BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 01:35 PM

Yes, Teribus, Custer was defeated primarily because he was, as you say, "a complete and utter prat and a very poor commander". There were other factors too, and they should not be discounted, but his lousy leadership was the crucial factor. If Crook had led as badly at the Battle of the Rosebud, he might not have survived that encounter either, and he might have lost several hundred men rather than about 30.

I think, Teribus, that most of these long-winded debates between you and me and various other people here are unnecessary exercises. We all basically agree on the essential points. We can all look up and document stuff off the net and post it. That stuff may differ in some details when it is regarding something that can only be guessed at (such as the number of warriors who assaulted Custer's column). We can all examine every word another person posts with an eagle eye and find some tiny little nuance or some fact or supposition that they have not remembered to mention, and build a huge argumentative response based on that, proving that they are "wrong".

But so what?????? As I said, we all agree on the essential points anyway. Custer made bad and hasty decisions. He didn't wait for the other army column(s) to show up. He drove his men and horses to exhaustion before the battle. He divided a force of men that was already not strong enough anyway. He underestimated the strength and capability of his opponents. The Indians had better firearms and more fighting men.

You can go on and on....and so can the rest of us...but we basically all agree.

So, I see no point in you siezing upon this or that tiny detail and building a big case out of it. I just don't understand why you are so driven to argue with people about things like that and try to make them "wrong" (in your view). It achieves nothing. It irritates people. It's combative, to no purpose.

Why not just get together and enjoy discussing a subject that is of mutual interest for a change, instead of trying to prove that other people are wrong all the time, which seems to be what you feel you must do?   I cannot fathom your general attitude, because it seems to always be an effort to prove that others are wrong about something. That doesn't help build good communication.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 04:28 PM

Don't ruin my fun Little Hawk, I haven't bothered to be long winded in a coon's age.

Not a high likelihood of large herds of plains bison sinking into vast river deltas or lakes during the spring warm up, Teribus, the plains bison did not inhabit the same ecological niche as the other subspecies, the wood bison. I'm also not certain of your reason for pointing out the relatively small number, in the grand scheme of things, of wood bison that died of natural causes near Lake Winnipeg. That particular incident was a drop in the bucket, when compared to the plight of the plains bison during the same time frame, which were deliberately slaughtered at the encouragement of the various US administrations of the era, but thanks anyways.

I suggest you keep reading more of the history of the Blackfoot on the link I provided and others regarding north American wildlife......perhaps you'll eventually get some of your assumptions straight.

Also I suspect you haven't viewed any North American prairie grassland recently Teribus?

"A village of at least 10,000 you say Metchosin - how many horses? Any idea how much grazing is required? The area over which those horses would have to be spread? Any idea how poorly a horse performs when fed solely on grass? Fed entirely on grass a horse has to spend most of it's time just eating to survive".

Did I say 10,000? I don't recall giving any numbers regarding people Teribus, however, thanks for putting words in my mouth too.

Although my hunting days have long past, I do have some more recent experience regarding horses at grass, both here and in foothills of the Rockies. My horses did, for the past 13 or 14 years, and do very well indeed solely on grass and of a much poorer quality than that found around Fort Macleod, but then, they're of Arab descent and rather tough little fellows too....hmmm...a hobble on a dominant mare is one way which works well keeping them close at hand......can't feed horses solely on grass and perform well? Tell that to the herds of horses still running wild on this continent too. LOL

"1000 Buffalo at a time, you say Metchosin? I'd say that that particular band of hunter/gatherers would be far too busy...."

Actually, I was quoting one of the websites regarding Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump

Band? Check out their social structures before you go "bandying" that term about, Teribus. You're still having difficulty with scale, aren't you?

"Wasteful"? Buffalo Bull Shit! Only in a climate that allows you to live hand to mouth year round and doesn't require you to provision yourself for very long winters and other less predictable events. These people were survival masters on a grand scale. You want to understand wasteful, check out your own average UK garbage tip of today or the mounds of buffalo bones that was generated by the edict of officials of European descent during that time.

A highly communal, generous and efficient society and if it weren't for some of those people's expert generosity in providing tips and assistance, very few "civilized" individuals would have progressed farther across this land than their boats.

What are you attempting to demonstrate here Teribus? That the warrior culture of the plains Indian couldn't possibly have existed because you think the average Blackfoot adult male was too busy helping his wife and kids crack bones and stir grease pits? Or perhaps an Indian pony on prairie grass was so unfit from wandering around with his head down all day, that it needed the extension of a European hand to help it expand and flourish in order to have been of use to the native people of this land? Yeah.....right. LOL   

"Until introduced to the 'white man' Metchosin the native American was a damn sight closer to our stone age ancestors than you appear to realize."

I also don't recall saying I believed any North American indigenous technology was as advanced as the European, or even the Chinese for that matter, but their hearts and brains were as fully functional, and at times more so. And within suposedly industrialized societies, your average cowboy of European descent didn't devise an accurate calendar on his own and I'd be surprised to learn that sweet Peggy, in her low backed cart, could, not only write her own name, but had expertise regarding the cart's construction. Exactly how far from the stone age was the average Scottish crofter, save a few metal tools, you arrogant prat? LOL

Sounding even more like Custer with each sentence, Teribus, keep flailing about in the Big Muddy and patting yourself on the back, but beware the metaphorical arrows aimed at your willie. LOL

Metchosin, whose name is from the Ka-Ky-Aakan word "Smets-shosin". Wanna learn how to quickly dry some fish before it goes bad? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 05:48 PM

Actually, the indigenous cultures in the Americas -- and I'm specifically refering to North America here -- had a very advanced culture prior to European contact. I will refer you all to the Anasazi, the Pueblo, Cahokia Mounds, and the Mound Builders in general (e.g., Serpent Mound in Ohio) as examples. The date for human occupation in the Western Hemisphere is being continually pushed back, especially as underwater and other archeological surveys are done on the coastlines of of the Pacific Northwest regions.

It's now thought that one of the major factors in the extinction of the mammoth in North America was hunters.

You and I probably could not survive in their world. I suspect that they could easily survive in ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 07:36 PM

The extinction based on indigenous hunters is an old theory and has been debunked on several levels when a comparison of other extemporaneous populations that went extinct is made. Lots of things went extinct that probably had little role if any in the world of the cultures living in the New World before European colonization.

Until introduced to the 'white man' Metchosin the native American was a damn sight closer to our stone age ancestors than you appear to realise.

What a crock of shit.

Aztec calendars.

American southwest.

Mound builders and other pre-colonial architects.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

I won't argue. I don't like to think that overhunting made anything go extinct, even though I know that's wishful thinking.

I asked a ranger at Chaco if there was any evidence of trade with the peoples of the Mississippi Valley, since there was overlap in time. She didn't know, but said that she would be surprised if there wasn't. There was much trade between peoples.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:10 PM

Errr... 'Scuse me for interuptin' all the hot air spoutin' but was a consensus ever reached on the size of Errol Flynn's dick? Seems like I remember a few people saying something about twelve inches, but then all this windbaggery intervened and my head started spinnin' and I can't be sure if I really read it or just dreamed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:47 PM

I posted a full-frontal nude photo of Errol, and no one seems to have noticed. It doesn't appear to be any longer than usual. This is in the flaccid state, mind you. I have no further information to offer, but I thought this was a really good start.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 10:51 PM

Well, the flaccid state...that doesn't really answer the question, does it? What we want to know is...could Errol use his willy effectively in place of a saber when aroused? If Custer had had this ability, it might have altered the whole course of the battle at Little Big Horn.

Then again...maybe not. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:00 PM

After Errol Flynn become very close friends with J. Edgar Hoover, Hoover gave Flynn the legendary phallus of Rasputin, which Hoover had obtained from the head of the Surete in Paris. This was grafted onto Flynn at a secret FBI laboratory in Quantico, Virginia, which was also used to inject Hoover with extracts made from goat glands.

Not many people know about all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: number 6
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM

I heard about Rapaire ... the guy down here in the paint section at our local Home Deport told me about it ... he had heard from a guy down at the Rapid Lube who told him he met a guy while travelling in the bus from Moncton to Fredricton that once supposidly had an affair with an ex-priemier of New Brunswick who heard it from one of Jack Kennedy's secret service body guards.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:11 PM

What we want to know is...could Errol use his willy effectively in place of a saber when aroused? If Custer had had this ability, it might have altered the whole course of the battle at Little Big Horn.

And if Custer had been in possession of a large silk bag and about half the hot air that's been spouted in this thread he could have floated away to safety.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:19 PM

Not if those Indians had filled it full of arrows and bullet holes, he woudn't have.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 06 - 11:29 PM

"Even armed as they were, in the position occupied, they only needed to form up in close order to repel a vastly superior force, deployed as Custer's men were, in extended skirmish lines they did not stand a chance as at no time could fire be concentrated, i.e. it was virtually everyman for himself from the outset. "

The documentary that went into the forensic evidence of the bullets and shell cases seemed to believe that Custer's men were mown down by a vastly superior fire rate, once the Indians had closed inside the greater range of the troopers guns. Once hand to hand they were chopped to pieces literally with hand weapons. Indians picked up trooper's rifles and used them - bullets and casing were matched and traced around the field - they even tracked one of the surviving guns. And there was no 'skirmish line' the bodies were found where they were cut down, running away, first to the 'last stand hill' then the last of them fleeing to a nearby gully. Go argue with the esteemed forensic scientists, if you don't want to believe me.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:04 AM

My apologies Metchosin, the reference to the 10,000 came from SRS with the quotation from the Wounded Knee book.

I'm sure your horses were extremely happy and content munching away at all that grass. But what 'work' did they do, what time did they spend grazing compared to the time spent working. By the bye, all those herds of wild horses roaming around the US do nothing, they do not have to 'perform' at all. Draught horses, racehorses, cavalry mounts, they are the horses and types of applications were the horse has to 'perform' for hours on end, day-in-day-out - They are not fed on grass - oats, barely, corn - not grass. During Scotland's War of Independence, the borderers could run circles round the heavier mounted English knights, but each lightly mounted borderer carried enough oats to keep himself and his horse fed, they didn't eat grass.

As to stampeding animals and driving them over cliffs to kill them being wasteful. Once while hunting red deer, one of the party shot a deer which then fell about 45 metres. The deer weighed in at around 110 kilos of which, in terms of meat, only about 18 kilos was useable as a result of the fall. Now you go back into that Head Smashed In web site and have a good read through the archeological evidence unearthed, what types of tools were found - straight out of the stone age (stone axes, knives, scappers). The dig could state the numbers of Buffalo killed, it could not tell how many of those carcasses were just left to rot. As an old hunter Metchosin, once dead, and remember it's the height of summer, how long can you leave a carcass before it becomes useless? What tasks have to be completed very quickly in order to save the meat?

Now with regard to the "stone-age" reference, I thought at the time of writing it that I should have qualified that, as when writing it North American peoples such as the Aztecs, Mayans, etc did come to mind. My ommission was based on the premise that the North American Indians we were discussing were the Plains Indians who fought Custer at the Little Big Horn.

As for:
"Exactly how far from the stone age was the average Scottish crofter, save a few metal tools, you arrogant prat?"

Point 1, No need for name calling.
Point 2, Unfortunate choice of example. Because of the Reformation in Scotland in 1560 by about 1592, the time all you guys were celebrating the hundredth anniversary of Columbus's 'discovery' of the New World in 1492. Scotland was probably the most literate country in Europe, due to John Knox's insistance that every Parish shall have a school and every city a university, that education up to the highest level was to be open and available to all. If you want evidence of that Metchosin take a look at the history of the Agricultural Revolution and, more markedly, the Industrial Revolution and see the significant contributions made in both by Scots. In America's own Hall of Fame take a look at the number of Scots or those of Scots descent compared to the percentage of those making up the current population of America. The first man on the moon - Neil Armstrong, the President who sent him there Richard Nixon. Nixons and Armstrongs, both Scottish Border families, both from Liddesdale. The Scots also made their mark in many other countries they settled in most noticeable are in Canada and Australia.

Now tell us about - "The warrior culture of the plains Indian". Generally they had a culture of "raiding", not of warfare as we understand it. Raiding consists of surprise predatory attacks directed against other tribes or groups. The primary objective of raiding usually is to plunder and then to escape unharmed with the stolen goods. The objective is achieved by killing the men in the target community as well as kidnapping the women and children. Although planned in advance, raiding by it's nature, can never be sustained over a prolonged period of time, and there is often a finite period of time in which raids can occur.

Raiding proved to be a quick and efficient way for young men to gain a reputation and wealth in terms of the horses they stole and the women and children they captured. Within the North American Plains Indian tribes, boys were encouraged to be brave and aggressive. They also gave high status to those men who succeeded in raids. In lean years, or when population pressure forced competition for scarce resources, it is not surprising that these peoples prized aggressive, violent behavior among men. But please, don't give me the "Noble Savage" bit, it's a myth, their battles, or skirmishes, were token in terms of scale and severity compared to what the 'whiteman' knew.   Why? The population sizes were generally too small to create armies, let alone sustain them. However, when they did fight, it was rare for there to be many fatalities. They usually could not afford the loss of more than a few men. It would have be too great a blow for the tribe to withstand. Subsequently, when casualties did mount up, they often broke off combat and withdrew. Being essentially nomadic they did not need to conquer, they only had to discourage and drive off their opponents, taking whatever plunder was on offer.

Exactly the same was true in Africa until the Zulu Chief Chaka developed the tactics and armed his warriors with the assegai with the deliberate intent of killing large numbers of the enemy. Prior to that battles were token demonstrations, one side would outface the other, casualties were slight and the 'losing' tribe submitted and paid tribute. Chaka Zulu's concept from the outset was to conquer and enslave whoever opposed him, during his reign of 8 years (1820 to 1828) he was responsible for the deaths of over 2 million people (equivalent to almost the entire native indian population of the US today).

To put the Little Big Horn into context (it was the largest 'battle' against the whiteman that the Indians ever fought). Those stone-age Scots Metchosin, commanded by the Black Douglas (James Douglas) on a border RAID in 1388 fought a battle against the pursuing English at a place called Otterburn. The numbers involved Scots 4,000, English under Percy 'Hotspur' 9,000, English under the Bishop of Durham 10,000. Result the Scots defeated the English under Percy, those under the Bishop of Durham declined to fight. Just over 1000 English captured and about 1400 slain.

"A highly communal, generous and efficient society and if it weren't for some of those people's expert generosity in providing tips and assistance, very few "civilized" individuals would have progressed farther across this land than their boats."

True in relation to the few English settler's on the east coast, further North neither the French nor the Scots had any problems, likewise with the Spanish to the South. But nonetheless, those early settlers learned, they adapted, they improved, they flourished, in fact they did everything the Plains Indians failed to do.

Talking about the Spanish and the Ka-Ky-Aakan word "Smets-shosin", or "place of stinking fish", a Spanish naval Lt. was the first European to appear in Metchosin in 1790, next to appear was a certain James Douglas of the Hudson Bay Company - good heavens another one of those stone-age Scots (Douglas, probably the most famous Scots Border name ever) - he bought the place from the Ka-Ky-Aakan, in order to develop it as a Trading Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 07:16 AM

I think in battles between the Scotch and English, estimates of the size of the relative sides have to take into account that often many so-called Scotch forces would change sides before, during and after the battle, depending on circumstances. And depending on the money, titles and lands offered as bribes and inducements.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:04 AM

Ma Fois! you have all mersed le point.

Ze real murder-er was none other than Mary Custer.

When her 'usband had left the fort, she slipped from zee back entrance with le gatling gnu, which the General had so carelessly left behind.

care-ful not to be seen, she let her 'usband have it along with a few others for getting up their feelthy trix with red Indian ladies.

Make no mis-take, this was le crime passionel, Messieurs.

And once again zee leetle grey cells have arc de triomph-ed!

Alors!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:06 AM

Very true Shambles, but not at Otterburn, the Scots were on their way home at the end of a particularly successful raid. Otterburn came as the cream on the cake with both of the Duke of Northumberlands sons, plus a good many other English knights taken prisoner the ransomes that were paid came as an additional bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:15 AM

I thought George Armstrong Custer was married to Libby, nee Elizabeth Bacon. Maybe he had TWO wives...or even more...like a sailor in port, maybe he had a wife in every fort...yes, that would explain "Mary."

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:36 AM

I suppose you could say he was interested in his com-fort...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:15 AM

I'm not going to try to compare Custer and the the battle with American Indian tribes that had been impacted by European diseases and settlement for over 200 years prior to Little Big Horn with the battles of the Scots and the English. There may be parallels, but they're probably purely coincidental.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:22 AM

You've said a mouthful there SRS..

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:56 AM

The raiding, shooting from cover, ambushes, and other irregular tactics have worked pretty well over the years: the French and Indian War, Vietnam, Malay, Cuba....

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 12:50 PM

Enfin! You 'ave spott-ed the weakness in ma case.

'Owever, if we apply zee Gallic charm et le wet kipper and escargot technique of interrogation to raise her to a peak of sexual ecstasy, we may still extract a confession from Mary Custer - even if she is an existentialist, and uses her supposed non-existence as an alibi.

Non you cannot escape the remorseless logic of zee leetle grey cells!

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 12:56 PM

Teribus prefers long answers, Stilly. He can then go over them with a microscope to try to find some tiny flaw to harp upon for another 5,000 words or so... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 02:37 PM

the Scots and the Indians both wore tough ex-army combat kilts

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 03:58 PM

I knew several people who got kilt in the Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:59 PM

Stilly River Sage - 13 Apr 06 - 10:15 AM

Point 1 Stilly
The Plains Indians had not been "impacted by European diseases for over two hundered years" at the time of the battle of the Little Big Horn.

Point 2 Stilly
The timespan over which the adversaries about which we are talking campaigned was less than fifty years

Point 3 Stilly
You would be amazed at the points of coincidence between what occured over the Anglo-Scottish Border and the campaign against the plains Indians, even down to how the names of individuals evolved. Only exception is while the wars against the Plains Indians only lasted less than fifty years, the raiding years of the border reivers along the length of the Anglo-Scottish Border lasted 350 years. When it came to raiding, Metchosin and SRS, auld pals - The Borderers (Both English and Scottish) perfected the art. So please don't dismiss it so lightly.

Next time you look at the conflict think of backward, totally eclipsed, doomed. Because that is what is was from the outset. There was nothing noble about it, just plain straightforward statistically predictable. Don't dress it up as anything different.

Such is History.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:05 PM

It's fun to talk, isn't it? And even more fun to demonstrate one's superior knowledgability. Yes indeed. C'mon, folks. Somebody give Teribus more stuff to chew on here....

When we finally exhaust the possibilities of arguing over the Plains Indians, we can start a thread on Captain Kidd and argue about whether or not he should've been hanged and where he buried the treasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM

Interesting that you noted our esteemed historical Governor. What a hoot! Do you think that Sir James Douglas owed his rise to prominence by some sort of genetic imperative primarily the result of his Scottish father? I don't. Why not suggest that his preeminence could have been the result of the amount of African genes supplied by his mother, if you believe in such stuff? And while you're pondering that, please note that good old Sir James' wife was the daughter of a Cree.

And why not consider the plains Indian in the context of the Mayans and Aztecs? It has as much relevance as the average Scottish crofter's brutish existence did to the lifestyle of the Kings and Queens of England at that time.

"Noble Savage?" What are you on about? My ascribing the first people of this continent with a heart, a mind and a mastery of tactical and survival skills, in the context of their environment, somehow equates with the European idea of the "noble savage"? What paternalistic, arrogant, racist crap! That term may be in your lexicon Teribus, but it definitely is not in mine.

Be it with stone blade or iron rivet, the idea of mass production was not solely the prerogative of a European mind. As Rapaire noted, I'd rather take my chances against a prairie winter at that time, with the provender supplied by the masters, than rely on the hunting expertise of some yob who'd once stalked a deer in the "old country". The North American prairie became littered with the sod huts of their failed aspirations and dreams, but don't let it gall you.

And while there, I'd contemplate the piles of bones and rotting carcasses of 2 million buffalo and perhaps cast my mind to a future where Agent Orange would become another bright idea for solving a "problem" by those supposedly far removed from the stone age.

Oh and by the way, the bay with it's nose in the grass on the right, carried me on its back tthrough a 7000 or 8000 foot pass and back, the day after I took this picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:40 PM

Must be a terrible burden for you Little Hawk to have to continually have your extremely superficial/total lack of knowledge demonstrated, but still, no matter, as yet you have failed to disprove anything stated so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:48 PM

Who is trying to disprove anything? That's not what brought me to this discussion. I came here because I am interested in the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:54 PM

Teribus, there's almost no point in answering your foolishness.

Point 1 Stilly
The Plains Indians had not been "impacted by European diseases for over two hundered years" at the time of the battle of the Little Big Horn.

Yes, they had. Europeans had been visiting North America for hundreds of years, touching on the coasts, traveling up the rivers. Mexico was seriously colonized in 1540, the Atlantic coast of the U.S. a few decades after that. Europeans brought diseases that traveled inland up rivers, via Indian travelers and traders, animals, and trade goods through Indian trade routes and wiped out populations long before they ever even SAW Europeans. Capiche? Want a book to read? I can recommend several. An easy one for you is Keeper of the Game, by Calvin Martin, which has a kind of whacko conclusion at the very end, but has stunningly good research all the way through until then.

When Europeans finally arrived in many inland areas the trees had already grown up over former Indian agricultural or village or grazing areas because entire villages were wiped out by measles, mumps, influenza, many things that hadn't been here before so there was no resistance. Scholars have extrapolated pre-contact populations to have been in the millions, and many millions died by way of introduced disease. By the time colonizers reach inland they in many cases thought no one actually had claim on the land because the populations were too sparse to continue to keep it in the "normal" way, to burn, to hunt, to grow, to gather, to raid, to do whatever.

Also consider the pressures of colonization. When the New Englanders arrived and they pushed the groups like the Iroquois tribes into the northern plains, those inhabitants of the northern plains had to move further west and south. Get it? The Sioux (Dakota, Lakota, many others) were originally a woodland tribe. So once again, the Indians were moving and were impacted before the Europeans even reached them.

This responds to only one part of your idiotic message. Don't presume that because I didn't answer any more of it that I in any way agree with any of your conclusions.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

And we were all having a most enjoyable discussion about Errol Flynn and a movie he made about Custer when this thread started. That was why I came here. It interested me. I did not come here to debate minutiai in a silly game of oneupmanship with an Englishman who fancies himself the best informed person in the world on the Plains Indians (and everything else worth talking about). ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 11:07 PM

And Teribus, refer to the thread "the need to win" for insight into why you have not added anything terribly useful to this thread...and have rubbed several people the wrong way in your obsessive need to prove you know more about anything you're interested in than other people do.

It's an emotional habit of yours. It has nothing to do with truth, or with accomplishing anything useful, it's simply an endless series of attempts to enhance your own ego at someone else's expense. That's why people don't react well to it.

Your mind, Teribus, is leading you around by the nose. It's fooling you.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 11:43 PM

Metchosin,
In reply to your post of 13 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM

"Do you think that Sir James Douglas owed his rise to prominence by some sort of genetic imperative primarily the result of his Scottish father?"

Yes most certainly, it is a trait that you can discern right through the line of descent. By the bye, who ever you marry has got absolutely sweet fuck all to do with your own genetic make up - True? His wife could have been a pure bred budgerigar doesn't mean that the fucker could fly.

"And why not consider the plains Indian in the context of the Mayans and Aztecs?"

The Aztecs and Mayans were part of a great and ancient civilisation. They left their mark upon this Earth in tangible form that is without doubt undeniable and impressive. Your Plains Indians left what? A pile of Buffalo bones?

Oh by all means tell us about the "Scottish crofter's brutish existence" and about how it failed to affect the lifestyle of the rulers of the day. Then tell us about how the average Indian or Indian slave affected the life of a tribal Chief of the time. Perhaps you forgot about that in your rose tinted glass view of the life of the Plains Indians, they raided and stole horses, women and children. Now mayhap they required the horses for fairly honourable purposes, what of their female captives and their children - some equally noble and honourable fate no doubt - please inform us.

By the bye, Metchosin, I do not doubt for a second that you ascribe to the first people of this continent with a heart, a mind and a mastery of tactical and survival skills, in the context of their environment. Hells teeth anybody can survive with a modicum of common sense, what is remarkable is mankind's ability to aquire and apply knowledge to improve upon his lot, to become master of his own destiny. That the European did, the whole world over, and that is what the Plains Indian was incapable of, hence his ultimate and completely predictable demise. That has got absolutely nothing to do with paternalism, arrogance or racsim. It is purely a statement of FACT, more than adequately demonstrated by how things turned out - Again True? Believe what you like but that is the plain hard truth of the matter, and I do not give a toss whether you like it or not, it still remains the truth.

"stone blade or iron rivet" ??? Just what the hell are you talking about??

Oh by the bye, first ever example of assembly line mass production was solely the prerogative of a European mind, Portsmouth Dockyard to be precise. Pray tell what example of mass production can the Plains Indians put forward?

Now historically your so called masters when it came to surviving a prairie winter were hard pushed enough to get themselves through it let alone any visitors who might drop by, nice thought though Rapaire. So tell me Metchosin, regarding all those abandoned sod huts full of their failed aspirations and dreams, who now owns and farms those prairie acres today, the Plains Indians or the American Settlers. The honest answer to that question does not gall me one jot. By the way I did caution you about name calling, as to the survival skills that I have been taught and have used, I believe that I could give you a run for your your money in desert, ice or jungle. Metchosin you know precisely sweet fuck all about me, so please, like Custer, do not make the mistake of underestimation.

So the bay is only kept for recreational purposes, thought so, grass would for him, as a cavalry mount in Spain during the peninsular war he wouldn't have lasted one month the way you treat him.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:28 AM

Little Hawk - 13 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM
"I did not come here to debate minutiai in a silly game of oneupmanship with an Englishman"

Rest assured little hawk you haven't - I am not English.

Little Hawk - 13 Apr 06 - 11:07 PM

I realise I might not have added anything useful to this thread, but what I have added to it is at least based on fact and logic, compared to a lot of sentimental nonsense and drivel spouted by others, yourself included. As to having, "rubbed several people the wrong way", with regard to that charge I would only add, not before time, having read some of the purile crap spouted on the subject by yourself and others. You do not only need to be rubbed up the wrong way, on subjects such as this you need to be taught the objective study of History. That involves looking at any given subject or situation from all perspectives, this you continually fail to do to such an extent that by now I believe that you are totally incapable of it.

If you want to examine the truth of the matter I would back what I have stated before your version of events any day, oh great supporter of the underdog. Ego has got absolutely sod all to do with it, somebody comes out with a load of crap, I'll tell 'em in no uncertain manner. Strange how most of those conversations have been with you, and so far you haven't been able to refute one single fact that I have confronted you with.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:30 AM

By the bye, Metchosin, I do not doubt for a second that you ascribe to the first people of this continent with a heart, a mind and a mastery of tactical and survival skills, in the context of their environment. Hells teeth anybody can survive with a modicum of common sense, what is remarkable is mankind's ability to aquire and apply knowledge to improve upon his lot, to become master of his own destiny. That the European did, the whole world over, and that is what the Plains Indian was incapable of, hence his ultimate and completely predictable demise. That has got absolutely nothing to do with paternalism, arrogance or racsim. It is purely a statement of FACT, more than adequately demonstrated by how things turned out - Again True? Believe what you like but that is the plain hard truth of the matter, and I do not give a toss whether you like it or not, it still remains the truth.

That is enough of that, Teribus. You're a fool, a lout, you're stupid. You don't know what in hell you're talking about. You're just plain wrong about these tribes you're dismissing as inferior to Europeans because their cultures were different. You're not even on the same continent, you haven't studied or read anything meaningful on this subject. You're an ass. Stop this bigoted, churlish, pompous, paternalistic rant of yours and just get another thread to hang around.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:32 AM

Comming apart at the seams now , Sparky? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:35 AM

Tourette's acting up again too?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:43 AM

"what is remarkable is mankind's ability to aquire and apply knowledge to improve upon his lot, to become master of his own destiny. That the European did, the whole world over, and that is what the Plains Indian was incapable of,"

and it's THESE arrogant wankers who are pushing the environment ot collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:47 AM

OK SRS,

You went to the trouble of quoting a passage of one of my posts now, rationally dispute it, as opposed to screaming and shouting about it.

Oddly enough enough I do not believe that you could factually dispute one word of it - because it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:55 AM

Why would I wish to refute any of your facts, Teribus? It is not your facts I am objecting to, it is your continual pompous need to impress people with your knowledge that I am objecting to. Anyone can look up facts in books or on the Net and regurgitate them, and if I felt the need to be competitive with you in that respect I would, but I don't. I don't care. It isn't necessary for me to embarass you by picking apart your essays, because you do such a fine job of it all by yourself.

I simply LOVE to look at things from every possible angle...and I do. For instance, I defended Custer's bravery early in this thread, despite his other very obvious failings. (The man was not completely without useful qualities.)

Your ego has you by the nose and is wasting your time. Stop trying to win all the time. No one cares and it doesn't matter. You're a pain. You could bore the balls off a buffalo and drive sober people to drink. You're like a dripping tap in sore need of a plumber. You put the "p" in "pontificate".

Okay, so you're not English. Excuse that presumption on my part. What is your nationality, then? I was under the impression you live somewhere in the UK, but I realize that doesn't mean you must be "English". You could be several other things. Which would it be?

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:57 AM

That's it Teribus, turn on the 'ad hominen' attack - means you KNOW you have lost, we certainly do...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:01 AM

Oh, shit. You shouldn't have said he "lost", Foolestroupe. That is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. I fear that this thread will now reach at least 300 posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:08 AM

You talking to me, Metchosin? I'm just not mincing words. No Tourettes, just trouncing Teribus. ;-D

Sometimes you just have to swear. The rest of it I edited out through this thread, but this time I figured maybe he'd notice that he's insultingly annoying in his loud-mouthed ignorant portrayal of something he clearly doesn't understand. That's why I also used font size +2 to put it across.

LH, he doesn't have "facts," he has opinions based on what? Old movies? Comic book versions of the American West? He is clueless. He should be embarrassed to print this stuff in a public forum when so many can so easily see through his blustering nonsense.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:18 AM

Careful SRS

you keep saying things like that and I might begin to doubt the veracity of all his statements about the war in Iraq...

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:25 AM

Oh yeah, that's where I've seen his name. I usually avoid his posts. With this thread I remember why. (I don't read the war threads much now anyway. There's no way to carry on a reasonable discussion with his kind of hothead in there duking it out).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:27 AM

Well, Stilly, I feel that Teribus is a fragile soul, psychologically speaking, and that if I were to seriously question his, ummm..."facts"...that it might drive him over the edge into real paranoid dementia. I wouldn't want that. ;-) No, I hope to gradually calm Teribus down, gentle him, so to speak, and make him realize that his survival is not threatened in any way by people having a different opinion about Iraq or about how many Lakota scragged Custer and other stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:35 AM

If this is the case, then surely I've pushed him over the edge this evening. I'll leave him in your hands. Until the next time. Go bail him out of the drunk tank. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:35 AM

What the heck. . .