headline in UK in the Second World War...it read:-
EIGHTH ARMY PUSH BOTTLES UP GERMANS.   Doen't the mind boggle at the thought of that happening.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: wordfella
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 06:20 PM

Those unable to understand apostrophe rules usually employ the mark for all plurals. A good friend's housewarming gift was a beautiful sign (from a company online)reading "The Strong's." I'm trying to figure out how to retouch it.

The most extreme example I've ever seen, right here in Fulton County, Illinois, was a hand-lettered ad: "Melon's." A hundred feet farther: "Cide'r."

Honest to God.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 05:07 PM

Editors and writers' guides? Are they the ones who have decided that decimate (reduce by ten percent) has the same meaning as devastate (lay waste)?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:51 PM

One reason for the grocer's apostrophe and so forth can be that someone in a hurry has made a mistake. The other one, which I suspect is very widespread, is that the cunning grocer puts in the mistakes deliberately, knowing that every now and again a couple of pedants will be walking past, notice the error, notice the notice, and a purchase will be prompted.

As for possessive apostrophes: "They add absolutely nothing to sense or clarity" but "If you get marginal cases where the meaning could be ambiguous..." (Paul Burke). In other words that first bit is not actually true.

George Bernard Shaw huffed and puffed about this, and insisted on the offending apostrophes being removed from stuff he wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:46 PM

Q. Could you say why, in your wonnerfully learned and accurate disquisition, you had to put "1970's" and "70's".
From the rest of your piece, I don't find the logic in the apostrophes.
Another I've noticed is "CD'S"

If we feel strongly enough about it, we needn't lie down and say helplessly,"The tide of opinion is too strong."
I've recently got fed up with broadcasters using "that begs the question", so, rather than accept the supposed inevitable, I fired a couple of emails. Now bbc Radio 4 & 5 have reverted to "raising the question" and even begun using "posing the question". Reeeesult.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Joybell
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 04:02 PM

We had terrible trouble persuading a sign making company not to put an apostrophe before the "s" in "The Hildebrands". It was to 'stand alone like that out'side the hou'se.
There are 'so many 'sign's out here on the Grocer's, the Butcher's, al'so on truck's and car's. I under'stand that it's an 's thing. 's's's'e's have attracted the apo'strophe's and it's 'so 'strong, thi's force, that there's no 'stopping them now. Cheer's and happine's's.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:24 PM

If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

???

Food, at a guess

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:24 PM

Yot find me a humanitable and I'll eat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Seiri Omaar
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 03:13 PM

Just keeping things accurate, Don. Didn't mean to get on your case. :-)

Cheers, Seiri.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Nov 05 - 02:20 PM

Hey, get off my case, folks! I wasn't trying to give anybody a Latin lesson as I don't speak the language (obviously). It just looked to me that GUEST was assuming that "modem" is a Latin word, which it is not. Now, pig latin, on the other hand. . . .

English is a wonderful language, provided you can manage the subtleties. For example:

". . . one stewardess, two stewardi; one blouse, two blice. . . ."                                                                     —Shelley Berman

If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?

Don Firth