 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:21 PM The Washington Monument. Just reshape and round off the top of it, and add a couple of things at the bottom. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income. Errol Flynn |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Melani Date: 09 Apr 06 - 06:46 PM Well, why do you think they call George Washington the Father of His Country? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:12 PM I wouldn't mind being equated with sex. I feel at times I have been equated with other things. I can't see what he had to be miserable about. I mean ....he was Errol Flynn. It was strapped to his leg. He could always unstrap it. Custer was dead 12 years by 1888, and its fairly safe to discount him as a Jack the Ripper suspect. There some who say that he escaped from the Little Big Horn, and he could have had a hand. But these are extremists. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM The origin of In Like Flynn. http://www.wordorigins.org/wordori.htm#in%20like |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Teribus Date: 10 Apr 06 - 12:47 AM To Melani and SRS, I would say that I have never claimed that information sourced from Wikipedia is infallable, in this particular case the passage quoted happened to be in general agreement with what was written elsewhere and the Wikipedia section was more concise. Estimates of numbers put between 2,000 and 20,000. The former would be too low and the latter way too high. One good way of estimating it is to look at how they would be fed, remembering that the tribes involved were Plains Indians, nomadic hunter gatherers. Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting. During the early 1800's in Europe the maximum time you could keep an army (50 to 80 thousand men) assembled was about three days, after which time it had to disperse. That was in country fairly intensively given over to agriculture with reasonable roads and means of transport. Melani, you were prompted to edit an entry in Wikipedia because the information given was incorrect. With regard to what Little Hawk has stated in this thread, I have done nothing more. The fact that he is not too keen on that is of no concern, or significance to me whatsoever. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Melani Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:15 AM Nobody really credits the figure of 20,000--I was just commenting on the wide range that has been put forth. I think maybe a total of 5,000 at most would be a good guess. They were there for the summer buffalo hunt, and wouldn't have stayed together much longer anyway. Benteen had a big stake in having been totally outnumbered--after all, how else could they account for the defeat of the Seventh, the crack regiment of the Plains? That's one of the reasons the white survivors tended to estimate high. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:19 AM (I'm so glad you feel that way, Teribus. That's perfect.) I would guess there may have been as many as 8,000 Indians in the camp, and 2,000 to 3,000 warriors. That seems like a reasonable estimate. It may have been the only time so many of those Indians came together in one place, and it could only be for a brief time, as Teribus explained, for simple logistical reasons like getting enough food. They came together long enough to put forces in the field that beat General Crook and crushed the Custer attack. Nice work by Crazy Horse. Given the fact that the soldiers apparently took heavier casualties in both battles, the Indians were definitely fighting very efficiently. I don't doubt that Benteen and Reno would have wanted to exaggerate their numbers. The army needed some excuse, after all, for what was a very unexpected disaster. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Purple Foxx Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:45 AM I note from the lbha site that there were TWO warriors called "Little Hawk" there that day. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:55 AM Yes, I expect it was a relatively common name among those people. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:19 AM Yes there was trooper Little Hawk and Captain Little Hawk...... It was all a bit of a shambles too. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM So it's safe to say they can be discounted as Jack the Ripper suspects as well. It was this kind of analytical thought that eventually gave me the answer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 06 - 10:11 AM Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting. Are you assuming they were living off the land to rationalize the group size and their activities? These people were expert at building up stores and I think there would be a lot of preserved (dried) food traveling to such an encampment. Water was the one necessity that wouldn't travel easily with such large populations. Living a nomadic life doesn't mean they didn't know where their next meal was coming from. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Metchosin Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:25 AM Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting. It was that kind of provincial thinking and assumption that got Custer in to trouble in the first place. These people were masters of tactical operations. You don't manage to stampede, slaughter and preserve more than a thousand of buffalo at a time, at places such as Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump, without developing a modicum of skill. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Teribus Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM With the quoted passage from my last post: "Think of the effort required under that culture to feed 20,000 people - basically they would be so busy surviving there would be nobody available for fighting." I can only assume that both SRS and Metchosin, are in agreement with my statement as they both then go on to describe activities that would require a great deal of time, effort and man-power (Not to mention the horses) Metchosin - 10 Apr 06 - 11:25 AM Provincial (i.e. from the provinces, from the country) thinking, would tend to suggest that while they may have been masters of tactical operations, their culture and way of life could never master or implement any cohesive long term strategy. Now then lets have a look at the Buffalo ambush: - Got to find the Buffalo first, takes time and people - Wind/weather has got to be in your favour, luck of the draw - You have to know the ground well enough to know when you can start your stampede, takes time and people. - Slaughtering an animal as large as a Buffalo takes time, you've got to be careful with the guts/intestines etc or you ruin the meat, especially if there is no plentiful supply of water close at hand. So again this takes time and it takes people. - Preserving is not done overnight, their main means of preserving meat was to dry it, that takes a lot of time, you've also got to be in the right sort of country. - How did they carry it? First the freshly butchered meat (wet and heavy) Then the dried meat, not only how did they carry it but how did they keep it dry? 1000 Buffalo at a time, you say Metchosin? I'd say that that particular band of hunter/gatherers would be far too busy to: - Dodge three large Army Columns specifically out looking for them. - The Buffalo would not appreciate their presence either, so that would keep them on the move, making your job harder. - Actively engage and defeat in two separate engagements two of those Columns (Custers and Crooks) whilst skinning and preserving Buffalo, and presumably tanning hides to wrap all that dried meat up in to stop it spoiling should it get wet. Stilly River Sage - 10 Apr 06 - 10:11 AM Yes SRS I am assuming that they were living off the land to rationalize the group size and their activities. That by definition is what "Hunter/Gatherers" do. That is why, in the dim and distant past, when hunter/gatherers came into competition from agrarian groups the hunter/gathers always lost out and had to move. It matters not one jot how expert these people were at building up stores, they would have transport those stores and for the North American Plains Indian that would pose some very serious problems. I dare say that there would be preserved (dried) food, how much? how is it to be kept dry? It all adds bulk, weight, effort and resources to the exercise, which is exactly what I was saying. Conditionally, what you say is very true in that "Living a nomadic life doesn't mean they didn't know where their next meal was coming from" - the condition? That your premise only holds good as long as those living that nomadic life aren't wandering around in groups of 20,000 people. In terms of living off the land and the skill required to do it, Australia's Aborigines and the Bushmen of the Kalahari, have probably forgotten more than any North American Plains Indian ever knew or needed to know. The land they inhabit is far harsher and a damn sight more unforgiving, but take a look at the size of their populations and the size in terms of numbers of individual groups (two dozen is an extremely large group). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: GUEST,Nitpicking bloody old sod... Date: 10 Apr 06 - 01:55 PM Oh, this should be fun. I predict that the wrangling over these quibbly little points and details will consume, oh...another 15 or 20 posts, and another few thousand words. Fun, fun, fun. Who will win? Ask me if I bloody well care. I know the Indians don't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:05 PM Back to the Whitechaple murders. If Custer is of the hook and all the members of the plains tribes too - how about Errol Flynn? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Melani Date: 10 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM Teribus, I think maybe you're not paying close attention--I believe I said above that nobody credits the figure of 20,000. If you would like to see a detailed analysis of the probable size of the village, try the first chapter of Lakota Noon by Greg Michno. He examines a whole lot of different estimates, plus the number of tipis that would fit in X number of acres, etc, complete with grids. He has come up with about 3,000 all together, about 1,000 of whom would be warriors. If you would like to find out how Plains Indians dealt with killing and preserving buffalo, there are a lot of good anthropological studies that go into that in some detail. It is, after all, how they made their living, and they were good at it. They were gathered at the Little Bighorn for the summer buffalo hunt, and one reason people tend to think that the village was larger than it really was is that a portion of it had already started to move on when Reno attacked. When Gibbon and Terry came up on the 27th, they saw the marks where the village had been, but they also saw the marks from the part that had moved away a bit, so it looked like the village had stretched for about 4 miles. Michno says more like a mile and a half. Nitpicking guest--actually, I'm having fun. If you're not, you don't have to monitor this thread. Of course, this is what I do for fun on the other forum, and if you guys think this isn't appropriate for Mudcat, we can always take it to lbha. Or not. I mean, isn't this why it's divided into Music and B.S.? And this is definitely the finest, purest B.S. Shambles--did Errol Flynn ever play Jack the Ripper? Of course, he could have learned proper slashing style from the Lakota--very similar! Maybe Jack spent his younger days living on the Plains! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 10 Apr 06 - 04:51 PM Don't think that he played Jack the Ripper. Here are some others he did not play. http://www.notstarring.com/actors/flynn-errol The star originally lined-up for The Adventures of Robin Hood was James Cagney! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Rapparee Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:01 PM Errol Flynn was absolutely NOT Jack the Ripper. Jack the Ripper was, however, Errol Flynn, only under an assumed name. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:07 PM Teribus, don't assume anything about people agreeing with you, certainly not me. You're making large inaccurate generalizations all over the place. Yes SRS I am assuming that they were living off the land to rationalize the group size and their activities. That by definition is what "Hunter/Gatherers" do. That is why, in the dim and distant past, when hunter/gatherers came into competition from agrarian groups the hunter/gathers always lost out and had to move. It matters not one jot how expert these people were at building up stores, they would have transport those stores and for the North American Plains Indian that would pose some very serious problems. I dare say that there would be preserved (dried) food, how much? how is it to be kept dry? It all adds bulk, weight, effort and resources to the exercise, which is exactly what I was saying. Conditionally, what you say is very true in that "Living a nomadic life doesn't mean they didn't know where their next meal was coming from" - the condition? That your premise only holds good as long as those living that nomadic life aren't wandering around in groups of 20,000 people. These people were incredibly efficient hunters and storers food. They didn't go around all of the time in a group of 20,000, but they could easily come together for a time, as in fact they did in the Greasy Grass right before Custer arrived. You obviously haven't read about the "nomadic" tribe's vast stores of food that were destroyed in winter camps (that did leave them destitute and dependent on their neighbors) after military raids destroyed their supplies. We're not talking "hunters and gatherers" as if there was no trade or agriculture going on at the same time. You're vastly oversimplifying the situation as it existed. Just because YOU don't know how they moved it, packed it, and kept it dry, doesn't mean they didn't do that. I frankly have no time to go digging out the citations necessary to refute your unsubstantiated claims here. I have a job to do. But don't go on presuming circumstances and continuing to make uneducated presumptions just because people are too busy to call you on your mistakes. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Peace Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:15 PM Custer was a Lieutenant Colonel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:21 PM Bravo, Stilly. That is precisely the message I have been sending Teribus ever since I first witnessed the avalanches of stuff he pours forth on his keyboard when he decides he has an argument to win on this forum.... As you said, "I frankly have no time to go digging out the citations necessary to refute your unsubstantiated claims here. I have a job to do. But don't go on presuming circumstances and continuing to make uneducated presumptions just because people are too busy to call you on your mistakes." That is what just about everyone would like to say to Teribus. The man is like a dog with a bone...he just won't let go of it. All for the sake of some imagined petty victory of his ego and his need to be "right". It has to be seen to be believed what lengths he wil go to, how much stuff he will look up, how much of his own and other people's time he is willing to waste in the effort. That's massive insecurity. What you need, Teribus, is not to "win" another petty and useless argument on Mudcat, but to get some psychiatric counseling, in my opinion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM The soldiers did go away and their towns were torn down; and in the Moon of Falling Leaves (November), they made a treaty with Red Cloud that said our country would be ours as long as grass should grow and water flow. Black Elk |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Rapparee Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM Or until such time as gold was found in the Black Hills (a/k/a Paha Sapa), or white people wanted the land, whichever came first. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 06 - 08:51 PM Exactly. LOL! Treaties were never more than a stopgap to lull the Indians into a totally false sense of security until the next invasion and robbery took place...until finally there was just the usual thing the USA demands: "unconditional surrender" After that? Rot in a reservation on the most worthless land that no one else wants. Lose your culture. Sicken and die (hopefully), and then you won't be a problem for America any longer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:32 PM Here's some stuff about Crazy Horse's, half-brother, whose name was Little Hawk. (Guess why I like the name...) "Little Hawk is the younger half brother of the famous Oglala warrior Crazy Horse (1838/1842-1877). He was the offspring of the remarriage of Worm, Crazy Horse's widowed father, to a pair of sisters of the Brulé Lakota chief Spotted Tail, Iron Between Horns and Kills Enemy. The name Little Hawk was given by Crazy Horse's uncle Little Hawk, who then took the name Long Face. Crazy Horse's half-brother, Little Hawk, was killed in 1871, on a war expedition south of the Platte River. His uncle abandoned his name Long Face, and took back the name Little Hawk again. Tribal elders were said to have believed that Crazy Horse's half-brother would have been a greater man than his brother, had he had lived, suggesting that the namesake Little Hawk was held in high esteem among the Oglala for his abilities." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:35 PM Another link to info about Crazy Horse, with some mention of his younger brother, Little Hawk. Crazy Horse |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Rapparee Date: 10 Apr 06 - 09:47 PM The death of Crazy Horse (Tashunca-uitco) is open to debate. He was either stabbed by a guard at the Ft. Robinson (Nebraska) guardhouse when Crazy Horse paniced as he was being locked up, or he paniced at being locked up and Little Big Man stabbed him, possibly with a knife made from a broken bayonet. In any case he lingered and died in the dispensary at Ft. Robinson; I believe that his father was with him at the end. You can visit Ft. Robinson (it's a State Park) and stay in the one of the old officers' quarters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:50 AM Errol Flynn - the Real Jack the Ripper If Kay Scarpetta can get a DNA match, we'll go for an arrest - either way he's hiding something. Rumour has it it's strapped to his leg. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Teribus Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:55 AM Oh do come along Stilly (post 10 Apr 06 - 05:07 PM ) , make your mind up. 25th to 26th June - middle of the summer The vast stores required to support such a vast number was located in their Winter camps - Was there a cold snap or something that June that drove all those Indians into their winter camps? Easy for 20,000 to come together - take a look at the territory, think what it was like, try to imagine it 130 years ago - easy!! - bullshit. Ask Melani what credance is put on the figure of 20,000 (Source Benteen). The source that Melani directs me to, the Author of "Lakota Noon", Greg Michno arrived at 3,000 all together, about 1,000 of whom would be warriors - Not that too far away from Wikipedia's estimate of between 950 and 1,200 warriors in fact. One thing is for certain when it comes to over simplification, you certainly demonstrate that you do not have the foggiest notion what it would take to supply 20,000 people on the move. Under the circumstances the Lakota, Northern Cheyenne and Arapaho found themselves in, in the summer of 1876, it would have been hard enough with a fraction of that number. Your trouble would appear to be applying present day conceptions to yesteryears problems without acknowledging the limitations and constraints that would apply. If you wish to believe that there were 20,000 Indians camped on the Little Big Horn then that is up to you. Logic and commonsense go against it and the only person who came up with that figure was Benteen - who, to the American public at the time was the man who let Custer down, the man who let Custer die. Now under those sort of circumstances he's not going to make light of the numbers of Indians opposing him - is he? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 11 Apr 06 - 02:51 AM Do you reckon that it was Jack the Ripper who did for Crazy Horse? I do understand that Big Prick himself sired a number of Little Pricks |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Melani Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:09 AM Teribus and Stilly, for the THIRD time (she said gently), NOBODY gives any credence to the figure of 20,000. What Teribus said about Benteen is right on the mark. There is an excellent article on the Little Bighorn in the current (June 2006) issue of "American History" magazine--the cover story, in fact. That article says 7,000, with about 2,000 warriors. Captain Myles Moylan, who was with Reno,said there were about 3,600 warriors--obviously a very different view of the same scene Benteen saw. That would have meant a village of maybe 7,000. That's what I mean when I say there are wild descrepancies in survivor testimony. So the only solution is to read everything you can get hold of, and then pick a number you like. The winter camps were not a static place, they were wherever each band decided to set up camp for the winter--usually a protected location, the Black Hills being popular. When their food stores were destroyed, it was along with their tipis and everything else they owned, the result of an attack. They were really screwed because hunting was immensely difficult, if not impossible, in the winter. That's why they were gathered at the Little Bighorn for the SUMMER buffalo hunt.I really suugest some general reading on the lifestyle and culture of the Lakota. I don't have anything off the top of my head, but I can look up and post some references, if you like. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:21 AM no weeth my little grey cells I worked out zee Jack the Ripper solution perfectly, in a thread of zat name. there was no horse inverlved. I would 'ave re-membered. As for the 20 thousand Indians, Monsieur Terribus. How can you be sure. Did you see them leave? No you would not..you make zee elementary mistake. you see the dead cowboys, who could be to blame. Ma Fois! you say, ze indians. You point to zee arrows sticking out of strange places. Mon dieu! you say quelle sauvage! All the time the real murderer is making ees escape. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Rapparee Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:17 AM Yes, DNA evidence now confirms that Errol Flynn is, without a shadow of a doubt, perhaps Jack The Ripper. Or vice-versa. You can fool Dad, you can fool Mom, but you can't fool DNA evidence. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Apr 06 - 10:35 AM I have no particular number in mind at Little Big Horn/Greasy Grass, Terrible. I simply offered an example of where you can find documentation of very good and adequate food storage during at that time in history in a certain context. People who can store during the winter can most likely figure out how to travel with adequate amounts. I'm not reading any more into it than that, and I picked the number because it has been bandied about. You just want to argue to argue, you don't want to come to a finer understanding of this topic, so why should I waste my time when nothing will suit you? Families traveled to the Greasy Grass, not just warriors. There were a lot of people there at that rendezvous. They were managing to feed themselves. You really should read Sandoz's book. Get a feel for the period and the place from someone who did a lot of research on the subject. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Walrus Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:03 PM While we're on the subject of Little Big Horn/Greasy Grass, perhaps someone out there can confirm or quash something I read (too)many years ago. The tale, as I recall it, was thart, folloing the Custer slice-and-dice session a large chunk of the Lakota moved North into Canada where they were intercepted and surrendered to/were 'arrested' by a small group (one source suggested a single constable) of the North West Mounted Police. Is this just an apocryphal tale or is there any truth in it? W |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:21 PM Sitting Bull took many of his people north to seek refuge in Canada shortly after the Custer fight, and he did negotiate peacefully with members of the Northwest Mounted Police. See a link here about it: Sitting Bull in Canada You can find several other sites that talk about it by doing a Google search for: Sitting Bull + Canada |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Peace Date: 11 Apr 06 - 01:22 PM Following the Lakota victory at the Little Bighorn, Sitting Bull and Gall retreated to Canada, but Crazy Horse remained to battle General Nelson Miles as he pursued the Lakota and their allies relentlessly throughout the winter of 1876-77. This constant military harassment and the decline of the buffalo population eventually forced Crazy Horse to surrender on May 6, 1877; except for Gall and Sitting Bull, he was the last important chief to yield. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Metchosin Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM Teribus, I was referring to your and Custer's assumptions as being provincial eg. narrow in thought, culture and creed, with regard to any understanding of the first inhabitants of this land and the plains Indian buffalo culture. Perhaps that's what happens when military wankers and armchair generals get lost in their obsessive game and get hard-ons, nit picking their way through the minutia of historical battles as their primary way of sorting through things. No one is arguing that sedentary agrarian culture did not eventually supercede that of the culture of the hunter gatherer in most places in the world. Regardless, Custer was ill prepared for what occurred on a number of levels at that specific time in history in spite of the ongoing decimation of the original inhabitants. SRS, I also don't think Teribus quite understood the value of women in the plains Indian culture and he obviously hasn't chewed on enough pemican to understand the scale, preparation and value of their travel food that afforded them their mobility. LOL The buffalo jumps of the Blackfoot in Alberta, for example, provided a setting for a massive scale of animal butchering and food processing in North America and did so for at least 8000 years. The scope of this slaughter was not superseded until the European took it up for sport and strategy. Initially, and more so after the incorporation of the horse, the plains Indians were not a few ragged bands of scavengers, spending all their time eking out a meagre existence chasing a few rabbit or deer or dragging around a fly spattered rotting lump of fresh buffalo meat from place to place. The fate of the plains Indian was not sealed primarily by military battle, but by their decimation by communicable diseases such as measles and small pox and the premeditated slaughter and subsequent extinction the North American Bison in the US. Eliminating the buffalo as the plains Indian's primary source of sustenance was a lot quicker, cheaper and a less dangerous means of getting rid of a "problem" than engaging troops to get rid of the "enemy" militarily. " it is estimated that over 7.5 million buffalo were killed from 1872 to 1874. (General Pope and U.S. Indian Policy, p. 179)" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: The Shambles Date: 11 Apr 06 - 03:35 PM A photo of Gall. http://www.sd4history.com/Unit4/gall.htm |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Stilly River Sage Date: 11 Apr 06 - 04:17 PM From Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West, page 200:
Farthest upstream toward the south was the Hunkpapa camp, with the Blackfoot Sioux nearby. The Hunkpapas always camped at the entrance, or at the head end of the circle, which was the meaning of their name. Below them were the Sans Arcs, Minneconjous, Oglalas, and Brulés. At the north end were the Cheyennes. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Apr 06 - 04:36 PM As I understand it the Lakota and Cheyenne got most of their year's food supply from the summer buffalo hunt. The buffalo meat taken was almost all dried into pemmican, and they were able to store enough food to get them through the winter. That's a lot of food. I imagine they had enough of it to camp in one place for more than three days if they wanted to. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Metchosin Date: 11 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM Pemmican (pemican) could be stored for even longer than one winter Little Hawk. Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Apr 06 - 05:45 PM Very interesting stuff, Metchosin... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Ebbie Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:03 PM Maybe I can get it out of my brain if I write it down. I keep reading it as 'Errol Flynn's wife and General Custer.' Out, damn spot! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Rapparee Date: 11 Apr 06 - 07:51 PM Better than "Errol Flynn and General Custer's Wife"!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Apr 06 - 08:24 PM If Flynn had been around back then, it might have been a problem soon enough. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Apr 06 - 03:12 AM Blessed is he amongst men, who doesn't know where his willy ends and his wife stops. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Errol Flynn's willy and General Custer From: Teribus Date: 12 Apr 06 - 08:20 AM Very interesting link Metchosin Having read through it my post of 10 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM wasn't too far out was it "Buffalo ambush: - Got to find the Buffalo first, takes time and people - Wind/weather has got to be in your favour, luck of the draw - You have to know the ground well enough to know when you can start your stampede, takes time and people. - Slaughtering an animal as large as a Buffalo takes time, you've got to be careful with the guts/intestines etc or you ruin the meat, especially if there is no plentiful supply of water close at hand. So again this takes time and it takes people. - Preserving is not done overnight, their main means of preserving meat was to dry it, that takes a lot of time, you've also got to be in the right sort of country. - How did they carry it? First the freshly butchered meat (wet and heavy) Then the dried meat, not only how did they carry it but how did they keep it dry? 1000 Buffalo at a time, you say Metchosin? I'd say that that particular band of hunter/gatherers would be far too busy to: - Dodge three large Army Columns specifically out looking for them. - The Buffalo would not appreciate their presence either, so that would keep them on the move, making your job harder. - Actively engage and defeat in two separate engagements two of those Columns (Custers and Crooks) whilst skinning and preserving Buffalo, and presumably tanning hides to wrap all that dried meat up in to stop it spoiling should it get wet." A few other things came out of the link posted by yourself that would make this exercise even more labour intensive and more time consuming: - The amount of 'kit' needed to perform this operation. This all had to be lugged about and set up. - The amount of water required. Limits location and the water too has to be carried. - Fuel for fires. Not much wood about, so it had to be dried dung, scrub and grass, all of which had to be collected on a continuous basis while all this was going on. Not much chance of keeping your location secret. - Other ingredients, dried berries, marrow, if they were making/living on Pemmican, the marrow they'd get from the long bones, the berries they would have to gather and dry. Pemmican: What was it? There were just two essential ingredients: meat and fat. The meat, from buffalo, deer, or whatever other animals were available, was cut into thin strips, dried, and pounded into a paste. An equal amount of hot liquid fat or marrow was poured over it, and the mixture cooled and pressed into cakes. For flavor, cherries or berries were pounded and mixed in. A pound of pemmican was said to be as nutritious as four pounds of fresh meat, and of course it kept much longer. Stored in rawhide bags, it would last for years. It is mentioned in English as early as 1791. One question though, this all took place at the time of year when they were preparing to gather the ingredients and make provisions to see them through the coming winter. Would it therefore be correct to assume that having survived the previous winter by mid-summer provisions would not over-abundant? And that as their reason for gathering was for the summer Buffalo Hunt, would they not quite possibly have lightened the load with regard to dried foodstuffs as there would be more than sufficient fresh meat available? By the bye, Little Hawk, the three days, if you read my post referred to much larger formations (50 to 80 thousand men) than the numbers we are talking about here, the principle still holds good though. As you did mention it, I have eaten Pemmican, Beef Jerky and it's even better tasting African counterpart Biltong. I also would appear to have a far better appreciation of the work and effort required to prepare it than you. I have also 'field cleaned' animals, quartered them for transport and lugged them out to a point where they can be picked up. Driving animals over cliffs to kill them in large numbers has been done the world over. It is an extremely wasteful method of hunting and in most other parts of the world the indigenous tribes developed better, more efficient means of trapping and killing the animals they needed to survive. Which led to capturing and rearing of certain species, which in effect became the first 'domestic' animals. The normal practice for your Plains Indians would be to isolate one 'herd group' of about 50 to 60 animals and drive them over the cliff. June would mean that the Buffalo would have just about developed their summer coats and be in the middle of the rut. The North American Bison normally really start putting weight on to see them through the coming winter from July to September. Interestingly enough you referred to the introduction of the horse. Originally North America supported two types of horse dating back to the early ice age, both became extinct either due to climate change (not Bush's fault), or by over hunting (not Cheney's fault), or a combination of both. So the horses that the Plains Indians were galloping around on were the descendents of the ones brought over by European settlers. A village of at least 10,000 you say Metchosin - how many horses? Any idea how much grazing is required? The area over which those horses would have to be spread? Any idea how poorly a horse performs when fed solely on grass? Fed entirely on grass a horse has to spend most of it's time just eating to survive. Until introduced to the 'white man' Metchosin the native American was a damn sight closer to our stone age ancestors than you appear to realise. Custer and the 7th Cavalry were not defeated at the Little Big Horn because they were outnumbered by thousands (LH), they were not defeated because their enemy was better armed (LH). They were defeated primarily because Custer was a complete and utter prat and a very poor commander (A common trait in cavalry officers, best advice to most cavalrymen in combat used to be, "Leave the thinking to your horse lad - It's got a bigger head"). The men of the 7th Cavalry were ill-disciplined, poorly trained and badly led. Over 7.5 million buffalo were killed from 1872 to 1874, that makes at least 6,843 per day throughout that period. Apparently the most dangerous season for wild bison is the spring, with the melting of lake and river ice. The buffalo habit of bunching tightly together, safe enough on hard winter ice, often proves fatal in spring conditions, and enormous numbers died when great herds were common. On one day in 1795, a fur trader counted 7 360 drowned individuals in a tributary of the Red River, west of Winnipeg. In recent decades large numbers have drowned in the Peace-Athabasca Delta region of Wood Buffalo National Park. |
