BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 08:15 PM

Har! Har! Yeah, bobad, I read a whole bunch of Lobsang Rampa years ago. All of it. Pretty intriguing stuff. Makes ya wonder, doesn't it?

And if it doesn't....well, too bad! L'i the Enlightened One ain't gonna waste valuable spiritual energy keepin' your sorry ass safe when the walls cave in. No more pizza, baby. And no more nachos either. Just good, clean macrobiotic food grown out on the land and picked fresh by the hands that grew it.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 08:13 PM

golly, Clinton...you give skeptics a bad name...☺

I know, I know...you just 'calls 'em like you sees 'em'....

(we Western boys call that "shootin' from the hip")

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:56 PM

" anyone who is a fierce adverse critic of astrology is certain never to have made any kind of serious study of it"

I've studied it enough to know it's a load of bullshit....

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:43 PM

One day I read my horoscope and it said I would be getting a considerable sum of money. I went to the post office as usual, and there was a royalty check for a pretty tidy sum. Co incidence? sure, but it was nice anyway.
On balance, I have had a lot more days when NO checks came in the mail.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:14 PM

As someone who does astrology, I'm really not sure at all if it's worth entering the fray, but just a few random comments.

A philosophy tutor of mine once said that the views of anyone who has not studied the subject they are discussing can be pretty safely discounted as of no value.

Autolycos's law of astrological ignorance states that anyone who is a fierce adverse critic of astrology is certain never to have made any kind of serious study of it.

Most of the post here show the posters speak of that which they know not. All their over-familiar views have been dealt with repeatedly in reputable astrological works. Please return when you made some decent examination of astrology - the material is easily available.

Of course most of the posters are not going to - that's your right and priviledge, as is freedom of expression. However that doesn't give weight or add weight to your views. As it happens.

Real astrologers, incidentally, don't predict in the ways you seem to be demanding. Prediction is not the heart of the subject. Nor is planetary influence. The weltanschauung of astrology is somewhat different from standard western science.

It might be worth pointing out that, amazingly enough, science is and has often had fierce arguments, some still unresolved. A site worth looking at is www.edge.org/q2005/q05_print.html, where there are many contributions from scientists on the question "What do you believe even though you can't prove it?". And for an interesting discussion about how science has often progrssed in its history by some decidedly dodgy and not very rational procedures, se Pauk Feyerabnd's "Against Method".

I sometimes use astrology therapeutically, as did Jung (he saw it as a useful short-cut. I do so because astrology is far more complicated than your notions of prediction allow. Proper astrologers these days do not say your horoscope lays out what will just happen. That's because they think we have free will. A good analogy. Your horoscope, which details your planets in their signs,houses and relationships to each other etc.etc., is THE HAND YOU WERE DEALT. However, you have free will, which is about HOW YOU PLAY YOUR HAND.

To those interested, having Gemini rising may have something to do with my wordiness;a Libran Moon has some connection with my wish for level-headedness, and fairness in this debate (NO Shambles, but anger anyway); a Taurean Mars means a tough fighter; and Cancer Sun/Libran Moon could lead me not to bother and retire in despair to the sofa after a while if there is no fairness in the debate, but MERE anger or vituperation.

Yes, I'm aware I started angry - more frustrated, really, at prejudice (pre - before;judice - judging =   i.e. like delivering the judgment at the BEGINNING of the trial).

I'm up for open-minded debate. Otherwise, it'll be Gordon Allport's "The Nature of Prejudice" at 3769 paces.

Or we could talk about something else. Not obsessive, me.

That's it for now,I'm off to bed. 'night all.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:03 PM

LH

Have you been reading Lobsang Rampa again?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 07:01 PM

wow! I had no idea! ...and you say L'i transmitted the knowlege of this impending doom to you personally? Channeling Shatner again, I presume!

Gigantic cataclysms that pick skeptics out of the crowds of brain-dead sheep ....uhhhh, open-minded seekers, huh? What WILL advanced technology come up with next?

*sigh*...I can see I'm gonna have to work up an escape pod of my own...one that doesn't rely on rusty hinges...☺

Seven years oughta be enough time to lay in a supply of pizza for the trip to this new planet....you DO realize I'll follow you wherever you go, don't you? (They got Enlightened Dogs up there?)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM

I think yer escape pod escaped without you LH!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 06:15 PM

Now look, Bill D, I have held off talking about it till now, but the real fact of life on this planet, the one fact that really matters, the one beside which all else pales into insignificance, is this:

In Tibet there is a holy dog. He is known as "L'i the Enlightened One". He dwells in a secret cave that the Chinese Army was never able to find. L'i is in charge of all humanity by means of a sort of mind-meld that he does with the human cerebral cortex. He is attempting to gradually wean us away from our destructive and materialistic nature and toward universal brotherhood. L'i manifests on many different worlds in different forms, but on this world he is in the form of a dog. L'i moves in mysterious ways. No one can comprehend the things he does, but without him all would fall into chaos. If humanity fails to be receptive enough to L'i's guidance in the next 7 years, then gigantic cataclysms will be unleashed that will eliminate 99.3 % of the human population. Sceptics such as yourself will be among the first to go. After that, if it happens, humanity will be given another chance to start from scratch in a world swept clean of high technology, corporate logos, an pizza. Total philistines like Clinton Hammond are not expected to survive the cataclysms, but if they do they will be put to work as beasts of burden (it's all they're really good for). One way or another L'i is going to see that the Plan is implemented successfully on this planet before the year 2013. So it's all or nothing. I know that you won't believe any of this, so tough shit. It's going to happen. Doesn't make any difference what you think about it. Your opinions are superfluous. I've paid close attention to everything you have said over the past few years on this forum, and I have to say it's a darned shame when I think of the time I wasted in so doing. I could have been learning how to juggle jelly beans instead! That would have been of some use in the times to come. Now call up Bobert, see if he can send you one of those Wes Ginny slide rules, and calculate your chances of survival when the shit hits the fan. They're not good.


(cackling madly as I oil the hinges on the escape pod...)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:48 PM

dowsing is useful if you need to wash a LOT of hogs.... *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:16 PM

dowsing...

More hogwash

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:13 PM

I do the mix-up-the-horoscopes-and-see-if-they-can-correctly-identify-their-own game with my 6 through 8th grade science club every year. Of course they can't get it right at a rate above random chance, but when the game is over, they read their "real" one and invariably, many say something like "Oh yeah, this fits much better". Just got through showing what hooey it is, and they draw the bulls-eye around the dart anyhow. Powerful stuff this belief.

Now, about dowsing...

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:43 PM

"..an individual's life is (generally) said to commence with the first breath."

??? yes....so? That's how we measure birthdays. It provides no answer as to why it would be the point at which all the heavenly influences 'get ahold' of a life!

"...if you think the sun has a miniscule effect on this planet, let's try turning it off for a week or two and see what happens. ;-)"

sheesh, LH...talk about a straw man! (yeah, I saw the ;-) )

The sun & moon obviously affect the earth....we KNOW how they do, and there would be NO life without one, and a lot different environment without the other, so life with no moon 'might' be different...The outer planets? *shrug*...no science I know of claims to be able to measure anything from the gravitational pull (and that's really all we CAN measure from most of them)of more distant bodies that would seriously affect/influence/control subtle things like personality.

If astrologers limited themselves to claiming Sun & moon influences, I could see their point, even if I disagreed about details....but that wouldn't be very interesting, would it? All the mixed up mythology and presumed 'observation' and pretty diagrams and symbols and complex analysis of a myriad of 'forces' gives it a flavor, like an interesting recipe book. And, of course, like all pseudo-sciences like phrenology, palmistry, Tarot and crystal-ball reading, no one can exactly 'prove' it isn't 'getting' something we need to know.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This "you can't prove it wrong, so it must...ummm ...might.. be true" attitude is what really scares me. Stuff you live your life by ought to have a firmer basis. I am told that there is good evidence that Nancy Reagan consulted astrologers and seriously inserted various opinions into Ronnie's decision making process. No one, least of all Nancy, will confirm this...but.....lawsy!

There are reasons why I poke & prod at people's Sacred Cows and favorite superstitions....what people believe affects how they act, vote, buy, teach, and pass on to their kids, and I'd like to think that each generation KNOWS more than the last...not just plays the old tunes a little differently.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:31 PM

Oh, good. Well, me too. Gotta go to the bank now.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:20 PM

Got all kinda of 'real' stuff to do.... I'm doing some of it right now...

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:17 PM

ok   lemme see    In general, life is (traditionally) said to commence with the first breath.

Bet there's good reason for that, too.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:15 PM

Are you as short of real stuff to do with your time as I am, Clinton?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:11 PM

"an individual's life is (generally) said to commence with the first breath"

So, yet more bullfop, holding up the bullflop that's on top of the bullfop....

You should do something useful with it and plant pumpkins or something....

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:06 PM

WEll, I bet most Catholics wouldn't admit it but    ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:03 PM

Interesting. Are there any pro-life/anti-choice believers in astrology then?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:02 PM

LOL!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:58 PM

I still don't comprehend why the precision required is for the moment of birth, not conception.

The moment of conception is unknowable without technology of recent times, and an individual's life is (generally) said to commence with the first breath.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:57 PM

I tried, but the ball-chain is too short for me to reach

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:57 PM

I went to the Astrodentist site, and it wasn't about astrology at all?????

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:56 PM

If you think the sun has a miniscule effect on this planet, let's try turning it off for a week or two and see what happens. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:54 PM

"please, no ketchup!"

Well, there's something we CAN agree on! LOL

"why do you think the sun and moon have such "distant, miniscule effect" on this planet"
Because one can 'measure' their effect, and SEE how small it is....

And well, as I said above, Pluto/Charon probably isn't even a planet anyway, so all 'astrology' that took "Pluto" into account so far has been wrong...

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:49 PM

He thinks that because they have not yet fallen into his backyard.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:48 PM

Salt and pepper's great -- just please, no ketchup!   

Bill, why do you think the sun and moon have such "distant, miniscule effect" on this planet and everything on it, living or non-living?? If you're talking about Pluto ok ... maybe ... but

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:47 PM

That's true, Clinton. "Some"? Hell, make that "most". They join armies and go off to spread democracy and end war. They buy lottery tickets, hoping for the big win. They vote for the major political parties, thinking they really have a "voice". They drink diet drinks, thinking they'll lose weight that way.

Really no end to it.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:44 PM

So you favour a dissipation theory over a distillation one?

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:40 PM

about natal astrology: Sure, I can see that IF it all had any basis whatsoever, the more detailed the data, the more accurate the prediction would be..(that's why I made the point of 'where' in my example)

But then *daylia's* explanation that it is not a 'prediction', but a description of the "playing field", (leading to certain tendencies, I suppose) merely provides a simple disclaimer for charts that don't seem to 'fit'. If many other obvious factors can influence behavior, personality, conflicts, oportunities, etc....why include star positions at all? No one that I have ever read or talked to about this can offer an explanation of HOW such distant, minuscule 'influences' might work their spell. (and I still don't comprehend why the precision required is for the moment of birth, not conception. Aren't my influences, if any, already determined? Is there some auxiliary notion that my mother is in control until the umbilical cord is cut?...or is it that we seldom KNOW the exact time of conception, and thus the practitioners have just ignored this and use what is easiest?)

Telling me, as M.Ted does, that it's all potentially so complex and hidden from our perceptions that many things might be affecting us simply begs the question....his statements are true...but trivially
true. If 'X' might be true, so might 'Y', 'Z' and all the rest of the alphabet....and if a potential infinity of things might be true, then we have little reason to pick and particular set to latch onto.

   I have no doubt that there is much left to discover about the processes, chemicals, physics, biology, sociology etc...that make individual humans what they are, but the sort of attribution prevalent in astrology fairly reeks of gratuitous, subjective, artificial parameters. Discoveries that demand our attention and consideration because they specifically can BE shown to cause and/or affect certain aspects of Homo sapiens are one thing...presumed influences based on semi-mystical concepts invented by our remote ancestors to satisfy curiosity before they HAD modern science are quite another thing.

If, as *daylia* suggests, you "... find the ideas, insights and counsel offered at Astrodienst to be most wise and helpful anyway,...", fine. No doubt 'suggestions' about dealing with personal problems can be useful...and insights come in many forms. If flavoring your insights with an overlay of symbolism suits you..*shrug*. I like mine kinda bare....I'll salt & pepper them to suit, thanks. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:38 PM

Some people are so gullible and desperate they'll take any answer that's fed to them

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:31 PM

Some souls are such shits by nature that they can't face the thought they might've been here before and been even worse bastards than they are now.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:30 PM

sorry   my Mercury is in the 12th house   confers a rather 'subconscious' sense of humour they say    hee hee

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:28 PM

even flippin flappin floppettes!!!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:26 PM

yeah   and sometimes we come in as floppettes

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:25 PM

"what happened in past lifes"

So it's bullflop on top of bullflop....

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:20 PM

Azizi, I am so sorry to hear about your twin. I too lost a sister - my sister's identical twin. You're absolutely right about the relative influence of nurture, environment and free will. Thank you so much for sharing your story here.

But -complicating this-I don't believe that individuals come to life as a blank slate. IMO, what happened in past lifes also impacts this life. Astrological placements may or may not signify this...

Blank slates? I think not. And yes -- Saturn's placement, pre-natal eclipses, the Nodes of the moon, even certain of the *fixed stars* are often cited as "karmic indicators" (ie the influence of other incarnations). If the astrological "map" (so to speak) is interpreted correctly - a task which most unfortunately requires nothing less than a lifetime (or several) of study.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:08 PM

Good point about the dog's gravitational field, Wolfgang. I understand that cutting edge astrologers are now doing pet-based astrology in which dogs and cats and other common household pets often prove to be the most vital and determining influences upon human destiny.

And that explains everything. These three dachshunds here have totally screwed up my whole life.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:05 PM

Let me clarify that in the case of my [deceased]twin sister and me, I believe that I believe that environment and free will played much more of a role in the way we are different than astrology.

Though we were raised together, I left home to attend college at age 16 years, and I never lived in my home town after that. In contrast, my twin sister remained in our hometown all of her life.

But -complicating this-I don't believe that individuals come to life as a blank slate. IMO, what happened in past lifes also impacts this life. Astrological placements may or may not signify this...

I believe that they do. But maybe they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:02 PM

"can provide an accurate personality profile of an individual by examining the relationships"

Bullflop

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Azizi
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 01:48 PM

Too often the only thing that people know about astrology is sun sign astrology. As a person who was born 20 minutes before my twin I can testify that sun sign astrology only is a bunch of bunk.

And as for those mass media newspaper & magazine astrology columns-almost total garbage!

However, a skilled astrologer or even a credible astrology progam can provide an accurate personality profile of an individual by examining the relationships, if any between the signs & degrees of a person's sun, moon, ascendant, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, North Node, and South Node.

As a Sagittarius with an Aquarius Moon, and a Virgo Rising {Ascendant}, count me among those who know that astrology is a valid tool that provides information [along with the nurture-environmental-free will continuum-as to why people act and think and feel the way they do.

As to whether astrology can predict events-maybe. Maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 01:36 PM

I believe that the true dimensions of the universe include multiveres whose gravity leaks into ours. I also believe that from where ever we are, across an unseen brane there are dimensions that have the unique hyperdimensional quality of virtually touching all other points in space simultaineously.

However astrology has the usefullness of a crock of warm urine.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: GUEST,Bagpuss
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM

Yer not supposed to peek yourself! You'll spoil the experiment.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:52 PM

The site gave a remarkably accurate description of yours truly.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:49 PM

He peed his pants yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:32 PM

"When your dog comes into the room near to you, its gravitational pull is larger than that of all planets combined."

What if ya don't have a dog? Does my cat count? What if it's both of them at the same time?

"pure squidge..."
Nice word, squidge...

" I believe in nasal astrology."
It's very good to know that you're still in touch with yer inner 6-year-old, mate!

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:30 PM

There are better methods.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:25 PM

SunnySister, thanks for posting the link to the Astrodienst home page. Much easier to navigate for first-time users. Should have logged out before I copied the URL, I see now. And you're right -- the site is very easy to use.

Bagpuss, I think that's a great idea! And I nominate Wolfgang, or BillD to collect and post the info, if either would be so kind.

I see people still don't get my point about the importance of interpreting astrological information as "descriptive" first,
"predictive" second. Astrology is "predictive" only insofar as the free will of the individual allows.

Subject: RE: BS: zodiac/star signs.. do you believe?
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:14 PM

Sometimes it's the Oogy-boogy-ness that makes life worth the living.

Astrology however is pure squidge.... in my opinion, of course.

I believe in nasal astrology.
Pick a booger out of your nostril first thing in the morning and predict the day's outcome based on it's shape, colour and configuration with regards to the prevailing wind.