BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers

Subject: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: saulgoldie
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:43 PM

Well, it has been settled. G-d help us.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/12/MNGEAG6SI84.DTL

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 05:51 PM

Well, there is really no doubt about why the United States of America believes in and executes (pun intended) executions. Has nothing whatever to do with anything besides revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: number 6
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 06:50 PM

I'm certainly against the death penalty (beleiving violence begets violence) but my heart certainly is not crying over this decision ... I'm crying over victims of violence, about a society that is obsessed with violence .... Tookie is certainly one guy who knew about revenge.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 07:32 PM

My point in this case is the same as it was with that woman in Texas to whom then-Governor Bush denied clemency. In both the cases there was NO possibility of their ever being on the street again, quite outside the changes in them that had taken place.

Death penalty advocates generally cite two reasons for capital punishment: 1) That that individual will never commit crime on the innocent again and 2)That their deaths at the hands of the law will serve as a deterent to other violent minds.

My response:
As to #1: Incarceration without possibility of parole serves the same aim.
As for #2: Since homicide stats are not borne out in states with versus states without, that is not a valid reason.

To my mind, surely rehabilitation is a worthy aim. When the person then goes on to try to educate and warn youngsters as to avoiding certain life's paths, revenge and fear of 'losing face' seem to be about the only reasons left to kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,A
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 07:51 PM

Tookie Williams is getting the same thing he gave. And while in prision, his continuing attacks on guards and other prisoners did not help his case. He threw acid at more than one prison guard. He was still advising the 'Crips' while writing "childrens books". Nice try with the books but not enough.

If he had just shown some remorse for his actions. But no, he wouldn't/couldn't and it is rather obvious an apology would never take place. "Revenge and losing face" is not the issue. The jury system has worked and the many appeals said the same thing.

The death penalty is not a real concern to those who do not take lives in a vicious and heartless manner. It can bother those who think that justice is a secondary consideration. Does it solve anything? Probably not, but it does end the expensive process of housing a murderer who is at least having a lifestyle (of sorts) that his victims were prevented from having.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM

An individual may commit certain acts which are detrimental to his society but in a different time and society, those same acts might in fact be beneficial to the species.

That is however a perspective that exceeds the vision of any living judge, govenor or common man.

Sorry Mr. Williams, although you lived by your credo "Ya gotta do what ya gotta do", our current laws in this society has found you guilty unto death, whether you are guilty of the original charges or not.

Next time Tookie, although I do not believe there is one, try not being a minority. Yes I know there are statistics that show the death penalty rates are the same for blacks and whites, but I woudn't stake my life on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM

Well, well, well...

Yeah, seein' as this man has done so much in fighting gang violence in the past several years a reasonable man might stop and ask, "Hey, is this man a value to society?" That would be a reasonbale question...

But beyond the rersonablness of this man's life there are those who want revenge... The Bible teaches us that revenge is God's reponsibliity and not ours...

Here is a amn who is positively impacting more folks than possibly any elected official, yet their sins are glossed over, covered up or just denied and denied...

Do I condone what Tookie is convicted of doing? Heck no, I don't!!! But in these days and times when American needs so much more moral leadership, it is at least as criminal for the state to take the life of a man who has for so long spoken of non-violence... Much like Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy spoke of non-violence...

Yeah, Tookie is not being executed for the crimes that he was convicted of some quarter of a century ago... He is being executed because he stands for non-violence...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Beer
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 08:54 PM

I never did appreciate Jessie Jackson. Now I think even less of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Arne
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:03 PM

Guest,A:

And while in prision, his continuing attacks on guards and other prisoners did not help his case. He threw acid at more than one prison guard. He was still advising the 'Crips' while writing "childrens books".

And your source for this "information" is .... __________?

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:05 PM

"Stanley Tookie Williams, co-founder of the Crips street gang in Los Angeles over 30 years ago, is facing execution on December 13.   Over the past 12 years, Williams has publicly apologized for his past, written a series of award-winning children's books to keep kids out of gangs, initiated a Peace Protocol that led to gang truces in cities such as Newark, New Jersey, and been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize."

Interesting Reading

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Arne
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:14 PM

Guest,A:

The jury system has worked...

It depends on what the meaning of "worked" is.

Just out of curiosity: Do you think the jury system "worked" in the O.J. Simpson case?

FYI, the advent of DNA evidence has managed to pull quite a few people off of Death Row for whom the "jury system ha[d] worked" (not to mention the vaunted double-check and safeguard, the appeals system).... And for some reason, gummints are reluctant to "re-open" cases where the accused have already been put to death ... saying that the cases are moot and that a further examination of the evidence wouldn't have any legal effect and therefore can't (or shouldn't) be done ... because the DEAD CAN'T BE MADE UNDEAD!

FWIW, I don't think that Williams ought to get any special consideration because of his books; I'd think it fundamentally unfair to say that only those with a talent for writing (assuming he had one; displaimer: I haven't read his stuff) should have the opportunity for clemency. I just think the whole thing sucks.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:15 PM

Bobert, putting tookie in the same column as MLK and RFK... that is a stretch even for me.

I believe there is redemption in our prison system.
There is redemption in the prison system when big money or big institutions are involved.

GWB as govenor of Texas did in fact stay the execution of one death row inmate. The convicted murderer W saved was a former CIA agent.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 09:55 PM

Stretch or not, Donuel, can you point out any elected fedweral offical who has had such a positive influence on kids who might be headed toward a life of the gang???

That was my point...

I'm just looking at the value of this man today... Not 25 years ago... But today!!!

Hey, ain't 'nuff positive role models out there...

And that is why I compared this man to MLK and RFK... They, too, were role modles with lots to say about non-violence and social justice...

I ain't sayin' that Tookie is an equal but he, at least for the last decade, has been on the correct side of the equation...

This country doesn't need loose any more voices of reason...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: pdq
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:00 PM

When somebody says goodbye to me
I'm sad as I can be,
But when I think of Tookie boy
I'll surely shout with glee

"Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry
Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!"

The funeral train that takes you
Away from me,
No words can tell how glad it makes me

"Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry
Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!"

When they stick the needle in
You know it won't hurt
But when the relatives see you twitch
They'll surely want to blurt (out)

"Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry
Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!"

Watch for the mail, I'll never fail,
If you don't get a letter
Then you'll know you're in Hell

"Oh, toot, toot, Tookie don't cry
Toot, toot, Tookie good bye!"

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM

The abomination we see today is that idiot Schwarzenegger setting himself up to judge Williams. He scheduled a clemency hearing, but doesn't have the intellectual wherewithal to understand the issues in front of him. He sees the polls. That's all. Will this execution get him reelected?

Letting him live isn't going to hurt anybody and it does benefit a lot of people whose voices aren't being heard right now. Killing him removes all options. Look at this face. You're going to be seeing a lot of folks looking like that, and if Ahnold wants some riots in his large cities, he is inviting them right now.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:09 PM

George Bush won't let Ahnold pardon Tookie.

He has the Gov under his thumb in Payback for getting Davis thrown out and him elected.

I don't care how many people he has murdered. I don't care if he laughed and joked about the dying gurgles of a military man he shot in the back twice trying to make a living honestly in a C store.

9 childrens books and several online Nobel P{eace Prize nominations is more than sufficient to make up for those pre meditated, cold blooded murders.

I don't care if the gang he founded is still murdering people, he is still redeemable.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:24 PM

You absolute clueless morons who make this evil prick the victim have obviously not seen the picture or read the text describing the poor young girl's face he blew off in a robbery. I don't see anyone here lamenting for her or the people that suffered from her loss of life.

The mistake is here is that this evil jerk was allowed to live so long on death row and that he wasn't executed more than 20 years ago. And the foolish lawyers trying to save him should fucking fry in hell.

What total far-left liberal bullshit!

Let the law be carried out quickly and good riddance.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:27 PM

When you put it that way, Andy, I must presume that your tongue is firmly embedded in your cheek. Ghost writers are easily hired and Nobel Peace prize nominations are quite easily obtained, though the list isn't made available until about 50 years have passed. Take a look. The point is, he's working at making a difference and he has succeeded.

As a resident of a state with a very high execution rate I'm appalled at how easily these publicly sanctioned murders down here in Texas slip by and we barely notice them. I see the case in California as a great example of how politicians are sticking to their "principles" and paying close attention to poll numbers but completely miss the point of what is going on. This guy was a nasty piece of work, but he got smart and starting trying to make things right. Now Ahnold wants to try to play word games and suggest that if he doesn't apologize for the murders he says he didn't commit, then how can he be redeemed? Tookie may have committed other murders and been innocent of these. He may have committed all of them. He was a nasty man who is in prison for the rest of his life but he's trying to make a difference. The death penalty stinks. And this is a classic reason why it should never have been resumed.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM

Just what I'd expect from a prick like you, Martin...

No, make that assh*le prick...

You'd roll yer own mother unner the bus, jerk...

But I hope you and yer little, no make that *very* little, jerk off friends get yer selves a big ol' bowl of jollies...

Meanwhile, yer jerkoff president has killed motre innocent folks in the last 3 years than Tookie couild have if he lived to be a thousand years old...

Opps, sorry to interupt yer Bushite circle-jerk...

More bklood on yer hands than there's time to undue... Glad yer think you7 are a Jew 'cause guess what... In my Faithym dumbass stuff is accountable for at the end of the game and youm along wityh all the pricks out there who think they arer so smug and righteuos, would rot in Hell...

Haver a nice rest of the Hellish life you have created for yourself right here in this life...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: number 6
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:43 PM

What should Saddam Hussein's fate be ?? I don't think you would find too many people crying over his execution. Even if Saddam also chose to co-write some children's books.

Tookie is/was responsible for a lot of violence in his life time. Many innocent people were his victims. More, much more, than the 4 he was charged with. He lived in a violent society and now he pays the price to that society. Nobody is crying for the victims.

As I mentioned, I'm against the death penalty, ... if clemency was granted to him, I feel all inmates on death row should be granted clemency.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:51 PM

Well, if you don't believe in murder...then don't do it. Very simple.

Governments and governors should be included in that.

Human beings are not endowed with the authority to premeditatedly and deliberately end the lives of other human beings, in my opinion...specially not when they themselves are in absolutely no personal danger from those others at the time. It's a despicable thing to contemplate and a despicable thing to do. It's the act of the powerful against the completely powerless. It's stupid. It's unnecessary. It's an act of deep cowardice and ignorance. It denies even the possibility of redemption in another human being. If there were such a being as Satan, then how pleased he would be by that! How pleased he would be by the withholding of forgiveness, the withholding of mercy, and the application of stern and unyielding judgement upon a prisoner. How he would relish the fear, the despair, the suffering.

Jesus never recommended executing anyone, did he? There is an interesting dichotomy between the Old Testament and the New. The difference between "no mercy" and "complete mercy". Christians pick whichever book suits their basic inclinations when they use it to back up their own desires. The merciless can find plenty of passages in the O.T. to feed their unholy hunger for blood...all of which were repudiated by Jesus later. They can just ignore those aspects.

Jesus tried to reform an ancient, primitive, and hard-hearted faith. He was a Jew. He was not accepted by the mainstream Jewish church of his time. Would mainstream Christianity accept him today? I wonder. I know a lot of them wouldn't.

The point is not whether Tookie was or is a "good man" or not. The point is that murder, all murder, is wrong. Shall we cancel one murder out with another? Who made some man in a uniform or a judge's robe into God? If they did, they made a false god in the image of their own wrathful fear and judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Beer
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:52 PM

The death penelty doesn't stink. He get's what he deserves. in fact to many get off when the should be hung. To many times young ladies are brutely murdered and yet the the murderer in a few years are set free. Were all pussies. If a child is mutilated, tie a rope around their balls and drag them down the street. Then hang them. Their nothing but human garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: heric
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:55 PM

The death penalty stinks. And tookie, with his online Peace Prize nominations, lending his name to "just say no to violence" ads, and ghost-written books, and made-for TV movies, and his absolutely awesome PR team, all of which cost him nothing, does not deserve to manipulate the Governor to go against all law and procedure of over two decades, but it was a DAMNED good shot. Good on him.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM

Here's the thing. The point isn't whether or not Tookie did it or didn't do it. Even if he did the crime, he shouldn't be executed, because the death penalty makes us no better than the murderers that we execute.

Murder is murder, whether it is committed by an individual or the state.

End the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM

If you're heartily willing to kill...then you have the nature of a murderer. Some have it. Some don't. The two will never see it the same way.

The desire to kill arises out of fear. Nothing else. Just fear.

And whose tool is fear? God's or Satan's?

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:59 PM

bobert

So who else beside Saddam, Hitler, and tookie do you idolize?

I consider your response for someone who can't spell or express himself with anything more than a bunch of jumbled slang a total success of having completely your chain.

You got a lot of people laughing at you bobert. first you defend Saddam and now tookie.

There isn't a day that goes by that you undermine America and there isn't a day that goes by that you aren't one of Mudcat's most complete jerks.

Bullseye, moron.

Subject: The Death Penalty sucks
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:03 PM

It does stink. And so does the politician and the society that thinks the public execution of anyone is the proper way to behave. I don't think Saddam should be executed. I think he should rot in prison for the rest of his natural life, but I don't think he should be executed.

Bush is worst of all. He declared today that 30,000 Iraqis had died so far in this war of his. 2100 American troops were collateral damage, apparently. The Iraqis and Americans are paying an expensive price so Bush can one-up his daddy. You don't think there's blood on his hands? But I wouldn't execute Bush, either. I'd let him rot in prison the rest of his life, too.

Maybe Bush should read some of Tookie's books.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: number 6
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:05 PM

Actually it was a pretty pathetic PR job, typical of a violent manipulative thug ... he should have confessed to his murders, all of them ... asked for redemption and forgiveness. That would have left a more plausible, honest, earnest impression on society.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:09 PM

LOL! Predictable. What would we do without these unresovable philosophical differences to keep our hands busily typing and our minds raging on?

Doesn't it feel GREAT to be right ALL the time?

I know it makes ME feel just wonderful! I bet it does you too!   Mmmm...boy...so superior. I get thrills thinking how society is bolstered up and defended by my wisdom and sanity in the face of the idiots who don't see it MY WAY.   

(ha! ha! I'm being a bit satirical here, folks)

I figured that Don Firth was your perfect marriage partner, Martin, but now I'm leaning toward Bobert instead. Whaddya think? An idea whose time has come?

Think of it. Would you bother coming here if everyone agreed with you? Where would be the fun in that? Where would be the challenge? Why even bother? You should thank Jehovah, Martin, that there are all these "liberals" here...to keep you entertained. You love this place, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM

What if he didn't do it???

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM

Bobert, I think you are the one living a hellish life cause you can't stand things the way they are. You whine and piss and moan about everything. Then you say someone in the majority has created a hellish life for themselves.

Obviously you are on the side of Jesse Jackson and other esteemed humantarians and adulterers who think getting clemency for a murderer will gain esteem for them.

He "bragged to several people about killing the victims" Suppose one of them was related to you? Would you still be a wimp?

How many thousands of innocent people have been killed and continue to be killed by the gang that he co-founded and by the gangs that his creation spawned?

LA Times: Williams Still Leads Crips. San Quentin leaders dispute the death row inmate's assertion that he has changed his life.

In 1971, the use of the word 'Crip' had become so common among the Avenues Cribs that it became an acceptable name for the gang. Meanwhile, Raymond Washington and his collection of young gang members influenced other area youth gangs resulting in the formation of many Crip sets. Some of these sets included Avalon Garden Crips, Eastside Crips, Inglewood Crips and Westside Crips. Crips gangs were violent and constantly expanded their turf. Because of their aggression, several rival gangs joined forces as a gang collective called the Bloods. They adopted the color Red as their representative color. A fierce rivalry between these two gangs existed throughout the 1970's and 80's. By the early 1980's, Crips gangs were heavily involved in the drug trade that they commenced an expansion throughout the United States to sell a new drug product called "Crack". Throughout the 1980's and 1990's the Crips developed intricate networks and a respected reputation with other gangs across America and neighboring countries.

Development

During the 1980's, several Crip gangs (and Bloods) developed in a Central American Country known as Belize (formerly British Honduras). These gangsters migrated heavily to the United States during the late 1980's, especially throughout the West Coast and East Coast States like New York, New Jersey, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. In 1989, several large Belizean families arrived in New York in the neighborhood of Harlem. The youth from these families, and some adults, were members of the Crips Gang in Belize. They created the Harlem Mafia Crips in New York City and helped establish several other Crip gangs such as the Rolling 30's Crips, 92 Hoover Crips and Rolling 60's Crips by 1995. During the late 1990's, Crip gangs were well established in New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, Georgia, Connecticut, Florida, Pennsylvania and other East Coast regions.

Crip members initiate into the gang by committing a crime in front of gang witnesses. The initiation process is called 'Loc'ing'-In. Female members have the option to commit a crime or become Sexed-In (Sex with several older members). Crips on the East Coast wear blue and clear beads or blue and white beads around their neck but mostly blue jeans and a white shirt. East Coast Crips affiliate with the Folk Nation gangs and have adopted the Folk Nation Symbols. They are enemies with the Bloods.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:14 PM

You know what I'm saying? God laughs at all of us. We're self-important fools much of the time. But...we all have some real goodness in us too, some real possibilities. And so, God loves us. How can Love not love? It just does.

Even if we do totally disagree about important matters.

And no, I do not believe capital punishment is a good idea or a smart idea either. I woudn't want it done to me. I generally don't do to others what I don't want done to me. Seems simple enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:16 PM

Whether he did it is irrelevant. The death penalty is wrong, and so is evey execution, whether the person is innocent or guilty.

The death penalty is wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Indefensible under any circumstance. Just like torture.

This ain't that tough, folks. The only thing that "complicates" things regarding things like torture and the death penalty in peoples' minds are these horrific appeals to humans' basest instincts, not their best ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:18 PM

You, Old Guy, are not in the majority...

How do you respond to that??? Yeah, opinion polls are showing more and more Americans agi8nsts the death penalty...

What are you gonna do... Move to Afganistan, where you canm get the death pernaly for writing an article the says that woman deserve to vote???

Well, go on... I'll purchase the airline ticket fir ya'....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:21 PM

Seems to me like almost nobody can stand things "the way they are", Old Guy. Only...different people find different aspects of the way things ARE to complain about, that's all. Depending on their personal slant.

99.99 % of people are fairly habitual complainers, in my opinion. Myself included.

The way to eliminate vicious gangs in neighborhoods is to greatly raise the standard of living and education of the people in those neighborhoods. That's complicated. It takes quite a bit of time. Impatient people would rather just keep killing the "bad people"...just like the impatient people in the criminal gangs do.

A "bad person" is someone who is getting in YOUR way in some manner. It's a matter of personal prejudice. The worse educated and more deprived your life has been, the less you are in a spot to make intelligent judgements about other people and situations. Ignorance and poverty breeds more ignorance and poverty.

So what are you gonna do? Just kill them all? Or imprison them all?

Good luck, charlie. You'll never have enough prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:42 PM

What LH said...

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:00 AM

Well he's gone now, and is this world any better for his going? No; in a way it is worse, because we are all diminished by his "legal" murder.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:42 AM

I have to agree with you, Giok. Rejoicing in Tookie's execution would make me no different (as a person) to the Palestinians rejoicing in the streets after 9/11.

It's nothing to do with legality - the execution was legal; both the letter and the spirit of the law were observed.

Rather, it is to do with morality and ethics, and the law is very distant from that, it serves a different purpose. Nevertheless,
"When life you have taken, no matter the reason,
the man that you were, you no longer can be".

"Thou shalt not kill" has a full stop after it. Not a comma and "...except...".

What Tookie did was abhorrent legally and morally. What the state did to Tookie was legal. That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:56 AM

There would have been no "he might kill again" if he got life w/o parole. The reason for killing him was revenge, pure and simple. This emotional sentiment lives in our reptile brain. Presumably, humans have "evolved" somewhat beyond that level of consciousness. (Of course, some have not. And some still do not accept evolution as fact, but that is another thread.)

Most of the industrialized nations of the world have banned the death penalty. Look at the list of countries that have not, and ask yourself if you like being among that crowd:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

And what about all those who have been through the system and all its appeals to be miraculously found not guilty by new means of evidence? How many were executed anyway who were innocent of any crime? Are a few such cases reasonable collateral damage?

Let's hope there are no riots. Let's also hope that the Governator has signed his own political death certificate. I am embarassed (as a American) and pained that so many people still think that execution is a legitimate part of the judicial system.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:30 AM

Of course I'm against death penalty for many reasons but what amazes me most about the US system is the extremely long delay between the crime and the final death penalty. This delay is longer than the usual 'life' sentence in Germany.

Youths (up to 18, or even up to 21 in some cases) get at most ten years even for the most brutal of crimes. Adults get most times a life sentence for murder which is under review after 12 to 15 years. In normal cases (not a particular brutal murder and not a multiple murder) the offenders come free after 12 to at most 20 years. Of course, if the person still is considered dangerous or if the murder was exceptionally brutal (let's say at the end of a prolonged rape and torture) 'life' can mean life, but even in thes cases, the murderer would come out when being really old and unable to do any physical harm.

The US system ensures that the murderer lives in prison about as long as 'life' would be in many countries of Europe. Then, finally, when he has had enough time to really become a different and probably better person and even truly rues what he has done and is no longer any real threat, then is the perfect moment to finally kill him.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:34 AM

That's because American lawyers like to make as much money as possible through endless appeals.We are going the same way in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:37 AM

Flamenco Ted...

A little wake up. A large number, the majority of death penalty appeals are pro bono. Think for a moment, dear fellow, Where would some guy or gal on death row get the cash to pay a lawyer. I worked for a small firm which did a lot of civil rights pro bono, and in these days of de-funding of civil rights work the firm went out business. Now, some on the right who beleive in a market place of rights, will chear at this. However, in light of the number of post humus aquitals of people exicuted, and in light of the number of peole who decades on death row, were proved innocent, it behoves those same folks to ask, is it really a good idea to watch civil rights lawyer go bankrupt.
Well, in fact, most innocent folks on death row are either a minority or poor or both, so many who lead the party of the right can't emagine needing a lawyer, having no money, and being on trial for your life.
I noticed how the same folks who beat up on the lawyers ( Rush Limbow... ) suddunly find a lawyer's number when they screw up or are accused of one thing or another. Rush became a big fourth amendment advocate for a short period, when HIS drug dealing was uncovered by a search which he felt was unfair.
So, beat up on the lawyers, they'll still love you when you need them, pay them or not. The same folks who rail at lawyers getting rich ( HA! ) say nothing, often about the insurence industry and the pharmaceutical industry who drive up the cost of medical help until this nation ( USA ) speaks of rationing medical care, while turning Doctors and Lawyers against each other, because most folks need to sue their docotors to pay for their treatment...
What has this to do with Tookie's death? Well, these days, the right has declared war on the justice system, both civil and criminal justice. Funny thing about rights... you don't miss them until their gone. Stand up for folks like Tookie, and in the end, you might be standing up for yourself, maybe not on death row, but in some hospital ward when the doctor's administration, with their insurence company accountant, shakes their head and tells you, sorry mate... we can't afford to save your life.
Yeah, blame the lawyer then...
lor

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:46 AM

Lionel Hutz at your service........

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: SunnySister
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:13 AM

Saul, very well stated. I did not sleep well last night thinking, since I live in California, that a man's death was on my conscience. I am not saying he did or did not do the murders. I am saying that life without parole would have allowed for possible mistakes in the system and for the state of California to not murder and seek revenge in the name of its citizens.

I can only imagine what those prison guards felt like when Tookie Williams tried to help them find a good vein they could use... what good did his death do? What deterent?

I did not want this-
SunnySister

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:21 AM

Every time I find myself getting mad enough or outraged enough to wish that a particular convicted killer will get the death penalty, I realize all over again why we ought not have the death penalty. My LOGICAL position (and my moral position) is that we ought not have the death penalty at all.

If emotion can carry me past that position on one case, but not another, how can I extrapolate from my own experience to conclude that ANY jury, judge, appeals court, or politician can make an objective decision? I believe that as humnan beings, we CAN'T be entirely objective about it.

And therefore, if for no other reason, "fairness" cannot actually occur.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:51 AM

Sunnysister, did you sleep well thinking about any of the victims of Tookie and the gang of thugs called the Crips? I think they deserve some thought at this time also.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:59 AM

Dear Flamco Ted:
Hutz is painted rather broadly. I would rather think that Horace Rumpole more accuratly defines the defense bar, he is, after all, the immage in the dream of a lawyer rather than a rather tallented cartoonist.
Thine, m'luv

lor

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Alba
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:07 AM

Well he may be gone...."legally murdered" and the Crips are still there and after waiting for 24 years in Death Row to be executed he is dead. For 24 years he wondered when....that is a Life sentence by my thinking.
Victims Families may feel a little better that he was executed but really at the end of it all an eye for an eye only makes two people blind.
For or against it, the Death penalty is as violent an act as the Murder that brought about the sentence.

If hate caused one to kill then hate is the driving force to want the killer dead.
Hate....pure and simple.
Hate is a festering sore in the Heart and I wonder if killing the object of that hatered results in healing that festering sore.
I suspect any relief for the Victims Families that Williams is dead may only be temporary.
Their next thought may be....his death was too quick, too humane.
What is done is done but each time it is done we as a Society are no better for it in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: SunnySister
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

To answer you, guest with no name, I thought about the victims and their families- I know you meant those poor people who were murdered and their families, and of course I definitely thought about them. I also thought about those guards who cared for Tookie and had to administer the lethal dose of chemicals. I tried to think about it all.

Just because I am against capital punishment doesn't mean I stick my head in the ground and ignore the pain of the victims- all the victims. I, personally, am a supporter of life without the possibility of parole. I am not pro-criminal, however, I am anti-violence and against killing. Tookie Williams was murdered this morning. The State of California killed him for the citizens of this state. I find that to be barbaric to the extreme.

Revenge or murder, you call it what you like. I am opposed to violence of any kind and this makes me sick. It won't bring back the murdered loved ones, it does not bring peace or comfort- it just ends one person's life who learned from his horrible mistakes and wanted to teach young people not to follow his path into violence.

I am explaining my thoughts from my previous posting. I cannot change your mind, no-name guest, and neither can you change mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tookie: Say Yer Prayers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:16 PM

How does being against the legalized death penalty equate to NOT sympathizing with crime victims???

I doesn't. We ALL sympathize with crime victims. It's so ridiculously obvious that why would it need to be said? We are all deeply upset and outraged at crimes perpetrated on innocent people.

The only thing you are disturbed about, Guest, is that we do not share your emotional need for vengeance on the criminal to the extent that you would like us to.

I do not believe that vengefullness is a helpful emotion. It's the emotion of a simple-minded animal that cannot think, but can only react to its own pain by lashing out at someone else. That's what causes most violent crime in the first place. That and fear or desperation or some other uncontrolled emotion.

They who believe in vengeance want to BE like the very criminals they are upset with...creatures who do not think, who do not empathize, who are too stupid to stand in another person's shoes for a moment, who simply react violently and strike out.

Yup, that's a lizard-brain all right. No imagination. No perception of the other's pain. No mercy. Such is the nature of the born killer. If you lust to kill the criminal, then you yourself have taken on the mind of the criminal at that moment, whether or not you have technically broken any laws in so doing.

For such, it takes far more courage not to kill. And far more wisdom.