BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006

Subject: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:50 PM

Damn it I used to be really quite pro-Israel but it is hard to see justification for the current Israel attacks on the infrastructure and civilian population of Gaza in retribution for the armed wing of a political party (or maybe a terrorist group or two) kidnapping a serving Israeli soldier.

It's a bit like it would have been if the UK had bombed Dublin after the IRA got Mountbatten, and surely armed forces are legitimate targets aren't they, unlike civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 04:29 PM

Maybe they're trying to sabotage this effort...

Hamas, Fatah agree on plan that would implicitly recognize Israel

The timing is perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

The Israeli reaction does seem excessive. Some analysis is suggesting the main problem is internal Israeli politics. The Prime Minister is not percived to be strong on security, so when something like this kidnapping happens, he has no choice but to react strongly, regardless of if this huge response, or some careful behind the scenes diplomacy would be more likley to recover the soldier.

I also think CarolC is correct. This was probably planned, or at least timed, to sabotage the recoginition of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 06:21 PM

Yeah, and Isreal kidnapped and killed their own citizens. Cut me a break here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:08 PM

Israel had bombed several civilians (a whole family) on a beach in Gaza during the days just before the Israeli soldier and settler were kidnapped by Palestinians. That was what the Palestinians who kidnapped them were responding to, and why they kidnapped them. Israel's timing is impeccable. Always has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:45 PM

"But Mum! He hit me back first!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 09:49 PM

I believe Israel denied responsibility for the beach bombing. Wouldn't be the first time Arabs blew up their own either by mistake, duplicity, or poor aim.

Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war. The Israelis want their captured soldier back.

The story that Fatah and Hamas have contrived an 'implicit' recognition of Israel (within pre-1967 borders) is leaning over so far backwards to find 'recognition' that you are facing your butt.

And we ain't in pre-1967 conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:43 AM

this comment from today's Sydney morning herald -

June 30, 2006 - 10:07AM

Palestinian militants had agreed to a conditional release of the kidnapped Israeli soldier, but Israel had not yet accepted their terms, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said in remarks published today. In an interview with Egypt's leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, Mubarak said "Egyptian contacts with several Hamas leaders resulted in preliminary, positive results in the shape of a conditional agreement to hand over the Israeli soldier as soon as possible to avoid an escalation".

"But agreement on this has not yet been reached with the Israeli side," Mubarak said.

The president said he had asked Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert "not to hurry" the military offensive in Gaza, but to "give additional time to find a peaceful solution to the problem of the kidnapped soldier".

....

I put up a thread for an obituary of an Israeli politican who died earlier in the month. He was a left winger who had instituted the kibbutzim movement, and who was opposed to the occupation of Gaza. How different things could be if people like that had achieved leadership in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:46 AM

and now there's a catch 22 situation:

Three sides hostage to soldier's abduction
Ed O'Loughlin, smh, June 30, 2006 (excerpts)

PALESTINIAN militants, having achieved their dream of capturing an Israeli soldier alive, cannot now release with him without getting something substantial from Israel in return. Otherwise they will lose face. The Israeli Government, which, like every other government in the world, likes to say it will never negotiate with terrorists, cannot give in to demands for it to free some or all of at least 8000 Palestinian prisoners in return for Corporal Gilad Shalit. Otherwise it will lose face.

The Palestinian Authority's moderate chairman, Mahmoud Abbas, cannot use his supposed control over the Palestinian security forces to have them find and free the captured tank gunner from his hiding place in Gaza. To do so would be to confirm the accusation often levelled at the Fatah party by rival groups during the 12 years that it controlled the authority: that it works for Israel, not for the Palestinians. And then Mr Abbas would probably lose more than his face.

As for the authority's new ruling party, Hamas, nearly all of its ministers and parliamentarians from the West Bank and East Jerusalem are in Israeli prisons, having been rounded up on Wednesday night in what Israel claimed was not a hostage-taking exercise but an investigation into terrorist offences.

But having abducted most of the authority's political leaders, the shaky new government of the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, will find it difficult to release them, or to pull its tanks out of Rafah - or to halt its bombing of civilian infrastructure in Gaza - without being able to show its people that it got something in return. Otherwise it will lose face.

And so on and dismally on...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:47 AM

The people of Gaza have been held hostage by Israel for many years.Gaza is surrounded by the might of Israeli forces who control its entry points,its air space,the coastal waters and its land borders.
For over three decades the Israeli military illegally and brutally occupied Gaza.Many of the Palestinian Gazans were refugees from the land which is now Israel.
Gaza has been bombed or shelled on an almost daily basis since Israel evacuated illegal settlers in 2005.
Palestinian civilians have been killed,the border with Egypt has been closed down and Palestinian militants have been assassinated.
The Palestinians are demanding the freeing of women and children held prisoner Israeli jails .
Israel intends to inflict a bitter revenge on Gaza ...and the killing and retribution will continue until Palestine is free.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 07:02 AM

As I said - from what I once heard in a public place from a couple of little kids...

"So WHO started it!"
"He did!"
"He did!"
"But he hit me back first, Mum!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 11:05 AM

I believe Israel denied responsibility for the beach bombing. Wouldn't be the first time Arabs blew up their own either by mistake, duplicity, or poor aim.

Except for the IDF's whitewash of the incident, all of the evidence points to the IDF as the responsible party. And it wasn't just the civilians on the beach. It was also the civilians killed in the air raid on a civilian neighborhood, and the ongoing bombing in civilian areas of Gaza that Israel has been engaging in since its withdrawal from there. If it was just the one incidednt, you and the IDF might be believable, robomatic, but in the context of the many, many bombings of civilians by the IDF in Gaza, you (and they) just aren't.

Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war.

And attacking Palestinians on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is also an act of war. Unless you don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, in which case, you might just see it as the equivalent of squashing a bug. Clearly, that's how the government of Israel sees it.

The story that Fatah and Hamas have contrived an 'implicit' recognition of Israel (within pre-1967 borders) is leaning over so far backwards to find 'recognition' that you are facing your butt.

It was a step in the right direction. Obviously, the government of Israel thinks it's a step toward peace. If they didn't, they wouldn't be working so hard to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:01 PM

Except for the IDF's whitewash of the incident, all of the evidence points to the IDF as the responsible party. And it wasn't just the civilians on the beach. It was also the civilians killed in the air raid on a civilian neighborhood, and the ongoing bombing in civilian areas of Gaza that Israel has been engaging in since its withdrawal from there. If it was just the one incidednt, you and the IDF might be believable, robomatic, but in the context of the many, many bombings of civilians by the IDF in Gaza, you (and they) just aren't.

CarolC you are lumping many different events together in this post, whereas earlier you referred to the single attack, if that is what it was, on the beach. If you stick to that issue, I repeat that Israel denied her forces were behind that attack. You apparently do not accept that denial. I believe when I state the facts I maintain my believability, since I did not actually witness the events and am not a direct witness, (and I suspect you are similar to me in that respect).

And attacking Palestinians on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is also an act of war. Unless you don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, in which case, you might just see it as the equivalent of squashing a bug. Clearly, that's how the government of Israel sees it.

You are confusing quite a lot of issues here. Many attacks made by Israel on Palestinian targets are admitted by Israel, typically in trying to hit a known terrorist figure. You are attempting to broadbrush a very nasty issue, that of terrorists hiding "in plain site" among their own civilian population. Does this make the Israelis terrorists also, or does it make the Palestinian militants victimizers of their own people like bank robbers who hide behind hostages? As for considering people to be bugs, that is a creation of your own imagination in an attempt to gain forum debate points.

It was a step in the right direction. Obviously, the government of Israel thinks it's a step toward peace. If they didn't, they wouldn't be working so hard to stop it.

You are casting the government of Israel as a character in your own play by seeking to state their motivation. This says more about your motivation than Israel's. I heard the news of the 'implicit' recognition of Israel and had one main reaction: "Here we go again, more of the non-denial denial" The new Palestinian rulers are once again trying to wheedle material support from all sides by letting the world hear what it wishes to hear. This is very well worn step in an old direction trod many years by Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:24 PM

The Israeli army has been pounding the Palestinian people for decades from Gaza to the West Bank,from Beirut to Jenin. The Israeli army has bombed and shelled civilians, demolished thousands of homes and cut down orchards, built an apartheid wall ,set up dozens of checkpoints to keep the Palestinians under its armed fist.
It has shelled and ransacked refugee camps and built illegal Israeli settlements in hundreds of locations on stolen land. The Israeli have stolen water and the children of Palestine are suffering appalling malnutrition while ambulances have been shot up and their clinics and health centres have been wrecked.
Thousands of Palestinians have been imprisoned . During the intifada the Israeli military specialised in breaking the limbs of Palestinian teenagers.
But still the Palestinians refuse to give up!Free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 12:57 PM

CarolC you are lumping many different events together in this post, whereas earlier you referred to the single attack, if that is what it was, on the beach. If you stick to that issue, I repeat that Israel denied her forces were behind that attack.

We have much more reason to expect that it is Israel who is lying in this case rather than the Palestinians. And the other cases that I "lumped" together with this one support my contention. That is why I mentioned them in the last post, but not in the previous one. They are in support of my contention that it is most likely the government of Israel that is lying, but not in support of my previous point, which is why I didn't use them previously.

Many attacks made by Israel on Palestinian targets are admitted by Israel, typically in trying to hit a known terrorist figure.

A convenient excuse, but if you look at the timing of the attacks against the background of the peace initiatives that are in play at the time, there is a very clear pattern of the government of Israel using violence against Palestinians as a way to sabotage any peaceful solution to the problem of Israel's occupation and/or blockade of Palestinian territory.

You are attempting to broadbrush a very nasty issue, that of terrorists hiding "in plain site" among their own civilian population.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Where the hell are they going to live? They are living in the area that they have available to them. They belong there. Israel does not have any business concerning themselves with where these people live. If Israel wants to end the violence that is being directed against it by others, all it needs to do is end its far more numerous and far more devastating acts of aggression against others.

You are casting the government of Israel as a character in your own play by seeking to state their motivation

Hardly. The patterns quite evident. They don't require me to point them out. My motivation is the promotion of human rights for eveyone.

The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM

"clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them"

Yeah, so they bloody should too - that big old hairy guy up in the clouds SAID it was their's, didn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

Yeah, Right

End The Unjust Jewish Occupation Of Arab Lands

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM

So, Turkey, Iran, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, and, uh, fucking Armenia are "Arab lands," now? And how short was your bus, robomatic?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 05:22 AM

The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.

So the State of Israel is trying to take back Gaza? This is clearly best achived by pulling the settlers off the land, in the face of some determined opposition, and withdrawing the army? And building this massive great wall to divide up two bits of land that you're intending to keep( The exact line of the wall is not relevant )

A wall to divide 'them' and 'us' makes some sense. Please explain how a wall to divide 'us' and 'us' does? Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:05 AM

Reply to Bunnahabhain,
To deal with the question of Gaza first. The Israeli simply could not sustain its occupation of Gaza which has a population of over a million Palestinians most of whose families fled there ,or were pushed out,from the towns and cities which are now part of Israel.

Some 8000 right wing armed zionist settlers built fortified enclaves in Gaza protected by the Israeli army. These paramilitaries and the Israeli state controlled the water supplies,the checkpoints and most of the sea front.Gaza was chopped up into zones and to go from one area to another was extremely difficult and time consuming for the Palestinians who were humiliated on a daily basis .An Israeli pullout was inevitable and it duly came last year.

Now Israel seeks to control Gaza at arms length. It still controls the border with Egypt and the air space and coastal waters.Gaza's international airport is now wrecked and closed down.Gaza is shelled on a daily basis and dozens of its people including women and infants have ben killed or wounde since the official withdrawal.Last week the Israeli destroyed its power plant leaving Gaza sweltering without electricity.

The apartheid wall is massive and cuts in to the illegally occupied West Bank.It is another massive land grab by the Zionists.It divides Palestinian farmers from their lands and villages from their hinterland.It again makes life intolerable for the Palestinian peoplewho are effectively penned in like cattle by soldiers with tanks and machine guns.Israel is making facts on the ground and seeks to reduce the Palestinian areas to "bantustan" enclaves with all entry and exit points controlled by the state of Israel.

When the Palestinian West Bank was invaded in 1967 there were no Israeli settlers, now there are hundreds of thousands od Zionists in the occupied territories stealing and occuping land and terrorizing the Palestinians with their armoured bulldozers and tanks and heavily armed paramilitaries.
But the Palestinians are stubborn and have nowhere to go .The occupation of Palestine by Zionists has poisoned relationsships in the region and has poisoned Israeli society itself.It is now the most militarised society in the world .
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:08 AM

Makes lots of sense, if you really intend to take it ALL - just gives you room for a defensive fall back position, like the Russians, but shorter... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

The distruction of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza is a collective punishement, no doubt about it. Israel has gone far too far. But when you think about from the Israeli point of view, what have they go to lose?

Just about anything the Israelis do seems to result in more violence, and worldwide disapproval. If you're damned anyway, you're free to do almost anything, and the desire for retribution must be enormous.

To cease reacting to violence and provocation would take far more trust and patience than either side have, and I cannot see how this cycle will ever end.


I'd not though of that Foolestroupe. After All, Gaza is what, half the width of of a Modern Artillery piece's range?

BTW: Yasser Arafat International Airport has been wrecked and shut for four years. Old news maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM

World wide disapproval of Israel? Come off it.It is armed and funded by the greatest superpower _the USA. It was made a regional heavyweight power because of the huge amounts of arms and sophisticated equipment delivered by America.

Then there is the backing of Israel by Europe and the EU nations, another massively important economic and trading block.

What is different is that the image of plucky litttle Israel has been tarnished over the past few decades with, for example ,its invasion of the Lebanon and the deruction by Israel's fascist allies of the Sabra and Shatilla Palestinian refugee camps in the early 1980's. A massacre for which the Israeli man o war Arial Sharon was directly responsible for. The Palestinian uprisings of the late 1980's pitted unarmed civilians fighting with stones against a vicious and extremely well armed Israeli military and as the pictures were flahed around the world support for the Palestinians grew and drained away for Israel.

The liberation of the Palestinian people will arrive one day and will do so when the peoples of the Middle East give practical support to the Palestinian struggle.The road to freedom goes through Cairo. But the Egyptian support will not come from the brutal Mubharak govt.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

"Gaza is what, half the width of of a Modern Artillery piece's range?"

But when your opponent is basically reduced to what is similar to throwing stones - the range of those little rockets is very small - the more distance, the better.

When technology is limited (especially due to lack of financial resources), height and distance are still big military advantages.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM

We have much more reason to expect that it is Israel who is lying in this case rather than the Palestinians. And the other cases that I "lumped" together with this one support my contention. That is why I mentioned them in the last post, but not in the previous one. They are in support of my contention that it is most likely the government of Israel that is lying, but not in support of my previous point, which is why I didn't use them previously.

So in other words, you will utilize only factoids that support your contention at any one time, and you will not hesitate to pull in any other factoids (interpreted by those who are biased in the same way as yourself) to support your contention, whatever that may be. In this case you are using your own bias as 'evidence'!


A convenient excuse, but if you look at the timing of the attacks against the background of the peace initiatives that are in play at the time, there is a very clear pattern of the government of Israel using violence against Palestinians as a way to sabotage any peaceful solution to the problem of Israel's occupation and/or blockade of Palestinian territory.

The timing you wish to blame on the Israelis can be blamed just as equally on the Hamas faction which does not wish to be caught in a compromising situation, and has used terror in the past in exactly that manner. Leave us not forget that Abu Abbas was holding the Hamas government's feet to the fire in order to have them adopt the existing Fatah position on the recognition of Israel. This state of affairs suits Hamas most of all.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Where the hell are they going to live? They are living in the area that they have available to them. They belong there. Israel does not have any business concerning themselves with where these people live. If Israel wants to end the violence that is being directed against it by others, all it needs to do is end its far more numerous and far more devastating acts of aggression against others.

You are continuing the broadbrush. If by 'they' you mean terrorists, you are simply utilizing the point I made, that 'they' are making victims of the non-terrorists they live amongst, but you are holding it not against the terrorists, but against the Israelis. That's like defending the wife beater who blames his wife for making him angry. "He beat her in her own kitchen, but where else was he going to live?"

Hardly. The patterns quite evident. They don't require me to point them out. My motivation is the promotion of human rights for eveyone.

Quite laudable. Now if you can only include the legitimate rights of the bulk of Israelis and Palestinians who seek a peaceful solution within your purview....

The motivation of the government of Israel, and apparently your motivation as well, is to clear all of the Palestinians off of the tiny bit of land they have remaining to them.

There y'go again. At least you said 'apparently'. My reference to the "Jewish occupation of Arab lands" drawing above was precisely to remind you who is occupying a tiny bit of land remaining to them, and it has just got smaller as the Israelis formally vacated the Gaza territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM

"He beat her in her own kitchen, but where else was he going to live?"

So who was in the kitchen first? Que Bono?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM

If you're implying that Sonny beat Cher or his second wife........???

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

"the Israelis formally vacated the Gaza territory. "

Does withdrawal mean flying Israeli jets fly low over the land at night, causing sonic booms, sealing off the Gaza Strip so no food, bottled water or fuel supplies are coming in, destroying the power station, destroying the office of the Palestinian prime minister by air strike?

By ignoring offers to negotiate on the return of that Israeli soldier, the Israeli government shows that the only solution acceptable it is a military solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 10:05 PM

what kind of a solution is tunneling into Israeli territory, killing two soldiers, kidnapping the third?

Not to carp about it, it is a sad situation, just don't keep blaming the one side that voluntarilly already got out.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Jul 06 - 10:59 PM

"But Mum! He hit me back first!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 02:05 PM

Hey Freda Underhill, who writes your material? Is it CarolC or Dianavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM

Israel is determined to take more and more land from the Palestinians -but in the West Bank to the north of Gaza.This is in line with Zionist expansionist policies and it has the military might to achieve its aim of a greater Israel.
However, that depends on cowing the Palestinians and crushing their willingness to fight back.Around a million live in concentrated numbers in Gaza which makes it difficult to invade, subdue and hold.The West Bank with its more scattered and less concentrated population is much easier to invade and intimidate hence the capture of Palestinian representatives in the camps and towns of the West Bank.
But let us alays remember that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land and illegally oppressing its people with the bulldozing of thousands of houses,the stealing of land, the use of tanks,armoured bulldozers and snipers against civilians and the use of checkpoints to daily humiliate and control the Palestinian people.......But it will ultimately fail. The Palestinians will not live like slaves to the Zionists ...and there will one day be a free Palestine.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

GUEST: 02:05 PM

I did it myself, said the little red hen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Ifor, can you accept the existance of the State of Isreal in any way shape or form? Not asking you to accept its right to occupy land up to this specific boundary or that, or to undertake any particular action, just if you can accept it at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM

Eliahu Asheri--he wasn't a soldier.

The various organizations don't give a shit who they kill. I am so fucking sick of hearing about Islam and its putrid justifications for crimes against humanity. It is a sick religion used by sick people. You people want the Israelis to sit back and what? Wait for some UN to enforce a peace? The Palestinians have waged a great propaganda war. The end result will be the use of nuclear weapons. Then NO one will have a fucking homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 09:28 PM

884 people have been murdered and 5932 have been injured in Israel as a result of Palestinian violence and terror attacks between September 2000 and October 2003, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

Lwet's talk about the peaceful Allah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:57 AM

Reply to Bunnahabhain
What a question!You ask if I can accept the state of Israel in any way shape or form?A little recap for you.
Israel was proclaimed in 1948 on land stolen from the Palestinians.The Palestinians were expelled in huge numbers as the Zionist terror gangs and paramilataries were unleashed at places like Deir Yassin where hundreds of them, men women and infants were butchered with knives and guns.
The UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte who was sent in to enforce the partition plan was murdered by the Stern Gang [Yithak Shamir was a member ].
Since 1948 the Palestinians have been hounded,terrorised and slaughtered by one of the most sophisticated military machines in the world.
They have been penned in,denied basic civil or human rights and pauperised.
They have even been murdered in their refugee camps by the thousand.The Israeli general who organised the slaughter of the women and children and old people in the Sabra and Shatilla camps was Arial Sharon [ a man steeped in blood if ever there was one ].

The state of Israel was founded on Palestinian land .The one million Palestinians in Gaza came from the cities and towns and villages to the north in what is now Israel.They have no right of return. It is only through their bitter struggle that they have been recognised across the world as a people...Golda Meir even denied the existence of the Palestinians.
Zionism has poisoned the Middle East.It is a tool of US imperialism.
There is a Jewish tradition in the Middle East which owes nothing to Zionism and eventually only a socialist Palestine will be able to offer any sense of security to all the people of Palestine .Zionism ,by contrast, is sectarian ,militaristic expansionist and hurtling down a deadend to more wars,more conflicts and more disasters.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:23 AM

Your post is bullshit, ifor.

Zionism stems from the late 1800s. I think you dislike Jews. Based on what you write, it looks like that. Covering it with a load of crap still leaves it being hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:25 AM

But feel free to prove me wrong. Let's hear some condemnation of Palestinian terror attacks against Israeli civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:40 AM

I was looking at a small part of the sequence of events. I may be wrong but I do not think it has been shown that the government of Gaza or the people in general of Gaza were involved in the killing of Israeli soldiers or the kidnapping of an Isreli soldier. I understand it to have been rather a military wing of Hamas (as distinct from the government as the IRA or "Real IRA" are from Sinn Fein or the government of the Republic of Ireland) that did the deed.

If I am right in that then the destruction by Israel of the Gaza civil infrastructure and the seizure by Israel of members of the Hamas government are without justification and are acts of international aggression and acts of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM

I understand it to have been rather a military wing of Hamas (as distinct from the government as the IRA or "Real IRA" are from Sinn Fein or the government of the Republic of Ireland) that did the deed.

It is possible to view the armed wing of the Governing party as either completely unconnected to the state at all, or for all intents and purposes, another branch of the armed forces, as they are a milliatry force under the control of the governing party, and so under the same control as the regular armed forces.

In my opinion, the truth in this case lies somewhere between the two extremes


If I am right in that then the destruction by Israel of the Gaza civil infrastructure and the seizure by Israel of members of the Hamas government are without justification and are acts of international aggression and acts of war.

They are, regardless of the exact status of the hamas armed wings.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM

eventually only a socialist Palestine will be able to offer any sense of security to all the people of Palestine

So IFOR, if I'm reading your post right, Israel will be a legitimate state when it becomes a socialist paradise, treating those of all faiths and backgrounds equally, and they all live happily side by side, forgetting that they've been killing each other for the last 60 years.


Some might consider this a little optimistic....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM

It must be comforting to live in a black and white world like Ifor does.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:43 PM

Maybe this will shed a little light on the subject. Why don't we all read about what is being argued over and then come back to discuss what's happening.


A little lengthy but a good, balanced read.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

Accusations of anti semitism are false.I have been opposed to racism and anti semitism all my life .
However, Zionists and their supporters are unable to face the truth of the history of Zionism, Israel and the Palestinian people.
When they are reminded about the terror tactics used by Zionists and the Israeli state itself they are often quick to respond with wild accusations of anti semitisms despite many of their most trenchant critics being Jewish radicals like Noam Chomsky,Tony Cliff and Abram Leon.
Take Tony Cliff for example, he was born in in Palestine in 1917 into a staunchly zionist family.As a teenager he became an opponent of Zionism after seeing the thuggery dished out by Zionist squads against Palestinian workers.At a subsequent Zionist meeting the teenage Cliff [ or Yigael Gluckstein as he was then known ] was beaten up and threatened with his life for opposing these thugs.

Zionism began in Europe in the 1880s because of the anti semitism faced by the Jewish people in the developing capitalist countries.

However, as Jewish socialist writer John Rose explains in his book THE MYTHS OF ZIONISM there is an older Jewish political tradition than Zionism that drew its strength and inspiration from a sense of universality and respect for learning.From their history as a persecuted people it drew an internationalist perspective and outlook with a respect and sensitivity for all persecuted people.That tradition survives despite Zionism's attempt to suffocate it.

Think back to Apartheid South Africa....one of the biggest supporters of that evil regime was Israel.
My beliefs have nothing to do with living in a black and white world but have everything to do with supporting the oppressed against the oppressor...the victim against the bully.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:52 PM

If you mean that, then work for the overthrow of the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

There is a USA I thoroughly support...it is the USA that has a long and honourable democratic and radical tradition.

The USA of those like Harriet Tubman and John Brown who opposed slavery. Those in the USA who fought for racial justice like Paul Robeson, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and James Baldwin.
The USA of the anti Vietnam war campaigners who opposed the war from inside the military in some cases and in civilian life in many instances. The USA of migrant workers, radical New York ,the labour unions and the workers for native American rights.

I certainly don't support Bush and the neo cons,the chickenhawks,the arms dealers and Big Oil.Do you?
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:32 PM

I agree with that, ifor. There are aspirations, hopes and dreams worthy of support. However, I do not see those ideals being 'held to' by suicide bombers who kill kids in busses. I also do not see those ideals being put forth by anyone in the mid-East. Not Israel, not the Arab countries, not Iran, not the USA, not the so-called Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:55 PM

ifor, who claims not to be anti-Semitic, only anti-Zionist, also invokes the name of Martin Luther King.

I guess ifor is unaware of Dr. King's support for Zionism and the fact that Dr. King was among the first to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. In 1968, speaking at Harvard University, Dr. King stated:

"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism."

Source: "The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel" by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM

ifor,

"The one million Palestinians in Gaza came from the cities and towns and villages to the north in what is now Israel.They have no right of return"

And if you bothered reading anything that did not apriori match your opinion, you might have noted that, while about 640,000 Moslem Palestinians were displaced by the creation of Isreal in 1948, over 820,000 Jews were driven out of Arab nations. Will you give them back their lands, or do you insist that Jews are not as worthy as Moslems?

The Nation of Israel was mandated by the League of Nations post WW 1 in the same treaties that formed Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. Originally, the "Jewish Homeland" was to be the ENTIRE reagion of Tranwsjordan- Present day Jordan, West Bank , and Israel.


Look at what the Jews were given , and THEN tell me about the stealing of land from a peop[le.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

http://focusonjerusalem.com/maproom.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM

And the UN partition, which the Arabs REFUSAED to accept.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/part.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

Reply to Guest
"not the so called Palestinians" you say....you are refering to the indiginous population of Palestine which had been rooted in that country since biblical and Roman times. Its's not that I call them Palestinians they call themselves Palestinians.
These are the people who lived in that land before it was hijacked by the Zionists .The Zionists who stole their homes and farms ,razed their villages and expelled the Palestinians in droves.
Let it also be noted that politicians like Lord Balfour who proclaimed the necessity for Jewish homeland in Palestine were deeply anti semitic.
The holocaust was commited against the Jewish people by the nazis in Europeand yet it is the Palestinians who right have had to pay for a Zionist homeland with the loss of their land,their cities and their livelihoods.
The Palestinians are mainly muslim but there is a substantial christian Palestinian community that has also suffered at the hands of the Israelis.
It is a bit sickening reading these posts from the Zionists who cannot even bring themselves to call the Palestinians by that name.The Zionists have done their utmost to drive them out of existence but the Palestinians refuse to go gently.
Zionism has poisoned the Middle East ....during the Middle Ages and up to quite recent pre Zionist times there have been lengthy periods when Jews and Palestinians and Arabs have lived alongside each other in peace. While the Zionists keep bombing and shelling, stealing land and humiliating the Palestinian people there will be resistance and struggle.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor,
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

Anti Zionist Jews ,both secular and religious met with Muslim academics at a conference in London last week called AGAINST ZIONISM :JEWISH PERSPECTIVES CONFERENCE.
The conference roundly condemned Israel's attack on Gaza.Dr Uri Davies an academic called Israel's actions in attacking power supplies a "horrific crime" while Prof Yakov Rabkin said "I am saddened but not surprised by Israel's actions in Gaza.
According to the Jewish socialist John Rose ,author of the Myths of Zionism "The meeting was important because it showed Muslims that there is an anti Zionist perspective inside the Jewish community.
ifor"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:46 PM

So what? Many of those people figure that to achieve Armageddon, the Stae of Israel has to cease to exist. The coming of the Messiah can't happen until then. You seem to be quoting lunatic fringes on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:13 PM

No, I just want to know what entitles Israel to attack a civilian population and to intern foreign heads of state on the pretext that an INDEPENDENT (like the IRA, remember) set of people have kidnapped an Israeli soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Nothing. The same nothing that entit;les 'Palestinians' to attack unarmed Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:35 PM

"what entitles Israel...to intern foreign heads of state..."(?)

And just which 'state' are you talking about, Richard Bridge?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:53 AM

"For decades Palstinian lives have been sacrificed to create space for Jewish lives on Palestinian land renamed Jewish land.For over a generation the attempt to construct a Zionist Jewish identity explicitly denied Palestinian identity. The long confrontation with the Palestinians have fostered those not infrequent Zionist outbursts that have parallels with the genocidal racism and unbridled use of violence from the nazi era."
These words were written by a Jewish writer John Rose and go to the heart of what the Zion ists have done.
Dr Baruch Goldstein,the American born Zionist settler who opened fire with an assault rifle issued by the Israeli army killed 29 Palestinian worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the illegally occupied West Bank is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Such is the extent to which Zionism has poisoned relations between Palestinians and their oppressors.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:54 AM

So go fight for the friggin' Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:06 AM

On one side you have the one of the most powerful and most technologically advanced armies in the world armed with weapons like the latest jet air to ground fighters,apache helicopters,modern tanks, armoured bulldozers and even quite a few nuclear weapons [Mordecai Vanunu is still not being allowed to leave Israel despite renouncing his Israeli citizenship ] .
On the other hand the Palestiniand are fighting back with rifles,some homemade rockets and stones.
The Palestinians have been expelled,slaughtered ,humiliated and imprisoned and yet still they rise....and that seems to piss off those on this website who are their apologists.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM

correction
last line of the above posting should read ...and that seems to piss off those on this website who are apologists for the Zionists....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM

Danger, pedant alert. Elected government ministers if you prefer.

German soldiers were legitimate targets of the resistance, weren't they?

The difference here is the difference between a kidnapper of a soldier being caught and fairly tried, on the one hand (not occurring at present) and innocent civilians and non-complicit government officials being targetted - rather in the same way the Gestapo would select at random and murder members of a French village in which German troops were killed by the resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

Dr Baruch Goldstein,the American born Zionist settler who opened fire with an assault rifle issued by the Israeli army killed 29 Palestinian worshippers at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron on the illegally occupied West Bank is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Such is the extent to which Zionism has poisoned relations between Palestinians and their oppressors.
ifor

Attempting to paint Goldstein as a Zionist visionary or hero is modern day blood libel. Ifor is so full of shit you can actually see it leaking from his pores.

As noted on Wikipedia, Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, the mainstream Israeli parties and the Israeli populace in general. Spokespeople for all the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral and as terrorism. The Kach movement, to which he belonged, was outlawed. The victims of the shooting received financial compensation.

In an address to the Knesset the Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced the US-born Goldstein as a "foreign implant" and an "errant weed." He continued, "We say to this horrible man and those like him: you are a shame on Zionism and an embarrassment to Judaism." Binyamin Netanyahu, head of the Likud party declared, "This was a despicable crime. I express my unequivocal condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM

Israel does not recognise the presence of its troops and settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as an occupation, and when former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon used the O-word to describe what was happening in Gaza, he was forced to rephrase by his own attorney-general.

If Israel recognised that the West Bank and Gaza were occupied, rather than "disputed", two things would follow. First, the Geneva Convention would apply fully to those territories, making it illegal for settler families to move into them and for thousands of Palestinian men, women and children to be taken out to face indefinite "security detention" in Israeli jails. Second, instead of simply talking about a "viable Palestinian state", Israel would have formally acknowledged the existence of a separate entity west of the River Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

The Jewish people have regained their homeland at the expense of their own blood and toil.

The indigenous population, many of whom were Jews, had the option of accepting this fact. When many of them allied with the surrounding pan nationalist Arab countries and tried to kill the Israeli State, they set in motion the circumstances that led to their own suffering.

As to some long-lived connection to the past, a load of Turkish land grants and certificates means nothing.

They were squatters then, they are squatters now.

That's how the Arab countries feel about them, they are useful as long as they irritate Israel. If they are not doing that, the hell with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

Reply to C Ham,
My comments about the Zionist mass murderer Dr Baruch Goldstein are correct and no amount of villification by you can alter the facts which have been widely reported in Israel and indeed on Wikipaedia itself.
Baruch killed 29 muslim worshippers and injured over a hundred others before being killed himself by survivors of the massacre.He was armed with an Israeli assault weapon and dressed in army uniform.

His tombstone became a pilgrimage site for those with right wing leanings .His death was officially classed as "murder".

The local Religious Council of Kiryat Arba declared the his gravesite a memorial and a proper cemetery and his supporters then installed sidewalks,spotlights and candles etc.

One battle between the police and these extreme Zionist supporters lasted several hours !

A support group "The Friends of Goldstein"hold celebrations and yearly feasts in commemoration of this killer near the gravesite.
This commemoration certainly justifies my comment that he is hailed as a visionary in some Zionist circles.
Avi Shlaim has written at length about the poisoning of Jewish and Palestinian relationships in his excellent book "The Iron Wall ",Penguin 2000.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:49 PM

Would those of you who claim to so support the cause of the Palestinians please GO there and lend a hand? You are doing nothing from your computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:57 PM

And stop with the shite about Israelis having stolen the land, etc, That is claptrap. The Palestinians have been pawns for the surrounding Arab countries for decades. You who claim to support Palestinians use them as pawns, too. Isn't there enough oil money to build a damned country for Palestinians? Isn't there? But no. Racist bastards would rather slam Israelis for having a homeland. You hate Jews. Say so, get it off your chests and FO.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:38 PM

You will find that the Zionists did indeed steal and grab Palestinian land when the state of Israel was declared.In fact it hijacked an entire homeland from the Palestinian people in order to establish a Zionist state.What did that mean ?

It meant that hundreds of thousands of Palestinian were expelled because of the terrorism of the Zionist armed militias like the Irgun.

In the village of Deir Yassin for example around 350 Palestinian villagers were butchered with knives or shot dead or blown up with grenades.This massacre occured on the 9th April 1948.Those who committed the mass murder were led by a Zionist leader called Menachim Begin who went on to be the Israeli Prime Minister when the Lebanon was invaded in 1982.

The Zionists went on to steal land, houses , shops, olive groves businesses and whole towns and cities like Jaffa and Acre .

The refugees, who have never been allowed to return and their children and grandchildren, are the Palestinians who are now being bombed, strafed and blockaded in Gaza and in the towns and refugee camps of the illegally occupied West Bank.

The Zionists claim that Palestine was only ever inhabited by a few nomads and was mainly desert.Nothing could be further from the truth!

The Jaffa orange which has come to symbolise Israeli agriculture was grown in Palestinian fruit groves and orchards stolen from Palestinians who had tilled them for centuries .The orange groves of Jaffa go back to the beginning of the 18th century and in 1880 some 30 million were harvested there with many exported to Europe.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:50 PM

Saying it over and over again still leaves it being bullshit, ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM

Jew baiters and race haters
Ain't going to change my world

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

I'll see your orange and raise you a heart medication, original space research, state supported medical care, and the relocation of hundreds of thousands of displaced people from Arab lands.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

I think the Palestinian people, penned in like cattle behind their apartheid wall, half starved in Gaza ,stacked up in their thousands in Israeli jails and forever denied the right to return to their homes and farms will be less than impressed by Israel's "original space research".
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

So I take it you'll be leaving North America soon then? In the interest of returning the land to those your ancestors stole it from?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

Uh, the line to leave forms to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,guest native
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

I looked up to find out what a terroist is I also looked up soldrer. The word are easy reversable

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

ifor is a Brit of some sort. Thank God!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:24 PM

It seems wrong to me that many of the American born and raised armed right wing Zionist paramilitaries living in the illegal Zionist settlements on the West Bank have free and unfettered right of entry to Israel while Palestinians born within the borders of Israel and now living as   refugees in exile have no such right.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:30 PM

The people you are calling Palestinian have reproduced in record numbers with the help of Israeli medicine. Some genocide. They are penned up as you call it due to their leadership being unable to arrive at a peaceful solution and having tried most every other solution including the election of a government with war as its only national solution. When not 'penned up' they have made very useful citizens in surrounding Arab countries and the West, except for instances of being killed in large numbers in Lebanon and Jordan by their fellow Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

I didn't think Brits were that clueless. Live and learn I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

So, shall we discuss the British Empire?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM

"not a day goes by when the Sun doesn't set on the British Empire"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM

The Brits have the standard of living they do as a result of having had an Empire. Their exploitation of various peoples was terrible. Hey ifor, whatcha gotta say about that?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,guest native
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:48 PM

If they talk about the Balfour procumation they shoud read all of it. If people talk about god given them Palistine they should also note the people in the Bible comited every sin possible. Just read it

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

ifor,

" while about 640,000 Moslem Palestinians were displaced by the creation of Isreal in 1948, over 820,000 Jews were driven out of Arab nations. Will you give them back their lands, or do you insist that Jews are not as worthy as Moslems?"

Since you have NOT responded to this, I will presume that you do consider that Jews are not as worthy as moslems.

YOU have defined yourself as a racist, bigoted individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM

The violence unfolding between Israelis and Palestinians today is utterly without purpose. Israel has evacuated Gaza, and what does Hamas do? It doesn't put all its energy into building a nest for its young there — a decent state and society, with jobs. Instead, it launches hundreds of rockets into Israel.

The Palestinians could have a state on the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem tomorrow, if they and the Arab League clearly recognized Israel, normalized relations and renounced violence. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know Israel today. But those driving Palestinian politics seem determined to destroy Israel in its territory — even if it means destroying themselves in their own territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:33 PM

Right you are, Tom. I'd guess you read this excellent analysis from Time Magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

From the Times Magazine article cited above:

          "...Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.

For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?

The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,guest native
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:28 PM

Can anyone tell me where Israel is getting its oil from,it needs oil for their tanks

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

As Golda Meyer opined "the only time there will be peace between the Arabs and the Jews will be when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:46 PM

Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM

http://countrystudies.us/israel/75.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:14 PM

Golda Meir was a bigot (and a racist). There will be peace in Palestine when Israelis learn to love their children more than they love what belongs to the Palestinians.

Gaza was never free. It may not have had settlers and soldiers in it, but Israel was still dropping bombs on it and killing a lot of civilians in the process, and it was still controling its borders, air space, and beaches, and as a result, its economy and autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:21 PM

Like there are no racist 'Palestinian' leaders? Hamas leaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:14 PM

Quite possibly so, Peace. But I don't see anyone quoting any racist remarks from them as if they said something profound and insightful, unlike the bigoted and racist Golda Meir, whose bigoted and racist remark has been quoted in this thread as if it is something profound and insightful.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:23 PM

No 'quite possibly' about it, Carol.


Mahathir told his audience, which included heads of state from an array of Islamic nations, "The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule the world by proxy: They get others to fight and die for them."

He also said the Jews invented "socialism, communism, human rights and democracy" to help them gain "control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power."

Some commentators have suggested that Mahathir's speech last week at the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference deserves a second reading, beyond the anti-Semitism that initially earned it headlines. They say the speech contains an important message about Muslim self-help.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:26 PM

The bottom line is that a country is strugging fot its very survival--namely Israel. I know you will say the asme about Palestine. But to suggest that either 'side' in this has clean hands is to be blind to the truth, IMO. And I happen to know that you see quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:32 PM

Chairman Arafat expresses his opinions about the Jewish People - "I have no use for Jews" -1996

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
Yasser Arafat, then head of the PLO and PA President - Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM

Legitimate Criticism of Israel? 2000:

: "The covetous, racist, and hated Jew Shylock, who cut the [pound of] flesh from Antonio's chest with the knife of hatred, invades you with his money, his modern airplanes, his missiles, and his nuclear bombs.
Dr. 'Ali 'Aqleh 'Ursan, Chairman of the Arab Writers Association in Syria, Al-Usbu' Al-Adabi (Syria), February 5, 2000.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP7200#_edn6

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:04 PM

Well, there you go. Still, I don't see anyone who is arguing for human rights for Palestinians posting those kinds of things from Palestinian leaders as if they were good and legitimate things to say, unlike Golda Meir, who repeatedly gets trotted out in threads like this one as if that bigoted and racist remark was something profound and insightful.

Which, I think, tells us a lot about the mindsets of people who quote those kinds of things.

Those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians, at least recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Palestinian leaders. Many of those who argue against those of us who advocate for human rights for Palestinians do not recognize bigoted and racist language when it comes from Israeli leaders.

And that is why I will continue to point out the bigoted and racist nature of that remark every time I see someone using it as if it were not a bigoted and racist remark, as I have done in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:12 PM

Good. I agree you should.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:29 PM

CarolC you would not know a bigot from a realist, and you certainely dont know me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 11:43 PM

"If we are criticized because we do not bow because we cannot compromise on the question 'To be or not to be,' it is because we have decided that, come what may, we are and we will be."

Golda Meir

BTW, Dave's no bigot or racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

Anyone who doesn't understand that the Palestinians are fighting for (and dying for) their children's homes, and their freedom, and their future (all things that we here in the US and you in Canada say we would fight and die for if needed), doesn't see Palestinians as human beings. Anyone who doesn't think the Palestinians have a right to fight for these things doesn't see Palestinians as human beings. People who don't see other human beings as human beings are bigots and racists.

You may not be a racist, Dave, but you don't seem to have the ability to recognize racism when it is displayed by those you endorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:51 AM

Israel Pulled out of Gaza, to the internationally recognised boundaries, but the Palastinian millitants took this as a sign of weakness, and carried on attacks from there.

The rockets they fire are not as powerful, or as long ranged as Israeli artillery, but they still kill people, mainly civilians. As a statement of intent, they are very powerful, and each one says that the Palastinian authorities either can not or will not stop attacks on civilians.

Are the Palastinian people helped by a Goverment of theirs that pays the families of suicide bombers? A bomber kills some more civilians on a bus, and Israel closes the borders for a week, so the Palastinians with jobs in israel can't work. An impoverised and hungry people are more likley to turn to violence, and it's violence that keeps them in that poverty.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:38 AM

CarolC, like Arafat, like Hamas, like the former supporters of pan arabic nationalism, do not see the "Palestinians" as people. They view them as a convenient club to beat about as long as it serves the purpose of aiding the destruction of Israel and embarassing the United States of America and the West.

CarolC, the Palestinian Authority and various Palestinian NGO's have been receiving substantial aid from the EU for some considerable time (to the tune of $640 million per year) - What have they done with it?

In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.

Likewise tell us about similar enterprises that would benefit the "Palestinian" people that have occurred on the West Bank. I do actually think you will find instances in the West Bank but few if any sponsored by the PA or by Hamas.

The "Palestinian" people are as leaderless now as they have ever been, they are regarded by you and the likes of you as just bricks in the wall, pawns in the game, to be kept in poverty and misery purely for the benefit of a political agenda. The elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have it in their power to improve the lot of their people, they always have had that power. To translate that into something tangible only requires the will to proceed and the leadership to implement the actions required. Unfortunately for the people involved this also requires that their leaders look forwards to the future and what can be, not backwards at the past and what might have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:24 AM

Having been a part of the international effort to develop peace initiatives in the Middle East I do have an insight into the problems, and at least am not just an opinionated armchair quarterback analyst. There will be no peace for the Palestinians until they accept the fact that Israel is here to stay.

The Gaza strip is one place where they can get on with rebuilding a country, economy, and life for their children. The beaches are a great place to develop tourism and recreational facilities, but murder, civil warfare and continually attacking Israel will not promote such industry. The situation is just prolonging instilled hatred, violence and misery for each successive generation of Palestinian children. There is no future for them unless they break this cycle; and the international support for them is rapidly drying up.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

Israel Pulled out of Gaza, to the internationally recognised boundaries, but the Palastinian millitants took this as a sign of weakness, and carried on attacks from there.

This is wrong. Israel removed the settlers and the soldiers, but they did not end the blockade of Gaza or the control of Gaza's borders and air space. And they did not stop dropping bombs on Gazan civilians. Such behavior is hardly a sign of weakness, and it is legitimate to fight against being treated in this way. You would fight it too if you were in their shoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

CarolC, like Arafat, like Hamas, like the former supporters of pan arabic nationalism, do not see the "Palestinians" as people. They view them as a convenient club to beat about as long as it serves the purpose of aiding the destruction of Israel and embarassing the United States of America and the West.

Hamas see the Palestinians as people. Arafat and the former supporters of pan Arabic nationalism... I have no idea whether or not they saw Palestinians as people. Your wording is confusing, but it looks like you might be saying that I don't see Palestinians as people. If so, that's an interesting rhetorical device, but it has no basis in any objective reality. People who believe in equal rights for everyone are recognising the humanity and "peopleness" of everyone. People who think that certain groups of people are entitled to fewer rights than others (like you, Teribus) do not see the groups they discriminate against as people.

In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.


Yes, all of those things... they built roads, hospitals, schools, and all of the other kinds of civil infrastructure that are needed to carry on the business of building a country. Israel has destroyed much of this civil infrastructure by bombing it. Same thing in the West Bank.

The "Palestinian" people are as leaderless now as they have ever been

Possibly.

They are regarded by you and the likes of you as just bricks in the wall, pawns in the game, to be kept in poverty and misery purely for the benefit of a political agenda.

This is pretty laughable, Teribus, and it shows how desperate you are to try to score points. It's the Israelis (with the help of people like you) who are keeping the Palestinians in poverty and misery. And it's people like you who are responsible for the deaths of all of the innocent civilians, both Palestinians as well as Israelis, that have resulted from the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the former occupation and current stranglehold and bombardment of Gaza. People like you are not only keeping the Palestinians in poverty and misery, but also keeping the Israelis in fear and uncertainty.

The elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have it in their power to improve the lot of their people, they always have had that power.

This is bullshit. Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM

How much time have you spent inside the occupied areas, living along side of and listening to the Palestinians there, Dave? Until you've spent enough time in those areas to really know how the people there live, you are no more qualified to say you understand what's going on there than I am. Less qualified, in fact, because I, at least, have read what many of the people who do live there have to say about it. Clearly, you have not.

The Gaza strip is one place where they can get on with rebuilding a country, economy, and life for their children.

Not while Isreal is still dropping bombs on their children, and preventing them from having a viable economy through keeping a stranglehold on their borders and air space. That is what is prolonging the misery for the children of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

I wonder if, inher entire life, CarolC has ever had sexual relations outside of marriage. If so, according to Hamas, she deserves to be dead. If she were in Gaza or the West Bank and a member of her family killed her under those circumstances, it would be a matter of honor and they would not be prosecuted.

BTW, it wouldn't matter even if she were raped.

That's the kind of human rights exponents that CarolC has as her heroes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

CarolC I'm not sure you see the Palestinians as people, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

No it isn't, GUEST. You are saying that the very women you pretend to care about (who are sometimes treated in that way, but hardly in every case), should be punished, kept in poverty and misery, and denied the same basic freedoms that you and I enjoy, just because some of the men in their midst are guilty of the things you describe.

The women who actually live there have said that, 1. They want Israel to leave the Palestinians alone to build their country, and 2. That the things Israel is doing to Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem are making it much more difficult for the women (and the men) of these areas to facilitate the kinds of changes that are needed to help eliminate the kinds of behaviors you have described. By supporting Israel's occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and its stranglehold on Gaza, you are helping to prolong Palestinian women's experience of the behaviors you mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

People who believe in equal rights for everyone are recognising the humanity and "peopleness" of everyone. People who think that certain groups of people are entitled to fewer rights than others (like you, Teribus) do not see the groups they discriminate against as people.

I do not believe in equal rights for everyone. Should the criminal have the same rights as the homeowner they've distubed at 3 am? Should the six year old child have the same right to vote as her parents?

Sweeping statements like that, covering everything, without qualification, are generally very easy to dispute. Engage brain before typing, and insert a qualifier or two. A 'virtually all' or ' normally' such like should be all you need to prevent people like me going out to the exteme ends of your staments, and kicking holes in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:01 PM

Clearly you don't, robomatic. If you did, you wouldn't defend Israel's practice of treating them like they are not people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

I do not believe in equal rights for everyone. Should the criminal have the same rights as the homeowner they've distubed at 3 am? Should the six year old child have the same right to vote as her parents?

Of course they should. The criminal should have the same access to impartial justice as the non-criminal. The six year old should have equal right to vote at the legal age as her parents did at the legal age.

Sweeping statements like that, covering everything, without qualification, are generally very easy to dispute.

You didn't dispute them. You distorted their meaning to try to make them fit your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:14 PM

You didn't dispute them. You distorted their meaning to try to make them fit your argument.

I distorted nothing, I merely asked some rhetorical questions. You inserted the context, or lack thereof, and decided that I was distorting something or other, when all I was doing was pointing out that generally, all embracing staements are either either wrong or facile.

If you want universal statements that actually mean something, stick to science. If you want a debate, then semantics, as you'll find in issue here, are what you want....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:43 PM

You did distort it. You tried to make it look like not allowing an underage child to vote (for instance) is not giving that child the same right as an adult. This is not the case. The adult wasn't allowed to vote as a child, either, and so has exactly the same rights as the child.

And you tried to make it look like a homeowner who is disturbed at 3 am would have different rights than the criminal who disturbs him or her, but the homeowner would also suffer the same consequences if he or she disturbed another homeowner at 3 am, and would therefore have exactly the same rights.

Unless in your world, some people are allowed to vote at different ages than others, and some homeowners are allowed to disturb other people at 3 am and others are not. And if that is the case, then I concede your point, but I also wonder what sort of weirdly discriminatory society you live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

CarolC I almost lost my life during an Israeli attack on Palestinian terrorists once, Have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:55 PM

Probably not, but CarolC almost lost her mind once when was attacked by reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

CarolC I almost lost my life during an Israeli attack on Palestinian terrorists once, Have you?

Nope. But that is entirely irrelevant to what we are discussing. We are discussing what it is like for the Palestinians to live under Israeli occupation and, in the case of Gaza, an Israeli stranglehold on borders and air space, and an ongoing campaign of bombings and other kinds of attacks (ongoing for many years). That experience you mention does not in any way give you a better understanding than me about what life is like for the people living under such conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

CarolC you insist on making these debates personal attacks on my integrity. I cannot believe you actually know very much about this subject, and clearly you are not impartial in this matter. I suggest you get your information from more than one source and make that source other than Palestinian propaganda. Then debate with people stating facts rather than personal emotional driven drivel. Nuff said..

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

You did distort it. You tried to make it look like not allowing an underage child to vote (for instance) is not giving that child the same right as an adult. This is not the case. The adult wasn't allowed to vote as a child, either, and so has exactly the same rights as the child.

So, you accept the one of them has the right to vote, and one does not, and they are being discriminated between on the grounds of age. Still, it only lasts 18 (in most countries) years.


And you tried to make it look like a homeowner who is disturbed at 3 am would have different rights than the criminal who disturbs him or her, but the homeowner would also suffer the same consequences if he or she disturbed another homeowner at 3 am, and would therefore have exactly the same rights.

In some states, they do. There are official judgements that homeowners have no rights to defend themselves, and in some they do.

So yes, in my world, the real worl,d some people are allowed to vote at different ages to each other, if at all, and some homeowners can defend themselves and some can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

CarolC you insist on making these debates personal attacks on my integrity.

No I'm not. I am disputing your arguments, but I have not brought your integrity into it at all. If you insist that your personal integrity is inextricably tied to your arguments, then you are the one who is bringing your personal integrity into the discussion.

So, you accept the one of them has the right to vote, and one does not, and they are being discriminated between on the grounds of age. Still, it only lasts 18 (in most countries) years.

No, I don't. I agree that they both have the same right to vote. The rules are exactly the same for the both of them. That is what is meant by "equal rights"... same rules for everyone. If you try to make it mean something else, you are distorting the meaning of the phrase.

In some states, they do. There are official judgements that homeowners have no rights to defend themselves, and in some they do.

But the same rules apply to everyone within each juristiction. So within each jurisdiction, everyone has the same rights. It's true that people in some jurisdictions have different rights than people in other jurisdictions, but that is not what is meant by not having "equal rights". Again, you are trying to change the meaning of the phrase "equal rights".

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:02 PM

I suggest you get your information from more than one source and make that source other than Palestinian propaganda.

This is a cheap tactic on your part, Dave. My sources are available for everyone to see here in the Mudcat. Most of my sources are Jewish, and many of them Jewish Israelis. For you to try to suggest otherwise is a very large falsehood, and so in this case I do tend to question your integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:07 PM

But I take back what I said about not suggesting that you are a racist, Dave. You are a racist if you consider anything coming from Palestinians to be automatically suspect (and propaganda) for no other reason than that it comes from Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:09 PM

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry I ever bothered trying to reason to somene so myopic as you. I really should know better by now. Tomorrow, I shall mainly be nailing jelly to the wall, as I might actually get something done doing that....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:14 PM

You are a Nazi CarolC and I have nothing more to say to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

Name calling, whether it is calling someone a racist or a Nazi, is unacceptable. It gives no credibility to any of your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:26 PM

No offense to anyone here. I respect the people involved on both sides of what started as a debate and has ended so acrimoniously. However, even the ending might serve to show that if some thinking people can't peacefully talk about the mid-East situation on a forum, the likelihood of it happening IN the mid-East where folks see their very survival as what's at stake just ain't too good.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

No, Dave, YOU are the Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:36 PM

You are a racist, fascist, white supremacist, Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM

I am sure my Palestinian friends would agree with you CarolC

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

Probably.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

The rather impartial question is asked once again:

"CarolC, the Palestinian Authority and various Palestinian NGO's have been receiving substantial aid from the EU for some considerable time (to the tune of $640 million per year) - What have they done with it?

In Gaza, since Israel withdrew what have those whose responsibility it is to look after the "Palestinian" population's best interests and needs done for those people? Built roads? hospitals? schools? Initiated any major Government/Local Authority infrastructure projects that would create employment? Please tell us about them.

Likewise tell us about similar enterprises that would benefit the "Palestinian" people that have occurred on the West Bank. I do actually think you will find instances in the West Bank but few if any sponsored by the PA or by Hamas."

By the way CarolC the above quoted figure amounts to about one third of what the Palestinian Authorities have received - care to explain what they have done with it. This amount of aid has flowed their way since about 1985 - Please tell us what did Tosser Arafat, his minions and successors do with all that money? Tell you one thing CarolC the "Palestinian" people never saw a penny of it, but by God you just take a look at the bank balances of "those in power", you know CarolC those who were supposed to be looking after the long term interests of the "Palestinian" people. Hells teeth woman it was exactly because of this corruption that Hamas was borne, and what have they done? They have followed directly in the feet of their predecessors.

By the way if anybody is interested in why I keep referring to the "Palestinian" people in inverted commas - Its because the "Palestinian" people were a modern day invention of Tosser Arafat. They are an invention that seemed to grip the modern day imagination, they have had conferred upon them the status of a nation, which has never existed until Tosser Arafat started to bilk them for every penny that they were worth in terms of international sob stories. And Tosser Arafat pocketed every penny, just like his mentor who originally spread the lie among the arabic population of the area geographically known as Palestine that the Jews were slaughtering arabs. It was a complete and utter lie, CarolC will not own up to the truth of that, but that is what kicked this whole thing off - Hey CarolC a LIE TOLD BY AN ARAB, THAT WAS BELIEVED BY THE ARABS -IT WAS A LIE NONE THE LESS.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:14 PM

"Now introducing CarolC as 'Little Egypt' and her brand new dance 'The Gaza Strip'!"

"Gee Fred, sure looks like the same old dance to me."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

CarolC is Martin Gibson's evil twin sister.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:06 PM

Geez....

I don't think I've ever called CarolC a Nazi....


I'll just sit back and watch this one.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

Dave (the Ancient Mariner):
As Golda Meyer opined "the only time there will be peace between the Arabs and the Jews will be when the Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us"


CarolC:
Golda Meir was a bigot (and a racist). There will be peace in Palestine when Israelis learn to love their children more than they love what belongs to the Palestinians.

Gaza was never free. It may not have had settlers and soldiers in it, but Israel was still dropping bombs on it and killing a lot of civilians in the process, and it was still controling its borders, air space, and beaches, and as a result, its economy and autonomy.

I think the quote attributed to Golda Meir is thought provoking rather than racist. It goes along with a quote from a member of an Arab death squad indicating that Jews loved life more than any other people.

That quote alone does not justify labeling Meir as a bigot and racist. I think she was neither of those things. She was the opposite of those things. Particularly, CarolC, when in the past you have found Gamal Abdel Nasser, a terrorist dictator, a fitting model for your quotes against Israel.

Possibly you are deliberately misunderstanding the quote as you apparently misunderstood my indication that you do not believe Palestinians are human beings. You clearly don't believe Israelis are human beings. You are turning all of them into symbols that you are labeling 'good' and 'bad' and using skewed interpretations of all quotes and events to justify your preconceived views, as you are choosing some pretty solid citizens (Golda Meir, Thomas Friedman) to decry and some pretty disgusting characters (Yasir Arafat, Gamal Abdel Nasser) as exemplars of truth and moral suasion.

Not that I'm calling you a Nazi. I am not. However, your methods of interpretation are precisely those used by Nazis to justify what they already believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:26 PM

Look at any Mudcat thread from the last five years or so that deals with the Middle East and you'll see that at some point CarolC will kill it off by calling anyone who is not 100% anti-Israel a racist, a nazi, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:41 AM

What the Zionists on this thread refuse to recognise is that th Palestinians have a history in Palestine that goes back to biblical times.
They have been expelled from their homeland and houses etc .They were expelled by force and the use of terror by the Hagannah and Zionist terror gangs in what the Palestinians call the Nakbha.
Until the issue of the Palestinian refugees is settled there will be no peace and no justice.
Israel has ceated facts on the ground with its illegal settlements on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem but the biggest fact is the obstacle of Palestinian resistance which seks to right the wrongs committed in the past several decades
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:09 AM

What the anti-Zionists on this thread don't realize are that many of the Palestinians who were expelled by force and the use of terror by the Babylonians and Romans and Syrians and Turks have returned to their ancestral homes and the illegal squatters who have yet to understand or make peace with that fact on the ground have been given opportunity after opportunity to make peace and accomodations and have made a series of ludicrously wrong choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,forif
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

The rest of the world is just fucking tired of paying for the killing. They either make peace and settle with Israel, or we watch them get slaughtered for another sixty years. Perhaps the third world war is not that far away after all?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:15 AM

CarolC,

This is bullshit. Tha Arabs has only one goal with regard to the Israelis, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than three thousand years. The Arabs will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

What the Zionists on this thread refuse to recognise is that th Palestinians have a history in Palestine that goes back to biblical times.

Another lie from ifor.

The modern-day Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in what is now Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, as conquerors in the 7th century BCE, long after biblical times.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:54 AM

Most people would regard the 7th century BCE as Biblical times.

The term would, unless otherwise stated, be taken to cover the times of both the Old and New Testaments, so could reasonably be taken to cover from the earliest civilisations in the Middle East, dated to before 3000 BCE, through the time of Abraham 2000-1650 BCE, and Moses 1200-1500 BCE to the end of the New Testment, in the first century ACE.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

OOOPS, sorry.

I meant to say the Arabs first arrived in the 7th Century CE (AD). This would have been 600-700 years after the time documented in the New Testament.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:44 PM

Yes, the Palestinians have a history of settlement in Palestine that goes back a very long time.They were carelessly and callously displaced from their homeland in 1948 through the use of mass terror and military might by the Zionist gangs and the newly formed and well armed Israeli military.
The Palestinians have been bombed,brutalised ,slaughtered and humiliated ever since by the one of the most powerful military machine in the world which uses modern jet attack planes ,apache helicopters, heavy tanks,artillery and snipers to slaughter Palestinians...civilians and fighters alike.
Israel has become an ugly,militarised and thuggish regime full of discriminatory laws.It is intent on expelling the Palestinians from their homeland by force and by coerction. It is reminiscent of the way the Aboriginal peoples of Australia and America were expelled from their homelands.
Although Zionism has been criticised the role of the USA has also been a callous one in the long story of the suffering of the Palestinian people.Israel has been armed to the hilt with all kinds of killing machines .Its economy has been bankrolled by the USA .The USA has backed Israel at the UN and at all diplomatic gatherings .And of course the Palestinians have been marginalised and demonised.
However there is a growing worldwide grassroots recognition that the Palestinians have been an oppresssed people ,long bullied and beaten and denied basic civic,human and humanitarian rights.
A free Palestine will come but its people need solidarity!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,forif
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

You could substitute Israel for Palestine in your last post ifor. They lost a fight with Israel when they were much more powerfull.
Israel is a UN recognised country and as such will continue to exist despite all the bullshit thrown at it. They have become powerfull for the very reason a few Arabs now called Palestinians will never become so, they worked at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Teribus, I suggest reading my responses to your questions before you go to the trouble of reposting them. See my 08 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM post.

And while the term "the Palestinian people" may (or may not) have been a recent innovation, the fact remains that the people who have lived in that area for more than a thousand years, whatever we call them, are being ethnically cleansed from that area by Israel, and have been since before Israel's war of independence.


Whenever the people here in the Mudcat who are trying to defend the indefensible are met with arguments they cannot successfully counter, they pretty much always resort to childish taunts, usually aimed at me. We know they have lost the argument when they start doing that, because that's all they've got left to fling. They've run out of legitimate ammo and they are now flinging poo.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:47 PM

"We know they have lost the argument when they start doing that, because that's all they've got left to fling. They've run out of legitimate ammo and they are now flinging poo."


See the last paragraph of YOUR post of 08 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM - MY statment is at least supported by the statements of the Arab groups....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:52 PM

I meant to say the Arabs first arrived in the 7th Century CE (AD). This would have been 600-700 years after the time documented in the New Testament.

Quite so. The Palestinians' ancestry predates the arrival of Arabs in that part of the world. Palestinians are "Arabs" by virtue of language and only part of their genetic makeup.

The people who are the most closely related to the Palestinians, genetically speaking, are Jews. The Palestinians and the Mizrahim have the longest uninterrupted history of living in that region. To say that the Ashkenazim have a legitimate claim to land that belongs to the Palestinians would be like saying that the people from what is now Asia who long ago populated North and South America have a legitimate claim to the land that belongs to the China, Japan, and the other countries in Asia.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:54 PM

I fail to see your point, beardedbruce.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

I understand that, CarolC.

YOU stated that
"This is bullshit. Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda. "


I stated that
"This is bullshit. Tha Arabs has only one goal with regard to the Israelis, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than three thousand years. The Arabs will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world. Everything else they do is just clever sleight of hand to distract your attention from their real agenda."


BOTH are equally valid statements, except you have quotes from the OPPOSITION to the country you are accusing to justifying yours, and I have quotes from the representatives of the nations and groups that I am accusing supporting mine.

Israel has the STATED goal of living in peace with a palestinian state, while the Palestinian groups have the STATED goal of the destruction of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:09 PM

except you have quotes from the OPPOSITION to the country you are accusing to justifying your

This is not true. I have provided many quotes from many Israeli leaders and other high ranking Israelis to support this claim, on numerous occasions here in the Mudcat. In fact these are the only quotes I have used to support this contention.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:14 PM

Carol,

Those quotes are from people IN OPPOSITION to the present Israeli government- as the moderate Arab voices I have quoted are in opposiion to the present Palestinian efforts. You rejected those as not being valid- so why should I accept YOUR selection of Israeli Opposition quotes?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:15 PM

No, they are quotes from the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:18 PM

CarolC,

YOU state " Israel has only one goal with regard to the Palestinians, and that is to remove all of them from the land that they have lived on, worked on, and farmed for more than a thousand years. Israel will not leave them alone until they are all gone from that part of the world."

Please provide the quote that this is the only goal of the Israeli government- I have in past provided the quote that the Israeli government made in 1948 inviting the Palestinians to live in peace with Israel, as well as the quotes from Arab and Palestinian leaders declaring the ONLY acceptable solution to be the desrtruction of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:20 PM

Plus the on-the-ground reality belies any rhetoric to the contrary that some members of the Israeli government provide for the purpose of diverting attention away from their actions.

The reality is that the Palestinians, any rhetoric to the contrary, ARE being ethnically cleansed from their lands, and they have been since before Israel's war of independence. That's the cold, hard, reality, politically expedient rhetoric notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:20 PM

I've provided those quotes many, many times, beardedbruce. Read my posting history.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

You mean like the Jews of the Arab nations and the West Bank were ethnically cleansed? Where is their right of return?

The intent of the division of Transjordan was to provide an Arab homeland and a Jewish Homeland, much like the division of Pakistan and India. NOT perfect, but we are dealing with an attempt by the winning powers of WW I to deal with the Ottoman Empire- the results of which are the borders of present day Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia... It is NOT the fault of Israel that Jordan did not take in the refugees, as Israel did.

WHY do you single out Israel at the ONLY state created by that treaty
that has no right to it's land?

Why do youinsist that only the Palestinians have the right to life and property?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

You mean like the Jews of the Arab nations and the West Bank were ethnically cleansed? Where is their right of return?

We've been through all of this before, beardedbruce, many, many times. Is your memory that selective? Jews are the only people who have any "rights" in the West Bank. And if Jews wanted to live in peace amongst the Palestinians, in the same villages, (not segregated, Jewish-only, settlements, accessed by Jewish-only roads, and defended by a brutal military occupation), and without displacing any Palestinians from their homes, they would be (and are) welcomed by the Palestinians there.

And for the other countries, as I have said many times before, my tax dollars are not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Jews from those places. If you want to start a movement to get the Jews back into those countries, I will be right there with you.

The intent of the division of Transjordan was to provide an Arab homeland and a Jewish Homeland, much like the division of Pakistan and India. NOT perfect, but we are dealing with an attempt by the winning powers of WW I to deal with the Ottoman Empire- the results of which are the borders of present day Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia... It is NOT the fault of Israel that Jordan did not take in the refugees, as Israel did.

Jordan took in many refugees. Half of their population today is of Palestinian origin. But Jordan is a poor country with few resources, and it can only support so many new people. And whether or not Jews have a homeland in the area provided them by the UN is entirely irrelevant to the question of the Israelis taking by force, the land given to the Palestinians by the UN.

WHY do you single out Israel at the ONLY state created by that treaty that has no right to it's land?

We've been through this one many times before, as well, beardedbruce. This is a straw man argument becuase I do not do this at all. Israel is not defending its land. It is taking other peoples' land. If Israel would keep it's activities confined to the area within the 1967 borders (which include quite a bit of land not given to it by the UN, but that was taken by force by Israel), you and I would not be having this discussion.

Why do youinsist that only the Palestinians have the right to life and property?

beardedbruce, this is a lie. You know that I have not ever done this, and that I am not doing this now. I support Israel within the 1967 borders, and I support its right to defend those borders. Any suggestion by you to the contrary is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:14 PM

"If Israel would keep it's activities confined to the area within the 1967 borders (which include quite a bit of land not given to it by the UN, but that was taken by force by Israel), you and I would not be having this discussion."

WHY 1967? Aren't the borders as defined for the rest of the region good enough? Can we alter the borders of, say , Iraq, to something other than the 1923 TREATY boundries?


I have never understood why the 1967 borders were never good enough for the Palestinians and Arab nations until AFTER they had lost additional territory by attacking Israel, and losing. THEN they became some holy thing.


" I support its right to defend those borders"

So I can presume YOU support the present actions Of Israel in Gaza, since they are in support of defending THOSE borders, which the Palestinians had attacked across, with both the tunnel and rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:18 PM

CarolC:

I was not previously aware that you supported Israel within the 1967 borders and its rights to defend those borders. You made my day. Wonder if guest ifor will be as happy with that position. ifor seems to be more of the 'they ain't never shoulda stayed' school.

I notice you have not answered my post of 09 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM so are you retreating from your position or are you going to post something more informative and creditable than your attempted character assassination of Golda Meir.

I'll be happy to repeat the post for you if it will be helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

WHY 1967? Aren't the borders as defined for the rest of the region good enough? Can we alter the borders of, say , Iraq, to something other than the 1923 TREATY boundries?

It is a compromise, and much easier to facilitate than defnining the borders by the UN agreement. But if you think the borders as defined by the UN are preferable, that's your right. But I think you'll have a much harder time convincing the Israelis to agree to that than to the 1967 borders.

I have never understood why the 1967 borders were never good enough for the Palestinians and Arab nations until AFTER they had lost additional territory by attacking Israel, and losing. THEN they became some holy thing.

They didn't attack Israel. That has been more than amply proven already. Israel attacked its neighbors so it could have a pretext for taking more land. That has been its modus operandi from the very beginning.

" I support its right to defend those borders"

So I can presume YOU support the present actions Of Israel in Gaza, since they are in support of defending THOSE borders, which the Palestinians had attacked across, with both the tunnel and rockets.

I might if Israel hadn't been already bombing Gaza for the last umpteen years, and blocking and controlling Gaza's borders and air space. But it has, and so I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

CarolC,

We will have to disagree. I was refering to the 1923 treaty, the LAST time that an Arab government agreed to national borders with a Jewish Homeland.

I dispute several of your assurtions, as you are aware. Does it serve any purpose to debate the causes of the 1967 war, when you dispute what I present, and I dispute what you have stated?

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/lausanne.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BritishMandatePalestine1920.jpg



And since the Palestinians refused the original partition, why should they be allowed to go back and accept it now? They had their chance, and turned it down.

"UNSCOP considered two main proposals. The first called for the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states in Palestine, with Jerusalem to be placed under international administration. The second called for the creation of a single federal state containing both Jewish and Arab constituent states. A majority of UNSCOP favoured the first option, although several members supported the second option instead and one member (Australia) said it was unable to decide between them. As a result the first option was adopted and the UN General Assembly largely accepted UNSCOP's proposals, though they made some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal.

The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention 29 November, the date of this session, as the most important date leading to the creation of the Israeli state."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

robomatic, I have stated my support for Israel within the 1967 borders many dozens of times. If you refuse to read what I post, that is not my responsibility, and it is probably an indication of a purposefully selective memory, as well as the fact that you only recognize things that support your own preconceived views.

I think the quote attributed to Golda Meir is thought provoking rather than racist. It goes along with a quote from a member of an Arab death squad indicating that Jews loved life more than any other people.

It's racist, because it makes a defamatory generalization against a whole group of people.

That quote alone does not justify labeling Meir as a bigot and racist. I think she was neither of those things. She was the opposite of those things. Particularly, CarolC, when in the past you have found Gamal Abdel Nasser, a terrorist dictator, a fitting model for your quotes against Israel.

I'm not going only by that quote for my opinion that she was a bigot and a racist. I'm also going by the legacy of her words and actions.

Possibly you are deliberately misunderstanding the quote as you apparently misunderstood my indication that you do not believe Palestinians are human beings.

Nope. Any time I see or hear someone making defamatory generalizations against whole groups of people, I consider the source of such generalizations to be bigoted racists. An example of this is my agreement with Peace in this thread that the quotes he provided coming from Palestinians are also bigoted and racist.

You clearly don't believe Israelis are human beings. You are turning all of them into symbols that you are labeling 'good' and 'bad'

This is a lie, and you cannot provide any support for it from my posting history.

and using skewed interpretations of all quotes and events to justify your preconceived views

Just because you happend to think they are skewed, doesn't mean they are. And just what are my "preconceived views"?

as you are choosing some pretty solid citizens (Golda Meir, Thomas Friedman)

Again, opinion, and not one that is supported by any facts.

to decry and some pretty disgusting characters (Yasir Arafat, Gamal Abdel Nasser) as exemplars of truth and moral suasion.

Opinion. And one that is skewed by preconceived views as well.

Not that I'm calling you a Nazi. I am not. However, your methods of interpretation are precisely those used by Nazis to justify what they already believe.

You might have a valid point if you were telling the truth about my words and activities. But you are not.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:52 PM

And since the Palestinians refused the original partition, why should they be allowed to go back and accept it now? They had their chance, and turned it down.

This is a fallacious argument, beardedbruce. The fact that they refused it means that they are not obligated to accept any borders that Israel wants to impose on them. The fact that they are now saying they will capitulate on the 1967 borders ought to be viewed by Israel as a gift. But Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have an independent country within any borders, and that is why it is doing everything it can (politically expedient rhetoric notwithstanding) to ethnically cleanse them from all of the lands on which they still live.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:58 PM

"But Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have an independent country within any borders,"


Totally unsupported claim on your part. The Palestinians have made such a statement of purpose, NOT the Israelis.

Negotiations should be from TODAY'S border, as the Palestinians did not agree to negotiate at all when any of the previous borders were in place.

Or should we give back the borders of the Biblocal Kingdoms of Israel and Judea, since you want to go back in time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Levant_800.png

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

I write to support CarolC. Zionism has poisoned relations between all the peoples of the Middle East. It has been used by Western Imperialism as a guard dog to for US interests..oil,and military and geo strategic....
The result has been a catastrophe for the Palestinians in particular. But Israel has time and time again has invaded or attacked or threatened its neighbours [Egypt,Syria, Jordan, The Lebanon]and the indiginous Palestinian people whose lands it has stolen.
"A state governing a hostile population of 1.5 to 2 million foreigners [ie.the indiginous Palestinians in the newly occupied lands ]... is bound to become a Shin Bet [security state ] with all this implies for the spirit of education,freedom of speech and thought and democracy. Israel will be infected with corruption,characteristic of any colonial regime."
Reinhart..p8

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:50 PM

Totally unsupported claim on your part. The Palestinians have made such a statement of purpose, NOT the Israelis.

Not true, beardedbruce. Totally supported on my part in probably hundreds of previous post. As I said, read my posting history. Many, many top members of the government of Israel, throughout its history, have made such statements of purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

Guest ifor:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:51 PM

"And while the term "the Palestinian people" may (or may not) have been a recent innovation, the fact remains that the people who have lived in that area for more than a thousand years, whatever we call them, are being ethnically cleansed from that area by Israel, and have been since before Israel's war of independence."

Who is being "ethnically cleansed from the area" CarolC?

One thing Israel has ALWAYS said, "Stop attacking us, stop killing our civilians and the violence will end. Acknowledge our right to to live in peace and there shall be peace."

It is about time that the Palestinian leadership and their Arab neighbours gave that offer a chance, they never have in the past. One thing is for sure, the "Palestinian" people would greatly benefit from it.

By the way CarolC, what did the PLO and the PA do with all the aid money they received from donor countries (I know where 300+ million US$ went - Tosser Arafat's hip pocket)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:08 AM

Who is being "ethnically cleansed from the area" CarolC?

The Palestinians, Teribus.

One thing Israel has ALWAYS said, "Stop attacking us, stop killing our civilians and the violence will end. Acknowledge our right to to live in peace and there shall be peace."

This is not true. Members of the Israeli government have made this statement many times, although even during times when Palestinians were not killing Israelis, Israel was still killing Palestinians. But many more have said that their practice is to incite violence against Israel in order to provide a pretext for driving all of the Palestinians out, and for enlarging Israeli territory into the surrounding countries.

However violence is not the only way the Israeli government accomplishes its goal of ethnic cleansing. The main, and most effective way is to make the lives of Palestinians so miserable, Palestinians will leave for lack of any other viable alternative. They do this by buldozing Palestinians' houses and orchards, dividing them up into tiny bantustans separated by settlements and access roads, severely interrupting their movements within the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and formerly in Gaza with the use of an arbitrary system of checkpoints (most of which accomplish nothing other than to harass and humiliate Palestinians), by separating farmers from their orchards and fields, harassing farmers who are trying to harvest their crops, confiscating most of the water supply in the West Bank, bombing and destroying all of the Palestinians' civil infrastructure, encouraging and financing the expansion of settlements and basically allowing (by virtue of almost never prosecuting) Israeli settlers to harass, bully, and even kill Palestinian civilians and farmers... the list goes on and on.

It is about time that the Palestinian leadership and their Arab neighbours gave that offer a chance, they never have in the past. One thing is for sure, the "Palestinian" people would greatly benefit from it.

Many of them would dearly love to, but Israel will not permit it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:22 AM

I forgot to mention the "security barrier". That is another tool the Israelis are using to ethnically cleanse Palestinians in the West Bank. Instead of putting the barrier along the pre-1967 border, they are using it to carve out huge chunks of the West Bank and making those areas unavailable to Palestinians, separating Palestinians from their fields and orchards in the process, as well as separating the ever shrinking bantustans one from another so that Palestinians cannot even go from one village to another within their own area. They are turing all of the areas that Palestinians have access to and are allowed to use into a huge prison full of inmates who have no civil rights whatever. This is collective punishment... a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:28 AM

Reply to Teribus
One of the problems is that Israel and its Zionist leadership refues to meaningfully recognise the right of the Palestinian people to exist.
Indeed here on Mudcat many Zionist supporters cannot even bring themselves to call the Palestinians by their name or only use it in quotation marks.
The reality is that Israel was born through the terror inflicted on the people of Palestine....its indiginous population.
At the beginning of the 20th century the Jewish population of Palestinian was only a small fraction of its population and the attempt to settle the land with armed zionists using terror gangs and tactics ruined the social relationships between Jews and Palestinians.
Since its inception Israel has attacked its neighbours and the Palestinian people.Perhaps you will remember the part the Israeli armed forces played in the Suez invasion of Egypt.....or the role it played in the destruction of Beirut and the massacres refugee camps in which thousands of children,women and old people were slaughtered by fascist gangs under the direction of the Israeli army led by that man o war Arial Sharon.The Israeli fired up the flares and guarded the camp's boundaries while the mass murderers went in with their bayonets and knives and machine guns.
The Palestinians have tasted at the well of Zionist justice for several decades and still they are being battered and blown up in Gaza and on the West Bank with the Gazans being half starved, denied water and strafed from the air.The sonic booms of Israeli aircraft flying a few hundred feet above one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world is causing psychological problems among many children and women are miscarrying.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:29 AM

And tyesterday I saw on the news thatan American soldier killed three people and participated(?) in the rape of a 14 year old girl. Then killed her. He seemed to look rather shocked when he was taken into custody. May I ask: what do you teach these people?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:39 PM

Israel has been used by the USA to police the Middle East for the past six decades.It has done so because the Middle East supplies much of the world's oil and the USA has the stategic aim of controlling either directly or indirectly this oil.
Through Israel and sometimes directly itself, the USA has been able to bribe , confront,browbeat ,threaten,cajole or subdue Arab nationalism.
It has inflicted or propped up dictators in the Middle East from Saddam in Iraq to the Shah in Iran,from Mubarrak in Egypt to the Saudi Royal House in Saudi Arabia.
In all of this Israel plays the role of guard dog wielding the big stick on behalf of the bigger dog but also on occasions acting solely in its own interests.
And oh how the people of the Middle East have suffered ..none more so than the Palestinians who have been expelled, blown up and humiliated ....where did the one and a half million Palestinians in Gaza originally come from...not from Gaza which was once only a stip of dunes and desert...no ...they came from what is now Israel...and they want the right to return.
WALT

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:01 PM

Walt, what a crock of pure shit

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

The trouble with the Zionists they don't like to be told the truth about what has been done by Zionists to the Palestinian people.
For example the USA vetoed a UN resolution this week condemning Israel actions in Gaza.
What exactly is that action?
Well it is the indiscriminate bombing and shelling of heavily built up civilian areas.Dozens have been killed in Gaza during the past few weeks including many children blown up by shells.
What else?
The Israelis have blown up the power station cutting electricity to emergency operating theatres,clinics ,homes ,schools apartment blocks , sewage plants and shops etc
The children of Gaza are suffering from malnutrition and are starving yet the shops have lost refrigeration and factories have been bombed.
Unemployment rates are huge and even off shore fisheries have been blocked by the Israelis denying this source of food to the Palestinians.
Bridges have been blown up and tanks have penetrated into Gaza.Israel has encircled the city and the border crossings into Egypt has been blocked. Thousands of people including the elderly have been stranded at these crossings.
The Israeli soldier ,who by the way has a french passport, was captured by Palestinian fighters who have offered his safe return in exchange for women and children being ilegally held by the Israelis...these were mainly kidnapped from the illegally occupied West Bank by Israeli military forces who are holding thousands of prisoners in disgraceful and inhumane conditions including tent prisons in the sweltering desert.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

Well if they had stopped killing Israelis they wouldn't be back in Gaza, but of course they won't, so the killing goes on and on. Truth hurts ifor....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

The Israeli writer Uri Avnery has compared the suffering of the people of Gaza to a "Palestinian Massada." [see Counterpoint ].
On one side you have a well trained army with jet bombers,helicopter gunships, huge tanks,sophisticated machine guns and naval warships....on the other side there are poorly trained and lightly armed fighters with kalashnikovs and grenade launchers....and the Palestinians are taking a pounding.But still the Israelis cannot win.
The Israeli army has kidnapped dozens of elected Palestinian authority members from the West Bank refugee camps and towns but the prospect of occupying Gaza with its million plus population is a different prospect altogether hence it is starving and terrorising its civilian residents including the children.
The Israeli military does not abide by the Geneva Convention and a humanitarian crisis is enveloping Gaza.But still the Palestinians refuse to be beaten into submission.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:33 PM

When are you going over to help out, ifor?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:52 AM

ifor, go away and read up on what it was that brought about the creation of the armed Jewish resistance in Palestine in the 1920's.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

reply to guest
What a stupid and idiotic question. We have seen the sort of "help"given by all those American born Zionists who now strut around the West Bank settlements with their uzi machine guns slung over their shoulders.You know them , the ones who have built   [with the protection of the Israeli state ] dozens of illegal fortified settlements and camps on land grabbed from the Palestinians that they hate so much. They are the ones who drive around on their Israeli only roads and have stolen the water from the indiginous Palestinians. They are the ones who have built an apartheid wall so big it makes the Berlin Wall look like a picket fence.
They are the ones who have stolen houses in the middle of Hebron and throw rocks,fire weapons and hurl bags of piss at their Palestinian neighbours..you know them ...one of them went into the Tomb of the Patricians with his assault rifle [issued by the Israeli army ] and opened fire killing dozens of muslim worshippers and injuring over a hundred others before he was overpowered and killed.
Those Zionists have had their lives distorted and twisted by the belief that the Palestinians have no place in the homeland.

I live in the village where my mother was born.I have no designs on any other man's home,land, water, orchards ,business, city, town,beach or human rights...or country
The Zionists have created hell on earth for the Palestinians and there are many people including non Zionist Jews who are willing to speak up for battered and bruised but unbeaten Palestinians.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:10 AM

Nice rhetoric. No fact, but very good speechifying. From the way you talk, I figured you'd be on a plane to go help the people you support so much.

The instances of killing you cite are true. Of course you mention nothing about the killings done by Palestinians. The bombings of school busses for example. But then it seems your memory is very selective.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:13 AM

ifor stands for International Fellowship of Reconciliation. Why that name, ifor. You are reconciliatory?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

Reply to Guest
The war against the Palestinians has been waged by the Zionists and the Israeli state for many,many decades ...for years before the state of Israel came into existence.

From the very first the Zionists had no intention of recognising the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people.

They attacked them physically and then later shot them,baynotted them or drove them out of their homeland.You know that!

The massacres committed by the Israelis have been many from Deir Yassin to Qana ,from the Beirut camps to the the slaughter at Jenin.This year alone over 200 have been killed by the Israelis in Gaza.The radio reported 6 blown up in Gaza this morning including 2 women and 2 children ,murdered by a huge bomb dropped on a house.

Israeli has one of the most powerful killing machines in the world and uses it to terrorise the Palestinians. It has been armed and funded by the USA .

I am certainly not concilitaory when I see the way the Palestinians have been slaughtered, pauperised and terrorised by Israel and those strutting Zionist paramilitaries who delight in bullying their Palestinians neighbours.There are now some 400000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank.In 1967 there were none.
They have seized land ,fields,orchards,blown up homes [thousands have been bulldozered or demolished in the past few years] and those humiliating checkpoints [like fortresses ] built across the land.
The one act of conciliation I would approve of is to see the millions of exiled Palestinians return to their homeland ...under the present Israeli regime it aint going to happen ...
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM

The one act of conciliation I would approve of is to see the millions of exiled Palestinians return to their homeland

You know that would spark off a civil way between the Jewish and Palastinian inhabitants of the new State in about 5 minutes flat, and to paraphrase from many of your statements, all the Zionists are armed to the teeth, are a highly trained killing machine, and will never give up. You say there at least 400,000 Zionists*. So you want to spark a war with one side with modern weapons, and the other with little more than rocks and sticks( to paraphrase from you again) Go look up the Battle of Omdurman to find out what would happen to your beloved Palastinians.....

There is too much hated and spilt blood on both sides for a one state solution to work for decades.


*There are now some 400 000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank Plus, presumably a few more in Israel proper.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:09 PM

The Palestinians have not been able to live in peace on their lands for decades.
One of the problems is that the Zionists are intent on stealing [and that is what it is ] yet more land from their neighbours whether it is the Golan Heights from Syria or the annexation of the West Bank itself, apart from a few encircled Palestinian bantustans controlled by the Israelis with their guns and armoured bulldozers and fortified checkpoints all designed to make life as hellish as possible for the Palestinians who have lived there for hundreds ,if not thousands of years.
The future will not be forever Zionist!

There are many Jewish people across the world, secular and religious, who are appalled by the injustice and oppression being meted out to the Palestinians.
They also know that this state of conflict and oppression has not always existed.It was exported to Palestine by the early Zionists.In pre Zionist times Jews did live in peace and security with their Palestinian neighbours for much of the time and that sense of inter community security could be achieved again...but certainly not in a Zionist state which is intent on pounding the Palestinians even further.
The existing Zionist state of Israel is an ugly,bigotted and thuggish state .It is highly militarised and intolerant .It imprisons children,separates families, occupies territories it has no legal title to,bulldozes whole neighbourhoods into the ground,steals water, introduces highly discriminatory laws,bombs civilians, shuts down universities, breaks the limbs of teenagers and acts as a lawless aggressor.
The 400,000 Zionist paramilitary colonialists in the West Bank should leave as they are a menace .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called for a solidarity vigil to oppose the Israeli attack on Gaza which has led to the deaths of over 50 civilians in Gaza during the past 2 weeks and the starving of its population.
The vigil will take place this evening from 5.30 until 7.30 in Whitehall ,London outside the Foreign Office which has conspicuously failed to protest at this onslaught against the civilian residents of Gaza.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:58 PM

Nine members of a Palestinian family were killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on their house today in Gaza.Seven of them were young people or children aged between seven and 19 years of age.The intended target ,the father ,an activist with Hamas escaped.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:17 PM

The BBC just reported the same bomb as ' 9 were killed, including 7 children, when their house, the home of a senior Hamas millitant, was bombed. He was injured.'

If it was a Palastinian blowing up a bus full of civilans aiming at the Israeli soilder or policeman on it, the guests wouldn't even think to mention it.

BOTH SIDES VIOLENCE IS EQUALLY EVIL. What part of this is too complex for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM

During the 2nd world war nazi Germany invaded and occupied much of Europe and used terror tactics and repressive meaures to maintain control.The resistance used armed violence to fight back including assassinations, bombing of installations,wrecking of trains etc.
I don't think it is possible to equate the violence of the oppressor with the armed reistance of the oppressed.
Is the Israeli pilot who drops a huge bomb on a crowded street slaughtering dozens so very different from the suicide bomber wearing a bomb belt?
The Israeli pilot after he has aimed and fired goes home for his tea and flies and kills again.The Palestinian belt bomber driven in most cases by despair or revenge kills himself or herself in the act of killing others.Both sets of killings are disgusting and terrible.I never hear Zionists calling for the jet bombers to be disarmed or the tanks to be dismantled.
Look at the history of Zionist aggression against the Palestinian people......from the very first they were determined to drive out the Palestinians from their farms and cities.This was Zionist policy from the very beginning.
They claimed ,for public consumption that Palestine was a land without a people and the Zionists were a people without a lansd.How wrong they were but how they fooled world opinion ...at least for a while.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM

Major Terrorist Attacks in Israel

Link here.

If you think there's not enough blame to go around, think again. Your anti-Israeli position is a mask for soemthing else, IMO. Diatribe mostly. However, you ifor are not interested in Justice unless that Justice includes the decimation of Israel. I don't know what that makes you, but it isn't something very nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM

Guest ifor:

Your rants indicate an existing bias against Israel and the Israeli people. You use Zionist as a term of opprobrium whereas it indicates in fact someone who is in favor of the establishment of a homeland for the Jews as a people. To say that Israel has a Zionist leadership is a self conflict: Israel has an Israeli leadership, because, whether or not you approve of it (I gather you do not), that homeland for the Jews has been established.

You not only have a selective memory for history, but a selective memory for those you wish to address on this forum thread. Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:16 PM

Suicide and Other Bombing Attacks in Israel Since the Declaration ...

Google the above; the list is a long one. Attacks against citizens is disgusting, whether those attacks are initiated by the 'Palestinians' or Israelis. However, your wont to single out Israel reeks of a hatred for Jews--not Zionists or Israelis, but Jews. I see no more point discussing anything with you ifor. You are one sad piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:01 PM

What a sanctimonious crew you Zionists are! A reign of terror has been conducted against the Palestinians for decades.Go on admit it!!

Terror was waged by Zionist paramilitary groups before the state of Israel was founded in 1948 and by the state of Israel and by armed Zionist paramilitary groups since that time.

Gaza is starved ! The West Bank is illegally occupied! The refugee camps are attacked ! A quarter of the Palestinian Authority are in Israeli prisons.Thousands of Palestinians are being illegally imprisoned !
Hundreds of children are in prison! The Golan Heights are Syrian and are under Israeli occupation.East Jesusalem is being squeezed and surrounded by illegal settlements! The apartheid wall is well named and a monstrosity!The children of Gaza are terrorised and malnourished!
Arial Sharon was held responsible for the massacres of thousands of innocent women,children and the elderly and Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982. Was he punished ? Was he hell!
And then there are the chums of Israel....The fascist gangs in the Lebanon, the racist crew in apartheid South Africa....the Death Squad bosses in South America...the Neo Cons in the White House and the Pentagon.
One of the biggest critics of the state of Israel was the late Tony Cliff who was born into a Zionist family in Palestine in 1917. He was a determined opponent of Zionism and a supporter of a free Palestine for all his life . He saw with his own eyes the sectarianism and division and Iinjustice that Zionism had caused .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM

Ifor, is there any real or hypothetical Palastinain action that you can actually bring yourself to say is wrong? A suicide bomber in a bus load of civilians? A truck bomb in a Israeli childrens hospital? Nerve gas on the streets of Tel Aviv?























Or the ultimate crime, that can never be forgiven, recognising that Israel has a right to exist. Surely at least one of those must be beyond the pale.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:22 PM

In 1946 the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up by a Zionist gang made up of Irgun and Haganah members.91 people including Jews ,Palestinians and Europeans were slaughtered .Many others were wounded when the 7 story hotel was destroyed.This was an atrocity carried out by Zionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:27 PM

Yes it was. And that type of thing is deplorable. It is not just deplorable when it is done by Israel, Zionists or Jews. Is is deplorable when it is done by Hamas, Palestinians, IRA, RUC, Red Brigade, USA.

So ifor, have the 'Palestinians' done anything wrong? Ever? Just a simple answer would do before you rant again. IS IT OK WHEN PALESTINIANS KILL ISRAELI KIDS?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM

A villager from Safsaf [now called Sifsufa ] gave an oral testimony about what happened in her Palestinian village when it was captured in October 1948.

"As we lined up ,a few jewish soldiers ordered four girls to accompany them to carry water for the soldiers.Instead they took them to our empty houses and raped them.About 70 of our men were blindfolded and shot to death ,one after another ,in front of us."

quoted in David Gilmour ...1980..".Dispossessed ..The Ordeal of the Palestinians.".London Sphere Books.

Message to Peace
Your bile badly contravenes your name.There will be no peace in Palestine while the people of that country continue to be pulverised by one of the world's most powerful armies.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

It's your bile that makes me want to puke. The notion that when terrorists kill innocents (but they are YOUR terrorists killing a people you don't like) it's OK. NO, ifor. You are a piece of crap. You don't mind Israeli kids being killed, do you? So it's not about right or wrong for you, it's about killing Jews. Piss of and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:58 PM

IS IT OK WHEN PALESTINIANS KILL ISRAELI KIDS?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:14 PM

ifor likely thinks so.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

Guest ifor:

You have posted two times since my last post which was directed straight to you. I repeat it once again. It should be easy to understand it as written below but I'll try to put it in one syllable words if that is what you require:

Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM :

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:32 PM

I think Ifor must be a politician. There are various simple questions that have been asked to him, and he doesn't answer them, he just carries on with whatever he wanted to say. Lets try another one.....

Ifor, are you an early version of a computer debating system? Your programmers have got the diatribe right, but not the actually answering questions bit. Is there a better version available yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:51 PM

In 1946 the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up by a Zionist gang made up of Irgun and Haganah members.91 people including Jews ,Palestinians and Europeans were slaughtered .Many others were wounded when the 7 story hotel was destroyed.This was an atrocity carried out by Zionists.

The King David Hotel was the British military headquarters. The argument could be made that it was therefore a military target.

Be that as it may, the Irgun warned the British military commanders well in advance of the bombing and advised that the hotel be evacuated. The British refused to evacuate the hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:23 AM

The trouble with the Zionist supporters on Mudcat and elsewhere is that they will not face up to the history of Palestine.
The Zionists have spent decades slaughtering the Palestinians and expelling them from their homes and land and indeed their country.
The state of Israel was founded on Palestinian land.The Palestinian people had to be terrorised,slaughtered and exiled for that to happen.
In 1967 the Palestinians on the West Bank faced a further onslaught with the invasion by Israel.Who were these Palestinians? In the main they were the refugees who had fled from what is now Israel.
Since then they have been shelled,bombed,shot at and imprisoned.This is the daily fare for Palestinians.At the heart of the matter is the stealing of Palestinian land by Israel.
As stated previously the Zionist presence on the West Bank in 1967 was precisely nil.Now there are 400000 armed Zionist paramilitary colonialists who steal land, shoot into Palestinian villages , build the apartheid wall and humiliate the Palestinians on a daily basis.
The Zionist response to a criticism of this on this thread is to demand the recognition of the 1967 borders.They show no concern or understanding for the Palestinian people ...the indiginous population of Palestine...How could they? Zionism has always trained its adherents in the belief that the land is God given to the Zionist people and others, despite being settled there for hundreds if not thousands of years, must depart.
There will never be peace for Palestinians and Israelis while Palestinian land is stolen ,their identity denied and their right to return refused.
The Zionists demand that the victim apologises to the aggressor!And so the Palestinians fight back!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

Ten of the 27 dead in last night's attack on the Lebanon by Israeli armed forces were children.They were bombed from the air as was Beirut International Airport.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:28 AM

You are a hate-filled person who does NOT care that children die. You needed no brain washing because in your case a light rinse would have done.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:29 AM

Must be morning in the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

The trouble with the Palestinian supporters on Mudcat and elsewhere is that they will not face up to the history of Israel.
The Palestinians have spent decades slaughtering the Jews and attempting to expel them from their homes and land and indeed their country.
The state of Israel was founded on the land of the Israelites. The Jewish people had been terrorised,slaughtered and exiled for centuries.
In 1967 the Israelis were surrounded on all sides by their enemies who promised to destroy them. They fought back and only in this way did they survive.
Since then they have been attacked on all fronts and all age groups as male, female, soldier, tourist, schoolchild.This is daily fare for Israelis.At the heart of the matter is the refusal of the Arab countries to acknowledge the presence of Israel.
Now armed Palestinian paramilitary terrorists steal onto Israeli land, shoot guns and rockets into Israeli villages, kill and dismember their own people who are fingered as 'collaborators' and continue to attempt to defeat Israel via a campaign of terror.
The Palestinian response to a criticism of this on this thread is to demand the de-recognition of Israel within any borders whatsoever.They show no concern or understanding for the Israeli people ...the indiginous population of Israel...How could they? Zealous Muslim teachings and the surrounding Arab states, often using UN funds, have been used to indoctrinate young Palestinians into an uneducated rage against people they do not know nor are encouraged to understand, and give them a vain hope that they can move into a somehow depopulated land at some time in the future.
There will never be land nor peace for Palestinians while they wage war on the people of Israel by any means.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:02 AM

The history of Palestine? is the first world war far enough back, or shall I start with the big bang?

Under the British mandate following the first world war, there was widespread jewish immigration to some areas of Palestine. There was only one reliable census taken, in 1931. All the others are less certain, so most figures cannot be taken as exactly accurate.

Areas of Jewish settlement had a growth rate of 157% in Arab population between 1931 and 1945, while in those with few or no Jewish settlers, the mean growth rate of Palestinian Arab population was 127%. Overall, the mean growth rate of Palestinian Arab population was 142% from 1931 to 1945. The urban areas Haifa had the highest growth rate, probably due to British port activity. There was a shift in population from the south and urban centers to the North. and Jerusalem, Ramla and Tulkarm had the highest growth rates.

So this is the Zionist plan to drive the Palastinians out?

From a balanced and well researched piece

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM

ifor,

"There are now some 400000 Zionists living illegally on the West Bank.In 1967 there were none."


I am glad to see that you, if not CarolC, haqve admitted that the Arabs have ethnically cleansed the Jews from the West Bank during the period 1948 to 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:30 AM

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS A WAR CRIME!
Israel is intensifying its collective punishment of the Palestinian people in Gaza ,one of the most densely populated areas on earth.At least 51 Palestinians have been killed and around 150 wounded ,the majority of them civilians, mostly children,since Israel launched its attack.
At Al Awada hospital in Jabalia refugee camp 5 children have been brought in shot in the chest or abdomen.These children are aged between 12 and 15.
In the east of Gaza an Israeli shell killed a mother and two of her children..
According to a Palestinian network coordinator ,"Since the 8th June over 60 Palestinians have been killed and 200 wounded ."
These include men,women and children.
Gaza is under siege and warfare is being waged indiscriminately by Israel.The power plant has been blown up and there is a severe shortage of drinking water.Much of the water that is available is contaminated and dirty water has also polluted agricultural land.Raw sewage is making life almost impossible for the residents of Gaza.
Hospitals are working by emergency generators only and many workers have not been paid for a month or more.
Merkava tanks have penetrated into Gaza and homes and other buildings have been shelled and wrecked.Already before the latest attack some 70% of Gazans were living below the poverty line .The attack by Israel only adds to the prevailing humanitarian crisis.
Sonic booms are terrifying the children of Gaza who are already suffering from stress and malnutrition. Bedwetting problems are commonplace.
Gaza is a prison with freedom of movement denied. Residents have been used as human shields as bulldozers have demolished homes and uprooted gardens.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:37 AM

Forty civilians have been killed in the Israeli attack on the Lebanon including 10 members of one family and 7 members of another family in Southern Lebanon.
Israeli planes and warships have entered Lebanese airspace and territorial waters and bombs are raining down.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

Ten civilians were injured when an Israeli missile hit the Palestine foreign ministry in Gaza yesterday.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

Let us hope they will stop killing Jewish men women and children which precipitates this present war. Remember, the Israelis pulled out of Gaza, and were then attacked by terrorists for their trouble. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn... to quote the words of a song.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 12:40 PM

Reply to Guest
The Israelis pulled out of Gaza because they could not hold it with 8000 Zionist colonialists trying to subdue one and a half million Palestinians in Gaza...of course while they were there the Israelis made the Palestinians lives a misery stealing their water,land,building checkpoints and shooting the Palestinians when and where they could.

They also made a mockery of the pull out.Israel still controls the air space ,land borders and coastal waters of Gaza.It even controls the Gaza crossing into Egypt.Hundreds are stranded there as I write.

Israel has killed hundreds in Gaza since the pullout with shellings,missile strikes and naval bombardment being prominent.The capture of the Israeli army corporal [with the french passport ] was in response to these Israeli attacks.
Now of course it is trying to pound Gaza to bits.
ifor
You quote from the song "Where have all the flowers gone"... great song....there's another one from the same period which is perhaps more pertinent
"We were waste deep in the big muddy but the damn fool kept saying press on"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:08 PM

Science has just discovered that if you say the same thing hundreds of times you commit it to memory. Glad to see that science is right.

So, is it OK for 'Palestinians' to kill Israeli kids?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM

More than 70 Katyusha rockets have hit Israel in the past 24 hours, the IDF said.

Missiles critically injured one person and hurt at least 10 others in Safed, about 13 miles (20 kilometers) from the Lebanese border, which local officials said not been hit by Hezbollah rockets since 1972. (Watch the rocket's explosion and town chaos -- 1:45)

Also in northern Israel, a woman was killed and 15 people hurt in a rocket attack in Nahariya, and at least 38 people were injured when rockets hit the Arab village of Carmiel, Israeli ambulance services said.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Guest ifor:

You have posted two times since my last post which was directed straight to you. You seemed to indicate that you do not accept Israel under any circumstances within any boundries. You also do not seem to have the intestinal fortitude to come right out and say it. So I repeat it once again.:

Let me repeat my question directed to you from 10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM
and on 12 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM :

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

A simple 'NO' would suffice. Following that it would be useful to see what you DO bring to the party other than repetitious bunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 01:51 PM

GUEST,ifor is also
                                  GUEST,Walt
                                  GUEST,David
                                  GUEST,Freddie
                                  GUEST,Albert
                                  and a host of others (different threads, not this one)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:59 PM

Guess the reason they still control the airspace is to stop the weapons and missiles being delivered by those other peace loving bastards who surround Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

"The most tangible threats stem from the Katyusha rockets launched by terrorist groups from within Lebanon (the Hizbullah and various Palestinian factions) capable of striking throughout northern Israel, and the Kassam rockets which are currently limited to the Gaza Strip and have a range of about 9 kilometers. Palestinian acquisition of Katyusha rockets would threaten Israel's entire population. "

"The weapon was not accurate but was extremely effective in saturation bombardment. Katyushas were often massed in very large numbers to create a shock effect on enemy forces."

(28 May)"A Katyusha rocket was fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel for the first time on Tuesday, raising fears that Palestinian terror groups have obtained additional weaponry that the IDF had yet to face in its war against Gaza-based terror.

The Katyusha attack, the army said, was a "clear escalation" on the Gaza front and demanded a quick and harsh response.

Unlike the homemade, short-range Kassam rockets frequently launched at Israel, Katyushas have a range of close to 20 kilometers and can carry over 20 kilograms of explosives.

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for firing the Katyusha, which landed in an open field south of Ashkelon.

Since the disengagement from the Gaza Strip this past summer, the defense establishment has raised concerns that Palestinians would succeed in smuggling Katyusha rockets into Gaza from Egypt. The Rafah border crossing, officials have said, was left "wide open" by European observers and the Palestinians allowing for the entry of senior Iranian and Syrian terror suspects.

The Katyusha fired Tuesday, military officials estimated, was smuggled into Gaza through the Egyptian border. Egyptian soldiers have taken up positions along the border since Israel pulled out of the Philadelphi corridor in August, but to Israel's dismay they have not yet clamped down on weapons smuggling into Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

"Katyushas also fell on Thursday morning in Kfar Nasi in the Galilee and in Kibbutz Mahanayim, and along with the rockets in Karmiel, signified an increase in the range of Katyusha rockets to 20-30 kilometers. There were no immediate reports of casualties in the attacks. Hizbullah said that in some of its attacks it was using a rocket called "Thunder 1" for the first time, which may have a longer range than older Katyushas.

On Thursday morning alone, there were confirmed Katyusha attacks on Nahariya, Rosh Pina, Kibbutz Hagoshrim, Kibbutz Mishmar Hayarden, Gadot, Kfar Nasi, Beit Hillel, Kibbutz Mahanayim, Kibbutz Kabri, Mount Hermon, Netiv Haasarah, Mount Meron, Shlomi, Zar'it. "

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:32 PM

Dateline Nazareth....Yes, THAT one

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 03:46 PM

I think that the UN should be involved in a big way RIGHT NOW. The situation will lead to a hot war (it's a barely warm war right now). I expect that if any surrounding countries decide to mass armor or to mobilize against Israel, the world will wish it had intervened, because the weapons that get used will affect the world and the course of world history. This is quickly becoming more than a squabble. It is VERY serious, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:34 PM

Israel is unwilling to involve the UN in war against the Palestinians....one oly has to think f the UN resolutions it would have to obey...tably the withdrawal from the illegally occupied Palestinian West Bank [RESOLUTION 242 ] .

Also those who remember these things will recall how Israeli artillery slaughtered 109 Lebanese civilians inluding many women and children sheltering at a UN checkpoint called Qana.

Only last week the newly formed UN Human Rights commission voted to condemn Israel actions in Gaza only to have the vote vetoed by surprise,surprise, the USA supported by Britain, France and Germany.
On saturday there will be a protest against the attack on Gaza outside the BBC ,Manchester at 1pm.
ifor

.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:45 PM

This message has come from Gaza

"Dear friends everywhere
I live in al Twam between Beit Lahia and Jabalia camp.The Israeli troops are moving towards the area where I live .They are 2 km away.In the last 2 days 35 persons were killed and 120 injured .The Israeli troops are shooting and shelling randomly the houses of the civilians....Now while I am writing this email at 10pm ,the tanks are about 500 metres from my house .In the coming hours my home will be in the invaded and occupied areas. I do not know what might happen later.My children are hearing the shootings and explosions.They understand that they are exposed to a threat from which noone can protect them....The only thing I thought I could do was to send this appeal... and hope .
Safwat Diab

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM

The USA has vetoed a UN motion on Israel to halt its attack on Gaza.The motion was put by Qatar on behalf of a dozen other Arab states.Britain abstained.

david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:03 PM

'"Dear friends everywhere
I live in al Twam between Beit Lahia and Jabalia camp.The Israeli troops are moving towards the area where I live .They are 2 km away.In the last 2 days 35 persons were killed and 120 injured .The Israeli troops are shooting and shelling randomly the houses of the civilians....Now while I am writing this email at 10pm ,the tanks are about 500 metres from my house .In the coming hours my home will be in the invaded and occupied areas. I do not know what might happen later.My children are hearing the shootings and explosions.They understand that they are exposed to a threat from which noone can protect them....The only thing I thought I could do was to send this appeal... and hope .
Safwat Diab'

That was not written by an ESL Palestinian. In fact, it is a clumcsy attempt to imitate the style of someone who has English as a second language. Cut the bullshit, Guest,David.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM

Have you been in touch with Rawia Hamam?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

Also, knowing that you and the ifor character are involved with an organization that works directly with Palestinians makes it even more troubling that you don't see Israeli children as being human, worthy of safety from terrorist organizations. What a sick bunch you are. Bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

GCMHP mean anything to you, ma'am.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM

I have but lightly scanned many of the intervening contributions to the thread I started, and I hope that I thereby do no-one an injustice. I think that what I was asking to discuss
has been obscured by simple Israel/Palestine ranting.

However, what I asked seems to me to have been underlined by the intervening Lebanon-Israel events.

Hamas (terrorists/freedom fighters) kidnapped one Israeli soldier [who is of course by being a soldier a military target]. This is not the act of the Palestinian authority nor the act of the Palestinian people.   

Israel attacks Palestinian (Gaza) infrastructure and civilian targets.

Hezbollah (terrorists/freedom fighters) kidnap two Israeli soldiers [who are of course by being soldiers military targets]. This is not the act of the Lebanese government nor the act of the Lebanese people - although there may be some linkage.

Israel attacks Lebanese infrastructure and civilian targets, blames the government and threatens invasion.



Does no-one see the disparity? I may have to eschew the BS zone if I can find no rationality in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

Richard: You are right, the topic has ranged a bit, but did you really expect it not to?

you wrote:-one Israeli soldier [who is of course by being a soldier a military target].

a military target is such in a time of war. Israel had unilaterally departed Gaza. If there's a war on, you have to acknowledge two (or more) sides to it, and a right to respond. Israel wants her soldier back.

I agree that the Israelis seems to be on a right tear. Reminds me of a bull in the arena that's been bloodied. Possibly they are facing the same dilemma that mechanized, organized forces face against guerrila tactics, they can't be seen to be successful, even when they are.

As to your second sentence: This is not the act of the Palestinian authority nor the act of the Palestinian people-

unfortunately the Palestinian people elected Hamas so it probably is an act of the authority with the tacit approval of the Palestinian people.

It plays into the hands of the extremists everywhere. If you recall what was going on just before things went to hell (this time) Abu Mazin was wringing concessions from Hamas as to acknowledging Israel's right to exist.

As with Afghanistan and Iraq, the terror tactics are being arranged by masters. Check out the classic: "Battle For Algiers". It's all happened before and it will keep happening as long as these tactics get people what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM

The notion that Mamas or Hezbollah are NOT working for the Palestinian Authority is strange. Countries that harbour/aid people who attack you are your enemies. The strike at the airport: keep in mind that it landed both civilian AND military aircraft.

That said, I think the Israelis have 'lost' it. They are doing themselves incredible damage in terms of 'public relations' to say nothing of the increasing civilian death toll. The US veto of the UN wish to restrain Israel was a bad move, IMO.

As to attacking Gaza: The israelis have had terrorist attacks coming from there for years. I think until the Palestinians are not treated as pawns by the Arab countries and Israel starts treating Palestinians as people, and until folks like ifor and his crew recognize that Israelis are also people who 60 years ago were themselves refugees, then this present 'action' will NOT stop. However, it must, because what we are seeing is the beginning of a very different war--one that cannot help but escalate. Please keep in mind that if Israel is backed to the sea, they WILL use nuclear weapons. The chance of Armageddon is here and now. I think people who favour one side or the other had best take a step back (and I include myself in that statement) and realize that what is now beginning may become impossible to stop without loss of life that will be numbered in hundreds of thousands or millions. This is no longer brinksmanship. Right now, political postures do not mean a damned thing. The lack of UN intervention, the lack of restraint by Israel AND the various terrorist organizations that target Israel, may well lead to what we have feared (for most of my life anyway): specifically, nuclear war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

Reply to Peace
The letter from Gaza was printed in yesterday's Guardian newspaper [page 12 ]It came as an email to the writer of the article Ahdaf Soueif who has just written a book Mezzaterra..Fragments from the Common Ground.
A few words about the Israeli pull out from Gaza.It did withdraw some 8000 armed Zionist colonialists from Gaza.Their presence being unsustainable among the million plus Palestinian refugees that make up its population.However,since the pullout Israel has continued to attack Gaza with missiles,naval warships tanks and warplanes.Some 200 residents have been killed in quite indiscriminate attacks including the family on the beach a few weeks ago.Incidentally ,many of the Zionists evacuated from Gaza are now living on the illegally occupied West Bank and adding to the Palestinian humiliation there.

The Zionist occupation of Gazza [itself a huge refugee area ] was a study of breathtaking arrogance.The small number of Zionists controlled almost the whole of the beachfront for almost 40 years!No Palestinians allowed.They stole the best land for their settlements.They controlled the scarce water supplies and ensured that Israeli cattle got more that Paleestinian residents.They chopped up Gaza into zones making daily travel of only a few miles a torture and this went on for decades.Palestinians could be kept for hours at these checkpoints which were also closed down completely at times in acts of collective punishment.Gaza was used as a kind of giant prison an experience which the Israelis intend to continue by slightly different means.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:55 AM

ifor, I think you'll also recognize that Gaza has housed members of 'organizations' that attack Israel. They cannot do that without the silence of Palestinians. In fact, I think Israel should withdraw. But they will not until they receive their soldiers back. The IDF will not leave its people behind. Wrere the decision mine, I would immediately return the soldiers, stop the Hezbollah/Hamas attacks, and take away the Israeli rationale for having 'invaded'. However, I think that the people pulling the strings--in this case Arab people pulling the strings--are more than willing to sacrifice Palestinians, as many as necessary. Because their aim is the destabilization and destruction of Israel, not the formation of a sustainable, healthy Palestinian homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM

PS,

ifor, having looked a bit around the internet, I am quite sure of a few things about you. One of those things is that you have real feelings for the Palestinian people. You are serious, and I do not doubt that you really believe in what you say--I think you would be the same in real life. Please know this: I can respect that, but please also know that my own feelings for the Jewish homeland are likely as strong as are yours for Palestinians and their wish for a homeland. I do not think it right that noncombatants are killed in wars, any wars. I extend that abhorance to the death of Palestinian AND Israeli noncombatants. I think it is just wrong. I am sorry that you do not see things the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM

Richard B I share all of your concerns and have been following the arguments on this thread.

here is a link to the article Published on Thursday, July 13, 2006 by the Guardian , with the eyewitness account by Safwat Diab of the impact of the invading Israeli troops.

It also comments:

In October 2004, at the European Social Forum in London, an Israeli air-force pilot, Yonatan Shapira, called for sanctions against Israel. A year earlier, Shapira had refused to bomb Palestinian towns and had influenced 26 of his comrades-in-arms to do the same. He spoke of his love for his country and of his conviction that it was on the road to self-destruction. He had come to London to ask for help. Europe was Israel's only hope, he said: it must impose sanctions on his country and force it to make a real peace. About 3,000 people were on their feet cheering him.

And yes, I support Israel's right to exist within the 1967 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

There are many Jewish people around the world who are also opposed to the Zionist project in Israel.Take Rabbi Moishe Teitelbaum for example who was buried recently having died at the age of 91 in New York.
He was a leader of the ultra orthodox Satmar group of Hassidic Jews and was an outspoken opponent of Zionism....In his view establishing a Jewish secular entity in the Holy Land befor the advent of the Messiah was heresy
"Zionism has caused terrible bloodletting " announced Teitelbaum on avisit to Jerusalem.
The bloodletting continues with dozens of civilians killed in the past few days in the Lebanon including 17 members of two families.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:55 AM

ISRAEL OUT OF GAZA,THE WEST BANK AND THE LEBANON!
A public meeting has been called in London this coming monday 17th July at 7pm in the Friends Meeting House , Euston Rd Central London.
Among the speakers will be

                George Galloway MP
                Jeremy Corbyn MP
          Janice Shallice Stop The War Coalition
The meeting will be demanding an end to the onslaught against the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank and the people of Lebanon.
                  All welcome

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:22 PM

Haifa: Too Long In Exile!

The city of Haifa in northern Israel has been attacked by Hezbollah fighters using missiles from positions in the Lebanon.

Haifa at the start of the 20th century had a poulation that was over 90% palestinian arab ...both muslim and christian.The Jewish population at that time in Haifa was about 4 % of the city.

Over the next few decades the Jewish population increased sharply because of the Zionist expansion in the country which was under British mandate.By 1948 the Jewish population was still under 50%.

With the declaration of the state of Israel the city was invaded by a 5000 strong Jewish force called the Carmeli Brigade and many of its Palestinian residents fled.They and their children have never been allowed to return despite having long established roots,property etc in the city.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM

"They and their children have never been allowed to return despite having long established roots,property etc in the city."

And the 820,000 Jews driven out of Arab countries- they are not entitled to be resettled in the land that the 640,000 Arabs who fled abandoned? Try blaming the ARAB nations that did not allow the refugees to settle as citizens.


Or do you insist that Jews are not human beings, who are entitled to the same justice as Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:38 PM

" Tehran should be called to account in the U.N. Security Council not only for its program to enrich uranium but also for its support of Hezbollah. Damascus, which hosts Hezbollah and Hamas, should also come under renewed international pressure, including sanctions. In all the diplomacy, the false lure of "evenhandedness" must not be allowed to obscure the fact that Hezbollah and its backers have instigated the current fighting and should be held responsible for the consequences."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Zionism did poison inter faith relationships in the Middle East ...and as yet there has been no recovery.
People who have a history of living in a land without interruption for over a thousand years simply will not accept a declaration from others [Zionists ] that they have a God given right to an exclusive state.
That declaration was given some legitimacy by Lord Balfour in 1917 which is all the more troubling as the man was a well known anti semite.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:42 PM

"In the Lebanon crisis we have a terrifying glimpse of the future: Iran and its radical allies are pushing toward war. That's the chilling reality behind this week's events. On Tuesday the Iranians spurned an American offer of talks on their nuclear program; on Wednesday their Hezbollah proxy committed what Israel rightly called "an act of war." The radicals want to lure America and Israel deeper into the killing ground, confident that they have the staying power to prevail. We should not play their game."


And the PRIMARY victims of Iran and Hezbollah will be the Palestinian people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

"that they have a God given right to an exclusive state"

So, I will assume that you support a return of all lands to the Jewish owners forcably removed in 1948 throughout the Arab world.


Question for you: Who won WW I, the Allied powers or the Ottoman Empire?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:07 PM

"In the past two days, about 200 rockets have been fired from Lebanon at Israeli targets, according to The Associated Press.

On Thursday, two missiles fired from Lebanon hit the center of Haifa, Israel's third-largest city -- extending beyond the range of any missiles fired at Israel from Lebanon in the past.

Israeli ambassador to the U.N. Dan Gillerman said many missiles that have been fired from Lebanon toward the northern Israel were made in Iran. ...
"Many of the long-range missiles fired into Israel in the recent days were Iranian missiles made by the same regime that is now trying to possess nuclear weapons," Gillerman said at the U.N. on Friday.

When asked by CNN what role Syria or Iran may have played in the current crisis, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said it would be "strange" for Hezbollah to have "done this alone." "

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

I can picture the scene now.The Palestinian family hiding in a cellar of an apartment block somewhere in crowded Gaza. Israeli tank shells are tearing through the thin breezeblock walls upstairs , the warjets are making supersonic passes a few hundred feet above the rooftops, somewhere out at sea an unseen destroyer has fired its big guns and an apache helicopter is shooting its missile into a tower block because yet another Hamas leader is reputed to be hiding with his extended family there on the third floor.
A bomb bursts just outside, showering debris on the Palestinian family still cowering in the cellar....yes....and what does the head of the family shout out...
"Curses on Hezbollah and Iran the murderers of my people???"
Somehow I just dont see it!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:26 PM

Israel is hitting almost exclusively civilian targets in Gaza and Lebanon. What's more, despite a huge amount of destruction to civilian targets (both human as well as infrastructure) it is somehow, almost "magically" managing to miss hitting the guerrilla targets it says it's actually going after (while destroying all of the civilian structures all around them). Either Israelis are incredibly bad shots, or they're doing it on purpose.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/14072006/2/world-three-lebanese-killed-55-wounded-israeli-air-strikes-lebanon.html

I don't happen to believe the Israelis are such bad shots, myself.

This is, of course, more collective punishment. Which was, as I mentioned before, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

The Palestinian Ministry of Health has reported that the Israeli armed forces are using a type of toxic or radioactive shell in its attack on the civilian population of Gaza.Some 250 people have been reported wounded so far in the shooting and shelling and the Ministry of Health spokesman said that the Israelis are using a new type of weapon which is causing serious burns and amputations of limbs.
He called for the International Community to raise its collective voice at the illegal use of these weapons on civilian non combatants.
This item can be found in full on the Palestine Solidarity Campaign's website.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM

I can just picture the scene. The helicopter and fast jet pilots are wondering why they're expected to share their airspace with their own sides artillery fire.

Doing so kills pilots, so it's generally avoided.

The destroyers big guns, by the way, are at most 155mm, the same size as most western self propelled artillery pieces, or only a little bigger than a tank main gun.

And the Palastinians might say some thing along the lines of 'Why can't our fighters live somewhere else'


There's never only one side to a picture

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

From the link in my last post...

"Israeli planes set fire to fuel storage tanks at Beirut airport late Thursday and at the Jiye power station south of Beirut early Friday. They blasted the highway between Beirut and Damascus at several places, forcing motorists to take mountain side roads to the Syrian capital.

The fighter bombers also struck overpasses, intersections and residential buildings around Hezbollah's security headquarters in the Beirut suburb of Haret Hreik. But they missed the headquarters itself.

An AP photographer who toured the area Friday said he saw no traces of damage or devastation around Hezbollah's security building.

In Jerusalem, the Israeli military spokesman's office said the Hezbollah security headquarters was targeted in the air strikes.

Hezbollah media chief Hussein Rahal Friday confirmed Hezbollah's "security square" in southern Beirut had not been hit and told The Associated Press that reports to the contrary were "not true."

The air strikes in the area of the headquarters knocked down an overpass, badly damaged another, sheered off the facades of buildings, shattered apartment windows and sent balconies crashing onto cars parked below...

...A young man with blood pouring down his face and onto his bare chest was shown on Lebanese TV walking out of a damaged apartment building.

The TV showed a missile had gouged a huge crater out of the main Mar Mikhail crossroads in southern Beirut.

Firemen were seen struggling to put out several fires as glass, aluminum siding and stones littered the streets.

Israeli warships shelled the coastal highway north of Sidon, slowing down traffic considerably but not actually cutting the road, witnesses reported.

Israeli planes also hit transmission antennas for local TV stations in the eastern Bekaa Valley, a Hezbollah stronghold. Anwar Raja of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command said the planes struck the communications towers, but did not hit the guerrillas' base at Qousaya."


This is collective punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

Comment
to Bunnahabhain
"The destroyer's big guns ,by the way,are at most 155mm,the same size as most western self propelled artillery pieces, only a little bigger than a tank main gun".

My God these weapons are mere peashooters!...Its always good to be corrected by a military man.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

You state "Israel is hitting almost exclusively civilian targets in Gaza and Lebanon. "


"...Nasrallah, soon after Israel's military reportedly hit his home and destroyed Hezbollah's headquarters in southern Beirut. "


"Israeli aircraft also carried out more airstrikes on a Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut and an airstrike on Hezbollah's radio station, Reuters reported, wounding at least one person. The radio station, al-Nour, remained on the air, the news agency said.

Overnight, IDF warplanes attacked 18 targets in Lebanon, including the headquarters for the Syrian-backed Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in east Lebanon.

Israeli planes also attacked Hezbollah headquarters in southern Beirut overnight, according to IDF. Bridges and roads leading to the offices were destroyed in the operation.

Along the Israel-Lebanon border, IDF attacked two Hezbollah outposts, a weapons storage facility used by militants and three fuel stations south of Sidon."



But the Hezbollah are using UNGUIDED, area bombardment rockets on civilian areas- THAT is OK with you, it seems.


"The continued rocket attacks -- including one that authorities said killed a woman and her grandchild Friday -- prompted Israel's Cabinet to approve extended military operations in Lebanon, a spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said"


So, CarolC, Grandmothers and their grandchildren are legitimate military targets for Arabs, but roads, weapon storage, and C&C offices are NOT for the Israelis???????

Or is it still that Jews are not "human" enough for you?


IF the Israelis WANTED to inflict civilian casualties, in three days the would have killed a LOT more that the present reported numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 02:54 PM

Almost all of the civilians killed so far in all of the hostilities in all of the effected areas, beardedbruce (this includes Israel as well as Lebanon and Gaza) have been people who were not Israelis, but were Gazan and Lebanese civilians. So when you say this...

Or is it still that Jews are not "human" enough for you?

I must assume that you believe that one Jewish life is worth more than dozens of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM

"Almost all of the civilians killed so far in all of the hostilities in all of the effected areas, beardedbruce (this includes Israel as well as Lebanon and Gaza) have been people who were not Israelis, but were Gazan and Lebanese civilians."

And THEIR blood is on the hands of HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH.

You seem to think that targetting old women and children deliberatly, as Hamas and Hezbollah do, is not worthy of comment, but the death of civilians while attacking a legitimate military target is a crime- WHICH THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS have defined as being the crime of the side which PLACED the military target in a civlian area. IF there are war-crime trials, as there should be, the ONLY evidence so far indicates HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH are guilty, by their choice of prohibited areas to locate military depots, headquarters, and targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

The Palestinian fighters hold exactly one Israeli soldier prisoner
Hezbollah in the Lebanon hold two soldiers prisoner.
The three were captured in military firefights.

In contrast Israel holds thousands,possibly tens of thousands, of Palestinians,men ,women and children in prison.Many of these were kidnapped by the Israeli military from refugee camps in the illegally occupied West Bank.

The Israelis are holding hundreds of Palestinian children in prison cells.Why are they inside?Did they scratch the paintwork of a car belonging to a Zionist colonialist?

The prisoners are being held in appalling conditions sometimes for up to 25 years.The food is disgusting,they are not allowed enough water,medical treatment is poor and torture and illtreatment is commonplace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

"I must assume that you believe that one Jewish life is worth more than dozens of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Israeli government. "


And I must assume that you believe that one Arab life is worth more than dozens of Israeli lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Arab and Palestinian governments.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

"The Palestinian fighters hold exactly one Israeli soldier prisoner
Hezbollah in the Lebanon hold two soldiers prisoner.
The three were captured in military firefights."

Which occurred during a direct ACT OF WAR within the PRE-1967 border State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

And THEIR blood is on the hands of HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH.

Only if you believe in collective punishment, beardedbruce.

Israel is targeting and killing civilians because some of its soldiers were kidnapped by guerrillas. This is collective punishment - a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

And I must assume that you believe that one Arab life is worth more than dozens of Israeli lives. Which would also be in accord with the prevailing veiw held by the Arab and Palestinian governments.

This would be a valid belief on your part ONLY if the numbers were reversed and there were dozens of (Jewish) Israeli civilians killed for every non-Jewish civilian killed.

But they aren't, and so it isn't. It is simply a very ignorant attempt on your part to score a rhetorical point.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:11 PM

Which occurred during a direct ACT OF WAR within the PRE-1967 border State of Israel.

In response to many, many acts of war by Israel in the form of bombings of civilians in Gaza over a period of many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

"Israel is targeting and killing civilians because some of its soldiers were kidnapped by guerrillas"

As I stated, this is unsupported. IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.

Thus, since the premise is false, the conclusion that "This is collective punishment " is invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:22 PM

"This would be a valid belief on your part ONLY if the numbers were reversed and there were dozens of (Jewish) Israeli civilians killed for every non-Jewish civilian killed."

Hardly. The Hezbollah use of area bombardment rockets against a civilian region is proof of direct targeting of civilians- YOU have provided no such proof of deliberate targeting of civilians not at or near military targets by the Israeli armed forces. Roads, munition depots, headquarters, and fuel depots are all legitimate military targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM

In response to many, many acts of war by Palestinians in the form of bombings of civilians in Israel over a period of many years....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

FREE THE OTHER ISRAELI PRISONER!
While the people of Gaza are imprisoned in their city and the refugee camps and cities of the West Bank are threatened by by the Israeli military it is worth mentioning an Israeli civilian who remains a prisoner of the Israeli state.

Mordechai Vanunu ,a former nuclear technician in the Negev desert, did much to reveal the extent of Israel's nuclear weapons capability.

For this crime he was kidnapped from Rome and served 18 years in an Israeli jail.Eleven years were served in solitary confinement.

After his release in 2004 he was prevented from leaving Israel. He has renounced the Jewish faith and his Israeli citizenship and wants to move to another country where he can live in peace. He is unable to leave and now lives under close monitoring amid threats from right wing Zionists in a christian church annexe.

Israel is prepared to kill innocents in order to free its captured soldiers but when will it free Mordechai Vanunu?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

Since the beginning of the current conflict, the Hamas terrorist
organization is responsible for carrying out 425 various terrorist attacks
which resulted in the killing of 377 and wounding of 2,076 Israeli citizens
and soldiers.

The Hamas organization has carried out 53 suicide attacks, killing 289
Israelis and injuring 1,649.

A Chronology of Terrorist Attacks Carried out by the Hamas Since September
2000:

April 17,2004 - A border policeman killed, an Israeli civilian injured,
and two border policemen injured, when a suicide bomber exploded himself at
the workers terminal crossing at the Erez industrial area.

March 14, 2004 - Two suicide bombers detonated an explosive belt and an
explosive bag at the Ashdod port. Ten Israelis were killed and 12 injured.

March 6, 2004 - Suicide bombers traveling in three vehicles drove into the
Erez crossing, and detonated two car bombs at Palestinian checkpoints, while
firing at the Israeli checkpoint. Two Palestinian policemen were killed.

Jan. 29, 2004 - A suicide bomber detonated a bag laden with explosives on a
No. 19 bus line on Aza Street in Jerusalem. Ten Israelis and one foreigner
were killed and 44 were injured.

Jan. 14, 2004 - A female suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt detonated
herself at the workers terminal in the Erez crossing, resulting in the death
of four Israelis and the injury of five.

Sept. 9, 2003 - A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device at the
entrance of the "Hillel Café" in Jerusalem. Seven Israelis were killed and
70 injured.

Sept. 9 , 2003 - A suicide bomber detonated an explosive device at a bus
stop near the IDF "Tzrifin" Base. Nine IDF soldiers were killed and 10 were
injured.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

more here http://www.aipac.org/hamas/hamasAttacks.htm [please limit C & P]

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

AND THE WALL CAME DOWN
It has just been reported from Gaza that Palestinian fighters have blown a large hole in the security wall separating Egypt from Gaza.
Hundreds of people trapped on the closed border were able to brush past security guards and enter Gaza .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM

IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.

This is unsupported supposition on your part.

Hardly. The Hezbollah use of area bombardment rockets against a civilian region is proof of direct targeting of civilians

They didn't start firing rockets until Israel invaded and bombarded Lebanon. But if they are firing into civilian areas, then they, too, are targeting civilians.

YOU have provided no such proof of deliberate targeting of civilians not at or near military targets by the Israeli armed forces. Roads, munition depots, headquarters, and fuel depots are all legitimate military targets.

As are Israeli soldiers. But killing civilians and targeting roads, power plants, residential areas and other civilian infrastructure is NOT a legitimate response for the kidnapping of soldiers, but is, in fact, collective punishment.

In response to many, many acts of war by Palestinians in the form of bombings of civilians in Israel over a period of many years....

In response to an illegal military occupation of their lands, and complete subjugation of and ongoing ethnic cleansing of their people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM

Lest you forget, beardedbruce, for every Jewish Israeli civilian you can list who has been killed by Palestinians, there are SEVERAL Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis. You are, again, placing a much higher value on the lives of Jewish Israelis than on people who are not Jewish Israelis. This is, by the way, racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:42 PM

"IF Israel was targeting civilians, the casualties would be far greater.

This is unsupported supposition on your part."


Yet YOUR statements as to the intent of the Israeli government, in opposition to the statements by that body, are to be given some value as being supported? I do not think so.


You can't have it both ways: If the Israeli military is so strong and powerful, why is it they are killing less civilians that the average day of suicide bombers in Iraq, IF they were targeting them?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:48 PM

If the Israeli military is so strong and powerful, why is it they are killing less civilians that the average day of suicide bombers in Iraq, IF they were targeting them?

There are all kinds of reasons why they might hold back the full force of their strength. But there are no reasons other than collective punishment for the response they have chosen for the kidnapping of two of their soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

"Lest you forget, beardedbruce, for every Jewish Israeli civilian you can list who has been killed by Palestinians, there are SEVERAL Palestinian civilians who have been killed by Israelis."

Least YOU forget, the Palestinians are TARGETING civilians, while the Israelis are targeting those who are making bombs and launching rockets. If THEY are not valid military targets, then you are right-
But I claim the number of civilians DELIBERATLY targeted would show a far greater number of Israeli dead than Palestinian.

You have never seemed to comprehend that civilians killed while attacking a military target are a different thing than civilians deliberatly targeted as civilians. Still regretable, and all step[s should be taken to reduce that number to the absolute minimum possible, but NOT the same. IF the terrorists/freedom fighters choose to have military targets in civilian areas, as prohibited by the Geneva conventions, there will always be the chance of innocents being killed or injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

"But there are no reasons other than collective punishment for the response they have chosen for the kidnapping of two of their soldiers. "


Oh, really? You think that the roads would not be used to transport troops, supplies, and the Israeli kidnap victims? IF there was collective punishment, there would be attacks on UNRELATED civilian infrastructure- which I do not see as the case- Transportation and power systems are legitimate military targets, to deny the enemy suppiles, movement, and immpact the ability to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:00 PM

While Hezbollah would launch its rockets with the goal of causing mass casualties to shock and demoralize the Israeli population, they would also likely attempt smaller but more devastating infrastructure assaults. High-value targets would include the industrial section of Haifa, whose sprawling petrochemical plants and oil refinery would be vulnerable to bombardment. The loss of the Haifa refinery, one of only two such installations in Israel, would threaten Israel's economic security. Hezbollah could also launch rockets against the city's port and Matam Park, a hub of Israeli high-tech development. Even minor damage could lead to serious disruptions in Israel's delicate economic framework. The vulnerability of the Israeli economy to a Hezbollah rocket attack was demonstrated by events in 1996 when the group fired over 500 Katyushas into northern Israel; Israeli officials placed the cost of the relatively minor two-week assault at approximately US$100 million.[11]

http://www.meforum.org/article/806

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:01 PM

Least YOU forget, the Palestinians are TARGETING civilians, while the Israelis are targeting those who are making bombs and launching rockets. If THEY are not valid military targets, then you are right-
But I claim the number of civilians DELIBERATLY targeted would show a far greater number of Israeli dead than Palestinian.

This is bullshit. Israel has been targeting civilians for a long time. Even members of the IDF say this is true.


Still regretable, and all step[s should be taken to reduce that number to the absolute minimum possible, but NOT the same. IF the terrorists/freedom fighters choose to have military targets in civilian areas, as prohibited by the Geneva conventions, there will always be the chance of innocents being killed or injured.

Oh, come off it. You (and the government of Israel) are just hiding behind plausible deniability. There is no truth whatever to their claims or yours.

They are targeting civilians as they have been since they started their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians even before Israel's war of independence. The massacres of many hundreds of civilians from Palestinian towns and villages before, during, and after Israel's War of Independence, and the many massacres and killings of Palestinians civilians and civilians in other countries since then proves Israel's assertion that they don't target civilians to be the Big Lie that it is.

And by the way, if you (and Israel) insist that killing civilians is justified if a military target is what is being aimed for, then by the same logic, all of Israel's civilian areas are military targets, because members of the IDF (and the proto-Israeli terrorist organizations prior to Israeli statehood) have been cleverly (and insideously) hiding themselves amongst the Israeli civilian population since before Israel declared itself a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:18 PM

Lessee, ifor posted three times since my last post without a word of answer regarding whether or not Israel is entitled to any borders, which CarolC was kind enough to grant so long as they are the '67 borders. ifor seems to indicate that he/she/it does not accept Israel under any circumstances within any boundries.

Let me repeat my question directed to you from
10 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM,
and on 12 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM
and on 12 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM
and on 13 Jul 06 - 01:40 PM

Do you, ifor, support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Otherwise, what do you bring to the party? The party being, in this forum, any indication that you allow Israel any rights to do anything as a sovereign state.

The heated words in the light of current events indicate why these current events are, sadly, current. Anything may be done to Israelis, the crimes begin when the Israelis react. No gauge can be put on Israeli reaction since with this theory anything Israel does is over-reaction.

Typically when you attack the soldiers of a country that is an act of war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:19 PM

"This is collective punishment."

And firing rockets into Haifa is not?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

Carol: To be clear on one thing: Do Palestinians (or groups working on their behalf) target civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

I was looking at the news on my screen this evening and it seems that an Israeli warship operating in Lebanese waters has been hit by a rocket fired by Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM

It does seem that ifor, David and the scads and oodles of other college students who seem to be posting here under GUEST names do not so much care about Palestinians as they do about hating Zionists, Israelis and in the final analysis, Jews. They do not so much care for people as they do for ideologies. They seem to be little better than the folks they condone: Hamas, Hezbollah, and if this were decades ago, the Red Brigades. I don't doubt they'd have though the murders of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics was just. They would no doubt have complained about the bad people who shot the hijackers and freed the passengers at Entebbe.

Until such time as they and those who support them state that the life of an Israeli child has the same value as the life of a Palestinian child--or any other child for that matter, they can collectively kiss my ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:36 PM

"Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said on Friday evening that his group is ready for "open war" with Israel and warned that an Israeli warship operating off southern Beirut will be destroyed.

Speaking defiantly in an audiotape aired on Hizbullah's Al-Manar television, Nasrallah addressed himself to Israelis, saying: "You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war."

"Look at the warship that has attacked Beirut, while it burns and sinks before your very eyes," Nasrallah said. It was not clear whether he meant that the warship had already been attacked.

The Israeli army said an Israeli naval ship was in Lebanese waters, apparently by a rocket. The damage was not serious and there were no injuries, a spokesman said. Officials would not give the vessel's exact location."



As result of this crap, Israel will, within 24 hours, do some serious damage to Beirut. Welcome to the world when neither side will listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

exactly, Peace.

Seems there was this soccer player from Italy who kept harassing this other soccer player from France....after awhile, the French one head-butted the Italian.

Who is at fault, the one who kept poking, or the one who over-reacted?

That's right...**BOTH**....the metaphor only goes so far, but when the entire area is a smoldering ruin unfit for ANYONE, I'm sure it will be of great solice to know *THEIR* leaders didn't back down.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

Carol and bruce...I know and like you both, but this eternal list-making of 'offenses' by the other side and 'righteous reply' by the other side is getting beyond ridiculous!

There ARE no halos or winners in this abysmal idiocy!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

One solution to the current problem is the one proposed by the Palestinian fighters 2 weeks ago.
The Israeli soldier is released in Gaza and in return Israel releases all women and children prisoners.
A similar deal could be worked out with Hezbollah...or have I missed something?
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM

Peace, re: your 14 Jul 06 - 04:19 PM post, please see my 14 Jul 06 - 03:38 PM post.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

Carol: To be clear on one thing: Do Palestinians (or groups working on their behalf) target civilians?

Yes, they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has called for a "candlelit vigil "outside the House of Commons in central London from 9pm until 10.30 on tuesday the 18th July while the House sits late.
The vigil is to show solidarity with the people of Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon who are being attacked by Israeli military forces.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

There ARE no halos or winners in this abysmal idiocy!

Maybe not, but there ARE occupiers and those who are living under military occupation. There is a world of difference between these two categories. You ought to know that, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

I recall one time as a kid when gangs were the norm. It was a necessity where I grew up because of the 'hatreds' and 'turf wars' that took place. It wasn't that most of us wanted to belong to a gang; it was just that we perceived it to be a matter of survival. After five guys steal your lunch or lunch money a few times either before or after they beat you up, well, eventually you seek out others who have had the same problem and begin to carry combs. (Gang members from the 1950s will understand that.) Sooner or later, someone pulls a knife on someone else, or they use a chain to whip an 'enemy' and then someone else has to begin carrying a piece. Eventually the cops get involved because sooner or later someone ends up in the hospital needing lotsa stitches to close a puncture or a slash wound. Then someone else gets a few ribs caved in and maybe their testicles kicked up into their pelvis. Then it's necessary to re-establish ownership of turf, because things are getting crazy. Then you see that it's a good thing to join forces with another gang because there seems to be safety in numbers. Then it's no longer about lunches and combs and turf. Then it's about gangs. And what do you do when a ten-year-old asks a twelve-year-old for sagely advice about whether to carry a switch blade or a gravity knife, and what's the best way to fight in close: blade up, down or sideways facing in or out? And is it a good idea to carry a throwing knife also? And what's the best way to hide a 'serious' weapon? Kids, huh? What are ya gonna do!?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

Thank you, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:20 PM

This all comes from one fundamental fact: Refusal of most of the Arab nations and their "Palestinian" bully-boys to recognized Israel. If Israel had been accepted by 1967 none of the rest of this would be happening.

ifor is a witness to this by his/her/its very inability to form any idea of acceptance of the State Of Israel, so by his/her/its very own words and positions we are given to understand what Israel is up against, as well as anyone who wishes peace for the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:28 PM

AN EXPOSED NERVE
In her book DRINKING THE SEA AT GAZA Amira Hass tries to explain why she ,an Israeli journalist, wanted to live in poor,dangerous and rundown Gaza.
"In the end " she wrote
"my desire to live in Gaza stemmed neither from adventurism nor from insanity, but from that dread of being a bystander from my need to understand , down to the last detail a world that is -to the best of my political and historical comprehension - a profoundly Israeli creation.To me, Gaza embodies the entire saga of the Israeli -Palestinian conflict; it represents the central contradiction of the state of Israel- ademocracy for some,dispossession for others;it is our exposed nerve"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM

This all comes from one fundamental fact: Refusal of most of the Arab nations and their "Palestinian" bully-boys to recognized Israel. If Israel had been accepted by 1967 none of the rest of this would be happening.

There is no reason on earth why they should have recognized Israel. However it is a lie to say that most of them did not do so. Many of them tried, but Israel would have none of it.

All of what has happened and is happening right now would have happened no matter what the "Arab" nations did or didn't do, because Israel has always created pretexts for committing acts of aggression against its neighbors for the purpose of taking more territory. And it will continue to do so, to the detriment of both the Palestinians as well as the Israelis, until either the people of Israel make them stop, or Israel succeeds in wiping out all of the people of the Middle East and possibly other parts of the world as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

Until such time as you recognize the right of Israel to exist, your words mean nothing, ifor. You care not for the poor or disenfranchised--just for YOUR choice of the poor and disenfranchised. That just ain't good enough in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:32 PM

"...but there ARE occupiers..."

and you ought to know that there are varying definitions of "occupiers", Carol ...it is NOT cut & dried & simplistic.

There was an editorial in the Wash. Post today that explained it...it is, in the last analysis, about whether Israel shoud even exist or not.....and THAT is not cut & dried, either!

Christian, Jews, Muslims...all have historical roots in the region. They **should** share the place......fat chance!

Anwar Sadat tried to work it out a few years back....seems that wasn't appreciated by HIS side.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

Where was I?
"Palestinian bully-boys " writes Robomatic.Mmmm.......Well it is avery rare sight to seem teenagers armed with rocks and sticks take on one of the mightiest armies in the world but that is what happened during the two Intifadas.
You remember the ones when the Israeli chiefs sent out orders to break the bones of the teenage stone throwers they caught. Mind you,they also shot hundreds then and are still shooting now.But bully-boys ? I think not.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

Message to Bill D
The UN resolution 242 calls on the Israelis to withdraw from the occupied West Bank.It is not a part of Israel.
Also the Palestinian poulation is both Christian and muslim.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

Israel will continue to exist--or the mid-East will discontinue to exist. Amongst all the rhetoric and 'he pushed me back first' talk, the central issue is that reactions are getting stronger, and eventually the reactions will become stronger and slightly more disproportionate. None of this will mean a damned thing, no one's arguments about right, wrong, truth, justice. And until such time as thinking people grasp that, the war will escalate. And when the desert sands cool in fifty thousand years, anthropologists will look back on the written record here and ask, "Why didn't they stop it?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

and you ought to know that there are varying definitions of "occupiers", Carol ...it is NOT cut & dried & simplistic.

Ok, I will rephrase...

There are occupiers and those who are living, with no civil rights or human rights whatever, under a brutal military occupation. That is about as cut and dried as it is possible to get.

There was an editorial in the Wash. Post today that explained it...it is, in the last analysis, about whether Israel shoud even exist or not.....and THAT is not cut & dried, either!

No it isn't. It is, in the last analysis, about whether or not Israel should continue to expand its borders and keep millions of people under a brutal and totalitarian military occupation, and to continue to commit acts of aggression against its neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:53 PM

Back to our regularly scheduled program . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:55 PM

Israel will continue to exist--or the mid-East will discontinue to exist.

This needs to be rephrased as well...

"Israel will take what it wants, or the mid-East will discontinue to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

Whatever, Carol. It won't change the result. This is not about who's right anymore. It is far beyond that. Stop letting your hatred of Israel cloud your perception. Right and wrong no longer matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

Stop letting your hatred of Israel cloud your perception. Right and wrong no longer matter.

This is an act of incredible intellectual dishonesty on your part, Peace.

I do not hate Israel. I want Israel to stop its insane policies, and to start behaving like civilized people in the Middle East.

At least I recognize Israel and it's right to continue its existance.

I've never once seen you recognize the Palestinians right to continue their existance. When you support the policies and practices of the government of Israel as they have been carried out in the past and continue to be carried out, you are providing them with help for doing what they are doing and have done.

It will not be until people like you and all of the people in countries like the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, and other such places tell them that they will not be supported in their acts of agression that any of this will come to a peaceful end.

As long as people like you provide them with cover for their activities, they will continue to do them, and there will not be an end until everybody in the region is dead.

But if enough people would apply pressure to the government of Israel stop these practices, they would have no choice but to stop.

I can only conclude that it is your hatred of Arabs, Palestinians, and Muslims that prevents you from doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM

And I want the various terrorist networks who ply their trades on behalf of 'Palestinians' to stop what they are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

As to intellectual dishonesty, clarify something: What would you envision as a 'just' settlement for the mid-East so that Israel remains as a Jewish homeland and the Palestinians also have a viable homeland?

BTW, Hatred for Palestinians? No, Hatred for organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah? Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

Well put Peace...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:23 PM

Unless one side or the other backs down within the next week or so, the prospect of a full scale war, probably with Syria, lomms very large indeed. Both sides are so deeply mired in blood and blame it no longer matters who did what.

Only the Israelis can back down. Their armed forces can be controlled, whilst the irregular forces in Gaza, the West Bank, Syria and Lebanon cannot. There needs to be the strength of will to order the army not to respond to provocation. One side hides its millitary targets in the midst of civilains, and the others use collective punishment. Unless this bloodbath is stopped soon, these war crimes will not be rememberd, except as footnotes to far more terrible things.


The real irony is that if Ariel Sharon, the blood soaked monster so many round here love to hate was stil in charge, the Israeli people would not have demanded action from him when the first soldier was kidnapped, and this last month would have been very different. The huge and diproportionate response was mainly the result of a new goverment wanting to re-assure its people that it took national security seriously. What a mess.....

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

Hezbollah are not the Lebanese government.
The military wing of Hamas is not the Palestinian government.

The people of each place may sympathise with the (terrorists/freedom fighters) but they are not the actual fighters or killers.

Even if retribution by Israel against Hezbollah and against the military wing of Hamas were justified (sort of rather like the British Army shooting IRA terrorists don't you think?) how would that justify Israel destroying the infrastructure of the Lebanon and Gaza, and killing the civilian population there?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:33 PM

And I want the various terrorist networks who ply their trades on behalf of 'Palestinians' to stop what they are doing.

Well, you'd better start applying pressure to the government of Israel to end the occupation, and the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and the UK to put pressure on the government of Israel to end the occupation, or that will never happen.

Human Beings don't submit willingly to total subjugation and bondage. That is a fact of life that will never change, no matter how many nuclear weapons are involved.

As to intellectual dishonesty, clarify something: What would you envision as a 'just' settlement for the mid-East so that Israel remains as a Jewish homeland and the Palestinians also have a viable homeland?

Israel retreats to the Green Line, recognises the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, allows a *nominal* right of return... this means allowing a small token number of elderly Palestinians to return to Israel (so they can die in the land they consider home, as a conciliatory gesture and as a recognition of their legitimate grievances), and leaves the Palestinians alone to get on with the process of building their country. Holy sites in Jerusalem should be protected by the international community. The majority of Palestinians will agree to these things, and once they have them, they will fight against anyone within their society who would try to endanger them by harming Israel or Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM

Old Blevins

We had a little quarrel, she and I
She told me just to curl up and die
I crept out to drown my sorrows
At a joint called No Tomorrows
Where the old man came and looked me in the eye

Old Blevins

I could tell he had some wisdom to impart
Some story that was etched and burned and stamped
Upon his heart
Then his eyes began to glisten
'Cause he could see that I would listen
We sat there at that bar 'til nearly three
And this is what Old Blevins said to me

    He said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    In Tijuana blah blah blah back in 1963
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    You should have been there blah blah blah
    Is what Old Blevins said to me

I sat there and I listened to his words
As they flapped around my head like little birds
Had he gone plumb 'round the bend
Or could I just not comprehend
His lips were writing lines I could not read
When suddenly, it all came clear to me

    As he said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    Then crazy hippies blah blah blah blah no effect on me
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    The Great Depression blah blah blah
    And he would not leave me be

Old blevins was still talking when I seized my chance to flee
Back home she's never known I'm not the fool I used to be
Buy I know that a man and woman's lives were somehow changed
By a loathesome toothless geezer, incoherent and deranged
And my memories of that evening fuel and inner mounting fear
That I might become old Blevins anywhere that they sell beer

    And I'll say "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    I don't remember blah blah blah blah blah blah
    Mistakes were made
    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
    How 'bout them Cowboys? blah blah blah
    Like Old Blevins used to say

Old Blevins
 

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:46 PM

"Israel retreats to the Green Line, recognises the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, allows a *nominal* right of return... this means allowing a small token number of elderly Palestinians to return to Israel (so they can die in the land they consider home, as a conciliatory gesture and as a recognition of their legitimate grievances), and leaves the Palestinians alone to get on with the process of building their country. Holy sites in Jerusalem should be protected by the international community. The majority of Palestinians will agree to these things, and once they have them, they will fight against anyone within their society who would try to endanger them by harming Israel or Israelis."

That I can agree with. Thank you, Carol. A goal worth going after. Now, what can be done to shut down the terrorist organizations after what you have proposed gets put in place? Because we know they will not stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:56 PM

Now, what can be done to shut down the terrorist organizations after what you have proposed gets put in place? Because we know they will not stop.

Israel will protect its borders along the Green Line, and as I said in my last post, the majority of Palestinians will fight against any organizations that would seek to jeopardize their independent nation by committing acts of terror in their name, and will cooperate with Israel in keeping their borders secure.

The terrorist organizations will no longer have the Palestinians to use as a rallying cry, and their attention will then shift to the other governments of occupation in the region, namely, the US and the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

Peace, carol C, i agree too. That is an eminetly fair and sensible soulution, and the Palstinain people policing the millitants deserves at least the benefit of the doubt.

The only thing missing from it was very simple. All countries recognise Israel and Palestine and their borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM

Now, if there was a way to convince the Powers that this is a good thing . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

BTW, Carol I was wrong to say you hate Israel. I do know it's their policies you are against. My apologies for that remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 07:20 PM

MARK TWAIN TRAVELS TO JERUSALEM
[Mark Twain has found the 1860's Holy Land to be a desolate wasteland, sparsely populated and poverty-stricken. As they trek down to Jerusalem, the troupe finds only one location that is well-cultivated - the habitation of an ancient group of Jews in Shechem.]

Chapter 49:

...It was hard to realize that this silent plain had once resounded with martial music and trembled to the tramp of armed men... A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action...

...We never saw a human being on the whole route, much less lawless hordes of Bedouins. Tabor stands solitary and alone, a giant sentinel above the Plain of Esdraelon...

Chapter 52:

...The narrow canyon in which Nablus, or Shechem, is situated is under high cultivation, and the soil is exceedingly black and fertile. It is well watered, and its affluent vegetation gains effect by contrast with the barren hills that tower on either side.

For thousands of years this clan have dwelt in Shechem under strict taboo and having little commerce or fellowship with their fellowmen of any religion or nationality. For generations they have not numbered more than one or two hundred, but they still adhere to their ancient faith and maintain their ancient rites and ceremonies. Talk of family and old descent! … This handful of old first families of Shechem…can name their fathers straight back without a flaw for thousands [of years]…. I found myself gazing at any straggling scion of this strange race with a riveted fascination, just as one would stare at a living mastodon or a megatherium…Carefully preserved among the sacred archives of this curious community is a MS copy of the ancient Jewish law, which is said to be the oldest document on earth...
[And they travel on...]

...The Further we went, the hotter the sun got, and the more rocky and bare, repulsive and dreary the landscape became… There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, and had almost deserted the country. No landscape exists that is more tiresome to the eye that that which bounds the approaches to Jerusalem...

...At last, away in the middle of the day, ancient bits of wall and crumbling arches began to line the way - we toiled up one more hill, and every pilgrim and every sinner swung his hat on high! Jerusalem! Perched on its eternal hills, white and domed and solid, massed together and hooped with high gray walls, the venerable city gleamed in the sun. So small! Why, it was no larger than an American village of four thousand inhabitants… Jerusalem numbers only fourteen thousand people...

Chapter 53:

...The population of Jerusalem is composed of Muslims, Jews, Greeks, Latins, Armenians, Syrians, Copts, Abyssinians, Greek Catholics, and a handful of Protestants. One hundred of the latter sect are all that dwell now in this birthplace of Christianity. The nice shades of nationality comprised in the above list and the languages spoken by them are altogether too numerous to mention. It seems to me that all the races and colors and tongues of the earth must be represented among the fourteen thousand souls that dwell in Jerusalem. Rags, wretchedness, poverty, and dirt, those signs and symbols that indicate the presence of Muslim rule more surely than the crescent flag itself, abound… I would not desire to live here...

Chapter 56:

Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent. The Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee sleep in the midst of a vast stretch of hill and plain wherein the eye rests upon no pleasant tint, no striking object, no soft picture dreaming in a purple haze or mottled with the shadows of the clouds. Every outline is harsh, every feature is distinct, there is no perspective - distance works no enchantment here. It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land.

Palestine is desolate and unlovely. And why should it be otherwise? Can the curse of the Deity beautify a land?

The so-called historic Palestinian homeland. Did the Jews come into a prosperous nation and divide it, or did they enter a desolate land and bring with them prosperity and trade, cultivation and health? A great deal has changed in Israel since Mark Twain's visit, and all inhabitants would do well to set aside their bombs and stones and to enjoy the benefits of living in what is now a bountiful, thriving, democratic nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:15 PM

BTW, Carol I was wrong to say you hate Israel. I do know it's their policies you are against. My apologies for that remark.

Thanks, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:22 PM

Mark Twain was blinded by the bigoted and racist Orientalist attitudes that were prevalent in Western countries in his day. A pity, too, because I have lost a lot of respect for the man because of that bigoted and racist attitude. There are plenty of books and other writings from people who were far more informed about that part of the world that are not at all in agreement with Twain's account of his experiences there.

Anyone who tries to use Twain's bigoted treatise on the subject of Palestine to try to justify the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the its stranglehold on Gaza is also a bigot, a racist, and a supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: pdq
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

And they said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Them stinkin' Jew-boys blah blah blah blah we shall see
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
F'ing ragheads blah blah blah blah"
And they just would not leave us be
And they said "Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Back in the Dead Sea blah blah blah blah blah you must agree
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
And Mohammed said it in the year of six two three
Blah blah blah blah blah The Grand Mufti
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:37 PM

Pdq, that quote from Mark Twain has nothing to do with what is happening in Gaza and Lebanon right now. Any perceptions of "ownership" or "entitlement" of land do not justify the current bombardments of Gaza and Lebanon.

After twelve years, the reconstruction of downtown Beirut (the Paris of the Middle East) was largely complete. I have a friend and colleague who is a Lebanese Christian from Beirut. He is still traumatised by the destruction that occurred during the Lebanese civil war, and his experiences then. His wife insisted he return three years ago, to see that things have changed. Now about 15,000 people are said to have crossed the Lebanese border into Syria, seeking refuge from widespread bombings carried out by F-16 warplanes. Now the situation in southern Beirut is horrific. There is no more food, no electricity or water.

"there was bombing and fire everywhere in Beirut before we left."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

BTW, I shouldn't have said "Lebanese civil war", there were two many other countries involved for it to be a genuine civil war.

"The term "civil war" is not adequate due to the complexity and foreign (Iranian-Israeli-Palestinian-Syrian) military forces role in the 1975-1990 war." (Wikipedia)

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 08:50 PM

I will repeat myself:

"That said, I think the Israelis have 'lost' it. They are doing themselves incredible damage in terms of 'public relations' to say nothing of the increasing civilian death toll. The US veto of the UN wish to restrain Israel was a bad move, IMO.

As to attacking Gaza: The israelis have had terrorist attacks coming from there for years. I think until the Palestinians are not treated as pawns by the Arab countries and Israel starts treating Palestinians as people, and until folks like ifor and his crew recognize that Israelis are also people who 60 years ago were themselves refugees, then this present 'action' will NOT stop. However, it must, because what we are seeing is the beginning of a very different war--one that cannot help but escalate. Please keep in mind that if Israel is backed to the sea, they WILL use nuclear weapons. The chance of Armageddon is here and now. I think people who favour one side or the other had best take a step back (and I include myself in that statement) and realize that what is now beginning may become impossible to stop without loss of life that will be numbered in hundreds of thousands or millions. This is no longer brinksmanship. Right now, political postures do not mean a damned thing. The lack of UN intervention, the lack of restraint by Israel AND the various terrorist organizations that target Israel, may well lead to what we have feared (for most of my life anyway): specifically, nuclear war."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 09:09 PM

you're right bruce, the scenario is terrifying. The sick thing is that there are people in power in Israel and the US who "believe" in Armageddon and will be influenced by their beliefs in their military decisions (shades of Ronald Raygun)

the most dangerous people are the ones who believe the only solution is military - and they're the ones in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:17 PM

I see I should never post in a discussion that I do not intend to monitor minute-by-minute....but...Carol

"...it is, in the last analysis, about whether or not Israel should continue to expand its borders and keep millions of people under a brutal and totalitarian military occupation, and to continue to commit acts of aggression against its neighbors..... "

first...Israel was gradually reducing its borders the last 10 years, as I understood it. They withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, destroyed settlements (with great complaints from settlers)...What am I missing here?

second...that sentence sounds like a propaganda message written by a Palestinian. I have heard ministers for Syria and Quatar say stuff like that today. "brutal and totalitarian" are value judgements...are you really qualified to pass this judgment? "acts of agression"?? What IS the difference between that and "responses to provocation"? Weren't the suicide bus bombings in Israel 'acts of agression'?

Before you treat me like an apologist for Israel, I hasten to say that I still decry Israel's degree and manner of many of their responses.

Finally, I see the growing suspicion that Hezbollah, funded and encouraged by Iran, is pushing and escalating much of this, with Israel taking the opportunity to execute long-planned incursions to neutralize Hezbollah.....in other words, as I said before, BOTH groups are hoping to play these kidnappings and responses into a larger plan...and woe be to innocent bystanders!

....and the suppliers of all the munitions that make all this possible are licking their chops!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 10:59 PM

first...Israel was gradually reducing its borders the last 10 years, as I understood it. They withdrew from Lebanon, from Gaza, destroyed settlements (with great complaints from settlers)...What am I missing here?

You clearly know very little about the nature and the scope of the occupation, Bill. Israel withdrew from Gaza, but kept a stranglehold on Gaza's borders, air space, and shores, and in the process, on Gaza's economic viability. It has been bombing civilians in Gaza on a quite regular basis, for many years. It did not stop these bombings of civilians after it withdrew from Gaza.

Israel withdrew from Gaza but it is still occupying the West Bank, and it will not end the occupation there even after it dismantles a few, very small, token settlements there. It will hold on to the largest and the most intrusive aparthied settlements there, as well as confiscating for its own use, the vast majority of the West Bank's water resources.

The result of this will be that the Palestinians of the West Bank will not be able to move freely within the West Bank, but they will be held like prisoners in tiny bantustans (some people call them ghettoes), separated one from another, and separated from their orchards, fields, and their livelihoods, and with very little access to water, subjected to arbitrary checkpoints within the West Bank, subjected to being at best, humiliated and at worst, killed at the whim of Israeli soldiers (this is documented by members and former members of the IDF), and denied all of the basic human rights that we in the US say we, as a country, stand for.

Israel has not slowed down the process of disposessing many thousands of Palestinians from their homes (buldozing them into dust), but has sped up the process instead, and has sped up the process of building new settlements and increasing the size of already existing ones.

The Palestinians will continue to live with no legal protections, no civil rights, no human rights... no rights whatever. If you think anyone has a right to do this to an entire civilian population consisting of more than a million people, then you are a bigot and a racist as well.

second...that sentence sounds like a propaganda message written by a Palestinian. I have heard ministers for Syria and Quatar say stuff like that today. "brutal and totalitarian" are value judgements...are you really qualified to pass this judgment?

I'm as qualified to pass judgement on the Israeli occupation as I was to pass judgement on Jim Crow in the US south, Apartheid in South Africa, and on the Nazis for their crimes against humanity. If you think that standing up for human rights is propaganda, then you are hardly the humanitarian I had taken you to be. You need to learn a hell of a lot more than you currently do about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands before you will be in a position to tell me what I am saying is propaganda.

"acts of agression"?? What IS the difference between that and "responses to provocation"? Weren't the suicide bus bombings in Israel 'acts of agression'?

Suicide bombings are always a response to occupation, regardless of who commmits them. So therefore, they are always a response to provocation. Nobody has a right to subjugate another people. I condemn suicide bombing as a tactic because it targets civilians. But the occupation is the catalyst for this behavior. This is true everywhere in the world where foriegn governments subject civilian populations to military occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM

What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!
"Hezbullah is not the government of Lebananon"...Hezbullah comprises a part of the Lebanese government.
"The militant arm of Hamas is not the Palestinean government"...it is Hamas and Hamas is the current government of Palestinean Gaza.
Israelis have not retaliated againt Gaza and Lebanon because a couple of soldiers have been killed or captured. That was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for months of rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon and the occasional murderous suicide bombings.
While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel. I have more respect for those who are honest enough to espouse outright destruction; I disagree with that of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:13 PM

You think only Israelis are subject to having straws break their camel's backs, John? Or that they are the only ones who are entitled to have any rights at all? (Clearaly you do). You probably consider the Israelis to be the only human beings currently living in the Middle East.

And you are also obviously one who supports the use of collective punishment, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:16 PM

Carol, it's been a tactic of the terrorist groups who attack Israel, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM

CarolC-Don't tell me what I think, probably or otherwise. I said exactly what I meant to say. No more, no less. You are the one who plays word games.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 06 - 11:50 PM

Yes, Peace, it has, but I'm not defending the practice, John is.

Tell you what, John, I won't tell you what you think and you won't tell people who defend human rights for Palestinians what we think. Deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM

CarolC-I have never told you or anyone else what you (they) think...I'll leave that tactic to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM

Yes you did, John, here...

What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!

...and here...

While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel

We're not apologizing for anyone. We are standing up for human rights.

And you're wrong that the solution that I see as equitable would have the same result as physically destroying Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:23 AM

CarolC-You apparently do not understand the definition of 'apologist'. Suggest you get a good dictionary. I use the American Heritage College Dictionary; it's quite good. Hint: to be an apologist does not mean to apologize.
BTW, your examples of my telling you what you think are as weak as your vocabulary. Your ability to cut and paste is wonderous, your ability to analyze leaves much to be desired.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:51 AM

Ad hominem attacks will get you nowhere, John.

Ok, I looked it up.

So by the definition I found in the dictionary, I can safely say that you are an apologist for apartheid in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and an apologist for collective punishment (a favorite tactic of the Nazis), and for denying the Palestinians' right to exist and to have the same basic freedoms and human rights that Israelis and people in Western countries enjoy, and for the government of Israel denying its neighbors the right to defend their sovereignty and borders.

When you defend the policies and practices of the government of Israel, this is what you are defending.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:07 AM

You may say anything you wish. But as I have made not statements regarding whether I approve Israel's actions or not, I don't think you can safely say it. I merely pointed out the flaws in some of the pro Palestinean arguments. You use loaded terms like 'collective punishment' and 'denial of basic freedoms for Palestineans' and impute those to me and others. I don't accept those games. And lastly you bring in that boogey man term Nazi to tar me with. I don't think so Carol! Good night.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:09 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1687346.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:53 AM

You may say anything you wish. But as I have made not statements regarding whether I approve Israel's actions or not, I don't think you can safely say it. I merely pointed out the flaws in some of the pro Palestinean arguments.

You do support them. If you didn't, you wouldn't have felt the need to point out what you consider to be the flaws in what you call "pro Palestinian arguments" and you wouldn't be making those particular arguments. And you wouldn't frame it in terms like "pro Palestinian". That is the language of "anti Palestinians".

What sophistry--a fancy word for bullshit--is here at Mudcat, especially by the Palestinean apologists!
"Hezbullah is not the government of Lebananon"...Hezbullah comprises a part of the Lebanese government.

What sophistry yourself. The Lebanese government is faced with a choice between allowing Hezbullah to have a part in its government or face the dissolution of its country into another bloody sectarian war. The government of Lebanon is not responsible for the actions of Hezbullah, and it is not in a position to do much about their actions without risking such an outcome. The government of Lebanon has asked both the government of Israel and the UN to help them resolve this crisis. So far, Israel is not interested in helping them do this.

"The militant arm of Hamas is not the Palestinean government"...it is Hamas and Hamas is the current government of Palestinean Gaza.

If Israel punishes the Palestinian civilians for the actions of the militant arm of Hamas, even if Hamas is the current government of Palestinian Gaza, they are using exactly the same logic that Palestinians who bomb Israeli civilians are using to justify their actions... the logic being that either Palestinian or Israeli civilians should be punished for the actions of their governments. And that logic is the logic of collective punishment, a favorite tactic of the Nazis.

Israelis have not retaliated againt Gaza and Lebanon because a couple of soldiers have been killed or captured.

Yes they have.

That was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for months of rocket attacks from Gaza and Lebanon and the occasional murderous suicide bombings.

Months of rocket attacks from Lebanon?

Israel was conducting rocket attacks against Gaza, killing many civilians there, even when Hamas was conducting a year long unilateral ceasefire. Anyone who believes that Israelis are the only people who are entitled to say enough is enough is a bigot, a racist, and a supremacist.

While the Palestinean apologists profess to have no animus against Israelis, per se, any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel.

This is not true.

I have more respect for those who are honest enough to espouse outright destruction; I disagree with that of course.

More sophistry. You are implying that those who support human rights for Palestinians, by virtue of this non-sequitur of yours "any solution they see as equitable would, in fact, have the same result as physically destroying Israel", are covertly supporting Israel's outright destruction.

And lastly you bring in that boogey man term Nazi to tar me with. I don't think so Carol!

Oh, but I do think so, John. Good night yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM

PDQ
You should be more careful about choosing Mark Twain as your eyewitness in Palestine in the 1860s.You claim that Palestine ,then ruled by the Ottoman Empire was a pretty backward land.

Of course the USA back then was a land built on the sweat and slavery of black people and the ethnic slaughter of the native Americans.

Palestine was a land of uneven development .The Palestinians had a growing agricultural economy with mass exports of fruit to Europe.

What is interesting about your quote is that the various nationalities and religious groups did live for quite lengthy periods in some peace and security ...but this was before Zionism was exported into the land .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:45 AM

Twelve Lebanese were killed by Israeli missiles today at the Lebanese town of Marwahin in the south of Lebanon.They were slaughtered in two cars while trying to flee the bombing.
At the town of Jbal al Botm near Tyre nine members of two families ,including three children,were injured when a bomb destroyed the house they were sheltering in.
Meanwhile in Gaza the Israeli military has demolished or partly destroyed 20 houses and bulldozed 30 acres of farmland and olive groves.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:57 AM

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign has been campaigning for several years to halt the export of lethal British military equipment to Israel on the grounds that it is being used to attack Palestinian civilians on the illegally occupied West Bank.

The equipment exported by British arms companies includes components for Apache helicopters, Merkova tanks, F16 warplanes and converted armoured personnel carries .

Campaigners believe that the sale of this equipment is an outrage at a time when hundreds of civilians in Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon are being attacked by air,land and sea forces.

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign website contains a great deal of information about events in Palestine/Israelincluding the terrible suffering of those wounded by shrapnel from Israeli shellfire.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM

The following extract is from Noam Chomsky's book The Fatal Triangle

               ZIONISM RULES BUT ITS NOT OK
"The religious settlers in the West Bank operating freely with army support, take pride in creating a pogrom like atmosphere among the arabs , who must be trained not to "raise their heads" , this being the only way to treat arabs, who "adore power" and will live in peace with the Jews only when "we show him that we are strong". How?
"We enter a village shoot a bit at windows ,warn the villagers and return to the settlement. We don't kidnap people ,but it can happen that we catch a boy who has been throwing stones ,take him back with us ,beat him a bit and give him over to the army to finish the job."
The same West Bank settler also explains how official investigators act to protect Jews who shoot to kill[including firing at children]...

The above extract is from Noam Chomsky's book THE FATEFUL TRIANGLE,
lONDON 1983

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:15 AM

According to the weekly newspaper Socialist Worker one of the Lebanese prisoners Hezbollah want released from an Israeli prison is Samir Qantar.His family say that he was arrested by the Israelis at the age of 16 in 1979 and has been held in prison ever since.According to the family he joined the Lebanese Resistance only when his country was invaded by Israel.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Mahoney
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:18 AM

It's time to flatten Iran. Now we have a good excuse.

Or let the Jews do it for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 09:31 AM

Dear Mahoney
Keep taking the tablets but double the dose!
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Troy
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM

Even after Hezbollah launched hundreds of Katyusha rockets on Thursday, wounding 90 Israelis and killing at least two, Jerusalemites remained calm.

Where you stand regarding Israel's unsought two-front war depends on how quickly you say "Kassam" and "Katyusha" when telling the story. True, Israel's supporters - and civilians -- can take pride in a country which will go to Herculean lengths to save even one kidnap victim and has made the well-being of three soldiers a national obsession.

Still, the kidnappings are a sidelight. The months-long downpour of Kassams, especially on the working-class southern town of Sderot, has shaped Israel's Summer Rains Gaza strategy. And Hezbollah's rocket barrage has made intolerable the six-year status-quo standoff.
No nation can tolerate persistent shelling from a neighbour. The question isn't "How dare Israel attack Gaza and Lebanon?" but "What took so long for Israel to respond effectively"?

On the Lebanese border, the response appeared quick - judging by the time elapsed from the moment Hezbollah ambushed the young soldiers on routine patrol until Israel began hitting central targets in Lebanon.
Yet for six years Israel has shown remarkable restraint in the north. Despite Israel's complete, unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah's Islamist radicals wanted to continue their war against the Jewish state.

Hezbollah then amassed an estimated 10,000 missiles against Israel. Hezbollah provocations, ranging from the attempted kidnapping and murder of three patrolling soldiers in 2000 to occasionally bombing northern Israeli towns, have triggered controlled responses. Israel's strategy has been to try to avoid a multi-front war. The real question, however, is why Hezbollah enjoys attacking the Jewish state so wantonly.

Similarly in the south, Israel's reactions seemed hasty only when linked to the kidnapping two weeks ago. After what they calculate to be 1,500 Kassams in 1,900 days, with eight deaths, the good citizens of Sderot resent their government's inaction. They often seem as angry at Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as at their murderous Palestinian neighbors. "Sharon Wake Up, Olmert is in a Coma," one sign in the town square reads.

The residents have endured this harassment for far too long. Here, too, the questions easily switch from the strategic to the existential. Why is it, so many wonder, that Gaza's Palestinians have devoted their energies in the year since disengagement to trying to destroy Israel, rather than building a peaceful future?

The fact that this two-front war has been launched from areas evacuated by Israel army's has undermined the credibility of Israel's peace camp - as well as Olmert's pro-disengagement government. In Sderot on Sunday, most people blamed the Gaza disengagement for intensifying Palestinian attacks.

Moreover, the Palestinians' deadly shell game of spring and summer highlighted one of the more depressing aspects of the Palestinian-Israeli clash and a lingering source of Israeli insecurity. The widespread Hezbollah-Hamas desire to eliminate Israel, and Palestinians' success in peddling their one-sided narrative to the world remain unnerving.

To Israelis, Eliyahu Asheri was a murdered 18-year-old "teenager"; to most reporters - who carefully call terrorists "militants" and perceive a nonexistent "pragmatism" in Hamas - Asheri was a dehumanized, evil "settler." That this worldwide winning streak continues even with Hamas terrorists heading the Palestinian Authority truly is unfathomable.

A quintessential clash between Israeli facts and Western delusions followed the tragic deaths of the seven Gazan picnickers on the beach in mid-June. Even as forensic experts doubted that an errant Israeli shell was responsible, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Olmert, angrily demanding an inquiry. Olmert is said to have replied, "Why didn't you phone me after 30 rockets were fired at Israel and say you wanted this investigated?" In his shockingly candid, outrageously unprofessional, depressingly characteristic response, Annan supposedly said he had no idea there had been so many Kassam attacks.

With Hezbollah's Katyushas there will be no such delusions. The hints of optimism some of us detected from Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert just a few weeks ago have disappeared amid the smoke emanating from the guns of Hamas and Hezbollah. The bulk of Israel's citizen will remain safe, clustered near the population centres of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Still, Hezbollah and Hamas have helped destabilize the region, delegitimize Israel's centrist peace camp and militarize the conflict.

As the European and UN leaders issue their ritualistic calls for restraint, as if successful counterattacks against mortal enemies can be mounted politely, while more biased forces chide Israel for "collective punishment," as if the latest polls don't demonstrate widespread Palestinian support for these attacks, it is time for Israel's critics to acknowledge Israel's enemies' brazen brutality.
Hamas and Hezbollah have repeatedly called for Israel's extermination - and acted to realize their twisted ideals. While the appropriate response is debatable, chiding Israel without acknowledging the lethal realities of the challenges facing Israel reveals much about the Western capacity for self-delusion. True statesmanship requires honest evaluations not blind moral equivalence. Especially this month, Israel has been victimized enough.

Outsiders need the same brazen honesty as Israel's enemies, while using those skills to find a new more stable status quo rather than triggering unnecessary and unsought wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

"Especially this month ,Israel has been victimised enough" says Troy.

Israel has one of the most deadly killing machines in the world and has spent decades perfecting its use.
It murders civilians with regular impunity.

It pursues Palestinian refugees and slaughters them in their refugee camps.

It has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967 and kills,imprisons and humiliates at will.

It shells Gaza from the sea,from the air and from the land .
It kills civilians,young and old,infant and the infirm without restraint.

It is bombing hell out of the Lebanon where it has a history of attacking civilians.Remember Qana ...and those Mudcat readers who don't... do look it up.170 Lebanese refugees slaughtered at a UN base by Israeli artillery shells.

Israeli armed forces supervised the slaughter at Sabra and Shatila camps in Beirut in 1982 where literally thousands of Palestinian women,children and old people were butchered by Israel's fascist allies despite US guarantees for their safety.

When the Palestinians have gone to International courts of Law to defend their rights they have been ignored by the Israeli military.
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

It appears Carol is correct in her view about the role played by Hezbollah in the Lebanese government. They have made themselves essential to any coalition. Story of how they did it is detailed in the Wall St Journal 10 July 2006.

First of all, they engendered much good will in Lebanon by their extensive social services work--"far more efficiently than the Lebanese government in many areas". Hezbollah "turned the goodwill engendered by its social-services work into political might".

In the campaign for seats in Lebanon's 128-member Parliament, 12 Hezbollah members won seats. They turned the campaign into a referendum on whether Hezbollah should be able to keep its armed military wing.

Mr. Bush aided this process. A winning line in speeches was "The Americans have a big project against the Arab world--Iraq, now Syria, and next Hezbollah. And we must resist".

"When the results came in June 2005, Hezbollah and a few parties it had aligned with were huge winners, taking the maximum 35 parliamentary seats available to Shiite Muslims."

They made a demand that "all major government decisions, including the question of Hezbollah's weapons, be decided through consensual agreement, rather than a straight vote of the cabinet ministers. Coalition partners--the biggest was Future Movement, led by a son of the slain Mr. Hariri--needed Shiite representation in their government, and agreed to the conditions. That gave Hezbollah the power to veto just about anything it opposed."



Anybody who thinks Israeli attacks on Lebanon will cause the Lebanese government to jettison Hezbollah should consider whether the firebombing of German cities by the Allies hurt the German war effort--or pulled the German people together in adversity.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

From Wiki: Israel said it held the Beirut government responsible for the attack, but Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the raid and stated that he did not condone it. An emergency meeting of the Lebanese government reaffirmed this position. Hezbollah's action aroused varying reactions among Lebanese political forces. It was harshly criticised by many members of the largely anti-Syrian parliamentary majority, while Michel Aoun, despite his understanding with the party, declared that he supported the government's position. Outright support for Hezbolah came only from two small political forces, the Lebanese Communist Party and Suleiman Frangie's Marada party."

So why are Lebanese citizens being killed by Israel? The government of Beirut is not responsible for the attacks on Israel. Seems that ousting Syria from Lebanon is not good enough. Seems that democratically held elections do not satisfy Israel, either. Why punish the Lebanese people for something that Hezbolah has done? Hezbolah is not the government of Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:00 PM

From the Wall St Journal today 15 July 2006

Hezbollah's "military is in some ways stronger than Lebanon's national forces, while the group works closely with foreign backers Syria and Iran." ..."The group has largely succeeded in carving out a de facto exception for itself (in disarming militias), since its main focus is in fighting Israel--an immensely popular cause in Lebanon and across the Arab world."

"...with Lebanon's army dominated by Shiites sympathetic to Hezbollah, it remains highly unlikely the government will mount a serious effort to disarm the group."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM

Dianavan--

As I've indicated, Hezbollah is not "the government of Lebanon" but it is indeed part of that government. Problem is: they have made themselves essential to any coalition--and their cause is very popular--though perhaps the scale of the rocket attacks may not be. But without them in the government, civil war in Lebanon (again) is a very real possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Seth
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:21 PM

JERUSALEM
"I woke up this morning
and none of the news was good
the death machines were rumblin'
'cross the ground where Jesus stood
and the man on my tv told me
it had always been that way
there was nothing anyone could do or say
and i almost listened to him
and i almost lost my mind
then i regained my senses again
and looked into my heart to find
that i believe that one fine day all the children of abraham
will lay down their swords forever in Jerusalem

Well maybe i'm only dreamin'and maybe i'm just a fool
but i dont remember learning how to hate in sunday school
But somewhere along the way i strayed and i never looked back again
but i still find some comfort now and then
then the storm comes rumblin' in and i cannot lay me down
the drums are drummin' aga'in
and i cannot stand the sound
buti believe therell come a day when the lion and the lamb
will lay down in peace together in jerusalem

and there ll be no barricades then
there will be no wires or walls
and we can all wash this blood from our hands
all this hatred from our souls
and i believe on that day all the children of abraham
will lay down their swords forever in jerusalem

steve earle

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

The Israeli newspaper Haraatz has reported that a 26 year old Palestinian women suffering from cancer has died after being stranded at the closed border crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

Haaretz is an interesting paper - here is today's front page - it's an opportunity to read the news that people in Israel are getting (and not getting).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

"I'm as qualified to pass judgement on the Israeli occupation as I was to pass judgement on Jim Crow in the US south, Apartheid in South Africa, and on the Nazis for their crimes against humanity. If you think that standing up for human rights is propaganda, then you are hardly the humanitarian I had taken you to be. You need to learn a hell of a lot more than you currently do about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands before you will be in a position to tell me what I am saying is propaganda."

as usual, I am concerned with reasoned argument, even as I am concerned with the rights and suffering of ALL people. What I see (on both sides of the issue, not just yours, Carol) is a "choosing of sides", then arguments constructed to justify almost anything done by the chosen side. Definitions are streched, comparisons made, questions are mis-represented, unwarrented assumptions are built into statements and conclusions drawn that are ONLY valid IF one accepts those presuppositions, definitions and comparisons. Nor do I appreciate having my statement twisted to say that I CALLED your position 'propaganda'. I was referring to the verbal similarities.

I KNOW that the conditions that most Palestinians are forced to live in is unfair and demeaning and does not offer them reasonable opportunities to live meaningful lives....this hurts and saddens me. Neither do I think that Hamas and Hezbolah have reasonable approaches to address those inequities.

I simply do not see Jim Crow, Nazis, and Apartheid as examples of what is happening in the Middle East. Nor do I accept at face value that there was any clearly defined "Palestinian lands".

You say that 'occupation IS the provocation'....but IF one accepts that it is clearly 'occupation', why is wanton murder the proper resopnse? Why is not a Martin Luther King or a Mahatma Gandhi non-violent campaign a better idea? Do you just adjust your violence tolerant threshold to define ANYTHING done by the 'oppressed' as justified?

A number of posts ago, I referred to the Post editorial in which it was claimed that the very existence of Israel was the issue....and as I read your posts, you have come within a whisker of saying just that. "Occupation IS the provocation"

What you don't realize, because I am not willing to 'choose sides' and defend either set of arguments, is that I actually SEE the point that it might have been a mistake in 1947 to create Israel at all! At that point the Jews were in 'roughly' the same position that the Palestinians are now, and they had a LOT of sympathy. They clearly needed support and some sort of reparations for centuries of persecution. But why a COUNTRY carved into lands that many people had ethnic & religious claims to?

Now we have, 60 years later, a practical problem. It is a problem much like many others in the history of the world.....it was DONE...like the 'occupation' of the USA, to the detriment of the Native Americans, the 'occupation' of Mexico by Cortez, to the detriment of the Aztecs, or the creation of Northern Ireland. What do we DO to redress the injuries?

Hamas, Hezbolah and several countries have stated policies that the situation will not be 'right' until Israel ceases to exist. Therefore, they state that they WILL continue attacks, no matter whether Israel 'withdraws', sits tight or expands. Now, whether they or you) like it or not, Israel IS a country, recognized by the UN, no matter how they got there...and AS a country, one should not be surprised to see them make the case for defending themselves against attack. If you simply, in all cases, define their defense as agression, there is nowhere to go but where it is going....the Gingham dog & Calico cat syndrome. All that can be done, without a full-scale war involving Iran, Syria, Lebanon...and perhaps the Saudis! is to snipe and hurt and make Israeli life awkward. Wonderful scenario! A full scale war there affects the entire world! And you KNOW sides will be chosen based on issues other than exalted ideas of 'right'.

The Israelis got where they are by sympathy, some adroit maneuvering, and some good luck...the Palestinians need to learn from that and use tactics other than mangled bodies. There have been short periods of calm in the area in the last 10-15 years, but in my reading of the news, it has been supporters of the Palestinian cause who felt that Israel was not being cooperative enough (and they may be right) and who therefore decided to resume atrocities to provoke more conflict.

I do NOT see Israel saying "sure...we'll just disband as a country"...and Israel has (right now) the firepower to cause more pain than they suffer. It is frustrasting to watch an Iranian bred & funded agitator force Lebanon into direct conflict with Israel...and equally frustrating to watch Israel overreact and use one or two soldiers as an excuse to escalate the situation.

I repeat...BOTH sides are being stupid and unreasonable.....and boy, they sure are provoking some unreasonable arguments as folks set their jaws and defend one side or another!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:08 PM

I'm thinking that both Iran and Israel are making not unconsidered moves, although Israel is more the reactor than the initiator. Iran through the actions of their associates in Lebanese Hezbollah are drawing attention from their nuclear confrontation with the rest of the world. They are also reducing a certain amount of pro-Israeli sentiment that had been developing since the Gaza pullout and the Islamic pan-European terrorism.

Israel has been concerned with the growing power of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and probably with the stockpile of weaponry which is now being used to penetrate northern Israel. They probably see this as an opportunity to cut 'em down to size. They are probably aware that every bruised knee in Lebanon will be blamed on them, but are hoping they can endure the opprobrium. With Sharon out of the picture there is no strong leader with military experience, and this is an attempt to reassure the Israeli public that they will be protected.

The difference between "stupid and unreasonable" and "logical, planned, and well thought out" is often difficult to discern.

Check out the book "The Guns of August"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM

yep, robomatic...all that too! It is a chess game, with a calculated plan to end up with 'victory', no matter how many pawns lie strewn beside the board.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

*generalized guiding principle*

"It all depends of whose Ox is being gored!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:55 PM

With the circle of violence in the Middle East expanding alarmingly, it is important to be clear about not only who is responsible for the latest outbreak, but who stands to gain most from its continued escalation.

Both questions have the same answer: Hamas and Hezbollah. And Israel needs to be careful that its far-reaching military responses, however legally and morally justified, do not end up advancing the political agenda that Hamas and Hezbollah hard-liners had in mind when they conceived and executed the kidnappings of Israeli soldiers that detonated the fighting.

The Palestinian Authority, which Hamas controls, and the Lebanese government, in which Hezbollah is a minority participant, inexcusably failed to prevent or halt these incidents. Iran, which arms Hezbollah, and Syria, which shelters the most violent wing of Hamas, also share some responsibility.

Israel is fully justified in treating these two incidents as unacceptable acts of aggression. But it needs to better adapt its methods to the circumstances it now faces. The point is to weaken and isolate Hamas and Hezbollah, while denying them opportunities to rally broader Arab support. To that end, Israel must focus its fire much more directly at the leaders and fighters of these two groups, and do far more to minimize the damage to civilian bystanders.

Here's why: The military chieftains of Hamas and Hezbollah fully understand that their primitively armed guerrillas and limited-range unguided missiles are no match for Israel's world-class military forces. When they engage in provocative operations, like the recent kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and shelling of Israeli towns, they do not expect to win any kind of traditional military victory.

What they more realistically hope for is that the inevitably fierce and devastating Israeli military response will hand them an opportunity to radicalize Arab politics and thereby pressure moderate Arab leaders to distance themselves from Israel and embrace the guerrilla cause. That is a tactic that secular Palestinian guerrilla groups like Fatah pioneered decades ago, and that Islamist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah now use for similar ends.

This perverse dynamic is again coming into play after Israel's wide-ranging forays into Gaza and Lebanon. Most Arabs are not blaming Hamas and Hezbollah for provoking these Israeli raids. They are blaming Israel for carrying them out.

That is not fair. But it is the way things work in the real world, and the provocateurs of Hamas and Hezbollah and their allies in Damascus and Tehran understand how to use it to their long-term advantage. Israel's political and military leaders need to understand it too and not let themselves be drawn into the provocateurs' game.

---

Published as an editorial in the New York Times July 15, 2006. I tend to agree with the editorial, but I wish the poster had given proper attribution.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

While it goes without saying that increased Israeli restraint will be vital to pull the Mideast back from the brink of all-out war, those calling for Israel to let up also need to address the attacks that have driven it to act with such force: the Hamas and Hezbollah incursions and kidnappings on Israeli soil, and the continual barrage of missiles from Lebanon and Gaza.

Israel needs, and is entitled to, a quid pro quo. But it is not going to come voluntarily from Hezbollah and Hamas extremists bent on Israel's destruction, or from their backers in Syria or Iran.

There is a widespread belief that Israel and the Palestinians would eventually reach a two-state peace settlement if their attempts weren't constantly and deliberately disrupted by armed extremists.

Israel blames the Lebanese government for allowing Hezbollah free rein in the south, and the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority for not disarming the Gaza militias. It blames Syria and Iran for aiding and abetting these groups.

Although it is impossible to deny that shared culpability, it is also true that the rest of the world has pretty much sat on its hands where these peace breakers are concerned. And while it is difficult to argue with yesterday's Financial Times editorial, which said the Israeli offensive "cries out for international intervention," the same international intervention is just as sorely needed on the other side of this escalating fight.

It ought to start with the powerful industrialized countries at today's Group of Eight summit in St. Petersburg, Russia. And it ultimately would have to include Arab countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. But whatever form it takes, international intervention must aim at reducing hostilities on both sides of Israel's borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Ifor
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

Those who argue that both sides in the conflict are equally to blame are copping out big time.
Time and time again the Zionists and the Israeli state have been the aggressor in the Middle East.
From the very first Zionists who arrived at the end of the 19th century they have sought to take land from the Palestinians and use force when and where necessary.The foundation of the Israeli state was founded on the "El Nakhba[the catastrophe ]" of the Palestinians who were driven out of their homes and cities at the point of a bayonet.
These refugees and their children have no right of return.

Since that time Israel has waged a long war against the Palestinian people and its near neighbours in Egypt, Syria the Lebanon and Jordan.

Israel has been backed to the hilt by the USA which has a huge responsibility for the state of the Middle East today.It has armed Israel with the latest weapons and technology and funds its economy.Without American support Israel would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

The USA uses Israel as its terrifying guard dog in the region.Those pesky arabs have the oil which the USA regards as its own .Israel is used to keep these countries in order and their usually corrupt leaders in line.

Israel is used to pummel the Palestinians so that they "do not raise their heads".

The Zionists howl with rage when they hear criticism of Israel and its murderous policies.They have been taught to believe that Palestinian lives are worthless so that when an Israeli quarter tonne bomb pulverises a Hamas leader in his flat it matters not that innocent men ,women and children were slaughtered in the carnage.

Something similar happened today in the south of Lebanon when some 18 civilians fleeing the Israeli warplanes were incinerated in their two cars.

Reading George Bush's call for restraint today was grotesque,That butcher was responsible for Operation "Shock and Awe" which saw hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs targetted on on the people of Iraq.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

Calling a sheep a dog will NOT make it bark. You should know that by now, Ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

Isreali warplanes have attacked the lighthouse off Beirut together with the city centre and the port area.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

Yeah. I posted the following yesterday at 4:36 PM:

"The Israeli army said an Israeli naval ship was in Lebanese waters, apparently by a rocket. The damage was not serious and there were no injuries, a spokesman said. Officials would not give the vessel's exact location."



As result of this crap, Israel will, within 24 hours, do some serious damage to Beirut. Welcome to the world when neither side will listen."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,HUGO
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

According to the Ramallah based Mandela Institute for Human Rights Israel is holding 9600 Palestinian political prisoners including some 150 women and about 380 children.
The prisoners are being kept in prison camps and detention centres which do not meet internationally recognised standards.
The fighters holding the Israeli soldier in Gaza are calling for the release of the Palestinian women and children prisoners in exchange for his freedom.
Torture and abuse is common in Israeli jails and Amnesty International has many concerns about the conditions the prisoners are kept in.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

True.

And things are good in Syrian, Jordanian and Lebanese jails, right?

What you guys fail to understand is that both sides are wrong here. Until such time as you DO see that, you are really doing little here but trying to out post the people you perceive as the opposition. And those people are NOT the oppposition. I really wonder how many times you have tried to rein in Hezbollah or Hamas. Otr even if you DARE try. Likely not, because you know damned well they'd double tap you in a flash. If you really want peace in the region, then you would better get it by addressing the various parties involved who are violent and not much better than each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:44 PM

Actually, over the years the United States has given large sums of money to Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority (Until the terrorist organization Hamas gained power), and Israel. In the Soviet Era the dictator Nasser was heavily subsidized and weaponized by the Soviet Union. The PLO was funded from Soviet coffers and also the UN. The Israeli government didn't receive US government funds in any large size until the Soviets got heavily involved on the sides lf Israel's enemies.

Most of the early pioneer settlement was based on land grants from land purchases by Zionist organizations. It was only with the outbreak of war that land fell into Jewish hands as a result of how that war fell out.

Considering that Saudi Arabia and Iraq have funded the families of Homicide Bombers, that the oil money is all on one side, there is no doubt that the big money here is on the side of the Arabs. Israel is lucky to have any kind of economy at all after being forced to pay heavily in men and materials for defence.

The so-called Palestinian term Nakhba gets redefined to suit the occasion, apparently. The longer they sit in those camps and the more of them there are, the better they used to be, the more populous and prosperous the Holy Land was until it must've been a virtual paradise about the time in WWI the English and their minions kicked out the Turks. So why not let's invite the Turks back.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

The charity War On Want has criticised a number of giant companies in Britain for their role in the oppression of the Palestinian people living under Israeli rule.
Connex a train company with a poor reputation in Britain has built a light railway across Palestinian land on the occupied West Bank while Tescos and a number of other supermarkets are now selling goods produced by Israeli companies on the West Bank.
Catterpillar has supplied huge bulldozers used by the Israeli state to demolish thousands of Palestinian homes again on the illegally occupied West Bank and also in Gaza.
The American peace activist Rachel Corrie waskilled by an Israeli soldier while trying to prevent one of these demolition raids.
james

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

I wonder who supplies the rockets to Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:02 PM

REPLY TO PEACE
The expert to ask on the state of prisons in those horrible far flung dictatorships is none other than your old pal George Bush. He has spent the past five years sending prisoners [not convicted but does that matter? ] on secret "rendition" flights across the globe.
Oh and of course he also does a nice line in American prisons on Guantamano and in Afghanistan.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

Would it be the same country that supplied the stinger missiles to Afghanistan all those years ago?
james

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,DAN
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

Two more Palestinians have died at the crossing point between Gaza and Egypt.One was a man of 24.Around 1000 people are still stranded at the locked down border checkpoint in the sweltering heat.One family have been there for almost a month.
Two days ago part of the wall was blown up and some 2000 escaped into Gaza before the gap was sealed by Egyptian security police.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

The Israeli army covered itself in glory 3 days ago when it ransacked a community centre housing two kindergardens for infant children.They trashed the place and left with the centre's 6 computers.The kindergardens ,situated in the town of Jericho, provides a lifeline for some of the town's poorest children.
The centre which depends on charitable funding has been left destitute.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:49 PM

Wedding Bell Blues
Yesterday Israeli border polie attacked a 150 strong wedding party at the village of Bi'lin on the occupied West Bank.The wedding party made up of Palestinians and international visitors were celebrating at the huge apartheid wall when the border police waded in injuring 23.
The wall has caused much anger in the village as it cuts the villagers off from their land and is a monstrosity.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Girl by the whirlpool
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM

Peace asks, "I wonder who supplies the rockets to Hezbollah?"

That would be Iran. The Iranian puppetmasters have complete control over both Hezbollah and Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM

"complete control over Hezbollah"--not likely. They are very likely supplying missiles--and are willing to exploit the situation, to say the least. But "puppetmasters" is bit strong. Not everything is a conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

I wonder how many Israelis have been killed?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:15 PM

Main question appears to be:   Israelis think that by making life miserable for the Lebanese in general, they will generate enough pressure within Lebanon itself to disarm Hezbollah. Will this happen? I would guess it is unlikely--more likely outcome is to stiffen Lebanese resistance---and support of Hezbollah.

But one thing is clear--the US has little if any leverage on this, even if Bush were to try--which he won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

This is a bad mistake.
The NU has GOT to get in there now.
Where the F is the UN?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:22 PM

"none other than your old pal George Bush."

He ain't MY old pal, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:31 PM

Problem is the vast majority of the UN will want to put pressure on Israel. To do that you would have to convince Israel that its attacks on Lebanon are not necessary for survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:57 PM

Hezbollah has to cease its attacks too. The headquarters was hit in Shiite neighbourhood. Like, no one knew it was the headquarters, right? No one here but us innocents.

"Hezbollah said its leader Hassan Nasrallah was unhurt after Israeli missiles blew up his home in Beirut and one of the group's offices. Israeli officials acknowledged that the strikes were aimed at killing him."

So, the Lebanese government doesn't support terrorist action?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM

"Those who argue that both sides in the conflict are equally to blame are copping out big time."

No, they are refusing to see one side as evil perpetrators and the other as innocent victims.

Until both sides take responsibility for their actions and stop finger pointing, playing victim, and using that as an excuse for further massacres, bombings and other violations, this conflict will continue unresolved leaving a trail of bodies on both sides.

Both "sides" have documents attempting to prove their historical right to the land. Both sides document the horrible crimes by the other side against their people.

I have a colleague who worked as a negotiator in Northern Ireland. His job was to get people listening to each other, genuinely listening to their experiences until they felt someone was finally listening.

Speaking of cop outs, I think the creation of Israel was a huge cop out by European countries after the second world war. Rather than work to eliminate racism in their countries, to protect people from all backgrounds (as Germany has since tried so hard to do) they sent the problem elsewhere.

Any Israeli listening to me talking about listening would laugh - they are surrounded by countries who are determined to wipe them out. Just as they seem determined to wipe others out. It is a horrible Catch 22.

It is a cop out to take a side in this process. I admire the people on both sides who are working towards reconciliation. That is the only side to take.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:06 PM

Hear, hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:48 PM

Freda:

You are stating a common misconception when these arguments arise. It is true that Israel's neighbors have seeked to wipe her out, including her inhabitants "into the sea". In population and wealth they are more than capable of it. Israel does not seek to wipe our her neighbors, nor is she capable of it (Unless it is indeed true that she is nuclear armed in which case I think it would mean her self-destruction as well).

It is not enough to make the brush broad enough to make it impossible to distinguish between the sides. It is possible, and it should be obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:15 AM

"So it was Sharon who could order 8,000 Israelis out of the Gaza strip in a unilateral withdrawal. As an architect behind the illegal settlements, he had the authority to order the retreat - and send the Israeli army after those who refused. He had become persuaded that the best way to protect Israel was to retreat, and no one could accuse him of cowardice. It is hard to think that, just last Christmas, Israel and Palestine were so close to peace.

Rather than take the chance to live peacefully in the newly evacuated Gaza, Hamas used it as a position to make a raid on a border post and kidnap Gilad Shalit, a 19-year-old soldier. When Lebanese Hezbollah kidnapped another two, his resolve was tested on two fronts. Hence he has launched air strikes on Lebanon, and has sworn to get the hostages back. Without Sharon's reputation, Olmert has to make his own."

Excellent article, IMO, here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:40 AM

"Israel does not seek to wipe our her neighbors, nor is she capable of it"

That is not at all obvious, Robomatic.

Last Wednesday Hezbollah's border raid captured two Israeli soldiers and left eight more dead last Wednesday. Hezbollah on Saturday launched rockets at Tiberias in the deepest such attack on Israel. Four Israelis were injured.

Israeli raids have killed more than 80 Lebanese. Israeli air-to-ground and gunboat shells hit a bridge on the road from the Beirut to the airport, south of the city centre. Hezbollah's offices in Beirut were destroyed. Hezbollah injured four Israelis in cross-border rocket attacks on Tiberias. Israel has deployed Patriot interceptor missiles in the northern port city of Haifa which was hit by rockets earlier. It also warned Lebanon not to fire on Israeli aircraft.

Israel expanded its bombardment on Saturday, attacking a large number of targets across the country. Warplanes fired rockets on the Lebanon-Syrian border and hit the centre of Beirut for the first time on Saturday.

Eighteen Lebanese civilians, including women and children, were killed on the coastal road to the southern city of Tyre when their vehicles were struck by missiles as they fled a village.

Thousands of foreigners are trying to leave Beirut, leaving its economy in tatters. 22,o00 Australians are in Beirut and can't get out.

The Israeli Army has said any responsibility for endangering the civilian population rested with Hezbollah.

US President George W Bush put the blame squarely on Hezbollah and said Syria should act to curb the group's operations.

back to the fingerpointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:36 AM

The Israelis could be killing one helluva lot more people if the slaughter of civilians was their purpose. They have the firepower to do that. I think what is happening is that most folks really do not understand the Israeli mindset to do with this. Understand, they will NOT back down until they have their soldiers returned. I do not see Hezbollah being reined in, and this is about breaking the 'power' of Hezbollah. The brinksmanship is about to start with Iran. And if Iran thinks it's not reachable by the Israelis, they are in for one helluva shock.

There is for the first time in Israel a leadership that is not military. Fact: they do not know where the 'edge' is. I would suggest that by mid week, some neighbouring countries will realize that maybe they should start being scared, because the Israelis are mad as hell and there will be some serious shit-kicking handed out. The loss of life in the coming war will shock people. And I think at the end of the war, even the Israelis will weep for the destruction that has happened. This is a no-win situation.

Hezbollah is going to find out about the extermination they have promised the Israelis. Unfortunately, the people they use as shields will have to find out first.

These fu#kin' heroes of Hezbollah who have said they'd 'take the war into the open': Please do. Get the hell away from civilians and go at it. But, no, that is not the Hezbollah we know, is it? They will let kids stand between them and the Israelis. And they will gladly let those kids get killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:37 AM

I agree with Freda' statement, "Speaking of cop outs, I think the creation of Israel was a huge cop out by European countries after the second world war. Rather than work to eliminate racism in their countries, to protect people from all backgrounds (as Germany has since tried so hard to do) they sent the problem elsewhere."

I must add, however, that was then and this is now.

Yes, its difficult not to take sides, especially when one side or the other says or does something that harms the people of the Middle East. I am especially alarmed at the response of Stephen Harper (Canadian MP) and George Bush. Where does he get off telling Syria what to do? Wasn't it Bush who wanted Syria out of Lebanon? Now that Lebanon and Palestine have had democratic elections, Bush has decided he doesn't like the results. When is he going to get it that the U.S. and its allies are unwelcome?

What gives Israel the right to bomb a country for the crimes of a few citizens? It was not the government of Lebanon who kidnapped the Israelis. Terrorists are criminals and do not speak for the citizens of Lebanon or any other country. The only result of Israeli aggression will be the creation of more terrorists.

Yes, Freda, it time for some listening. Unfortunately, the U.S., Great Britain, Canada and Israel cannot hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM

It was reported on the news this morning that the UN has failed to reach an agreement for a ceasefire in the Lebanon.The country's prime minister is desperate for such a ceasefire and has made urgent pleas for the conflict to stop as 104 mainly Lebanese civilians including infants have been killed in the Israeli shelling and bombing.

Lebanese diplomats in New York have blamed the USA for blocking the ceasefire proposals.

Meanwhile Israel continues to wage war against the imfrastructure of the Lebanon attacking ,shops,the port,vehicles,petrol stations,motorway bridges,and even a lighthouse.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:50 AM

If the Israelis wanted to destroy the infrastructure of Lebanon, they would destroy its four power-generating facilities. You do not 'get' it. Until Hezbollah is tossed put on its ass--disarmed--the Israelis will NOT STOP!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:55 AM

"What gives Israel the right to bomb a country for the crimes of a few citizens?"

I don't know that anything necessarily give sthem the 'right'. But, Lebanon has alloed Hexbollah to patro the border. A big mistake. The rocket attacks came from Lebanon. So if you were Israel, who the hell would you attack?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:14 AM

Human Rights Workers [HRWS] in the West Bank village of Beit Unmar have been attacked by Israeli occupation troops using tear gas.

The two workers were eating lunch in the back garden of a village house when tear gas grenades were lobbed at them by Israeli soldiers who wanted them to leave .They were in the village investigating Palestinian complaints about the massive apartheid wall that is now cutting off the village from its hinterland.

Twenty armed soldiers in hummer armoured vehicles then confronted teenagers from the village and fired rubber bullets at them. The Israeli soldiers damaged a taxi and arrested its driver who was released about an hour later.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:17 AM

"Attacks continue

Israel is continuing to pound targets across Lebanon, with no sign that its attacks on Hezbollah and civilian installations are nearing an end.

The latest Israeli air strikes have hit port facilities in Beirut and Lebanon's second biggest city, Tripoli.

There have also been attacks on roads and bridges leading to border crossings with Syria.

The Israeli army says Lebanon's transport facilities are being targeted to prevent Hezbollah importing missiles.

The Israelis say more than 70 rockets have been fired into northern Israel in the past 24 hours.

In a television address earlier, the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora pleaded for the United Nations to intervene.

"We've worked and we're still working on recovering from the Israeli invasion since 1982, 1993 and 1996, and here comes Israeli sabotage again," he said.

"I declare Lebanon a ravaged country, which needs an Arab international rising plan to fix all that was destroyed by the Israeli aggression."

Mr Siniora repeated his demand for an immediate cease-fire.


Peace process 'dead'

The President of the Arab League has declared the Middle East peace process is "dead" as foreign ministers met in an emergency session in Cairo.

The ministers unanimously condemned the Israeli offensive in Lebanon and called on the United Nations Security Council to intervene.

Israeli Government spokeswoman Miri Eisen says Israel is determined to crush Hezbollah.

"They're targeting the civilians [in Israel] on purpose, they're making the Israelis sit in the bomb shelters," she said.

"We can't let Hezbollah be the ones who define what's going to happen.

"We have to, we are determined to make sure that at the end of this was Hezbollah will not rule the south, will not have our kidnapped soldiers and will not be an armed force inside Lebanon."

In Beirut, many people feel Israel's attacks have undone years of progress after Lebanon's civil war.

But Israelis in the northern town of Nahariya say the military must stop Hezbollah from firing rockets across the border.

"We are behind the Army, we support everything they're doing because there is not another way," one said."

News report on the web.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:19 AM

Tear gas and rubber bullets.

Hezbollah would have used Sarin gas and dumdum bullets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:21 AM

When Israel invaded and occupied the Lebanon back in 1982 Hezbollah did nOt exist.

It was the invasion, and the devastation it brought ,that created Hezbollah.

The Israelis destroyed Beirut and other cities and occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years .

Eventually the mounting casualties inflicted by Hezbollah drove them back over the border.

It is difficult to imagine but in the 1960 s and 1970s The Lebanon was known as the Switzerland of the Middle East but The Israeli war machine driven by Zionist extremists like Ariel Sharon [the Butcher of Beirut ] put paid to that.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

Seventy rockets have been fried from Lebanon into Israel in the past 24 hours. All the targets were civilian.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Jackson
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

Only hours after the attack on the Lebanon was launched hundreds of anti war and pro peace demonstrators protested outside the Ministry of Defence in Tel Aviv.
They called for an end to the hostilities and dialogue over the captured Israeli soldiers.
They also called for Euorpean soldiers to be used as a buffer between Israel and the Lebanon and an end to the strangling of the Gaza by the Israeli army.
Jackson

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

"Arab foreign ministers, meeting in Cairo, adopted a resolution calling for U.N. Security Council intervention. But moderates led by Saudi Arabia, bickering with Syria and other backers of Hezbollah, denounced the Lebanese guerrilla group's actions in provoking the latest conflict."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:31 AM

But will the US add its voice to theirs?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Winslow
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM

The brunt of the onslaught focused more and more on Hezbollah's top leadership in south Beirut and the eastern city of Baalbek. Ambulances raced to a Baalbek residential neighborhood where black smoke rose from airstrikes. Israel also targeted the headquarters compound of Hezbollah's leadership in a crowded Shiite neighborhood of south Beirut for the second straight day.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Brigham
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM

The terrorists of both side must cease fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:05 AM

For whatever good it will do, I just e-mailed this to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Israel):

"I am pro Israel. Have been all my life. I understand your response to the recent kidnappings and attacks. But please, in the name of all that is holy, cease fire and allow non combatants to get out of Gaza and Lebanon. World opinion is beginning to see Israel as the terrorist. Please understand, I hate Hezbollah. They are bastards. I think the same of Hamas. I don't want to think the same of Israel. Please allow the people to get out. Cease fire for that length of time. I beg you."

Hope you all have a good evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:21 AM

To Peace
Your quip about Hezbollah using sarin gas reminded me that it was an Israeli El Al commercial jet which crashed in Amsterdam in 1992 .The plane was found to be carrying many of the chemical ingredients used to make sarin.Reports claimed enough was on board to make 5oo lbs of the deadly stuff.
We already know thanks to Mordechai Vanunu and other sources that Israel has a large nuclear arsenal but it also has used chemical and toxic weapons against the Palestinian people in Gaza and on the West Bank.
Israel has an enormous military capability, built up with the support of the USA and time and time again it has smashed civilian targets from Beirut which it last destroyed in 1982 to the refugee camp of Jenin which it pulverised four years ago killing some 500Palestinians.
During the past few months it has rained thousands of shells ,missiles and bombs on Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:35 AM

The Palestinian village of Beit Unmar was the scene of a peaceful protest last week which ended with Israeli soldiers beating,punching,strangling and kicking 2 Palestinian and nine international observers who had gone to try to stop Israeli bulldozers wrecking Palestinian orchards and destroying farmland.

The Israeli intend to grab land from the Palestinians to build a
security wall to protect one of its illegal settlements.
Beit Unmar has a population of 15000 Palestinians and is situated in the illegally occupied West Bank which is under Israeli military occupation.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Big Al
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:11 AM

What makes me despair is that there is any debate over the rights and wrongs of this conflict at all.

IT is CLEAR AS DAY THAT ISRAEL IS MORALLY, POLITICALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG.

Its creation, it's continued existence, its US support, its nuclear arsenal, it's oppression of the Palestinians…

EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS WRONG.

Unless, of course, you are a Zionist and only care about your own selfish interests that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

Israeli shelling on Gaza have killed a 75 year old woman and wounded 10 others including a baby.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:26 AM

"Israel has an enormous military capability, built up with the support of the USA"

And if it did not have this capability it would no longer exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:41 AM

MASSACCRE AT TANTURA!
On the 15th May 1948 around 200 Palestinian villagers from Tantura near Haifa were massacred by Israeli fighting forces.

The men were shot in batches of ten.The few survivors were expelled from the country and made their way to refugee camps where they were eventually able to give oral testimony to the massacre at Tantura.
The Palestinian village was erased with all its houses demolished except for one at the edge of the village.The village is now a parking lot.

When Bobad in the above posting justifies the arming of Israel by the USA we can all think back to the terrible slaughters across the
land that were needed to get rid of the Palestinians from their homes and land.And the slaughter continues with over a hundred Lebanese civilians bombed and incinerated by American built warplanes in the past few days.
.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Rondi Adamson
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

"I don't know of one democratic country in the world, one, that would accept and do nothing when 1,000 missiles are shot at innocent civilians at the heart of the country. Some of those who preach to us would have done a lot more in a more brutal, vicious and cruel way." These were the words of Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert early last week. I think Olmert is wrong in part. All who preach to Israel would have responded more viciously, brutally and cruelly.

I don't see how Israel could be accused of carrying out a "disproportionate act of war," as a French politician said last Thursday. I don't see how Israel is overreacting, given the aforementioned — and given the June kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, the kidnap and execution of a settler on the West Bank, the kidnapping of two more Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah.

Throw in, too, the rockets that have continued to come out of Gaza since Israel withdrew last summer. By withdrawing from Gaza, Israel was reversing a mistake.

I would like to see any Palestinian leader admit and reverse any mistake, even a tiny one, or even understand the concept. Israel left behind greenhouses, which had been worth $100 million a year in exports. Rather than build on that, Palestinians looted and destroyed them and continued firing rockets, without provocation, onto nearby Israeli villages. Israel has also withdrawn completely from Lebanon in the past six years. This has not stopped Hezbollah from shelling Israel sporadically over the years and from attacking Israel again last week.

Neither of these aggressions against Israel, therefore, can rightly be called territorial disputes. Unless we are discussing the fact that Hezbollah and Hamas consider Israel, itself, territory that should be free of Jews.

The Lebanese government has not taken care of Hezbollah. So it falls to Israel, which will take criticism for doing someone else's job. Hamas's military arm must be dismantled as well for the sake of Israel and the Palestinians, and any hope of a future for them.

The international community should worry less about Israel showing restraint when it is persistently under attack, and more about Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and Iran.

Hezbollah, with its links to those countries, must be dismantled as a military force. Not only for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the Lebanese people, the entire region, and the rest of us.

At the same time Iran was supposed to respond to an incentive package to give up its nuclear program, Hezbollah attacked Israel. Coincidence? I think not. Hezbollah is part of the larger game.

Mumbai, New York, Bali, London, Haifa. These are also all part of the same larger game, the global war on terror. If we accuse Israel of not being sufficiently "restrained" for responding as it has, what exactly will we do when our turn comes?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:32 AM

http://www.upstartactivist.com/downloads/IsraelandPalestine.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM

MYTH

"The Jews started the first war with the Arabs."

FACT

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country."1 Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews.2 Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood . . . ."3

Husseini's prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN announced partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year.4

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back.5 In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

On April 26, 1948, Transjordan's King Abdullah said:


[A]ll our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.6

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered.7 This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel's declaration of independence.

The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council:

Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.8

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:

The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.9

The British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:

Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM

"1000 missiles shot at the heart of the country"

Isn't that what Pres George Bush ordered in operation "Shock and Awe"when the American attack on Iraq got underway three years ago.
Perhaps it wasnt 1000 missiles ...I think it was many thousands of cruise missiles,big bombs and other weapons.....the killing he unleashed then is still going on strong ...and hasnt stopped.
Millions marched for peace then ...but the warguys got their way and to hear Bush support Israel ,and in effect allow it to carry on with its bombing of civilian targets in Lebanon...turning it into a freefire zone is grotesque... but entirely predictable.
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM

When I was studying international relations, a few eons ago, one of my professors had a theory about trouble spots in the world. He called them "shatterbelt zones- don't know if the term was original with him. As I recall, he defined them as areas in which 2 different groups of people claimed exactly the same territory. There were other criteria, which I can't recall. He looked at the problem as basically intractable.

But in his designation of such "zones" he included South Africa. So he appears to have been wrong in seeing all of such "zones" as unsolvable problems.

This indicates there is in fact hope--still.

I suppose the main difference between the 2 problems is that in the Mideast, not only are the 2 groups claiming exactly the same territory, but there's another factor not found in South Africa. States outside the actual area are using the belligerents--on both sides-- as their proxies. It's not a question of "puppetmasters"--they certainly don't have complete control--but the states outside seem to be able to stoke the conflict when it suits them--or at least take advantage of the situation--and obstruct efforts to solve it.

In the case of South Africa, many states outside seem to have been in favor of a peaceful accomodation.

So it appears that in order to solve the Mideast situation, the states outside have to be--all--convinced that there's no incentive to encourage the conflict, that their self-interest lies in peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Big Al
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:58 AM

Rondi Adamson, Zionist said above:

"The Lebanese government has not taken care of Hezbollah. So it falls to Israel, which will take criticism for doing someone else's job. Hamas's military arm must be dismantled as well for the sake of Israel and the Palestinians, and any hope of a future for them."

The ONLY way to 'take care of Hezbollah" and "disarm Hamas" is to disarm the sycopathic 'nation' which has nuclear missiles called Israel.

Israel reminds me of a stupid, brain dead fat kid in my old school who used to beat up the weedy kids but then burst into tears and run to the teacher when one of them kicked back. Except in Israels case, the teacher (America) just gives him a knife to go an stab the weedy kid. Then the stupid brain dead fat kid justifies stabbing the weedy kid to death beacuse he has dangerous feet!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Big Sal
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM

Big Al has it 'almost' there. Israel was the new skinny kid in school, who bulked up when four big fat kids went after him his first day on the playground. The big fat kids were also cowards with a couple of rich parents. they now pay the poor kids lunch money to kick the new kid in the shins, then whent the new kid defends himself they cry foul and throw rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:44 PM

so, as usual, the 'listmakers' have grabbed the thread, as if listing the latest bombs, missles and casualties proves their point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*generalized guiding principle*

"It all depends of whose Ox is being gored!"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM

Fraid so Bill, they belong to the, don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up, syndrome

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

REPLY TO BILL AND DAVE
What a smug pair of Zionists Bill and Dave are!
For years the Zionists have bullied ,browbeaten and humiliated the Palestinians .
Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank since 1967.It has illegally imprisoned thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank since that time and grabbed huge swathes of fertile land from them.Is that "listmaking" as you so arrogantly and condescendingly put it?
If the resistance in the 2nd World War were to make a list of Nazi atrocities would that be listmaking.I think not."Grabbing the thread indeed "! What tosh!
You Zionists are having to face criticism on Mudcat and you don't like it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:16 PM

No Walt merely presenting facts rather than fiction. I just know the history a little better than you do. Apparently when facts are presented it is commonplace to accuse the person presenting them as being biased, bigotted,racist etc... Sorry mate i'm just a simple worker with no axe to grind for either side. I also have worked towards helping the peace process in the middle east, no armchair warrior i have served in the front line so fuck off and have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

The news has just come in that Israeli warplanes have attacked houses in South Lebanon killing 25 and wounding 33 civilians including several children.
Israel has warned that it intends using the Lebanon as free fire zone ,a tactic used by the USA in Vietnam.
This tactic will come as no surprise and the plans have only had to be taken down off the shelf in the war room and given an update and a dusting down.Whatever the Zionist leaders claim they can do ....they overdo! In this case it is to commit state terror and mass murder.
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM

'"Israel has an enormous military capability, built up with the support of the USA"

And if it did not have this capability it would no longer exist.'

Well said, Bobad.


Dave (the ancient mariner): He has more right than most to remark on the situation. He's a guy who's 'been there and done that' with regard to helping refugees, DPs, and people living on the edge of starvation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

mercy, mercy! Zionist? I've been called a lot of things, but that's a first.

Dave & I share the honor of have no ax to grind in this mess...except the one that says it ALL wrong. 'Walt' proves my point by using the "anyone who doesn't agree with MY prejudices is a ********....*argument.

Sorry, 'Walt', there ARE no good guys in this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM

Hear, hear, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM

And to get to the stage of a regional heavyweight bully always ready and willing to grab more land from the Palestinians and conduct all out war with its neighbours it has needed American military,economic and diplomatic support.

Without that support Israel would have had to have reached a genuine and just settlement with the Palestinians and Lebanese many years ago.
Please spare the justifications for Dave 's [the ancient mariner ] support for Zionist Israel.
Try listening to the International Solidarity Movement witnesses who have been trying to prevent the Zionist land grab .Many of these brave people are Jewish but they are all appalled by the savage humiliation and murder of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli occupation forces.
Try listening to Gilad Atzman , a renowned jazz musician and former soldier in the Israeli army who is disgusted at what the Israeli army has done.Better still listen to the Palestinian people and experience their ongoing suffering.
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM

Please take your hatred elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM

I hear fron those who are speaking on behalf of Palestinians that they are angry that Israel is doing this. Listen up: so am I. However, I would give more consideration to your remarks had I ever seen or heard you talk against the shit known as Hezbollah and Hamas. Forget your revisionist histrionics--I see you being led by an ideology that does not care when Israeli kids are killed by the shite you support. Until such time as you demonstrate soemthing akin to a humane feeling for all people in the mid-East, I wish you would fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:56 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

The trouble with you Zionist supporters is that you have wanted the Palestinian people...the indiginous people of Palestine... to f*** off as you so inelequently put it for the past 100 years and they have refused to be beaten off their land or their page of history.

The Palestinians and Hamas are fighting back with what they have....which is no military match for the missiles,super bombs and heavy tanks and artillery routinely used by the Israelis.

As previously stated elsewhere Hezbollah was practically invented by Israel's war machine....it grew from nothing in response to an 18 year old invasion of Lebanon by the Israeli military with all the horrors that invasion brought into being.

Again Hamas came about with some subtle Israeli encouragement .The Israeli were keen to break the unity of the Palestinine Liberation Organisation and thought it could encourage an islamic group to drain away support from the PLO.

The result is ,a decade later, is a militant Palestinian govt which is not prepared to kowtow before the armed might of Israel.

Keep your crocodile tears for yourself!Palestinian kids have been routinely brutalised by both the Israeli army and Zionist paramilitary colonialists for decades. They have ben brought up with beatings ,rubber bullets,tear gas and imprisonment.Many have been killed or horribly maimed.

For years there has been a growing world wide movement in suport of Palestine ...it has been calling for peace and social justice and the return of Palestinian refugees to their homeland....the Zionists have jeered at them...they wont even acknowledge the name "Palestine "let alone accept that the Palestinians have a just case.If that were to happen the refugees would have to return home and the Zionist myth would be blown apart.
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:17 PM

The trouble with you Hezbollah supporters is that you don't really care about civilians or Palestinian or Lebanese kids. You care about your multi-posts to this thread under various GUEST aliases and your vitriol, a barely disguised hatred of Jews. You care about your ideologies and not the people involved. FOAD yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,JON
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:37 PM

Hezbollah is a resistance movement of shia muslim Lebanese.They can and do speak for themselves.

However,ther are now millions across the world who support the cause of a Free Palestine .

Among the ranks of the supporters of a Free Palestine are many,many Jewish people-both radical secularist and religious. You know that and if you dont you should reconsider whether Mudcat is the place for you to air your bigotry =the local bar would seem more appropriate somehow.

Take a look at who is supporting Israel's attack on the Gaza and the Lebanon...George Bush and his Texan oil cronies,the evangelical christians, rightwingers all, the arms dealers who have done so well dealing in death and misery,Tony Blair who has become a reviled figure in Britain and the neo cons in the Washington High Command who want to fight the Long War with every drop of some other mother's son.
By your friends ye shall be known!!!
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:39 PM

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that targets Israel. Yes, by your friends ye shall be known.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM

And speaking of your heroes from Hezbollah, Hamas and no doubt the Iranian 'specialists' who are in to help: All they have to do to stop the killing of civilians is to get away from those civilians. They made the challenge to Israel days ago; the challenge to bring the war into the open. The ball is in Their court now, not the Israelis'.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:59 PM

The International Solidarity Movement which works in the occupied West Bank to protect Palestinian human rights has reported that two of its human rights workers and several Palestinian children have been attacked by Zionist settlers in the Palestinian city of Hebron.

The victims were punched and hit with rocks and spat at before the incident ended and medical attention was given.
Apparently , the International workers were attacked after reporting an earlier attack on Palestinian children.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

Hezbollah Rocket Barrage Kills 8 in Haifa
Lebanese Guerillas Fire Rocket Barrage Into Israeli City of Haifa, Killing 8 As Conflict Rages

By JOSEF FEDERMAN

HAIFA, Israel Jul 16, 2006 (AP)— Lebanese guerillas fired a relentless barrage of rockets into this northern Israeli city during morning rush hour Sunday, killing eight people at a train station and wounding seven in a dramatic escalation of a five-day-old conflict that has shattered hopes for Mideast peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Oslo
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

'The Israeli attack came after a rocket slammed into the northern port city of Haifa on Thursday evening. Earlier, two Israelis were killed and another 120 were wounded when scores of Katyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah guerillas rained down across northern Israel.'

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

"2 More Israelis Are Killed as Rain of Rockets From Lebanon Pushes Thousands South
By GREG MYRE
Published: July 15, 2006
Rockets rained down on northern Israel for a third straight day, killing a woman and her 5-year-old grandson."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:37 PM

"I only have one eye. Do you want me to look at the speedometer or the road?"

Good article from the Timesonline.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:15 PM

Home>>World News
World NewsVIOLENCE IN MIDDLE EAST
Israeli PM warns Lebanon of "far-reaching consequences"
07/16/2006

CLIP

"The crisis was sparked last Wednesday when Hizbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid and killed eight soldiers in ensuing clashes. Since then, Israeli war planes have pounded targets across its northern neighbour, including the headquarters of Hizbollah in an attempt to hit at its leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. Hizbollah, a Shi'ite guerrilla group that has virtually carved out a separate state in southern Lebanon, is believed to have about 10,000 to 12,000 rockets in its arsenal, with a range of between 30 km and 70 km."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM

From the www

"Then Hezbollah killed eight Israeli soldiers and captured two in northern Israel. There appeared to be far fewer complications than in Gaza. This was aggression across a UN-drawn international border by a well-equipped state-within-a-state supported by Iran and Syria. Even more, the UN Security Council had demanded two years ago that Hezbollah be dismantled and replaced on the border by the Lebanese Army."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:39 PM

Peace - It would seem that demands by the U.N. Security Council were made before Hezbollah won 18% of the seats in Parliament. Hezbollah is part of the democratically elected, Lebanese government. (Wiki)

Since GWB forced Syria out of Lebanon, how can the U.N. propose that the Lebanese dimantle and replace Hezbollah? I doubt if they have the power to do that even if they have the will (which they don't).

Btw - Both Iran and Syria have said that although they support Hezbollah, they do not supply arms to Hezbollah.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah were chosen by the people in a free election.

"And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is..."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:43 PM

Peace - It would seem that demands by the U.N. Security Council were made before Hezbollah won 18% of the seats in Parliament.

Yep, you're right about that, D'van. But before that they had over a year and a half and still didn't get it done.

Also, in the last line, it's somewhat of a relief to see that Armageddon doesn't scan. If I ever meet 'C' J M again I will mention that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

My guess is that the reason the Lebanese did not replace Hezbollah with Lebanese soldiers is either they didn't have the capability or perhaps they didn't have the will. Don't forget, Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government and is very popular with the people. What are they supposed to do, go against the will of the people? Even if they did, would they be capable of doing that? I somehow doubt it.

Lets not forget that most Muslims in Lebanon see Hezbollah as their only protection against U.S. and Israeli aggression. If they didn't have Hezbollah and if the Palestinians didn't have Hamas, who would protect the people? Who would stop the aggression? If I were in their shoes, my attitude would be, better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:13 AM

Maybe so, D, but the recent Hezbollah attack has had terrible results. I think they pulled the tiger's tail once too often.

However, please understand that I did send that e-mail to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and I will post the reply if I get one. I take no satisfaction at all in kids/civilians from any country or place being killed by anyone's guns, explosives, planes, tanks or rockets.

It would not bother me one iota if every terrorist member of Hezbollah and Hamas were killed right this instant. However, it bothers me greatly that kids are being killed in this bloody war--kids from Israel, Palestine (such as it is), Lebanon, and possibly soon Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:16 AM

PS: I too don't think the Lebanese government COULD have forced Hezbollah off the border. It likely would have split the Lebanese troops sent to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:27 AM

The "Palestinian" supporters are in a self contradictory position. If the Israelis were really as powerful as these pro-terrorists maintain, they could march across borders and institute a pax Israelia". Since they haven't, they are motivated either by the will of Allah, or they are really not that powerful, and are well aware of it. Yet the assuredly wretched and weak Pally's or their surrogates, the terrorist quasi governmental organizations Hamas and Hezbollah are able to penetrate Israeli borders and now send rockets into Israeli cities. So maybe there's a reason for all this Israeli armament, and maybe they need all this armament because they are defenders and typically they don't choose to attack, they must be prepared to defend. If they have the kind of weaponry that everyone claims, why are there not tens of thousands of Arabs being killed? Either they don't have these kinds of weapons, or they are limiting their response.

The Pallys don't need a lot of weapons, they use everything they've got while they've got it, including their bodies. And they are then well recompensed by the Saudis. And get weapons from the Syrians and Iranians and those who can smuggle 'em in.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:43 AM

The Israelis have the materiel to kill tens of thousands of civilians if that was the intent of the IDF. It isn't their intent. If Hezbollah put down its weapons now, the war would be finished within the time it took to stand down the Israeli forces. The Israelis would stop. But the Israelis will NOT stop as long as they have Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM

Elliot Bruce has written an important article on the International Solidarity Movement's website showing how Israeli policy is strangling Palestinian life in the Jordan valley.

Palestinian farmers are being squeezed out. They are being separated from their markets, they are being denied water from the river Jordan and Israeli bulldozers trash their fields and orchards.The eastern side of the new apartheid wall is going to surround many of th communities chopping them into little bantustan zones.

If the farmers go to court to try to get justice they have to spend tens of thousands of dollars in order to be lucky enough to win a few thousand dollars compensation.

The Jordan valley is NOT Israeli territory it is illegally occupied and dozens of Zionist farms and settlements are being built there to create "facts on the ground"
Such is the reality ofthe occupation of Palestine by Israel.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

as usual, I am concerned with reasoned argument, even as I am concerned with the rights and suffering of ALL people.

No, I don't think you are, Bill. I don't think your arguments are reasoned at all. You keep saying that people are just making lists of grievances. That is not at all what we are doing. What we are doing is working to help people see why Israel must end the occupation. NOW.

What I see (on both sides of the issue, not just yours, Carol) is a "choosing of sides", then arguments constructed to justify almost anything done by the chosen side. Definitions are streched, comparisons made, questions are mis-represented, unwarrented assumptions are built into statements and conclusions drawn that are ONLY valid IF one accepts those presuppositions, definitions and comparisons.

I can only assume that since you are directing this toward me, you are saying that I have been doing these things. This is not reasoned argument. This is an ad hominem attack. If you want to engage in reasoned argument, you will take everything that I say that you want to dispute, and you will provide your counter arguments and supporting documentation. What you are doing is flinging poo. Poo that you are trying to pass off as reasoned arguments.

Nor do I appreciate having my statement twisted to say that I CALLED your position 'propaganda'. I was referring to the verbal similarities.

I don't see any difference at all between calling what I have said propaganda and comparing what I have said with what you consider to be propaganda. In fact, there is no difference.

I KNOW that the conditions that most Palestinians are forced to live in is unfair and demeaning and does not offer them reasonable opportunities to live meaningful lives....this hurts and saddens me.

Clearly you have no idea of what the conditions are like for the Palestinians or you wouldn't have described their situation in this way.

Neither do I think that Hamas and Hezbolah have reasonable approaches to address those inequities.

Maybe not, but they're the only ones who are fighting for the Palestinians' freedom. Everybody else... including you, are saying that the Palestinians should just suck it all up and not do anything at all to defend themselves.

I simply do not see Jim Crow, Nazis, and Apartheid as examples of what is happening in the Middle East. Nor do I accept at face value that there was any clearly defined "Palestinian lands".

This PROVES that you know nothing at all about their situation. And if you don't see the Palestinians as having any rights to live anywhere at all (which you have just indicated you do not), or any rights to have any rights, than you have removed any doubt from my mind about whether or not you are a racist.

You say that 'occupation IS the provocation'....but IF one accepts that it is clearly 'occupation', why is wanton murder the proper resopnse? Why is not a Martin Luther King or a Mahatma Gandhi non-violent campaign a better idea? Do you just adjust your violence tolerant threshold to define ANYTHING done by the 'oppressed' as justified?

If your view of the Palestinians weren't so colored by your racisim, you would know that there already are Palestinians who have tried that approach. And it has accomplished absolutely nothing. Why are the Palestinians the ONLY people on earth who are not allowed to defend themselves? And if non-violent approaches are the only valid ones, why didn't we just let Gandhi go and stop Hitler from killing Jews?

A number of posts ago, I referred to the Post editorial in which it was claimed that the very existence of Israel was the issue....and as I read your posts, you have come within a whisker of saying just that. "Occupation IS the provocation"

This is a lie, Bill. Israel's survival is in no way dependent upon keeping the Palestinians in the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in bondage. Or the Palestinians in Gaza in permanent lockdown.

What you don't realize, because I am not willing to 'choose sides' and defend either set of arguments, is that I actually SEE the point that it might have been a mistake in 1947 to create Israel at all! At that point the Jews were in 'roughly' the same position that the Palestinians are now, and they had a LOT of sympathy. They clearly needed support and some sort of reparations for centuries of persecution. But why a COUNTRY carved into lands that many people had ethnic & religious claims to?

Well, unlike you, I'm AM NOT arguing that the creation of Israel may have been a mistake. I am arguing that the Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Israeli stranglehold on Gaza needs to STOP.

Now we have, 60 years later, a practical problem. It is a problem much like many others in the history of the world.....it was DONE...like the 'occupation' of the USA, to the detriment of the Native Americans, the 'occupation' of Mexico by Cortez, to the detriment of the Aztecs, or the creation of Northern Ireland. What do we DO to redress the injuries?

END THE OCCUPATION AND LEAVE THE PALESTINIANS THE FUCK ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hamas, Hezbolah and several countries have stated policies that the situation will not be 'right' until Israel ceases to exist. Therefore, they state that they WILL continue attacks, no matter whether Israel 'withdraws', sits tight or expands. Now, whether they or you) like it or not, Israel IS a country, recognized by the UN, no matter how they got there...and AS a country, one should not be surprised to see them make the case for defending themselves against attack.

If, as you say, the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah will continue even if Israel withdraws, then Israel must withdraw for the simple reason that the occupation is morally reprehensible.

However, you are wrong if you think that withdrawing will not result in a dramatic reduction in violence against Israel. The majority of Palestinians will not allow a minority of extremists to kill their dream of having their own independent nation. They won't be able to guarantee that there will never be any more violence against Israelis, but Israel will be more secure than it has ever been when it ends the occupation. And then Israelis will also have the luxury of not being in the same category of hideousness as all of the other people who slaughter innocent civilians and commit ethnic cleansing.

If you simply, in all cases, define their defense as agression, there is nowhere to go but where it is going....

No, there is somewhere things can go. Israel can END THE OCCUPATION. Why are you not calling for Israel to do that? Because you don't see the Palestinians as human beings, Bill. It's that simple.

I do NOT see Israel saying "sure...we'll just disband as a country"

I am not now, and I NEVER HAVE ARGUED THAT ISRAEL SHOULD DISBAND AS A COUNTRY.

For you to suggest that that is what I have been arguing for is the most blatant of slanders. What I have been arguing for consistantly from the very beginnning is nothing more than for Israel to (I'm putting it in red letters so you can see it this time... you seem to have missed it all of the eleven million times I've said it)

I SUPPORT ISRAEL'S EXISTANCE

WHAT I AM ARGUING FOR IS FOR ISRAEL TO

END THE OCCUPATION


Try paying attention for once, ok, BILL?!?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:50 AM

Carol you are the Hanan Ashrawi for the rest of us ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:26 PM

NATIONAL EMERGENCY MARCH ON
                WASHINGTON TO DEFEND THE PEOPLE OF
                     PAESTINE AND THE LEBANON

                  12 NOON AT THE WHITE HOUSE
                     12TH AUGUST 2006

                   STOP US AID TO ISRAEL
          SUPPORT THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR PALESTINIANS
                NO TO WAR AND OCCUPATION

    The march and demonsration is being supported by a wide range of            anti war and Palestinian support groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM

COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT AND MASS TERROR
Refugees fleeing the Lebanon claim that Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian targets.One said that he had seen two hospital bombed and the BBC reported today that huge bombs had flattened three apartment blocks in Beirut.
Large fires are raging in Beirut and its port has also been attacked along with power plants,oil depots,houses ,petrol stations ,bridges and motorway flyovers.Hundreds of Lebanese civilians have been reported killed or wounded in the bombing.
The attack on the Lebanon has been marked by this attack on civilians and non military targets. The situation is worsening and some 400000 people are now displaced refugees .Many are sheltering in schools but there is hardly any fuel or electricity. Ambulances have to try to go on missions along roads which are being bombed and strafed and many bridges are destroyed.
Israel's revenge on the people of the Lebanon is taking the form of mass killing,collective punishment and the destruction of the civilian infrastructure.This is a form of state terror with one third of the population of the Lebanon being children. They are being bombed ,strafed and terrorised by one of the technologically advanced armies in the world.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

This is hard to do....I am startled by your reply. I tried to say I am upset by BOTH sides actions in this turmoil, but you see only that I am upset by your side's actions. That does NOT equate to defending Israel.


"If you want to engage in reasoned argument, you will take everything that I say that you want to dispute, and you will provide your counter arguments and supporting documentation."

This is precisely the sort of 'list making' I reject. I could never prove a point using this technique, as you would simply provide your lists. I don't know how to respond to arguments which have a great deal of the "When are you going to stop beating your wife?" built into them.

" I can only assume that since you are directing this toward me, you are saying that I have been doing these things. This is not reasoned argument. This is an ad hominem attack. "

..no, I'm sorry...it is not. I explained why I saw certain tendencies in the formyour arguments--I did NOT resort to simply calling you names and denigrating your character to make my point. You seem to have not understood exactly what ad hominem means.


THIS is ad hominem...

"... than you have removed any doubt from my mind about whether or not you are a racist."

"... you don't see the Palestinians as human beings, Bill. It's that simple."

I realize how deeply you hold your views, Carol...but NOTHING I have said above, nor anything I have done in my life deserves that sort of response.

I am sad, hurt, and working hard to avoid simply being offended. I will try to chalk it up to your intense concern.....but I won't debate it with you any more. We have gotten to a point where we can't talk about the same things.

sadly, I am slow to realize that I should just stay away from some issues, as I cannot deal well with the "you are either for us or against us" attitude.

.....(I will NOT reply to further accusations or admonitions in this thread...if that sounds like cowardice or something, so be it...)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM

Dianavan,

Your statment concerning Iran and the Hezbollah rockets is false.

http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1311

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29728

http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Dec-05/081205.html

"Finally, another strategic expert, this time from the US, Patrick Devenny, looks at the extent of the military and strategic threat posed to Israel by Hezbollah. Devenny particularly highlights the role of the 10,000+ missiles, mostly from Iranian army stocks, which Hezbollah is pointing at Israel. Devenny finds the threat of these missiles quite serious and also a barrier to efforts to deter Iran's nuclear program, and therefore urges an international to remove them."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

correction:

"Btw - Both Iran and Syria have said that although they support Hezbollah, they do not supply arms to Hezbollah."

Both Syria and Iran are lying. I cannot hold you responsible for their lies, though your acceptance of them without even looking for any contrary facts does not indicate an interest in finding out the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:06 PM

"And by the way, if you (and Israel) insist that killing civilians is justified if a military target is what is being aimed for, then by the same logic, all of Israel's civilian areas are military targets, because members of the IDF (and the proto-Israeli terrorist organizations prior to Israeli statehood) have been cleverly (and insideously) hiding themselves amongst the Israeli civilian population since before Israel declared itself a nation. "


Than you feel that, since the side YOU support DOES hide itself amidst the civilian population, that Israel is JUSTIFIED in killing civilians????? If not, than the Palestinians are wrong in attacking pizza parlors and birthday parties.





"You are, again, placing a much higher value on the lives of Jewish Israelis than on people who are not Jewish Israelis. This is, by the way, racism. "

No, Hamas and Hezbollah are placing that value- re the demands for hundreds to be released for one or two kidnaped Israelis. YOU are supporting the racists, not I.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM

Hezbollah must release soldiers, withdraw to get ceasefire: Israel
Article Tools

Canadian Press

Published: Monday, July 17, 2006

JERUSALEM -- Israel would agree to a ceasefire in its six-day-old offensive against Lebanon if Hezbollah guerrillas agreed to withdraw from border area and release two captured Israeli soldiers, a senior official said Monday.

The official, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had conveyed Israel's position to Italy's prime minister, who is attempting to broker a ceasefire deal.

Israel had previously demanded the full dismantling of Hezbollah as a condition for ending hostilities.

However, the senior official said Israel would agree to Hezbollah merely leaving the border area - with the Lebanese army taking its place.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

Bill, your accusations against me, when you clearly are not responding to my arguments, but rather to arguments you have invented in your mind and are projecting on to me, hurt my feelings long before I posted my response to you.

Try practicing what you preach for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:30 PM

This thread reflects the tensions going on over in the middle east (and the tensions, and anger found throughout the world) ... to have peace it must be found within ourselves .... but we are merely humans ... and to me that is not even an excuse.

But .. scoff it off and continue on your angry rants of who is right and who is wrong. It doesn't really matter what you say, it is who you are.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

Carol you are the Hanan Ashrawi for the rest of us ;-)

When you say that, robomatic, my hope is that what you mean is this...

"(She) shattered a number of Western stereotypes about Palestinians"

(context here)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:46 PM

Dave (the ancient mariner) is no more qualified to speak on this subject than any of the rest of us. When he presents his "facts" he is getting them from online sources just like the rest of us. His historical "facts" in his 6 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM post come from this website...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/


But the FACT is that almost all of the fighting leading up to and during Israel's War of Independence, occurrred on land that had been allocated to the "Arabs" by the UN, and from which Israel was in the process of ethnically cleansing all "Arabs".

Also during this time, Israel (through Golda Mier) had struck up an arrangement with the King of Jordan to divvy up the land that had been allocated to the Palestinians and although the King of Jordan did not openly admit to making and adhering to this agreement, he did, nevertheless adhere to it almost to the letter. With the exception of a few parts of old Jerusalem, his forces confined themselves almost entirely to the areas that his agreement with Israel allowed him to take.

Having said that, it goes without saying that Jordan's king was no more entitled to divvy up the Palestinians' land with Israel than Israel was entitled to take land that was given to the Palestinians by the UN.

And Dave is most assuredly not neutral on this subject. He supports continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

CarolC you have gone too far this time. I do not nor have I ever supported any such thing. Your post is nasty, childish and very untrue. Your vehement childishness proves you have no regard for fact or real knowledge of the history of the present conflict. It is because you act in such manner you are not worthy of debating with on any subject. The sites I post information are from the web, and as such the only source of information readily available for those who actually want to read about the conflict. Oviously you hate being presented with facts that refute some of your ideas but your manner of argument indicates a rabid personality with obvious mental problems. Tough shit lady

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:37 PM

SHALL WE DESTROY OR SHALL WE BUILD?
The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions today posted on its website information about its 4th annual workcampin the Palestinian town of Anata on the West Bank.

Around 30 International volunteers ,Israelis and Palestinians have been working to build a home for the Hamden family.This Palestinian family consists of an elderly couple together with their son,his wife and their four children.Their family home was demolished by Israeli occupation forces in 2004.

Today was spent clearing the site and putting in concrete foundations which was difficult as plastic bullets were being fired by the occupation forces nearby.

Since 1967 12000 Palestinian homes in the illegally occupied West Bank have been demolished by the Israel armed occupying forces.

What is encouraging about the work of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions is that it shows that both Israelis and Palestinians can work together to oppose injustice and brutality.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Residents in the Rafah and Beit Hanoun area of Gaza are now existing under the direct rule of Israeli occupying troops.Today at least three residents have been killed and eleven injured including two journalists and two paramedics .There has been a forced exodus of the population into other parts of Gaza but some 30 000 are suffering from the attacking Israeli army.
Houses are being bulldozered,detention centres set up in houses and civilians are being used as shields.Dozens have suffered from glass shrapnel An ambulance has been shot up and its crew wounded.
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:57 PM

EMERGENCY DEMONSTRATION
                     IN SUPPORT OF
                  GAZA AND THE LEBANON

       ASSEMBLE 12 NOON    THE EMBANKMENT, LONDON
                     SATURDAY 22 ND JULY

The demonstrators will be demanding an end to the savage attack on Gaza and the Lebanon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM

Carol:

I meant you were a strong contender for your viewpoint, as is Hanan Ashrawi an excellent representative for hers.

Guest, Hugo:

As Abba Eban observed regarding Israelis and Arabs living in peace, it is possible once all other avenues have been tried. It should be observed that house demolition is practised by Palestinian authorities as well on those whom they disfavor. Extrajudicial torture and murder of Palestinians accused of cooperating with Israelis has also been practised (by Palestinians).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:02 AM

A HARD RAIM IS GONNA FALL
Israeli's attack on the Lebanon is codenamed "Summer Rain ".It should have been called Hard Rain.The capture of two soldiers in the north and one in Gaza has been the excuse for the Israeli High Command to unleash death and destruction on an industrial scale mainly against the civilian population of the Lebanon and Gaza.

Apartment blocks,houses ,hospitals and offices have been hit.Bridges,cars,ambulances and power plants have been blown up in an act,an illegal act, of collective punishment.

The slaughter in both Gaza and the Lebanon has been indiscriminate.

It has never been about the capture of the three soldiers.They could have been freed by now along with hundreds ofPalestinian women and children who have been illegally detained by Israel in appalling conditions.One Lebanese man was arrested in 1979 as a 16 year old!


Tens of thousands of Lebanese were killed by the Israeli war machine during the last invasion and destruction of the Lebanon.But the result was the formation of Hezbollah which eventually drove Israel out of the south of the country which it had occupied for 18years.

The result of this bout of mayhem and state murder will also have far reaching consequences that Israel is unlikely to welcome.
The Zionist extremists who are in power in Israel have always wanted a Greater Israel .To achieve it they will have to wade through a river of blood.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:11 AM

Israel has said they would call a halt to the Lebanon front if the soldiers are returned and Hezbollah withdraws from the border and is replaced by Lebanese army regulars. Please send e-mails to Hezbollah and tell THEM about it, OK, Walt? You'll do some good there. And I'm sure they will listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:21 AM

The rockets used against Israel are fired from trucks who purposely do it from the shelter of Mosques, Hospitals, Appartment buildings and schools. When the plot indicates a target the Israelis fire back or do an air attack and of course the truck is gone and the casualties are classed as non combatants. Rather like the RPG's and snipers, who surround themselves with women and children in the hope the israelis will not shoot back, or that when they do the collateral damage can then be used against them in the international press.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:25 AM

"In 1989 the Lebanese parliament accepted an Arab-brokered peace accord for national reconciliation, and Syria assisted Lebanon's national army to control the country's various factions. The activities of Hezbollah, which Syria had used as a proxy in its efforts to combat Israel, were momentarily put in check, but the group had built cultural and political institutions that would insure its survival into the post-civil war era."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM

Two American citizens were savagely assaulted by Israeli security officers at the main crossing point from Jordan in to Israel _the Allenby Bridge.
Tina Hannounah a 47 year old American banker of Palestinian origin was badly beaten along with her 17 year old son ,Michael who suffers from chronic heart problems.They were in the country to visit family.
Michael was grabbed at the checkpoint by a security officer who shouted at him in arabic_a language he does not speak.Apparently the officer was after Michael's new ipod.
The officer then savagely beat Tina [her face can be viewed on the Palestine News Network ].
There have been at least 100 similar incidents reported at checkpoints during the past year.Only 10 official replies have been offered.This sort of harassment and beating and humiliation is the regular fare for the Palestinian people who are treated in a callous way by Israeli security and occupation forces.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:38 AM

Where's Walt?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM

More vitriol from Dave, I see.

CarolC you have gone too far this time. I do not nor have I ever supported any such thing.

Do you support the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, Dave?

Do you condemn the government of Israel for depriving the Palestinians in the West Bank of most of their water resources (forcing them to survive on a mere fraction of the water that is considered necessary for normal living, like, for instance, for washing, bathing, and watering their crops - while Israeli settlers in the West Bank use the Palestinians' precious water to water their lawns and fill their swimming pools)? Do you condemn that practice, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:42 AM

No CarolC I do not support expansion or settlements in the West Bank it is an illegal act to begin with. I condem the Palestinians for not spending time effort and money into solving the water supply problem themselves, since Israel has provided them with water despite the fact they wish to destroy Israel. Perhaps if Hamas were to spend a fraction of the money in foreign aid on farming and desalination plants instead of missiles and weapons it might help? I am sure if the Israelis withdrew fron the Golan heights water would be diverted away from them; and they would not only be dehydrated but be bombarded by more missiles into the bargain. Tough call isn't it?

The only vitriol is produced by you CarolC, and I am not interested in debate with someone as childish and unstable as you, get help and chat with someone who cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:55 AM

Israel has not provided them with water. Israel has confiscated their water. It's their water.

Israel is taking the vast majority of the water in the limited aquifer under the West Bank for Israel's use (and for the settlements), and it has forbade the Palestinians even from using wells that existed before the start of the occupation. And it has destroyed many others. It has placed rations on their use of water, while wasting large quantities of it on non-essential uses.

Israel is committing ethnic cleansing by depriving the Palestinians of the basic necessities of life... food, water, and shelter. Do you condemn this practice, Dave?

Nope. Yours is the vitriol. I'm just presenting the FACTS.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM

Why is Israel bombing the barracks of the Lebanese Army if its the Lebanese Army they want on the border?

Why are they bombing Christian sea ports if they're after Hezbollah?

Why are they targetting areas outside traditional Shiite areas?

Why does Israel think they can accomplish anything by indiscriminate killing?

Looks to me as if Israel is attacking Lebanon rather than seeking out Hezbollah. Seems to me that Israel wants a full scale war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM

I write to attempt an answer to dianavan's questions.
Israel's response to the capture of one of its soldiers is to destroy another country-ensuring that another generation will regard Israel as its enemy.In Palestine ,likewise, it has again unleashed terror on a monstrous scale.
The attack on civilians in both Gaza and the Lebanon has been vicious and indiscriminate. Both are in ruins with hundreds dead or wounded.
There is a real possibility of both Iran and Iraq being dragged into the conflict and only last week Israeli warplanes buzzed a palace belonging to the Syrian president Assad.
There are some in the White House who want to use the claim that Iran has supplied missiles to Hezbollah as the red light for an attack on Iran.
There is a real possibilty that the slaughter will spread.This is the most dangerous and bloody development in the region since Bush ordered "Shock and Awe"...the assault on Iraq using hundreds of cruise missiles and thousands of bombs in the first few weeks of the invasion.
dianavan is correct to point out that Israel is attacking the christian areas of The Lebanon in its orgy of desruction. It does not only seek to destroy Hezbollah it seeks to totally dominate the Lebanon itself.The thing the extremist Zionist leadership of Israel believes it can accomplish is the pulverising and humiliation of its neighbours whether in Gaza,on the West Bank or in the Lebanon.

But dont think this is something new.Israel smashed up the Lebanon 18 years ago raining death down on Beirut and the other cities in the country.It has violated Lebanese territory ever since the 1960s with its invasion,mass air raids,car bombs, assassinations ,occupation of Beirut,massacres in the refugee camps,its savage allies in the buffer zone ,laying down of 170000 mines in the country [which are still there ] and its occupation of the south.
In Palestine the story has been a similar one.Palestinian camps have been destroyed, Palestinian leaders arrested or murdered, some 160,000 acts of imprisonment have been inflicted on the Palestinians,9000 are still in jail including women and children and the civilian population of this non Israeli land have been brutalised in a thousand different ways.
But Israel will not get its way and still the Palestinians rise!!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

Empty Words. Still the Palestinians inherit the leavings of others and obey the inverse of the meek shall inherit the earth. They are given Gaza and choose to destroy buildings left to them, to mis-use agricultural goods left to them, to construct weapons and fire them into Israeli territory, to invade Israeli territory and kill Israelis.

Lebanon made a pact with the devil, the kind of pact that allows armed men to attack their neighbor unprovoked. The Hez'b'Allah are beholden not to the government of Lebanon but to their idolacized leader Nas'r'ullah and to their Iranian financiers. They have been building a large collection of rockets to hit Israeli cities with.

The Palestinians as the saying goes, never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. If they had made peace before 1967 they would have a wealthy economy now, and there would be no issue about enough water. If they had made peace immediately after the '67 war they would still have had most of these. If they had made peace under Arafat, they would have not so much but more than they have now. They are operating under some long held but erroristic beliefs:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Rather than me and my opponent feeling better, my opponent must suffer at all costs.

If Israel was gone they would fight each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

"Jul. 10, 2006
Israel Invades Gaza. That is in response to an attack from Gaza that killed two Israelis and wounded another, who was kidnapped and brought back to Gaza ...which, in turn, was in response to Israel's targeted killing of terrorist leaders in Gaza...which, in turn, was in response to the indiscriminate shelling of Israeli towns by rockets launched from Gaza.

Of all the conflicts in the world, the one that seems the most tediously and hopelessly endless is the Arab-Israeli dispute, which has been going on in much the same way, it seems, for 60 years. Just about every story you'll see will characterize Israel's invasion of Gaza as a continuation of the cycle of violence.

Cycles are circular. They have no end. They have no beginning. That is why, as tempting as that figure of speech is to use, in this case it is false. It is as false as calling American attacks on Taliban remnants in Afghanistan part of a cycle of violence between the U.S. and al-Qaeda or, as Osama bin Laden would have it, between Islam and the Crusaders going back to 1099. Every party has its grievances--even Hitler had his list when he invaded Poland in 1939--but every conflict has its origin.

What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. The event is not buried in the mists of history. It occurred less than one year ago. Before the eyes of the whole world, Israel left Gaza. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away.

How do the Palestinians respond? What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the U.N. A thousand rockets have fallen since.

For what possible reason? Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. But what can one say after the withdrawal?

The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed.

So in 2005 the Palestinians are given Gaza, free of any Jews. Do they begin building the state they say they want, constructing schools and roads and hospitals? No. They launch rockets at civilians and dig a 300-yard tunnel under the border to attack Israeli soldiers and bring back a hostage.

And this time the terrorism is carried out not by some shadowy group that the Palestinian leader can disavow, however disingenuously. This is Hamas in action--the group that was recently elected to lead the Palestinians. At least there is now truth in advertising: a Palestinian government openly committed to terrorism and to the destruction of a member state of the U.N. openly uses terrorism to carry on its war.

That is no cycle. That is an arrow. That is action with a purpose. The action began 59 years ago when the U.N. voted to solve the Palestine conundrum then ruled by Britain by creating a Jewish state and a Palestinian state side by side. The Jews accepted the compromise; the Palestinians rejected it and joined five outside Arab countries in a war to destroy the Jewish state and take all the territory for themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:59 PM

I seem to remember that the Zionists did lot of terrorising to get its hijack state including hanging British soldiers,blowing up the King David Hotel , slaughtering over a hundred in the process and massacring Palestinians right across the country from Deir Yassin to Tantura........and of course the Israeli state is still murdering,bombing and terrorising.
Thank goodness there are Israelis who do not support the terror strategies of their government because it is becoming clearer with each passing year that its ugly militarism, its thuggish behaviour and its military expansionism is leading Israelis to a dead end.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Guest, whoever

There was plenty of attacks on innocents by BOTH sides. As long as you are unwilling to recognize that fact, you have nothing to add to this discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:13 PM

for those who can't click...

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then or now and they were determined to get ALL of that remaining 25%. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became obvious to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:14 PM

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

Someone should dig through all the posts regarding the mideast ... edit them onto one big post and create a new thread ... called the History of the Mideast Then until now according to the Mudcat (not necessarily correct) .... this would eliminate anymore of these long hot aired rants from from those who want to express their knowledge of mid-east history ... all that would be required are daily updates to keep the thread recent and up-to-date.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

... The Digitrad of MidEast History.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:39 PM

Yes, there are plenty of deaths on both sides but you have to admit, beardedbruce, that the number of Lebanese civilians killed far exceed the number of Israeli citizens killed.

Will the number of civilians killed pave the way to a peaceful resolution? No. It will only engender more hatred toward Israel and create more terrorists. Regardless of right and wrong, Israel must negotiate a peaceful resolution to end the hostilities. Releasing Arab women and children from prison in exchange for the soldiers would be a good start.

Investigating Israeli soldiers for the unprovoked murder of Arab children would be another. Its one thing to be right but another thing to do what is right. Sometimes that means being compassionate and realizing that we all have the same basic needs. Killing the children of your neighbors does not make for peaceful co-existence.

I see no difference between terrorists and trigger happy Israeli soldiers. At this point, I don't even think its about land. Its about revenge and the Israelis are as vengeful as the Arabs. Maybe its time the Israelis took the moral high ground. If they don't, the rest of the world will be their judge and the Jews of the world will bear the burden. Thats what happens when you choose to be feared and hated rather than admired.

Israel has a very big choice to make. They can lead the way to peace or they can continue to make war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

"Israel has a very big choice to make."

Easy for you to say so dianavan. What stand would you make if you where an Israeli?? It's a lot more complicated ... arm chair critics can draw easy solutions.

I wish .. there where some Israeli Mudcatters here, or Lebanese ... they could post their opinions ... they're input would be the ones I'd listen to.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:03 PM

"Why is Israel bombing the barracks of the Lebanese Army if its the Lebanese Army they want on the border?

Why are they bombing Christian sea ports if they're after Hezbollah?

Why are they targetting areas outside traditional Shiite areas?"

Because that is where Hezbollah is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:11 PM

"It should not inflict "collective punishment" on the Palestinians or Lebanese. Yet, when it decides on what might be called "individual punishment" — that is, taking out people who have, and who don't deny holding, significant positions in organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah — then this is condemned too." From the article linked above.

Hello...?   Since when is collective punishment better than individual punishment? Who has condemned Israel for taking out people of significance in Hamas and Hezbollah? Besides that, whoever said revenge ever solved anything? Everybody knows that punishment does not work.

If this is the best reasoning Israel can come up with, its time to start fearing Israel as much as we fear terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

dianavan,

You and CarolC have ignored my comments that the Israelis DO NOT TARGET civilians, and Hezbollah and Hamas DO. Yes, there are CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN lEBENON- Israel targets the launch SITES of THE UNGUIDED, AREA BOMBARDMENT rockets that Hezbollah, having gotten 10 to 12 THOUSAND from the Iranian army stocks, is using to attack CFIVILIAN -NOT MILITARY- areas of Israel. If Hezbollah launches them from civilian areas, in violation of the Geneva conventions, THEY are to blame- YET YOU BLAME ISRAEL.

If Israel WAS targeting civilians, I think they could do better than 183 dead in a week- Even your friends the insurrectionists in Iraq are doing more than twice that.

So, I expect you to acknowledge the restraint that the Israelis have shown, given the few civilian casualties in Lebenon, IN SPITE of the best efforts of Hezbollah to make this a bloddbath of innocents.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

I have received two e-mail from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the last two days. Nothing is new or earthshaking. However, to respect the sender I will summarize:

1) Hezbollah (which the sender spelled with a Hiz) has to pull back from the border and stop firing missiles at civilian targets in Israel. When that happens there WILL be an immediate cesae fire on the part of Israel.

2) Israel is working as hard as it can to get foreigners out of Lebanon.

#####################################################

FACT: With the firepower Israel has available, if indeed they were targeting civilians, the death toll would be in the thousands if not tens of thousands. Read number 1) above and send messages to Hezbollah. See if they will listen to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,orif
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

Counter Example:

While Syria possessed the Golan Heights, Israel had difficulty controlling, settling, and expanding on its own land. Syrians shelled civilians and attacked across the border. For years.

After 1967 war, Israel took over the Golan Heights. Syrian civilians have not been harmed and Israel started no battles across this line. Syrians tried to invade it in 1973 but fortunately they lost.

There are people here who ignore the facts and blame Israel for fighting back. They are disappointed that Israel casualty figures are low. What kind of fare shake can be obtained from these people. Why should Israel care what they think? Most of these people have not acknowledged that Israel has a right to exist, while they claim there is some Palestinian state that does. There has never been a 'Palestinian' state.

When Allies invaded Normandy these same people would be ahgast at the unprovoked carnage, and they would blame the Americans and English for the French civilian casualties and say that both sides were to blame equally. Too bad there was no United NAtions then to make them all play fair and balance the deaths evenly on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM

Where is Walt?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

Which Walt?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

GUEST,Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

I have received two e-mail from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the last two days. Nothing is new or earthshaking. However, to respect the sender I will summarize:

1) Hezbollah (which the sender spelled with a Hiz) has to pull back from the border and stop firing missiles at civilian targets in Israel. When that happens there WILL be an immediate cesae fire on the part of Israel.

2) Israel is working as hard as it can to get foreigners out of Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

I'm here !
But my response to the Israeli's Ministry of Foreign Affairs assertion that

"Israel is working as hard as it can to get the foreigners out of Lebanon "

is to suggest that the Israeli warplaneS and warships are the foreigners that the Lebanese want out.Oh,and they should also get out of the illegally occupied West Bank.It is not Israeli territory and UN Resolution 242 requires it to withdraw.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM

The very dangerous mission of getting people out of Lebanon is complicated by the fact irregular warfare means one side or the other could blame any deaths incurred as the work of the other side.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:26 PM

There was a UN resolution that required Hezbollah to fuckin' well withdraw two years ago. Save it, Walt.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

Call upon the Lebanese government to fulfill its obligations under UN Security Council Resolution 1559 and disarm Hizbullah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

Here it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:33 PM

So, uh, Walt, Hugo, Shirley, Oswald, ifor, et.al: Have any of you written to Hezbollah (Hizbullah) and voice your concerns that their continued attacks on Israel are having a detrimentl effect on Lebanon?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM

affect, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:22 PM

Guest, Walt:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:34 PM

Gail Winston, Director of M.E.I.R., Mid East Information Resource

Major newspapers, New York Times, Chicago Tribune, 'et al' all blamed Israel for the seven deaths on the Gaza beach Friday June 9, 2006. (1 & 2) The Israeli Government anxiously took the blame without first investigating or even questioning the facts of the accusations. The Israeli Media jumped in quickly to 'catch a scoop', never questioning the accuracy of the Arab Palestinian claim.

This isn't the first time that Israel takes the blame first, then says they are investigating. By the time they complete their investigation and determine that Israel is NOT at fault, the audience has left the theater. It is too late.

Israel had stopped her retaliatory shelling before the shell on the beach exploded.

As always expected, the Media went into a feeding frenzy, merely on the claim of the Arab Palestinians but the clincher was the pathetic stupidity of the government apologizing. Most recently (June 5th), PM Olmert apologized to Egypt's King Mubarak for the IDF's killing of 2 Egyptian terrorists dressed in Egyptian army uniforms. (3)

Why must Israel always take the blame first? Is this a Jewish tradition or is this government of Jews merely inept? Because we apologize for every possible attack, we are now accused first before we can possibly investigate to learn the truth. This happened with the Mohammed al Dura story in 2000, the so-called "massacre in Jenin" and the killing of 21 people in the Jabaliya refugee camp September 2005. These stories are not over yet. They continue as a tradition today. Newspapermen say: "If it bleeds; it leads."

Some facts of the June 9th story:


1. A shell (or something) exploded on a beach in Gaza.
2. An IDF officer said that all IDF retaliatory shelling in the Gaza area had ceased well before the dramatic explosion on the beach.

3. This is an area from which the Arab Muslim Palestinians has been launching Kassem Rockets daily.

4. Seven Arab Muslim Palestinians were killed. One dramatic picture on the cover of the NYT, page 3 of the Chicago Trib, etc. showed a beautiful young girl screaming in agony over the death of her father lying next to her. This is the lasting image and the entire story to be told. By Monday the NYT headline is: "Errant Shell Turns Girl Into Palestinian Icon". (5)

One commentator wondered how the camera got there so fast or was the scene re-enacted? The truth in the Muhammed al-Dura death was revealed much later when an Italian videographer showed that the line of fire that caught the boy could have only come from the Palestinians not the Israelis.

5. The Arabs removed all evidence of shrapnel that could prove whose shell was to blame.

6. The Arabs removed all the wounded and dead with the shrapnel in them also removed to eliminate any evidence. They refused to have the bodies examined for forensic evidence of what actually killed the seven. Two are being treated in Israeli hospitals.

If this was an Israeli shell, wouldn't the Arabs have left the 'evidence' and gathered the Media to see it, instead of raking the sand to remove any tell-tale fragments?

7. The Arab Muslim Palestinians were known to have other explosives in this area but, refused to co-operate in any way with the Israeli investigators.

8. Hamas vows 'earthquake' after 7 were killed on the Gaza beach, ending a (supposed) 16 month truce, saying it would resume attacks following the explosions (which the Jerusalem Post, Ha'aretz, Yediot Aharonot, Ma'ariv and others all said the explosion was 'possibly' caused by IDF artillery fire). (4)

The Hebrew and Anglo Media jumped to the conclusion, as did the government, that it must have been an Israeli shell. Only later were there speculations offered by the Media that the explosion was likely caused by an errant Kassam Rocket.

9. Defense Minister Amir Peretz (in his ignorance) urged Palestinians not to retaliate (because he expected them to.)

The New York Times on June 12th ran an article about a surviving girl. Squeezed into the article was a reluctant statement about the area of the Gaza beach being used as a staging area for crude Kassem Rocket attacks against Israel. Using civilians as human shields and cover has always been the Arab Muslim M.O. (Modus Operandi). IF it was a Kassem Rocket exploding among the civilian cover picnicking on the beach, that would explain their refusal to allow inspection of the area and their sifting of the sand for any residual shrapnel. Also, their refusal to allow forensic examination of the bodies for the manufactured source of the shrapnel further indicates that it was a Palestinian-made Kassem Rocket.

As to be expected, the NYT is following the sympathy theme of the surviving girl and Mohameed Al-Dura making their case, not on the facts but by the outpouring of sympathy and a cover-up of who killed the victims. As they made Mohammed Al-Dura a poster child for their PR war in 2000, now they are using this girl as the "orphan" poster child.

Don't wait for an apology from the sensationalistic Media who slant their reports against Israel deliberately. It rarely come.

Another question to be asked: IF that area has become a launching spot for Rockets, assuring Israel's reprisals, why would either Fatah or Hamas not keep the area clear of civilians instead of inviting them to be there.

Are the civilian Muslim Palestinians supposed to be volunteers for martyrdom and also serve as human shields for the Kassem Rocket launching teams? (5)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Gissin: Don't blame Israel first"

by Herb Keinon JERUSALEM POST June 11,

Israelis are doing themselves a gross disservice, and playing into the hands of the Palestinians, by presuming that an Israeli shell caused the deaths of seven Palestinian civilians Friday in Gaza, Prime Minster Ehud Olmert's Foreign media advisor Ra'anan Gissin said Sunday.

"We are repeating the same mistakes of the past in taking responsibility when there are other possibilities about who is responsible," Gissin said.

He said that Friday's tragedy on the Gaza beach may indeed be similar to the shooting of Mohammed al-Dura in 2000, the "Jenin Massacre" in 2002, and the killing of 21 people at the Jabaliya refugee camp Sep. 2005. While the Palestinians originally pinned the blame for all these incidents on Israel, it has since been revealed that al-Dura may have been killed by Palestinians [according to an Italian TV video], that there was no "Jenin massacre," and that the deaths in Jabaliya were caused when Hamas activists "mishandled" explosives at a mass rally.

Gissin said that Israel should immediately have raised doubts after Friday's incident about the Palestinian version of events that placed the blame squarely on Israel.

"We jumped to conclusions before the evidence, and we immediately assumed that it was probably an Israeli shell," Gissin said. "But we don't know that for a fact. The Palestinians moved in and destroyed all the evidence. People should be asking themselves, 'why?' "

Just as Israel is conducting an investigation, Gissin said that the international community should also be demanding that the Palestinians conduct an investigation. But rather than doing that, he said, the Palestinians are removing evidence from the scene.

"We look at the area as a battle zone," Gissin said, "while the Palestinians view it as a crime scene, and are interested in making the evidence look like Israel carried out an atrocity," he said.

Gissin said that the evidence "didn't add up" in Jenin to equal a massacre because there were not enough bodies, and in Jabaliya there were too many witnesses to what happened to buy the Hamas line that the explosion in 2005 was the result of missiles fired by an IDF helicopter.

"But now we have a classic case where there is no real evidence, and all we have is a picture of a crying girl on the beach," Gissin said of Friday's incident in Gaza. "Nobody knows how the people there were killed. If it was an Israeli shell, why didn't the Palestinians invite the press to see the remnants of the shell, why have they been so quick to remove the evidence?"

Gissin bemoaned a situation where he said that instead of waiting for the investigation, the Israeli press jumped to the conclusion that it was an errant Israeli shell and reflexively began calling for an end to artillery fire on Gaza.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev, meanwhile, said that considering the circumstances, Israel weathered this particular storm in the foreign media "fairly well." Regev said that none of the serious international news outlets blamed Israel for intentionally targeting the civilians, and that most mentioned that Israel expressed regret and set up an investigation of the incident. Regev said that the Foreign Ministry and IDF coordinated Israel's reaction after the incident and that there were two main messages:

1. That Israel regretted the incident and expressed sorrow for it; that it deems the loss of innocent civilian life unacceptable; but that it was not taking responsibility because an investigation into exactly what happened was continuing.

2, That the violence in Gaza is a result of Palestinian extremists continuing to launch rockets on Israel even though Israel pulled out of Gaza 10 months ago and has neither a single settler nor soldier there.

Regev said that this message did not emphasize the possibility that the Palestinians may have been responsible for the blast, because no one at this point knows exactly what happened. Israel, he said, did stress that it was investigating the incident, and that it was premature to draw conclusions.

This article can also be read at

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150035829904&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFul





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


IN CLOSING FROM GAIL WINSTON:

Anyone who tries to tie the hands of the IDF while they are combating murderous Terrorism is responsible for the Terrorists' success at murdering civilians, both Jews and Muslims. What should we do? Bombard them with flowers? What is a reasonable response when they are shelling our civilians with missiles daily?

Because of all the sympathetic articles written by the NYT, and other Media, the Arab Muslim Palestinians will continue to lob shells and plant explosive charges to detonate in civilian areas, both theirs and ours. The Media will all be culpable for the rising number of civilians hurt and killed (both Jews and Muslims) by the Arabs when they see how effective their campaign is to damage their own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:58 PM

Hey Peace, no need to apologize--you were right the first time-- "effect" is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

beardedbruce - I did not say that Israel had a policy of intentionally targetted civilians. I do, however, reject the concept of 'collateral damage' when Palestinian children are killed by a single bullet from a sniper. It is the failure of Israel to investigate and prosecute those soldiers responsible for the indiscriminate killing of children that I object to.

Killing children is no way to gain allies. I supported Israel until I became aware of the plight of Palestinian children. Who in their right mind would support what Israel has done to them? As far as I'm concerned, Israel has given up its right to exist because of its inhumanity.

If you weren't so busy defending Israel's right to exist, you might take some time to look at the number of Palestinian children who have been killed by Israeli soldiers. The conditions of the children living in refugee camps is appalling. How can those who have lived through the holocaust (and their children), justify the terror of these children's lives?

Maybe it is the Jews who have forgotten.

Israel has no more right to exist than those Palestinian children.

btw - Carol and I are not the same person. We have never met. On occasion, we also disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

Many Israeli children have also died at the hands of suicide bombers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:21 PM

Yes, but the Israeli children were not intentionally targetted. The Palestinian children have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:22 PM

Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:30 PM

Israel seems to think that this campaign will degrade Hezbollah's ability to send rockets into Israel.   It may. Question is: will the hate engendered by the campaign more than outweigh any temporary advantage gained by this?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:43 PM

"The Palestinian children have been."

That statement is pretty extreme dianavan ... do you have proof of that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM

"Yes, but the Israeli children were not intentionally targetted. The Palestinian children have been."

A Palestinian suicide bomber gets on a bus filled with kids, and the Israeli kids weren't intentionally targeted? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA?



Yep to effect. Nope to affect. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:07 AM

Israel has drawn up a secret plan for a giant desalination plant to supply drinking water to the Palestinian territory on the West Bank. It hopes the project will diminish pressure for it to grant any future Palestinian state greater access to the region's scarce supplies of fresh water.

Under an agreement signed a decade ago as part of the Oslo accord, four-fifths of the West Bank's water is allocated to Israel, though the aquifers that supply it are largely replenished by water falling onto Palestinian territory.

The new plans call for seawater to be desalinated at Caesaria on the Mediterranean coast, and then pumped into the West Bank, where a network of pipes will deliver it to large towns and many of the 250 villages that currently rely on local springs and small wells for their water.

Israel, which wants the US to fund the project, would guarantee safe passage of the water across its territory in return for an agreement that Israel can continue to take the lion's share of the waters of the West Bank. These mainly comprise underground reserves such as the western aquifer, the region's largest, cleanest and most reliable water source.

For Israelis, agreement on the future joint management of this aquifer is a prerequisite for granting Palestine statehood.

Global funding
The first public hint of the plan emerged earlier in May in Washington DC. Uri Shamir, director of water research at the Technion, the Israel Institute of Technology in Haifa, told the House of Representatives Committee on International Relations that the desalination project was "the only viable long-term solution" for supplying drinking water to the West Bank.

Shamir told New Scientist this week that the project could be complete in five to seven years. "The plant will be funded by the world for the Palestinians. Israel will not be willing to carry this burden, and the Palestinians are not able to."

But other leading hydrologists contacted by New Scientist point out that desalinating seawater and pumping it to the West Bank, parts of which lie 1000 metres above sea level, would cost around $1 per cubic metre.

"The question is whether an average Palestinian family can afford it," says Arie Issar, a water expert at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Sede Boker, Israel, who helped green the Israeli desert a generation ago by finding new water sources in the region. "It would be foolish to desalinate water on the coast and push it up the mountains when there are underground water resources up there, which cost only a third as much."

Tony Allan of King's College London, a leading authority on Middle East water, agrees: "Pumping desalinated water to the West Bank is not the best technical or economic option."

But the project is being supported by Alvin Newman, head of water resources at the Tel Aviv office of USAID, the US international development agency, which would fund the desalination project. "Ultimately it's the only solution," he said in an interview with New Scientist.

Unusual cooperation
Water supply is one of the few areas where cooperation between Israel and Palestine has survived the current intifada. Every day on the West Bank, Palestinian engineers help repair and maintain Israeli water pipes, and vice versa.

But Palestinian water negotiators are deeply uneasy about the plans being drawn up on their behalf, especially if they involve abandoning claims to the water beneath their feet. "We cannot do that. We don't have the money or the expertise for desalination," Ihab Barghothi, head of water projects for the Palestinian Water Authority, told New Scientist.

Palestinians badly need more water. Under the Oslo agreement they have access to 57 cubic metres of water per person per year from all sources. Israel gets 246 cubic metres per head per year. And in the nearly 40 years that Israel has controlled the West Bank, Palestinians have been largely forbidden from drilling new wells or rehabilitating old ones.

The region's sources of water are the West Bank aquifers; the river Jordan, which rises in the Golan Heights and flows into the Sea of Galilee, where it is largely tapped by Israel; and the coastal aquifer, an increasingly polluted reserve of underground water that extends south to the Palestinian territory of the Gaza Strip.

Sewage effluent
Over the years, Israel has developed a good reputation for using water efficiently, and in the 1980s it began recycling sewage effluent for irrigation. In 2004, Israel signed a deal to buy water shipped by tanker from Turkey.

Meanwhile, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip depend almost exclusively on small wells tapping the coastal aquifer. As the water table falls, the aquifer is becoming increasingly polluted by salt water from the sea. UN scientists say Gaza will have no drinkable water within 15 years.

Despite earlier efforts to develop desalination, the Israel government only decided to invest heavily in the technology in the past four years. Some, including Israeli liberals and Palestinian optimists such as Barghothi, believed that once Israel began desalinating seawater for its own use it would be prepared to relax its grip on the West Bank aquifers.

But now it appears that Israeli water planners see desalination as a means of retaining control of those aquifers.

The desalination plant to supply the West Bank would parallel a similar US-funded reverse osmosis plant to fill taps on the hard-pressed Gaza Strip. The scheme has already been approved and funded, but is currently on hold because of continuing conflict in Gaza. Taken together, the two schemes would leave an independent Palestine more dependent on desalination than almost any other nation in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:49 AM

STATE MURDER OF CHILDREN
I believe that of course Israel has a policy of targetting the Palestinian children.

It is detaining hundreds illegally in Israeli jails.Mostly arrested and kidnapped from the illegally occupied West Bank.

2 Gaza is being bombed,shelled and shot up and its population is young.Children are dying in numbers there.

3 Gaza is also being starved and its children are malnourished...there is a humanitarian and health crisis there.

4 During the two intifadas when the Palestinian children took to the streets with rocks against tanks and snipers they were killed and wounded in large numbers.

4 They also had their arms and legs broken as a matter of deliberate state policy and were caught out when an israeli camera crew filmed a 10 minute brutal attack by soldiers on a teenage prisoner.

5 Remember the poor kid and his father sheltering behing a small wall and being subject a sustained burst of machine gun fire...captured on film...he died his father survived.

6 Or how about the 12 yer old girl shoy dead while she wandered too close to an Israeli army checkpoint...again captured on film and audio.The officer walked up to her as she lay dying and emptied his gun into her.
7 Take a look at yuor TV screens tonight to see how Lebanese kids are being incinerated and blown up in their homes and cars as a matter of state policy.

6 Zionism is a raw and racist ideology.Palestinian children are seen as enemies or potential enemies.It turns children into foes,it humiliates the parents,it demolishes their   houses as a matter of state policy.

7 Remember the massacres at Sabra and shatila....he victims were mainly women and children...who had been given US gurantees as to their safety.Worthless in the event.When the butchers went in to do the wet work with their knives the Israeli troops guarded the perimeter and fired up the flares so that the butchers could find their victims and finish them off.The The Israeli army of the invasion covered itself in gore that day

dan
ps
that business of the family slaughtered on the beach.if you believe the official israeli account you will believe anything.The murderers were quick to try to rewrite what happened so that their supporters could have some kind of story to present to the world.

Israel's leaders are war criminals and should be in the dock!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:54 AM

Now it's Dan?

WE WANT WALT!
WE WANT WALT!
WE WANT WALT!

I have to ask: Sybil, is that YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:55 AM

Israeli tanks have invaded the refugee camp of Mughazi in Gaza.Five people have bee killed and twenty wounded including five children.Palestinian Resistance fighters are fight replying with small arms fire.
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:59 AM

Certainly claims of massacres and atrocities should not go without investigation. The problem is that, like the case of Dir Yassin, even when the claim is shown to be unfounded, the legend persists. It is convenient for the enemies of Israel to portray her armed forces as ruthless savages, but that propagandistic position cannot be supported by any facts.

For example, Tantura. A Haifa University revisionist historian, Theodor Katz, claimed in his M.A. thesis (released January 2000) that an IDF unit had massacred over 200 Arab residents of the village of Tantura in the 1948 War of Independence. He was brought to court in 2001 by surviving officers and men of the unit who presented contrary evidence including review of Katz's tape recordings showing how he had manipulated the testimony of survivors. Katz admitted finally that he had selectively used reports from Arab sources, taking only those that supported his thesis. The lawsuit was dropped after Katz signed a renunciation of his own work and Haifa University pulled the thesis from library shelves. [It was revealed in September 2002 that tormer Palestinian Authority minister Feisal Husseini paid $8,000 for the legal defense of Teddy Katz.] The University conducted its own review of the evidence. After six months of work, the committee had managed to review only a little more than one-fourth of Katz's tapes, mostly in Arabic, which bore direct relation to the question of whether any massacre took place. Yet even in that limited selection, 14 major discrepancies - in which the tapes didn't accord with the written text - came to light.

No pro-Palestinian Arab source had ever pointed to a massacre at Tantura before Katz's thesis appeared in 2000. The thesis has been completely debunked. Nonetheless, there are now hundreds of web sites that cite the "Tantura massacre" as historical fact. And while Arab sources rushed into print to trumpet the news of Katz's thesis, none has mentioned the retraction save a few who cite it as an example of a massive coverup.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:01 AM

JOSH?

Send Walt instead. He tries to make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:04 AM

Well, if Sybil's posts are true, then there should be no one left in the entire Middle East. So, I guess the war is over.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:07 AM

GUEST,dan - 19 Jul 06 - 12:49 AM

Your Example Number 5 - STATE MURDER OF CHILDREN

"Remember the poor kid and his father sheltering behing a small wall and being subject a sustained burst of machine gun fire...captured on film...he died his father survived."

Guest dan, If this is the incident I think you are referring to, I believe that it has been proved fairly conclusively that "the poor kid" was killed by Palestinian Gunmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

You and CarolC have ignored my comments that the Israelis DO NOT TARGET civilians, and Hezbollah and Hamas DO.

You have a very short memory, beardebruce. Not only have I not ignored it, I disputed it. The Israelis most certainly do target civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:11 AM

If Israel WAS targeting civilians, I think they could do better than 183 dead in a week

Wait until the foreign nationals leave. Then watch the numbers climb exponentially.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:21 AM

Just imagine how many dead there would be if they decided to really 'target' civilians. The Israelis have about 100 Lockheed F-16I 'Fighting Falcon' aircraft. It has the ability to reach Iran, BTW. And the firepower it carries is unreal. No, I think they are targeting Hezbollah and Hamas. It's bad that the people who plot terrorist acts against Israel decide to live amongst the civilian populations of Lebanon and the Palestinians, and the people who fire rockets at Israel's civilian population do so from places that have many civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:21 AM

Many Israeli children have also died at the hands of suicide bombers.

119 Israeli children. More than 700 Palestinian children.

Whenever I see someone try to justify what is being done to the Palestinian children by mentioning the Israeli children, I find myself concluding that the person in question believs that the lives of Israeli children are many times more valuable than the lives of Palestinian children.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:23 AM

No Carol. Not more valuable. AS valuable.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:23 AM

Like I said... just wait until the foreign nationals leave. And then look for the numbers to rise exponentially.

Israel killed tens of thousands of Lebanese civilians during it's other invasions and occupations there.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:24 AM

Maybe that's what you believe, Peace. But it looks to me like there are plenty of people who don't share your view. Many of them right here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:25 AM

"Since the outbreak of the Intifada, several human rights organisations have thoroughly investigated the circumstances of thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths, reaching the conclusion that the Israeli army "kills civilians knowingly and deliberately".

One of these organisations is Physicians for Human Rights-USA, which investigated the number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the fist months of the Intifada.

A total of 266 children killed
were 14 or younger

It concluded that "the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing".

I found this here: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3994F6B-9576-4702-94E3-73EA1470182E.htm

Since the year 2000, more than 500 children have been killed and 20,000 have been injured.

Maybe you can find a source that tells me how many Israeli have died or have been wounded.

Now - Maybe you would like to compare the living conditions of Israeli children and Palestinian children or the rates of malnutrition and disease.

You may dispute my source but I doubt if you can discredit the Physicians for Human Rights-USA.

Sure - Have a go at it. I would also like to know how many Israeli soldiers have been tried for targetting children. From my understanding, anything over 14 years of age is fair game. I'd be satisfied if they investigated the murder of even one child under 14.

While you're looking for evidence to support Israel, I will continue to gather the facts regarding the targetting of children by Israeli soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:31 AM

"While you're looking for evidence to support Israel, I will continue to gather the facts regarding the targetting of children by Israeli soldiers."

You do that. Meanwhile answer this:

Israel continues to be hit by roocket attacks by Hezbollah. All Hezbollah has to do is withdraw from the border and stop firing rockets. The Israelis will stop attacking Lebanon. So, why doesn't Hezbollah withdraw?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:32 AM

Israel has drawn up a secret plan for a giant desalination plant to supply drinking water to the Palestinian territory on the West Bank. It hopes the project will diminish pressure for it to grant any future Palestinian state greater access to the region's scarce supplies of fresh water.

You make me laugh, Dave.

That desalinization plant is just another of the tools Israel will be using to deprive Palestinians of the basic necessities of life. Instead of letting them use their own water, which is free, and it's THEIRS, Israel is stealing that water, and it's going to manufacture fresh water in their plants and charge the Palestinians a lot of money for it.

The Palestinians' economy is being choked to death by the Israeli checkpoints, aparthied settlements, walls, and roads, and other forms of collective punishment. The Palestinians don't have extra money to spare to buy water from the Israelis because Israel is stealing THE PALESTINIANS' WATER

You support the continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:33 AM

Here's a good source. It lists the names of the children and the extent of the injuries by year.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html

I am waiting for a similar list of Israeli children killed by terrorists. If you can produce this evidence, I might be persuaded to believe that Israel has the moral high ground. I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:33 AM

And if Israel WAS targeting civilians of any age, the death toll would be one helluva lot higher than it is. Your numbers game doesn't impress me. A kid is a kid. The ball has been in Hezbollah's corner for days. They know what they have to do. So, why don't they do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:36 AM

"I might be persuaded to believe that Israel has the moral high ground. I'm not holding my breath."

I have never suggested that Israel has the moral high ground. They are your words and your implication, not mine. I think the war should stop this minute. I do know however that it will NOT unless Hezbollah withdraws and stops firing rockets into Israel. That is neither moral nor immoral, it is fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:36 AM

So, why doesn't Hezbollah withdraw?

Why is this so difficult for people (people with a conscience) to understand?

They want their women and children to be returned to them!

If Israel can cause the kind of death and destruction they are causing just to get ONE frigging soldier back, why can't people understand why people in Lebanon would want to get their wives and children back?

Really... the inability of so many people to understand this just astonishes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:40 AM

"884 people have been murdered and 5932 have been injured in Israel as a result of Palestinian violence and terror attacks between September 2000 and October 2003, according to the Israel Defense Forces. Below are the most significant of these attacks."

I have no idea how many were children.

from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:40 AM

The Israelis are workinf on supplying themselves with water, why supply people that shoot missiles at them? The fact is no Arab state and no UN money has been spent to alleviate this mess. Where is all the Arab Brothers money going? more missiles, where should it go?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:41 AM

Dianavan, see this site. It's owned and operated by Jewish Israelis. It's a good site. In particular, see their statistics page...

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:45 AM

The Israelis are workinf on supplying themselves with water, why supply people that shoot missiles at them?

Why indeed!

Nobody's asking them to supply the Palestinians with water. They are asking them to stop stealing the Palestinians' water.

If you can't see the difference between these two things, you are either being willfully blind, or you are stunned as my arse.

And since you've gone down that line of reasoning, why the hell should the Palestinians be expected to supply water to people who are shooting at them (the Israelis)?

You support the continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians by the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:49 AM

As I said in a previous post, 119 Israeli children have been killed, and more than 700 Palestinian children have been killed since the start of the second intifada.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:50 AM

From the site Carol linked to:

"13 June, 06: Qassam rocket-fire at the civilian population

Over the past weeks, Palestinian groups in the Gaza Strip have intensified the Qassam rocket-fire at Israeli population centers.

The Palestinian organizations responsible for the rocket-fire state openly that one of their aims is to kill Israeli civilians. Deliberate attacks on civilians are both immoral and illegal. The willful killing of civilians is classified as a grave breach in the Fourth Geneva Convention and as a war crime that is unjustifiable under any circumstances. Furthermore, Qassam rockets are themselves illegal, even when aimed at military objects, because the rockets are so imprecise, and thus endanger civilians situated in the area in which the rockets are fired or where they land. Therefore, the persons involved in firing the rockets violate the requirements of distinction and proportionality, which are fundamental principles of international humanitarian law.

To aggravate matters, many of the rockets are fired from, or near, areas in which civilians live. International humanitarian law prohibits attacks from inside or near the homes of civilians, and from using civilians as human shields. IHL's objective is to reduce to a minimum injury to civilians during an anticipated military response by the other side. The Palestinian organizations that carry out the attacks against Israel from within or near a populated area breach this rule; in doing so, the organizations show their indifference to the loss of Israeli and Palestinian lives."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:51 AM

While Jewish refugees from Arab countries received no international assistance, Palestinians received millions of dollars through UNRWA. Initially, the United States contributed $25 million and Israel nearly $3 million. The total Arab pledges amounted to approximately $600,000. For the first 20 years, the United States provided more than two-thirds of the funds, while the Arab states continued to contribute a tiny fraction. Israel donated more funds to UNRWA than most Arab states. The Saudis did not match Israel's contribution until 1973; Kuwait and Libya, not until 1980. As recently as 1994, Israel gave more to UNRWA than all Arab countries except Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Morocco.

In 2003, the United States pledging more than $134 million of UNRWA's $326 million budget (41%). Meanwhile, despite their rhetorical support for the Palestinians, all of the Arab countries combined pledged less than $11 million (3%) and $7.8 million of that was from Saudi Arabia, meaning the rest of the Arab world contributed less than $3 million (1%).57

After transferring responsibility for virtually the entire Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority, Israel no longer controlled any refugee camps and ceased contributing to UNRWA. Meanwhile, in addition to receiving annual funding from UNRWA for the refugees, the PA has received billions of dollars in international aid and yet has failed to build a single house to allow even one family to move out of a refugee camp into permanent housing. Given the amount of aid (approximately $5.5 billion since 1993) the PA has received, it is shocking and outrageous that more than half a million Palestinians are being forced by their own leaders to remain in squalid camps.

MYTH

"The Arab states have always welcomed the Palestinians and done their best to resettle them."

FACT

Jordan was the only Arab country to welcome the Palestinians and grant them citizenship (to this day Jordan is the only Arab country where Palestinians as a group can become citizens). King Abdullah considered the Palestinian Arabs and Jordanians one people. By 1950, he annexed the West Bank and forbade the use of the term Palestine in official documents.58

Although demographic figures indicated ample room for settlement existed in Syria, Damascus refused to consider accepting any refugees, except those who might refuse repatriation. Syria also declined to resettle 85,000 refugees in 1952-54, though it had been offered international funds to pay for the project. Iraq was also expected to accept a large number of refugees, but proved unwilling. Lebanon insisted it had no room for the Palestinians. In 1950, the UN tried to resettle 150,000 refugees from Gaza in Libya, but was rebuffed by Egypt.

After the 1948 war, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and its more than 200,000 inhabitants, but refused to allow the Palestinians into Egypt or permit them to move elsewhere. Egypt's handling of Palestinians in Gaza was so bad Saudi Arabian radio compared Nasser's regime in Gaza to Hitler's rule in occupied Europe in World War II.59

In 1952, the UNWRA set up a fund of $200 million to provide homes and jobs for the refugees, but it went untouched.



"The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."
— former director of UNRWA in Jordan Ralph Galloway, in August 195860




Little has changed in succeeding years. Arab governments have frequently offered jobs, housing, land and other benefits to Arabs and non-Arabs, excluding Palestinians. For example, Saudi Arabia chose not to use unemployed Palestinian refugees to alleviate its labor shortage in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Instead, thousands of South Koreans and other Asians were recruited to fill jobs.

The situation grew even worse in the wake of the Gulf War. Kuwait, which employed large numbers of Palestinians but denied them citizenship, expelled more than 300,000 of them. "If people pose a security threat, as a sovereign country we have the right to exclude anyone we don't want," said Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasir Al-Sabah (Jerusalem Report, June 27, 1991).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Josh
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:52 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:57 AM

Unlike CarolC I do not tell people what to think or how to think just provide evidence that she has not refuted or found untrue.
She continues in showing her racism and anti semetism and has the audacity to call me one. I have been there seen it and tried to help, what have you ever done to help the Palestinians CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:59 AM

Peace, yes, that is happening. But did you happen to notice the numbers of Palestinian civilians killed as compared to Israeli civilians. Hundreds of Israelis, and thousands of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:03 AM

Anti-Semitism, Dave?

You must be desperate. You're really scraping there.

Do you condemn Israel's practice of ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by depriving them of the basic necessities of life?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,josh
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:05 AM

Its hard to believe,understand or comprehend but those Palestinians who have had their homes stolen,their land grabbed and their cities and towns expropriated would ike them back.The attacks on them go back many decades since well before the foundation of the state of Israel.Israel was founded on a huge crime....the stolen land of the Palestinian people.
They have been bullied,murdered,blown up and exiled with impunity.
Carolc made the point above that their water has been stolen. Their children have been brutalised.Their freedom of movement has been curtailed .The apartheid wall is surrounding them.

They dont like it.They dont want to go to Saudi Arabia.They do want to go home to Jerusalem ,Acre and Haifa.Next year Jerusalem is a Jewish saying ,it also fits the Palestinians.
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM

And why should they be expected to leave anyway (and move to "Arab" countries? ...Palestinians, by the way, are not, strictly speaking, "Arabs".)

Palestine is their home

Ethnic cleansing is a racist practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,josh
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:17 AM

let those zionist settlers with their big guns go home to New york...the new york police would not putup with their criminality for long...and let the palestinians return to their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

Carol, I know the numbers. I am not a fan of any civilians being killed in wars. It happens, but I DO NOT like it, regardless whether the civilians are killed by Israelis, Americans, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc. Right now about a half million Lebanese have become refugees. That is inexcusable. It is also inexcusable that Hezbollah refuses to withdraw, and also refuses to return the Israeli soldier and refuses to stop firing rockets into Israel.

Lebanon has ignored the crisis that was building and it has done so since the UN Resolution two years back. They have refused to search out and stop the terrorist faction in Lebanon. I am very saddened by the deaths of so many people, and I have said so to the Israeli government. I am now composing an e-mail to my own government requesting that they get off their arses and work hard for a cease fire. If I knew how to write the Lebanese government, I would make a similar request of them. (Hezbollah can go eff themselves. They deserve no decency because they have none.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM

One thing I want to make clear. I don't think Israel has a policy of targetting children but I do think Israeli soldiers target children. As Carol said, 119 Israeli children have died and more than 700 Palestinian children. If you were Palestinian what would you do? I know that if they killed my children, I'd strap on a bomb in a heartbeat.

I suggest you look at the sites regarding how these Palestinian children died. It wasn't shrapnel, it wasn't bombs. It was usually a single, well aimed bullet. Do you dispute the findings of the Physicians for Human Rights? That means the Palestinian kids were murdered and the Israeli government condones it by not investigating.

You keep asking why Hezbollah does not withdraw from the borders but do you realize that the Lebanese government does not control Hezbollah? Thats the problem. The Lebanese people are being punished for the actions of Hezbollah. The Israelis have no business waging war on a country for the crimes of a few. It is not the Lebanese government launching the rockets! How dare Israel wage war on a country that has not attacked them?

Its the same problem the U.S. has. You don't wage war on a country so that you can capture a few criminals. Too many innocent people die. ...and you don't put people in camps and cut off their supply of food and medicine. How can Jews treat people that way? Shame!

I once supported Israel. Never again!

Like Carol C. said, wait until the foreigners are evacuated. Israel is going to blow Lebanon off the map and that includes innocent civilians and their children. I hope the whole world condemns Israel for their atrocities and their ethnic cleansing. I also hope it is Jews who will call a halt to Israel's overkill. Afterall, its their government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM

"It is not the Lebanese government launching the rockets! How dare Israel wage war on a country that has not attacked them?"

Answer me this, if you will. Do you think Israel should sit back and allow Hezbollah to launch rockets at civilians in Israel just because the Lebanese government cannot or will not control the guests in its country?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM

While the deep roots may help us understand the mutual fear and loathing between on the one hand Israel and the Lebanon and on the other hand Israel and Gaza, it still does not to my mind justify the disparity between the specific attacks by relatively independent movements against Israeli soldiers on the one hand and the responses by the Israeli state against the civilians and infrastructure of Gaza and the Lebanon.   

The particular attacks, resulting in the kidnap of soldiers, were not themselves "terrorist attacks". They were not themselves attacks on civilians.   The Israeli response has been very substantially against civilian persons, and almost wholly against civilian infrastructure. These particular actions and responses seem to my mind different in kind from the widespread tit-for-tat-ism of the region.

Imagine that the IRA had shot a British soldier. Would that have justified England blasting the Irish republic back into the stone age?

Imagine that the USA had been funding the IRA. Would that have justified England nuking the pentagon?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:15 AM

If Israel had wanted to destry the infrastructure of Lebanon, it would have done so by now, I think. There woould be no electricity in Lebanon. No government buildings. No nothing. The fact is (as was stated earlier in this thread) that Hezbollah is using civilian areas to fire the rockets from. I can't recall who said it, but an American outlaw when asked why he robbed banks replied, "Because that's where the money is."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:17 AM

Lebanon has ignored the crisis that was building and it has done so since the UN Resolution two years back. They have refused to search out and stop the terrorist faction in Lebanon.

They are not in a position to do that, and they never have been.

Ironically, it was Israel's covert manipulation of the different ethnicities in Lebanon that caused the civil war there, and that, along with Israel's invasion and occupation of Lebanon is the reason the Lebanese government is unable to do what the UN resolution called for two years back. If the government of Lebanon tried to comply with that resolution, it would cause the dissolution of Lebanon into another bloody civil war.

And since you are emphatic about UN resolutions being followed, do you also call for Israel to comply with all UN resolutions that apply to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:24 AM

Only if Israel is in a position to comply with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:33 AM

I have to say that I'm puzzled by all of this. First, Israel leaves Gaza, which I would think would make the Palestinians very happy - but apparently they responded by increasing attacks on Israel.
Now, Israel is attacking Lebanon, which seemed to have settled down in recent years, after years of fighting had ruined a beautiful country.
So, we started with the hopeful action, and now we have a situation that's far worse than before Israel left Gaza.
When does all this insanity end?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:11 AM

I have to say that I'm puzzled by all of this. First, Israel leaves Gaza, which I would think would make the Palestinians very happy - but apparently they responded by increasing attacks on Israel.

People need to try reading the thread. This one has been addressed probably dozens of times.

Israel did remove the settlers. But it did NOT stop dropping bombs on the civilians of Gaza, and it DID continue to kill large numbers of them. And it did NOT stop it's stranglehold on Gaza's borders with the outside world, and also Gaza's air space and shore.

The Gazans were very happy about the settlers leaving, but they weren't particularly fond of having their children blown to smithereens by Israeli bombs, or their economy being destroyed by Israel's stranglehold on their borders and air space. Even Palestinians need to eat, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:12 AM

Only if Israel is in a position to comply with it.

Does this mean that you also hold Lebanon responsible for complying only if they are in a position to do so?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:33 AM

what have you ever done to help the Palestinians CarolC

I'm trying to help people see the Palestinians as human beings, Dave. I know it's not much, but right now, it's the best I can do. I hope I will be able to make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:38 AM

dianavan,

"I supported Israel until I became aware of the plight of Palestinian children. Who in their right mind would support what Israel has done to them? As far as I'm concerned, Israel has given up its right to exist because of its inhumanity."

So, you now can hear about the deliberate targeting of Israeli children by Hamas and other Palestinian suicide bombers- AND tell me how PALESTINE has "given up its right to exist because of its inhumanity."

Or are you so bigotted that you cannot admit that the side YOU support is far more guilty, in an organized, purposeful targeting of innocents?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:40 AM

dianavan,

"Yes, but the Israeli children were not intentionally targetted. The Palestinian children have been."


Obviously, bar mitzvahs and ice cream parlors are primary military tagets, to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:12 AM

Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Irwin, writing from Israel
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:48 AM

To CarolC, Dianavan and other assorted Israel-haters:

I understand that you are upset by us, here in Israel.

Indeed, reading Mudcat, it seems that you are always quite upset by us. One day, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians, the next day is Lebanon. I'm sure if Mudcat had existed then you would have been upset about the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.

Of course, long before there was an Israel, we - the Jewish People - upset people like you.

We upset a German people who elected Hitler and upset an Austrian people
who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations: Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians and Romanians. We go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us.

In 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us.

For centuries, we upset a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through inquisitions, and we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.

Now CarolC repeats her lies, over and over again, endlessly in thread after thread on Mudcat, on how everything is the fault of the occupation how everything would be so utopian if we only returned to the 1967 borders.

Well, CarolC, in 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede
peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.

CarolC, why did the Palestinians massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967?

And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936 and 1939? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967?

The UN Partition Plan in 1947 would have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel. But the Arabs cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews. Was that "upset" caused by the aggression of 1967?

The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who when they had all the territories they now demand be given to them for their state, attempted to drive the Jewish state into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "itbach-al- yahud" (Massacre the Jew!) that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream to destroy Israel.

What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today, but we should not
"repress" them. CarolC, people like you and Dianavan and ifor and that ilk stood by during the Holocaust, and again in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. People like you stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.

And since we know that the Palestinians who chose Hamas as their government, and the Lebanese who cede control of their country to Hezbollah, dream daily of that
Extinction. We will do everything we have to do to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, CarolC, well here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

---

This site (click) attributes the substance of the letter above to Rabbi Meir Kahane (1988) - it was originally addressed to "Dear World," not CarolC; and it has been posted on the Internet many times (Google finds 86), attributed to a number of people. It doesn't violate our one-page limit on non-music copy-pastes - but nonetheless, copy-paste information is supposed to be properly attributed.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:04 AM

According to a poll in the Australian Jewish News, 63% of Australian Jews responding think Israel should negotiate with the Palestinians and Hezbollah to help free the Israeli soldiers.

They would seem to be a lot more reasonable than irwin in his last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:26 AM

According to polls? Most people who are asked to comment on a situation will answer directly "I prefer negotiation to military action" they are after all very reasonable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:51 AM

according to trolls, oops according to polls, most people believe they are very reasonable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM

Carol C. has written, either directly or obliquely, several times on this thread that Israelis and/or the pro-Israeli posters believe that Israeli lives are more valuable than Palestinean lives. I believe I was so accused several days ago. Well, I have reviewed most of the comments, here, and I see no such comments.

However, there is one group that does believe Israeli lives are more valuable than those of Palestineans...Palestineans. Based on the hostage/prisoner exchange Hamas & Hizbullah propose, each Israeli is worth about 500 Palestineans.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

speaking of children... (from late 2002)


"From the outset of the current Palestinian intifada two years ago, children and teenagers have assumed an integral role. Regrettably, this role is not adequately addressed in the recent Amnesty International report entitled "Killing the Future Children in the Line of Fire."

Knowing that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, and face disciplinary procedures or court martial for breaches, Palestinian snipers hide among youngsters or use them as human shields. Three recent developments are also notable:

Yasser Arafat's deputy, Abu Mazen, admitted to a Kuwaiti newspaper in June that Palestinian children have been paid 5 shekels (about $1) for every pipe bomb they throw.

Children have been increasingly mobilized during 2002 for homicide attacks; their parents have received cash payments from the Palestinian Authority, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

The attempt at a cover-up: The Palestinian Journalists' Association has warned members that they would be punished if they photographed armed children.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sacrificing Children
On March 30, 2002, a 16-year-old Palestinian girl named Ayat Akhras walked into a Jerusalem supermarket and detonated a bomb concealed under her clothing, killing two Israelis and wounding 22 others. On April 23, three teenagers - Anwar Hamduna, Yusef Zakut, and Abu Nada - from Gaza, attempted to crawl under the perimeter fence and attack the residents of the nearby Jewish community of Netzarim, only to be shot dead by guards. For over a month, Palestinian children as young as ten barricaded themselves in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, alongside Palestinian gunmen. In May, a 16-year-old Palestinian boy was arrested in a taxi near Jenin with a suicide bomb on his body. On June 13, 2002, a 15-year-old Palestinian girl, arrested for throwing a firebomb at IDF soldiers, admitted during interrogation that she had previously been recruited as a suicide terrorist. On July 9, 2002, Israeli security forces arrested another 15-year-old Palestinian girl who admitted to having agreed to carry out a suicide1 attack in Israel. These are some of the latest developments in the intifada, an unprecedented wave of ongoing attacks that has roiled the region for two years. From the outset, Palestinian children and teenagers have assumed an integral role.

Although some elements in Palestinian society oppose using children, or at least their children, in "martyrdom" operations, these voices remain isolated. Just as in previous violent episodes, many Palestinians misuse their children in various ways. Early in the current intifada, children acted as decoys, burning tires and shooting slingshots to attract the television cameras while making it harder for the world to identify the gunmen lying in ambush. Knowing that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, Palestinian snipers hide among groups of youngsters, on rooftops or in alleys, often using kids as shields when aiming at exposed IDF soldiers. On some occasions, these gunmen apparently have inadvertently shot Palestinian children from behind. Recently, Abu Mazen, a senior Arafat aide who is the Secretary General of the PLO executive, criticized the tactics of terrorist organizations in Gaza. Abu Mazen told a Kuwaiti newspaper interviewer, "I am against little children going out to die. It is a terrible thing. At least 40 children in Rafah [in the Gaza Strip] lost their arm from the throwing of Bangalore torpedoes [a form of pipe bomb]. They received 5 shekels [approximately $1] in order to throw them."2 Also, IDF soldiers who participated in the Defensive Shield operation reported that children were sometimes left behind to trigger booby-traps that terrorists set for troops.

But why are these young people willing to throw away their lives? Who led them to believe that assuming dangerous roles in the violence will result in improving their personal, family, and political situation? How did the celebration of violence against Israelis become so deeply ingrained in Palestinian culture? What cause, no matter how deeply held, can motivate a society to sacrifice its children, its future?



A Family's Badge of Pride
The pressure to sacrifice oneself in the intifada often originates at home. Stoked by Arafat's speeches lauding the role of children in the struggle and the importance of martyrdom, many Palestinian parents have come to view the role of youth in the uprising as useful and, indeed, honorable. Thus, after Ahmat Omar Abu Selmia, a 15-year-old, was killed on his way to attack the Israeli community of Dugit, his father celebrated his "martyrdom" at a street festival attended by about 200 men. Martyrs - people who die for the sake of jihad (holy war) and Islam - are held in such high regard by the Palestinian people that at times parents accept the death of their children as a badge of pride. Parents of toddlers proudly recount their little children saying they want to become martyrs, and a father of a 13-year-old said, "I pray that God will choose him" to be a martyr. One mother told a journalist from the (London) Times, "I am happy that he [her 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my sons and daughters (12 in all) to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem." A photograph in the Jerusalem Post on February 26, 2002, showed Palestinian fathers teaching a group of toddlers and young children to properly hold assault rifles while trampling on American and Israeli flags.

Another reason Palestinian parents allow and even encourage their children to get involved is the financial incentive offered to families of "martyrs." Thus, the Palestinian Authority furnishes a cash payment - $2,000 per child killed and $300 per child wounded.3 Saudi Arabia announced that it had pledged $250 million as its first contribution to a billion-dollar fund aimed at supporting the families of Palestinian martyrs. In addition, the Arab Liberation Front, a Palestinian group loyal to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, pays generous bounties to the injured and the families of the dead according to the following sliding scale: $500 for a wound; $1,000 for disability; $10,000 to the family of each martyr; and $25,000 to the family of every martyr suicide bomber - lavish sums, given the chronic unemployment and poverty of the majority of the Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.



A Society that Sanctifies Death
Violent death is sanctified throughout the Palestinian areas. The streets are plastered with posters glorifying the exploits of individual suicide bombers. Children trade martyr cards, purchased at their local shops, instead of pokemon or baseball cards, and necklaces with pictures of martyrs are also very popular.4 One favorite wall slogan reads: "Beware of death by natural causes."5 Suicide bombing is considered a source of neighborhood pride, as streets are named after the perpetrators of these atrocities. There is even a band named "The Martyrs," whose lyrics espouse the virtues of "sacrificing yourself for Allah." Under these cultural influences, many children readily admit that they want to become suicide bombers. Some draw pictures and fantasize about the day when they achieve their goal. The young are taught that, as suicide bombers, they will ascend to a paradise of luxury staffed by 72 virgins waiting to gratify the martyrs as they arrive. An American psychiatrist with 22 years of experience studying and treating suicidal patients stresses that suicide bombers - both children and adults - are "tools used by terrorist leaders" with "a whole culture encouraging [them] to die."6

The Palestinian Authority - the Palestinian entity established, empowered, funded, and armed to carry out the Oslo peace process - uses diverse vehicles to incite the youth to participate in anti-Israeli street violence and even outright terrorism. Incitement in Palestinian society is both authoritative and omnipresent. Palestinian columnist Ashraf Al-Arjami agrees that the patriotism of Palestinian youth is being exploited, and the schools and mosques under Palestinian control are influencing the children. The campaign to incite children emanates straight from the top of the Palestinian Authority. Documents signed with the emblem of the Palestinian Authority and Yasser Arafat's office feature inciting words referring to Israelis as "land plunderers" and "creators of international terror." Arafat himself refers to the children as "the generals of the stones," playing to their pride and young egos.

In a Palestinian Authority-run summer camp, a New York Times reporter observed campers staging the kidnapping of Israeli leaders, stripping and assembling Kalashnikov assault rifles, and learning techniques for ambushes.7 One Palestinian Authority television program clip, aimed at young viewers, features a boy killed in Gaza arriving in heaven where there are beaches, waterfalls, and a Ferris wheel. He is saying, "I am not waving goodbye, I am waving to tell you to follow in my footsteps." On the accompanying soundtrack a song plays, "How pleasant is the smell of martyrs, how pleasant the smell of land, the land enriched by the blood, the blood pouring out of a fresh body." In an October 2001 interview in a Palestinian Authority-controlled newspaper, Youssef Jamah, the Palestinian Minister of Holy Sites, stated on Egyptian television, "The suicide bombings are a legitimate means through which the Palestinians fight the enemy....The attacks are the command of Allah." Although some Islamic authorities oppose suicide bombing, Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, the Palestinian Authority-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, said, "There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr - the greater and the more I respect him." Not surprisingly, senior Palestinian Authority officials attend the funerals of the "martyrs."



Educating the "Martyrs of Tomorrow"
Even in the Palestinian Authority's public schools, incitement to violence plays a major role. Needless to say, interest in reconciliation with Israel is notably absent. The Palestinian Authority's Deputy Minister of Education, Naim Abu Humus, called on school administrators to dedicate the first class to praying for the souls of those killed during the intifada, saying, "Today we glorify Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and remember the Palestinian martyrs." Signs on the walls of kindergartens proclaim their students as "the shaheeds [martyrs] of tomorrow," and elementary school teachers and principals commend their young students for wanting to "tear their [Zionists'] bodies into little pieces and cause them more pain than they will ever know." Posters in university classrooms proudly remind the world that the Palestinian cause is armed with "human bombs." Sheik Hassan Yosef, a leading Hamas member, summarized this process of incitement by saying, "we like to grow them from kindergarten through college." Palestinian Brig. Gen. Mahmoud M. Abu Marzoug reminded a group of 10th grade girls in Gaza City that "as a martyr, you will be alive in Heaven." After the address, a group of these girls lined up to assure a Washington Post reporter that they would be happy to carry out suicide bombings or other actions ending in their deaths.8

These factors cumulatively explain why young Palestinians are so excited at the prospect of "martyrdom." "When I become a martyr, give out Kannafa [sweet cake]," one 14-year-old boy was reported to have told his friends in the days prior to his death in the riots. A 12-year-old boy who died in the fighting was reported to have so yearned for martyrdom that he wrote his own death announcements on the walls of his home. An injured 13-year-old boy was reported as having said, "My goal is not to be injured, but rather something higher - martyrdom." A 13-year-old girl from Egypt tried to sneak into Gaza in order to "join the Palestinian children in anything, even throwing stones." A week earlier, a 12-year-old boy was stopped at the Israeli border after attempting the same thing.

But why does the Palestinian Authority encourage Palestinian children to become involved in this violence? Clearly, sympathy for the Palestinian cause has been generated as Western media reports have often highlighted instances in which Palestinian children have been killed or injured by Israeli troops or policemen. These knee-jerk reports have generated criticism of Israeli policies, but few in the Western world have thought through the chaos they see on the television news to consider whose interests are served by the casualties.



Shoved into the Front Lines
There seems to be no end to the list of Palestinian children killed after being shoved into the front lines of the conflict by the Palestinian leadership. In February 2002, Nora Shalhoob, a 16-year-old Palestinian girl, was killed while charging a group of Israeli soldiers at a military checkpoint with a knife in her hand. Andaleeb Taqataqah was only 17 when she was recruited by a terror squad and sent to her death in a suicide attack on a crowded Jerusalem market on April 12, 2002. As a result of the increasing frequency of such attacks, two points have become clear. The first is that Palestinian children and teenagers are lining up to throw their lives away, and the second is that there is an across-the-board effort by Palestinian leaders, parents, clerics, and educators to turn youthful energy into deadly violence.

Contrary to the above-mentioned Amnesty International's report, that apparently seeks to equate the killings of Palestinian and Israeli children, numerous dissimilarities cry out for attention. To mention just a few:


Israeli parents are not paid rewards by their government or foreign governments when their children are wounded or killed.
IDF soldiers do not use Israeli children as human shields when they initiate a firefight with Palestinian gunmen.
There is no doctrine in Jewish law akin to that guaranteeing Muslim shaheeds that, after death, bountiful rewards await them in paradise.
Israeli schools and synagogues never brainwash children to undertake life-threatening violence against Palestinian civilians.
The government of Israel does not have thousands of armed terrorists on its payroll.
Israeli parents have never been quoted in the media urging their children to sacrifice their lives for a political or religious cause. Nor do they send their children to the front to riot before the television cameras.
Israeli summer camps do not indoctrinate children to kill or instruct them on how to ambush or use firearms.
Israeli television children's programming never features teachers smiling and clapping hands as their pupils sing of their intent to become martyrs.
Israeli children do not collect or exchange martyr cards, or listen to music by a group called "The Martyrs."
Senior Israeli political and religious figures do not laud, or pander to, children who engage in violence.
And most importantly, Israeli soldiers do not intentionally target Palestinian children (or others not involved in the violence), on buses, in restaurants, discos, etc.

Recently, six children armed with M-16 and Kalashnikov rifles took part in a pro-Iraqi rally in the Gaza Strip. Exposed to such shocking images, including those of Palestinian toddlers wearing mock suicide bomber's vests, Western public opinion began to shift. Revulsion increasingly replaced curiosity. But rather than fulfill its professional obligation to publicize newsworthy and controversial issues, in August 2002 the Palestinian Journalists' Association warned its members that it would punish any journalist or photographer who took photographs of armed or masked Palestinian children. This intimidating message, which was faxed to journalists and news agencies, stated that Palestinian journalists employed by foreign news agencies are even responsible for making sure their colleagues act according to the warning. The association further added that it would not defend any journalists that do not implement the new policy, should the Palestinian Authority decide to punish them.9

Blatant child abuse of this kind, and efforts to cover it up, would not be tolerated anywhere else in the civilized world. Where are the children's welfare advocates to condemn the practices that poison the minds and imperil the bodies of young Palestinians? "

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

"We will do everything we have to to remain alive in our own land"say Irwin from Israel

The terrible events in Israel/Palestine is that the land which the Zionists claim as theirs was stolen by force of arms from the Palestinians.

To get that land they had to massacre, terrorise and expel many of the Palestinians who are now scattered across the West Bank,the Middle East and much of the rest of the world.

The Palestinians who remained in Israel are now treated as second class citizens and the Zionists wish they too would piss off.

The West Bank is not Israel.It is an illegally occupied territory .To hold it the Zionists have settled paramilitary thugs there ,armed to the teeth, who bully,shoot and beat up the indiginous Palestinians.Moreover,they contimue to steal land ,water,and bulldoze the houses of Palestinians.

Irwin ,a great and terrible wrong was done to the Jewish people in Europe in the war with 6 million murdered.The Palestinians were innocent of that crime.But they continue to be mistreated in a most brutal and savage way by the Israeli state which is under the control of extreme zionists.

By the way the record of Zionists in the war is is a very dubious one and would need a thread for itself on Mudcat.

It is also true that there are many anti Zionist Jews who are appalled at the suffering and brutality being inflicted on the Palestinians .Many of these Jews are in Israel and many more live across the world and are actively opposing the Zionist bombers and thugs.

In Canada this week hundreds of muslims,Jews and secularists protested at the attack on Lebanon.Good!It shows that people from a variety of backgrounds can work together for peace and social justice.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

... from 2000...

"Executive Summary
Watching the television coverage of the daily Palestinian riots, known as the Al-Aqsa intifada,1 one is immediately struck by the near total absence of adults. Indeed, most of those hurling Molotov cocktails and stones are teenagers; many are even younger. Intoxicated by the challenge of becoming a hero, lacking the maturity to calculate the dangers they are assuming, these young people are easily motivated to place themselves in harm's way.

Since the recent disturbances began, media reports have often highlighted instances in which Palestinian children have been killed or injured by Israeli troops or policemen. These reports have generated much criticism of Israeli policies, although few in the Western world have thought through the chaos they see on the news to consider whose interests are served by the violence. Even fewer have access to the information necessary to place in legal and historical context these weeks of death and disorder.

The appearance of Palestinian children in these riots, it will be demonstrated, is not accidental. The Palestinian Authority has intentionally mobilized Palestinian children to man the front line in its struggle against Israel, frequently using them as shields to protect Palestinian gunmen. This mobilization of Palestinian youth has, moreover, been facilitated by the long-term impact of Palestinian Authority (PA) curricula, government-controlled media, and summer camp programs, which indoctrinated the youth for armed confrontation with Israel even prior to the current crisis.

The utilization of children in armed conflicts has been increasingly condemned by the international community. It is barred by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and recent UN Security Council Resolution 1261, which specifically described the use of children as soldiers as a "violation of international law."

Moreover, the Palestinian leadership, in a classic case of bad faith, accuses Israel of committing human rights violations for the fatalities while evading its own responsibility for the orchestrated appearance of children at the front lines of the conflict. This constitutes a cynical exploitation of human rights concerns. While the Palestinian Authority is not formally bound by international human rights conventions, it nonetheless is required by the Oslo agreements, which PA Chairman Yasser Arafat signed, to honor "internationally accepted norms of human rights and the rule of law."2

This study examines the causes of this phenomenon and its repercussions. In particular, it offers suggestions to protect Palestinian children from the physical and other dangers inherent in politically and religiously motivated street violence.



Creating Martyrs for the Media
The visuals of a bleeding Palestinian child surrounded by screaming relatives all but obviate the need for most people to consider why and how the child was in harm's way in the first instance. The tragic death of Mohammed Al-Dura, the twelve-year-old from Gaza who was caught in the cross-fire and shot dead in his father's arms,3 mobilized sentiment around the world to condemn Israel for using excessive force.4 Claims were made that the besieged Israel Defense Forces (IDF) position from which the shooting likely came had intentionally targeted the boy and his father, even though the soldiers were returning fire at Palestinian gunmen a few meters away from Mohammed and his father.

Whatever the circumstances of Mohammed's death, it is clear that a number of Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli gunfire and many more injured. Estimates of these child casualties, however, have varied. CBS News' "Sixty Minutes" reported on October 24 that 40 Palestinian children had been killed; 5 an Amnesty International report dated October 19 stated that 27 children had lost their lives.6 A Physicians for Human Rights team concluded that 23 Palestinian minors under the age of 17 had been killed through October 29.7 Looking only at children under the age of 13, Ha'aretz columnist Ze'ev Schiff concluded that 6 to 8 children had died.8 The Palestine Red Crescent Society asserted that prior to October 27, 43 Palestinians below the age of 20 had been killed; within that group 13 were below the age of 16.9 The loss of a single child is a terrible tragedy, but clearly the divergent claims over the numbers of child casualties is indicative of the politically explosive nature of this aspect of the Al-Aqsa intifada.

This data certainly provided an opportunity for Yasser Arafat who, addressing the Emergency Arab Summit in Cairo, appealed for help to stop the "'genocide and massacre' of his people armed with stones."10 Wielding their political clout at the United Nations, the Palestinians prevailed on the UN Human Rights Commission to condemn Israel for "crimes against humanity."11 Even the UN Security Council approved a completely one-sided resolution condemning Israel.12 Although these accusations are transparently rhetorical, there is little doubt that, by their deliberate misuse of children, the Palestinian cause has attracted new sympathy.



"Improved" Palestinian Tactics
The current violence has given the Palestinians the opportunity to improve on their widespread use of children in the original intifada of a decade ago and in other organized rioting during the interim years, such as in Hebron.13 This time the children act as bait, burning tires and shooting slingshots, to attract the television cameras and distract the IDF, in tandem with well-armed Palestinian gunmen in ambush positions.14 Since the Palestinian public knows that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, they act as shields to protect Palestinian snipers who shoot to kill any exposed members of the IDF. When the youth rush forward throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, Palestinian snipers on rooftops and in alleys take aim at the IDF, on some occasions actually shooting Palestinian children from behind.15 Alternatively, according to IDF sources, Palestinian gunmen have shot from within a rioting crowd of civilians.16

The extent of the violence directed at Israel is illustrated by statistics from the month of October 2000. Palestinians perpetrated 599 shooting incidents at military,17 police, and civilian targets.18 Twenty-six bombs were detonated with intent to harm or kill Israelis,19 and 400 Molotov cocktails were thrown at Israelis. In all there were 3,209 violent disturbances including 1,397 stone throwing incidents.20 As a consequence, six Israeli civilians and seven soldiers were killed, and 51 civilians and 139 soldiers were injured.21

A cynical use of youngsters and children was repeatedly observed at the Netzarim junction in the Gaza Strip where buildings erected under the pretence of housing members of the PLO naval forces and their families were in fact used as shooting posts against an adjacent Israeli compound. The buildings were also used by the PA to assemble children to throw Molotov cocktails, gas canisters, and stones at IDF soldiers.22

Even the ambulances that wait to pick up the injured often serve a secondary (illegally under international law23) role -- to transport gunmen, Molotov cocktails, and rocks to the confrontation with the knowledge that Israel will not fire on these "medical vehicles."24 This is a clear violation of one of the fundamental precepts of humanitarian law and places at risk the immunity generally granted to medical services. After Palestinian gunmen inside the Red Crescent Headquarters in Ramallah opened fire on the IDF; and on the same day a Red Crescent ambulance was used in a nearby shooting attack, the IDF Spokesman issued this statement: "The IDF harshly condemns and views seriously shooting attacks toward an Israeli community from a Red Crescent building and ambulance, a body that is meant to offer humanitarian and medical assistance."25 In both cases the IDF refrained from responding.26

One major difference between the current Al-Aqsa intifada and its predecessor, the original intifada of a decade ago, is the enormous increase in Palestinian firepower, primarily in the form of tens of thousands of assault rifles.27

Among the heavier weaponry in the hands of the Palestinians are shoulder-fired missiles,28 20 mm anti-aircraft cannon,29 and heavy machine guns. An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF troops at the Karnei crossing point between Israel and Gaza on October 31, 2000.30 New terrorist tactics have also been used, as with the case of the suicide bicycle rider who blew himself up alongside an IDF outpost in Gaza.31

The basic tactics of the intifadists, however, are not new. During the previous intifada, Palestinian journalist Daoud Kuttab extolled the usefulness of children-rioters in the Journal of Palestine Studies:

When the danger alarm is sounded the young people of the neighborhood divide into three teams. The first is composed of lookouts...the second team is basically defensive in nature; its main task is to cover the offensive team...the most courageous. After advancing to the Israeli position and throwing stones, the defensive team goes into action to cover the retreating youths. When the offensive team starts to retreat, it is the job of the defensive team to throw a barrage of stones at the soldiers.32

The similarities of these violent tactics to childhood games like "tag" is not coincidental; the Palestinian leadership discovered a way to channel youthful energy into the uprising.

At that time Professor William V. O'Brien of Georgetown University noted that, "[i]t appears that a substantial number, if not the majority, of troops of the intifada are young people, including elementary schoolchildren. They are engaged in throwing stones and Molotov cocktails and other forms of violence."33 During that uprising a Palestinian leaflet declared, "Every child must carry the stone and throw it at the occupier. The Molotov cocktail heroes of all ages must burn a fire in the face of the enemy and fight him face-to-face."34 This is but one example of the propaganda which has chronically been used to incite Palestinian children to participate in violent and dangerous street battles.



Incitement by Arafat and his Palestinian Authority
Thanks to their empowerment under the Oslo peace process, the Palestinian Authority has new and varied vehicles to motivate their youth to participate in anti-Israeli street violence. Television and radio stations, school textbooks, a range of newspapers and magazines, and even the summer camp curriculum are all, directly or indirectly, under the control of the PA.

Television broadcasts frequently include what in many Western countries would be deemed "hate speech." On July 2, 1998, in derogation of its commitments to combat incitement under the interim peace agreements (discussed below), a Palestinian television children's show called "The Children's Club," similar in its basic structure to "Sesame Street," aired an episode in which young boys with raised arms chanted "We are ready with our guns; revolution until victory; revolution until victory."35 On the same show, an 8-year-old boy announced to the audience (a group of children), "I come here to say that we will throw them to the quiet sea. Occupiers, your day is near, then we will settle our account. We will settle our claims with stones and bullets."36 Also on the Children's Club program, on February 8, 1998, a girl who could not have been more than ten years old declared that she wanted to "turn into a suicide warrior" in Jerusalem.37

During the past month, the Palestinian electronic media has run near-continuous coverage of riots and funerals. The standard fare on the Voice of Palestine radio station is for programs to open with details of martyrs' deaths and burials sandwiched between patriotic and Islamic songs with martial melodies. A particularly popular song on Voice of Palestine, which is broadcast on television as well, features a father singing about his son as a martyr -- the son being Mohammed Al-Dura mentioned above.38

The official media broadcast the sermon of the PA-appointed cleric at the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem who called for his followers to "eradicate the Jews from Palestine."39 Also aired was a live sermon by Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, a member of the PA-appointed Fatwa Council and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza, who called for Israelis to be humiliated, tortured, and butchered.40 He continued: "Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Americans who are like them -- and those that stand by them."41

Indicative of the official support the Palestinian Authority is giving to the utilization of children in the struggle against Israel are the words of the PA-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem, Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, in an October 28 interview with the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram Al-Arabi:

Question: What do you feel when you pray [for the souls of the martyrs]?
Sabri: I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven....
Question: Is it different when the martyr is a child?
Sabri: Yes, it is. It's hard to express it in words. There is no doubt that a child [martyr] suggests that the new generation will carry on the mission with determination. The younger the martyr -- the greater and the more I respect him....
Question: Is this why the mothers cry with joy when they hear about their sons' death?
Sabri: They willingly sacrifice their offspring for the sake of freedom. It is a great display of the power of belief. The mother is participating in the great reward of the Jihad to liberate Al-Aqsa.42

Other Palestinian institutions are also imbued with incitement. A New York Times reporter observed a PA-run summer camp program where the 25,000 campers stage the kidnapping of Israeli leaders, strip and assemble Kalachnikov assault rifles, and learn the art of ambushing.43 They are given camouflage uniforms and imitation guns.44 They parade and practice infiltration, crawling on their stomachs through obstacles. Training children for the armed struggle reminds one of the terrible price children have paid in other Middle Eastern wars. During the Iran-Iraq war, the Iranian government recruited tens of thousands of child soldiers, dubbed "Revolutionary Guards."45 Sent to the front to clear minefields and attack fortified Iraqi positions, these usually unarmed children faced near certain death.46 They were told that the little plastic key around their neck would open the gates to eternal paradise.

Even in the public schools, politics seem to be playing a major role in education. For example, the PA's Deputy Minister of Education, Naim Abu Humus, called on school administrators to dedicate the first class for praying for the souls of those killed during the Al-Aqsa intifada, saying "Today we glorify Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and remember the Palestinian martyrs."47

President Clinton, in a speech in late 1998, referred to "education for peace" as "the most important element" to make peace "sustainable."48 But Palestinian interest in reconciliation with Israel is notably absent from the Palestinian textbooks, even in the indigenous Palestinian textbooks, which this year partially replaced the old Jordanian textbooks previously used in their public schools. A sixth grade civics book portrays Israel as an aggressor and explains to the children that, "[t]he Palestinian people were expelled from their land as a result of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and have been subjected to massacres and banishment from their land."49 The map in the book makes no reference to the existence of Israel adjoining the PA territories; nor does it include major Israeli cities such as Tel Aviv.50 In fact, the only Israeli cities referenced are ones which previously had large Palestinian populations.51

The message from the top, from PA Chairman Arafat, is unequivocal. Arafat ruthlessly encourages the involvement of Palestinian children in violence, referring to them as "the generals of the rocks"52 and boasting after the IDF attack on Fatah offices, "[the attack] cannot shake one eyelash of a Palestinian child holding a stone to defend holy Jerusalem."53 Arafat plays to their pride; he would have them believe they are "generals" and heroes when they are really cannon-fodder in the media campaign to discredit Israel. As a (London) Times reporter aptly described:

But can Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat control the children?...Since birth, Palestinian children have been pumped full of religious fundamentalism which promises paradise for those who die for the cause of free Palestine....Approving or not, the Palestinian authorities have done nothing to stop children playing with their lives. Let's face it, dead kids make great telly.54

These examples of incitement may explain why a 13-year-old girl from Egypt tried to sneak into Gaza in order to "join the Palestinian children in anything, even throwing stones." The girl's father, Gamel Mabrouk, explains, "[t]his was over-enthusiasm in response to what they have seen on television." A week earlier, a 12-year-old boy was stopped at the Israeli border after attempting the same thing.

A Palestinian mental health official confirmed that Palestinian children are chiefly motivated by what they see on Palestinian television: "the role of information is an additional factor behind the will of children to die the death of a saint, for they see on television their relatives as martyrs or wounded and hear the calls of praise that they receive."55 Clearly, PA government-controlled media play a significant role in both the long-term and immediate motivation of children to place themselves in life-threatening situations.



Negating the Raison D'etre of the Peace Process
The new Palestinian violence undermines not only the spirit of the Oslo peace process but its raison d'etre -- to resolve differences through negotiation rather than violence. As Arafat proclaimed in his September 9, 1993, letter to Yitzhak Rabin:

The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and all other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations, and discipline violators.56

This was his price of admission into the U.S.-brokered and funded peace process. In return, Rabin agreed to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with what previously had been deemed a terrorist organization.57

The problem of incitement to violence has been repeatedly addressed in the interim peace agreements. For example, the Cairo Agreement, signed by Arafat in 1994, obligates the PA to "foster mutual understanding and tolerance" and "abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda [and]...take legal measures to prevent such incitement by any organizations, groups or individuals."58

The Preamble of the Oslo II interim peace agreement, signed by Arafat in 1995, reaffirms the parties' "mutual commitment to act, in accordance with this Agreement, immediately, efficiently and effectively against acts or threats of terrorism, violence or incitement, whether committed by Palestinians or Israelis."59 Oslo II also contains provisions which obligate the Palestinian Legislative Council to "foster mutual understanding and tolerance and shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda...and...take legal measures to prevent incitement by any organizations, groups or individuals within their jurisdiction."60 This is followed by the requirement that "Israel and the Council will ensure that their respective educational systems contribute to the peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples and to peace in the entire region, and will refrain from the introduction of any motifs that could adversely affect the process of reconciliation."61 The Palestinian police's "duties and functions" include "combating terrorism and violence, and preventing incitement to violence."62 However, since the Al-Aqsa intifada began, the Palestinian police, whose salaries, assault rifles, training, and uniforms were paid for by Western donors, have done absolutely nothing to stop incitement; many have even trained their rifles on the IDF.

Thereafter, article 2(b) of the Note for the Record of the Hebron Protocol, signed by Arafat in 1997, reiterated the obligation of the Palestinians to "preventing incitement and hostile propaganda as specified in Article XXII" of the Oslo II agreement.63

The endemic problem of the PA's use of textbooks that incite to violence prompted the inclusion of a separate article in the Wye Agreement, signed by Arafat in 1998.64 Section II, A(3), captioned "Preventing Incitement," states:

a. Drawing on relevant international practice and pursuant to Article XXII(1) of the Interim Agreement and Note for the Record, the Palestinian side will issue a decree prohibiting all forms of incitement to violence or terror, and establishing mechanisms for acting systematically against all expressions or threats of violence or terror. This decree will be comparable to the existing Israeli legislation which deals with the same subject.

b. A US-Palestinian-Israeli committee will meet on a regular basis to monitor cases of possible incitement to violence or terror and to make recommendations and reports on how to prevent such incitement. The Israeli-Palestinian and U.S. sides will each appoint a media specialist, a law enforcement representative, an educational specialist, and a current or former elected official to the committee.65

Although the trilateral committee did meet, the Palestinian appointees resisted efforts to edit their textbooks. An editorial in the English language Palestinian newspaper Jerusalem Times, entitled "No Apologies for the Curriculum," proclaimed "[t]he children should know their history well, whether or not it pleases the world," and continued defiantly, "[w]e should not care if our curriculum does not please Israel."66 In the newspaper Al-Quds, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council denigrated the anti-incitement provisions of the Wye Agreement as "the most dangerous as it touches on the national ideology and national consciousness."67

In the most recent Sharm el-Sheikh interim agreement, signed by Arafat in 1999, which intended to implement the outstanding commitments of the previously signed agreements, the PA rededicated itself to: "8(a) ...immediately and effectively respond to the occurrence or anticipated occurrence of an act of terrorism, violence or incitement and shall take all necessary measures to prevent such an occurrence."68 But as demonstrated, none of the anti-incitement provisions in the interim peace agreements, each one signed by Arafat, have been honored in practice.



The Parents' Motivations
Stroked by Arafat's speeches lauding the role of children in their struggle, repeatedly encouraged by their leadership to express "rage," many Palestinian parents have come to view the role of the youth in the uprising as useful and honorable. A child killed in a street confrontation becomes a shaheed (Arabic for "martyr") of the Palestinian cause, bringing social recognition and a cash payment to his family -- $2,000 per child killed and $300 per child wounded.69

Martyrs, people who die for the sake of the holy jihad and Islam, are held in such high regard by the Palestinian people that at times parents accept the death of their children as a badge of pride. Parents of toddlers proudly recount the little children saying they want to become martyrs, and a father of a 13-year-old says "I pray that God will choose them" to be martyrs.70 One mother told a journalist from the (London) Times, "I am happy that he [her 13-year-old son] has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my sons and daughters (12 in all) to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem."71 In the Jabalya refugee camp a father said he was proud his young son died with a rock in his hand.72 Another mother boasted that she bore her son precisely for the purpose of participating in such Jihad, while the child's father proudly claimed to have provided his son with the training.73 Taman Sabeh, a 50-year-old woman in Nablus, was quoted by an AP reporter, "[i]f I had 20 children I would send them all down (to fight), I wouldn't spare any of them. We're not scared of death."74

Thus for many Palestinian children, incitement begins at home.75 Yet many Palestinian parents have attempted to hold their children back, and have resisted those who would place them in harm's way.76 However, Hafez Bargutti, the editor-in-chief of the Palestinian Authority official daily newspaper, Al Hayyat Al Jedida, wrote an editorial condemning parents who forbid their children from joining the riots.77

When the international media challenged Palestinian Legislative Councilwoman Hanan Ashrawi, she replied with the accusation of "racism."78 Ashrawi asserted, "They're telling us we have no feelings for our children. We're not human beings, we're not parents, we're not mothers and fathers."79 Other Palestinians have also faulted those who blamed the Palestinian parents and leadership. George Abu Al-Zulof, Director of a Palestinian NGO, claimed "parents do not send their children to confront soldiers." Al-Zulof asserted, "[s]uch contact is unavoidable due to a military presence in front of schools, homes, and community centers throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip."80

Wouldn't it be wonderful if his claim were true, but since the peace process redeployment of Israeli forces, about 99 percent of Palestinians live under PA civil administration. Thus, if there are armed individuals in front of their "schools, homes and community centers,"81 they are most certainly Palestinian police, Hamas terrorists, Tanzim gunmen,82 or members of one of Arafat's multiple security forces. The overwhelming majority of Palestinian civilians encounter IDF soldiers only when they reach a checkpoint on the road outside their cities, towns, and villages. If a Palestinian mob attacking an Israeli checkpoint succeeded in overrunning it, the soldiers would likely be lynched and mutilated, as were two reservists who took a wrong turn into Ramallah.83



Identifying Child Abuse and Possessing the Courage to Speak Out
Queen Silvia of Sweden was one of the first public figures to offer insight into the question of responsibility for the deaths of Palestinian children. At a meeting of the World Childhood Foundation at the United Nations, she criticized leaders for "exploiting them [the children] and risking their lives in a political fight."84 She continued, "As a mother I'm very worried about this. I'd like to tell them to quit. This is very dangerous. The children should not take part."85

One courageous Arab journalist, Huda Al-Hussein, published her condemnation of the tactics of child sacrifice in the London-based newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat. She asked:

While UN Organizations save child-soldiers, especially in Africa, from the control of militia leaders who hurl them into the furnace of gang-fighting, some Palestinian leaders... consciously issue orders with the purpose of ending their childhood, even if it means their last breath....If these children have nothing to lose, and they think the training is...a game, are we supposed to continue pushing them with hypocrisy and stupid enthusiasm to actually lose their lives....What kind of independence is built on the blood of children while the leaders are safe and so are their children and grandchildren?...Isn't it sad that a Palestinian mother who loses a child looks around and cannot find other mothers crying nearby because every other mother waits her turn to receive the corpse of a child? They take the children from their mothers and at the same time they strip their mother of any sympathy.86

Palestinian legislators and columnists have begun to acknowledge the problem they have with mixing child protesters with Palestinian gunmen in confrontations with the Israeli army; thus Palestinian legislator Ashraf al-Ajrami stated in the Palestinian daily al-Ayyam: "[The intifada] is first and foremost a popular intifada that derives its importance from this description. Thus, it is imperative to protect its nature and not mix popular confrontations -- in which all our people are participating and armed with their determination, stones, and the means of popular struggle -- with armed confrontations."87 However, PA Minister of Information Yasser Abd Rabbo, perhaps in reaction to the growing criticism of the use of children in armed confrontations, called in early November for barring participation of children under the age of 16 in demonstrations against Israel.88

IDF Brig. Gen. Benny Gantz, a division commander on the West Bank, offered good advice to Palestinian parents:

If the Palestinian people want their kids to be safe, then they should make sure their kids stay in a place where kids should be. And when they are sending their kids forward and they are firing at us and then the kids are in the killing zone, so unfortunately sometimes, really unfortunately, those things happen.89

According to a prominent evangelical pastor with excellent contacts in the West Bank, Christian Arab parents in the greater Bethlehem area have come under threats from the PA because "no Christian blood has been spilled, only Moslem blood" and because "Moslems have donated their children to the cause, but Christians haven't." Told that the families and parents of "martyrs" will receive food first, the Christian Arabs, many of whom discourage their children from participating in the Al-Aqsa intifada, fear that they will starve.90



Israeli Restraint: The IDF Rules of Engagement
According to international law, in particular Article 43 of the Hague Regulations of 1907, Israel is obliged to ensure public order and safety in the areas it occupied in self-defense in the Six-Day War of 1967.91 This means that Israel must carry out necessary security measures in response to the widespread shooting and stoning that has characterized the Al-Aqsa intifada. Were the Palestinian police willing to perform their delegated local police function92 in Palestinian-populated areas, Israel would have no reason to intervene. But when just the opposite transpires, and the Palestinian police and security forces turn a blind eye to violence emanating from their areas, or join in the shooting, the IDF has no alternative but to fulfill its international law obligations.

The force employed by the IDF in response to these complex and dangerous confrontations is not indiscriminate. Nor is it intended to harm the Palestinian youths. Rather the goal is to restore safety on the highways and other locations where violence has been instigated. IDF regulations make every effort to avoid incurring unnecessary casualties. Especially strict rules apply to the employment of live ammunition,93 preferring to make due, whenever possible, with loudspeaker warnings, tear gas, stun grenades, and rubber bullets. Soldiers are prohibited from opening fire with live ammunition unless: (1) they are fired upon; (2) they are in a situation where despite verbal warnings there remains an immediate danger to their lives or the lives of Israeli civilians; or (3) they are apprehending an escaping suspect who is believed to have committed a serious crime.94 Any soldiers who violate the rules of engagement are subject to investigation, disciplinary trial and, in serious cases, court-martial, as well they should.



International Law: Efforts to Protect Children from the Dangers of Armed Conflict
In order to assure that children are not involved in wars and other violent conflicts, it is necessary to keep them out of harm's way both physically and emotionally. International law broadly attempts to protect children from the horrors of armed conflict. For example, the use (by states) of children as shields to impede the adversary's military operations is prohibited. Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention strictly forbids the use of any civilian as a shield. Jean Pictet, in the official Red Cross commentary on article 28, notes that the use of civilians (of any age) as shields has been condemned as cruel and barbaric.95

In addition, article 38 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) condemns the recruitment and involvement of children under 15 years old in hostilities and armed conflicts. This provision clearly states, "[s]tate parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of 15 years do not take a direct part in hostilities."96 Current treaty law not only forbids children to participate in combat, but it also proscribes a wide range of other indirect activities.97

Article 3 of the UN Convention states that administrative authorities or legislative bodies of a state shall place "the best interest of a child" as their primary consideration98 and, with that principle in mind, a number of states have raised the minimum age to 18.99 Article 36 asserts that state parties shall protect the child against all other forms of exploitation prejudicial to any aspects of the child's welfare, which logically includes even their voluntary recruitment to participate in a conflict.100 Ironically, this standard appears to conform with Islamic law, which prohibits children under 15 from participating in a jihad.101 But neither international law nor Islamic law has curtailed the exploitation of children in the Al-Aqsa intifada.

While the PA has administrative responsibilities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the PA is not a sovereign entity,102 and therefore is not de jure bound by the above mentioned conventions.103 However, it is nothing less than hypocrisy for the PA to continuously pressure the international community to condemn Israel for violating human rights, while it blatantly disregards even the most rudimentary international standards of protection when it comes to its own children. Their misuse of children should set off an alarm for the world community; raising doubts as to whether a future Palestinian state would be a law-abiding member of the international community.

Israel, by contrast, is endeavoring under the most trying circumstances to respect international law as regards Palestinian children. Elaborate laws and regulations govern the treatment of the Palestinian civilian population, even when they engage in hostilities. These principles aim at sparing the innocent civilian population from the dangers of armed conflict. Israel's active and liberal Supreme Court frequently reviews challenges to particular polices and conduct of the IDF, to keep the standards high.



Conclusion and Outlook
It is unquestionably a tragedy when children fall victim to the Al-Aqsa intifada, but the blame for this tragedy does not rest with the IDF. The tragic reality is that children, often of primary school age, man the intifada's first line of offense. They are incited by the Palestinian leadership, from Arafat on down, to begin riots, burn tires, throw together roadblocks, toss Molotov cocktails and stones, and function as a smokescreen between armed Palestinian gunmen and the IDF. The Western public must ask why are Palestinian educated to hate and place themselves in harm's way? The answer: many Palestinian activists, such as Tanzim leader Hussein a-Sheikh, believe that gains in future negotiations will be greater following the riots, which have made the Palestinians victims in the eyes of the world.104 In the words of Nobel Peace Prize laureate Elie Weisel:

Those of us who reject hatred and fanaticism as options, who consider peace as the noblest of efforts, finally recognize Yasser Arafat for what he is: ignorant, devious and unworthy of trust. We had hoped for a genuine peace between Israeli and Palestinian children playing together, studying together, laughing together, and discovering each other's worlds. The pain, the agony, the death of any child, Palestinian or Jewish, is a torment to us. But why does Chairman Arafat not protect them but instead uses them as shields for adults throwing stones and worse?105

Thus it is not the IDF, but rather the Palestinian leadership, which should ultimately be held responsible for the injury and death among their rioting children.

Israeli society revolves around the family. Jews as a people have always placed paramount emphasis on improving the lives of their children, and not only their own children. Israelis and Jews everywhere therefore deeply regret that Palestinian children have been caught up in the recent violence.

Imagine how much less powerful Palestinian propaganda would be without cynically sacrificing children in front of the television cameras.106 What if Arafat set an example for the Palestinian political and religious leadership by exhorting the youth to press their views via non-violent protest -- candlelight vigils, sit-ins, peaceful marches, petitions, and the like? Regrettably, despite the fact that Israel earnestly sought to reach a final peace agreement with the PLO, he and they chose incitement, blood, smoke and gunfire, bringing on the cataclysm which is swallowing young lives and the peace process whole.107

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:15 PM

As I said before, until recently, I supported Israel. Its only because of their method of dealing with Palestinians and the Hezbollah terrorists that I have changed my mind. Past history has nothing to do with my opinion of Israel today.

John on the SC - I think you should revise your statement to one
soldier is worth about 500 women and children.

Is it so hard to understand that Hezbollah and Hamas want the women and children returned? What kind of game is Israel playing? Israel imprisoned women and children. Hesbollah targetted soldiers and Israel retaliated by bombing Lebanon rather than negotiating a hostage exchange.

It makes Israel look like an unreasonable bully.

I have come to believe that now that Israel has power and military might, they have become just as oppressive as their previous oppressors. The Nazis taught them alot. It is Israel who has forgotten that 'Never Again' applies to all, not just Jews.

...and those of you who want to simplify this problem by calling people anti-semitic, resort to name-calling because they are unable to justify the actions of the Israeli government. You use ancient history to justify the actions of Israel. If that were a bona fide excuse, the entire world would be plunged into war as a result of past injustices.

Whenever you use anti-semitism as an excuse for Israeli aggression, you do the Jewish people a disservice. Stop feeling sorry for your self and start taking some responsibility for the lives of others who are suffering at the hands of the Israelis.

Not all Jews live in Israel and not all Jews in Israel support the actions of the Israeli government. It is the actions of the Israeli government that upsets me, not the Jewish people. If Israeli was Chinese or French, I would still object.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:19 PM

All you're saying is very true, bb, and as well right now there are photos on the front page of the papers, of young israeli girls writing messages on bombs before they're dispatched to lebanon (the bombs, not the girls)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,"sometimes unfortunate things happen" Josh
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

A phrase that echoes with the sound of slaughter...and by God the Palestinian children have been slaughtered!
Josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,grumpy
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

I thought there was going to be a LIMIT on the size of copy & paste articles!!!!!

damn it, beardedbruce & the occasional other, give us a LINK! We'll read it if we want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:05 PM

bb says, "Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, and face disciplinary procedures or court martial for breaches..."

So what about the innocent children who have died from single bullet wounds? Please show me some evidence that the Israeli soldiers involved in these crimes have faced disciplinary prodedures or that the incidents were even investigated by the Israeli military or the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM

The trial of an Israeli soldier accused of needlessly shooting the body of a Palestinian schoolgirl has opened in a military court.
Iman al-Hams was shot close to an Israeli watchtower in the southern Gaza town of Rafah when soldiers suspected her of planting a bomb.

She was then shot several more times by a soldier who approached her in order to "verify the kill".

The unidentified soldier has been charged with five offences.

He was originally cleared of any wrongdoing in the shooting, on 5 October, but charges were later brought after a military police investigation.

The soldier, known as Captain R, faces two counts of illegally using his weapon, as well as charges of obstruction of justice, conduct unbecoming an officer and improper use of authority.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4082649.stm


So, care to provide even ONE example of the Plaestinian authorities holding ANY of the terrorists deliberately targeting civilians for trial or even investigation?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

A black flag
By Gideon Levy

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733427.html

A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to penetrate Syria's airspace. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament.

A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization. The harsher the steps, the more monstrous and stupid they become, the more the moral underpinnings for them are removed and the stronger the impression that the Israeli government has lost its nerve. Now one must hope that the weekend lull, whether initiated by Egypt or the prime minister, and in any case to the dismay of Channel 2's Roni Daniel and the IDF, will lead to a radical change.

Everything must be done to win Gilad Shalit's release. What we are doing now in Gaza has nothing to do with freeing him. It is a widescale act of vengeance, the kind that the IDF and Shin Bet have wanted to conduct for some time, mostly motivated by the deep frustration that the army commanders feel about their impotence against the Qassams and the daring Palestinian guerilla raid. There's a huge gap between the army unleashing its frustration and a clever and legitimate operation to free the kidnapped soldier.

To prevent the army from running as amok as it would like, a strong and judicious political echelon is required. But facing off against the frustrated army is Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz's tyro regime, weak and happless. Until the weekend lull, it appeared that each step proposed by the army and Shin Bet had been immediately approved for backing. That does not bode well, not only for the chances of freeing Shalit, but also for the future management of the government, which is being revealed to be as weak as the Hamas government.

The only wise and restrained voice heard so far was that of the soldier's father, Noam Shalit, of all people. That noble man called at what is clearly his most difficult hour, not for stridency and not for further damage done to the lives of soldiers and innocent Palestinians. Against the background of the IDF's unrestrained actions and the arrogant bragging of the latest macho spokesmen, Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant of the Southern Command and Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Gilad, Shalit's father's voice stood out like a voice crying in the wilderness.

Sending tens of thousands of miserable inhabitants running from their homes, dozens of kilometers from where his son is supposedly hidden, and cutting off the electricity to hundreds of thousands of others, is certainly not what he meant in his understated emotional pleas. It's a shame nobody is listening to him, of all people.

The legitimate basis for the IDF's operation was stripped away the moment it began. It's no accident that nobody mentions the day before the attack on the Kerem Shalom fort, when the IDF kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. The difference between us and them? We kidnapped civilians and they captured a soldier, we are a state and they are a terror organization. How ridiculously pathetic Amos Gilad sounds when he says that the capture of Shalit was "illegitimate and illegal," unlike when the IDF grabs civilians from their homes. How can a senior official in the defense ministry claim that "the head of the snake" is in Damascus, when the IDF uses the exact same methods?

True, when the IDF and Shin Bet grab civilians from their homes - and they do so often - it is not to murder them later. But sometimes they are killed on the doorsteps of their homes, although it is not necessary, and sometimes they are grabbed to serve as "bargaining chips," like in Lebanon and now, with the Palestinian legislators. What an uproar there would be if the Palestinians had grabbed half the members of the Israeli government. How would we label them?

Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives. And what will this inhumane step lead to? Support for the Israeli government? Their enlistment as informants and collaborators for the Shin Bet? Can the miserable farmers of Beit Hanun and Beit Lahia do anything about the Qassam rocket-launching cells? Will bombing an already destroyed airport do anything to free the soldier or was it just to decorate the headlines?

Did anyone think about what would have happened if Syrian planes had managed to down one of the Israeli planes that brazenly buzzed their president's palace? Would we have declared war on Syria? Another "legitimate war"? Will the blackout of Gaza bring down the Hamas government or cause the population to rally around it? And even if the Hamas government falls, as Washington wants, what will happen on the day after? These are questions for which nobody has any real answers. As usual here: Quiet, we're shooting. But this time we are not only shooting. We are bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 01:47 PM

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimony_en.asp?full=415

The witness:       1st Sergeant, Paratroops

The Location:      Jenin

Date:                      February-May 2003
Description:

"We took up positions of �Straw Widow� (a disguised ambush). We were told that this �Straw Widow� was against armed people and against people climbing on our armed vehicles. Our APCs (armed personnel carriers) were cruising 24 hours a day close to buildings (in Jenin), waiting for kids to climb on them, trying to dislodge the top -mounted MG (machine gun) and to shoot them. We had fixed positions inside Jenin�s casbah, the APCs were on the streets, below us. They were moving continuously. We were expressly told that we were just waiting for someone to climb on an APC, and ordered to shoot to kill. We quickly understood that we weren�t expected to deal with armed people as no armed Palestinian would roam the streets with so many APCs around. They (our authorities) were looking for children or plain people daring to climb on an APC or on any other armored vehicle. We understood that from the talks with our officers.

After a day or two, a 12-year old kid climbed on one of the APCs. There were lots of guesses about his age. First they said he was 8, later, that he was 12. I don�t know. In any case he climbed on an APC and one of our sharpshooters killed him. I already mentioned, we were looking for kids. The neighboring company also had an incident with a kid or teenager, climbing an APC, who was also killed. Some of us said that this whole operation was unnecessary as its purpose was to kill kids, while others said that it was very good.

Was it known that he was unarmed?
He was surely unarmed and he climbed on this�. No one asked you why you had two Xs (a mark on the rifle signaling a killed target)"


It's policy to target civilians. That's why the ones who do it are never punished. They sometimes have a show trial so people like beardedbruce can say they don't allow killing of civilians, but these things are almost never brought to trial, and the people involved are never punished.

And the ones who kill the most civilians, they get promoted to prime minister, like Ariel Sharon.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

Indeed, reading Mudcat, it seems that you are always quite upset by us. One day, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians, the next day is Lebanon. I'm sure if Mudcat had existed then you would have been upset about the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.

Nice smear attempt, Irwin, but no cigar. You are trying to justify what cannot be justified, and so ugly smears are the best you have to work with. But you know as well as I do, that smears like that one have no basis in fact.

My posting history is a matter of public record here in the Mudcat. Prior to the Israeli incursion into the occupied Palestinian areas in 2002, my position was not all that different from that of people like beardedbruce.

If you look at my posting history, you will see that I never posted to any threads about the Middle East prior to the incursion in 2002. And if you read my posts on threads about the Middle East after the start of that incursion, you will see that I have arrived at the position I hold now gradually, and through a long and painstaking process of questioning and investigating.

I arrived at my current position when I discovered that the government of Israel and its policies and practices are morally bankrupt and morally reprehensible, and that I (and the rest of the world) have been lied to continuously by the government of Israel and the Western media about the history of the Middle East, and about what is going on there now.

And you will find that more and more people, many of whom started out like me, accepting the party line coming out of Israel without question for our whole lives, are waking up and seeing what is really going on, and deciding that they cannot support it, and indeed, that they must speak up against it. The numbers are growing because the slaughtering of innocents, and the brutal repression of millions of people cannot be concealed forever, and deep down, most people really do have a conscience (unlike you, apparently).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

By the way, Irwin... in answer to your questions, the reason Palestinians resisted prior to 1967, is because they were being displaced from their homes and their livlihoods, and they were also being indiscriminitaly slaughtered by proto-Israeli terrorists, and after that, by the Israeli government. Prior to the arrival of the Europeans Jews in the latter part of the 1800s and the early part of the 1900s, Jews, Christians, and Muslims all lived together in that area in relative harmony.

And even the Mizrahi Jews (I bet you don't even know what "Mizrahi" means) resisted the encroachment of the Europeans Jews in those early days. None of the indigenous people (Jew and non-Jew alike) wanted the supremacist European Jews to appropriate their land and their livlihoods.

It's not about Jews versus non-Jews. It's about suprmacist Europeans versus indigenous peoples. Trying to make it about Jews versus non-Jews is just a smoke screen.

It's not enough for you that I support the existance of Israel within the pre-1967 borders. You want me to support the continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by the government of Israel. You are a racist and a supremacist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM

How do normal people participate in discussions like this, when certain individuals take over and plaster the discussion with reams of copy-paste propaganda from questionable or unattributed sources?

I said this:

I have to say that I'm puzzled by all of this. First, Israel leaves Gaza, which I would think would make the Palestinians very happy - but apparently they responded by increasing attacks on Israel.

CarolC responded:

People need to try reading the thread. This one has been addressed probably dozens of times.

Hey, there are 592 messages in this thread, much of it copy-pasted propaganda. I'd like a sensible, balanced, brief explanation of the situation, not propaganda. I think there is logic and good will on both sides of the issue, and that there should be common ground that can be reached.

It appears that CarolC represents the bulk of the discussion on one side of the issue, the pro-Palestinian position. Beardedbruce represents the pro-Israeli position. Carol and Bruce are both experts at copy-pasting propaganda that "proves" that the opposing side is inherently evil. In fact, that seems to be the basic premise of the discussion - that one side is right, and the other side is wrong.

I think there is right on both sides, and wrong on both sides - and I believe that somewhere, there must be common ground. So, where is the truth in all this? It's certainly not in the message from "Irwin," that Google finds posted 86 times at various sites.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:43 PM

I think it is time we introduced a song to this thread. I realised that the Israeli army would have no chance of being exonorated for killing children when I was told by a proud translator what an 8 year old Palestinian boy was singing. His entire school were being trained to hate and kill Israelis.

"For my country I shall sacrifice myself
How sweet is Shahada (martyrdom)Be joyous
over my blood and do not cry for me"

An Iraeli military officer (who had two children the same age) sobbed that "I could never raise my own children to hate Palestinians that much" he had seen a young boy throw a petrol bomb at a truck, and was then shot in the back by a Palestinian sniper to ensure the Israelis got blamed when the convoy drove away without firing.

And if you don't believe me, try asking Amnesty International.
Nuff Said i'm sick of this thread (and the memories and PTSS)

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 04:52 PM

Thanks, Carol, especially for: http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimony_en.asp?full=415
thats the article I was looking for.

bb - Your article was from 2004. So what was the verdict?

I know that terrorists deliberately target civilians. They do not, however, deliberately target children. Read the above link from an Israeli soldier and try to tell me that Israeli soldiers do not target children.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

I wonder when we will get a similar statement from Hezbollah or Hamas people?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 06:31 PM

Is it any wonder that the Palestinians sometimes resort to suicide bombing?
On one side you have one of the most technologically advanced army's in the world more than ready to use its wide array of military hardware on a military weak opposition...often the Palestinians are unarmed or are throwing rocks.
Tome and time again they are shot by sharpshooters or hit by riubber bullets fired at high velocity.
Then when the hot war is unleashed they are bombed,shelled or hit by tank fire.5000 shells have been indiscriminately fired into Gaza during the past few months.
Both Gaza and the Lebanon are open targets for the Israelis who seem to be running out of apartment blocks,bridges and hospitals to destroy.
The difference between the suicide bomber and the warplane pilot is that the pilot drops his bomb on a house or car and then returns home for tea....the bomber detonates his belt in a restaurant and kills himself.
Pres Bush ad Tony Blair [yo Blair indeed ] have got a great deal to answer for ...they are both wading in the blood of Palistinians,Lebanese, Afghani and Iraqi civilians
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:33 PM

Hamas and Hezbollah are wading in the blood of Israelis also. Convenient when the folks here forget that, but true nevertheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:25 PM

Guest, Dan:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:22 AM

What a question!
Hundreds of totally innocent Palestinians are being slaughtered ,maimed and thousands are being terrorised...a whole country is in the prOcess of being destroyed for the second time in twenty years while Palestinians removed forcibly from their homes 6 decades ago are now being blown up and slaughtered yet again in Gaza and the West Bank....

Your question...what about the 1967 border.
My answer is there is no room for a zionism that is in deadly partnership with the USA to slaughter its neighbours.
I believe that those strutting zionist paramiltaries should go back to their homes in New York becaust they are murdering the people whose lands they have stole.

The problem is zionism and the zionists......

1 Stop the state mass murder
2 Stop the destruction of both Gaza and the Lebanon
3 Release the prisoners,women,children and the three Israeli soldiers.
4 Withdraw from the occupied territories of Gaza,West Bank and the Golan Heights.
5 Full right of return for all the Palestinian refugees and their children whose lands and homes have been dispossed.
6 Full civil and human and religious rights for all in a democratic Palestine.

The above is not a utopian solution it is the only alternative to the Long War stretching out into the next century being envisaged and planned for by both the zionists leading Israel and their American neo con allies.
Their way is still all ab
out oil and strategic power...but another world is possible...and on the evidence we have seen in Gaza and the Lebanon..absolutely essential.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Freddie
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM

Its woorth saying that the mass terror tactics now being used by Israel to turn 500000 Lebanese civilians into "displaced " persons are similar to the tactics used by Israel in 1948 to expel the Palestinian people from cities like Haifa.
Then the Israelis used the bomb,the machine gun and the sharp knife....today it is a bigger bomb and the missile strike.
Freddie

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:57 AM

Where's Walt?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:11 AM

Guest, dan - Thats it in a nutshell.

The alternative is years and years of war, the destruction of homes and cities (never mind the environment) and too many innocent lives lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

And a cease to the rockets from Hezbollah, and the terrorist attacks from both Hamas and Hezbollah, and no more shelling by Syria from the Golan Heights, and you just might have the start of something good, Danny or Walt or ifor or Susan or, or, or.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:27 AM

peace
what you havent seemed to have grasped is that both Hamas and Hezbollah are products of Israeli aggression in that region.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:37 AM

Yes. And what you haven't grasped is that Isreal is a State, a Country. If your consistent fall-back position is that anything terrorist organizations do in the name of whatever it will be called THIS week is OK, then you are little better than they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM

The problem is the state of Israel was founded on the land stolen from another group.The Palestinians were not only forcibly thrown off their own land....the land was then incorporated into an unwanted state.It was a sort of double ejection.Out of their homes and out of the new state.
It is not for nothing that Israel has been called by the socialist and Jewish writer John Rose "a hijack state"
The problem of the Palestinians will return to haunt Israel for generations to come...the Palestinians get bombed,starved and exiled ...but still they keep coming back for their land ,their homes and their cities.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

Israel's war drive isfuelled by a murderous doctrine.The carnage in the Lebanon and Gaza is the application of the Zionist doctrine known as the "Iron Wall" philosophy.

This was pioneered in the 1920 s by the founder of the far right "revisionist " school of Zionism Zeev Jabotinsky who argued that Zionists should use overwhelming force to defeat their Arab foe.

As the progressive Israeli historian and Oxford academic Avi Shlaim has shown in his book The Iron Wall ,nealrly every Israeli leader has signed up to this murderous doctrine.Ehuad Olmert,the Israeli prime minister is no exception.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israeli special forces battled Hezbollah guerrillas Thursday during a second day of fierce ground fighting in war-ravaged southern Lebanon.

The Israeli offensive began is intended to wipe out the remaining capabilities of the Islamic militia, Israeli military officials said.

The Israeli military estimates that its air assault on Lebanon has destroyed about half of Hezbollah's military strength. It is using ground forces to target Hezbollah's remaining artillery, believed hidden in caves, tunnels and basements.

CNN cannot independently confirm Israel's estimation of Hezbollah's military strength.

As Israel and Hezbollah stepped up their assaults, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan on Thursday demanded "an immediate cessation of hostilities" to prevent further loss of life, allow for humanitarian relief and give diplomacy a chance.

While Israel "has a right to defend itself" against Hezbollah attacks on its cities and soldiers, "the excessive use of force is to be condemned," Annan said in an address to the U.N. Security Council.

Annan also condemned Hezbollah for starting the crisis and for holding "an entire nation hostage." (Full story)

The fighting began after Hezbollah guerillas captured two Israeli soldiers during a raid into northern Israel on July 12.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/mideast/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

The leader of Hizbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, is being declared another Nasser (the Egyptian leader that took the Arab world into several wars with Israel). This comparison is not seen as flattering. In retrospect, Nasser's pugnaciousness is seen as a disaster for the Arab world. The last war Nasser participated in, was in 1967. It lasted six days, and the armed forces of Egypt, Syria and Jordan were shattered by the Israelis. It's called the Six Day War because six days was all Israel needed to accomplish this. Arabs blame Nasser for this disaster, and many now believe that Nasrallah is playing the same game. It has become conventional wisdom that Israel will only be defeated in the long term. It will take generations, perhaps over a century to overwhelm Israel.

Nasrallah sounds like a brave, bold and heroic figure now, as Hizbollah fires rockets into Israel. But at the same time, Israeli bombs, missiles and shells destroy Lebanon, inflicting far more damage on Arabs than Hisbollah on Israel. Worse yet, Nasrallah is doing the bidding of Iran, a radical, and too most Moslems, heretical, nation that has never looked after the best interests of Arabs. Thus when an Arab calls Hassan Nasrallah, "another Nasser," there's good reason why this is done without a smile.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

Hassan Nasrallah eats very well, doesn't he.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:12 PM

Israel reported it's aircraft have destroyed an Iranian Zelzal ballistic missile in southern Lebanon. The Zelzal is a 610mm, 50 foot long, 3.5 ton missile with a range of 160 kilometers, and carrying a 1,300 pound high explosive warhead. The missile can also carry chemical or biological weapons in its warhead, but there was no evidence of this in the Zelzal that Israel destroyed. The Zelzal does uses a crude guidance system, which would be adequate against large urban areas. The missile is carried, and launched from, a special heavy truck. Development on the Zelzal began in the mid-1990s.

The Zelzal has a solid fuel rocket motor, and thus creates a characteristic smoke and light show when the rocket motor is set off by a nearby explosion. Lebanese photos of a Zelzal missile crashing to the ground (after the rocket motor partially ignited after a missile from an Israeli F-15 hit it), were mistakenly labeled by Arab media as an Israeli F-16 crashing, after being hit by Lebanese anti-aircraft fire. But a close examination of the photo shows it is not a jet fighter coming down. There were reports of Hizbollah receiving Iranian missiles, via Syria, in 2004.

There has also been evidence of Syrian, Russian made, BM-27 rockets being fired into northern Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:18 PM

Ok, Joe Offer... here's the answer to your question about why the Gazans captured that soldier...

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php

"Few readers of a British newspaper would have noticed the story. In the Observer of 25 June, it merited a mere paragraph hidden in the �World in brief� section, revealing that the previous day a team of Israeli commandos had entered the Gaza Strip to �detain� two Palestinians Israel claims are members of Hamas.

The significance of the mission was alluded to in a final phrase describing this as �the first arrest raid in the territory since Israel pulled out of the area a year ago�. More precisely, it was the first time the Israeli army had re-entered the Gaza Strip, directly violating Palestinian control of the territory, since it supposedly left in August last year.

As the Observer landed on doorsteps around the UK, however, another daring mission was being launched in Gaza that would attract far more attention from the British media � and prompt far more concern.

Shortly before dawn, armed Palestinians slipped past Israeli military defences to launch an attack on an army post close by Gaza called Kerem Shalom. They sneaked through a half-mile underground tunnel dug under an Israeli-built electronic fence that surrounds the Strip and threw grenades at a tank, killing two soldiers inside. Seizing another, wounded soldier the gunmen then disappeared back into Gaza.

Whereas the Israeli �arrest raid� had passed with barely a murmur, the Palestinian attack a day later received very different coverage. The BBC�s correspondent in Gaza, Alan Johnstone, started the ball rolling later the same day in broadcasts in which he referred to the Palestinian attack as �a major escalation in cross-border tensions�. (BBC World news, 10am GMT, 25 June 2006)

Johnstone did not explain why the Palestinian attack on an Israeli army post was an escalation, while the Israeli raid into Gaza the previous day was not. Both were similar actions: violations of a neighbour�s territory.

The Palestinians could justify attacking the military post because the Israeli army has been using it and other fortified positions to fire hundreds of shells into Gaza that have contributed to some 30 civilian deaths over the preceding weeks. Israel could justify launching its mission into Gaza because it blames the two men it seized for being behind some of the hundreds of home-made Qassam rockets that have been fired out of Gaza, mostly ineffectually, but occasionally harming Israeli civilians in the border town of Sderot.

So why was the Palestinian attack, and not the earlier Israeli raid, an escalation? The clue came in the same report from Johnstone, in which he warned that Israel would feel compelled to launch �retaliations� for the attack, implying that a re-invasion of the Gaza Strip was all but inevitable.

So, in fact, the �escalation� and �retaliation� were one and the same thing. Although Johnstone kept repeating that the Palestinian attack had created an escalation, what he actually meant was that Israel was choosing to escalate its response. Both sides could continue their rocket fire, but only Israel was in a position to reinvade with tanks and ground forces.

There was another intriguing aspect to Johnstone�s framework for interpreting these fast-moving events, one that would be adopted by all the British media. He noted that the coming Israeli �retaliation� -- the reinvasion -- had a specific cause: the escalation prompted by the brief Palestinian attack that left two Israeli soldiers dead and a third captured.

But what about the Palestinian attack: did it not have a cause too? According to the British media, apparently not. Apart from making vague references to the Israeli artillery bombardment of the Gaza Strip over the previous weeks, Johnstone and other reporters offered no context for the Palestinian attack. It had no obvious cause or explanation. It appeared to come out of nowhere, born presumably only of Palestinian malice.

Or as a Guardian editorial phrased it: �Confusion surrounds the precise motives of the gunmen from the Islamist group Hamas and two other armed organisations who captured the Israeli corporal and killed two other soldiers on Sunday. But it was clearly intended to provoke a reaction, as is the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.� ('Storm over Gaza,' 29 June 2006)

It was not as though Johnstone or the Guardian had far to look for reasons for the Palestinian attack, explanations that might frame it as a retaliation no different from the Israeli one. In addition to the shelling that has caused some 30 civilian deaths and inflicted yet more trauma on a generation of Palestinian children, Israel has been blockading Gaza�s borders to prevent food and medicines from reaching the population and it has successfully pressured international donors to cut off desperately needed funds to the Palestinian government. Then, of course, there was also the matter of the Israeli army�s violation of Palestinian-controlled territory in Gaza the day before.

None of this context surfaced to help audiences distinguish cause and effect, and assess for themselves who was doing the escalating and who the retaliating.

That may have been because all of these explanations make sense only in the context of Israel�s continuing occupation of Gaza. But that context conflicts with a guiding assumption in the British media: that the occupation finished with Israel�s disengagement from Gaza in August last year. With the occupation over, all grounds for Palestinian �retaliation� become redundant.

The Guardian�s diplomatic editor, Ewen MacAskill certainly took the view that Israel should be able to expect quiet after its disengagement. �Having pulled out of Gaza last year, the Israelis would have been justified in thinking they might enjoy a bit of peace on their southern border.� ('An understandable over-reaction,' Comment is Free, 28 June 2006)

Never mind that Gaza�s borders, airspace, electromagnetic frequencies, electricity and water are all under continuing Israeli control, or that the Palestinians are not allowed an army, or that Israel is still preventing Gazans from having any contact with Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Meetings of the Palestinian parliament have to be conducted over video links because Israel will not allow MPs in Gaza to travel to Ramallah in the West Bank.

These factors might have helped to explain continuing Palestinian anger, but in British coverage of the conflict they appear to be unmentionables."


Bunch of fucking racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:17 PM

That article, Carol, and the article linked by Petr in another thread should be read by everyone interested in a balanced account of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:03 PM

This is the simple question that I asked, capable of a response 'yes' or a response 'no'.

Guest, Dan:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

This was Guest,Dan first response:

What a question!
Hundreds of totally innocent Palestinians are being slaughtered ,maimed and thousands are being terrorised...a whole country is in the prOcess of being destroyed for the second time in twenty years while Palestinians removed forcibly from their homes 6 decades ago are now being blown up and slaughtered yet again in Gaza and the West Bank....

This is a hyperbolized statement that amplifies that Palestinians are involved in the penetration of Israeli territory and the killing and kidnapping of Israelis. Oh, and it makes no mention of frequent rocket attacks against Israeli citizens.

Your question...what about the 1967 border.
Ah, yes, my question, are you or one of your Guest, entities going to give me a straight answer, finally...

My answer is there is no room for a zionism that is in deadly partnership with the USA to slaughter its neighbours.

umm, okay, my question was a simple one, about honoring the 1967 borders of Israel, let's see where this is gonna go...

I believe that those strutting zionist paramiltaries should go back to their homes in New York becaust they are murdering the people whose lands they have stole.

well, I'm not talking about zionist paramiltaries(sic) or New York. I'm talking about Israel. And is it murder when Israelis are killed or only when Palestinians are killed? Oh, there's more here, we're not finished with the preoccupation with zionists...

The problem is zionism and the zionists...... This isn't terribly clear to me. Zionism was the party and principle of re-establishing a Jewish homeland on the ancestral territory of the Jewish people. It doesn't necessarily speak to ways and means, the ways and means were all over the map. Zionism may be taken to mean simply the belief in Israel's right to exist. In this sense even, dare I say it, CarolC is a Zionist. It seems you are trying to make a rhetorical point from the 'high ground' but not really say anything. Let's stick to Israel and the borders I originally asked about. We're not in debating class, this was and is a simple question:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Okay, now we have Guest, Dan's wish list:
1 Stop the state mass murder

What mass murder? The constant homocide bombers?

2 Stop the destruction of both Gaza and the Lebanon

Pursuant to the return of the kidnapped Israelis?

3 Release the prisoners,women,children and the three Israeli soldiers.

Good, there's some meat here, nothing to do with the original question I was trying to get Guest, Dan to answer, if he/she/it even considered Israel to be a viable nation, but it's fair enough, given the circumstances.

4 Withdraw from the occupied territories of Gaza,West Bank and the Golan Heights.

This would almost seem to be an acceptance of 1967 borders and the existence of the state of Israel. Is it? Or is this a demand to return to previous battle lines and continue the war? To give up preparatory to giving out? Seems to me an answer to the original answer in the first place might have allowed this further line to be arrived at in due course. But a simple observation on my part is:
If you don't accept any border to be legitimate, or the State Of Israel to be legitimate, why should Israel accept 'any' such demand?

5 Full right of return for all the Palestinian refugees and their children whose lands and homes have been dispossed.

This is, as is your above point, down the line. If you wish that Israel didn't exist and want to establish your own 'dismemberment' plan, that will be just what it is, your own, and a plan, nothing more.

6 Full civil and human and religious rights for all in a democratic Palestine.

Well, we've never had a democratic Palestine, we've never had a Democratic Egypt, we've never had a Democratic Jordan, but hey, Lebanon's trying... Let's see a few Democratic countries out there beside, oh, wait, there is a democratic country out there. It has civil and human and religious rights for all. It's called 'Israel'. Hey, Guest, Dan, check your map, I'm sure you can find it, it's pretty small but hey, maybe it's on 'Mapquest'!

The above is not a utopian solution it is the only alternative to the Long War stretching out into the next century being envisaged and planned for by both the zionists leading Israel and their American neo con allies.
Their way is still all ab
out oil and strategic power...but another world is possible...and on the evidence we have seen in Gaza and the Lebanon..absolutely essential.
dan

Okay, Guest, Dan you put yourself rhetorically on the map, but I'd like a simple human yea or nay, up or down, yes or no so my limited brain can absorb the truth of your remarks, not the emotional ten ton blob of lard. Here we, go, for the marbles:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:15 PM

In case you don't understand Robomatic's question, here is a picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:18 PM

bb - On July 19th, I asked you, "bb - Your article was from 2004. So what was the verdict?"

Until you're able to answer that I'm not going to bother to read even one more of your lengthy cut and paste jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:35 AM

reply to robomatic
    ISRAEL A DEMOCRATIC STATE....DREAM ON!!!
1 It is a hijack state founded on a whole land stolen from its indiginous population....the people of Palestine...who understandably would like it returned to them.

2 It is a declared reigious state but its non Jewish population suffers from a raft of higly discriminatory laws.

3 Israel itself is opposed by many Jewish people who believe to be either profane or a brutal .

4 Israel is also an expansionist state and higly aggressive to surrounding countries having invaded Egypt,Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon .It has twice destroyed the Lebanon.

6 The situation on the illegally occupied West Bank and in Gaza almost defies belief with attacks,brutality,and state terror tactics commonplace.

7 The Palestinians in the above areas have no democratic rights....they are beaten,murdered and imprisoned by the state with impunity. Almost all Palestinian males have ,at one time or another ,been jailed by the Israel.For them Israel is a vicious and thuggish police state.
Israel regularly flouts intenational laws and rulings like the Geneva Convention and the UN RESOLUTIONS [242 springs to mind].

8 Israel continues to steal water from Palestinian farmers on an industrial scale.It has denied Palestinian farmers access to the river Jordan and other water supplies and steals their land for the dozens of illegal paramilitary settlements it has planted on the West Bank in defiance of International Law.

9 Israel regularly imprisons without trial and kidnaps from the occupied territories.Some 9000 are currently being held including women and children....the ones that the Palestinian fighters want to swap for the captured soldier.

10 Israel also tortures and illtreats its Palestinian prisoners on a regular basis.Read the Amnesty Reports and Human Rights reports.

11 Israel is a terrorist state which is currently waging indiscriminate war on the civilian population of The Lebanon..it has killed or maimed hundreds in the past few weeks alone...it has flattened neighbourhoods,houses and hospitals.No democratic rights for its victims there only the bomb and the missile.

12 There will be no democracy in Israel until the Palestinian people get justice. Zionism with its Imperial backer is taking the whole region down a path to war without end .

13 Another world is possible and essential.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM

That doesn't answer Robo's question.

Robo: Ya shoulda gone into dentistry.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:30 AM

Guest, Dan

I think you get your remarks off of a box top of bitters.

That was not an answer, it was barely a reply.

So, if you deny Israel a right to exist, as you apparently do, you've got nothing to offer. There is no reason Israel should respond. You offer only force and opprobrium.

And your 'reply' was unbalanced, inaccurate, and just plain wrong.

I'll keep asking, though, in whatever guise you choose to renew yourself in.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM

to robomatic and peace,

As I write Israel is busy slaughtering civilian populations of two lands...both outside its borders.It is killing as a matter of state policy without discrimination men,women children and the elderly.
It is a terrorist state ,practicing terror with its bombs and missiles and founded on the stealing of land and cities which it did not own.

The Zionists and militarists are heading deep into a moral ,political,geographical and military quagmire . It would do well to halt its attacks now and resolve the problem of the Palestinians with good faith ...instead they are likely to continue with their onslaught and the issues are likely to fester on for years without resolution.

In the meantime I hope Israel's leadership face war crimes charges.
Mass murder is still a crime and those leaders are up to their necks in blood and gore.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:07 AM

1967 borders or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM

Poor peace
they made a desert and called it peace.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:23 AM

Poor Lebanon. Poor Gaza. Poor Israel. But Clagacus, you have yet to answer the question. Please do so or send Walt. Kiss, kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:35 AM

"Siniora criticizes Hezbollah for the first time

By Yoav Stern

Lebanon?s prime minister, Fuad Siniora, yesterday lashed out at Hezbollah for the first time since the fighting in Lebanon began.

In an interview published in the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Siniora said that Hezbollah ?is maintaining a state within a state? and that the international community must help disarm the organization.

This was the first time Siniora has come out clearly against Hezbollah. His official position until now has been that disarming Hezbollah is a matter for discussion among Lebanon?s political parties.

In the interview, Siniora also accused Hezbollah of taking orders from Syria and Iran. ?It is not a secret that Hezbollah operates according to the political agenda of Tehran and Damascus,? he said, adding an appeal to the international community to help Lebanon obtain a cease-fire."

from

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741125.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:43 AM

"Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel probably war crimes: Human Rights Watch"

Speaking of war crimes, seems there might be enough to go around and Hezbollah--the people you seem so willing to excuse (if not aid)--is in for its share, too.

For Danny Boy . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:02 AM

CarolC:
Without going into the validity of the web article you pasted a few messages back, even by its timing the "Palestinians" were digging their way across the border at the same time as the supposed Israeli apprehension of wanted terrorists. So it could hardly be said to be a 'response' to the alleged Israeli action.

And how you and your article gloss over the killing of two of the soldiers before the third wounded one was captured!

This is, of course, small beer, since you must certainly go back to 'the last' border outrage, and someone will find one before that, ad infinitum, but it 'proves' nothing and does not legitimize the actions of either Hamas or Hizbollah.

Just as others on this thread (not you) can do nothing but shriek against anything Israeli as the epitome of evil, but do not accept Israel in the first place, while this thread appears to go nowhere, it actually highlights the true difficulty of making peace when the opponent can't be recognized.

A co-worker a few years ago was in a traffic accident in one of the Arab countries. He found out he was pretty much automatically at fault, because by the logic of the court, if he, a foreigner, hadn't been there in the first place, there would have been no accident!

This seems to be both Guest,Walt, and Guest,Dan 's problem to begin with. Never mind that none of the Arab countries are remotely democratic, never mind that Nasser was a violater of human rights and a user of poison gas, just as Saddam Hussein, against fellow Muslims, never mind that Syria under the current leader's father once executed an entire town for being a hotbed of fundamentalist Islamic rebellion. That was all in the family. Israel can never be family. Jews cannot live in Muslim countries as equals, nor Christians. These double standards make it okay for me to argue with you, but an act of pure hypocrisy for you to argue with me (so to speak). So Guest,Walt, and/or Guest,Dan can spought a range of accusations but can't be troubled to answer a simple question, because to engage with logic is beneath him/her/it, and a perceived act of weakness.

Well, I perceive the inability to engage as an act of weakness. To blindly lash out at anyone who disagrees with one as a racist is an act of weakness, too, particularly when not adequately backed up with fact and neglecting that main contenders in these dramas are of the same race. I believe, however, that there is plenty of bigotry to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:03 AM

But amongst all the trash, there is yet hope:

'Features
One bowl serves many
By Rachel Shabi

Tuesday 16 May 2006, 5:59 Makka Time, 2:59 GMT   

Israeli and Palestinian artists have joined forces to send a message of reconciliation.

Their exhibition, which opened on Saturday, drew more than 2,500 people to at the Museum of Israeli Art, Ramat Gan, in suburban Tel Aviv.

Offering Reconciliation showcases the work of more than 130 Israeli and Palestinian artists, who took part in the project for the Bereaved Families Forum for Peace, Reconciliation and Tolerance.

The group hopes to spread its message to a wider audience through art.

"To reach a different people, you need different mediums," says Aziz Abu Sarah, one of the forum directors. "Even people who disagree with our message were able to come to the exhibition and see what we are doing."

The exhibition features artists such as Menashe Kadishman, Dani Karavan and Mohammad Said Kalash alongside emerging talents.'

from

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/78593CAF-9021-447E-AC5C-A64C96B356F4.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:18 AM

"As I write Israel is busy slaughtering civilian populations of two lands"

BTW, statements like this are pure crap. If Israel was meaning to 'slaughter' civilians, the death toll would not stand at 300. It would stand at 30,000. Get a grip, Danny. (London weather must be getting to you.) -;)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:30 AM

Peace, in the article you linked, Siniora accused Israel of "opening the gates of hell and madness" on Lebanon."

Wiki said, "With regards to Hezbollah, Siniora has said that "The government considers the resistance a natural and honest expression of the Lebanese people's national rights to liberate their land and defend their honour against Israeli aggression and threats". "

So now he's pointing the finger at Syria and Iran for supporting Hezbollah?

Sounds to me like this guy isn't at all sure what he believes.

At least he has enough sense to ask for international help in ending this crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:39 AM

True to that.

And the sooner the international 'community' gets in there, the better. If the war lasts another two weeks--and that is what's being projected now--(while Israel and Hezbollah go at each other), I'd expect another 500 (minimum) civilians to be killed. I had the irrational hope that it would end before the weekend. However, the Arab world seems not to have been able to bring any pressure to bear on Hezbollah, and neither has anyone made a deal Israel can't refuse.

However, the Israeli ground incursion to 'search and destroy' Hezbollah rocket depots and enforced positions is not going to be quick and easy. However, it does mean that until there is hard intelligence regarding places in which Hezbollah keeps materiel, it at least means that there will be fewer attacks by air. Neither side is going to quit until either Israel has crippled Hezbollah or ground to a halt because to support the deeper incursion would require the commitment of even more ground troops.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:44 AM

BTW, the United Nations is a bloody joke. What a useless fu#kin' organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:53 AM

And the following is from one of the more 'important' articles I have read to date (as it pertains to the military side of things):

"Of all of Israel's wars since 1948, this was the one for which Israel was most prepared," said Steinberg. ``In a sense, the preparation began in May 2000, immediately after the Israeli withdrawal, when it became clear the international community was not going to prevent Hezbollah from stockpiling missiles and attacking Israel."

That snip is not meant to inflame matters on this thread. But it is meant to provide a clearer picture to do with Israel's resolve. In the Israeli leadership's collective mind, this is as real as it gets. The complete article is here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:52 AM

"Until you're able to answer that I'm not going to bother to read even one more of your lengthy cut and paste jobs. "

Dianavan,

Until YOU can give that ONE example of the Palestinians bringing to TRIAL any of their terrorists, I will have to assume you are a bigoted, racist individual with no interest in even discussing facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:10 AM

I guess this makes the random bombardment of civilians ok...

"(CNN) -- Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah apologized for an attack that killed two Israeli Arab children in northern Israel, saying the youngsters were "martyrs for Palestine."

In a Thursday interview with Arabic-language news network Al-Jazeera, Nasrallah accepted responsibility for the Wednesday attack, while conceding that an apology to the family was not sufficient.

"To the family that was hit in Nazareth -- on my behalf and my brothers', I apologize to this family," he said.

"Some events like that happen. At any event, those who were killed in Nazareth, we consider them martyrs for Palestine and martyrs for the nation. I pay my condolences to them.""

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/nasrallah.interview/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:19 AM

btw, from the day before...

"JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A Hezbollah rocket strike hit the Israeli town of Nazareth on Wednesday, killing two children, Israeli police said.

While Hezbollah rockets have hit Nazareth in recent days, it is the furthest south that Israeli casualties have been reported.

Israeli ambulance services said 12 others suffered minor injuries.

The attack happened sometime between 4 and 5 p.m. (9-10 a.m. ET).

Very few Jewish people live in Nazareth, which is populated with Muslims and Christians. (Posted 10:28 a.m.)"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:29 AM

Aerospace Industries Organization 610 mm Zelzal 2 heavy artillery rocket system

Development/Description
The Zelzal 2 heavy artillery rocket is launched from a single rail launcher and is spin stablised in flight by small rocket motor nozzles located just behind the nose-mounted HE warhead and electromechanical fuzing section. All available details are given in the accompanying table. This rocket is unguided.

Like all other Iranian rockets the 610 mm Zelzal 2 heavy artillery rocket system is produced by the Aerospace Industries Organization, Shahid Bagheri Industries facility.

Specifications
Calibre: 610 mm
Weight:
(complete round) 3,545 kg
(warhead) 600 kg
Length: 8.46 m
Warhead: HE with electromechanical-type fuzing system
Max range: 200,000 m


Status
In production. In service with Iranian Army. Offered for export. There are no known exports of this rocket system.

Manufacturer
Aerospace Industries Organization, Shahid Bagheri Industries.

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/misc/jaa_zelzal2_010426.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:16 AM

Peace
The Palestinians will eventually decide on the status of the 1967 border.Personally I believe that Zionist Israel being such a highly aggessive,thuggish and racist state has no future and that the Zionist core of the state will either have to leave [go back to the USA] or dramatically change its way from war to at least a willingness to get along with others instead of reaching for the uzi .
Israel ,having one of the most powerful armies in the world is nowhere near doing a deal to give social and democratic justice to the Palestinians which is why I believe the following could go some way to stepping towards peace_

1 Immediate cessation of all military attacks on Gaza and the Lebanon.

2 The release of all Palestinian prisoners starting with women,children and those long term prisoners whose detention is simply an act of revenge.The release of Israeli prisoners.

3 The dismantling of all Zionist colonies in the West Bank and the withdrawal of Israaeli forces from that area.

4 The ending of the strangling of Gaza which must have control of its international borders.

5 The non militarisation of Jesrusalem and the ending of illegal Isreali settlements in and around the city.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:29 AM

Guest,Dan:

You continue the practise of not speaking 'to' anyone nor answering specific questions nor engaging anyone. You continue to spout propaganda unrelated to the issues people are discussing around you. You continue to offer nothing.

I think that is your actual message.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM

Hezbollah is a Lebanese umbrella organization of radical Islamic Shiite groups and organizations. It opposes the West, seeks to create a Muslim fundamentalist state modeled on Iran, and is a bitter foe of Israel. Hezbollah, whose name means "party of God," is a terrorist group believed responsible for nearly 200 attacks since 1982 that have killed more than 800 people.

Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s;
the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;
the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane?s pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;
and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina - the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five).
In addition, Hezbollah is sponsored, funded and armed by Iran and Syria who use the organization as a proxy to fight Israel and to destabilize the region. Hezbollah is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US State Department.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:29 PM

Hezbollah came into being as a reponse the the Israeli invasion of the Lebanon in 1982.That invasion pulverised the country and left tens of thousands of civilians dead or injured.

It is widely reported as conducting its own resistance actions against the Israeli from inside the Lebanese borders.

Of course for 18 years it slugged it out with Israel and was widely given the credit for Israel's military withdrawal from southern Lebanon three years ago.

Hezbollah is a mainly shiite organisation while Hamas in Palestine is sunni.What attracts support for both organisations is a willingness to stand up to the mighty Israeli war machine.

The real terrorist group in all this is Israel.It has waged endless war with civilians for decades and sad to say shows no path of changing its policies of attacking civilians be they in Gaza,the West Bank or the Lebanon.
Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:35 PM

In June 1978, Prime Minister Begin, under intense American pressure, withdrew Israel's Litani River Operation forces from southern Lebanon. They were replaced by UNIFIL, a UN force to restore peace and help the Lebanonese government re-establish its authority, as authorized by UN Resolution 425. The withdrawal of Israeli troops without having removed the PLO from its bases in southern Lebanon became a major embarrassment to the Begin government, maintaining pressure for Israel to return. UNIFIL was unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms. Cross-border conflict between Israel and the various forces in Southern Lebanon continued at differing levels of intensity after 1978. Civilians on both sides, and UNIFIL peacekeepers, were killed as the fighting ebbed and flowed. Israel increased its support of the Lebanese Christian Militia in the south, under Major Saad Haddad, who regularly fought armed PLO fighters but also caused casualties among non-combatants. The US government during the Carter administration (1976-1980) had several times joined in UN condemnations of Israeli raids and reprisals in South Lebanon, always condemning simultaneously PLO terrorist cross-border activities (generally not condemned by the UN).

In July of 1981 Lebanese-American Philip Habib was sent by the Reagan Administration to negotiate a more lasting cease-fire between Lebanon and Israel. On July 24 Habib announced agreement that all hostile military action between Lebanese and Israeli territory in either direction would cease. For the next eleven months the cease-fire was in effect as a formality, but the PLO repeatedly violated the agreement. Israel charged that the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twenty­nine Israelis died and more than 300 were injured in the attacks. In April 1982, after a landmine killed an Israeli officer, the rocket attacks and air strikes recommenced.

Israeli strikes and commando raids were unable to stem the growth of the PLO army which built camps, trained thousands of fighters, and stockpiled arms in south Lebanon. The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of Israeli residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the PLO terrorists.

The final provocation occurred in June 3, 1982 when a Palestinian terrorist group led by Abu Nidal attempted to assassinate Israel's Ambassador to Great Britain, Shlomo Argov. The IDF subsequently bombed PLO bases and ammunition dumps in Beirut and attacked other targets in Lebanon on June 4-5, 1982. The PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. It was the PLO shelling, and not directly the Argov shooting as is sometimes assumed, that triggered the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

On June 6, 1982, under the direction of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel invaded Lebanon with a massive force, called Operation Peace for the Galilee, driving all the way to Beirut and putting the PLO and residents, as well as the Lebanese civilian population of that city, under siege. Israel justified its breech of the Habib cease-fire by citing the attempted assassination of the Israeli ambassador in London and a build-up of PLO armaments in South Lebanon. Israel was also concerned by increasing Syrian involvement in the Lebanese civil war and wanted to forestall a hostile, Syrian-backed government developing in Lebanon.

Former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said of the operation:

No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids. (Washington Post, June 16, 1982)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:24 PM

Good to see that old state terrorist Henry Kissinger being quoted by Guest in the above posting.
He was the politician who is still up to his neck in the blood of thousands of Chileans because of his complicity in the overthrow of the elected socialist govt of Dr Allende on the 11th Sept 1973 [the other 9-11 ].That coup was led by Kissinger's crony General Pinochet who had his immunity sripped away last week by a chilean court.
Kissinger was also one of the architects of the Vietnam war in which over one million poor Vietnamese were slaughtered by American military forces in saturation bombing raids, free fire zones and massacres such as My Lai.
I dont think that Kissinger is a credible source for anyone involved with talking about democracy and terrorism on Mudcat.
That old killer should be in the dock at the Hague.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM

bb - You cited the example of how Israel hold soldiers responsible for their actions but did not provide a source saying that any of them had been convicted. Its up to you to answer my question. You are trying to answer a question with a question.

In any event, I am not trying to say that terrorists are any better than Israeli soldiers. What I am trying to say is that the Lebanese people should not be punished for terrorist activities. Terrorists need to be dealt with through investigative police work not through bombing the hell out of a country of innocents.

"Lebanon has taken other counterterrorism measures in 2003, primarily directed against Sunni extremists, including those affiliated with al-Qaida. For instance:

In May, a military tribunal convicted eight individuals of attempting to establish an al-Qaida cell in Lebanon.

In July, Lebanese security forces began a series of arrests in connection with the bombing in April of a McDonald's, part of a series of bombings of Western food outlets during 2002-03.

In September, military tribunals commenced hearing the cases of more than 40 individuals charged with planning or executing the series of restaurant attacks and planning to assassinate the US Ambassador to Lebanon and bomb the US Embassy in Beirut.

In October, the Lebanese Government arrested three men and indicted 18 others in absentia on charges of preparing to carry out terrorist attacks and forging documents and passports.

The Lebanese Government continued to cooperate with US officials in the investigation of the murder in November 2002 of a US citizen in Sidon.

In December, Lebanese forces personnel cooperated with US Embassy security when a Lebanese man approached the Embassy carrying a bag containing TNT, nitroglycerin, and a detonator.

In late December, a military tribunal sentenced 25 members of a terrorist group accused of targeting US official and commercial targets to prison terms ranging from six months to life.
Lebanon is a party to 10 of the 12 international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism."

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2003/31638.htm

You seem very offended by the use of the term martyr. Does the term, hero, also offend you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:42 PM

dianavan,

And yet, with all those examples, Lebenon was unable to implement the UN resolution to get Hezbollah OUT OF THE BORDER REGION.

Israel has been dropping leaflets telling civilians to leave the area where Hezbollah has been launching area bombardment, anti-civilian missles from: DOU YOU HAVE A PROBLEM with Israel trying to destroy those (illegal) weapons? If not, since civilians have been warned, there should be no problem with the Israeli incursion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

Lebanese people should not be punished for terrorist activities. Terrorists need to be dealt with through investigative police work not through bombing the hell out of a country of innocents.

Unfortunately, the Lebanese "police" have made no effort -- none at all, zero on a scale of one to ten -- to deal with the terrorists that are operating on their territory. And rather than deal with the terrorists on any level, they have legitimized them by bringing them to the Cabinet table.

There is not one person in all of Israel who doesn't wish that the Lebanese "police" had acted against the terrorists over the past six years.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

Guest, Jon:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:49 PM

dianavan,

You said:

"Please show me some evidence that the Israeli soldiers involved in these crimes have faced disciplinary prodedures or that the incidents were even investigated by the Israeli military or the government. "


I gave you an example, found in less than 5 minutes search. I did not get details on the trial- and do not put myself in higher judgement over those that had FACTS on the matter. I am sure there are crimes being committed on both sides- but I have far more faith that the Israelis will attempt to bring criminals to justice than that the Palestininians will even acknowledge that they have done wrong.


If you want me to find more examples, let me know- and try to find some that support YOUR viewpoint, since I have challanged that- it is up to YOU to justify your statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

to Robomatic
I support a free Palestine , free from attack by Zionists.The Zionists have been bullying the neighbourhood for many decades...and have been a disaster for all the peoples of Palestine. I think that there is a dispute between a 2 state or one state solution .Under the present Israeli leadership there is no solution only never ending war,invasion and imperialism.
Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:01 PM

You guys really like to use the term 'slaughter'. If the Israelis were not doing the best to limit civilian casualties the death toll would be in the tens of thousands by now, not 'just' in the hundreds. Until such time as you understand that this war will continue until the price becomes too high (in Israeli terms), you will not have a grasp on how to end it.

Israel is going to inflict as much damage on Hezbollah (human and materiel) as it can before the cease fire is brought about by the international community. There is no such thing as a 'surgical strike'. That is fancy talk for 'we will get the bombs on target, and if our enemy happens to live in a place that is surrounded by a relatively innocent civilian population and the bomb or rocket misses, then some others are going to get killed in the process of us nailing the ones we want'.

Israel will NOT allow Hezbollah to continue firing rockets into its country. That's that. The Israelis foresaw this scenario years ago. The Lebanese army has approximately 70,000 soldiers. They have chosen to ignore the UN for two years. They have made no effort to displace the Hezbollah fighters that patrolled the border and started this particular war. Hezbollah (an organization that is thought to have 2000 'fighters', mostly trained by Iran and Syria) should not have its own 'army' in the sovereign country of Lebanon. This bullshit about Hezbollah being the result of Israels occupation of Lebanon for so many years as though that gives Hezbollah special rights in Lebanon is just that. It's bullshit.

'Real politic' is what is on the table right now. Israel will continue to wage war and do as much damage to Hezbollah as it can. The Israelis will search and destroy. The damage to bridges, the airport, etc., is the result of an unconcerned government in Lebanon allowing the import of missiles from Iran through Syria. The bridges are down to prevent delivery of anymore.

Tell me this? Where the hell did over 10,000 rockets come from? And tell me this. The rockets are for shit as accurate weapons, so when they are fired even the people who fire them have only a vague idea of where they will land--and you think this was about 'self defense' on Hezbollah's part? Sheeeeeit. Save that one.

If Hezbollah had the brains G-d gave a turnip, they would have pulled back and ceased firing rockets into Israel. But maybe they have the brains that G-d gave Niccolo Machiavelli, and maybe to help its own position in Lebanon, a position that will be established on the dead bodies of civilians in that country, Hezbollah can be perceived by people as "those who fought the Israelis", even though it was also they who started the war. There is lotsa room for lotsa spin in the turmoil of war and its aftermath.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:05 PM

Peace,

Your post of 2:01 is as good an analysis of this unfortunate situation as I've read anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:09 PM

Too true, Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:16 PM

Jon,

Number one - Thanks for answering me at all.

However, speaking as a Palestinian myself, you don't speak for me.

How about answering the question? Are there legal borders defining Israel? If so, what are they? If they exist and you acknowledge them, is Israel entitled to defend them? If not, why not?

And you get bonus points for not using the word Zionist in your response. We all know where you're coming from with that old refrain.

And yes, Bruce, well done above.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM

bb - What statement would you like me to justify?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

C. Ham says, "Unfortunately, the Lebanese "police" have made no effort -- none at all, zero on a scale of one to ten -- to deal with the terrorists that are operating on their territory. And rather than deal with the terrorists on any level, they have legitimized them by bringing them to the Cabinet table."

Please read my post of 1:36.

Bush thought if he could push Syria out of Lebanon, that would be the end of it. The new government has hardly had a chance. What does Israel and the U.S. want, another puppet government or a democracy? Don't forget, without the social services provided by Hezbollah, the Lebanese people would be in dire straights. They see Hezbollah as a provider and protector. Who else will provide and protect the people of Lebanon? Israel had their chance and all they did was kill, maim and destroy.

If Israel had their heada on straight, they would be exchanging education, computers and jobs for weapons. Instead, it turns a blind eye to the number of assault rifles, etc. being sold to Hezbollah by American, Israeli and Russian arms dealers. Those that make a living off war (the arms dealers) are the ones who should be tried and convicted.

Whether you are an Israeli, Palestinian, Iraqi, or Lebanese and regardless of your politics or religion, there are people who will exploit all of you for profit. Guns and ammunition fuel these wars and there are plenty that walk away laughing with their pockets filled with gold.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

dianavan,

YOU state:
"Yes, but the Israeli children were not intentionally targetted. The Palestinian children have been. "


I brought up the bar mitsvah and ice creams parlor bombings, and hear nothing from you: If a terrorist blows up children, THAT IS a deliberate targeting of children. When the Palestinian children are used to attack armed soldiers, and act as memebers of an armed force, THAT is against International law, and you do not hold the Palestinians responsible. What would a Palestinian have to do for you to condemn their action?

Roll an old man in a wheelchair off a cruise ship? ( already done)
Randomly launch area bombardment rockets into a civilian area? (being done)
Blow up a children's party? (done)
Shoot a Palestinian child to make it look like the Israelis did it? ( done, by the earlier posting)
Torture and kill a 19 year old civilian for the crime of being Jewish? ( done)
Violate international law by using civilian areas as a military base? ( still in progress)
Claim that the children they murder with their attacks on civilian areas are "martyrs for Palestine and martyrs for the nation"? (done)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:48 PM

dianavan,

Please read my post of 1:42.


C. Ham is correct- the Lebonese have made NO effort to implement the UN resolution, or even interrupt the flow of (est 13,000) rockets from Iran since 2001. If you think that this indicates a desire for a peaceful co-existance with Israel, YOU realll need to work on your people skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,sick of it all
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM

Funny, Gilad Shalit doesn't look much like the Archduke Ferdinand.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:24 PM

I don't speak for anyone but myself. But it is increasingly clear to millions across the world that Israel is pounding the Palestinians into the ground and has been doing so for many,many years.
It is also quite clear to me and many others that its policy in the Lebanon of waging war against civilians is a war crime .
The Zionists on Mudat have lost the plot but mass murder is still a crime against humanity and if a courtroom is good enough for the Serbian killers it is surely good for the Israeli war leaders although I wont be holding my breath.
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:40 PM

bb, you say, "If a terrorist blows up children, THAT IS a deliberate targeting of children."

I have already said that I do not believe that to be deliberate targetting of children. I believe it is deliberate targetting of civilians.

Deliberate targetting of children would, in my opinion, be a single bullet intentionally targetting a child.

Terrorism is definitely organized but it is not done by the government of Lebanon.

Waging war against the civilian population of Lebanon is a crime against humanity. What is happening to the Palestinians is mass murder.

Its time for Israel to show us that, as a government, they are capable of restraint and diplomacy. I expect more of a government than I do a group of terrorists. Committing war crimes is no way to fight terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

The defence ministers of Iran and Syria signed an agreement for military co-operation last month, although they declined to give specifics about what it involved. Iran's president has also warned of a "fierce response" if Israel attacks Syria.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:59 PM

Keriste, jon, get a new script. You've had the same post about ten times. Have mercy and change the tune just a bit.

Zionists on Mudcat? LOL. OK, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:04 PM

Have mercy you say??
We ve seen out there in Gaza and the Lebanon the quality of the mercy being displayed by the Israeli military.
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

You have seen nothing, wanker. You are a dipshit apologist for Hezbollah. FO. I mean that in the nicest possible way. You are proof that anal sphincters can type. Guinness Records needs you. I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:28 PM

Guest,Jon:

If you do not even give to Israel a right to exist, you have no complaint, because you were not willing to engage the problem before it became a bigger problem. This is the problem in Lebanon. The Lebanese government could not control, and cannot control Hezbollah. Hezbollah chose to initiate an attack against Israel on its own territory. The great majority of the world gives Israel a right to respond even if there is considerable disagreement about the quality of the response, which has been addressed by Peace above.

All you do is winge without anything positive to offer. In other words, you simply regret that there are Jews on the property. You regret that they can't just be 'handled' without fear of retribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:30 PM

DCLXVI - Hey Guest, Jon: I said I'd give ye props if you posted without using the word "Zionist" and by gum you made it little guy!

Congrats!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:02 PM

Had to do that, did you? We are in deep deep doodoo now, Robomatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM

LOL. Could not resist, Bruce. At least you get to be 'neighbor' of the BEAST!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:34 AM

First intelligent thing you've said so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:52 AM

You Zionist guys really dont like the word "zionist" to be used do you?That puzzles me somewhat! But there again you can barely use the words "Palestine" or "Palestinians".

For the Israeli soldiers to be released there will have to be a deal somewhere down the line or are they such an embarrassment to the Israeli army that the Israeli High Command woud prefer to see them dead rather than imprisoned.

Sharon did a prisoner exchange a few years ago but the Israeli top brass does not seem interested this time. That particular prisoner walked free and Sharon survived politically.

The Israeli top guys however, would far rather destroy The Lebanon and pulverise Hezbollah.However,in the process of smashing up the Lebanon they have made enemies of hundreds of thousands of people...they have even bombed christian areas of Beirut which tells me that Israel's war machine is a lot dumber than it thinks.Every time Israel goes to war it gets harder for them.Israel has lost the pyschological advantageover its opponents.
Despite the ravings of the Zionists Israeli policies are leading the peoples of the Middle East into a dead end ..all that is in store under the Zionists are wars without end,carnage and chaos and yet more bloody oppression for the Palestinians , Lebanese and others.
Under Zionism the blood never dries...
jon
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:15 AM

Stop drinking so early in the morning. It's not good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:24 AM

The campaign of terror that Israel is waging against the Palestinians in Gaza and against the Lebanese is frighteningly similar to the terror that was used to create the Israeli state in 1948.The Palestinians called the creation of Israel the Nakbha- the catastrophe.

The Zionists who created Israel used terror against individual villages or areas to create a wider climate of fear or panic.On the 9th April 1948 a Zionist militia led by Menachim Begin -who went on to become Prime Minister of Israel -entered the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin .Villagers were given 15 minutes to leave their homes and then more than 200 Palestinians were murdered.

Within the next few months Zionist militias drove out 750000 Palestinians.

Dropping leaflets on Lebanese towns warning them of the consequences of associating with Hezbollah is reminiscent of the propoganda used
alongside the direct violence to instill fear in the Palestinians during the Nakbha.

Israel was founded on the expulsion of Palestinians.There will be no peace in the Middle East until there is justice for Palestinians and the other victims of Israel's terror.

from Socialist Worker
22 nd July 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

Thanks for sharing. What's yer point?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM

Hugo: The article you posted has this at the bottom of the page. Please have some respect for the request.

© Copyright Socialist Worker (unless otherwise stated). You may republish if you include an active link to the original and leave this notice in place.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:58 AM

The point is there will be no peace in the Middle Est while the Palestinians are being denied justice and the terrible vents of the past few weeks have their roots in the formation of Israel on an entire land stolen at gunpoint from the Palestinians.
Hugo
ps I acknowleged the source of the extract from Socialist Worker and the date .If you want to read further go to its website www.socialist worker.com

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:13 AM

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9280

The site you gave (www.socialist worker.com) links to a few communist sites. I will not help you link to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:17 AM

PS,

Other than this thing about Israel, you and I have more in common than you'll ever know.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:10 AM

A KIND OF DEMOCRACY!
A dream among the neo-cons in the USA was that democratic revolutions would sweep the Middle East removing its enemies in Syria and Iran -but not its friends in Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

But then 23 Hizbollah MP s were elected in The Lebanon allowing it 2 cabinet seats and free elections returned a Hamas govt in the Palestinian territories.That could not be allowed.

Israel and the USA converged.Both wanted the destruction of Hamas and Hezbollah ,both have Syria and Iran in their sights.

That takes precedence over the survival of a democratically elected govt in Beirut and over any pretensions that Palestinians have any control over their lives.
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:23 AM

The New York Times has reported that the Bush administration is rushing the delivery of high precision bombs to Israel for use in the Lebanon. It is a little bit like throwing petrol onto the fire .
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:35 AM

The village of Izbet At Tabib on the occupied West Bank is protesting at plans to demolish half its houses to make way for the apartheid wall being built by Israeli occupation forces.

The mass open air meeting in the village attended by hundreds of viagers and others from the district was attacked by Israeli jeeps who eventually withdrew after a confrontation with youths from the village.

Another 21 villages in the area are due to be demolished to make way for the wall.Most of the resients of Isbet At Tabib are farmers and shepherds and they face losing access to their lands and the eventual loss of he land itself.
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:07 AM

Guest, Hugo:
Guest, James:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:52 AM

RESPONSE TO ROBOMATIC
1 Stop the bombing of the Lebanon.....the mass murder of civilians,children ,women and innocent is still an international war crime

2 Stop the invasion of Gaza.......its children are half starved and terrified by the indiscriminate shelling,the flattening of apartments and the bulldozing of streets etc.

3 Release the prisoners......there are 9000 in Israeli jails....including women and children.Hezbollah have said that they will release their prisoners in exchange.

4 Withdraw from the illegally ocupied territory of the West Bank.

Free Palestine!!.

Israel cannot impose its will on the people of the region by bombing,burning,shooting and imprisoning.It won't work any longer!.Even with the military assistance of the USA it cannot impose its will.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ozjake
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:54 AM

10000 Australians ,many of Lebanese descent, marched through Sidney today to call for an end to the invasion of the Lebanon and a return to peace.Many carried Lebanese and Australian flags.The invasion was denounced strongly.
Jake

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:13 PM

The Israeli attacks on Hizbollah military facilities are having an effect, with rocket Hizbollah launches down by more than half (to about 40 today). Israel has several thousand troops in southern Lebanon, and they are going after the Hizbollah rocket launching teams. The Israelis have found that their tactic of dropping leaflets warning civilians to stay away from residential areas used to store weapons, and especially rockets, has worked. Despite Hizbollah efforts to force civilians to stay in their homes, the vast majority of civilians fled villages and neighborhoods where it was known Hizbollah was storing rockets. Thus most of the Israeli bombs destroyed rockets and housing, not people. The UN has not accepted this, but has bowed to media spin and pro-Hizbollah propaganda, to get behind the terrorists, and accuse Israel of using "disproportionate force." The UN is demanding a cease fire (which, to Hizbollah, is interpreted as a pause before the next round of attacks on Israel). Despite frequent UN rhetoric about the benefits of democracy, they appear to have an imperfect grasp of how it actually works. For example, if a terrorist group were to fire a thousand rockets into any democracy, the citizens of said democracy would demand military action against the attackers, not a cease fire and avoidance of "disproportionate response."

Israel is now moving into the second week of a three week military operation. The first week was mainly a bombing campaign to cripple Hizbollah's ability to easily move men and munitions around, and to destroy Hizbollah facilities, particularly rocket storage sites. The air campaign has hit about 1,200 targets so far, including some 200 rocket storage sites. There have been about a thousand Lebanese casualties, less than one per air strike.

The second week has small groups of ground troops going into southern Lebanon to investigate suspected rocket storage sites. This tactic has uncovered those storage sites Hizbollah was able to build and hide from Israeli air and satellite reconnaissance. So far, about half the Hizbollah stocks of rockets have been destroyed, while about a thousands of the rockets have been fired into Israel. It's currently estimated that Hizbollah had some 14,000 rockets, mostly smaller (122mm) ones.

Hizbollah had also trained several dozen teams of men to get the rockets out of their storage sites and launch them into northern Israel. In the third week of the Israeli military plan, more troops will go into southern Lebanon, and Hizbollah fighters killed or driven out. At that point, Lebanon or the UN can be invited to come in and take charge of the area, with some guarantees (a big sticking point) that Hizbollah will not move back. If that doesn't work, Israel has the option of creating a 30-40 kilometer deep neutral zone in southern Lebanon. Several hundred thousand Lebanese civilians have already fled that zone, and may not be allowed back in until something is done about Hizbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

GUEST, Hugo:

You sound familiar, like you've been visiting before under another name like Jon, or Walt, or Q-Tip or somethin'.

Anyhow, your rhetoric is empty, and you even got one of the points wrong. There are some other points I saw on TV last night on the M'Laughlin Report:

Return the kidnapped Israelis
Stop the rocket attacks on Israel
Lebanon Army to take full control of S. Lebanon

sounds like we got a plan.

Since you haven't answered the question addressed to you, whether or not you respect that an independent nation Israel "is real" I can conclude that you are only interested in distributing your rhetoric and don't have the courage to address the issue, because you can reply yes or no. That would be engaging in a conversation which apparently you don't have the energy or guts to do.

pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

mmmmm!!!
I seem to remember that Israel,having devastated the Lebanon once before back in the early 1880s then created a buffer zone in south Lebanon run by a thuggish crew called the South Lebanese Army....backed up, of course, by the Israelis.The prison it kept in that buffer zone [al khaim was a byword for torture ].

The SLA collapsed about 5 years ago and the Israelis were finally driven out of the Lebanon 18 years after its invasion had been launched.

The buffer zone idea did not work out then and a new buffer zone would still create enormous military and political problems for Israel...and despite moving north the buffer zone would still involve sharing a border withthe Lebanon and presumably Hezbollah.

In the meantime its deliberate and callous destruction of the Lebanon will cause even more people to support the fight against Israel.Its strategy is leading into a brutal dead end.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,RP
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:20 PM

Israel must see the current fighting through to a conclusion that is unambiguously a defeat for Hezbollah and Hamas.

The world's diplomats, always generous with advice for the Israelis, cheered when Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000. They pretended not to notice as Hezbollah poured Iranian-supplied rockets into Lebanon: first a hundred, then a thousand, then ten thousand and even more. None of the world's foreign ministries described Israel's failure to respond to Hezbollah's arming as a disproportionate response to an obvious menace.

The word "disproportionate" re-emerged in recent days as a criticism of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's epiphany: Israel is a country that two terrorist organizations, Hamas and Hezbollah, are dedicated to destroying, and following the advice of diplomats to respond "proportionately" would leave those terrorists free to pursue that goal.

Israel must now deal a blow of such magnitude to those who would destroy it as to leave no doubt that its earlier policy of acquiescence is over. This means precise military action against Hezbollah and its infrastructure in Lebanon and Syria, for as long as it takes and without regard to mindless diplomatic blather about proportionality. For what appears to some to be a disproportionate response to small incursions and kidnappings is, in fact, an entirely appropriate response to the existential struggle in which Israel is now engaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:37 PM

comment on the posting by guest RP

"Israel must now deal a blow of such magnitude to those who would destroy it as to leave no doubt that its earlier policy of acquiescence is over"

Well we know that Israel is the only nuclear armed state in the region with a growing arsenal of nuclear weapons.

It also has one of the most powerful armies in the world with all the sophisticated killimg machines it needs to pulverise its neighbours.

The assertion that the "world's diplomats are somehow soft on Israel is laughable.Israel has been armed to the teeth by the most powerful state on the planet for the past six decades.It is also well supported by Britain which helped Israel to acquire its nuclear weapons capability in the 1960s according to recent press reports in the UK.


Israel is the "model"state of imperialism.Created to police the Middle East and to keep its vast population quiet.It fits neatly into America's plans to control the region's oil reserves and the Suez Canal.

Since it was founded on stolen land it has invaded,bombed and terrorised both its neighbouring states and the Palestinians ,who somehow cling to the belief that they and not the Zionist-come -lately are the rightful owners of land .

Guest RP talks about"PROPORTIONALITY".We have seen the proportionality of the Israel war machine on our television screens during the past few weeks.The mass murder of civilians in Gaza and the Lebanon is a war crime ....we have seen the apartment blocks and cars destroyed,the houses and hospitals bombed and the attacks on the civilian population. And today it has been announced in the US media that Bush is sending precision bombs to further aid Israel attack the Lebanon.

What a carve up! What slaughter! Fee Palestine! Stop the Bombing of the Lebanon!
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

When people are elected to government office, they usually don't get to have their own army. Lebanon already had and has an army. Hezbollah wanted its own. Democracy my ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM

"It is a little bit like throwing petrol onto the fire ."

It is exacytly like throwing petrol onto the fire. It will just make it easier to land the bombs where they are meant to go. Wise thinking, because the bombing is going to continue until Hezbollah is wrecked. I think that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:00 PM

Peace....shouldn't you call yourself "War"?
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

"Why is this Arab-Israeli war different from all other Arab-Israeli wars? Because it's not an Arab-Israeli war. Most of Israel's traditional Arab enemies have checked out of the current conflict. The governments of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia are, to say the least, indifferent to the fate of Hamas and Hezbollah. The Palestine Liberation Organization (Fatah) isn't a player. The prime mover behind the terrorist groups who have started this war is a non-Arab state, Iran, which wasn't involved in any of Israel's previous wars."

Interesting article here for anyone who wishes to look at a bigger picture than "Isreal bad, Hezbollah/Hamas good."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:11 PM

WALT. How the hell are ya? I have missed you sooo much. Glad you're back. I wanted to tell you to get shagged and couldn't find you to do so--tell ya, not ya know. Shit, it is good to see you. Hope you've been keeping well.


Robomatic: I am old and my eyes ain't what they used to be. Would you be so kind as to message me if 'one' of these guys accidentally says anything of worth? Thanks, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:19 PM

hugo, walt:

you guys sound like a couple of eurocommunists put out to pasture. Your definitions have the ancient pong of material dialectics, which was a cover word that communists used to pervert the truth. The Arab world had a big brother in the ol' Soviet Union, which acted in order to foment war and hatred in the Middle East.

you boys just a couple of ol' fashioned partisanskis.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

Don't you love the Guests regards for the facts?   Israel attacking people in the 1880's, Everyone 'Knowing' absolutly that Iran doesn't have nukes, etc, etc, etc.

I'd start on the stuff they really mean, and have repeated a few times, but I have a train to catch on Monday, and I don't think I'll be finished by then...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 04:22 PM

"Despite Hizbollah efforts to force civilians to stay in their homes..." SOURCE PLEASE.

"There have been about a thousand Lebanese casualties, less than one per air strike."

Thats one thousand Lebanese killed in one week.

I'm sure that's very comforting to the families of the victims.

Peace, from the article you linked:

"Better to say that what's under attack is liberal democratic civilization, whose leading representative right now happens to be the United States."

We all know thats a joke!

btw - from your tone, lately, I, too, think you should change your name to War.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM

I won't say what you should change YOUR name to. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:32 PM

"There have been about a thousand Lebanese casualties, less than one per air strike."

Thats one thousand Lebanese killed in one week.

As usual, Dianavan, you've got it wrong.

There have been about 300 Lebanese deaths since Hezbollah started this war. A casualty refers to any kind of injury, from a stubbed toe to death.

Part of the problem is that the Hezbollah heroes, like their Hamas friends, hide within, and launch their rockets and missles from within, the civilian populations.

As Peace has pointed out, if Israel wasn't being as careful as possible to minimize civilian casualties, the death toll would be in the many thousands. Which, btw, puts the big fat lie to CarolC's constant claim of Israeli genocide.

Also, Israel's attempts to minimize civilian casualties is in direct contrast to your Hezbollah and Hamas friends whose specific intent is to kill civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

my earlier posting should have read that Israel devastated the Lebanon once before in the 1980s. Apologies for the typing error.

That was another huge assault on the population...around 20000 were thought to be killed in a sort of bloodlust by the Israeli military which destroyed the capital city Beirut, raining shells,bombs and missiles down on its inhabitants.

The military commander was Ariel Sharon and he was later found to be culpable for the massacres at the Sabra and Shatila refugees camps where despite guarantees of safety right wing fascist murder squads entered the unarmed camps to slaughter and rape .Over 2000 women,children and old people were slain while the perimeters of the camps were maintained by the Israelis who fired flares so that the murder squads could find their victims.One Israeli commander later congratulated the phalange leader for a murder job well done.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

"1982: Refugees massacred in Beirut camps
More than 1,000 people are feared to have been killed during a 24-hour rampage by Lebanese militia in West Beirut.
The Christian Phalangist group are reported to have murdered entire families in cold blood in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila.

The massacre was apparently revenge for the assassination four days ago of the Christian President-elect, Bashir Gemayel.

The Israeli army moved into the area a few hours after Mr Gemayel was murdered, and has been accused of helping the militia during the killing - or at least not intervening to prevent further loss of life."

Note the term, Christian Phalangist group in that article. Stalin did crap the way you do. Select editing, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Stop The War: Si
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:12 PM

THOUSANDS MARCH IN LONDON!
Thousands marched in London today calling for an end to the invasion and destruction of the Lebanon and a halting of the attack on Gaza.

THe march called at short notice was organised by the Stop The War Coalition, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the Muslim Association of Britain.
There were at least 11 other rallies or demonstration across Britain and others across the world including a huge march in Sidney ,Australia.
The theme of all the demonstrations was an end to Israeli aggression in the Middle East and an end to the mass murder of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians.
Si

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM

C. Ham - I stand corrected.

1000 casualties - Hmmm... Must make you proud.

Now its time for you to admit you are wrong about accusing me of being friends with Hamas and Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:21 PM

I wonder who will march to get Hezbollah and Hamas to stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM

The Israeli destruction of the Lebanon has been likened by top White House leader Condileeza Rice as being like "birth pang".

She was one of those who was responsible for "Shock and Awe" which unleashed hundreds of US cruise missiles and thousands of bombs on Iraq so she must know what she is talking about.

For those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of the missiles,bombs and shells raining down on their homes,cars and businesses it must be more like death pangs.

Rice and Bush are both barking! Both are war criminals for their involvement in the attack on the Lebanon and indeed the invasion of Iraq.

US precision bombs are already on their way to Israeli armouries to replenish the rapidly diminishing stocks of Israeli weapons of mass destruction. The murderous hypocrisy of the grisly twosome is shocking!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

"For those unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of the missiles,bombs and shells raining down on their homes,cars and businesses it must be more like death pangs."

That is certainly how the Israelis feel when Hezbollah rockets hit them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:18 PM

Oh Ifor, haven't heard from you in a while. got trired of one of your other aliases?

US precision bombs are already on their way to Israeli armouries to replenish the rapidly diminishing stocks of Israeli weapons of mass destruction

Thanks to the Bush administrion, we all now know a weapon of mass destruction is defined as a Nuclear, Biologial or Chemical weapon. Clever of Isreal to be using these without anyone noticing, and even cleverer of them to be using them so close to their own borders, on land they are presumably going to occupy as part of the Zionist conspiricy...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

Ya need a programme on this thread . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:25 PM

I guess the message I'm getting from you, Dianavan is twofold:

It doesn't matter when Israeli citizens are killed and terrorized, and put at risk, it does matter when Lebanese civilians are killed and terrorized and put at risk.

If the Israelis are fighting the Hezbollah or the Hamas terrorists, they are forbidden to die in quantities too small. In other words, if there is a death disparity, it's the fault of the Israelis for not dying in quantity enough to make parity.

Now possibly I am wrong. But let me put this question to you:

Dianavan:
I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:05 PM

Guest Hugo (and all who think Israel has ruined Lebanon)

Last night I saw a movie entitled "The Kind Woman". It is about a con-man who worms his way into the house of an elderly woman. He and his cohorts make her a prisoner in her own home, sell off her possessions, plan to sell her home, and then kill her. The Palestinean sojourn in Jordan and Lebanon came to mind.

Hugo, if you had ever spoken with Lebanese Christians who immigrated to the USA in the seventies and eighties, you would know what kind of guests the Palestineans really were/are. They set up a de-facto government within southern Lebanon. They set up armed check-points disallowing free movement to native Lebanese. They used the area to attack northern Israel. So I ask you who really devastated Lebanon in the 1980s?

Prior to destabilizing Lebanon, the Palestinean leadership tried to use Jordan for the same purpose, and perhaps try to overthrow King Hussein. He kicked their sorry asses out of the country, in the process killing more Palestineans than Israel has during all its wars since its founding, probably . Does the term Black September jog your memory?

BTW, the con-man in the movie failed; I expect life to imitate art.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:27 PM

robo - you asked, "I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC? "

The answer is no.

I think Jews and Arabs should live together in Palestine and share the holy sites with the whole world. There is absolutely no reason why there has to be a government of Israel or a government of Palestine. There is absolutely no reason they can't live together peacefully and continue their religious practices side by side.   

I think it should be designated as a World Heritage Site.

Anything else is just a power struggle which is waste of time and energy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:59 AM

If you're going to San Francisco be sure to put some flowers in your hair

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:03 AM

Dianavan - I accept your comments (22nd @10:27) as benign, well meaning thoughts. But when you say there is no reason for there to be a government of Israel you are wrong. The world is reverting to where most ethnic groups have their own land, as in the break-up of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia amongst others. Only the Jews could not have their own country in your vision of the world.

Jews, whether you or I or anyone posting here think differently (and I don't) insist they have a place to call there own. A country that is mostly Arab - and that is what you advocate - cannot protect Jews. You may think in absolutes, but if Arabs did not tolerate Jews in the 1920s-40s, when Jews did not control the area. What makes you think they would suddenly be peaceful after 60 years of enmity...sixty years when they could have built a country had they and their Arab bretheren so chosen, instead of trying to destroy Israel. It was not Israel which rejected a two-state solution in 1947/8.

As to making Palestine, or perhaps you mean only Jerusalem and other Holy Sites, into a so-called World Heritage Site, why not make New York such a site; after all, the UN is headquartered there? Why not the city you live in? I'm sure there is something of value there. Why should only Jewish territory be so designated?

Please re-think your solution, dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:34 AM

Jan Egeland,a senior UN official has said that one third of the many Lebanese casualties appear to be children...they have been killed or maimed in their homes or cars or on the streets of their towns and villages.Many have shrapnel wounds to the body.

Around a million Lebanese have now been displace by the bombing and the attack on the Lebanon is not only confined to the south but is taking place right across the country.

The USA is hurrying to send more precision bombs to Israel including 5 tonne laser guided bombs. They will have to arrive soon or the mighty Israeli air force will have run out of targets.

Tens of thousands across the world have marched and demonstrated their opposition to the invasion of the Lebanon and the attack on Gaza. They called for a peaceful alternative to the bombing and the shelling of civilians.

In Tel Aviv some 1000 Jewish and Israeli Arabs marched together for peace and to oppose the war.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:37 AM

"In Tel Aviv some 1000 Jewish and Israeli Arabs marched together for peace and to oppose the war."

Bloody good thing they weren't hit by Hezbollah rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM

Reports from the Lebanon have stated that 8 Canadian citizens have been killed in the bombing together with a Jordanian and an Iraqi and a Sri Lankan .
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:53 AM

In Canada we are aware of that.

PS: I had a crab infestation in the 1960s that was lots like you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM

"Village seized

Meanwhile, an Israeli general says soldiers yesterday took control of hilltop village Maroun al-Ras, which overlooks both sides of the border, where six Israeli commandos have been killed in heavy fighting this week.

The Israeli army has also found the body of a soldier who went missing last week during fighting in south Lebanon.

Israel's Army Radio says Defence Minister Amir Peretz has decided to continue with the current military incursions into southern Lebanon close to the border.

Israeli forces have urged residents of 14 villages in south Lebanon to leave ahead of more air raids."


From the news.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:00 AM

John from the Sunshine Coast "...most ethnic groups have their own land."

Well, then, maybe you can tell me why the Kurds don't have their own land? Or the Palestinians, for that matter. How about the Baha'i or the Zoroastrians. How about Native Americans. Maybe they, too, have a right to their own land.

There are already sites within Israel that are designated World Heritage Sites. I didn't express my thoughts very well. To put it bluntly, read this:

" When will Israel become the state of all its citizens and transform itself into a multicultural society in which all its communities, Jewish and non-Jewish, can live in harmony?"

from here: http://mondediplo.com/1997/11/israel

If you want to make New York City a World Heritage Site, you have to meet the criteria. Google it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:03 AM

Dianavan:

Thank you for a straight answer to a straight question.

That was more than Guest,dan, Guest,ifor, Guest,Hugo, Guest,jon cared to give me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:05 AM

BTW, dan or ifor or josh or jon or whoever it is for this hour. You are far behind with your report about the dead Canadians. They died on July 16.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:20 AM

"No fighting between Israeli ground forces and militants was reported in Gaza on Saturday but Israel fired a few shells at open fields in the east, with no casualties reported.

In fighting in Gaza on Friday, four people were killed - a Hamas activist and three relatives - in an explosion at his home in Gaza City, hospital officials said. Israel said it fired a tank shell at the balcony of the house as the activist was preparing to fire an anti-tank missile at its forces."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:45 AM

Now, why was the guy trying to fire an anti-tank missile form the home of his relatives? More civilian casualties to be mentioned by the 'Socialist' crew I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:59 AM

From the Toronto Star:

"Israeli military psychological operations were active, giving residents of 10 villages in the borderlands a deadline of 7 p.m. to vacate their homes in advance of planned air strikes. The IDF has also dropped leaflets and activated automated telephone calling to residential lines in the region conveying similar warnings in Arabic."

I wonder if Hezbollah does this sort of thing before it launches rockets?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:28 AM

There is always alot of mention of injured Palatinain children around here. We've long seen it being the Young being willing to strap on Suicide bombs, so do you really belive they're not also running around with AK 47s?
Or should the soldiers under fire stop to check the birth cetrifiacates of those shooting at them, so they can tell the diffrerence between the 19 year old legitimate target, and the 17 year old 'child'?

The Israeli army are in DPM camoflage, but Hamas, Hezbollah etc camoflage themselves by hididng amongst civilians. They know if they ever openly face the Israli army without this, they would be anihilated in hours. Only by forcing the Israelis to limit themselves can they carry on fighting. If the Israelis didn't care about civilian casulties at all, the first pass over those villages would be cluster bombs, not warning leaflets.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:06 AM

Once upon a time there was a man called Uncle Sam, and he had a freind, Cousin Jacob. Now Uncle Sam was a big man about town, and whatever he did, people noticed. Sometimes, he gets involved in some little scuffles around town between people, as the sherrif is asleep most of the time, and even when he is awake, he's an 8 stone weakling nobody listens to.

Uncle Ivan used to be another big important person like Uncle sam, so they never got on, but a few years ago he fell in love with his vodka, and nobody knows when he'll wake up, and there's Chin about as well, who body knows much about, but he's growing up fast.

Now, When cousin Jacob moven into his new little flat, the Neighbours decided they didn't like him, and tried to get kick him out. Now every time Uncle Sam goes over there to try and sort out the mess, everyone starts shouting at him to do something different, and he has to try and stop jacob beating up the neighbours too badly, or they won't let Uncle Sam use their Gas station.

Jacob has got a six shooter, just like Uncle Sam and Ivan and Chin, and one of the neighbours is on his way to the gun shop, so Uncle Sam better do something quick before someone gets really hurt, or they buld the whole building down, but he doesn't know what to do, and Ivans even less use.





Well if the Middle east is a Soap Opera, it might as well sound like one...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:17 AM

WAR CRIME IN BEIRUT
In Beirut a top United Nations official has said that Israeli air attacks on the city amounted to a war crime.

"It's horrific.I did not know it was block after block of houses,"said
Jan Egeland the UN Emergency Relief Coordinator as he toured the shattered Haret Hreik district of south Beirut.
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Stop the War; Si
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

13th-19th July....Palestine Occupied Territories...

Between the above dates the following has occured in occupied Palestinian territories.

1 26 Palestinians,mostly civilians, have been killed .The total includes 5 children and 2 women murdered by the Israeli Occupation Forces.

2 200 Palestinians including 55 children and 5 women have been wounded by Israeli gunfire.

3 The Israeli Occupation Forces have launched some 27 major attacks into the Gaza and the illegally occupied West Bank.

4 Some 70 houses have been destroyed in Gaza together with community facilities and farmland etc.

5 Israeli warplanes have launched a series of air attacks on the Gaza destroying electricity networks,a power station and transmittors.

Since early June 115 Palestinians have been killed and 550 have been wounded...this total includes 134 children.

6 Israel has fired 124 air to surface missiles and hundreds of artillery shells into one of the most densely packed cities in the world.

7 Bridges,roads and streets have been destroyed and civilians used as human shields.

8 Gaza beach has been attacked and a family wiped out.

9 Five people have been killed during a raid on occupied Nablus.

10 War against defenceless civilians is still a war crime.

Si

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:15 AM

BBC Radio has just reported that Lebanese civilians wounded in their homes have been injured for a second time by Israeli missiles while being moved by car to a hospital.
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:18 PM

Two excerpts from this excellent article by the distinguished human rights lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan M. Dershowitz.


"IT SHOULD BE obvious by now that Hizbullah and Hamas actually want the Israeli military to kill as many Lebanese and Palestinian civilians as possible. That is why they store their rockets underneath the beds of civilians; why they launch their missiles from crowded civilian neighborhoods and hide among civilians. They are seeking to induce Israel to defend its civilians by going after them among their civilian "shields." They know that every civilian they induce Israel to kill hurts Israel in the media and the international and human rights communities.

They regard these human shields as shahids - martyrs - even if they did not volunteer for this lethal job. Under the law, criminals who use human shields are responsible for the deaths of the shields, even if the bullet that kills them came from the gun of a policeman.

Israel has every self-interest in minimizing civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists have every self-interest in maximizing them - on both sides. Israel should not be condemned for doing what every democracy would and should do: taking every reasonable military step to stop the terrorists from killing their innocent civilians."

And...

"The very idea that terrorists who use women and children as suicide bombers against other women and children shed crocodile tears over the deaths of civilians they deliberately put in harm's way gives new meaning to the word "hypocrisy." We all know that hypocrisy is a tactic of the terrorists, but it is shocking that others fall for it and become complicit with the terrorists.

Let the blame fall where it belongs: on the terrorists who deliberately seek to kill enemy civilians and give their democratic enemies little choice but to kill some civilians behind whom the terrorists are hiding.

Those who condemn Israel for killing civilians - who are used as human shields and swords for the terrorists - actually cause more civilian deaths and make it harder for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:40 PM

A minibus carrying refugees fleeing northwards from the bombing of the south was hit today by an Israeli missile. Three were killed and twelve seriously wounded.The scene of the dead and wounded being ferried to a local hospital was filmed by a BBC news team and the story became one of the lead items in the UK s national news.

The BBC reporter ,obviously distressed and angry at the sight of the dead and wounded ,wanted to know how the refugees were supposed to escape from the southern war zone if their cars and buses were going to be bombed and strafed by Israeli warplanes.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:06 PM

I think that is a very good question, David.

I was also wondering how people in Lebanon were expected to retreat when the bridges, roads and airports have been bombed? Apparently the Israelis are also re-routing the evacuation ships instead of letting them pass through as quickly as possible?

Why are so many nations expected to evacuate their citizens (at their own expense) so that Israel can destroy Lebanon. Seems to me it would have been better to exchange prisoners and save everybody a lot of time and expense, let alone human misery.

If Israel is not convicted of war crimes, at least they should be billed for the evacuation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

I totally agree dianavan and the anti war meeting in Tel Aviv yesterday expressed the same thoughts!
daviv

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 04:42 PM

Hezbollah has to be convicted of war crimes too.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM

Reply to Guest
But surely you can't equate the overwhelming violence of the aggressor with the violence of those under attack?
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 05:07 PM

You are very confusing. Hezbollah was the aggressor. They just pissed off the wrong people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM

Some of you are making my argument for me. Of the many times I've posed the question:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

I have yet to receive one reply in the affirmative from anyone bleating about the poor Lebanese victims. Mind you, I'm not even asking for acknowledgement that there are Israeli victims out there, or that this latest conflagration was initiated by named Terrorist organizations with political connections on the other side of the borders from Israel. I'm just trying to sound out the folks who are making such a big issue of the 'Arab' victims. In no case, other than CarolC, have I found someone who acknowledges Israel's rights to any borders. So all this whining about the poor victims is a cover for cheering on anyone who wants to wack Israel. There is not other point they wish to make.

Then on top of it all they think they can use as ammo the fact that there's an anti-war protest in Israel! That's what democracy and freedom of expression are all about! In the one country they do not acknowledge!

This to me is an example of the BIG LIE, a position so extreme in once direction, barely acknowledging the humanity of the foe, that it's self-justification is sneaked by the unwary.

simply incredible.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:43 PM

I am waiting for an anti-Hezbollah demonstration in one of the Arab countries. Yep. And waiting, and waiting . . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:45 PM

Robomatic - There are victims on both sides.

There are more victims in Lebanon and Palestine.

Way more.

Self-defence does not include slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:47 PM

The ratio is about ten to one. So why did Hezbollah and Hamas start it? Not very bright on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:51 PM

If the Hezbollah had superior weaponry, I think it would be a much different picture in the number of causalties on the Israeli side.

Israeli building codes make it mandatory for 'bomb shelters' in all residential aprtment buildings ... (I wonder why) that also accounts for the the lesser casualty figures in Israel.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:57 PM

So because you think Hezbollah started it, that justifies a 10:1 body count?

...or that its because Israel has bigger weapons and more bomb shelters?

Thats sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:59 PM

First, that is not what I said. Second, take your haterd elsewhere, and your presumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:59 PM

Dianavan:

There you go again. It is Israel's fault that not enough are dying on their side!

Again you ignore how this conflict started and how it is being prosecuted. One side made an attack across Israel's border, then fired missiles out of populated areas. It is when this fact is ignored that it becomes obvious that the view is totally one-sided.

By the way, in your reply to me above, repeated entirely:

robo - you asked, "I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC? "

The answer is no.

I think Jews and Arabs should live together in Palestine and share the holy sites with the whole world. There is absolutely no reason why there has to be a government of Israel or a government of Palestine. There is absolutely no reason they can't live together peacefully and continue their religious practices side by side.   

I think it should be designated as a World Heritage Site.

Anything else is just a power struggle which is waste of time and energy.

If you don't recognize that Israel has borders, then as far as I can tell, by your standards Israel has no right of self defense whatsoever. What then limits what can be done to Israelis?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:01 PM

That's what I said ... it's facts.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

She is interested in venom, not facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

well ... what can ya do .... keep lotsa venom serum handy.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 10:08 PM

"Israeli casualties in heavy Hizbollah clash - source

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli forces took casualties in heavy fighting with Hizbollah guerrillas just inside Lebanon on Thursday, an Israeli military source said.

There were a number of Israeli casualties and one Hizbollah fighter was killed, the source said. Israeli media reported eight soldiers had been wounded."

Here. That should make you feel better. Jaysus, talk about sick . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:01 AM

If you think the only way to settle land disputes is by bombing the innocent civilians, you are war mongers.

What I object to is over-reacting and slaughtering people and destroying their homes. In fact, Israel is committing war crimes against defenseless people. I hold Israel to a higher standard than I do terrorists. Don't you? Any nation that has caused as much grief as Israel has caused the international community will never win in the court of public opinion.

Sure, Israel can defend itself - within reason but the destruction they are causing is cruel and unreasonable.

I think its time we all took a deep breath and read this prophetic poem by Yeats:

Second Coming
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot see the falconer
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere,
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert binds
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

btw - Israel has no claim to self righteousness. Ask the Ethiopian Jews who immigrated to Israel whether or not the Zionists discriminated against them. Ask who gets the best land in Israel?

Seems to me that there are no good guys in this - only innocent civilians being slaughtered and more displaced people and more medical emergencies and hunger. Is this a logical solution?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

The present war is not about land disputes. It is the result of attacks on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas, both of whom hide themselves in the civilian population. People rob banks because that's where the money is.

Your concern for civilian casualties seems not to extend itself to Israeli casualties. They were the first in this particular war. The Israelis--as was noted upthread--have bomb shelters. That accounts for at least some of the disparity in casualty figures. They have those bomb shelters for a reason. Think about it.

BTW, Israel is a country. It has been since 1948.

If you care a wit about casulaties--which you claim to do--than write to Hezbollah and Hamas. Ask them not to attack Israel. That would show some good faith on your part. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

A comment about robomatic's Posting Above

"That is what democracy and freedom are all about"

Before you praise Israel as a beacon of democracy and freedom any further consider-

1 The whole state was founded on land stolen from its indiginous population-the people of Palestine.

Yes,its difficult for a hardened Zionist to accept but the Palestinians were there before the Zionists and were in the majority. The Israelis were better armed ,better led and better trained. Zionism itself was and is a ferocious belief and the Palestinians had no real defence to the ferocity of the onslaught from the Zionist militias like the Irgun.Israel denies those refugees the right of return .

2 Israel is also an expansionist state looking to conquer new land from its neighbours.Many Zionists ,some in positions of power ,believe in a Israel that would be far bigger than its present borders.

In defiance of the Geneva Convention and the UN, Israel has settled hundreds of thousands of armed Zionists in colonies on the West Bank.These paramilitaries have behaved like the bullying racists they are,shooting threatening and stealing from the Palestinians who live there.They have stolen land yet again,water,orchards and farmland .
Some of these paramilitary types have been driven mad by their Zionism.One Baruch Goldstein ,an army reservist ,slaughtered and wounded hundreds of muslim worshippers in the holy shrine the Tomb of the patricians with an army issue assault rifle.
When he was overcome and killed by those he attacked his death was classed as "murder"!

The Palestinians on the conquered West Bank and in Gaza have been imprisoned and ill treated in their tens of thousands.Almost every male Palestinian has been in prison at one time or another.They have ben tortured and denied the most basic civil rights by Israel.

Basically Israel is determined to make their lives impossible and drive them out.Your claim about Israeli democracy is a mockery!

3 The Israeli treatment of Gaza is surely a crime against humanity.For almost 40 years some 8000 Israeli Zionists backed up by their powerful army controlled the million plus Palestinian refugees .
They denied them water, demied access to most of the beaches at Gaza, crowded them into one of the most densely packed places on earth ,controlled their movements woth checkpoints as if they were penned cattle and killed them on many occasions.

When the Israelis finally pulled out,because their presence was unsustainable they continued to control its borders,its coastal waters,its air space-and then poured in missiles and bombs.The Israeli military even bombed the beach where kids were playing and blew a family to smithereens.No freedom for those poor people.

The big lie about Palestine being an empty land and Israeli freedom and democracy can no longer wash......it is soaked in the blood of those it has murdered and maimed at Deir Yassin, at Qana, in the poor sad refugee camps in Beirut, in Nablus and Jenin , in Gaza, on the West Bank, in the Golan , in the AL khaim prison , in Hebron and in Jerusalem.
Albert
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:48 AM

Was your mind given a washing before or after the Socialist Workers Party became the source of your information?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM

"This time, as on earlier occasions of wars involving Israel and its neighbours, many in the West view both parties to the conflict through the lens of moral equivalence.

The view that Israel and its enemies are essentially morally equivalent overlooks one crucial fact, above all.

Of all the different peoples in the Middle East, Israelis, alone, live permanently under threat for their very existence as a people.

Arab and Muslim leaders and activists from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon are notoriously fractious and warring.

But time and again, they have been brought to unity on a single point. The need to crush, defeat and, if possible, obliterate Israel."

parrt of an article from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Albert
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:34 AM

The source of my information is the history of Palestine and Israel.
IT is the philosophy and practice of Zionism.
It is what is happening now in Israel,the Lebanon and the Middle East.
It is the role ,past and present of the USA.
It is the work on Amnesty International and other Hunan Rights groups.
It is not the mainstream media in the West which is generally in thrall to Zionism and the Big Business interests whichare also in favour of a Middle East under the control of the USA .

Socialist Worker is loathed by Zionists and the right . So it must be doing its job.It also tries to serve as the memory of the international working class hence its recent article on Zionism by the jewish and socialist writer John Rose....who is also the author of the brilliant book The Myths of Zionism. This week's edition also carries a useful article entitled "Lebanon's History of Resistance To Zionism" .
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:40 AM

Dershowitz can hardly be said to be a neutral analyst, but for a man of his eminence to assume that American law applies worldside is extraordinary.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM

Guest, Albert:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Your history lesson above ignores the history of the Mideast, that there was no "Palestine", that the Jewish settlement of the area occurred in stages including the purchase of land, existing long-time settlements of Jews, and the original UN partition. All of this was legal under any system of government. Your version is incredibly one-sided. And unrelated to the current situation which was created by attacks across the border by first the terrorist organization Hamas and second the terrorist organization Hezbollah. This situation will stop if:


Return the kidnapped Israelis
Stop the rocket attacks on Israel
Lebanon Army to take full control of S. Lebanon

All nice 'n legal

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert TO ROBO
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM

....No Palestine... you and all the Zionists say....well you would wouldn't you.

Stop reading the fantastical Zionist accounts and start reading the other histories of that land.And isnt it revealing how Israel keeps destroying the historical records of Palestine when and where it can...the Orient House for example. What you don't mention is that the Zionist takeover of Palestine started under the Turkish Ottoman rulers and quickly intensified under the British mandate with the Palestinian inhabitants having no say in the matter or their future.

What is also well hidden from popular knowledge is the willingness of some Zionists to placate the German nazis during the 1930 s . A story that drew howls of Zionist hatred when it was told in Jim Allen's play PERDITION in the early 1980s .

Israel's use of terror as an instrument of state policy has increased on a dramatic scale .You keep on chanting a mantra about 1967 borders as if Israel acquired them by legitimate means.Israel was founded on mass murder,mass terror and grand theft.....but you won't find that in your Zionist histories.
Free Palestine!
Stop The Slaughter in the Lebanon!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM

"They have those bomb shelters for a reason. Think about it."

I have thoughe about that.

Maybe thats more a question of affordability. I doubt is you have any more insight to that than I do.

...or is it because there are more Lebanese casualties is that Israel is a much bigger military power?

Maybe its because the Lebanese fleeing their homes.

btw - You worry about your own faith. I have absolutely no faith in the rough God of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:30 PM

I'm the one who originally posted about the bomb shelters in Israel with the comment (wonder why) ... if you read my thread, I stated that all apartment buildings and homes built in Israel (it's not a matter of wealth) abide by building stantard laws (it's the law) to have have bomb shelters. No matter what side your on dianavan, you have to admit this would help in saving lifes during a bombardment. A damned good law to have in the middle east ... regardless if one is a war hawk or not. It at least protects families while government (or political/religeious organization's) agenda's slug it out.

It's your perogative not to have faith in the rough God of Israel. I personally have faith in humanity.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

In reponse to a probable retort from you dianavan ... that the people of Lebanon just don't have the money ... well, my reponse is that maybe the Hezbollah should have had priority and invested some of the (large amounts) of money in bomb shelters for the citizens instead of weaponry ... a lot of those apartment blocks in Beruit and elswhere you see on TV news coverage are new ... if they needed more money, then goto Syria and Iran who have been supplying them with the arms for protection of it's people first ... after the people have been looked after then start accumulating weapons of destruction to go about whatever your gonna do.

whatever ... no excuse for the powers that be not to look after the people is such volatile environment. They have the money to do it .... don't kid yourself.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

It was reported on the BBC news a few minutes ago that two Red Cross ambulances had been destroyed by Israeli air to ground missiles.The video footage showed the ambulances minutes after they had been struck in a built up part of Tyre.If the Red Cross isn't safe then it really is a free fire zone in the Lebanon and Israel is clearly breaking international war.It's leaders must be held to account for the war crimes the Israeli military forces are committing.
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

True enough James .... they will have to be accountable for that.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:57 PM

There is no doubt that Hezbollah, Hamas and Israel's IDF are violating humanitarian law. None at all. But, will not be addressed until an internationa;l force in the region to stop the fighting. Hezbollah has declared, however, that it will not stop firing rockets into Israel. If I were Israel, I would unilaterally cease fire. Then the world could see the true nature of Hezbollan.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Walt
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:19 PM

The original offer from Hezbollah was for the release of the two captured Israeli soldiers in exchange for the release of Lebanese prisoners held by Israel,one of whom has been in an Israeli prison since 1979 when he was 16 years old.

A swap could have avoided the slaughter of the past few weeks but also of course there is a swap to be done in the Gaza where the Palestinian fighters are holding an Israeli soldier .They want to exchange him for Palestinian women and children being held in Israel jails.

Hezbollah is seen by many in the arab world as a self defence organisation....after all it is Israel which has destroyed the Lebanon twice in twenty years and Hezbollah only came into existence as a result of the first invasion in 1982.

Israel may detest its tactics but what restraint has Israel shown?
Israel bombs,assasinates,shoots,disobeys international laws and indeed the laws of the torah, terrorises ,tortures and illegally imprisons without any apparent restraint.What Israel can do it never fails to overdo!
The people of Palestine demand justice...I do not see how there can be peace while their legitimate rights are denied and while Israel continues to terrorise them.
Walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:22 PM

That's Torah to you, Walt.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:30 PM

From the Qur'an (Koran):

"[6.137] And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion; and if Allah had pleased, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:18 PM

Look up, polytheists, Peace.

I don't think this quote has anything to do with the discussion and it just demonstrates how desperate you are to rationalize the over-kill of Israel.

...just when I thought you were beginning to make sense with your post, "If I were Israel, I would unilaterally cease fire. Then the world could see the true nature of Hezbollan."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:35 PM

Guest James ... It looks as if your post regarding Red Cross ambulances destroyed is somewhat exaggerated ... It certainly hasn't been on the evening news ... if it was true, it certainly would been .... there are 2 references on the net I found ... 1 from the Sydney Times and 1 from the Arab Monitor ... both relate to ambulances being fired upon ... resulting in no casalties.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:37 PM

Dianavan:

You do not care about the deaths of civilians at all. This whole damned thing is about winning an argument, which you won't do. Hezbollah and Hamas are wrong. The Israelis are wrong to pursue the course they are. You and your claptrap arguments always take it back to a position that basically says Israel has no right to exist. We will never agree on that. Ever.

I want to know what YOU have done besides make remarks on this site. You written to Hexbollah? Lebanon? Hamas?

I have e-mailed Israel a few times requesting they back off. Can you say the same about H, H and L? Likely not. Gai feifen ahfen yam!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:47 PM

Walt, his boys and girls, are not into fact. They are into innuendo and falsehooh. They learned well from Stalin.



"The Daily Star reports, [July 24, 2006]


Israel also targeted Hizbullah's power base in the Bekaa Valley, hitting three factories, a house and bridges and roads. The air strikes ignited large fires, killed at least one civilian and wounded two others.

Three rescuers from the Civil Defense personnel of the Islamic Scout Mission, an association affiliated with the Amal Movement, were wounded after Israeli air raids struck their ambulance as it transported wounded civilians to nearby hospitals, according to Hassan Hamdan, the association's official in the South."

from

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/07/24/18290953.php

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:55 PM

"SIDON, Lebanon - Mideast diplomats were pressing Syria to stop backing Hezbollah in a bid to stop the warfare in Lebanon, but the violence was undiminished, with Israeli missiles killing four people, including a journalist, in a strike on a convoy of fleeing Lebanese."

from the Khaleej Times

The article is balanced (but won't be for those who wish the destruction of Israel and Jews in general).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:59 PM

p. 158    Requite evil with good and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. But none will attain this save those who endure with fortitude and are greatly favoured by Allah."

Always a caveat, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:16 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ambulances-fired-on-by-israel-says-red-cross/2006/07/24/1153593272695.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003147913_civilians24.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:15 PM

"You do not care about the deaths of civilians at all."

You are very wrong about that.

Israel is not above reproach. If I criticize the govt. of Israel for their politics, you automatically assume that I support Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't. There is a difference between supporting them and saying the people of Lebanon need to be protected from their aggressive neighbor. If it weren't for Hezbollah, Israel would never have left Lebanon.

On the other hand, you seem to applaud Israel and attempt to justify slaughter.

You seem to think that writing Israel a letter will make a difference. Guess what, they won't even listen to the U.N. A letter will make no more difference than winning or losing an argument on Mudcat. You can quote the Koran all you want and it still won't make a difference (especially if it has no bearing on the topic). By now, it is obvious that reason and logic are second only to your blind faith in the power and might of Israel.

Israel isn't God.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:32 PM

"Israel isn't God" or even Yahweh ... what a ludicrous statement .... of course not. It is a nation of people ... some nice humans, some not so nice humans ... Israel, like any other nation is equal to the sum of it's people.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:46 PM

I totally support the Israelis' right to defend their borders and to try to end Hezbollah's attacks on them.

But they have blown this campaign--and in the process strengthened their adversaries, including Syria, Iran, and probably Hezbollah in Lebanon --not to mention anti-Semitism all over the world.

As Peace has implied, this is not just a military campaign--it's also a propaganda campaign. The Israeli attacks on Lebanon, especially on the Lebanese army and areas of Lebanon which don't harbor many Hezbollah fighters--are worse than criminal ( for loss of life). They are stupid.

They give Hezbollah the opportunity to paint itself--plausibly-- as the only Lebanese patriots--fighting an external aggression. Think the "embattled farmers" at Lexington and Concord--or think Southerners during Sherman's march to the sea. The difference is that Sherman's march really did hasten the end of the Civil War. Given that Israel admits it cannot expunge Hezbollah root and branch, do you really see an Appomattox anytime soon?. And how long did the bitterness in the South last after Sherman's march?

Also, Hezbollah is, among other things, very media-savvy. Not only do they have their own television station, but they know the power of gruesome pictures--especially of women and children. Pictures of the corpse of a child were shown on Hezbollah's satellite TV station--and e-mailed around the world.

The more Lebanon in general is attacked, the more the Lebanese intelligentsia flees the country. Already Bush is being criticized by prominent Lebanese for his support of the Israeli campaign, which threatens to destroy one of his prize "young democracies".

This is a disaster for Lebanon--but also for Israel. The only group that wins is---Hezbollah.

Not exactly what Israel--or the West--would like.   

As I said from the start of the campaign--the only good approach to this is a well-armed multinational force --not the current token force--stationed on the border.

Israel felt--with justification-- that the provocations had gone too far.

But this response is the most senseless, counterproductive, and brainless one imaginable.

And they will live to regret it--if they're not already doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:01 AM

Ron ... what countries would you suggest make up this multinational force ... Nato members?? Unfortunately I think it would be disasterous. I agree fully (and good point in your post) that Hezbollah is very media savy ... and it has been working in their favour in regards to world opinion ... personally, I believe the only solution is that Israel pull back, cool down, take some punches but roll wit them. Maybe this will damper down the actions of Hezbollah. It Won't solve the problems, but it will cease the killings (for a while anyway)

Good post (overall) of yours

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

To number six
I can assure yiu that the attack on the two Red Cross ambulances made the top story on the BBC news yeaterday.I saw both showings.One thing I didn't mention that the missile punched a large hole at the very centre of the red cross sign on the roof of one of the ambulances itself...as if the cross itself had been the actual bullseye target.

The second showing also showed footage of the ambulance paramedics being brought into hospital covered in blood along with a young boy of about 8 years.
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:15 AM

Ron: I'm not going to disagree with your post, which is very different from the propaganda of the Walt, James, Jon, ifor gang. Israel has been wrongly accused before, but no one is saying she's perfect. Let's see how it plays out.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:26 AM

Assurances from you mean little.

"The Sarours had to go to the port by taxi because the Lebanese Red Cross suspended operations outside Tyre after Israeli jets blasted two ambulances with rockets, said Ali Deebe, a Red Cross spokesman in Tyre.

In the incident Sunday, one Red Cross ambulance went south of Tyre to meet an ambulance and transfer the wounded to the hospital.

"When we have wounded outside the city, we always used two ambulances," Deebe said.

The rocket attack on the two vehicles wounded six ambulance workers and three civilians _ an 11-year-old boy, an elderly woman and a man, Deebe said.

"One of the rockets hit right in the middle of the big red cross that was painted on top of the ambulance," he said. "This is a clear violation of humanitarian law, of international law. We are neutral and we should not be targeted."

Kassem Shalan, one of the ambulance workers, told AP Television News that nine people were injured. "We were transferring the wounded into our vehicle and something fell and I dropped to the floor," he said.

Amateur video provided by an ambulance worker confirmed Deebe's account of damage to the vehicles, showing one large hole and several smaller ones in the roof of one ambulance and a large hole in the roof of the second. Both were destroyed.

The Israeli military said it was investigating the incident."

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"You seem to think that writing Israel a letter will make a difference. Guess what, they won't even listen to the U.N. A letter will make no more difference than winning or losing an argument on Mudcat."

I asked what you had done. This is your response. In other words, you have done nothing. Thank you for making that clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:28 AM

Good post, Ron. A very reasoned approach to the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:41 AM

"Annan Wants End Israel-Hezbollah Conflict
By EDITH M. LEDERER , 07.25.2006, 12:23 AM

"U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Monday he wants the upcoming meeting of key Mideast players to agree on a package to stop the Israeli-Hezbollah fighting and ensure lasting peace between Israel and Lebanon."

Maybe, at last, some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:05 AM

Incidentally, in the most recent stories mentioning the Hezbollah cross border raid in which two Israeli soldiers were captured, they now mention there were eight killed. I hadn't heard that before.

Where was the Lebanese Army?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:07 AM

Hezbollah, Lebanese Army--same thing, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:18 AM

And on the other front:

"Air Force Bombs Gaza Weapons Depot
04:43 Jul 24, '06 / 28 Tammuz 5766

(IsraelNN.com) Israeli Air Force planes have bombed a weapons depot in the Gaza region. No one was injured in the raid. The weapons were used by the Islamic Jihad, according to an IDF spokesman.

The army arranged a phone call to citizens living in the building before the attack in order to allow them to escape."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:21 AM

Human Rights Watch has accused the Israeli army of attacking civilian targets with cluster bombs fired by artillery on the Israel-Lebanon border at the Lebanese village of Bilda.

One civilian was killed and at least 12 wounded ,some of whom were sheltering in a cellar.One of the wounded lost both legs in the attack during which several cluster bomb shells were fired.A family of 4 German-Lebanese were also wounded while sheltering in a housein the village.

The cluster bombs were seen stacked and ready for use with an Israeli artillery unit by inspectors from the Human Rights Watch which has lodged a complaint with Israel.The use of cluster bombs against civilians is illegal under International Law but Israel has stockpiles a variety of these weapons and is obviously prepared to use them .
Meanwhile,Lebanese doctors believe that the Israeli military has also used white phosphorous bombs against children...who are now being treated in hospital.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:31 AM

I have to ask: Is your last name First?

Also, if the Israelis are using WP against civilians, the people who gave the order for their use deserve to be tried for crimes against humanity.

"NEW YORK, July 24 (Reuters) - A U.S.-based human rights group accused Israel on Monday of using artillery-fired cluster grenades against a Lebanese village last week during its assault against Hizbollah.

Human Rights Watch said it had taken photos of cluster grenades stored by Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border and that a cluster grenade attack on Wednesday killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians in the village of Blida.

"Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians," Human Rights Watch Executive Director Kenneth Roth said in a statement. "They should never be used in populated areas."

Israeli officials in the United States were not immediately available for comment.

Human Rights Watch said it had photographed M483A1 artillery shells stored on the Israeli side of the border, which deliver 88 cluster submunitions per shell and have a failure rate of 14 percent, often leaving behind dangerous unexploded shells.

It said it believes the use of cluster grenades in populated areas could violate a ban on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law.

"Our research in Iraq and Kosovo shows that cluster munitions cannot be used in populated areas without huge loss of civilian life," Roth said. "Israel must stop using cluster bombs in Lebanon at once."

###############################################

Notice, however, that the article says 'indiscriminate attacks' are a violation of international law. Hezbollah's rockets fall in the same category. Look at both sides, Hugo.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM

However, since you won't, I will.

"Tuesday 18 July 2006
Human Rights Watch: Hezbollah Attacks Target Civilians
Anti-personnel Ball Bearings Meant to Harm "Soft" Targets

(New York) - Hezbollah's attacks in Israel on Sunday and Monday were at best indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas, at worst the deliberate targeting of civilians. Either way, they were serious violations of international humanitarian law and probable war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In addition, the warheads used suggest a desire to maximize harm to civilians. Some of the rockets launched against Haifa over the past two days contained hundreds of metal ball bearings that are of limited use against military targets but cause great harm to civilians and civilian property. The ball bearings lodge in the body and cause serious harm."

Complete article here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:42 AM

Hizbullah looking to the future . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:52 AM

Wilfred Owen

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:03 AM

And for the Socialist Party crew here:

Meditation XVII: No man is an island...

"All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

##########################################################

You won't care for that because it brings a cheer to your hearts when Israelis die. However, there it is. You, and people like you glory in the deaths of people. I do NOT share your view. It brings me no joy when Lebanese, Iraqis, 'Palestinians', Syrians, Americans, Canadians, Isrealis are killed in war. I guess I just haven't had your degree of indoctrination. I hope I never do.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:09 AM

"It said it believes the use of cluster grenades in populated areas could violate a ban on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law."

This applies to everyone. ie) international, humanitarian

Human Rights Watch addresses Nations, not criminal activity like terrorism.



"Hezbollah, Lebanese Army--same thing, no?" - from Peace

Absolutely not. Lebanon has its own military.

Hezbollah is not the Lebanese army.


"Lebanon's army, which so far has sat on the sidelines of the violence raging in the country, will join the fight against Israel if Israeli forces invade the country, Defense Minister Elias Murr said on Al-Jazeera television. "The Lebanese army -- and I stress -- the Lebanese army will resist and defend and will prove that it is an army that deserves respect," he said. In most of the previous Israeli attacks, including in 1978 and the 1982 invasion in which Beirut was occupied, the Lebanese army largely stayed out of the fighting. Twenty Lebanese soldiers have been killed in strikes on their bases during the nine-day-old Israeli bombardment of Lebanon."

Lebanese Prime Minister Siniora told the New York Times that the abducted Israeli soldiers could be released and the Lebanese army moved to the south of the country if Israel meets certain conditions. Siniora said the conditions include Israel's withdrawal from the disputed Shebaa Farms area of the border, the release of Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails and a return to the terms of the 1949 armistice between the two countries, the Times reported. He suggested that the Lebanese army would move to southern Lebanon – an Israeli demand -- once these conditions were met. He backed the idea of a more robust international force, but only after "all the issues" were put on the table, and he stopped short of condemning Hezbollah, the newspaper said.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Israel would be ready to call a cease-fire with Hezbollah if its captured soldiers are returned, the Lebanese army deploys along the countries' shared border and the future disarmament of Hezbollah can be guaranteed. In recent days, Israeli officials have sent conflicting signals about whether Israel would demand Hezbollah's immediate disarmament as a condition for a halt in fighting.

Israeli fighter-bombers killed five Lebanese soldiers and wounded 41 others in an overnight strike on a Lebanese army base in the area of Kfar Chima, security officials said. The Lebanese army has largely stayed out of the fighting between Hezbollah guerrillas and Israel, but its positions have been repeatedly attacked by Israeli warplanes."

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB115306760246608000-aC9JLHSn5Kn6cCdR4X1jlOAoFgQ_20060820.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top

Trouble with the Israeli mentality is that they consider EVERYONE their enemy. Its usually a good idea to know your enemy before you start lobbing bombs.

btw - Seven of the Canadians that were killed in Gaza were from the same family. The remaining family members returned today. One of the women said they were ordered by the Canadian embassy to stay in their homes when the bombing began, not to go on the streets, not to flee. They stayed and were blasted to smithereens.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:13 AM

"Trouble with the Israeli mentality is that they consider EVERYONE their enemy."

They have good reason for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM

'"Hezbollah, Lebanese Army--same thing, no?" - from Peace

Absolutely not. Lebanon has its own military.

Hezbollah is not the Lebanese army.'

EXACTLY!

######################################################

Four Children Among Canadian Dead
More information on the Canadians killed on vacation in Lebanon from the CBC…

"Seven Canadians — including four children — were killed in an Israeli air raid that hit a Lebanese town on the border with Israel on Sunday. Three Canadians were seriously injured.

Relatives of family killed in Lebanon grieve in Montreal (CBC)
Israel has acknowledged carrying out the attack and has apologized to Ottawa, CBC's Nahlah Ayed reported from Beirut.

Most of the dead were members of one extended Montreal family, on vacation in the village of Aitaroun at the time of the Israeli attack. Among those killed was Ali El-Akhras who came to Montreal from Lebanon 15 years ago. His wife, Saada El-Akhras, was among the injured.

The nephew of Ali El-Akhras, also named Ali, had accompanied his uncle and aunt on their annual summer vacation. His wife, Amira, and their four children, ages one, four, six and eight, were killed in the attack

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:30 AM

This man's mother will grieve as much as anyone else. And she will ask the same question over and over. And no answer will ever be good enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:02 AM

To Peace.....
It seems to me that it is the Zionists who embrace total war against civilians and show no remorse at all for the scale of death ,misery and destruction the Israeli army has caused in both Gaza and the Lebanon.

This morning the news has reported the use of cluster bombs, and doctors at a Lebanese hospital have stated that white phospherous bombs have been used against Lebanese children.

Last night the BBC reported the missile attack on clearly marked Red Cross ambulances.This morning seven civilians were killed in an air attack at the Lebanese village of Nabatiah.

Your attack on the Sociliat Party is quite frankly bizarre!

The Socialist Party [which I am not a member of ] and other socialist organisations in Britain have been part of the backbone of the anti war movement . The Stop The War Coalition ,formed in the aftermath of the attack on the Twin Towers in New York, mobilised up to 2 million in a huge demonstration against the attack on Iraq in Feb 2003.One of the main slogans on the placards on the march called for a "Free Palestine".

Last saturday some 30000 marched at very short notice ,in London in support of the Palestinians and the Lebanese.They called for an end to the invasion of the Lebanon and justice for the Palestinians.

In contrast the American neo-cons and the Zionists in Israel are now targetting Syria and Iran.We have seen what their war of liberation has done to the Iraqi people and can only imagine what they have in store for the Syrians and Iranians.

Most socialists are anti war.We know that Israel has been massively supported by the USA because of the needs of Big Oil and for America's strategic and military interests.These interests coincide neatly with the Zionist demand for a greater Israel on land which is arab,palestinian or lebanese.

"No blood for oil!" was another slogan seen on the anti war demonstrations...and how correct that slogan was and is!
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:51 AM

It seems the parallel with Sherman's march is remarkably apt. (The difference, of course, is that Sherman had no intention of leaving behind a functioning Confederate government. ) But in Atlanta, Sherman's orders were to save churches and private homes. When he burned Atlanta, he spent most of the night with his engineers trying to save threatened houses. His orders to the troops were to save churches and private homes.

And on the march itself, his orders were not to enter private homes. He told the Southern women who asked that houses would not be burned but "the courthouse and the stores will"
And he said "I don't war on women and children".

1) Was this completely honored? Not likely--that's the way war is.

2) Did Sherman's prohibitions against disturbing non-war-related aspects of Southern life win him much popularity in the South?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:56 AM

As to the makeup of the multinational force, it has to include some Mideastern countries' troops. And the longer the Israeli attacks go on, the less likely they will be willing to partipate. It may already be too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM

Hugo, I take it you have been to Iraq and seen for yourself? No of course you are sitting at home watching telly and reading shitty newspapers. You could get 50,000 people to march on rights for dog fuckers in the UK, most of them could not place London on a map never mind Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:30 AM

Makeup of the multinational force:

1) Given French ties to Lebanon, especially to the intelligentsia, French troops would be an obvious choice for one component.

2) It might not be essential for Mideast troops to participate. It is however, mandatory that some Moslem troops be included. Perhaps Indonesian.


Main question obviously is the exact role the multinational force would play. Would part of the role be to actually disarm warring parties? That seems absolutely necessary. And a tall order.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:16 AM

"Last saturday some 30000 marched at very short notice ,in London in support of the Palestinians and the Lebanese.They called for an end to the invasion of the Lebanon and justice for the Palestinians."

Did 30000 march to condemn the rockets fired by Hezbollah and Hamas into Israel? It seems that some folks pick and choose which wrongs they wish to redress. If you are indeed pro peace, then the first march should have been to protest the Hezbollah and Hamas attcks against Israel. Uh, did that happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:22 AM

800!

I never thought I'd start an 800 thread.

Will it go 1,000?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM

The war will continue to continue. It'll go another week anyway. So, yes, this thread will continue to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

From an excellent article in English on the Spiegel Magazine site from Germany.

Islamism has attacked Israel from both the south and the north and Israel has no choice but to react. But there is more to it than that. Israel's military operation is important for the entire Western world. Until 2005, Islamism was able to successfully mislead the West into thinking that the "occupation" of Gaza and southern Lebanon was the cause of the terror attacks carried out against Israel. Now we know better: Islamism isn't out to change Israeli policy in the region, Islamism is out to completely eradicate the country of Israel. The same strategy is being used on a larger scale: The Middle East conflict is not the cause of Tehran's conflict with Western secularism. It is merely a convenient alibi.

Which kind of puts the lie to CarolC's mantra about the "occupation."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

"If you are indeed pro peace, then the first march should have been to protest the Hezbollah and Hamas attcks against Israel."

.... i agree Peace.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

A poll published this week and reported in Palestinian newspapers found that 65% of Palestinians "support Al-Qaeda actions in the USA and Europe." Religiously-motivated Al-Qaeda attacks against those referred to as "Infidels" have killed thousands of Americans and Europeans. Why would the Palestinian population so overwhelmingly support the murder of Christians?

For years, the Palestinian Authority religious leadership has been presenting its war against Israel's existence as merely one part of its global Islamic war being fought against the Christian-Jewish West. Just last month, a PA TV religious leader, during a televised sermon, included this prayer for the killing of all Infidels:

"Destroy the Infidels and the Polytheists! Your [i.e. Allah's] enemies are the enemies of the religion…! Count them and kill them to the last one, and don't leave even one."
[Suleiman Satari, PA TV, November 18, 2005]

This prayer - clear incitement to the genocide of "Infidels," a term that includes the Christian West - is common from PA religious leaders. Prayers to annihilate all Infidels have been included in Friday prayers on PA TV at least six times in recent months.

Presenting the destruction of the Christian-Jewish West as part of Allah's plan comes even from the highest religious powers, and receives the passive sanction of the highest political powers. Two of these sermons were delivered by Yusuf Jum'a Salamah, PA Minister of the Waqf and Religion - the most important religious office in the PA. Even though PA chairman Mahmoud Abbas was present on at least one of these occasions, similar prayers for genocide continued on the PA-owned and controlled TV in subsequent weeks.

The Palestinian Authority religious leaders for years have routinely applied the term "Infidel" to the US and other countries with primarily Christian populations. The following are some recent and past examples:

"The Infidel countries - first and foremost, the USA - have succeeded greatly in tearing our Islamic world apart..."
[Yusuf Abu Sneina, Voice of Palestine, September 2, 2005]

"America, Britain and Spain ... are uniting to strike at the people of truth [i.e. Muslims] in their homeland. This is the Infidels' way, O Muslims...

"The United Nations, to our regret, has become Dar al-Nadwa [literally 'House of Assembly,' the term for the pre-Islamic meeting place in Mecca], because that is where the Infidels meet."
[Ibrahim Mudayris, PA TV, February 28, 2003]

"The Infidel countries under the leadership of the US made up an excuse and justification to wage their dirty war [post 9-11 war in Afghanistan] against Islam and the Muslims.... Britain forgot that it is the height of terror and the height of hatred against Islam and Moslems."
[Yusuf Abu Sneina, Iman of Al-Aqsa Mosque, PA Radio, December 28, 2001]

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

Infidel means non-believer.

So they are referring to anyone who is not of the Muslim faith.

What makes those statements by Extreme Islamic Fundamentalists so different than when Bush said, "You're either for us or against us."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

Dianavan,

Despite the occasional and transparent 'denial,' it is obvious to all that you have a common agenda with Islamic terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

"The message of resistance against Israel is what strikes the greatest resonance between Hezbollah and its supporters, she said.

Malikah and Zeinab agree.

"I like them [Hezbollah] more when they kill Israel from our land," said 10-year-old Zeinab."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/24/schuster.hezbollah/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:53 PM

The above Zionist apologists conveniently forget that among the many Palestinians and Lebanese the Israeli armed forces are butchering and pounding in Gaza,The West Bank and the Lebanon are christians as well as muslims.

The personal abuse from "Guest" is fairly typical of the bully boys who support the Zionist state.

Most of the American and western civilians in Iraq since its invasion are "private contractors",you know them, the trigger happy and well paid mercenaries often from right wing,racist or neo nazi backgrounds.

They have been shown on film shooting up civilian cars on the streets of Bagdhad and terrorising the population.

By way of a contrast the westerners who are in the West Bank and Gaza often belong to the International Solidarity Movement .Its members are in those troubled and occupied territories to support the Palestinians who face beatings and humiliation from both the Israeli Occupation Forces and the thuggish Zionist colonialists who keep stealing land,demolishing Palestinian houses,bulldozing olive groves and building the unwanted Apartheid Wall.

These westerners who are often Jewish, socialists or secularists have been given a warm and emotional welcome by Palestinian communities from Jerusalem to Gaza.They come in peace,are concerned about Human Rights and have put their lives on the line like the late Tom Hurndell and Rachel Corrie both murdered by the Israeli military.

Rachel had her back broken by a huge bulldozer while trying to prvent the demolition of a Palestinian home while Tom was shot in the head by an Israeli sniper while helping children escape from a killing zone.

Both Rachel and Tom were murdered by the Israeli state .What happened to them is a common fate for many Palestinian victims of the Israeli military who have shot, strafed and blown up hundreds of children in the past few years. They have imprisoned,illtreated and terrorised many others and as I write are starving the young of Gaza in their ruined homes.

Burt still the Palestinians rise and still the Lebanese fight back!
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:00 PM

The above terrorist apologists -- like hugo -- conveniently forget that among the many Israelis that Hezbollah are butchering and pounding in northern Israel Muslim Arabs as well as Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

The above terrorist apologists -- like hugo -- conveniently forget that among the many Israelis that Hezbollah are butchering and pounding in northern *are* Israeli Muslim Arabs as well as Jews.

Note: This post is a corrected version of my post of a couple of minutes ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM

palestinians are liars.
Palestinian spokesmen Nabil Sha'ath, Hassan Abdel Rahman, Yasser Abed Rabbo, Ahmed Abdel Rahman and Saeb Erakat took the Western media for a ride last April in loudly proclaiming Israel had committed a "massacre" in Jenin. Yet, despite copious evidence of their blatant lying – the latest proof being United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan's August 1, 2002 report refuting their fictitious "massacre"– the credibility of these spokesmen with the American press is apparently unaffected. They enjoy almost unlimited media access to propagate myths about Israel.

The fact that the American media (with a few exceptions) seem either unwilling to critically evaluate their facilitating of Palestinian misinformation or unaware of their complicity in the phenomenon underscores the importance of a serious presentation of the nature and scope of the problem. What follows is a survey of the blatant distortions of truth foisted on the public by Palestinian spokesmen in April and May of 2002.

A. Jenin – what was destroyed?
One of the false contentions repeated by Palestinian spokesmen between March 29 and April 21, 2002, dubbed Operation Defensive Shield, concerned the extent of the damage to the Jenin refugee camp that resulted from the battle in the camp between Israeli soldiers and armed Palestinian forces. During and immediately following the battle at Jenin, Palestinian spokesmen stated, again and again – falsely, each time – that Israel was about to destroy or had already destroyed the entire refugee camp:

a. At a meeting of the Arab League, Nabil Sha'ath declared that Israeli "soldiers had received orders from the Israeli army chief of staff Shaul Mofaz for the complete destruction of Jenin…"(Deutsche Presse-Agentur, April 6)

b. Also on April 6, Hassan Abdel Rahman told CNN that Israel was performing "blanket bombing today of the cities of Nablus and Jenin, and it is on television."
[The U.S. Department of Defense defines "carpet bombing" (synonymous with "blanket bombing") as "The progressive distribution of a mass bomb load upon an area defined by designated boundaries, in such manner as to inflict damage to all portions thereof."]

c. A few days later, Saeb Erekat told CNN's Jim Clancy, "You know, the Jenin refugee camp is no longer in existence…"

d. Erekat repeated the charge one week later to CNN's Wolf Blitzer, stating: "There is no longer a refugee camp there. And maybe the [Israeli] defense minister and the prime minister of Israel want to deny what CNN is showing, that the camp was totally destroyed." (April 17)

In response to these Palestinian allegations, Israeli officials contended that only a small percentage of the Jenin refugee camp had been destroyed. The Israelis later backed up their claim with a set of "before-and-after" satellite photographs of Jenin, which clearly demonstrated that only about ten percent of the refugee camp had been destroyed during Operation Defensive Shield. Since that time, Palestinian spokesmen have ceased their proclamations of Jenin's total destruction, but they have yet to publicly acknowledge the falsity of their previous statements.

This abdication of responsibility by Palestinian spokesmen for their prior statements is not particularly surprising; it certainly does not serve their interests to admit that they had lied about the scope of the destruction in Jenin. More troubling, however, is the widespread media reluctance to challenge Palestinian spokesmen to account for the untruths they had previously circulated, a failure that will be evidenced repeatedly in this study. For instance, Hassan Abdel Rahman has never been confronted – in at least five CNN appearances since April 6 – regarding his patently false claim that Israel was involved in "blanket bombing" of the cities of Nablus and Jenin. Similarly, although Saeb Erekat told Wolf Blitzer on April 17 that the Jenin refugee camp had been totally destroyed, in four interviews with Erekat since that time, Blitzer has never once challenged Erekat with the transparent falsity of that April 17 statement.

B. Grave Lies
The first mention of mass burial appearing in the news in connection with Israel's Operation Defensive Shield concerned the situation in Ramallah on April 2. It was reported at the time that Palestinians – not Israelis – had been using a "mass grave" to bury their dead, since the local morgue was full. CNN, the Associated Press and Agence France Presse, among other news agencies, each released similar reports regarding this Palestinian-dug mass grave.

But on April 4, Hassan Abdel Rahman made the following statement on CNN:

Tell me, how is your security served, Mr. Gissin [advisor to Israeli Prime Minister], by not allowing the Palestinians to bury their dead, and bury them in mass graves? Remember when the last time mass graves were used? They were used in Kosovo. And Milosevic today is tried as a war criminal. Mr. Sharon is doing exactly the same thing. (CNN – Wolf Blitzer Reports, April 4)
Note how carefully Abdel Rahman words his statements about mass graves. He never specifically identifies who dug the mass graves for Palestinians. He does compare Milosevic's responsibility for the mass graves in Kosovo to Ariel Sharon's responsibility for mass graves for Palestinians, clearly implying that it is the Israelis who are burying Palestinians in mass graves, but Abdel Rahman never actually comes right out and says it.

However, on April 10, the Palestinian News Agency, WAFA, posted the following, shocking accusation on its Arabic-language website:

The invasive Israeli tanks, planes and bulldozers are demolishing the Jenin refugee camp house by house over the heads of their remaining residents…the heroic resistance men are still holding out…while the Israeli invasion army bulldozers are burying the martyrs in mass graves in order to conceal the massacre. (Translation by BBC Worldwide Monitoring)
Here, the accusation is explicitly leveled that Israelis were digging mass graves for Palestinians. It was not long before this baseless accusation became gospel for Palestinian spokesmen appearing in the mainstream media:

a. On April 11, CBS Evening News anchor Dan Rather reported that "Palestinian spokesman Saeb Erekat told this reporter [David Hawkins] tonight that the Israeli operation has not inflicted heavy damage on the radical Hamas and Islamic Jihad organizations. He also claims the Israelis have buried many Palestinians in mass graves. That has not been confirmed."

b. On April 12, United Press International quoted the Secretary-General of the Palestinian Authority, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, as saying "[that] thousands of Palestinians were either killed and buried in massive graves or smashed under houses destroyed in Jenin and Nablus."

c. Also on April 12, Hassan Abdel Rahman himself told CNN's Bill Hemmer:

And I assume that the president of the United States has not seen the massacres and the mass graves that occurred yesterday, or the day before, or in the last two weeks in Jenin and other areas.
d. On April 13, Agence France Presse reported in the name of Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo "that Israeli bulldozers had dug mass graves for around 500 Palestinians he said had been killed there, half of them women and children, he said."

e. On April 14, Nabil Sha'ath told CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "There has been a cover-up, and bodies have been taken away to clean up. The six days since Jenin massacre have been just a clean-up attempt, to cover up the massacres."

The next day, Sha'ath repeated his charge and amplified it, again to Blitzer on CNN, this time providing intricate details of how Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was attempting to hide the crime:

SHA'ATH: We don't know the exact number [of dead], because already a lot of the bodies have been snatched and buried elsewhere in unidentified graves that we learned about during the Jenin massacre. He [Sharon] took six days to perpetrate the massacre and six days for a cover-up. And he will not repeat what he has done in Sabra and Shatila. In Sabra and Shatila, the next morning the 4,000 bodies were still in view. And, therefore, the indictment was very clear. This time he, [sic] took six more days for a cleanup. He didn't allow anybody to come in. And he will only allow them after he has done the cover-up. We are facing a very, very serious crime.
f. At an April 16-17 United Nations convention concerning the "Question of Palestine," Sha'ath delivered an address in which he asked about Israel, "Why did they take bodies away in refrigerated trucks?" (Paraphrased version of Sha'ath speech, in official UN Press Release, April 16)

As it turns out, of course, Israel neither dug any mass grave for Palestinian dead nor transported any Palestinian dead anywhere. The only mass graves for Palestinians actually dug during Operation Defensive Shield – one in Ramallah and one in Jenin dug on April 19 – were dug by Palestinians. The April 15 statement of Israeli Defense Minister Ben-Eliezer, "We did not bury a single body, certainly not in a mass grave," has, by all accounts, been proven correct. Certainly, no evidence to the contrary has ever surfaced, despite the best efforts of Palestinians and concerned "humanitarian" organizations to locate just such evidence. As the Associated Press reported three weeks after Palestinians first accused Israel of transporting Palestinian dead in refrigerated trucks and burying them in mass graves, "No evidence has emerged to support either allegation." (May 5)

Perhaps the only aspect of this story as outrageous as the fictitious Palestinian accusations of mass graves quoted above is the decision of the news media to ignore the fact that the accusations were ever leveled to begin with. Of all the spurious statements cited above, those of Nabil Sha'ath stand out as being particularly scandalous. Sha'ath falsely accused Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of planning the "snatch"-ing and hiding of Palestinian corpses. Yet, although Nabil Sha'ath has appeared on CNN as a guest of Wolf Blitzer four times since his April 15 statement, Blitzer has asked Sha'ath about his "body-snatching" accusation exactly zero times. The similarly false statements of Erekat, Abdel Rahman, and Abed Rabbo have also escaped media scrutiny.

It is not wholly clear what motivated the media to ignore false Palestinian accusations about (non-existent) Israeli-dug mass graves. But one thing is clear: if there was a cover-up regarding mass graves, it was not Ariel Sharon who orchestrated it.

C. The Victims of Jenin
One issue relating to Operation Defensive Shield that the media did attempt to cover exhaustively and in considerable detail was the question of how many Palestinians were killed in Jenin and other towns during the operation and under what circumstances they died. Soon after the battle at Jenin began on April 2, Palestinian reports of horrific massacres and summary executions of civilians began to surface. By mid-April, Palestinian spokesmen were regularly speaking of Jenin as a catastrophe on par with the 1982 massacres of Arab civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. In order to present a coherent account of the myriad Palestinian claims regarding the human casualties of Jenin, it is useful to divide the Palestinian pronouncements into two broad categories according to subject matter (though some overlap does exist): 'number of casualties' and 'circumstances of death.' We will examine each category individually, reviewing the Palestinian assertions, which had a tendency to change as more facts became available, and the media's response to Palestinian claims.

1. The Number of Dead

No element of Operation Defensive Shield received as much attention as the number of people, or the presumed number of people, killed during the fighting at Jenin and other West Bank towns. To be sure, this focus was not in itself sinister; all civilized people value human life, and there is nothing dishonorable about reporting on alleged mass killing of innocents. However, the strategic media blitz launched by Palestinian spokesmen regarding the number of dead in Jenin was not a principled mobilization of public opinion in defense of civilian lives. Rather, as we will see, it was a slanderous campaign of libel – based solely on fabrications and unverified rumors – aimed at manipulating American foreign policy through generation of public sympathy on the basis of events that never happened.

It is difficult to say for certain who in the Palestinian camp initiated reports of Israeli mass killings of Palestinians, but the following appears to be the sequence in which the Palestinian myth evolved:

a. On April 4, Secretary-General of the Palestinian Authority, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, complained in an interview on Palestinian television about "…world silence over the massacres being perpetrated against the Palestinian people." (BBC Worldwide Monitoring)

b. On April 6, Nabil Sha'ath delivered a speech at a meeting of the Arab League, in which he charged that "a 'massacre' was underway in the Palestinian refugee camp of Jenin." (Deutsche Presse-Agentur) He also "compared Israeli actions in the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus to the 1982 massacres of hundreds of Palestinans…" (The Associated Press)

c. Also on April 6, Hassan Abdel Rahman complained on CNN about Israel's "war of annihilation against the Palestinian people." He later claimed, "There is a blanket bombing today of the cities of Nablus and Jenin, and it is on television. I'm not lying. Look at the reports coming from the region. There are hundreds of people killed…"

d. On April 7, Abdel Rahman told NBC's Tim Russert, "The victims so far has been over 250 Palestinians killed, many of them are children and women."

e. On April 10, Sha'ath claimed, "We have 300 martyrs in Jenin in the last few days." (Agence France Presse)

f. April 10 was a particularly busy day for Saeb Erekat. He made four statements regarding casualties in Jenin and Nablus, all broadcast on CNN.

At 10 AM – "I think the real terror is being practiced against the Palestinians… When we were in the president's office it came to our knowledge that the numbers of people massacred in the refugee camp… they have committed a major crime today in the old city of Nablus and in the Jenin refugee camp. We believe the number of killed is more than 500 people there."

At 5 PM – "…the numbers I am receiving today is that the numbers of killed could reach 500 since the Israeli offensive began."

At 8 PM, Erekat sounded more certain of his number – "I'm afraid to say that the number of Palestinian dead in the Israeli attacks have reached more than 500 now. And I think the number may increase once we discover the extent of the damage and the massacres committed in -- particular in the Jenin refugee camp and in the whole city of Nablus."

At 10 PM, Erekat filed a new accusation – "Some people called me from Jenin, the Israelis are having three major graveyards. They are burying more than 300 Palestinian in Jenin refugee camp alone."

Erekat did tell the Associated Press on April 10 that he could not verify the number of Palestinian dead, but one wonders why he seldom, if ever, bothered to mention this fact in his many television appearances.

g. Erekat echoed his charges, though less specifically, on April 12, suggesting that American Secretary of State Colin Powell tour Jenin "to see the Israeli crimes and massacres that left hundreds of Palestinians dead…" (Agence France Presse)

h. Also on April 12, Abdel Rahman emphatically restated Palestinian reports of the number of dead in Jenin. He told CNN's Aaron Brown that "…as a matter of principal [sic], everyone in this world knows that Israel committed a massacre in Jenin in the last week, 400 to 500 people, mostly civilians, that were killed by the Israeli army." And later in the same interview, "I am saying that there were massacre committed against the Palestinians, 400 to 500 Palestinians, mainly civilians, children, men, and women killed by Israel."

i. In the West Bank, a more drastic charge was being leveled. On April 12, as noted above, United Press International quoted the Secretary-General of the Palestinian Authority, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, as saying "[that] thousands of Palestinians were either killed and buried in massive graves or smashed under houses destroyed in Jenin and Nablus."

By April 14, Israel had begun to counter the Palestinian claims, and Palestinian spokesmen began to absorb some heat from the media concerning their figures of hundreds (or thousands) of dead in Jenin and other areas. At first, the Palestinians stuck to their claim.

j. On April 14, Zalman Shoval, foreign affairs advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister, told CNN regarding Jenin, "Obviously, there was no massacre. Probably about 60-65 people were killed." In response, Hassan Abdel Rahman retorted, "Mr. Shoval is really perpetuating a lie when he says there is 65 people killed, only."

k. Abdel Rahman was just as insistent the next evening with Fox News' Greta Van Susteren:

VAN SUSTEREN: Israelis say 100 terrorists were killed, and I've seen numbers from Palestinians saying as many as 500 women and children. Who is lying?

RAHMAN: Definitely, it is the Israelis who are lying.

l. On April 14, CNN's Bill Hemmer challenged Saeb Erekat about his evidence for the number of dead in Jenin:

HEMMER: Where are you getting the evidence that shows 500 people were killed there?

EREKAT: I don't have evidence, I just really cannot be very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I said that.

But Erekat's admitted lack of evidence did not deter him from telling Wolf Blitzer on April 17 that an international commission must be sent to Jenin "to decide how many people were massacred. And we say the number will not be less than 500."

The Palestinian house of cards began to teeter after April 16, when Israel allowed international aid workers to enter the Jenin refugee camp. As witness after independent witness testified that there was no evidence whatsoever of widespread Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians, it was becoming apparent that Palestinian reports of hundreds of dead Palestinians were grossly inflated. Finally, on May 1, The Washington Times broke the story that exposed the Palestinian claims for the contrivance that they truly were:

Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation….The official Palestinian body count…was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

With these two sentences, one month's-worth of statements delivered by official Palestinian spokesmen had been exposed – for anyone willing to look – as pure, unadulterated propaganda.

However, as we have already seen, the American media harbors a tendency to turn a blind eye to Palestinian fibbing. In the case of the false Palestinian death toll in Jenin, this predilection manifested itself once again.

m. On May 2, CNN's Jim Clancy did his best impression of a "confrontation" with Hassan Abdel Rahman by reading a letter from a viewer in the television audience:

[CLANCY:] "How about an apology to Israel for the wildly exaggerated reports? Would that not be fair? How about describing it as the massacre that never was"? This was specifically aimed at the media, but it could also be asked of the Palestinians, like yourself, that went on television, and charged massacre?

RAHMAN: …we never said that 3,000 were killed...Even today, no one knows the exact number of people who were killed…The question of massacre is, how many people do you need to kill in order to call it a massacre? Israel calls the killing of 27 people a massacre, and they are right. I call the killing of 20 Palestinians a massacre also. And I am right…The problem is not the number. I am talking here about the methods. The methods that were used by Israel in the refugee camp and elsewhere…

And that was it. Abdel Rahman had performed his penance and was absolved. Clancy did not find it relevant to mention, among other points:

that, contrary to Abdel Rahman's claim, Palestinian representatives had claimed that Israel had killed "thousands" in Jenin (as quoted twice above).
Abdel Rahman's bogus assertion – aired on CNN on April 12 – that "as a matter of principal [sic], everyone in this world knows that Israel committed a massacre in Jenin in the last week, 400 to 500 people…"
that on April 12, contrary to his current statement, Abdel Rahman did believe that "the number" of dead in Jenin was the problem, and not "the methods" of the Israeli army.
Abdel Rahman's April 14 claim – aired on CNN – that Israeli representative Zalman Shoval "is really perpetuating a lie when he says there is 65 people killed, only."
What was the next question Clancy posed to Abdel Rahman? Ironically enough – Are the Palestinians ready "to get a government together based not on terrorism or corruption"?

Abdel Rahman faced similarly impotent questioning on CNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews, although Matthews tried a bit harder – but equally ineffectively – to challenge Abdel Rahman about previous statements. CNN's Paula Zahn and Wolf Blitzer fared no better, with Abdel Rahman or any other Palestinian spokesman. Most newscasters simply excused the Palestinian spokesmen for the wholesale invention of hundreds of massacred Palestinians or – like Jim Clancy – administered a gentle tap on the wrist.

2. The Circumstances of Death

The corollary to Palestinian claims throughout the month of April that Israel had killed hundreds of Palestinians in Operation Defensive Shield was the notion that the hundreds of Palestinians killed were mostly defenseless civilians who were not involved in any sort of military conflict with Israeli forces. This was the implicit message of the ubiquitous Palestinian declaration that Israel had committed a "massacre" in Jenin. It was also the implicit meaning of the constant comparisons drawn by Palestinian spokesmen between the events in Jenin and the 1982 massacre of hundreds of Arab civilians in Lebanon. But we need not rely solely on implications; on numerous occasions, Palestinian spokesmen explicitly charged that the hundreds of Palestinians massacred by Israel at Jenin were largely civilians, killed not in a battlefield but, as Saeb Erekat put it, in "the killing fields." (CNN April 10)

a. On April 6, Hassan Abdel Rahman declared on CNN that "Israel is waging a war of annihilation against the Palestinian people."

b. On April 7, Abdel Rahman told CNN, "So what you have here is an all-out war directed against every single Palestinian man, woman and child, and it is not a police operation to arrest a few people as Mr. Lancry or Israeli spokesmen want us to believe."

c. Also on April 7, Abdel Rahman told NBC's Tim Russert, "This is a war conducted by the largest military in the Middle East and probably one of the largest in the world. The victims so far has been over 250 Palestinians killed, many of them are children and women."

d. On April 7, Betsy Pisik of The Washington Times quoted Saeb Erekat as saying, "This is not fighting between armies, but a massacre in Jenin camp."

e. On April 10, Abdel Rahman informed CNN, "You know, there were tens of thousands of Israeli soldiers against civilian population. We do not have an army there. The most that any one Palestinian has, probably, a gun…"

f. On April 12, Agence France Presse quoted Erekat as requesting that Colin Powell visit Jenin "to see the Israeli crimes and massacres that left hundreds of Palestinians dead, including children, women and old people."

g. Also on April 12, Erekat told the Associated Press that Israel was hiding the bodies of civilians killed in Jenin. In his own words, "They want to hide their crimes, the bodies of the little children and women."

h. As quoted above, Abdel Rahman told CNN's Aaron Brown on April 12, "But as a matter of principal [sic], everyone in this world knows that Israel committed a massacre in Jenin in the last week, 400 to 500 people, mostly civilians, that were killed by the Israeli army…" He later stated, "I am saying that there were massacre committed against the Palestinians, 400 to 500 Palestinians, mainly civilians, children, men and women killed by Israel."

i. On April 13, Erekat, on CNN, endorsed a Palestinian Authority statement released earlier that day. Part of that statement reads as follows:

We firmly condemn the crimes and massacres committed by the Israeli occupation forces against civilians and Palestinian refugees in Nablus, the Jenin camp, the church in Bethlehem and other Palestinian zones in the past two weeks. (Agence France Presse)
j. On April 14, Nabil Sha'ath remarked to CNN's Wolf Blitzer, "But you've just asked Mr. Peres about the cover-up of the massacres of mostly women and children, and not only fighters, as the Israelis claim."

Now, at first glance, it might seem a tad trivial to harp on the manner in which Palestinian spokesmen fabricated the defenselessness of those killed in a massacre that was fictitious to begin with. After all, once we already know that there was no slaughter of hundreds of Palestinians in Jenin, what difference does it make who the people were who weren't slaughtered? The answer is – quite a bit. As we have seen in Section C1, once it became apparent that Israel had not murdered hundreds of Palestinians, the Palestinian spokesmen began to change the story. It wasn't the number of people killed that constituted the "massacre," the Palestinians now claimed (despite their previous reliance on the number of dead to prove their claims of a "massacre"), it was the methods that Israel used, the "indiscriminate killing," as Abdel Rahman told CNN on April 16.

At this point, it becomes very important indeed to examine exactly what took place in Jenin. Were the Palestinian deaths – true, not hundreds of deaths, but deaths nonetheless – the result of a wanton Israeli killing spree? Had the Israelis slaughtered even fifty Palestinian civilians? Or could it be that, as the Israelis claimed all along, Jenin was the site of a fierce battle between heavily armed combatants? As shown above, the Palestinian position was very clear. There was no battle. Israel was recklessly mowing down Palestinians, mostly civilians.

k. When Israeli foreign affairs advisor Danny Ayalon dared suggest to CNN on April 13 that Jenin was heavily booby-trapped with bombs and explosives, making it difficult for Israel to allow international observers into the area, Hassan Abdel Rahman was understandably incensed. Civilians, after all, generally do not plant explosives:

[RAHMAN:] What Danny Ayalon said about Jenin is an outright lie. How can he say that there are booby traps in the refugee camp of Jenin when the people in the refugee camp are still there? This is absolute nonsense.
l. Abdel Rahman was equally insistent with CNN's Larry King the following evening, maligning Israeli consul general in New York Alon Pinkas for suggesting that Jenin was booby-trapped:

[PINKAS:] What's been stopping them from getting in until now is the fact that the Palestinians booby-trapped many buildings, including buildings incidentally in which families, whole families, entire families were still in rooms.
They have booby-trapped the entrances to allies. They have booby- trapped garbage cans. They have booby-trapped an ambulance. So it's going to take -- it took us time before we could clear those buildings and those access roads, in order to allow for the humanitarian aid to pass…

KING: Mr. Rahman, you want to respond to the statement about Jenin.

RAHMAN: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I have heard liars in the past, but like Mr. Pinkas I have never seen, because he is accusing us of killing our own people for heaven's sake… RAHMAN: You are an absolute liar, and I don't hesitate to tell you this on television, because you are telling...
Despite such protestations by Palestinians, evidence began to pile up confirming the Israeli contention that Jenin had indeed been the site of a desperate battle between heavily armed fighters among booby-trapped buildings. The most persuasive evidence were numerous Arabic-press interviews with Palestinians who had fought in Jenin. The following are excerpts from two such interviews (quotes and translation by MEMRI, April 23):

m. Sheikh Jamal Abu Al-Hija, a Hamas commander in Jenin, told Qatari television channel Al-Jazeera, "[We placed] explosive devices on the roads and in the houses; surprises [await] the occupation forces...The truth is that the fighting is being conducted from neighborhood to neighborhood, like guerilla warfare. The Mujahideen are using automatic rifles, explosive devices, and hand grenades…"

n. "Omar," an Islamic Jihad bomb maker, discussed Palestinian tactics in Jenin with Al- Ahram Weekly, an Egyptian government-sponsored newspaper:

"Of all the fighters in the West Bank we were the best prepared…We started working on our plan: to trap the invading soldiers and blow them up from the moment the Israeli tanks pulled out of Jenin last month…We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the camp…We cut off lengths of main water pipes and packed them with explosives and nails. Then we placed them about four meters apart throughout the houses – in cupboards, under sinks, in sofas."

These Palestinian accounts – and there were many of them – labeling Jenin as the site of an intense battle were further corroborated when international aid organizations and diplomats who visited Jenin uniformly declined to classify what took place in Jenin as a "massacre" of civilians.

Under the weight of actual evidence, the Palestinian version of events was exposed, once again, to be entirely imaginary. And, once again, the media declined to hold the Palestinians accountable. No tough questions concerning Palestinian allegations that Israel had deliberately killed civilians. No repercussions for Hassan Abdel Rahman, who falsely branded two Israeli diplomats as unscrupulous prevaricators. And no scrutiny of Saeb Erekat's outrageous revisionism on April 25, when, after firsthand accounts of the battle in Jenin began to surface, he claimed, "Nobody said there wasn't fighting…We said that because the people decided to stand up and fight the massacres occurred." (Global News Wire)

D. Conclusion
On June 24, President Bush spoke hopefully about his vision for the future, in which Israel and a Palestinian state will be "living side by side in peace and security." But the President also called for specific Palestinian reforms that must be instituted prior to the creation of a Palestinian state, reforms meant to ensure that the eventual Palestinian state will be "a practicing democracy, based on tolerance and liberty." One phrase that the President used neatly encapsulates the essence of all the recommendations he advised the Palestinians to implement; that phrase is "honest government." All of Bush's prerequisites to a Palestinian state – his call for a Palestinian leadership that rejects terror, respects the law, organizes free elections, respects an independent judiciary, spends its money transparently, encourages private enterprise, etc. – basically come down to that single element, the notion that Palestinian self-government must reflect the values of public service and accountability that all democratic countries demand their elected leaders to uphold.

President Bush's counsel to the Palestinians stands in stark contrast to the rather odious status quo in which corrupt, unaccountable Palestinian government officials autocratically rule, rob, and lie to the public. The official Palestinian spokesmen fall squarely into this category of culprits. As we have demonstrated at length, Palestinian spokesmen – Saeb Erekat, Nabil Sha'ath, and Hassan Abdel Rahman in particular – will spin any lie, deny any fact, and denounce any person in order to protect the public image of the Palestinian Authority, a government that, as President Bush rather diplomatically termed it, is "compromised by terror" and rife with "official corruption."

The American media does honest Palestinians and the American public a fundamental disservice by providing a platform upon which these unctuous – if eloquent – Palestinian spokesmen broadcast their litany of inane and spurious rhetoric. Put slightly differently: The same individuals who falsely accused Israel of imprisoning Palestinians in concentrations camps, massacring hundreds of Palestinian civilians, and fabricating evidence of PA involvement in terrorism cannot possibly be trusted for material information regarding Palestinian government reforms, a PA-crackdown on terror, or any other significant issue in which a lie might better serve the current Palestinian government than would the truth.

Now is the time for more responsible Palestinian leadership to assert itself. The fate of proven Palestinian liars should be no different than that of Kenneth Lay, John Rigas, Bernard Ebbers, and the other corporate gangsters whose reputations have been dashed by their betrayal of public trust. The current cast of Palestinian characters is plagued by corruption and deceit. It's time for them to be swept aside. Surely the best face of Palestinian aspirations lies elsewhere.




Copyright © 2002 by the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. All rights reserved. This column may be reprinted without prior permission.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:58 PM

What a sad and disgusting posting from a Zionist who can't even acknowledge the death and destruction meted out by Israel at Jenin.....a refugee camp on the illegally occupied West Bank.


The Israeli tanks met ferocious resistance as they smashed their way into the ancient souk and refugee centre that makes up the centre of Jenin.

Entrance by journalists was forbidden and many individual war crimes were committed by Israeli soldiers .It was the Israelis who first indicated that a massacre of civilians had taken place in the city.

The IDF spokesman Brig General Ron Kitrey said early in the invasion that there were "apparently hundreds " of dead.The International Red Cross and other humanitarian organisations were also kept out of Jenin and the Israelis were keen to bury the dead in a mass grave in the Jordan Valley which would dishonour the dead.

The ruined ground of the city centre were littered with the remains of ground to air missiles [made in the USA].

Two Observer journalists who entered the killing zone later said that of the 50 identifiable Palestinian dead at least half were children,women or the elderly.
One man 37 year old Saeb Feyed was mentally and physically disabled and could only move in a wheelchair.He was killed when an armoured bulldozer collapsed a house on him.There were many other individual stories of death and destruction in Jenin.

Whn does an atrocity become a massacre??

The source of the above info is Robert Fisk's brilliant book "The Great War For Civilisation ..The Conquest of the Middle East ".
pub Fouth Estate 2005
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:11 PM

here is the UN version ...

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo's smarter brother
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:35 PM

Fisk has long been discredited as an anti-Israel propagandist.

Jenin: the "massacre" that never was.

At first, the PLO claimed 5,000 Palestinians were killed.

Then they claimed 1,000.

Then they claimed 500.

In fact, 52 Palestinians were killed at Jenin along with 23 Israelis.

Most of the Palestinians killed were active terrorists. Hugo's statement, or Fisk's, whatever, that "at least half were children, women or the elderly," is another big lie repeated so often that small minds believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM

SubjecSubject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham - PM
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

From an excellent article in English on the Spiegel Magazine site from Germany.

Islamism has attacked Israel from both the south and the north and Israel has no choice but to react. But there is more to it than that. Israel's military operation is important for the entire Western world. Until 2005, Islamism was able to successfully mislead the West into thinking that the "occupation" of Gaza and southern Lebanon was the cause of the terror attacks carried out against Israel. Now we know better: Islamism isn't out to change Israeli policy in the region, Islamism is out to completely eradicate the country of Israel. The same strategy is being used on a larger scale: The Middle East conflict is not the cause of Tehran's conflict with Western secularism. It is merely a convenient alibi.

Which kind of puts the lie to CarolC's mantra about the "occupation."


How does an article in a magazine putting forth an OPINION "put(s) the lie" to anything?

I think that you are an idiot. I'm sure that you don't believe that you are. Apparently though, if I can get my opinion of you published in a German magazine, will that prove that you are indeed an idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

I do wonder that posters can point to UNSC (not: UN) resolution 242 in one post and argue for the destruction of Israel in another.

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force

This too is part of the UNSC resolution 242. I'm for it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:40 PM

Hey Jack!

How's Carol? Has she recovered from her meltdown in that thread that got yanked.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo...Jenin
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM

The two British journalists who entered the ruins of Jenin behind the Israeli troops were Phil Reeves and Justin Huggler.They concluded that nearly half of the 50 or so Palestinians were children, women or the elderly.

The Israeli journalist Arie Caspi wrote later

"Ok so there wasn't a massacre.Irael only shot some children,brought a house crashing down on an old man,rained cement blocks on an invalid who couldn't get out in time and used locals as human shieldsagainst bombsand prevented aid getting to the sick and wounded .That's really not a massacre ,and there's really no need for a commission of enquiry ...whether run by us or by the goyim.

The insanity gripping Israel seems to have beyond our morals...many Israelis believe that as long as we do not practice systematic mass murder our place in heaven is secure.Every time some Palestinian or Scandinavian fool yells "Holocaust!" we respond in am angry huff: This is a holocaust? So a few people were killed ,200,300,some very young,some very old.Does anyone see gas chambers or crematoria? "

So when does an atrocity become a massacre?

hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

Something just occurred to me.

Perhaps if the Jews had mounted a terrorist resistance to the Nazis, the holocaust would never have happened.

A little food for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM

holy crap dianavan.

i know it's hard to grow a brain at this late date

but give it a try anyway for cripesake.

all it's useful for at this point is a hatrack.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM

Four United Nations observers were killed in an Israeli air strike on their observation post in southern Lebanon earlier today.The air strike succeeded where fourteen Israeli artillery shells had failed earlier in the day.A rescue team was also attacked by the Israeli military.
ALBERT

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM

"Perhaps if the Jews had mounted a terrorist resistance to the Nazis, the holocaust would never have happened."

Ah yes, the old blame the victim routine - those goddamn Jews, it's their own fault 6 million got incinerated, they didn't mount a resistance.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 07:07 PM

Something just occurred to me.

Perhaps if the Jews had mounted a terrorist resistance to the Nazis, the holocaust would never have happened.

A little food for thought.

They did Dianavan. They were called partisans, resitance, and freedom fighters by the allies; They were called criminals, vandals, muderers and possibly terrorists by the NAZIs. Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:09 PM

And if that stupid Jewish boyfriend hadn't called her a "pretty little shiksa," we all would have been spared years of this crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:10 PM

Why do so many Americans seem to support Israel in the east mediteranean region but the IRA in Ireland?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:50 PM

Oh, great, Israel seems to have targetted a U.N. observer's post, killing four U.N. observers:

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan has called on Israel to investigate what he termed the "apparently deliberate targeting'' by Israeli defence forces of a UN observer post in Lebanon.

The Israeli air strike killed four UN military observers who were part of the UN peacekeeping mission in southern Lebanon, UN and Lebanese officials said.

I, for one American, am NOT in support of what Israel is doing, at this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:06 PM

I, for one Canadian, am NOT in support of what Israel is doing and what the Hezbollah is doing , at this point.

BTW, one of the UN observer casualties is Canadian ... a peacekeeper ..... I'm not blaming it on the Israelis and I'm not blaming it on the Hezbpllah ... there has been way, way too much blaming going on in this world ... blaming doesn't solve problems, it only promotes hate ... just more understanding, less greed is equired ... but, alas we are only human, and we only fail ourselves.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

bobad - I am not blaming the Jews for not resisting the Nazis but I am trying to help the Zionists to understand the meaning of "put yourself in the other guy's shoes."

JtS responded that some Jews did resist and.... "They were called criminals, vandals, muderers and possibly terrorists by the NAZIs."

Thats the comparison I was looking for.

The term terrorist was probably not widely used in those days but the similarity is that whoever 'fights back'(with what little they have in the way of arms) are usually considered criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:07 PM

I am not surprised that the Israelis killed U.N. observers. Like I said, unfortunately, they think EVERYONE is their enemy. Thats a very dangerous mind set.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:22 PM

You are correct EVERYONE is the enemy ... some Hezbellah militiant firing the rocket that killed that 15 year old girl in Haifa thinks all Israelis are the enemy.

Please note I called the rocket firing guy a 'militant', not a terrorist .. as a person fighting back is definately not a terrorist, is he. He is just a hapless person fighting back for his right to have a peaceful life in his own country, just as the fighter pilot who put his sights on the UN observation point is fighting back for his right to have a peaceful life ...... this whole thing is a fine example of how blame, hatred, ignorance, distrust, greed takes over to the spilling of blood for such a simple thing as black and white on the want for peace.

so go on dianavan ... keep lashing out, as you have all the answers on what is right and what is wrong ... and you know the elusive road to peace.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:50 PM

From Canada Content, "Already forgotten in the press is Israel's behavior leading up to events in Lebanon. Israel had blown up an entire family on a Gaza beach and carried out a number of other killings and assassinations. It killed about twenty innocent people in a week or so. The pitiful efforts of people in Gaza to respond to the outrages were met by more killing and a partial invasion. Most of the cabinet of Palestine was kidnapped, and the elected Prime Minister was openly threatened with assassination. "

Robo said, "Attacking Israelis on their own territory by a well planned and executed attack is an act of war. The Israelis want their captured soldier back."

That Israeli soldier was in Lebanese territory not Israel. In addition, it should be considered a kidnapping since he was not captured by the Lebanese Army.

The over-reaction by Israel is an act of war and I hope that moderate Israelis will begin to question the actions of their government since Israel seems to have no respect for anyone, not even the Red Cross or the U.N.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM

So far things are working out well for Hezbollah. From being considered Syrian stooges, they can now assume the posture of champions of Islam against a mighty war machine. Similarly, Assad in Syria is doing well-- as a secular ruler he can support Hezbollah--and burnish his religious credentials against the Moslem Brotherhood in Syria.

Not working out very well for Lebanon.   To say the least.

Or Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:10 AM

sIx, thanks for pointing out the NOT supporting Hezbollah, too. Of course, I agree with you on that, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,James
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:52 AM

The invasion of the Lebanon is not going well for the Israelis. Despite their huge miliary and technological advantage the Lebanese fighters operating in small groups are holding their own in the hills north of the border.

The Israelis have flattened the country before the eyes of the world.

They have made war against the entire civilian population-women and children included.Their targets have included ambulance medics,infants,UN observers and the elderly.

Across the world there is a sense of outrage and public opinion is beginning to be actively mobilised.

Bush looks like the callous and ignorant warmonger he is sending yet more huge bombs to resupply Israel days into the invasion.Blair likewise looks like the poodle of the neocons [Yo Blair indeed!].

Across the Middle East there is a huge difference between the rulers and the ruled over what is happening in Palestine and the Lebanon. The "street"is seething at the cowardly role of the local rulers who are deemed to be in the pocket of the USA.

In particular the tensions inside Egypt must be mounting with people cursing Mubarrak..and for many it is Egypy and its working class that holds the key to what will happen in he region.

Hezbollah has won the support,perhaps reluctantly ,of those christians,muslims and secularists who have suffered at the hands of the neighbourhood bully and who have longed to see someone stand up to Israel.Nassrallah is popular at the moment and the attempt by the USA and Israel to remodel the Middle East is going to prove very,very difficult. Iraq is a total mess and the carnage is spreading.Bush is pouring petrol on the flames.

And the fate of the captured soldiers seems to have been forgotten in the rush to remodel, and in the birth pangs of the new order. One thing is for sure there will be no peace for the wicked and no justice for the innocent.
James

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Si
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:03 AM

Fourteen leading charities and the main muslim organisation in the UK have condemned Tony Blair ,the prime minister of Britain ,for his refusal to back the UN call for a ceasefire in the Lebanon.The charities include Save The Children,Amnesty and Oxfam while the letter has also been signed by the Muslim Council of Britain.
Si

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:59 AM

Again: Where is the Lebanese army?
How many thousands of rocket attacks must Israel endure?

The world sees an entrenched terrorist organization too strong for the Lebanese Army on its home turf.

None of the folks wringing their hands in pain for the Arab victims only have granted Israel the right to borders, let alone the right to defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:28 AM

A right to borders?

Israel does not respect borders.

That kidnapped Israeli soldier was in Lebanese territory not Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:05 AM

...and now Israel has pissed off China. One of the U.N. observers that were killed was Chinese. Way to go, Israel!

From Forbes -

"'The Chinese side... demands that the Israeli side open a comprehensive investigation, apologize to the Chinese side and the victim's family and help the Chinese side in carrying out the mourning activities,' Haim was told, according to Liu."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Neutral observer
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:48 AM

just speaking for the silent majority in the west, israel has lost all sympathy now and people are just bored with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:06 AM

We can now see why Hezbollah and Hamas started the war. It is great propaganda. To see how great, there has already been some dipsh#t start a thread that WAS extremely anti-Jewish. It was closed by Joe.

For those who are historically challenged, Jews DID resist. Start with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. People who had no weapons were able to hold off the Third Reich for over a month. (France fell in lless than six weeks.) Read about the Treblinka Uprising, also.

However, the main difference is this: The Jews did not start the Secong World War. Hexbollah and Hamas DID start the war that is presently going on in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Neutral observer
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:10 AM

it is not accurate to say hezzbollah or hamas started this war. that would be accept the idea that israel was obliged to bomb the hell out of a neighbouring state following the capture of 2 of it's soldiers - a relatively minor incident in the bigger middle east picture.

to me, the middle east is a question of demographics. the state of israel is flanked by arab-islamic states on all sides and is in a minority position which is becoming weaker with every day that passes. the populations in these neighbouring states are booming and israel must understand that co-existance is a necessary reality. it's a simple numbers game. if you accept that, it makes you realise how absurd israel's current policy is. only US support so far has helped israel to maintain an isolationist position. but in reality, this is a false position which cannot be sustained in the long-term.

it's fairly clear that israel's long-term future depends on peace and political stability in the region. that is what ariel sharon realised at the end of his life after years of bloody-minded resistance. it is a shame to see his positive work he did for peace at the end of his political career undone so dramatically and so quickly by Ehud Olmert. His inexperience and short-sighted approach is doing infinite damage to israel's own longer future.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:08 AM

Praying for Hummus, Getting Hamas

A former Israeli peace activist explains why he has laid down his olive branch and is prepared to grab for his rifle.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:09 AM

Two soldiers were captured by Hezbollah on a border post on July 12. Hezbollah kept telling the world how keen it was to return the soldiers in a prisoner swap.

Hundreds of dead in Lebanon, at least 1,000 severely injured and more than half a million refugees -- all because Israel is not ready to sit down at the negotiating table. We now know from reports in the US media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year.

At least 2,000 Hezbollah rockets have already been fired into Israel while the army's bombardments have so far destroyed a further 2,000 rockets. Northern Israel has already received a fifth of Hezbollah's arsenal. So far some 400 Lebanese civilians are reported dead -- at least a third of them children. From the images coming out of Lebanon's hospitals, many more children have survived but with terrible burns or disabling injuries.

In the latest emerging news from Lebanon, human rights groups are accusing Israel of violating international law and using cluster grenades, which kill indiscriminately. There are reports that Israel has been firing illegal incendiary bombs. The breakdown of the smaller number of deaths of Israelis at the hands of Hezbollah -- 42 -- show that more soldiers have been killed than civilians.
Hezbollah's rockets have been targeted overwhelming at strategic locations: the northern economic hub of Haifa, its satellite towns and the array of military sites across the Galilee.

Hezbollah's fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran. They belong to and are strongly supported by the Shiite community, nearly half Lebanon's population, and many other Lebanese. They have families, friends, and neighbors living alongside them in the country's south and the neighborhoods of Beirut who believe Hezbollah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel's regular onslaughts.

One need only look at the images of the victims of its strikes against residential neighborhoods, cars, ambulances, and factories to see why most of the dead being extracted from the rubble are civilians.

more here

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:22 AM

Tweleve Palestinians were killed and 40 injured in multiple attacks by Israeli armed forces in eastern Gaza city yesterday.
The dead included a toddler,a three year old girl and a 17 year old boy.Among the injured were two journalists.
Six fighters were also among the dead.
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:40 AM

Yesterday's killing of the 4 UN observers by the Israeli military is not the first time that a UN base has ben attacked by the Israelis.

In April 1996 The Israeli military shelled a small UN base at Qana in South Lebanon .The base was packed with Lebanese refugees fleeing Israeli attacks and the shells exploded amongst them.

The result was a horror that defies words.

Some 105 refugees-men ,women and children were killed by the explosions and hundreds of others were injured ,many seriously. This has what has happened in Lebanon in the rcent past:it is still happening today.Is it any wonder that Hezbollah is gaining support for its armed resistance?
david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:52 AM

Three things to correct your post of 8:09.
1) Two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped, while eight were killed in that same action. Why does Hizbullah get to decide what the outcome of that action should be?
2) For six years Hizbullah has periodically lobbed rockets into northern Israel and a kidnapping or murder here or there, getting only the 'measured' response that many here think is Israel's only proper response. Even a high place Hizbullah leader says his group is surprised at the intensity of the Israel. Well, maybe Hizbullah went to the wrong page on the terrorist playbook once to often.
3)I don't kow how many people have been casualties on each side; I suspect nobody does as I haven't seen the same number stated by any responsible reports. Whatever the number, it is way too high and tragic.
But to compare ratios of fighters to civilians is misleading. Most Lebanese civilian casualties are from their proximity to Hizbullah arms; most Israeli casualties are nowhere near the Israeli army or arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:55 AM

I meant to say that Hizbullah is surprised at the intensity if the Israel response (see #1 above).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:55 AM

a colleagues' aunt has been murdered by a bomb in beirut, and several other family members badly injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:41 AM

Someone's 15 year old daughter was killed by a rocket bomb in Haifa yesterday ..... regardless if innocent casualties are Lebanese or Israeli, they still are the tragic victims of war ... there are no good guys, or bad guys in the civilian casualties of war ... let's don't forget this.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:44 AM

Israel does not respect borders.

That kidnapped Israeli soldier was in Lebanese territory not Israel.

With that statement dianavan removes any doubt that she is an outright, baldfaced liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:30 AM

At the heart of the Lebanon crisis lie the lethal mistakes of George Bush (J. Freedland in THE GUARDIAN)

But the record of failure... began in the president's first week, when Bush decided he would not repeat what he perceived as his predecessor's mistake by allowing his presidency to be mired in the fruitless search for Israeli-Palestinian peace. Even though Clinton had got tantalisingly close, Bush decided to drop it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:33 AM

With that statement dianavan removes any doubt that she is an outright, baldfaced liar.

Actually, dianavan is a parrot for liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM

True.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,David..in defence of dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM

In Defence of Dianavan!
It is perfectly obvious that Israel has no respect for borders!

In 1956 Israeli paratroops took part in the invasion of Egypt along with British and French forces.Thousands of Egyptians in Port Said were killed.

Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank and the Golan Heights since 1967 and shows absolutely no sign of returning them to their legal owners , Palestine and Syris respectively.

In 1982 Israel destroyed the Lebanon. Some 20 000 Lebanese were killed in that invasion and Beirut was destroyed ....just as it has been during the past few weeks. In addition the Israelis masterminded the slaughter at Sabra and shatila refugee camps by Phalangist right wing murderers.Job well done said the commander of the Israeli forces the next day despite guarantees being given to the Palestinians in the camps.Some 2000 were killed there and many women raped.

In addition Israel has raided into the Lebanon on numerous other occasions to asassinate,blow up and kidnap Lebanese people.In 1996 the Israeli military attacked a UN base at Qana in southern Lebanon with artillery fire killing over a hundred refugees in a mass slaughter.Over one hundred others were injured.

The present invasion is a bloody disgrace ,almost unbelievable that at the start of the 21st century one of the most powerful states in the world can bomb another country into the Stone Age.This is an act of barbarism that deserves a war crimes tribunal.

Of course the other border it had no repect for is the land that it has stolen repeatedly from the Palestinian people who are still resisting the takeover of their country by an armed and mainly European people!
David

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM

I stand corrected.

I'm not sure where I got that info about the Israeli soldier being in Lebanese territory. I'll keep googling to see where I got that idea.

In the meantime, I found this from Aritz:

"Israel routinely crosses the border into Gaza by air and occasional ground and armored troops, for their own operations."

.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:27 PM

From Forbes:

"The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

freda,

"Hezbollah's rockets have been targeted overwhelming at strategic locations: the northern economic hub of Haifa, its satellite towns and the array of military sites across the Galilee. "


The UNGUIDED, area mass bombardment rockets that they have been randomly firing at civilian areas are "targeted overwhelming at strategic locations:" ?   



I guess you did not note the ball bearing holes in all the pictures of rocket attacks on Israel- Great for killing and maiming people ( definitely "anti-personnel") but of little use against any military ( "strategic" target.


Can I please get some of whatever you are smoking?????



"of its strikes against residential neighborhoods, cars, ambulances, and factories to see why most of the dead being extracted from the rubble are civilians. "


So, you are willing to condemn HEZBOLLAH for illegally using "residential neighborhoods, cars, ambulances, and factories" as launch areas for their illegal area mass bombardment rocket launches, which Israel responds to with targets artillary and guided bonbs?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM

oops- targeted, not targets in the last line...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

From Forbes:

"The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them."

What Forbes? You don't provide much of an attribution so I assume you're quoting Billy Forbes, a kid I knew in grade school who kept getting sent to the principal's for telling fibs.

In any case, check any reputable news source. They'll tell you that "Hezbollah's brazen cross-border raid opened a second front for the Israeli army."

Associated Press report from The Toronto Star

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:27 PM

Guest, David, freda underhill:

May I ask each of you the same question I've posed to some of the other posters here who have lambasted Israel in the current conflict. This is NOT a tacit approval of Israel's conduct, merely an overall view of the situation. I think it can be answered yes or no, but if you feel different and wish to speak to the issue of the question, please do so:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,A senator in a seersucker suit
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

a simple 'yes' or 'no' will be suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:26 PM

From Amnesty Inernational -
"According to media reports, the USA is transferring GBU 28 bunker-buster bombs containing depleted-uranium warheads to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon."

C. Ham - You can easily find the article from Forbes. Don't be so lazy. Go google yourself.

btw - I know Billy Forbes. Where are you from?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

"Background

Lebanon crisis

Israeli-Palestinian conflict

More DUBAI, July 24 (Reuters) - The United States will soon provide Israel with some 100 "bunker buster" bombs to kill the leader of Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group and destroy its trenches, Asharq al-Awsat newspaper reported on Monday.

Quoting unidentified informed sources in both Washington and Tel Aviv, the Saudi-owned Arabic daily said the bombs, which can penetrate up to 40 metres (130 feet) under ground, would be shipped to Israel from a U.S. military base in Qatar."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

"The US Air Force's BLU-113 "bunker buster" warhead was originally developed in a hurry during the 1991 Gulf War to attack fortified Iraqi command centres deep underground.
It is a 4,500 lb (2,041 kg) penetrating warhead, later used in Serbia and in Afghanistan, and now in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad.

It is carried in the form of the GBU-28 laser-guided bomb by the B-2 stealth bomber and F-15E fighter-bomber, or the GBU-37 satellite-guided bomb by the B-2 alone.

Satellite guidance means the bomb can be used even through cloud or smoke - because laser guidance, though highly accurate, is degraded by those.

The warhead includes more than 600 lb (272 kg) of high explosive - the rest is believed to be dense depleted uranium."

from the www

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,sammy
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM

Robomatic
You wilfully fail to see the elephant in the living room!!
While you bleat on about the 1967 borders Israel continues to invade,destroy ,terrorise and humiliate.

The Zionists you support are a bunch of racist mass murderers who are currently slaughtering women and children,the elderly and toddlers.

They are flattening apartment blocks and destroying convoys of civilian vehicles full of children and the elderly.

The zionist killers are like the mafiosi [except the mafia did not murder so many ]. A couple of soldiers get captured on the border and Israel attempts to exterminate a whole country. Hundreds of kids in the way..Blow 'em up! Ambulance medics at work..Destroy'em!...UN observers ...Exterminate!

Although it is too busy slaughtering to draw breath something is going very wrong for the mighty Israeli army......the Hezbollah fighters are proving to be a match .

The Israelis have shown themselves to be punchdrunk on power; mad for blood; hungry for revenge; oafs with big bombs;pyschopathic killers of children.

The Israeli military is like the murderous thug pounding his victim into submission but this time it ain't gonna happen!
sammy

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jen
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

Those bunker bombs mentioned above are just as likely to be used on towns and cities.It has happened before!In 1982 Israel obliterated Beirut with its bombs and shells and tanks and missiles.It intends to do the same again!!
jen

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:52 PM

C. Ham - You can easily find the article from Forbes. Don't be so lazy. Go google yourself.

btw - I know Billy Forbes. Where are you from?

OK Dianavan, I Googled your phrase and it brought up several anti-Israel and anti-Semitic blogs that quoted it. Nothing, though, from Forbes itself.

So then I went to the Forbes site and fed the phrase into their search engine. Results = O, nada, gounisht, bubkes.

In other words, the supposed Forbes article is another propaganda lie and you've just proven robomatic's statement that "dianavan is a parrot for liars."

I live in Toronto.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

""According to media reports, the USA is transferring GBU 28 bunker-buster bombs containing depleted-uranium warheads to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon.""

GOOD, maybe that'll rid south Lebanon of that band of terrorists and their rockets and restore some peace to the region.

"Israel has illegally occupied the West Bank and the Golan Heights since 1967 and shows absolutely no sign of returning them to their legal owners , Palestine and Syris respectively."

Maybe if you provide some context regarding the reason why Israel occupied them in the first place a more balanced understanding of that situation would enlighten some here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:16 PM

To Bobad--Context?? Palestinean apologists don't need no stinking context!! (w/ apologies to John Houston and "Treasure of the Sierra Madre") Context just gets in the way of hate and mucks things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:27 PM

"punchdrunk on power; mad for blood; hungry for revenge; oafs with big bombs;pyschopathic killers of children"

Sounds a bit like Nikita Khrushchev. Wre you banging your shoe on the table when you wrote that?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:39 PM

Guest, Sammy: lemme tell ya a question:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

As for your li' ol' diatribe, here it is cast through the filter of truth:
The terrorists you support are a bunch of racist mass murderers who are currently slaughtering women and children,the elderly and toddlers.

They are flattening apartment blocks and destroying convoys of civilian vehicles full of children and the elderly.

The terrorist killers are like the mafiosi [except the mafia did not murder so many ]. They started this war by crossing into Israeli territory, killing eight and capturing two soldiers and Israel attempts to protect its borders and its people with attacks on Hezbollah held territory. Hezbollah hides behinds thousand of women and children. This is exactly what the bad guys do in the police movies.

Hezbollah has thousands of rockets to hit Israeli cities with. They've even killed kids in Nazareth. Although it is too busy slaughtering to draw breath something is going very wrong for the mighty Hezbollah fighters. After this is over the Lebanese and their friends WILL remember how it all started.

Hamas and Hezbollah have shown themselves to be punchdrunk on power; mad for blood; hungry for revenge; oafs with Iranian rockets; pyschopathic killers of children.

Hezbollah is powerful enough that the Lebanese Army does not dare try to disarm it. It is taking self defence action by the Israelis to save Lebanon!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:04 PM

Here ya go, C. Ham

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

You may live in Toronto but is that where you went to school? The Billy Forbes I know did not live in Toronto.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:16 PM

"self-defense by the Israelis to save Lebanon"

Robo--your bias is showing. Somehow I don't think that's how the Lebanese see it. They might possibly prefer it if the Israelis stopped bombing Lebanon.

A cease-fire---with no conditions---would possibly meet with Lebanese approval, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:32 PM

Your suggestion sounds amazingly like "we had to destroy the village to save it".

That didn't play very well the first time.

And really doesn't sound any better now.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:11 AM

Dianavan,

You're too much.

That "Forbes" report is actually an inaccurate Associated Press report filed on July 12 at 5:41 am by reporter John Panossian.

The link that I supplied in my first response was also to an Associated Press report filed by John Panossian on July 12 at 7:48 pm.

I e-mailed AP and asked about the discrepancy.

The earlier report was unverified and ultimately found to be inaccurate. All news outlets that received the feed were advised that it should be withdrawn and replaced with later reports.

But I suppose the earlier report serves the needs of lying propagandists.

So where are you from?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:34 AM

Ron:

I would support a cease fire including Hezbollah giving up its weapons and territory to the Lebanese Army, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Otherwise, what's to guarantee this whole thing won't play over again?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:39 AM

There's the rub. Hezbollah and Hamas have zero interest in a 'lasting peace'. They want Israel gone and all Jews dead. Period. Is it something in the water?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,george
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM

Two trucks full of vegetables were blown up by Israeli missiles this morning.....those peppers must have been hezbollah
george

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,robbie
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM

Magaret Beckett ,who is apparently the British foreign secretary,has been reported as sending a strong letter of objection to the Bush govt sending bunker busting monster bombs via Britain to Israel.

The aircraft delivering the bombs refuelled in Scotland and its crew wers able to rest there before flying off with their bomb load.
It is highly likely that Beckett will either resign or be sacked by Blair in the near future.
Meanwhile, the bombs will be used to blow up some of the few tower blocks left standing in Tyre or Beirut.
robbie

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,sammy
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:35 AM

reply to robomatic

You call Hezbollah terrorist but we have seen on our television screens who the real terrorists are.

It has been the state terror of the Israeli armed forces waging a sort of [lets not call it war ] slaughter on the Lebanese which is the real terror.

Here we have one of the most powerful armies in the world and it can't wait to drop its big bombs,cluster bombs,white phospherous bombs and artillery shells on who exactly???infants in the arms of their mothers,young teenagers fleeing in cars, elderly granparents and just about anyone else either hiding in cellars or trying to escape.That's not war !It is pure terrorism!Refined barbarism!

The invasion of the Lebanon has been a monstrous crime...but it is being resisted and Hezbollah is leading the resistance.It came into being to fight the Israeli invasion last time and it will be the sand in the Israeli war engine this time.
sammy

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:43 AM

It makes one wonder why an organization like Hezbollah, knowing it was up against such massive firepower, decided to start this war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM

Children infants and women and old men too sitting on top of 14,000 Iranian and Syrian supplied missiles that were killing israeli arabs and jewsish children women old men and infants.... fuck off sammy

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:42 AM

C. Ham,

I thought the report was accurate.

Haven't read anything about any statements being retracted, either.

I'm serious, do you really know Billy Forbes or did you make that up?

I mean how many guys could actually be named Billy Forbes?

I'm from B.C.

Hezbollah did not start this war, Peace. Hezbollah kidnapped a couple of Israeli soldiers whom they intended to use as bargaining chips for the release of their women and children. It was the over-reaction by Israel that "started this war."

I suspect that Israel has been planning to invade Lebanon for quite some time now. That's why Bush was so intent on moving Syria out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:06 AM

To Dianavan,...WORDS ARE WEAPONS TOO!
I don't think it is correct to say that the Hezbollah "kidnapped"the two Israeli soldiers.Far more accurate to say they were captured and made prisoner.

There are reports that they were captured on the Lebanese side of the border.

We know that the Israeli armed forces have consistently made armed incursions into the Lebanon over the past few years to assasinate,recconoitre and take prisoners.There are many Lebanese who have been taken this way.

In fact there are some 9000 Palestinian and Lebanese in Israeli jails-many were taken from their homes in the illegally occupied West Bank against all the rules of international law.

Last week Israeli warplanes buzzed one of the palaces of the President of Syria.If one of the pilots had been shot down and taken prisoner would he have been kidnapped?

We have to be alert to the language that the Zionists use and be prepared to challenge them when they use phrases like"collateral damage" or" targetted assasination" or" incursions ".
Words are weapons too!
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:23 AM

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground to this. Those who complain about "Zionist language" are just as far off base as those who talk about how the Israelis are saving Lebanon by attacking it.

The campaign by Israel was in response to real and worsening attacks on its borders. Israel has a right to defend those borders. But this was the wrong response. I have read it was dictated by internal Israeli politics. Specifically, Olmert, as a leader with no military experience, had to prove he was no paper tiger, especially for his future plans.

What he did, however, has played right into the hands of Hezbollah, a murderous group which does wish the destruction of Israel.

As I said before, the only way out is a strong multinational force, including some Moslem troops (Indonesian perhaps?) stationed on the border. It may be too late to set this up--Israel's actions have alienated too many possible participants.

If Israel had declared a no-go zone for Hezbollah on the border, warned inhabitants of those villages, and enforced this, I could support that.

Most reasonable people in the world, however, cannot support the current campaign by Israel, however, which has included attacking the Lebanese army--which then Israel supposedly hoped would patrol the border--and destroying virtually all bridges, I understand. As well as attacking Beirut. No excuse for that. Israel cannot use this means to keep Hezbollah from being re-supplied. The price for Lebanon is too high.
And all the civilians killed have given Hezbollah a wonderful propaganda windfall. Not
smart on Israel's part--as well as being a terrible human tragedy.

At bottom, as Wolfgang's article noted, this disaster can be laid at Bush's door. Not only did he completely withdraw from the peacemaking process, giving Israel the green light for whatever aggression Israel felt necessary. But also the Iraq war, by giving Hezbollah the argument that the US (and Israel, its proxy) have a plan for the Mideast--first Iraq, then Syria, then Hezbollah--"And we must resist"--gave Hezbollah the opportunity to, completely legally, become part of the Lebanese government. (Its own charitable work also played a role).

By becoming part--in fact an absolutely essential part, from the standpoint of coalition politics--Hezbollah gained the political cover to be even more aggressive towards Israel than previously.

Hezbollah has admitted they did not believe the Israeli reaction would be this massive. But the result has been a huge gain for Hezbollah--and a disaster for Lebanon---- and Israel. Hezbollah, Syria and Iran have gained--and nobody else.

So let's start by granting that Israel has a right to defend its borders--but must stop attacking Lebanon in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:28 AM

You can say Hezbollah's rockets must be stopped from attacking Israel. And so they should. But this does not give Israel carte blanche to destroy Lebanon. And that is what is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:26 AM

I think it very telling that Israel was told several times that it was shelling a UN observer post - and eventually, after such warnings, it destroyed it with a guided missile.

Ron's short statement above is exactly right.

And to go one further, the Hezbollah kidnap of the Israeli sources was precisely limited to a military target.

The Israeli response has been largely against Lebanese who are not Hezbollah, and against civilian not military targets. That, truly, is terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:11 AM

WHO ARE THE MASS MURDERERS?

I regard myself as a very reasonable person but I think you are totally wrong to describe Hezbollah as a "murderous group". They are widely seen in the Lebanon and across the Middle East as a resistance organisation willing and in most cases able, to stand up to Israel and its mighty military machine.

It is Israel that is the aggressor.Israel has destroyed the Lebanon once before without mercy,besieging Beirut for over two months in 1982.Its generals were reluctant then to send in ground forces to take the city so it was pounded from the air,the sea and from land positions with shells,missiles and big bombs.Sounds familiar? Some 20000 Lebanese were killed in that assault which led to the formation of Hezbollah.

It is also true that Israel has raided into the Lebanon on numerous occasions during the past 5 years .Hezbollah's attacks on Israel has to be seen in that context.Israel has also refused to reveal the positions of some 170000 land mines which it scattered on the hills and fields of south Lebanon and which are still maiming and killing the innocent.In addition Israel is holding many Lebanese prisoners who should have been released a long time ago.

In April 1996 one of the most murderous attacks from Israel came when it shelled a UN base at a place called Qana killing 105 Lebanese refugees who had gathered there to seek safety from Israeli attacks on other villages in the area.

Ron,which is the murderous group?

The Lebanese and Hezbollah are right to fight the state terrorism of Israel!What other option do they have?If they don't fight they will be invaded,occupied and treated as the Israelis treat the Palestinians.

To be for peace in the Middle East means to be for justice without which there can be no peace.To be for justice means opposing injustice.The invasion of the Lebanon by Israel is a monstrous injustice and a horrible war crime...a crime against innocent women and children...many ,if not most ,of the casualties in that poor country have been children or the elderly.Limbs have been blown off,shrapnel and glass have cut deep into flesh and others have been incinerated alive.

It is Israel that has committed these crimes on a country wide scale.It has acted as a killing machine and has waged war against the innocent. Who are the mass murderers?
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hedd
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM

WALES AGAINST THE WAR!
The South Wales Stop The War Coalition has organised a protest demonstration to take place in the centre of Cardiff this saturday [29th July ] beginning at 0ne pm outside City Hall.

Among the speakers will be Jill Evans MP together with representatives from CND, Respect,the Labour Party and the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign.

The protest will be calling for
1 An immediate end to the bombing and the invasion of Lebanon.

2 The banning of US arms flights using   British airspace and airports.

3 An end to the attack on Gaza.
HEDD

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

"Hezbollah did not start this war, Peace."

Say that often enough and you will believe it.


################################################


Will the march also include a protest against the activities of Hezbollah and Hamas? Guess not, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:57 PM

I would support the protest, guest Hedd, if it was balanced by calling for concessions from Hamas and Hezbollah as well. IMO it is not a demonstration for peace rather it appears to be be an anti Israel rally.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 12:58 PM

"Hezbollah did not start this war, Peace."

So, you know better than the Hezbollah leader do you, Dianavan?

'Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah, said an hour passed before Israeli forces set out to recover the captives, giving Hezbollah time to smuggle them to a place he called "safe and far, far, far away." He said the attack had been planned for months and was aimed at forcing negotiations that would win the release of three Lebanese held in Israeli jails.'

THAT, lady, is from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ringer
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM

I agree with Melanie Phillips. Click Here Note that part-1 is below part-2.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:13 PM

Al-Qaida chief warns Israel over attacks
AL-QAIDA'S second in command today warned they would not stand idly by while Israeli shells "burn our brothers" in Lebanon and Gaza.

Ayman al-Zawahri, number two to Osama bin Laden, said the group now saw "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us."

The taped message was broadcast by al-Jazeera television as the 15-day conflict continued.


from

News.scotsman.com

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

"Nasrallah knew that the Israeli retaliation for the kidnapping would fall mainly on innocent Lebanese (because they are much easier targets than his elusive guerillas), but he doesn't care. He had a few surprises up his sleeve, like longer-range rockets that could strike deep into Israel and radar-guided Silkworm anti-ship missiles to attack the Israeli warships that used to shell the Lebanese coast with impunity. And if he manages to fight Israel to a draw, he will come out of this the most popular Arab leader since Nasser. "

From an analysis by Gwynne Dyer at http://embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2006/july/19/dyer/

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:21 PM

"• Hezbollah instigated the current crisis by crossing the border and killing and capturing Israeli soldiers without provocation. Israel has responded by destroying elements of Lebanon's infrastructure used by Hezbollah. But Hezbollah operates from densely populated urban neighborhoods as well as villages. Civilian deaths are accumulating at about 10 Lebanese for every one Israeli, and hundreds of thousands of Lebanese have been displaced. Israel's targeted destruction in Lebanon has made Israel appear as the aggressor rather than the victim of Hezbollah's attacks. Meanwhile, as Syria takes in Lebanese refugees with open arms, its image is being rehabilitated in Lebanon."

"• So far Hezbollah has fired more than 1,000 katyushas into northern Israel. Their goal is to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible, and they pack the warheads with ball bearings and other crude shrapnel to increase lethality. Hezbollah aims its rockets at Israeli cities and fires, not caring who they hit. Haifa, the city that has received the most katyusha strikes, is the largest "mixed" city in Israel, where Arab and Jewish Israelis work and live side by side. The rockets hitting that city are killing and maiming Arabs as well as Jews."

from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:24 PM

And from the same article:

"• Media coverage is like a spotlight. It shines a bright light on the topic at hand, casting other issues into darkness and obscurity. Other, bloodier conflicts are escaping world attention. So far about 40 Israelis and 400 Lebanese have been killed. Far more Iraqi civilians have been killed in sectarian violence in the same period, but you wouldn't know that from watching cable news. As the international community focuses on Lebanon, the genocide in Darfur carries on unabated, with more than 300,000 dead and at least 2.5 million displaced. And the war in the Congo -- the bloodiest conflict since World War II, with more than 4 million deaths and millions displaced -- continues."

Read it and weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

dianavan,

So, what exactly is YOUR objection to the bunker-buster bombs?

They are MORE accurate, reducing casualties to any civilians not occupying the bunkers.

They are designed for hardened military targets, and are more effective than illegal, ball-bearing filled, unguided rockets against strategic military targets.

Or is it that you object to ANY means that Israel might use against Hezbollah?


Meanwhile, Hezbollah launched HOW many unguided, illegal anti-personnel areas bombardment rockets against civilian areas yesterday?


Or is it ok, since they are just killing Jews- ( or Israelis, and any dead Israeli seems to be a good Israeli by your standards...)?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

900

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

'The Egyptian-born physician said that the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah and the Palestinians would not be ended with ``ceasefires or agreements."

"It is a jihad (holy war) for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahri said. "We will attack everywhere."'

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:19 PM

"The patrol base has been repeatedly caught in deadly crossfire since it was built as an observer post in 1972.


"What I can tell you is this," Hess-von Kruedener wrote. "We have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing."

"The closest artillery has landed within two metres of our position and the closest 1,000-pound (450-kilogram) aerial bomb has landed 100 metres from our patrol base."

"This has not been deliberate targeting," he added. "But has rather been due to tactical necessity."

Hess-von Kruedener had been an infantry officer with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry for 20 years.

He served in Cyprus, the Democratic Republic of Congo, formerly Zaire, and twice in Bosnia before joining the UN Truce and Supervision Organization last October. "


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/26072006/2/national-un-peacekeeper-described-constant-bombing-days-death.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

Yup, these are the same people who hide weapons under women and children, so they run near UN posts to avoid being killed, except the Israelis learned to take war seriously and continue to kill them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,HEDD
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM

Lessons in Lebanon!

What sort of war has the Israeli armed forces learnt?
It seems to me they have become expert at waging war on civilians with their targetting of houses,apartment blocks, bridges,fuel depots,power stations,ambulances,schools,hospitals,petrol stations and car convoys.

In fact this Israeli army seems to have learnt its terror tactics from the nazis in the second world war and the Shock And Awe invasion of Iraq three years ago.

Israel has certainly lost the friendship or respect of many around the world.The sight of all the children maimed by blast,shrapnel and cluster bombs has been quite appalling.

But the Israeli invasion seems to be in some trouble.It has not won the quick victory it expected and seems to be outthought and outfought by an enemy who is numerically inferior and weapons inferior.

Many of the Hezbollah fighters would have been relatives of those killed by the Israelis in the last invasion or perhaps imprisoned and tortured under Israeli direction at the notorious Al Khaim prison run by Isrea's allies.The Hezbollah is proving a tough nut to crack and a poll in Lebanon this week has shown that a huge majority of its christian and muslim population believe Hezbollah to be a legitimate resistance force fighting off the invader. People are flocking to join to seek revenge for the bombing and shelling and missile fire.

Israel is entering a quamire and to quote a Pete Seeger song "The damn fool kept yelling go on!"
hedd

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

"Israel has certainly lost the friendship or respect of many around the world."

That is a lie. The people who hate Israel today hated Israel 20 years ago. They have lost no friends nor have they gained any. Israel's security depends on military power. Israel has been attacked consistently and persistently since the 1940s. I would have more respect for the pro-Hezbollah posteres on this thread if they had even once tried to get Hezbollah (or its predecessors) to stop attacking Israel. But you damned well haven't. None of you. IMO, your hatred of Zionists and Zionism is a not-so-cleverly disguised hatred of Jews.

Answer this: When have you ever written one letter asking Hezbollah to stop? WHEN? Your interest is not those poor civilians in Lebanon, because none of you have a care for poor civilians in Israel. You have no sense of justice; simply a sense of hatred. Curse the lot of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM

As I've come to expect, Peace's analysis is totally insightful.

Here is an excellent commentary by James Lileks that addresses the issues that Peace raises.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

Hedd you dope. Israeli children are murdered by Islamic militants policy and you say nothing about that. One sided bullshit, and if you ain't Muslim you will be next in line when israel is finished. Think about it!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hedd
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:14 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hedd
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

yes Hedd they want to kill all infidels, so when Israel is destroyed they can concentrate on the USA remember 911?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hedd
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:33 PM

SUFFER THE CHILDREN!
You Zionists can curse as much as you like .It doesn't disguise the fact that the Israeli army and airforce are a bunch of murderous thugs who have waged a barbaric war on innocent men,women and children.
As for the charge of being anti semitic .That is rubbish! Some of the most articulate and forceful critics of Zionism and Israel are Jewish---critics who have renounced the right of return and have criticised the cruelty and militarism of the Zionist state that is Israel.

One of you nameless Zionists talks about "when Israel is finished..." What tosh!Israel has one of the world's most powerful armies which is use as a kind of enforcer for American oil and strategic interests.The reality is that Israel is morally bankrupt, would be economically bankrupt without American support and yet still has a military machine that causes immense destruction to innocent people.

I went to sunday school and I dont remember the Bible saying suffer the little children...and lob a few cluster bombs onto their apartment blocks.
You lot can curse all you like but there was another honourable Jewish tradition of respect for others before Zionism and one day in the future that tradition will assert itself again after Zionism collapses under the weight of the thousands of innocents it has killed in the Lebanon , in Gaza and on the West Bank.
hedd

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM

Hedd your bullshit is just laughable, you should think about it before posting you sound like a Jihadi

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

Guest, Sammy
Guest, dan
Guest, hedd

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

Simple question. Let's throw out your polemics and grandstanding and start with a simple answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,a senator in a seersucker suit
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:10 PM

A simple yes or no would be suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

HEDD,

"under the weight of the thousands of innocents it has killed"

I wonder if Hezbollah will collapse under that weight. But I rather think not. They have no morality at all, do they.

The Israelis are being as careful as their weaponry will allow. Had they been purposely targeting civilians, there would be substantially more than 400 dead. I agree that 400 is 400 too many. But in your sickness, you do not agree that 40 is 40 too many. The forty were just Israelis, just Jews, right? And by virtue of being Israeli and Jewish, they had it coming, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: podman
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 09:41 PM

Last week, a cross-border raid by the radical Lebanese Shiite movement Hezbollah embroiled Israel and Lebanon in an escalating conflict. In 2002, [The New Yorker's] Jeffrey Goldberg wrote a two-part article examining Hezbollah, which he called "the most successful terrorist organization in modern history." Read part_one and part_two.

The area in which Hezbollah makes its home is saturated with pictures of radical Islamic clerics including Ayatollah Khomeini, which casts doubt upon whether Hezbollah is hiding out among innocent civilians or the entire community is Hezbollah.

The articles are long but well written and slightly more believable than the fans of terror we're seeing show up on the guest list.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,freddie
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:08 AM

"The Israelis are being as careful as their weaponry will allow" says the misnamed Peace in an above posting."

Mmmmmmm !

Tell that to the relatives of the four dead UN observers.

Tell it to the surviving paramedics .....The Israeli missile punched a hole through the centre of the red cross painted on the top of their vehicle.

Tell it to those in the car convoys fleeing north who saw their neighbours blown to bits on the road of death.

Tell it to the Doctors in Tyre and Beirut who have been working overtime amputating limbs of toddlers and teenagers.

Tell it to the friends of the German Lebanese family. They were killed in a basement cellar when the bomb crashed in.

Tell it to the 700000 refugees made homeless in their own land...just as the Palestinians were made homeless 58 years ago in Palestine.

Careful?...Yes the bomb aimers were very carful.They only followed orders.

Weaponry did you say?... Yes we know who built the big bombs.
freddie

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

WALT, is that you? You on or off your meds?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,tony
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:29 AM

"The horrors grew from small beginnings.The belief in a Jewish homeland which began well over a hundred years ago following the progroms in Tsarist Russiahas now developed into state violence.

When the zionists came to Palestine they emphasised their separateness .They took over arab land,often evicting the occupiers.

The zionists organised their own trade union [the Histradut[.They organised their own markets and shops.They desttoyed arab produce.No arab was allowed into the Kibbutz movement.The majority of Jewish owned land belonged to the Jewish National Fund whose constitution forbade arab tenants.By 1946 Tel Aviv with a population of 300000 had no arab residents.

Zionism ,however was beginning to inflict more and more outrages on the Palestinian people.The state of Israel,declared in 1948, was accomplished by a terror campaign that drove out many of the indiginous Palestinians----they have never been allowed to return.

The Israelis search for allies has meant it has become close to some of the worst regimes in the world including the apartheid state in South Africa and the Death Squad states of central and south Ameica.
It even trained the SAVAK secret police in the Shah's Iran.

In 1935 the Zionist practiced discrimination....but today that crack has widened .The crack of Jewish sperateness has lead to the horror of the Lebanon and the monstrosities of Zionism.

The arab working class is the only power that can stop Zionism and smash imperialism .The existing states can't do it."

Tony Cliff
[born Ygael Gluckstein into a zionist family in Palestine in 1917
socialist and fierce opponent of zionism ]

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:32 AM

Nobody supports wogs who train kids to kill and blow themselves up. Draw a fucking cartoon and they all dance and scream kill the infidels... fuck em...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:33 AM

Tony Cliff was a dedicated Marxist. So what's new?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:39 AM

Some 10000 tonnes of leaking oil has leaked into the sea from a destroyed stage tank some 35 miles south of Beirut.Another tank with about15000 tonnes of heavy oil is also expected to leak into the sea.The tanks have been burning for the past 2 weeks following Israeli air attacks and the sea and the coastline in the area have been contaminated.Job well done Olmert!!
jon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:44 AM

And of course, as a Marxist he really liked Stalin. And Stalin was a master of sorts at killing lots of people, wasn't he? Gee, Guest Tony, you choose your idols well. BTW, did you take that from the Socialist Worker Online, July 29, 2006, issue 2011?

Wasn't it Stalin who starved about 8,000,000 Ukranians? What do the Socialist Workers have to say about that? Let me guess. They'll deny it, right? And how do the Socialist Workers feel about Hezbollah and the killing it does? Did they say, or that doesn't fit the pogram. (Notice the lack of an 'r' in that word. Wouldn't want you to think it's a typographical error.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:46 AM

"Job well done Olmert!!"

I wonder if you have given credit to Hezbollah for starting the war, Jon? Don't they deserve just a little credit?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:53 AM

Effects of war come ashore in form of oil slick at Beirut's Ramlet al-Baida beach


Daily Star [Lebanon] staff
Saturday, July 22, 2006


BEIRUT: Part of Beirut's shoreline has become covered in oil, threatening marine life, according to an article published in An-Nahar daily. The shore at Ramlet al-Baida, where Israeli warships have been firing from, has been covered in the thick toxic liquid, the report said.

Beirut Mayor Abdel Monem Ariss, who toured the area, has stated that the source of the diesel oil could either be the heavy traffic of ships and boats that have come to Lebanon to evacuate foreigners, or the Israeli warship that was hit by Hizbullah rockets. The warship might have had to empty an extra load of oil, Ariss said.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb

Ariss ruled out the possibility that the diesel oil might have resulted from the burning gasoline tanks at the airport because he said "its combination differs from that of diesel oil found on the Ramlet al-Baida's shore and the smell differs as well."

Ariss said that he had delegated Marwan Chidiac, the head of the Civil Defense, to investigate the case.

Environment Minister Yaacoub Sarraf was to coordinate a shore cleanup. - The Daily Star

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:07 AM

One more thing:

What are all you Socialist Workers saying about the average daily death toll in Iraq? Are you aware that the 'average' has now gone over 100 deaths per day? And what did the Socialist Workers say about Rwanda? And what are you saying now about the war just starting between Somalia and Ethiopia? Do you know? Do you care? Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,sammy
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:19 AM

Eh
I think Cliff was an anti Stalinist and a supporter of the great Jewish and Russian reviolutionary Leon Trotsky who warned in his own writings of the dangers of Zionism.

Trotsky was murdered in 1940 on the orders of Stalin and around 20 of his family were either murdered,executed or imprisoned by Stalin.

Cliff is an important commentator on Zionism in that he was born in Palestine in a zionist family and saw at first hand the ill treatment and thuggery meted out quite casually to arab workmen by Zionist goons.When he complained as a teenager about this thuggery he was beaten up and threatened .

Apparently he was highly amused at being called a self hating Jew.
" Me he would say ...I am Jewish but I love myself!" Cliff was only a small man in stature but a great anti racist and socialist.

He helped found the Anti nazi League In Britain in 1978 which smashed the then growing Nazi National Front. For some reason the Zionists hate him!
sammy

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:20 AM

And for you guys and gals who don't open links to read what may be an opposing view, here is a snip from the link posted by C Ham:

"Oh, who cares. Even though Somalia is run by Islamists so extreme they make the Taliban look like lapsed Unitarians, the progressive peace movement would take notice of the region only if Uncle Satan intervened to help Ethiopia support the U.N.-recognized government. And then the progressives would rally to the Islamist cause. Recent anti-Israel protests remind us again of our era's peculiar alliance: The most violent, intolerant, militantly religious movement in modern times has the peace movement on its side.

The usual delusions are abundant. The progressives imagine they're the vanguard shielding the last jot of human rights from the ever-gathering fascist storm. (Forget the executions in Somalia for the crime of watching the World Cup; there's a rumor Wal-Mart won't offer the usual new-release discount for DVDs of Al Gore's eco-doc.) They imagine that conservatives support Israel because they want to convert Jews and usher in the last book in the "Left Behind" series. They have internalized the Palestinian narrative so deeply they blame the "occupation" for rocket attacks coming out of territory no longer occupied. They're so convinced of their rectitude that the obscenity of an Israeli flag spattered with swastikas makes perfect sense: Why, if the Israelis weren't actually Nazis, the progressives wouldn't oppose them. They marched with communists for Worker's Rights, regardless of whether anyone in communist countries had a job or any rights. And now they march with Hezbollah supporters for Peace and Justice."

Yeah . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:26 AM

Sammy:

So you really ARE a Socialist and up on Mr Cliff (may he rest in peace). So tell me, why do you support murderers like Hezbollah? You do that in the name of what?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,freddie
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

Peace...you do a good line in caricatures
you are named peace but are full of hate
you see plucky little Israel when most of the world sees a neighbourhood bully.
You see self defence when Israel acts as a mad rottweiller.
Kofi Annan is hardly an anti semite but is appalled by what he has seen of the attack on Lebanon.
freddie

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:31 AM

One last thing because i have to go.

Where does your group stand on Syria, Iran and Al Qaeda? Do you think they do 'good work' too? I mean, wasn't it Syria who thoroughly screwed up Lebanon to begin with? And doesn't Iran have a wonderful record for free thought, what with the Ayatollah and all? And doesn't Al Qaeda have a great history with women's rights? Seems to me you folks sleep with the devil when it's convenient. Anyway, have a nice day, whoever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:36 AM

Freddie (since I now know who you really are), I do not like what Israel is doing. OK? But I don't like what Hezbollah has been doing for years. The trouble you and I have is that you really think Hezbollah are someting other than murdering bastards controlled from Iran. I think they are nothing else but!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 09:37 AM

"Can the jeering critics of Israel stop catcalling for a minute and explain how Israel is to defend itself against an enemy that shoots from among women and children, and from behind UN soldiers? Can they explain why they are such apologists for terrorists? Can Annan explain why he did not call on Hezbollah to stop risking the lives of his staff, or pull them out when they were being used to screen terrorist fighters?" From Here, along with a photo of UN and Hezbollah flags flying side by side at the UN observer post.

"Annan" btw is, of course, Koffi Annan, doting father of the corrupt Kojo.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,freddie
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Reply to Peace
You ask what socialists have to say about the invasion of the Lebanon.Here goes!

Israel has launched a full scale, all out war on the Lebanese people...not just the resistance fighters of Hezbollah.It has been supported by the USA which has long provided the latest weapons ,training and finance to Israel.

If the Lebanon is smashed then the sights will be turned on Syria and then Iran.

Meanwhile Gaza continues to be attacked with missiles,bombs,tanks,artillery and snipers.Israel has a history of barbarism that goes back for many decades.

Resistance to this imperial attack is essential.

There is no equivalence between those doing the fighting.
Israel has a record of invading other countries while Hezbollah is a resistance organisation stemming the forward onslaught of both Israel and the USA . It is being supported by a growing tide of arab,christian and muslim opinion across the Middle East.
freddie

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:35 PM

"The lynching of Israel continues, this time with United Nations boss Kofi Annan accusing it of the "apparently deliberate targetting" of a UN observation post, killing four observers.

The usual suspects are now running with this line, with The Age front page screaming: "UN told: please explain.''

The venom against Israel - as splashed about by former Deputy Prime Minsiter Tim Fischer on ABC 774 this morning - is extraordinary. Do these people seriously think Israel aims to kill UN staff, and that this was not simply - as Israel insists - a tragic mistake?

What makes Annan's allegation so unforgiveable is that his UN Interim Force in Lebanon has been warning for days about what almost certainly caused this tragedy. Hezbollah fighters, who have already been firing behind screens of women and children, have also been shooting from behind and next to the UN positions, presumably hoping Israel will not dare shoot back and risk exactly this kind of propaganda disaster.

Read the UNIFIL press releases for yourself to learn that Hezbollah has not just shot at and seriously wounded UNIFIL observers - without any protest from Kofi Annan or The Age. You'll also learn that UNIFIL has repeatedly reported Israeli shelling and bombing near UNIFIL outposts because Hezbollah fighters were shooting from right beside them .

Says the UNIFIL press release of 20 July:

Hezbollah firing was also reported from the immediate vicinity of the UN positions in Naquora and Maroun Al Ras areas at the time of the incidents (of Israeli return fire). "

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon...Remember Qana
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 02:33 PM

Israel does have a history of attacking the UN.In April 1996 it attacked the UN post at Qana in southern Lebanon.It was packed with Lebanese civilians who had fled from nearby villages which had been attacked by Israeli warplanes and artillery fire.

The UN base was targetted by Israeli artillery shells which exploded among the refugees.One hundred and five [105] were killed.It was carnage.Over 100 hundred others were maimed.Utter devastation!

And the Israelis are still doing it.

This was a barbaric war crime but as far as I know no Israeli soldiers were held to account for this terrible
jon crime

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,adam - remember Hama
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM

Hama massacre occurred when the government of Syria attacked the town of Hama and killed thousands of people on February 2, 1982. Amnesty International claims that 10,000-25,000 were killed at Hama, though many figures exist and the number could be considerably smaller or larger than this. The Syrian government had made no official claim about the number killed at Hama.

Hama defied the dictator of Syria. Syria supports Hezbollah. It is obvious what Hezbollah is willing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,BA
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:23 PM

So much ink and airtime leaves one just bloggin' along trying to make sense after yet another dispatch from CNN and various al-Jazeera acolytes.

Once the two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah and the Katyushas unleashed, what exactly could Israel have done differently from what it has done? No one has any suggestion apart from the truism that Israel has a right to defend itself. Except, it seems, Israel has a right to defend itself only so long as it does nothing.

A country fighting with only a fraction of its true force in order to minimize civilian deaths, as Israel appears to do, risks losing both the war and the propaganda war. It can be accused of turning Lebanon into a charnel house while achieving only limited battlefield success. No doubt the dead and injured civilians include Hezbollah members, but I have no idea if eliminating them is causing more harm to Hezbollah than to Israel.

When the enemy places soldiers and weapons within civilian areas and sometimes right inside civilian homes -- giving new meaning to the notion of the kids playing war games -- you can defeat them only by a massive land invasion or by reducing the entire area to rubble. Israel's critics are vocal but all they have on offer is the chimera of a ceasefire and an international force to police it. The international community has been unable to enforce the 2004 UN Security Council resolution 1559 to disarm Hezbollah. The UNIFIL force in the region has proved utterly useless as have all previous "peacekeeping" missions in the Middle East.

Israel, less than 60 years old with only 6.4 million people, appears to soak up most of the world's moral outrage at the expense of many worse situations unremarked. The inaugural session in Geneva last month of the newly constituted United Nations Human Rights Council spent its time focused on "Israeli human rights violations in the occupied Palestinian territories." Never mind violations in Darfur, China, Zimbabwe, etc. Iran's delegation included Saeed Mortazavi -- a wry touch. Mortazavi is Iran's prosecutor general, implicated in torture and illegal detentions. Iranian-Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died while in his custody. There were no international warrants for his arrest in Geneva when he checked in as there would have been had toothless Augusto Pinochet shown up. Or comatose Ariel Sharon. At least, if Canada's own Louise Arbour had her way.

But then, Israel is the mother of all Rorschach ink blots when it comes to the UN. The only country created by a vote of UN members as opposed to merely being admitted by them, it remains the only one that has no permanent membership in any of the world's groupings. The Asian bloc, which includes Lebanon, Syria and Egypt, won't let it in. The Western European and Others bloc finally gave it temporary status in 2000, but that membership is a temporary visa to be renewed every four years -- rather like a Turkish worker in Germany.

Speaking of Louise Arbour, she has been issuing press releases and muttering darkly about Israeli military and political commanders bombing "sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the [unjustifiable] killing of innocent civilians." Such people might, she says, have a "personal criminal responsibility." If Madame Arbour were running a restaurant in Trois-Pistoles, "Pepsi et frites. Le duo parfait," her moral fog wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, she is the UN's high commissioner for human rights. I suppose she should be congratulated for beating the odds. Normally, people who can't tell the difference between the intentional and the accidental are streamlined into non-academic careers at a fairly early age. Only a minority become Supreme Court justices or heads of human rights offices.

One shouldn't be a crybaby and raise the spectre of anti-Semitism in easygoing Canada, but I find it intriguing that some French- Canadian radio broadcasters commenting on the dispute refer to "les Juifs" rather than "les Israéliens." Broadcasters of all sorts are problematic, though. The BBC has been trying to keep its petticoats clean after giving the game away as correspondent Barbara Plett covering Arafat's departure from Ramallah told viewers, "When the helicopter carrying the frail old man rose from his ruined compound, I started to cry." More like, don't cry for me, Palestine. Few people get Nobel Peace Prizes for warmongering and theft.

But in spite of all its effort, the BBC has practically gone native. While its newscasters aren't yet wearing Lawrence of Arabia headgear, their camels are at the ready. BBC broadcaster Fergal Keane, known for his "humane" take on events, gave viewers a mini-documentary this week with vivid footage of horrifyingly maimed children in Lebanon together with his commentary attributing the suffering to a "Red Cross ambulance fired at by an Israeli missile." Any BBC newscast on the situation could play happily on al-Jazeera -- and probably does.

Ultimately, all the rockets Hezbollah has been hoarding must be there to use against whoever blocks its design -- which is power. If we could stop looking under beds for Israeli war criminals, we could focus on what this is all about: whether the Middle East will be under the primary influence of Iran or the West -- neither of which are Arab powers.

Arab countries seem unable to run their own affairs. Nature abhors a vacuum and this vacuum has a lot going for it in other ways. The region is swimming in oil and the people are largely literate -- indeed if anything, a bit too taken by poetry. The result is a hugely valuable, un-staked claim that attracts predators. Iran has its heart set on recovering the empire of Xerxes but unlike the legend of the biblical King Xerxes (a.k.a. Ahasuerus), this time round there's no Esther to save the Israelites.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:35 PM

Hey, notice how many different names CarolC has posted under since deleting her cookie?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM

No matter how hard each side tries to justify it's actions by proclaiming, "SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!", a war in which there are more dead children than armed combatants is obscene and morally unjustifiable.

The NATO bombing of Kosovo over a span of 78 days resulted in the deaths of around 500 civilians. In just three weeks the confirmed civilian deaths in the Lebanon alone, have far exceeded that, despite assurances of care and the supposed sophistication of weaponry. Something really stinks and its not just the body count.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:27 PM

Did the militants in Kosovo use women and children as shields and set their armaments up in densely populated areas so that they could use the civilian body count for propaganda purposes?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,phil
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

Isn't Israel a member of Eurovision?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Granville
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 05:54 PM

You Zionist supporters seem to want it all! The Israeli military are waging all out war on the civilian population of the Lebanon and Gaza...................and you want world approval of its actions.
You want us to say "Well done plucky Israel!"

You want us to say "Never mind the kids torn apart and the old lady in Gaza killed by artillery fire."

But most of the world doe mind.There are killers on the loose in Africa and terrorising the region.

But there is Israel which is also terrorising its neighburs and has been doing so for several decades.

The original people of Jerusalem and other cities were driven out at the point of a sharp knife and a bayonet.They have never been allowed to return to their homes because Israel was declared to be a Jewish state.......However there are many Jewish people both secular and religious who believe that it is a brutal hijack state or simply profane.

The Palestinians have refused to give up their fight for civil,human and national rights and have been punished for their impertinence time and time again.

They have been killed in large numbers, imprisoned and tortured, exiled and beaten and seen their land stolen
.
You Zionists scream with rage not only at the actions of the Palestinians but also at those who report on the situation or who stand witness to the crimes of the Zionists.Hence the killings of Tom Hurndell and Rachel Corrie and the others shot while filming or observing the criminal actions of the Israeli military.

Zionists do not even want to use the word Palestinian as if somehow its use gives them legitamacy. The Zionists are the thugs,the killers and the racists....and that is why you are meeting resistance in Gaza,the West Bank and the Lebanon!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,mark
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:05 PM

The commander of Israeli armed forces on the northern border was taken to hospital today suffering from abdominal pains and exhaustion.Lt General Dan Halutz was allowed home and told to eat well and rest.
Meanwhile the Israeli minister of Justice was taken in by the police last week for seven hours of questioning for an inappropriate kiss with a female.
He too,was allowed home!
Things seem to be tough at the top...
mark

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:01 PM

Gee. Mark, that was really illuminating. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:08 PM

i refer again to this unpopular thread the need to win which was geared at the sometimes abusive debating techniques on threads like this one.

Yes, robo, as I have stated previously, I support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them, but as far as I am aware those borders do not extend into Lebanon. And bb, please answer with arguments and not misguided derisive attacks.

and Peace, thanks for your thoughtful pm about my Lebanese colleague and her deceased aunt and hospitalised children.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,brian
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 08:23 PM

The most telling thing to me in this sad little column is the positive glee the Hezbollah supporters are taking in reporting all the civilian casualties. Naughty naughty Israeli zinistas.

It's merely a matter of choosing your cry-point. The terrorist lovers are willing to call the Terrorists 'defenders' and the Israelis attackers and invaders. The Israelis aren't covering themselves with glory. But they are not claiming glory. Somehow the amen-corner of the Hezbolla lovers is trying to make these killers the heroes.

The Arab street is supposedly falling all over theselves kissing the ground before Hezbollah.

But this will end. The Lebanese will remember how this all came about. There will be folks trying to raise money for Hezbollah who get the cold shoulder.

Why pay for trouble?

All I can say is if Israel is going to all this trouble to kill civilians that the terrorists are hiding with, they better make it worth their while.

Finish it and get out.

But don't go kidding yourself that we won't remember who started it and who took the most joy in all the victims. Your wasting your time.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:34 PM

Yes, robo, as I have stated previously, I support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them, but as far as I am aware those borders do not extend into Lebanon.

Then, pray tell, explain why Hezbollah started this lousy war by crossing the border into Israel and taking Israeli prisoners.

Hezbollah knew that Israel would be provoked into a military response and that innocent civilians would undoubtably be killed. After all, Hezbollah hides behind innocent civilians.

The thing is, Hezbollah wants innocent civilians to die. The more innocent civilians die, the happier Hezbollah is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM

Afghanistan (where the local religious right richly deserved removing) was bombed back into the stone age. Local resistance to the occupation army continues.

The US invasion of Iraq on the pretence that Iraq was a military threat has greatly encouraged local resistance to the occupation forces.

Remember Korea, Vietnam, Ireland, Algeria.

The only time Israel will bring peace to the Lebanon by present means will be when nothing at all moves there.

You do not make friends with a population by destroying its homes, its families, its land, and all trappings of civilisation. At most you subjugate it.

Once, not long ago, I supported Israel's defence and even its occupation of the Golan Heights and the West Bank. But here and now in the Lebanon and in Gaza Israel is trampling people and countries who have not been the assailants of Israel. The people in the refugee camps without water are not Hezbollah or Hamas - yet. The destruction of the hopes they had been laboriously building may yet make them so. The power stations bridges and roads destroyed served many indeed mostly those who were not Hezbollah or Hamas.

Israel's brutality here and with its armoured bulldozers has turned this previous supporter into a critic. What it has achieved across its borders seems likely to be more extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:47 PM

Bridge, there are more fucking cel phones in Afghanistan now than two years ago some fucking stoneage when girls are actually at school again. Fuck Off idiot

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 03:57 AM

The Hizbollah did not start the war.The Israelis have made dozens of "incursions " into the Lebanon to take hostages,assasinate and obtain information during the past few years.

Israel was holding hundreds of Lebanese prisoners plus would not reveal the whereabouts of 170000 mines which civilians were stepping on on the hillsides and fields of southern Lebanon.

However,the timing of the capture of the two Israeli soldiers was linked to the Israeli attack on Gaza where hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and hundreds more wounded by heavy shell and tank fire during the past few months.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 04:05 AM

Hey, Danny, did you sleep in today? You're late. Haven't heard the same post for hours at least.

"The Hizbollah did not start the war."

Of course they did. India, which is really POed at Isreal, has even said that Hezbollah started the war. They then go on to say that Israel's response is not proportional. Do you make that crap up as you go along? You've posted the same thing about 10 times. It was bullshit when you started, and it's still bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM

do you have water and electricity, peace? Israel's response is not proportional.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,apalled
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM

Published on Friday, July 28, 2006 by the Toronto Star
Canadian's Wife Wants Answers
Says deadly bombing of UN observer post was `intentional.


The wife of a Canadian soldier missing and presumed dead in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations observation post in southern Lebanon says she believes the attack was intentional. Cynthia Hess-von Kruedener made the allegation yesterday when she spoke to reporters at Canadian Forces Base Kingston.

"Why were they firing on that base?" Hess-von Kruedener demanded to know. "That wasn't the only day they were firing on that base. My information from (her husband) is weeks upon weeks they've been firing on them. "In my opinion, those were precision-guided missiles, then that was intentional," she said. The career officer had been in Lebanon for the past nine months and had three months remaining in his mission.

His wife's comments add fuel to the growing controversy over the bombing.. At the heart of it lies information that has come out over the past few days that UN observers in Lebanon phoned the Israelis at least 10 times over a six-hour period pleading for the shelling of the position to stop. When it became evident the shelling wasn't going to stop, the base commander called top UN officials in New York.

Ireland has filed an official protest over the incident as six of those specific phone warnings came from Lt.-Col. John Molloy, a senior Irish UN peacekeeper whose job was to liaise with the Israel Defence Forces.

An Israel Defence Forces spokesman denied the allegation saying "we are targeting the roads because Hezbollah uses those roads; under no circumstances do we target civilians, including the media."

For Hess-von Kruedener, an email sent to CTV last week about his mission described the dangers he faced.

According to UN officials, there have been dozens of incidents involving firing near UN posts — including nine hits on their positions.

© 2006 The Toronto Star

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 12:50 PM

Richard Bridge has it exactly right. What Israel is doing by destroying Lebanon is storing up more trouble for itself and its supporters--by creating more terrorists all over the world.

As I said earlier, creating and enforcing a no-go zone for Hezbollah close to the border is fine. The rest of it is not fine--in fact criminally stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,DAN
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

How about a no go area for Israeli armed forces on the West Bank and in Gaza city?

When the Israeli army goes there it is usually to kill civilians,who are often children or the elderly,blow up houses or demolish olive groves.Understandably the Palestinians who have lived on those lands for generations are very,very angry and humiliated.

How about a no go area for the Israeli armed forces in the Lebanon?

This is the secong massive destruction on that country in 25 years.The last time Israel invaded the Lebanon in 1982 it destroyed Beirut with artillery shells,tank fire and missiles.Twenty thousand civilians were killed and many more maimed.Now the Israelis are repeating the bloodlust!

How about a no go area FOR Palestinians in Israeli prisons?


Some nine thousand Palestinian and hundreds of Lebanese are locked up,illteated and frequently tortured .The prisoners include women and children who the Palestinian fighters want to exchange for the captured Israeli soldier [the one with the french passport ].

How about a no go area on the Golan Heights?

This Syrian region was grabbed by Israel in 1967 and has never been returned .

How about a go go area for the Geneva Convention and the humane treatment of civilians?

For the past few weeks we have seen appalling barbarities inflicted on the long suffering people of Gaza and the Lebanon.Today a one DAY old girl , a victim of the bombing,was buried in the Lebanon.One day Olmert and his butchers will have to answer for their war crimes in an international court of law.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:56 PM

"do you have water and electricity, peace? Israel's response is not proportional."

And where the hell did I say it WAS proportional.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hedd
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 04:04 PM

EMERGENCY NATIONAL DEMONSTRATION
                IN SUPPORT
       THE LEBANON AND PALESTINE
There will be a massive emergency demonstration in central London on saturday the 5th August in support of the people of Palestine and Lebanon.
             Stop The Invasion
          For An Immediate Ceasefire
Do come along and show your support for those Palestinians and Lebanese who are being bombed ,shelled and incinerated by the Israeli armed forces.

The demonstration is being organised by
The Stop The War Coalition
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign
Muslim Association of Britain
          CND
The Lebanese Community in Britain
hedd

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

By all means. If it will help bring the war to an end, do that. I hope one or two people will also carry signs that read, "Stop Hezbollah and Hamas Attacks on Israel". Just in the interest of showing solidarity for peace that might have a chance of lasting.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 04:42 PM

So, uh, anyone gonna carry a sign like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

My sign will say
"Bush-the number one terrorist"
probably because of his "Shock and Awe" war crimes in Iraq and his arming and encouragement of the warmongers in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,katie
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM

The placard I would like to carry would read
                FREE PALESTINE!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:11 PM

Thought the answer might be something like that. So it's really an anti-Israel demonstration and not one to try and bring about a lasting peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jon
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM

Do you honestly think that Bush and his neocons are interested in lasting peace?

That gang,on the contrary believe in the Long War ,which is not about bringing democracy to the Middle East but is all about strategic interests,imperialism and oil...very much about oil.

which is why my placard would say

                  NO BLOOD FOR OIL!
JON

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,GRANT
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

500 people marched in Cardiff,Wales today calling for an end to the bombing of the Lebanon and the attack on Gaza city!
They were warmly received on the streets of the capital.
grant

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:43 PM

That is a good thing.

When will those people march calling for an end to the bombing of the Israelis?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,sue
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

The placard I would carry would read

            
               STOP THE BOMBING !
                STOP THE CRIME
                  TANKS OUT OF
                   PALESTINE!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

Two UN observers have been wounded by Israeli shelling in the Lebanon.

In the south of Lebanon a woman and her 5 children have been killed by an Israeli attack.The Israelis are reported to be looking into the matter.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:01 PM

Three Israelis speaking in heavily Russian accented Hebrew went on a stabbing rampage in the Israeli city of Acre today wounding two Israeli arabs including a member of the knesset.
The attackers fled.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

There have been no Israeli civilian casualties in this war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:11 PM

It is interesting to note that while the Masters of War in the US and Israel get soldiers to do their bidding, the Masters of War in Iran and the Hezbollah in Lebanon seldom get remarked about. I wonder why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

Three teenagers aged 16 years of age from the Golan Heights which are occupied by Israel but are part of Syria have been sentenced to 9 years imprisonment in an Israeli jail for armed resistance to the occupying forces.
There have been widespread protests from within Syria and the Golan about the legality and severity of the sentences.
dan

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:23 PM

"It is interesting to note that while the Masters of War in the US and Israel get soldiers to do their bidding, the Masters of War in Iran and the Hezbollah in Lebanon seldom get remarked about. I wonder why that is?"

I think, bruce, it's all about who is the victim and who is the perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:32 PM

I think it's about posturing, because I have never seen any of the Hezbollah apologists complaining when Israelis are killed by suicide bombers or rockets from Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:42 PM

Well lets solve the problem lets kill all the jews and let the arabs kill or convert us all to Islam thats what you fuckers all want isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM

what codswallop.

the Israeli government has a lack of good leadership. Most Jews in australia want negotiation, not war, and i believe most decent people in any war ridden countries want that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 07:08 PM

bullshit freda, what they want is to be recognised and left alone something the arabs have no intention of negotiating.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:04 PM

I know mosty Israelis want to be recognised and left alone, and so do most Lebanese. Both Hezbollah and the Israeli government are locked into a catch 22 of retribution and revenge, because both see the other side as the ones at fault. Suicide bombing on one side, flights into Lebanese territory, bombings and sonic booms on the other side. While the governments of both sides believe the only solution is military, the war will continue.

both sides refuse to look at their own culpability.

Meanwhile, [from the BBC] firing across the border has continued by Israel and Hezbollah. An Israeli air strike has closed the main border crossing from Lebanon into Syria, witnesses and officials say. Missiles hit the road between the two states' immigration posts, but on the Lebanese side, the reports said. A separate strike wounded two more UN monitors in their observation post, days after four were killed. the UN still has "serious concerns" about the incident, which happened despite repeated UN pleas for the Israelis to stop firing.

The UN says some 600 people - about a third of them children - have been killed by Israeli action in Lebanon. They include a mother and her five children killed in a new wave of Israeli air raids in southern Lebanon, Lebanese medics said. Israel said it was investigating.

Hezbollah has continued firing hundreds of rockets into Israel - several hit the northern Israel town of Safed on Saturday. In a new message, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said more central Israeli cities would be targeted if the Israeli offensive continued.

A total of 51 Israelis, including at least 18 civilians, have been killed during the conflict.

Meanwhile, Israeli military sources have indicated that the fighting could intensify.

Earlier, Israel rejected a UN call for a three-day truce in southern Lebanon.

The UN said children, the elderly and disabled people were trapped and supplies were short, but Israel said there was no need for a truce as a humanitarian corridor to the area had been opened.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:20 PM

"the UN still has "serious concerns" about the incident, which happened despite repeated UN pleas for the Israelis to stop firing."

The UN should get its head out and go to Lebanon. It does not require the US to give an OK. The US went into Iraq without the OK. A coalition of other countries could do the same in Lebanon. It ain't rocket surgery.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

The UN is already in Lebanon, Peace, and as you will have read, has also been bombed by the Israelis, despite repeated requests from various UN members for them to stop bombing its stations there.

...meanwhile,

Tony Blair was facing a full-scale cabinet rebellion last night over the Middle East crisis after his former Foreign Secretary warned that Israel's actions risked destabilising all of Lebanon.
Jack Straw, now Leader of the Commons, said in a statement released after meeting Muslim residents of his Blackburn constituency that while he grieved for the innocent Israelis killed, he also mourned the '10 times as many innocent Lebanese men, women and children killed by Israeli fire'.

He said he agreed with the Foreign Office Minister Kim Howells that it was 'very difficult to understand the kind of military tactics used by Israel', adding: 'These are not surgical strikes but have instead caused death and misery amongst innocent civilians.' Straw said he was worried that 'a continuation of such tactics by Israel could destabilise the already fragile Lebanese nation'. The Observer can also reveal that at a cabinet meeting before Blair left for last Friday's Washington summit with President George Bush, minister after minister pressed him to break with the Americans and publicly criticise Israel over the scale of death and destruction.

The critics included close Blair allies. One, the International Development Secretary, Hilary Benn, was revealed yesterday to have told a Commons committee that he did not view Israel's strikes on power stations as a 'proportionate response' to Hizbollah attacks.
[Cabinet in open revolt over Blair's Israel policy; Gaby Hinsliff in San Francisco, Ned Temko in London and Peter Beaumont in Beirut; Sunday July 30, 2006; The Observer]

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:34 PM

The UN is not there with ROE that stipulate they can 'shut it down'. (I am aware of the approximately 1100 UN Observer force that's there. TY.)

"There would have been no ambiguity about whether the Israelis had targeted the UN had Mr. Annan, in accordance with deployment tradition, withdrawn the observers from the area as soon as ceasefire violations erupted into open warfare.

Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie describes the decision to leave the observers on site as "bizarre" from a military point of view.

"If I were their commander and I was ordered to leave them there, I'd disobey the order and they could send me home," he said.

Indeed, in what is the equivalent of a voice from the grave, an e-mail written by Maj. Hess-von Kruedener days before the strike says Hezbollah was active in the area of the observer post and that Israeli strikes close to it had "not been deliberate targeting."

The firing was "due to tactical necessity," he wrote, which Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie said was military jargon for "I've got Hezbollah all over my position using us as shields."

Hiding behind targets the Israelis are reluctant to strike is a common Hezbollah tactic, and Jan Egeland, the UN's emergency relief co-ordinator, this week called the guerrilla fighters "cowards" for putting Lebanese civilians at risk by hiding among them.

Yet Mr. Annan ignored Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's reports of the increasing risks to the base as Hezbollah used it as a shield."


from a google of

un, lebanon

Then this comes up

2 Indian UN peacekeepers wounded in southern Lebanon
CBC Montreal, Canada - 4 hours ago
... Earlier this week, an Israeli bomb destroyed a UN observer post in south Lebanon, killing at least three observers. Another observer ...
Harper doubts UN post deliberately targeted CBC.ca
UN post should have been cleared National Post
Probe bombing of UN observer post Toronto Star
The Canberra Times - Hamilton Spectator - all 148 related

The article title is 'UN posts should have been cleared National Post

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

DUBLIN (Reuters) - An Irish army officer in south Lebanon warned Israel six times that air strikes threatened the lives of U.N. observers there before four staff were killed in a direct hit, Ireland's Foreign Ministry said on Wednesday.

"On six separate occasions he was in contact with the Israelis to warn them that their bombardment was endangering the lives of U.N. staff in South Lebanon," a Department of Foreign Affairs spokesman
said. "He warned: 'You have to address this problem or lives may be lost'," the spokesman said of comments by Lieutenant Colonel John Molloy, the chief liaison officer between U.N. forces in South Lebanon and the Israelis.

The remarks came after Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern summoned Israel's ambassador to his office to "protest at the strongest possible level". Speaking to reporters after the meeting, Ahern cast doubt on assurances the deaths had been an accident. "Evidence that we have would suggest that this was either an incredible accident or else was in some way directly targeted," Ahern told reporters following the meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 11:55 PM

So, uh, what's the Socialist Workers' position on Muslim Genocide in the Sudan?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:00 AM

Psssst,

Ten to one either the USA or Israel get the blame for genocide in the Sudan. Not the Muslims, but the US or Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:20 AM

not being a Socialist worker, i wouldn't know, Peace. and i don't appreciate your attempt to portray my views as coming from some ideological standpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:23 AM

To be clear, Freda, the above posts were not aimed at you at all. They are for the assorted crew who post as Guest ifor, josh, et.al. You at least recognize that there are two sides to the issue at hand: namely, the war between Israel and Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:28 AM

sorry, bruce, i must be suffering from centre-of-the-universe syndrome. but you know, mercury is retrograde in my chart right now :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:32 AM

Mercury is not good for you.

I owe the apology for not making clear that they were meant for the GUEST crew--who are only two or three people, tops. One of them posts often from the Socialist Worker Online. The others seem to take their lead from that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:09 AM

Freda you responded to my question:

Yes, robo, as I have stated previously, I support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them, but as far as I am aware those borders do not extend into Lebanon.

I wanted to thank you for the straightforward answer, unlike so many Guest, dan/danny/another guy/thisotherguy/thatotherguy/ who are love bombing us with their diatribes solely on one side.

The more I hear, the more I back Israel's overall response. Hezbollah has huge depots of rockets which so far have been used by the hundreds against Israeli civilians. The Lebanese army was not in possession of Lebanese territory, ergo, is it really Lebanese territory? The UN chose to site itself where Hezbollah fighters could utilize it for their own positions. They said so themselves. I wonder if they have asked for positions on Israeli territory or are observing the hits being made on Haifa.

Israel did not initiate this but they seem to be making the decision that an over-response will make the events memorable enough in Arab eyes to pre-discourage Arab governments from benign indifference to terrorists within their borders. I think it's rational and I hope it works.

There are some New Yorker articles that a friend posted me, written back in '02. They indicate that Hezbollah has been long range planning anti-Israel and anti-semitic campaigns for a long time.

So, while Israel is waging a pretty hard attack on supposedly civilian areas as well as Hezbollah centers, a lot of those civilian areas contain Hezbollah relatives and tolerant neighbors.

When protestors are so one-sided as to call on Israel alone to cease fire, they lose all credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:18 AM

A picture worth looking at.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:20 AM

Posted without comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:54 AM

Peace, the "picture worth looking at" is very innacurate. In three quarters of those countries the people are not arabic.

eg they are Persian (Iran), Turkish (Turkey)Pashtun & Tajik (Afghanistan) Pashtun (Pakistan) etc etc

and the cartoon.. young people on both sides of the Israel/Palestine are just as much at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:10 AM

Fine. Tell me this: why have you NOT called the GUEST arseholes to account for their racist crap on this thread? Why have you NOT taken Hezbollah to account for years of killing Israelis? It is about Arabs and Jews in this instance--Lebanon and Israel. However, it really is much more than that. It is about Iranian manipulation--and you have not addressed that. Maybe it is not convenient to address where this started. I am aware that only 15% of Muslims are Arabs also. But you talk about fair? Why were people here not talking about fair when Hezbollah was attacking Israel for years? WHY?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:14 AM

BTW, those cartoons are tame compared to the shit that is regularly used in Arab countries to portray Israel, and specifically Jews. Go to some of their site and tell THEM that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:40 AM

Example here.

"The cartoon above, from Arab News, depicts rats wearing Stars of David and skullcaps. They scurry backwards and forwards through holes in the wall of a building called "Palestine House." Arab News, an English-language daily widely read by expats in Saudi Arabia, is widely-regarded as a moderate publication. It is published by a state-owned Saudi corporation. The imagery in the cartoon may well be inspired by a well-known scene from the Nazi film "Jew Suess," to which it bears a close resemblance – a scene in which Jews are depicted as vermin to be eradicated by mass extermination."

The text is by Tom Gross

It is from

www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:47 AM

From 'Palestine Media Watch'

The translation:

"On old man: The 20th century
On boy: The 21st century
Above Jew: The disease of the century
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, December 28, 1999]"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:57 AM

Honoring terrorism

This approach to creating terrorist heroes by naming infrastructures for them has long been a Palestinian Authority practice. Examples include:

Summer camps sponsored by the PA Ministry of Youth and Sport named for suicide terrorists;

A soccer tournament named for the suicide terrorist who killed 31 at a Passover celebration at the Park Hotel in Netanya;

A girls' school near Hebron named by the PA Ministry of Education for a woman terrorist who murdered 37; and

A poetry collection by the PA Ministry of Culture named in honor of the suicide terrorist who killed 21 at a restaurant in Haifa.

As long as the PA features exciting, terror-promoting videos on its websites, and names streets, schools, summer camps and tournaments after terrorists, its isolated condemnations of terror attacks - worded to placate Western leaders - will be long forgotten by Palestinians, while the infrastructures of hate and terror will last and reverberate. This leaves lasting impressions on PA youth and creates a new generation of PA terrorists waiting for another target.

*****************************

That is from http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:01 AM

I think you have to take many of these so called translations with a big dose of salt as there are units in Israeli intelligence whose job it is is to mistranslate arab articles or even invent articles for european or american consumption.It's called the black arts millions ,if not billions are spent every year on them.

Clearly reading the posts of several of the pro zionists on mudcat they seem to work in some if not most, cases.

Its interesting to note that the Zionists have hurled racist abuse at the arabs and palestinians from the very beginning poisoning the social relations and making rational discussion or cooperation very difficult.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:05 AM

Arab media portrayal of Jews.

I'm sure the GUEST-ifor crew here will get a big kick out of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM

Around 40 civilians were killed in Qana South Lebanon this morning.Thirtyfive [35] of the dead were children.There are many more under the rubble.
This is not war ,it is mass murder!
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:08 AM

"I think you have to take many of these so called translations with a big dose of salt . . .".

I have ceased giving a damn what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:10 AM

No, hugo. It IS war--the war Hezbollah started. Not something anyone should be proud of. Not Israel, not Hezbollah, and not you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:06 AM

Peace, what has Palestinian Authority practice (and within a few minutes of rummaging I did not find your quote from the plainly campaigning website to which you linked, so I have not been able even to begin trying to verify what you say about the glorification of terrorism, nor to check the timeline) got to do with the current Israeli attacks not on Hamas, not on Hezbollah alone, but on the whole of the Lebanon?

Incidentally, I heard a Jewish caller yesterday on BBC radio 4 (well, he said his name was Chaim and he claimed to be Jewish) denying that the humanitarian corridor existed, and what I have seen on the BBC seems to show terrified civilians without food or clean water unable to leave Southern Lebanon. Before anyone starts on the BBC I regard it as historically the best source of factually accurate TV and radio reportage in the World.

An Isreali attack on Hezbollah might be justified. Laying waste to the whole of southern Lebanon, and depopulating it and terrorising the civilians who remain cannot be legitimate.



But however to deal with the remarks about the Janjaweed (if that's the best way to spell it), they and most of the African militias in the Sudan are criminals, possibly genocidal criminals, and the peacekeeping force there ought to get tough with them. The peacekeeping force ought not of course to get tough with non-combatants.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:37 AM

I want to nail a big lie about the UN post murder.

The von Kruedener email being quoted by the apologists for Isreal was sent on the 18th and so dealt with the situation on that day. The UN post was destroyed on the 25th. On the 25th the UN post had telephoned 6 times to protest that it was under fire and that the UN observers were likely to be killed. Result? No change but an accurately guided missile spot on the UN post. Good shot sir.

This was not collateral damage. This is someone deciding to get rid of thorn in his side.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM

Its obvious from the bombings and slaughter in the Lebanon and Gaza city that the Zionists and the Israeli Occupation Forces care very little what anyone thinks about the barbarism it is inflicting on civilians.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,frances
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 07:42 AM

the placard I would like to make for next saturday's anti war march in London will read

    STOP THE KILLING
    STOP THE HATE
ISRAEL IS THE TERROR STATE!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 07:51 AM

Israel are to blame for this slaughter of innocents.
But Hezbolla must share the blame.
It was known that Israel would strike launch sites wherever placed.
The launchers are mobile. They choose to fire from population centres.
Their cause is helped by creating martyrs.
Let it all stop please.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 08:28 AM

Imo, White rice is such a shitty dish.

Do Condi and Bushie ever think about the literal meaning of their words?

oh, right, they haven't got a brain nor have they got a heart or courage or a soul. So they don't engage their brains before they open their mouths or else there'd be less crap that came out of that opening. But like Bush, Condi doesn't appear to care how what she says can be interpreted-just like she-and her hus-I mean her massa Bush don't seem to care about what their actions or lack of actions.

Check out these excerpts from this article:

Rice postpones trip to Beirut after attack


"We all recognize this kind of warfare is extremely difficult," said Rice, noting it comes in areas where civilians live. "It unfortunately has awful consequences sometimes." ...

"I am here ... in pretty political and dicey circumstances," she said. "I do believe that it is best to try to address these issues face-to-face and see what we can achieve."...

Rice said she was meeting with Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz when news of the attack came. "Once again, I was reiterating our strong concern about the impact of Israeli military operations on innocent civilians," she said.

She said she is working with all parties to try to stop the violence. "Too many innocent people — Lebanese and Israeli — have suffered. Too many people have lost their lives. Too many families are homeless. And too many children have been killed, injured or are living in fear for their lives." ...

"Emotions are understandably running high on all sides," she said...

-snip-

What?! It's understandable that emotions are running high on all sides. Who woulda thought it. [snark]

And quoting from that same article Condishoezza said:"

"I am here ... in pretty political and dicey circumstances," she said. "I do believe that it is best to try to address these issues face-to-face and see what we can achieve."

-snip-

Imo, this statement really takes the cake. Not for a red hot second would I have called this horrendous war "a dicey circustance". 'Complicated' Yes. 'Difficult' Yes. 'Dicey' No. That word seems to minimize the importance of it all. It also brings up images of a crap shoot. But all of this is nothing but the same oh crap, right?

And note how condo revealed her first concern is for the political ramifications of this "dicey circumstance". Come on now condi! These killings can't be "pretty" to you. Can they??!! Oh right, I forgot you hang out with the same folks that gave us the Iraqi shock & awe. I guess you can see how well that's working, right?

And what about this quote from condoliezza:

"too many people innocent people-Lebanese and Israeli-have sufferred" Well wouldn't you think that one is too many? Ditto for "too many families are homeless and too many children have been killed, injured, or are living in fear for their lives."

And I see that condi didn't mention the Canadians and people of other nationalities who have been killed or injured as a result of this horrendous war [but then all wars are horrendous, right?]

I mean wouldn't any right thinking person think that that "one" innocent person killed or injured or living in fear as a result of this horrendous war was one too many? Oh, excuse me. I forgot condi doesn't have a heart, or a brain, and she sure as heck aint got no soul.

And btw it also seems to me that Katherine Shrader, the writer of this article also needs to think about the literal meaning of her words before she writes them down for all the world to see:

Check out this example:
"The Qana attack comes at a damaging and difficult moment for Rice, who arrived in the Middle East for a second visit in a week and hoped to leave with progress that could lead to a decisive U.N. resolution to end the hostilities."

-snip-

Well, I for one, don't give a goldarned flying fart how damanging and difficult this 'moment' is for condi rice.

Imo, regardless of which side is at fault for starting this war {and I think both sides are at fault}, the Bush administration needs to work forcefully for an immediate ceasfire.

Imo, this shoulda happened from the getgo.

What will condi & bush do?
Unfortunately, we'll see.
Condi rice-
she's no role model
for me
[or imo- for anyone else who has a heart, and courage, and soul].


-Sistah Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 08:53 AM

Correction:

The first sentence of my previous post should read "Imo, white rice is such a shitty dish."

The word 'white' refers to the color of the rice and not to a race of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:33 AM

Whether or not one agrees with how one feels about the job being done by Secretary Rice, your leading with the "white rice" comment is despicable racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

guest, apalled,

So, a wife calls her dead husband a liar, and you think it is news?

The email posted earlier from THAT UN observer mentions that the attacks were a "tactical neccesity" indicating that, in his opinion as a military observer, he would have done the same thing. Can you please give the military qualifications of both his wife, and Kofi Amman, neither of whom was there, but both of whom seem willing to make judgements as to what happened even before the investigation has been made?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt..
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:31 AM

MASS MURRDER IS A WAR CRIME!
54 civilians reported slain today at Qana, 37 of them were children. These kids must have already been terrified from the weeks of bombing and shelling.

One former UN worker put it well on television earlier today when he said the Israeli military were out of control and simply did not care who they hit with their bombs.

Only 10 years ago Qana was hit by Israeli shells and 104 civilians were killed when the shells hit a UN post packed with refugees.
WALT

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo..now thrive the armourers
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:44 AM

NOW THRIVE THE ARMOURERS..
Two Air Atlas cargo planes laden with smart bombs for the Israeli military were diverted from Prestwick airport in Scotland today after hundreds of protestors gathered outside the terminus to ptotest at the US arming Israel with the help of Tony Blair.The planes were diverted to an unknown airport for refuelling.

TheUS is the armourer and main financier of the state of Israel .It supplies Israel with a range of the most modern warplanes and Apache helicopters and missiles for use against the Palestinian and Lebanese people.

HUGO

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,theresa.....from London to the Lebanon
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM

Trafalgar Square in London is full of people calling for an end to Israeli aggression in the Lebanon and Gaza.The square is awash with Palestinian flags and the cedar flag of the Lebanon.Dozens of writers,actors and musicians have been performing on stage and the mood of the crowd is angry at the latest news from the Lebanon.
theresa

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jan
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:00 AM

BOMBS OVER GAZA AND GLASGOW
The two US cargo planes carrying bombs to Israel were diverted from Scotland to RAF Mildenhall in Suffolk.

One has apparently now left that base for Israel.

The two planes were forced to divert from Prestwick because the Glasgow Stop The War Coalition had staged a protest in the airport terminus.
JAN

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:02 AM

Pray tell us guest "hugo", in the name of balance, who is the armourer and financier of Hamas and Hezbollah?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,WALT
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM

Israel has received billions of dollars worth of military aid from the USA and also substantial amounts of military aid from the UK and other countries.

This US military support,together with more general financial and economic and diplomatic support, has made Israel into a regional heavyweight power.....a power that is more than willing and able to inflict force on its neighbours in order for it to achieve its objectives.

Israel now has one of the most technologically advanced armed forces in the world.Arms exports from Israel long ago replaced oranges and grapes as the country's main export.Israel is now a heavily militarised society.

Without US aid Israel'e economy would be in a terrible mess and it would have had to have reached a settlement with its neighbours and the Plaestinians a long time ago.

As long as US aid lasts Israel will act as the arm of US imperialism in the Middle East enforcing its will over the control of oil and US .strategic interests.
No blood for oil!
walt
WALT

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM

Israel into a regional heavyweight power.

Israel now has one of the most technologically advanced armed forces in the world

Israel is now a heavily militarised society.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:35 PM

Tens of thousands of Lebanese ,christian and muslim ,took to the ruined streets of Beirut today to demand an end to the bombing and slaughter of civilians, and a withdrawal of Israeli forces from heir country.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

As I expected, there are those who are HAPPY to post about this tragedy of civilian deaths under attack.

Did they post when an 'insurgent' (terrorist) car bombing killed 54 civilians in Baghdad? Was this not targeted mass-murder?

Did they post when Arab militia raided African towns in Darfur men on horseback targeting one-on-one shooting farmers and raping their wives and daughters.

Do they post when hundreds of Hezbollah fired missiles hit Israeli towns and villages killing Jews, Muslims, and Christians alike?

No, they choose to post inflammatory and often inaccurate messages only when their enemy (Israel) kills their friends (terrorists) or their friends' victims.

It is a tragedy that could have been averted by the Lebanese taking responsibility for their own territory, but Hezbollah not initiating the conflict, and by the return of the captured Israelis.

As to the specifics of how this came to be, the first casualty in warfare is the truth, and the truth will come out eventually, but many of the posters above, particularly Guest, albert at the moment, have no interest in the truth, just in celebrating death.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM

Funny,but I seem to remember that when Bush,Blair,the neocons and the Israelis were pushing for the invasion of Iraq it was the anti war movement around the world which spoke consistently and clearly against the lies,the distortions and the reasons for the invasion.

It is the same anti war movement which is loudly protesting at th slaughter of the innocent in the Lebanon and Gaza and the West Bank.

Bush,Olmert and Blair are up to their necks in blood .They are wading in the stuff.

You must be rabid to suggest I am celebrating the deaths in Palestine ,Israel or Lebanon!

I have spent the past few years being actively opposed to the slaughter,the bombings and the invasions.

I look to the men with the guns and the power to take the decisions ...and there they are
Yo Blair!
Yo Olmert!
Yo Bush!
...............................................................albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:07 PM

They are Islamic radicals who hate you to Yo Albert Thats the fucking problem with the middle east these dickheads will kill everyone who stands in their way. Convert or die infidel dogs

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:27 PM

Excellent op-ed piece from the Washington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:34 PM

No the jihadis hate those neocons,oilbosses and torturers who have exploited their regions for decades.

They are the ones who have supported the local tyrants with arms and money ....
They are the ones who have grabbed the oilfields

They are the ones who have set up the military bases .

They are the ones who have ruthlessly exploited the Palestinians and made Palestine a running sore for millions across the Middle East.

There is an arc of terror but it runs from Tel Aviv through Downing St to Washington.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

Good op-ed from the Toronto Star

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:48 PM

Excellent op-ed piece from the Boston Globe

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM

Excerpt from C.Ham's post:

"MacKenzie also said that, given the amount of firepower going into Lebanon, the "death toll is unbelievably low ... The targets are being selected pretty darn closely." This does not make civilian deaths palatable. But it helps dispel the notion that Israel's campaign against Hezbollah is sloppy."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:04 PM

Mackenzie and Dallaire both Canadian Generals who found out first hand how the UN is such a bunch of stupid corrupt bastards

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM

Go to the Indymedia UK website for the photostory on Qana .

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,si..Stop The War
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM

Although the two US cargo planes carrying smart bombs were diverted from Scotland to the RAF airbase in Mildenhall,Suffolk.....the base itself [Mildenhall ] is completely run by the US military.

The RAF title is a fig leaf for domestic consumption.

Either way Blair is up to his neck in the gore and even his worm like cabinet seem to be turning over the slaughter in the Lebanon and Britain's grubby role as number two to the chief gangster.

Si..Stop The War

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,gren
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM

blessed are the peacemakers

Amir Fester is the first person to refuse his military call up during the current invasion of the Lebanon. He has been sentenced to a month's imprisonment in a military jail.

May his name be blessed as a peacemaker in these days of war and days of slaughter.

gren

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

""It was Monday night, about 10:30 in the evening," said the officer from the Palestinian security forces who lived in the house with his two wives and 19 children.

"I received a call with the number of the caller hidden. I thought it was a prank by one of my mates. I asked, 'Are you joking?' and got the reply, 'The Israeli army doesn't make jokes.' Then the caller hung up."

So Mr. Mamluk rounded up his children and took them to his brother's house before alerting his neighbours, who then set up barriers on the road outside to stop cars or pedestrians entering the area.

"They hit 25 minutes later," he said. "I'd expected an Apache [attack helicopter] but not an F-16 fighter jet."

Israeli aircraft have dropped thousands of flyers on the Gaza Strip in recent weeks, warning people all sites and buildings where weapons or military equipment are stored will be bombed."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,donnie
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:50 PM

GAZA:FREE FIRE ZONE!
Gaza is one vast free fire zone for the Israeli Occupation Forces.Collective Punishment of Palestinians in Gaza is the name of the game and Israel is going all out to win.

Most of the victims are children....so not a great deal of difference between the killings in Gaza and the killings in the Lebanon.

The IOF has blown up apartment blocks,houses,whole neighbourhoods,civic buildings and a power station.
It has destroyed electrical transmittors,powerlines, bridges and mobile phone masts.

It has killed old ladies, toddlers and teenagers.It has used toxic weapons according to Gaza doctors.Snipers have fired from rooftops and civilians have been used as shields.

Hundreds have been killed,many odf whom are children and many more injured.
The calorific count for Gazan children is very low and they are half starved.A senior UN official says Gaza is in the middle of a humanitarian crisis....and it has been caused by Israel which wants to pound the Palestinians into the dust!
DONNIE

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:58 PM

IOF?

Do all you guys and gals attend the same institution?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:00 PM

JUST OUT:

"Israel suspends south Lebanon strikes
From correspondents in Jerusalem
July 31, 2006
ISRAEL today suspended air strikes in southern Lebanon for 48 hours while it investigates the Qana bombings, US State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said.
"Israel has agreed to a 48-hour suspension of aerial activity in south Lebanon," Mr Ereli told reporters after talks between US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and top Israeli officials.

Israel would also coordinate with the United Nations on a 24-hour period of "safe passage" for civilians that wish to leave the area, Mr Ereli said.

Dozens of Lebanese women and children died in an Israeli strike on Qana, sparking renewed international calls for an immediate ceasefire."

Now, DONNIE and the rest of you, let's see if your asshole friends in Hezbollah suspend their rocket attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

The religious zealots in Iran believe the world would be a better place if everyone were Moslem, of the Shia variety (which predominates in Iran and Lebanon, but not with 90 percent of Moslems, who prefer the Sunni, or other minor sects.) Iran also believes that Israel must be destroyed, and Iranian leaders have not been shy about repeating this again and again in public. Hizbollah leaders repeat this demand. This basic Hizbollah goal, the destruction of Israel, makes negotiations with Israel difficult. Israel has apparently decided to forget about negotiations, and instead, take Hizbollah apart piece by piece.

Israeli troops have been fighting Hizbollah gunmen for over a quarter of a century. You have many Israeli infantrymen fighting in Lebanon now, who got practical advice from their fathers, who had battled Hizbollah back in the 1980s. Israel knows how to defeat Hizbollah, as they have been doing it for decades. But until the recent Hizbollah raids across the border, Israel has avoided going after Hizbollah on a large scale. This was an attempt to keep things quiet on the Lebanese border, and give the Lebanese a chance to settle the problem with Hizbollah peacefully. That seemed more likely, after a popular (and largely peaceful) Lebanese uprising last year that forced Syria to pull its troops out of Lebanon.

Since the 1980s, Syria had a force of over 30,000 soldiers in Lebanon. Originally sent in a peacekeepers during the 1975-90 Lebanese civil war, the Syrian force soon became guardians of Hizbollahs growing empire in southern Lebanon, and protector of Syrian economic interests (many of them criminal, like drug smuggling) in Lebanon. Without those 30,000 Syrian troops, Hizbollah, and the Lebanese Shia (about 35 percent of the population) were more vulnerable than they had been in over two decades. Intense negotiations commenced. No one wanted a resumption of the civil war, but all Lebanese were concerned about this state-within-a-state that Hizbollah had created in southern Lebanon. The UN was concerned as well. As part of the deal, when Israel pulled out, Hizbollah was to disarm and a force of 2,500 UN peace observers (UNIFIL) would watch over a new era of peace in the south. For the last seven years, Hizbollah has refused to abide by that deal, and most Lebanese were tired of the delays. Increasing the attacks against Israel seemed like a good idea, as it made Hizbollah seem more useful, if Israel did not strike back. The rest of the Lebanese political parties were not making threats, yet, about Hizbollahs refusal to disband and let southern Lebanon become part of Lebanon once more. Hizbollah wanted to make their autonomy in southern Lebanon permanent, but was unsure of how to do it. Hizbollah stumbled into war with Israel while seeking a solution to its problems with the rest of Lebanon.

Getting accurate news about the fighting in southern Lebanon is complicated by the fact that Hizbollah, the Lebanese and most of the media are more concerned about producing propaganda and excitement, than in reporting facts. Hizbollah knows, from long experience, that they cannot defeat Israel. But Hizbollah knows that it can spin the media. The Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon in 2000 was a peace offering that was, in typical Hizbollah fashion, simultaneously spurned and exploited. The same techniques are being used during the current war.

But now Israel is determined to cripple Hizbollah, a move that will lead to the organization either dying, or fading into insignificance. Hizbollah had made lots of enemies in the last 25 years, many of them in the Lebanese Shia community. If Hizbollah losses most of its economic and military assets, that will make it weak enough for other Lebanese groups to overwhelm it militarily and politically. This appears to be the Israeli plan, and the way things work in the Middle East, it appears to be working. Support for Hizbollah from the Arab world has been muted, compared to similar situations in the past. Even Iran is not happy with Hizbollahs actions, and has pointedly not sent any new weapons. Naturally, the Sunni Arab world is down on Hizbollah (and its explicit goal of replacing Sunni Islam with the Shia variety). While Lebanese politicians have been vocal in their support for Hizbollah, there has been no rush to provide any material support.

Israel has destroyed most of Hizbollah's economic assets, and is now going after the military ones. There are thousands of bunkers, fortified buildings and tunnel complexes in southern Lebanon that Hizbollah can use to fight from. Israeli troops may have to battle through all of them to cripple Hizbollahs military strength. Israel has done this successfully against the Palestinians for years. This will not be reported very accurately in the media because that would be boring. Israeli tactics are methodical and, well, not very dramatic. The mass media needs excitement, and when they can't find it, they invent it. Think back to the many battles Israel has had with the Palestinians, or the reporting on the American three week march on Baghdad in 2003, and remember what the pundits were saying, compared to what was actually happening. The mass media depends on most people not retaining any memories like that, and being willing to accept breathless, and inaccurate, reports of the current wars.

What makes war unpredictable is the fact that, while genius may have its limits, stupidity doesn't. Hizbollah is basically stupid. They are part of a movement dedicated to taking over the world. Israel just wants to survive. Hizbollah is part of an Arab military tradition that takes pride in a long string of defeats because that means eventually the enemy will get tired of beating on us and go away. This is how they turned the 2000 Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon (actually a peace offering) into a great military victory for Hizbollah. Another example of stupidity without limits.

When the dust has settled on this war in Lebanon, the remnants of Hizbollah will be busy rearranging the facts in order to produce another victory. But Hizbollah will no longer be the force it once was, and Lebanese soldiers and police will once more be patrolling southern Lebanon, rolling past the wreckage of Hizbollah bunkers and military facilities. The hundreds of buildings and bridges destroyed by Israeli bombs will be a reminder to the Lebanese of what happens when you allow part of your country to he hijacked by a bunch of religious maniacs. The majority of Lebanese were never happy about Hizbollah, but lacked the courage to do anything about it. Israel's not going away, but Hizbollah is. It's members can easily go back to being Lebanese, or get killed by an Israeli smart bomb, or sniper. Israelis have no such options, and have no choice but to fight and win. That makes a big difference on the battlefield. You can look it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 07:33 PM

That is a very insightful post, guest, I only wish you would let us know who is behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,SARAH
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 01:37 AM

I thought Israel withdrew from the Lebanon last time because it kept losing so many men in small scale firefights and ambushes and through mines that a withdrawal became inevitable.Weren't they followed by the quick collapse of their south Lebanese army allies??

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,seth
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 01:42 AM

I have been struck while reading the above postings about how many of those who have written in support of the Israeli armed forces are quite abusive to those who are opposed to the invasion of the Lebanon.

Seth

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,redhorse at work
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM

and when one poster is losing the argument, he accuses the others of "communism". McCarthy lives!

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ed
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:23 AM

My slogan for next week's march in London would be

Stop Blair supporting Bush's wars!!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:08 AM

bobad, the guest of 07:16 PM has cut and paste frtom this site..
israel strategy page

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:22 AM

Check the news - in fact the air strikes by Israel have continued to take place. Just because something gets announced to smooth things over in the media doesn't mean it actually happens.

But then misinformation is the name of the game here. The blitz on Lebanon is presented as having been a response to a wave of Hezbullah rockets, but that just wasn't the way it happened. In fact it was the other way round.

What triggered things off was a cross-border Hezbullah raid on June 12th in which two Israeli soldiers were captured and three killed. Five more Israeli soldiers were killed in the course of a counter-raid across the Labanese border.

The Israeli response the next day was to bomb Lebanon's International Airport in Beirut, and to carry out air strikes which killed about 40 Lebanese, including 10 members of one family and seven members of another. In reprisal Hezbollah fired rockets that killed two Israeli civilians.

And it went on from there, with each side escalating their attacks.

Aiming weaponry at civilian targets is clearly an atrocity and a war crime, and deserves the label "terrorism". But that applies whoever does it. And carrying out attacks against a ruthless and well armed enemy is stupid and irresponsible. But that applies to both sides as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:38 AM

Juicy Brucie, you need to go and check what I said about the UN post. It didn't take long to find the facts about the dates on the internet.

A war by Israel against Hamas and/or Hezbollah may well be justifiable. One against the Lebanese and the Lebanon is not. Probably one against the Palestinian Authority and on all inhabitants of the Gaza Strip is not (depends to some extent on links between PA and jihad)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,seth
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:33 AM

Human Rights Watch,the human rights organisation based in New York ,has stated today that the Israeli attack on Qana was an "indiscriminate " attack on civilian targets and thus a war crime.Dozens of children were killed in the bombing.
Will those responsible be brought to the war crimes tribunal?

Seth

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 12:43 PM

Seth, They use women and children to shield their equipment and bases. What is it about these "Martyrs To the Cause" you don't understand? They also hide next to UN bases, who they know will repair roads for them and chat on their radios in plain language describing all the Israeli military movements in their area. How convenient for them. Now when some get killed you have the audacity to call the Israeli's murderers. The Palestinian children are indoctrinated to die for the cause and are used every day, the Israelis don't do that to theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,seth
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM

Human Rights Watce seem to have trained observers in both Israel and the Lebanon.Itis they who have said that the Israeli attack on Qana is a war crime.

HRW has said that the air attack was an indiscriminate attack on innocent women and children which is illegal under international law.You seem to treat this as a flippant matter but the violent deaths of dozens of innocent children is a horrible crime...and is sure to have repercussions for all concerned.
seth

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:33 PM

"A statement issued today by the IDF said that responsibility for the Qana attack "rests with the Hezbollah" because it has used the area to launch "hundreds of missiles" into Israel. It added: "Residents in this region and specifically the residents of Qana were warned several days in advance to leave the village."

On July 27, Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said that Israel had given civilians ample time to leave southern Lebanon, and that anyone remaining could be considered a supporter of Hezbollah. "All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," he said, according to the BBC."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/f367bb39f880a02ab281d7155dc08b44.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hari
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM

Leave the area you say Bobad...how the hell were all those people ,thousands of them,supposed to leave the area when the roads,bridges,towns,villages and car convoys were being attacked with bombs and missiles.

What happened was an appalling act of savagery! Were they supposed to flee north to Tyre or Beirut ...both cities have come under sustained fire as have many other towns in th country.

No! This is the way that Israel has planned its invasion.It was supposed to be about the return of the captured soldiers but there fate must be very uncertain now after the slaughter of the innocents in Qana.
Israel has waged total war and has set the Lebanon back by decades.....more enemies have been created even the christian communities are sending young men to join Hizbollah to get revenge for the destruction of their country.
hari
ps
the bible says an eye for an eye
it doesn't say 50 dead children for 3 captured soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hari kiri
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 04:17 PM

And is it the Qu'ran which says:

"Hide behind your women and children when you fire on the enemy"

??

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM

They do seem to fire these rockets from the darnedest places - such as the roof of a UN observation post, from tower blocks in the middle of Beirut, from the cellars of residential blocs...

It still seems strange how the Israeli bombing has been presented as a reponse to Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets when the rockets only started getting unleashed after Israel had started to bomb Lebanon. Well, it doesn't actually seem strange that this is how it has been presented, but it does seem strange how many people seem to have bought that version of events.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 05:22 PM

that quote from the Koran is a myth. as are other quotes about receiving unlimited virgins in heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

It still seems strange how the Israeli bombing has been presented as a reponse to Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets when the rockets only started getting unleashed after Israel had started to bomb Lebanon. Well, it doesn't actually seem strange that this is how it has been presented, but it does seem strange how many people seem to have bought that version of events.

And if the Mudcat friends of Hezbollah keep repeating that propaganda lie, perhaps they too will begin to believe it.

Hezbollah has been firing Katyusha rockets into Israel, off and on, over the six years since Israel ended its occupation there.

As part of the deal that led to Israel's withdrawl in 2000, the Lebanese Government pledged to disarm Hezbollah. Instead, the Lebanese Government stood by and allowed Iran and Syria to rearm Hezbollah and allowed Hezbollah to operate a guerrilla militia in Lebanon.

When Hezbollah crossed the border into Israel and committed kidnapping and murder, it was the straw that broke the camel's back after six years of Katyushas.


The following message just arrived from a friend in Israel.
---

Shalom,

I am writing this note on Monday afternoon. Yesterday was
the unfortunate incident in Kfar Kana.

I am feeling a little calmer now. You should have seen me
last night and this morning. It has to do with the bombing
in Kfar Kara and the 48 hour "no air strike" truce we agreed
to and Condoleeza's last press conference.

It's like we Israelis are stuck in some Greek tragedy or
some movie that has a sad ending with the hero dying. And no
matter how many times you see it, the ending is always the
same. It seems no matter who Israel is acting/fighting with
on the stage, we always end up being the bad guy and the
crowd hating our guts. The true villain walks off with the
girl and the money. The play is cut short before we get to
finish the job we set out to do. I mean haven't we been in
this situation before, in 1996 in Lebanon. In 2002 in Jenin
(the "massacre")?

Have you seen the air force clips that were aired last
night? I will ask Benay, my wife, to attach them to the
bottom of this mail.
They show how the Hizbolla shoot rockets from behind
civilian apartment buildings and then, my friends, you watch
as the truck carrying the rocket launcher drives into a car
park under a house! How the heck does anyone expect us to
clear out these rockets without bombing the house??? The
local Lebanese population was warned by Israel to leave the
area three days in advance. Some locals stayed because the
couldn't afford to leave. I read that Lebanese taxis charge
$1000 to go to Beirut. So someone please explain to me why
these locals didn't hide in a building where there were no
rockets or any ammo dumps?

This morning the reporter on Sky News asked our former
foreign minister why the Israeli army didn't go house to
house in Kfar Kana and confirm, room by room, just who is in
that room and then determine if that person is a civilian or
a combatant. For god's sake! Give me a break! Kiryat Shemona
was shot with 100 (one hundred) rockets in less than 1 hour
yesterday. Did the Hizbollah go room by room looking for
civilians? If they had the chance, yes they would. They
would find the kids and make sure they shot each one. I know
it. You know it . We just lived through it. It was called
suicide bombers.

Afula Hospital (Emek Medical Center) prepares for War.
Anyone who has toured with me knows I love maps. But I
probably have never pointed out or mentioned Afula. It is a
small town dead in the center of the Jezreel Valley. It's
famous for "Golani Falafel" and until "Golani Falafel" is
publicly traded on NASDAQ, most of you will never hear of
Afula.

Last week Afula hospital was targeted by Hizbollah long
range missiles. How do I know it was "targeted"? 5 rockets
of the 5 shot landed near Afula hospital. Take a look at one
of the attached photos. There are no army bases or sensitive
facilities in Afula. Hizbollah targeted the Afula hospital.
Should you be surprised that Hizbolla targeted a hospital?
Well, they've already targeted Rambam hospital in Haifa and
hit the hospitals in Nahariya and Tsfat. So they
intentionally target our hospitals and the world expects us
to go room by room looking for civilians in Lebanon. But we
covered this topic in the first part of this mail.


Benay [Jeff's wife] volunteers in the ER of Afula hospital.
She has prepared 300 files for a mass-wounded situation. The
ER is in the basement of the hospital and it is built as one
huge bomb and chemical warfare shelter. Funny how there
isn't a single hospital in the Arab world that would even
consider the necessity to build a hospital in a bomb
shelter. Why? Because they know we would never target a
hospital.

Yesterday the hospital decided to empty out its top floors
and bring all the patients down to the lower levels. Lets
think what this entails. Cancel all unnecessary operations.
Kick out any patient you can. Double up on bed space in the
lower floors and have the staff and patients live and work
in 1/3 of the space they are used to. Wards are now
intermingled. Patient beds are doubled up. Have I mentioned
about privacy, sanitation, confusion...

Here's a quote from the instruction sheet given by the
hospital's director to the various wards:
- Dept. heads will do their utmost to lower the number of
patients in their departments.
- Social Services will encourage patients to go home.
- The operating rooms will perform only cancer and emergency
operations.

But how does the head of the hospital end her directive?
And here's the part that keeps me going:
"In this war we will be tested as a society, as an
organization (hospital) and as individuals.
Working together, in full cooperation, we will complete the
very complicated task before us:
- to clear the wards
- work in very tight surroundings
- give the best service that we can
- be prepared for a mass-wounded situation."

So what's the part that keeps me going, that makes me proud
of being an Israeli and a Jew? It's the fact that Afula
Hospital, that same hospital being targeted by Hizballah, is
used by Arabs and Jews. It is staffed by Arabs and Jews. 17%
of its Department Heads are Arabs, proportionate to their
percentage in the total population. The Moslems and
Christians and Druze and Circasians all work together and
treat all their patients equally... and guess what? That
won't change no matter how many rockets Hizbollah drops on
the Afula Hospital. That's what makes us different from our
enemies. That's what's makes me proud.

So you see, we are the good guys. And we have to win.

We're all in this together,

Jeff

Go to http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/ and click on the right column
1) IDF Video: Hizbullah missile fire from within the village
of Kafr Qana
2) IDF Video: Hizbullah use of civilian shields

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,roberta
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM

The BBC has reported that the video clip released by Israel to justify the attack on Qana showing "rockets" being fired from some buildings were not of Qana.

Probably yet another mistake by Israel.

What a bunch of bare faced liars the Israeli apologists are .The truth is that Israel has gone out to collectively punish the Lebanese people---all sections of them, for the crime of fighting back against the Israeli onslaught.

Lebanese prisoners are still in Israeli jails ...there are over 100000 landmines still killing people on Lebanese land while the people of Palestine continue to be bombed,strafed and shelled on a daily basis.

What is happening in Gaza is being somewhat overlooked because of the invasion to the north but the strangling of Gaza is also a crime against humanity.

I think Israel has entered a quagmire and is going to regret it so brutally invaded its neighbour to the north.The road back to the border could well be a long and bloody one but the extremists in power in Tel Aviv will not be the ones to make a meaningful peace with Hamas or Hizbollah.

They have ordered new big bombs from the USA but did they order enough body bags?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 07:17 PM

"make a meaningful peace with Hamas or Hizbollah."

No peace, meaningful or otherwise, can ever be made with terrorists whose sole mission is to eliminate the LEGITIMATE state of Israel. The only reasonable way to deal with them is elimination, and this Israel is in the process of carrying out.

It is truly sad to see the terrorist sympathizers on this thread succumbing to the obvious and simplistic ploy of the Hizbollah cowards who fire their rockets from the cover of civilian dwellings and UN observer posts then sit back and gloat as the world's press is only too happy to accomodate their propaganda victories when Israel strikes back.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM

"One against the Lebanese and the Lebanon is not."

Then tell Hezbollah to stop. Israel will also. Simple, Bridgie.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ray
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:39 AM

"cowards"......What could be more cowardly than to fly a modern jet warplane over Gaza and shoot a missile into a crowded apartment building and then fly home for a nice cup of tea and a biscuit?

Meanwhile back at the half demolished apartment block rescuers are trying to dig out children and old people with their bare hands.

Who are the cowards? It would take a real act of bravery to accept that the Palestinians have legitimate rights and to deal with them.

Those rights include the right of return for Palestinians expelled from Israel in both and 1967 and 1948.

It also includes the right not to be attacked on the West Bank or Gaza on a daily basis and the removal of armed Zionist colonies from the West Bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Thomas
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

BREAD NOT BOMBS!
People in the city of Swansea in Wales will be holding a candlelit vigil this evening starting at 6pm and going on for 24 hours.

The vigil is in support of the people of Palestine and Lebanon who are being killed,wounded and terrorised by the Iraeli military forces.

They will be calling for
an immediate ceasefire
an end to the invasion
the relief of Gaza
and humanitarian aid to be delivered instead of bombs.

The vigil will start at 6pm at the Castle Sq Gardens in the city centre this evening [tuesday].
Thomas

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:32 AM

Hello, Peace, try really really hard to understand this.

Hezbollah may be attacking Israel. But not everyone in the Lebanon are Hezbollah. Nor is the Lebanese government Hezbollah. The infrastructure of the Lebanon may be used by Hezbollah but it is not theirs, it belongs to the people of the Lebanon and the Lebanese government.

Israel is not attacking only Hezbollah. Yet it is only Hezbollah that is the legitimate target, to the extent that it is. The Lebanese people and the Lebanese government cannot drive out Hezbollah, or make them stop firing missiles. Yet they are attacked because they cannot.

Underneath this is the issue of whether Israel is rightfully entitled to occupy land that its forbears left 2,000 years ago, and to drive from that land those who (and whose forbears) occupied it for 2,000 years. Were the powers that be entitled to decide this in 1948 or 1967? Did those powers have the proper right to give away the land of others? Those are the underlying issues, but the present one is far simpler.   Those issues determine whether Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorists or freedom fighters. But they do not determine the right and wrong of Israel's attacks on the Lebanon.

The present issue is this. Assuming, for the purposes only of this post and discussion of it, that Israel is entitled to defend itself against Hezbollah, does that entitle it to attack other Lebanese and other civilians, to destroy the infrastructure, the roads, the power, the water supplies of Lebanon, to turn the entire south of Lebanon to a wasteland, metaphorically to salt the land, to bury alive civilians hiding in their basements, to tell the elderly, cripples and babes in arms to flee or be immolated?

The answer is plainly "No".

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,from Qana
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM

Qana is ,or rather was, a mixed christian and muslim village in southern Lebanon a few miles north of the border with Israel.
In 1996 a UN post full of local refugees was struck by shells and over a hundred of these people were killed with a hundred more badly wounded.

Two days ago the same village was hit again by an Israeli bomb killing around 60 people ,some 37 of them were children. The phraes "Never Again "obviously does not apply to the residents of Qana.

The following is part of a statement issued by survivors in Qana.

"We thought that the massacre the enemy carried out at the UN outpost would cause him shame and that he would not repeat it but the years have proved that this arrogant enemy ,when he senses failure in battle against he heroic fghters of the resistance turns to crimes and kills innocent civilians"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,TEPP
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:36 AM

Teachers and educators belonging to TEPP [Teaching English for Palestine Purposes ] ,a network of language teachers in Gaza and the Lebanon and neighbouring countries have spoken out against the destruction of both Gaza and the Lebanon.

They have said that children and parentd have been killed,schools blown up and houses destroyed making education a nightmare for teachers and students alike.

The one thing that the children being bombed will learn to do is hate says the Tepp members and they are calling for no more Qanas and no more bombings.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM

For people who are identifying with one particular side of the conflict are quick to paint others are "Zionist apologists" or Hezbollah apologists.

Under international law, there can be no doubt that many of the actions carried out by Hezbollah and Hamas constitute war crimes that must be punished.

and under the same international laws, Israel's crimes against civilians in Lebanon constitute war crimes that must be punished.

Many of us shocked by the events in Lebanon condemn all forms of illegal violence, irrespective of who commits them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:02 AM

"when the rockets only started getting unleashed after Israel had started to bomb Lebanon. "

False statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

"we are the good guys"

There are no "good guys" in this aside from some of the rescue workers and the medics.
...................

And bearded bruce - that wasn't a false statement. Yes, there have been Hezbollah rockets in the past, just as there have been Israeli bombings, but in this current episode it was Israel that escalated from a small-scale ground clash to bombing raids, most specifically with a raid on Beirut International Airport, which is far away from Hezbollah territory, and was an attack directly against Lebanon rather than Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,zac
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM

As someone wote in one of the papers today the capture of two soldiers on the Lebanese border was hardly the Tet offensive.

Israel is holding hundreds of Lebanese in its prisons and will have to release some of them to get its soldiers back.

Their predicament must be desperate as is the situation for those hundreds of Lebanese and thousands of Palestinians held in Israeli jails.....many of whom are women and children.
zac

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:04 AM

The Progress Report
by Judd Legum, Faiz Shakir, Nico Pitney
Amanda Terkel and Payson Schwin
www.progressreport.org
7/31/06

MIDDLE EAST
A Return To The Consensus

Yesterday saw the Mideast crisis escalate further, with the tragic loss of dozens of Lebanese lives after an Israeli air strike in Qana, and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's aborted second effort at diplomacy. It's important to remember how we got here: Since President Bush took office, and even more so following the September 11 attacks, there has been wide bipartisan agreement on America's national security priorities: to support a sustained NATO-led effort to help rebuild the failed state in Afghanistan; to aggressively contain Iraq and weaken Saddam Hussein's regime with targeted sanctions; to work with allies to battle the global threats of terrorist networks, nuclear proliferation and climate change, with particular focus on the nuclear threats in Iran and North Korea; and to lead the Middle East to a comprehensive resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In each case, President Bush disregarded the consensus, and the consequences are evident in the crises erupting around the globe. Now, with the Middle East upturned again by the war in Lebanon, the case for a return to this progressive bipartisan national security consensus is stronger than ever.

ADDRESSING THE ROOT CAUSE OF HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS: Former National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft wrote on Sunday that Hezbollah is not the "root cause" of the current Mideast crisis, as President Bush and administration officials have said; "it is a derivative of the cause, which is the tragic conflict over Palestine that began in 1948." Others have echoed his analysis. Former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell (D-ME), who led diplomatic advances in Northern Ireland and the Middle East, said recently, "There's only one resolution of this conflict and that's going to be through a negotiation that produces a two state solution, Israeli and Palestinian." Likewise, in a speech to the Brookings Institution on Friday, Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) argued that the "core of all challenges in the Middle East remains the underlying Arab-Israeli conflict. The failure to address this root cause will allow Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorists to continue to sustain popular Muslim and Arab support, continuing to undermine America's standing in the region, and the governments of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and others -- whose support is critical for any Middle East resolution."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

" Israel's crimes against civilians in Lebanon constitute war crimes that must be punished. "

Israel is not targeting civilians, freda, it is targeting Hizbollah terrorists who are using civilians as shields - there is a difference you know.

I agree that it should be investigated for war crimes by an impartial international court and suffer the consequences if found guilty.

I also agree that this conflict is causing untold horror for the people of both countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

reply to bobad,

You must be one of only a very small number across the world who still believes that Israel is not targetting civilians deliberately.

From the very beginning Israel has set out to inflict collective punishment on the Lebanese people.

Early on it attacked the suburbs of south Beirut, car convoys full of refugees, roads and bridges, power stations and petrol stations , schools and so much more.

Hundreds of innocent people have been killed and hundreds more have been maimed.Tens of thousands have been terrorised by the Israeli military.

700000 have become refugees in their own land.

The Israeli military lied about Qana ..where it committed mass murder slaughtering women and children while they slept.

They claimed that it was a place where Hizbollah fired rockets from but all the eye witnesses including western film crews said there was absolutely no sign of any military equipment there apart from the shards of the American made bomb that the Israelis used to destroy the building.

The Israelis delivered the "Shock And Awe" tactics that the US used in Iraq and showed the same lack of concern about the lives of the civilians in the freefire zone.

It is far more likely that the Israelis want to clear the south of Lebanon up to the Litani river which has always been one of the Israeli strategic goals for its northern border.

The actions of the Israeli military and its political leadership have been widely condemned across the world.It has attacked civilians with the most powerful of weapons in a totally indiscriminate way. At least half of its victims have been children.

Of course the Israeli should face an international war tribunal to answer for their crimes....but I am not holding my breath.Two decades ago the USA was found guilty in an International Court of mining a port in Nicaragua...but totally ignored the findings of the Court.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:43 AM

Reply to ifor

Whereas it is obvious that Hizbollah is purposely tageting civilians it is not as obvious that Israel is for all the reasons that have been previously cited (no need to go over the same ground). Eventually the truth will out and even though a tribunal's sanction can be ignored, the world's opinion is what really counts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:38 AM

I don't totally agree about public opinion being what really counts in the world. Although of course it is extremely important.

Many times during our recent history policies have been pursued in defiance of world opinion.

The war in Vietnam comes to mind.That war took place in the face of world opinion and indeed of a huge domestic anti war movement in the USA itself.

The war dragged on for years and a million Vietnamese were killed in the bombing,the freefire zones and in the fighting etc.Agent Orange is still killing people in Vietnam.

More recently of course the USA has turned Iraq into a killing zone despite huge worldwide anti protests.

While we can console ourselves that we are right and the aggressors are wrong people are still going to be killed,wounded and terrorised in the countries under attack which means the wargang have to be stopped.

In the west it means continuing to build up a massive, active anti war movement in solidarity with the people of Palestine and the Lebanon.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,david
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:25 PM

Reports are coming in that humanitarian aid convoys are unable to reach the south of Lebanon because the danger of airstrikes by Israel. Israel has refused to give these convoys safe passage    and thus the remaining population in the south are facing an appalling crisis with the lack of water,lack of water and other essentials for life.
david

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:29 PM

"In the west it means continuing to build up a massive, active anti war movement in solidarity with the people of Palestine and the Lebanon"

To that I will add: "and Israel and all other countries that find themselves under attack"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,neil
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM

Your argument is a bit like blaming the victim for being beaten up.

The Palestinians have been expelled,massacred,imprisoned and humiliated for decades.

The Lebanese have been invaded twice by Israel in 25 years with Beirut smashed up both times.

Some 20000 Lebanese died in the first invasion and we can all see what is happening in the second attack.
neil

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:55 PM

For heaven's sake Bobad, can you not read? Israel is not only attacking Hezbollah. It is attacking UN observers, Lebanese civilians, the Lebanese state, the Lebanese infrastructure that non-Hezbollah Lebanese need, and so ad infinitum. It begins to look as if you simply tar all Lebanese with the same brush, which in turn begins to look "inappropriate" (one of my least favourite words).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:19 PM

"Your argument is a bit like blaming the victim for being beaten up"

I guess that all depends on who one see's as the victim. To me the victims are all the innocents killed or injured on both sides of this conflict. That includes the killed and injured Israeli innocents as well as the Lebanese. It also includes the innocent Israelis killed by suicide bombers as well as the innocent Palestinians who are killed when Israel retaliates.

Who do you see as being the victim?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:36 PM

You seem, Mr. Bridge, to have missed the posts, pastes and links to the articles describing how Hizbollah is using UN posts and civilians as shields for their rocket launching, or are you just ignoring them because they do not support your position?

As for Israel's attacks against the infrastructure in Lebanon, this is a tactical defensive measure to prevent the restocking of Hizbollah's rockets and not a punishment of the Lebanese people. The enemy is Hizbollah. If Israel wanted to punish Lebanon, Beirut would be flattened by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:06 PM

VICTIMS OF VIOLENCE
I see the victims as those driven out of their towns,cities and villages at the point of a gun in 1948.Those people are now elderly and do not have the right to return to their homes and homeland...their children are the ones being bombed and shot at in Gaza and the West Bank.They are the ones who were murdered by Israel's fascist allies in Sabra and Shatila in 1982 while the Israeli army guarded the perimeter of the refugee camps.

The victims are the thousands of Palestinians who have had their homes in the West Bank demolished by bulldozers.Often they had to get out with only a few minutes notice.In some cases they did not manage to get out at all.Rachel Corrie was killed trying to stop one such demolition.

The victims are also the hundreds of Palestinian children and women held in Israeli jails.Many were kidnapped from their homes by the Israeli army which illegally occupies the West Bank.

The victims were those Palestinian teenagers who had their legs and arms broken as a matter of policy by Israeli soldiers during the last Intifada.

The victims include the Palestinian boy of 8 and the girl of 12 both shot dead at close range by Israeli soldiers.

The victims were those pounded and pulverised in Jenin 5 years ago. Fiftytwo were killed in that atrocity...some were fighters but at least half were civilians and one was a disabled man in a wheelchair .

The victims are the kids in Qana and all those others blown up,crushed or incinerated in the present invasion of the Lebanon.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:08 PM

Just as I thought, guest "hugo", idealogues of your stripe don't regard the innocents on other side as human beings capable of pain and suffering, in that regard you are no better than the terrorist killers you support.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM

"If Israel wanted to punish lebanon, Beirut would be flattened by now"
says Bobad............................................................
But that is what has happened! And it has happened twice in the past 24 years.
Neighbourhoods destroyed,apartment buildings crushed, streets torn apart and civic buildings blown up.
Thousands of residents killed in the lst onslaught when Israeli tanks and artillery lined up in rows on the hills overlooking the city to pour down shells while F-II jets fired missiles and dropped bombs.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:55 PM

Hizbollah is using UN posts and civilians as shields -

this is a claim that is often cited as a justification for bombing civilians - also that Hezbollah is "hiding" among civilians. What balderdash. It is a justification for indiscriminate genocide against the Lebanese people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:04 PM

"To me the victims are all the innocents killed or injured on both sides of this conflict. " True, victimns of terrorist attacks by the other side. The huge majority of those have been killed by the IDF, but the smaller number killed by Hezbollah's rockets are just as dead, and just as innocent.

And all this has happened because of a conflict arbitrarily escalated out of a stupid skirmish. The suggestion that this all happened in response to a rain of Hezbollah rockets and shells across the border in recent months or even years, is just not true.

If you hit someone on the head with a meat-axe not many courts would be impressed by the claim you were trying to kill a wasp which had been sitting on the dead man's forehead. (Typical cowardly wasp behaviour.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM

reply to ifor:

You must be one of only a very small number across the world who still believes that Israel is not targetting civilians deliberately.

you mean the civilians among which Hezbollah is hiding when they train their people, paint the walls with their slogans, and fire into Israeli territory indiscriminately with their sophisticated rockets?

From the very beginning Israel has set out to inflict collective punishment on the Lebanese people.

Uh, what 'beginning' are we talking about, the beginning where Hezbollah crossed from Lebanese into Israeli territory to kill and kidnap Israelis?

Early on it attacked the suburbs of south Beirut, car convoys full of refugees, roads and bridges, power stations and petrol stations , schools and so much more.

Early on Hezbollah fired hundreds of rockets into the city of Haifa, into Nazareth, and never stopped saying it was going to fire more and better rockets.

Hundreds of innocent people have been killed and hundreds more have been maimed.Tens of thousands have been terrorised by the Israeli military.

Much of the damage has been done to Hezbollah held territory. Either the Lebanese government and army could not or would not control the territory and restrict the aggressive planning, training, and activities of the terror group Hezbollah. Oh, and when you live in Northern Israel and are aware of hundreds of rockets coming your way, you are terrorized.

700000 have become refugees in their own land.

Then Hezbollah determined that their own land became a training ground for terrorism and aggression across the border into Israel.

The Israeli military lied about Qana ..where it committed mass murder slaughtering women and children while they slept.

The Israeli military did not lie, but you and others on this thread were overjoyed to pounce on the deaths of these people to make a case.

They claimed that it was a place where Hizbollah fired rockets from but all the eye witnesses including western film crews said there was absolutely no sign of any military equipment there apart from the shards of the American made bomb that the Israelis used to destroy the building.

I believe there are photographs that put your contention in dispute. The firing upon Israel from areas with many civilians in them is a tactic used by terrorists for generations. Check out the flick "The Battle Of Algiers" which was put together with the help of the terrorists themselves. They used every avenue including religious garb of the women, civilian targets, civilian bombers, and every bit of publicity they could generate. So does Hezbollah and Hamas.

The Israelis delivered the "Shock And Awe" tactics that the US used in Iraq and showed the same lack of concern about the lives of the civilians in the freefire zone.

If that were true, there would be tens of thousands of civilian deaths, not scores.

It is far more likely that the Israelis want to clear the south of Lebanon up to the Litani river which has always been one of the Israeli strategic goals for its northern border.

It is very likely the Israelis want to eliminate the firing of enemy rockets into their territory.

The actions of the Israeli military and its political leadership have been widely condemned across the world.It has attacked civilians with the most powerful of weapons in a totally indiscriminate way. At least half of its victims have been children.

It is unfortunate that you and your co-GUESTs take such joy in that. Bombs are clumsy discriminaters, as are rockets.


Of course the Israeli should face an international war tribunal to answer for their crimes....but I am not holding my breath.Two decades ago the USA was found guilty in an International Court of mining a port in Nicaragua...but totally ignored the findings of the Court.

And in your courts Hezbollah would receive a series of medals for bringing on this war which Israel did not want nor start. And your comment on Nicaragua has nothing to do with this thread.

But I don't mind if you hold your breath!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:13 PM

Mr.McGrath, what you say is true but it begs the question; "What is Hizbollah doing massed on the border of Israel with thousands of rockets aimed at them?"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:13 PM

Red Cross workers and residents of Qana, where Israeli bombing killed at least 60 civilians, have told Inter Press Service that no Hezbollah rockets were launched from the city before the Israeli air strike. (Tuesday, August 1, 2006 by Inter Press Service )

The Israeli military has said it bombed the building in which several people had taken shelter, more than half of them children, because the Army had faced rocket fire from Qana. The Israeli military has said that Hezbollah was therefore responsible for the deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

'Righteous Gentiles' is the phrase used for those non-Jews who risked their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust.

What we need now is some Righteous Jews among the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

freda, I suggest you read the letter in this post sent to C.Ham from a friend in Israel:

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham - PM
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM

THE TERROR TIME WILL END!
It 's true that many Israelis believe that they are the victims in the on going conflicts between Israel,its neighbours and the Palestinians.
And of course they are continually fed that belief by the various govts of Israel who constantly seek to dominate Their neighbours.


However,they are victims in the sense that the whites in South Africa believed they were the victims of african aggression.

The position of the Zionists is basically unsustainable in the long term.....there will be more and more violence and wars and the pounding of neighbours....but there will still be neighbours even if the new border runs up to the outskirts of Beirut.And there will still be the Palestinians to deal with and they are like the undigested meal in the belly of the beast.


The Israelis will keep on killing ,backed by the power of the USA but it won't last forever.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:31 PM

"What is Hizbollah doing massed on the border of Israel with thousands of rockets aimed at them?"

A similar question could be levelled at Israel. Except their vastly greater weaponry is slightly different, and with a modern airforce you don't need to be massed on a border.

So far as Hezbollah is concerned I'd imagine that some misguided notion that the arsenal of rockets might deter an attack by Israel might have entered into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:38 PM

freda,

"this is a claim that is often cited as a justification for bombing civilians - also that Hezbollah is "hiding" among civilians. What balderdash. It is a justification for indiscriminate genocide against the Lebanese people."


First,

""this is a claim that is often cited as a justification for bombing civilians - also that Hezbollah is "hiding" among civilians."

How does the fact that it is cited make it false? Do you claim they are NOT in those areas being attacked by Israel? Have you any evidence of that to present to justify your allegations?

The International laws pertaining to war specify that the side USING civilians as shields, locating military units in the midst of civilian areas, specifically targeting civilians in areas with no military targets, and putting war materials in prohibited places such as schools and mosques is in violation, and guilty of war crimes. THAT is Hezbollah, not Israel.



And secondly,

"It is a justification for indiscriminate genocide against the Lebanese people."


Israel has shown that its attacks are not indiscriminate, nor genocidal. The Hezbollah attacks, using unguided mass bombardment rockets against a civilian population ARE, and much closer to genocide than the targetting of military forces that hide in civilian areas.

Do you claim that the rocket launchers and arms of Hezbollah are NOT a military target, but that Israeli civilians and chilsdren ARE?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

"So far as Hezbollah is concerned I'd imagine that some misguided notion that the arsenal of rockets might deter an attack by Israel might have entered into it. "


The FACT that Hezbollah has been firing them, randomely, into civilian areas of Israel for the last 6 years or so shows the falsehood of this statement.


" The suggestion that this all happened in response to a rain of Hezbollah rockets and shells across the border in recent months or even years, is just not true. "

Care to give some indication which angell came down from heavan and told you this? There is NO evidence presented by you to support your claim,and much to indicate that you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM

1 Israel has a blatant record of major and minor invasions and raids into the Lebanon

2 Think for example to april 1996 when Israeli forces rained shells onto Qana killing over 100 refugees at te UN post in one barrage.

3 Think of the battering of Beirut in 1982 in which thousands were killed and the city destroyed.It looked like Dresdenin 1945.

4 Think of the massacres ar Sabra and shatila camps outside Beirut in which around 2000 palestinian women and children were killed despite Israeli and American guarantees of safety.

5 Think of the Lebanese prisoners in Israel and the assassinations,the landmines left behind and the illegal airflights over the Lebanon.....
its almost endless
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:28 PM

"Hezbollah has been firing them, randomely, into civilian areas of Israel for the last 6 years or so"

I've been hunting around for the actual dates when Hezbollah has fired rockets across the border over the period preceding this latest war, and I couldn't find any within the last couple of years. That surprised me, because my impression from the media had been that there had indeed been some kind of constant bombardment. The latest case I have seen a specific mention of was back in 2002.

If there has been a steady continuation of random rockets aimed by Hezbollah at civilian areas over the last couple of years and the last few months, I think it would be useful to have the instances. And that's a serious request, not a debating point I'm making.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:49 PM

Bobad, I do not accept that the end - namely killing or seeking to kill Hezbollah fighters - even if itself justifiable - justifies the means under discussion, namely killing others.

I might, if I were convinced of the alleged facts, condemn Hezbollah for hiding amongst civilians, or for fighting near UN posts, but that does not justify Israel killing the civilians nor the UN officials. I don't care where Hezbollah are hiding. Even if it were in my house (which it isn't) that would not entitle the Israelis to shell my house,for I am not Hezbollah. Indeed, until the events that imelled me to start this thread I was pretty pro-Israel.

The innocent should not suffer for the wrongs of the guilty. If the current US and Israel governments cannot see that, they are even more morally bankrupt than I feared.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM

"The innocent should not suffer for the wrongs of the guilty."

That is true. And I think you should say that to Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:29 AM

"Hello, Peace, try really really hard to understand this."

Richard, hello back to you. Please now, YOU try real hard to understand THIS! People rob banks because that's where the money is. Simple. Hezbollah is in Lebanon using civilians as cover for rocket attacks. Do you suggest that instead of attacking Hezbollah where they are that Israel attack them where they aren't? True, there would be no Lebanese casualties. Just Israeli casualties. I suppose that that would be OK, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Simon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:10 AM

I have just read that a group of Israelis commandos has raided a hospital in Baalbak well in the north of Lebanon...the report says some ofthe commandos are trapped inside the hospital and a fierce firefight is going on with Hizbollah otside and the commandos inside.
simon

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:17 AM

"I have just read that a group of Israelis commandos has raided a hospital in Baalbak well in the north of Lebanon...the report says some ofthe commandos are trapped inside the hospital and a fierce firefight is going on with Hizbollah otside and the commandos inside.
simon"

The spelling is Baalbek.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:23 AM

"Baalbek operation completed successfully

IDF commando units return safely to Israel after nightly raid in Lebanese territory. Several Hizbullah gunmen, killed, at least three terrorists captured in operation. Lebanese officials say 10 civilians killed in IDF air strike"

FYI

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,garry
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:33 AM

I thought hopitals were meant to be places exempt from being targetted from military action?
garry

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,yanno
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:35 AM

Yeah,operations against a hospital finished,patients captured or is that kidnapped and many civilians dead!
yanno

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 02:55 AM

Peace - I have said it several times. Israeli attacks on Hezbollah and only Hezbollah may be justifiable. That depends on a different argument, namely whether Hezbollah are freedom fighters or terrorists.

Even if Hezbollah had taken civilians hostage, it would not be justifiable to kill the hostages in order to kill the Hezbollah personnel. It might be militarily advantageous, but it would be wrong. If you don't understand that then you do not know right from wrong. You advance only the argument of necessity. The end does not justify the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,seth
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:24 AM

5 members of one family killed on the raid against Baalbak.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:55 AM

Today I was at a meeting with Muslim Australians. One of the women on the committee I have been working on is from Baalbak, she is a government worker in the area of human rights and anti discrimination. As we had lunch we watched the bombings of Baalbak, while she explained to me that this was her home and many of her family still live there.

I hope none of the people killed were members of her family.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:09 AM

A country that forces 700000 people out of their homes as refugees and indiscriminately bombs children cannot expect to be seen as the victim in this conflict.

It has invaded to grab yet more land and to ethnically cleanse its population and has attacked just about anything that moves including fleeing civilians,ambulances,Un observers and the elderly.

I think it will end badly for the Israelis because they have lost the psychological advantage and the Lebanese resistance led by Hizbollah has put up a stiff fight.

What happens when more Israelis are taken prisoner??
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:36 AM

Just in case some of the guests hadn't noticed, Israel is a small country, with modern weapons.
If the artillery is withdrawn from the lebanese border- ie is out of range of it- then it's in range of the Eygptian, Syrian or Jordanain border.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,JOSH
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:51 AM

Israel is a small country but it has one of the most pwerful military forces in the world
with all the latest technology,jet warplanes,attack helicopters,tank brigades and heavy artillery.
Its soldiers are highly trained and motivated.
It is even a nuclear weapons power.

It is getting military support from the world's strongest superpower and is the recipient of huge quantities of military and economic aid from the USA .

Without that aid it would have gone bankrupt years ago.
JOSH

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:22 AM

"I've been hunting around for the actual dates when Hezbollah has fired rockets across the border over the period preceding this latest war, and I couldn't find any within the last couple of years. That surprised me, because my impression from the media had been that there had indeed been some kind of constant bombardment. The latest case I have seen a specific mention of was back in 2002."

A reasonabale request.


Nov 21, 2005

May, 2005


"And Hezbollah instituted some major changes in tactics: No longer would it confine itself largely to firing Katyusha rockets at small border towns in northern Israel; Hezbollah acquired rockets that can reach Haifa, the industrial center of northern Israel. "

March, 2005


http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/sib/2_05/hez_rocket.htm


Should I take another 5 minutes and look for more???

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:01 AM

"Ten militants were killed and five were captured in and around the hospital during the operation, Halutz said. The IDF also destroyed a large supply of missiles during the raid."

So, missiles are now standard Lebonese hospital equipment?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:10 AM

August 2, 2006

Qana

My reader may be wondering what happened to all the coverage from Qana. As usual, when the "liberal" media begin to realize they've been had, the story disappears. But it is never properly corrected. We get a few days of blazing headlines, and round-the-dial TV coverage of an "Israeli massacre", laden with innuendos, and then -- the fade-out. This will not do.

What happened at Qana was, almost certainly, what happened at Jenin in 2002, what happened on a beach in Gaza a few weeks ago, and what has happened on innumerable other occasions. The Israelis are instantaneously accused and convicted of a monstrous and perhaps intentional act of butchery, by people quite incurious about the facts. Their pathological hatred of "Zionism" is all the proof they need. These are people who seldom bother to shed even crocodile tears when Jews are blown to pieces by suicide bombers, or rockets are fired indiscriminately into their homes; but become tremendously excited when the news breaks that some Israeli retaliation may have gone wrong.

It took several months to clarify what had happened at Jenin -- a staged massacre. It will take several months before something like the true story emerges, from Qana. By which time no one will be listening. (The ideologues will continue citing the original lies, regardless.) And yet in both these cases -- Jenin and Qana -- indications of fakery were visible from the beginning.

The Israelis quickly released real-time aerial reconnaissance footage to show the Hezbollah firing rockets from between houses in Qana; then pulling the launchers immediately afterwards into civilian buildings. The Israeli military logged three air strikes around Qana in the course of the evening in question, including one next to the houses that were destroyed. So while it was possible the Israelis had dropped the bombs that killed 54 people -- coincidentally all women and children -- it was, at the worst, unintended "collateral damage" near a valid military target.

The Israelis had extensively leafleted Qana for more than a week before the air strikes, telling civilians to evacuate, and warning just what would happen. Over the same period, Hezbollah pumped 150 Katyusha rockets into northern Israel from in and around this village. Hezbollah are notorious for refusing to allow civilians to evacuate (as U.N. observers have attested), and even preventing their flight at gunpoint. The argument that people "could not get out because the Israelis had wrecked the infrastructure" is rubbish. Once invited by Hezbollah, journalists got into the village quickly, all the way from Beirut. It follows that Hezbollah bears not some, but all of the moral responsibility for civilian deaths at Qana.

But we are still assuming the Israeli air strikes collapsed the houses. That theory begins to crumble, itself, when you look at the times logged for the Israeli air strikes. The houses were first reported to have been destroyed more than seven hours after the air strike next to them (the other strikes were about half a kilometre away). And even if they collapsed by delayed effect, why were women and children allowed to spend the night in a building on the point of collapsing?

Now look at the media pictures. Immediately you see several fishy things. For one, bodies displayed to media are removed, successively, from a single neat hole in the ruins. There is no evidence of a rescue mission having been mounted, or of a continuing search for bodies elsewhere under the rubble. The battered bodies do not resemble those which are seen after most real explosions and building collapses: their wounds do not look recent. All the blood and gore seems to be on just one body.

Moreover, as bloggers such as "Eureferendum" have demonstrated, by juxtaposing press photos from various newspapers, the men showing off the bodies -- and identified in captions as "Lebanese rescue workers" -- are the same as had been present at previous alleged atrocities. They are obviously not rescue workers, but Hezbollah propaganda agents.

The way they are handling and displaying the bodies is entirely inconsistent with rescue work. For instance, they hold up a dead child's head for the cameras; they point to a pacifier still strung around his neck. But notice: the child's body is covered in plaster dust, but the pacifier is clean. Such evidence of staging is glaring, everywhere.

Obvious questions: Did all or any of the victims die at this site? Was the event staged to produce exactly the effect on
"world opinion" that was achieved? And in a symbolic location, last used to a similar purpose in 1996?

I do not see how full-time journalists, specializing in the Middle East, can excuse themselves for not asking such questions immediately. I do not see why they cannot spot with their own eyes, what bloggers can spot in their photographs and reporting, thousands of miles away.

We know all about Hezbollah. It is for the journalists now to explain what they were doing, playing the clowns in an Hezbollah circus.

*

Update: Since this was written, I see the Lebanese Red Cross has reported the number of bodies at the site was 28, not the 54 or 57 that our press and TV took on faith from Hezbollah. And, persons presented as survivors adjusted the time of the incident to coincide better with the proximate air strike the Israelis logged. I have no idea what actually happened. But in the absence of a credible investigation, nobody else has, either; and the dramatic media presentation of the story "as told by Hezbollah" must be assigned to the annals of anti-Israeli propaganda, not journalism.

David Warren

Ottawa Citizen

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:04 AM

Biff Rose speaks the truth

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,josh
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

I think the above is a bit of wishful thinking!

Across the world people are heartily sick of the Israeli attacks on civilians...and their homes,cars ,apartment blocks,schools ,bridges and civic buildings.

We have seen quite a few attempts by Zionist apologists to rewrite the narrative of the atrocities the Israeli military has committed and it still doesnt wash the blood off the hands of the uniforned killers. For example, after an Israeli warship had blown up a Palestinian family on Gaza beach a month ago, the Zionists rushed into print to deny responsibility despite the warship pounding away off shore. It didnt wash!!
Never again!
josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 01:03 PM

josh, old chum,

It was determined that that family on the beach was killed by a Palestinian rocket that msfired, not an Israeli shell.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 02:53 PM

Back in the Spanish Civil War when there was a lot of outcry about the bombing of Guernica Franco's PR people claimed that the desctruction had in fact been caused by the Republicans as a propaganda stunt.
.........................

Thanks for the links bearded bruce - I've been having a look at them and also at this Encylopedia Britannica one - Hezbollah: Information from Answers" So there have been instances of Hezbollah rockets into Israel as recently as last November. As I said, I was surprised not to have come across details of these when I looked for them.

However my feeling that Israel's escalation has been counterproductive is still there - the number of rockets landing on Israel and the number of Israeli civilians already killed since July 13th appears to have been far higher than the cumulative number over a period of many years.

I think everyone must be grateful that the British Government of the day did not respond in this way to a comparable or greater level of sustained IRA violence, with a massive attack on the terrotory ofthe Irish Republic. (Of course one factor militating against that was a rather different attitude taken by the White House - I think Mrs Thatcher could well have been capable of thinking in these terms.)
..................

"That depends on a different argument, namely whether Hezbollah are freedom fighters or terrorists."

It seems to me that the "are they freedom fighters or terrorists?" way of looking at these things is not too herlpful. Terrorism is about the methods adopted by people, not about the objectives of the people concerned or their political status and so forth.

When people engaged in a conflict target civilians, they are engaged in terrorist activities, regardless of whether they are members of Hezbollah or the IRA or the IDF or Merag or the SAS or whatever. Clearly some of the activities carried out by all these organisations fall within that definition, while some do not.

It would be technically correct in a senses therefore to term all of them "terrorists" - but I think it might be better to reserve that term for organisations whose whole ethos and methodology involves terrorist activities, in which category Al Qaeda would be a primary example.

Making this distinction was a key factor in the peace process in Northern Ireland, and in finding ways of resolving a number of other conflicts.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:00 PM

"In January 2005, Hezbollah planted five camouflaged "improvised explosive devices" (IEDs), inches on the Israeli side of the border near Zarit, 15 mountainous miles inland from the Mediterranean coast. The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) detected these IEDs and, following procedure, notified UNIFIL. A French UNIFIL engineer duly certified that the devices were indeed IEDs, then "requested" that Hezbollah remove them. Hezbollah, not denying it had planted them, flatly refused, stating that since the mines were (just barely) inside the "Zionist" border, it was up to the "Zionists" to remove them. So the IDF sent in a large armored bulldozer to carry the mines off for disposal. This task required making a sharp 90-degree right turn from an Israeli road onto the narrow border trail where the IEDs were located. Making this sharp right turn, the left front corner of the bulldozer inevitably occupied, for a couple of seconds, about a meter of land on the Lebanese side. During those seconds a Hezbollah fighter directed an anti-tank missile at the narrow, unarmored windshield of the bulldozer. The pinpoint strike, which Israeli sources stated required extraordinary training and skill, killed the bulldozer's driver, Sgt. Maj. Jan Rotzanski, a 21-year-old Russian immigrant from Herzliya."



"Since Israel's withdrawl from Lebanon in 2000, and until the conflict arising in July 2006, Hezbollah has used the period of quiet to secretly arm itself with Syrian and Iranian missiles, which it claims number over 10,000. Placing them, according to many reports (including British Foreign Office Minister for the Middle East Dr. Kim Howells in an interview on CNN July 22 2006), in civilian locations, including family homes, crowded residential neighborhoods and mosques."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

I only looked at 2004 and 2005- the 2006 references have too many post july dates to pick them out easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:08 PM

"Since Israeli forces left Southern Lebanon, Hezbollah has provided military defense of the area acting as the area's army. Despite no official declaration, the stated policy of the Lebanese Government has supported Hezbollah as the army of South Lebanon.[12] Fouad Siniora said that "the continued presence of Israeli occupation of Lebanese lands in the Chebaa Farms region is what contributes to the presence of Hezbollah weapons. The international community must help us in (getting) an Israeli withdrawal from Chebaa Farms so we can solve the problem of Hezbollah's arms." [11] The United Nations considers the Shebaa Farms to be Syrian territory, not Lebanese and has stated that Israel has withdrawn from all Lebanese territory.

Clashes between Hezbollah and Israeli forces continued, albeit at a relatively low level, in the years following 2000."





*********************************************************************
"the stated policy of the Lebanese Government has supported Hezbollah as the army of South Lebanon."
*********************************************************************

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:11 PM

"Hezbollah abducted three Israel Defense Forces soldiers during an October 2000 attack in Shebaa Farms, and sought to obtain the release of 14 Lebanese prisoners, some of whom had been held since 1978. On January 25, 2004, Hezbollah successfully negotiated an exchange of prisoners Israel, through German mediators. The prisoner swap was carried out on January 29: 30 Lebanese and Arab prisoners, the remains of 60 Lebanese militants and civilians, 420 Palestinian prisoners, and maps showing Israeli mines in South Lebanon were exchanged for an Israeli businessman and army reserve colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum kidnapped in 2001 and the remains of the three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers mentioned above, who were killed either during the Hezbollah operation, or in its immediate aftermath."


So, Hezbollah has determined that 610 Arabs are equal to 5 Israelis....

Over 100 to one- so ANY claims of greater Lebonese deaths is pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

All I've seen throughout this thread doesn't change the fact that for Israel it's a war over its existence.

For the Arabs it's a war of aggression to conquer and eliminate Israel.

Everything else is ways and means.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM

This claim that for Israel its a war of existence is so much rot.The aggression comes from Israel aided and abetted by the world's number one Imperial power..... the USA.
Israel is there in the Middle East as a guard dog, for the benefit of US capitalism although it does have its own agendsa too.

It is there to dominate much of the arab world to help the USA maintain control of the region's oil supplies and to aid America's geo strategic presence in that part of the world.

The talk about Israel's very existence is bull! It is one of the most powerful countries in the world and is fully backed by the wworld's most dominant and aggressive military state.That is one lethal combination.

The USA which has been in the news talking about ceasefires and security is actually supplying monster bombs for use against civilians in the Lebanon and has supplied much of the weaponry used by Israel against the people of Gaza.

The USA rightly is seen by many in the Middle East as a country ruled by a bunch of racist,hypocritical,murdering thugs-who think nothing of unleashing sectarian murder in Iraq and have no qualms about something similar happening in the Lebanon. Over 100000 have ben killed in Iraq since its invasion and Bush should be in the dock for that gigantic crime.

Israel and the Neocons of the White House have acted like the mafiosa wiping out thousands so that the oil and other US Imperial interests can be maintained for a little longer.

Far from being a war for existence the Israeli are intent on expanding up to the Litani river in southern Lebanon and there are many in Israel who want to forcibly expel the Palestinians right out of Israel and the West Bank..................but the stumbling block is Hizbollah and Hamas.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:12 PM

Rather the same way the Indian Wars were wars of survival for a United States threatened with destruction by the original inhabitants...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:18 PM

I really don't think the USA was threatened with destruction by the native Americans.

Read Dee Brown's heartrending account of the ethnic cleansing of the native Americans [Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee ] to find out how the vast majority of the native American tribes were cleared from the east of America by about 1830.What happened to those people??

The Israeli zionists would like the same solution for their Palestinian problem which is why the Palestinians need world wide support.

By the way ,how inapprpriate for the US military to name one of its attack helicopters after the "apaches" who were implacable enemies of US military in the south-west of America in the 19th century.
james

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:28 PM

Yes, James, you don't seem to do irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

1) "This claim that for Israel its a war of existence is so much rot."

Calling a sheep a dog will not make it bark.


2) "The end does not justify the means."

Again, tell THAT to Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

Read Dee Brown's heartrending account of the ethnic cleansing of the native Americans [Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee ] to find out how the vast majority of the native American tribes were cleared from the east of America by about 1830.What happened to those people??

The Israeli zionists would like the same solution for their Palestinian problem which is why the Palestinians need world wide support.

I have read "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" I thought it was a good thing that the Jews, the Indians of the story, who were ethnically cleansed from their ancestral lands for some time, were able to return to their homeland the way the Indians have not. It was a damn shame that the so-called Palestinians, who were the settlers who came after the Jews, could not learn to live in peace with the homecomers, necessitating the UN partition plan which was not honored by the Arabs, and the wars to follow, but unlike Wounded Knee, the 'Indians' of the tale have been able to defend themselves against the aggressers.

Think what a little peace could have done. What a little peace could yet do.

Get Hezbollah out of Lebanon.

Lebanon for the Lebanese! Disarm the terrorists!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM

"[t]he heroic fghters of the resistance"

The heroic fighters of the resistance are scum. There is nothing heroic about people who hide amongst the civilian population and fire rockets at civilian centres.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

There is in fact a good case for arguing that the Palestinians (and the Lebanese) are in fact largely descended from those Jews who managed to stay on in the Holy Land in the First Century AD. Though that isn't too important. Our right to call a place home doesn't depend on what may or may not have happened 2000 years ago, or on our genetic make-up. A lot more relevant is stuff like where we grew up and where our parents and grandparents and their parents and grandparents lived and died.

Disarm the terrorists, yes indeed. All the terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 09:06 PM

I agree with that.

Incidentally, I agree that the death of children is deplorable, regardless whether those deaths are brought about by Israelis, Hamas or Hezbollah. However, while people are making much of the numbers of children who have been killed in this war, those same people might note that Lebanon's demographics show that approximately 30% of its people are under the age of 16. Statistically, the numbers--while terrible to see--are simply what one would expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,james
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 01:27 AM

To Robomatic
So you think that the Palestinians were the "settlers "who came after the Jews and therefore it was right for them to lose their homes.

Quite frankly that is a bizarre notion!! If you came up with a similar idea in any other part of the world people would question your mental health.

The Palestinians are the descendents of a people who have lived in the Holy Land for at least 2000 years and of course in that time there have been many others who have come to that land to add to the genetic make up of the people including French, Turks and Greeks .

Abram Leon a Jewish socialist who died in Auschwitz stated that even in Roman and biblical times there were more Jewish people living outside the Holy Land than inside. For example he said that there were a million or so in the Egyptian city of Alexandria.

It is very noticeable that many of the Israelis who have settled in Israel are of European descent whereas the Palestinians they have expelled are of semitic origin.Bizarre but tragic that extremist Zionists ever managed to get their hands on power and were able to apply their race hate ideas to the real world.

What started as a separist view of Jews in the world has descended into apartheid walls, the stealing of a homeland and the mass murder of innocent children.
james

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Zac
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:09 AM

Extremist Zionist groups are likely to "enter" the Holy Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem either today or in the next few days and senior muslim clerics believe they intend to trash it.

The clerics have been to the Israeli High Court to try to exclude the Zionists from entering what is the third Holiest Islamic shrine in the world but were turned down .The decision gives the Zionists the green light for the Zionists to invade and it is likely to cause yet more very serious disturbances between muslims and Zionists.
zac

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,neil
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:40 AM

It was reported today on the BBC website that 35 children have been killed this past month in Israeli attacks on Gaza city. This number was totalled by UN officials in Gaza.
This is murder of the innocents...a seven year old was killed by tank fire this morning.
neil

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:14 AM

" A lot more relevant is stuff like where we grew up and where our parents and grandparents and their parents and grandparents lived and died."


So, you will allow that those Israelis whose families have been in Israel for three generations are entitled to the land, and should NOT be removed by the Arabs?

Better let Hamas know- they still need to change their charter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM

The Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed from the land of their birth should have the right of return in the same way that Jewish people across the world have the right of return.

Until they and their children and grandchildren get this right to return there is likely to be no peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis.This is at the heart of the problems in the region.....the expulsion of the indiginous population by force and terror.
jim

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:21 AM

"in the same way that Jewish people across the world have the right of return"


So, with 640,000 Palestinians who fled Israel (and were kept in camps by the Arabs), and 820,000 Jews who were driven out of Arab nations ( and taken in by Israel) , the Arabs owe Israel an addiotional 28% of the land... So Israle should keep the West bank, to make things fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM

Zac-You decry the the ability of 'Zionists' to be able to enter the al-Aqsa mosque. The mosque is located on the Temple Mount, the site of the ancient Jewish Temples. From 1948 - 1967 Jews were not permitted by the Jordanians (then in control of Jerusalem) from visiting that place.   Israel since controling the area has not so kept out Muslims.
That Zionists plan to trash the mosque is your projection, perhaps because Muslim groups have destroyed, for instance, Abraham's Tomb, and the Buddhist statues over which they had control. I will stand by you, Zac, if Israelis-or any Jews-willfully destroy any part of the mosque.   I will also be very disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,jim
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:38 AM

!
The Buddhist statues you mentioned are three thousand miles away in Afghanistan.The last time I checked my atlas that is a long way from Palestine.

I dont think the Zionists who intend to "visit" the Al Asqa mosque will be paying a courtesy call......they will be there to cause maximum trouble just as Ariel Sharon did when he exercised his right with a thousand bodyguards a few years ago sparking the second intifada and hundreds of deaths.

And lastly please do not dump the Taliban onto the people of Palestine.They have enough problems of their own.

Actually the Taliban,and their predecessors, had far more to do with the American CIA than ever they had with the Palestinians..at least the Palestinians never sold any stinger ground to air missiles to Afghanistan!
jim

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,kirk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 12:47 PM

FILM OFF
The organisers of the Edinburgh International Film Festival has cancelled the Israeli Embassy's sponsorship of the festival and has returned a cheque that would have helped fund the event.

The cancellation occured after a public outcry following the bombing of the Lebanon and the killing of children at Qana.

The news was welcomed by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the Stop The War Coalition in Scotland.

One of the organisers of the festival spoke about how he ahd almost had his teeth knocked out by the butt of a thuggish Israeli soldier's rifle on the West Bank.
kirk

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:34 PM

An excellent article by Tom Gross about the media coverage of this war.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:43 PM

A good friend of mine was attacked by Palestinians. His child of three months old was cut to pieces and he was shot in the stomach then left to die. His wife disappeared. This was caused by Hamas.

The above is not true. I just wanted to throw in some fiction, much like zac, tim, kirk, josh, and the other arseholes whose sole purpose is to nail Jews for every wrong that's ever happened in the Middle East.

Dear guys: piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

Informative piece there C.Ham, it reveals where the so called "guests" have been getting their biased information, they too are peddling propaganda for Hezbollah - shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:14 PM

To Peace
I think you are losing the plot .....
this accusation of anti semitism is really the last refuge of the arrogant zionist.
There are many Jewish people across the world who are appalled at what the Zionists have done in the Middle East and some of the most trenchant critics of Israel are Jewish....
josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:18 PM

To Josh:

Eat shit you anti-Semitic sonuvabitch.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

BTW, Josh:

Your friends in Hezbollah killed some kids in Israel today when they fired over 100 rockets into a civilian area. However, the kids were just Jews, so no doubt that doesn't bother you. PFO.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

"There are many Jewish people across the world who are appalled at what the Zionists have done in the Middle East and some of the most trenchant critics of Israel are Jewish...."

There are many, many more Jewish, Muslim, Christian etc. across the world who are appalled by the suicide bombers and Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists who are targeting and killing The Israli people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:25 PM

"3rd August 2006, 14:00 WST

JERUSALEM

Israel says it captured high-ranking Hizbollah members and killed at least 10 fighters in a midnight commando raid deep in Lebanon yesterday, as up to 10,000 troops stormed across the border in the south.

While Hizbollah said the five men taken from the Hizbollah-run hospital in the eastern town of Baalbek were civilians, Israel said they included commanders."

Makes one wonder what Hezbollah commanders were doing in a 'civilian hospital', huh? HUH? Oh, joooooooooooooooooooooooossssssssh, HUH?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 05:29 PM

BTW, Josh. Are you friends with the drunk who posts as GUEST,Abe? He fights lots like your Hezbollah friends. Takes cheap shots and then runs back to his crowd. If you see him around some evening when you're looking for 'Zionists' to beat up, tell him that if I ever do get to England I shall make it a priority to meet him. He implied he'd like to 'beat me up', and I think it only fair that he find out just how difficult that might be to do.

Warmest personal regards, arsehole.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,JOSH..to peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:06 PM

As I said earlier you seem to have lost the plot.....The current carnage in the Lebanon and Israel could have been avoided by a prisoner swap...remember them ...the invasion supposedly statrted over them.
regards
josh
ps if you do get to meet Abe ...
remember if you come to blows ,dont blow up the apartment blocks,hospitals ,houses and bridges....and for good sake leave the lighthouse intact!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:07 PM

"Israeli jets dropped leaflets over southern Beirut late in the day warning residents to evacuate three Shiite neighbourhoods, a possible prelude to even more attacks."

That is from news (Ireland online),

Israeli forces fight with Hezbollah guerrillas
03/08/2006 - 18:53:34

They have been warned. Let's hope they heed the warning. I understand that Hezbollah doesn't give warnings. The Israelis do.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:11 PM

"I thought hopitals were meant to be places exempt from being targetted from military action?
garry"

You thought right. However, it seems that Hezbollah had some of its crew in there seeking safety amongst civilians. That is NOT cricket, old chap. It then makes the hospital a place where combat operations are being prepared. And you know what thta means, don't you? Likely not, so allow me to explain. It means that it is a hospital until Hezbollah says it's not a hospital. It was just another Hezbollah base. You see, those cowardly bastards hide amongst the civilian population and do not care who is hurt. Dead non-combatants become good propaganda tools for them. These are the people you support.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:14 PM

"ps if you do get to meet Abe ...
remember if you come to blows"

Oh, Josh. Relax. I would never fight with a drunk, and since he seldom seems to be in any other condition, rest assured that it would never come to that.

Interesting that you think there is a plot to war. If there is it is two-fold.

1) Hezbollah attacked Israel.

2) Israel is going to destroy Hezbollah.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:19 PM

"Meanwhile, in a report on the devastating Israeli attack on Sunday on the village of Qana, New York-based Human Rights Watch said its re-examination of showed 28 people had died, half the number initially reported by Lebanese organisations. Thirteen were still missing.

Officials in the Lebanese Red Cross and Civil Defence Corps reached the same conclusion – that only 28 people died. George Kitane, head of Lebanese Red Cross paramedics, said 19 children were among the dead."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

Hezbollah reports becoming less and less believable

By Yoav Stern

If Hezbollah-run media are to be believed, then 35 Israel Defense Forces soldiers were killed or wounded in Aita Shaab, militants downed an Israeli helicopter and destroyed a house in which IDF soldiers were hiding, and IDF troops are always hit in the back because they are running away.

All these statements are baseless because - despite the impression Hezbollah has made for straight talk - credibility is not its strong suit.

Hezbollah's reports have become less and less believable in recent days. On Monday, Al-Manar television - the central component of Hezbollah's well-oiled media empire - reported that the organization had destroyed an Israeli ship off the coast of Tyre, which had some 50 sailors aboard - a charge the IDF dismissed completely.

It's not clear what incident, if any, the report was referring to, and the Arab world has been asking questions. Al-Arabiya television asked Mahmoud Kamati, a member of the Hezbollah political bureau, about the Hezbollah claim and he repeated that an Israeli ship had been hit, but said no pictures were broadcast because visibility was poor.

Hezbollah's leader, Hassan Nasrallah, is a superb tool for the propaganda machine. Nasrallah, 46, is one of the most impressive speakers in the entire Middle East. He is a virtuoso of the Arabic language, although he doesn't forget to spice his comments with a few words in the Lebanese dialect. It nearly always seems as though he is speaking about the most important matters in an offhand way, but he is really getting his listeners to follow his thought process.

"I sometimes take the tape of his comments and watch it, for pleasure," said a Haifa resident who has been forced to go down to the nearest bomb shelter every few hours over the last few weeks. "He is simply an excellent speaker."

Hezbollah's media empire - which includes the Al-Nur radio station and the Web site moqawama.net - has been an inseparable part of the psychological war. Sometimes, Hezbollah also transmits its messages through other media, such as the Iranian television station Al-Alam. The crown jewel of the empire, Al-Manar, is broadcast in Lebanon and throughout the Arab world, by satellite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:42 PM

"While the slanted comments and interviews are bad enough, the degree of pictorial distortion is even worse. From the way many TV stations worldwide are portraying it, you would think Beirut has begun to resemble Dresden and Hamburg in the aftermath of Second World War air raids. International television channels have used the same footage of Beirut over and over, showing the destruction of a few individual buildings in a manner which suggests half the city has been razed.

A careful look at aerial satellite photos of the areas targeted by Israel in Beirut shows that certain specific buildings housing Hezbollah command centres in the city's southern suburbs have been singled out. Most of the rest of Beirut, apart from strategic sites such as airport runways used to ferry Hezbollah weapons in and out of Lebanon, has been left pretty much untouched.

From the distorted imagery, selective witness accounts, and almost round-the-clock emphasis on casualties, you would be forgiven for thinking that the level of death and destruction in Lebanon is on par with that in Darfur, where Arab militias are slaughtering hundreds of thousands of non-Arabs, or with the 2004 tsunami that killed half a million in Southeast Asia."


That is from the article linked to by C Ham. I post that clip because I know none of the Hezbollites will read the actual article. (I suspect that multi-syllabic words may be beyond those who've had more than their glass today--and that is most of 'em.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM

Hezbollah's media empire - which includes the Al-Nur radio station and the Web site moqawama.net - has been an inseparable part of the psychological war. Sometimes, Hezbollah also transmits its messages through other media, such as the Iranian television station Al-Alam. The crown jewel of the empire, Al-Manar, is broadcast in Lebanon and throughout the Arab world, by satellite.

And as documented in the article I linked to earlier, the reports coming out of Lebanon on many mainstream media -- CNN, BBC, NBC, etc. -- is being controlled by Hezbollah press officers. In short, that means that what you see on CNN's reports out of Lebanon is what Hezbollah wants you to see. The reporters admit as much (although you won't see those caveats on the air).

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:13 PM

I think it's pretty well obvious what's going on with the propaganda war to everyone except the few dupes who are posting here as "guests".

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:19 PM

"Extremist Zionist groups are likely to "enter" the Holy Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem either today or in the next few days and senior muslim clerics believe they intend to trash it."

To balance that erudite and insightful prognostication (read, flat-ass guess), I shall posit the following:

"Extremist Hezbollah groups (that's ALL of them) are likely to enter a room filled with Israeli children and blow them up, just to make a political point. And extremist Hezbollah groupies on this thread are likely to consume too much beer this evening and froth at the mouth"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Hey, Josh, where's ifor? He didn't make much more sense than you do, but it would be a change from your claptrap. C'mon, lad, gie us a break. Switch personas.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:34 PM

First topic - the article

I think you will find that Gross, the author of the article cited above as containing some alleged truth, is Jewish. My evidence for this is limited to the name. He was the former Jerusalem correspondent for the Telegraph - a paper so right wing as to vie with the Mail, and perhaps to be acceptable reading for some Americans here.

The article contains obvious distortions in some places to the extent that I would not accept what it says as fact without independent (yes independent) corroboration.

The BBC has a reputation built up over about 80 years as the world's premier factual reportage. I am inclined to rely on that.

Second topic: I quote

"1) Hezbollah attacked Israel.

2) Israel is going to destroy Hezbollah."

Israel is destroying the Lebanon and killing the Lebanese, whether or not they are Hezbollah. That is not justifiable. It may be expedient, but it is wrong.

Third topic

Hezbollah use propaganda. Well surprise surprise. I suppose Israel doesn't?



Two issues are being muddled up.

1. Who is entitled to the disputed land? Israel or the Palestinians. I am undecided but I do not see a claim to have lived there 2,000 years ago as being decisive.

2. Is Israel entitled to decimate the Lebanese because of the acts of Hezbollah? THe answer is plain. It is "No".




Don't forget I came to this present round of killings pro-Israel. Now I ain't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:35 PM

"Don't forget I came to this present round of killings pro-Israel. Now I ain't."

With that and a buck you can ride the bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

Oh, yes. I suppose that the Hezbollah members who show the press around are not biased in any way? Jaysus, grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:42 PM

"2. Is Israel entitled to decimate the Lebanese because of the acts of Hezbollah?"

Israel is not decimating the Lebanese, it is decimating Hezbollah whose tactics are causing the deaths of innocent Lebanese. Take it up with Hezbollah maybe they will listen to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 07:50 PM

And while we're on the topic of propaganda, Cana: The initial reporting was all over the place on that. Good ol' dependable Hezbollah media spin, huh? But hey, let's not talk about that. Let's go back to a writer whom you assume to be Jewish because of his name, and who, simply beCAUSE he is Jewish is presenting what you presume to be a biased report. Yep. Let's hear more of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM

Richard:

Who you are 'pro-' and who you are 'anti-' is less relevant than your argument. (You clearly initiated the thread as 'anti-' which is your privilege, natch)

If Lebanon (is that a British thing, to call it 'the Lebanon'?) can't manage their own borders in order to keep organized terrorists with massive stockpiles of weapons from attacking a neighbor, or if they tacitly approve of such attacks, who can determine. Israeli troops have been attacked or provoked at regular intervals since the pullout, and this time people were killed and kidnapped. I think what Israel did and is doing is absolutely necessary, and that includes the scale of response.

The massive scale of Hezbollah armaments and ability to penetrate Israeli territory with thousands of medium range rockets may not be an issue for you since you seem to concentrate on Israeli bombing raids. At the very least to a fair-minded person I would expect both matters to be at issue. Possibly you would like the death toll to be more equal. Several 'fair-minded' postings have intimated that. With that kind of thinking wouldn't it have been fairer if during WWII Germany had bombed London to the extent that England bombed Dresden?

So, Richard Bridge, I question your logic, and don't particularly care what 'side' you be on. You seem to take only a superficial interest in the underlying issues as opposed to the vast propaganda being generated and have not been a big participant in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:08 PM

An article reprinted in today's Guardian from the Israeli paper Ha'aretz seems to me worth reading, and provides a interesting analysis of how the current situation appears to an Israeli who supported the initial military response to the precipitating incident on July 12th - How Israel's gung-ho leaders turned victory into calamity

"There was one moment during the war when we had the upper hand. It was the moment when Israel had succeeded in striking Hizbullah with strong and surprising force, Haifa was peaceful and the number of casualties was small. That was the right moment to stop the war, declare victory and move on to the diplomatic track.

This opportunity came when the G8 convened in St Petersburg on July 14, two days after the fighting broke out. The G8 formulated a four-point plan, and nothing could have been better for Israel...

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:16 PM

There is more than enough truth in the article. Here is another quotation from the first one:

"This does not mean that if Israel had adopted the G8 proposal, the problem of Hizbullah would have been resolved. That would not have happened. That can only be resolved at the diplomatic level, with an Israeli-Syrian-Lebanese agreement."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:21 PM

And from the second link (which is the same article):

"Now, after the tragic events in Qana that killed some 60 civilians, even Israel's greatest ally has changed direction and says it wants a speedy ceasefire. Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has declared that Hizbullah's victory is the victory of the entire Lebanese people and that if Israel remains in south Lebanon, he will turn the Lebanese army against it. Siniora even spoke about a ceasefire without any agreement."

That figure is wrong. I think it has been down-graded to about 38 deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:26 PM

"An article reprinted in today's Guardian from the Israeli paper Ha'aretz seems to me worth reading,"

Many have grown accustomed to left-wing papers such as Britain's Guardian allowing their Mideast coverage to spill over into something akin to anti-Semitism. For example, last month a cartoon by the Guardian's Martin Rowson depicted Stars of David being used as knuckle dusters on a bloody fist.

From C.Ham's link.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:29 PM

I think you will find that Gross, the author of the article cited above as containing some alleged truth, is Jewish. My evidence for this is limited to the name.

But, Richard Bridge, with that statement you have painted yourself as an ugly anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

Guest,jim--I did not say Palestineans destroyed Buddhist statues and I did not say those statues were in the Levant. I used them as an example of how some Islamic groups respect and protect other peoples shrines and holy places...not! And you know, or ought to have known, that that was the gist of that posting. There are others here, too, who post here who like to twist words, but you aren't getting away with it.

Peace--Please stop your screeds against some the anti-Israel posters. We make much stronger arguments when present our point of view, and discredit theirs with facts they ignore.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:59 PM

Ultimately, it is Arabs and Muslims who will determine how the overall 'world' situation turns out. I have faith that in the end things will turn out well, after trying every other method. I just hope most of us survive to that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,josh
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:04 AM

to robomatic
"I just hope most of us survive to that time!"

You sound a bit angst ridden robomatic.But while you are getting a bit maudlin no doubt in a comfortable and safe home there are now almost a million Lebanese who have been "displaced" by Israeli bombing and have experienced terrible events while trying to find a fragile safety...

and of course, despite some of the postings to the contrary, the Lebanon is still a very dangerous land for civilians who are being bombed in Beirut and Baalbek and other towns and villages.

Hezbollah has offered to stop firing its rockets into Israel as long as Israel stops bombing Beirut but all the early morning reports I have read show that the air attack will continue and more civilians and children will be slaughtered.
josh

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:16 AM

BREAD NOT BOMBS!
There will be a huge anti war demonstration in central London tomorrow organised by The Stop The War Coalition and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.

Demonstrators will be bringing children's shoes with them to leave at Downing St to highlight the fact that children are dying in large numbers in the Lebanon and Gaza and to point the finger at Tony Blair who has allowed US military cargo planes bound for Israel with fresh bombs to stopover at British airports.Blair has also refused to call for an immediate ceasefire much to the disgust of his own party.
The marchers will be calling for
an immediate ceasefire and an end to the invasion of the Lebanon
Hands off Gaza
Humanitarian aid for all in need.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM

Tony Blair has been precisely right in his position.

I wonder if anyone is going to leave shoes for the dead Israelis.

Ultimately your one-sided appeal, as if all the casualties are only on one side will fall back on you. The anti-humanitarians in this story are the guys who started it, Hamas and Hezbollah, and their THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS blasting well into Israel. They have justified Israel's actions in Lebanon and until Hezbollah restores Lebanon to the Lebanese, there will be no peace.

I don't forget that neither of you one-sided ranters has granted that Israel has ANY borders worth respecting. You are supporting a situation with no other resolution than victory or defeat. Therefore when you discuss PEACE you are being hypocritical because you have no position that can possibly lead to peace by denying Israel the right to borders.

I can only conclude that every action taken on your side is an action of war under some guise.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Rachel
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:13 AM

A British Labour Party MP and 8 women from Birmingham have been refused entry into Israel and ordered out of the country.

Dr Lynne Jones a Birmingham MP together with Respect Party cllr Salma Yacoob and the othere women were in Israel to develop twinning links between Birmingham and Ram'allah a town on the occupied West Bank.

Money raised in Birmingham had been used in Ram'allah to develop a children's library and open a nursery and the British delegation had come to see progress and discuss what further help might be needed.
However, at Tel Aviv airport, the delegation was refused entry and told they would be arrested if they refused to leave.
rachel

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:14 AM

Ham, don't be stupid. Many names indicate origin.

Bobad, the argument you seek to make is no better than that of the killer of a hostage "Now see what you made me do". You still don't seem to see any difference between expediency and morality.

Robomatic, I have several times said that it may be legitimate for Israel to attack Hezbollah (as it was for the British Army to attack the IRA) but that of itself does not justify Israel slaughtering the Lebanese and destroying the Lebanon.

It is simply unsustainable (on the vast majority of reportage) to assert that the only people Israel are killing are Hezbollah. It is simply unsustainable (on the vast majority of reportage) to assert that all property being destroyed is that of Hezbollah.

Peace, learn to read. I gave three reasons for saying that further evidence was needed to accept Gross's assertions as fact. If he is Jewish, it is significant, for Israel is a Jewish country. His background as a writer for a very right-wing paper is significant. The obvious distortions in his article indicate an agenda.

I have not, in this thread, sought to defend Hezbollah. Don't pretend that I have. I started the thread to see if it was generally thought that the heavy handed Israeli actions in Gaza (and it got extended to the Lebanon) and their effect on non-Hamas and non-Hezbollah were justified. There seem to be three or four together from Canada (I think Ham is from Canada) and the USA who think so. Everyone else (or pretty much so) seems to think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:53 AM

Israel does not act or speak for every Jew excerpts follow..

I WRITE as a Jew and as a synagogue member. I write as one whose academic work continues to move through questions of Jewish identity and the legacy of the Holocaust. Yet, I write with a growing sense of shame. The source of the feeling is simple: Israel claims that it continues to act in my name. The Jewish community in Sydney and elsewhere insists on identifying themselves with Israeli actions. These acts are part of a tradition in which the state of Israel has set the measure for being Jewish. The proof of this is the perverse logic in which responses to the politics of Israel - a politics that manifests itself in the bulldozing of houses in Gaza and the bombing of civilians in Qana - take the form of attacks on synagogues, Jewish cultural centres and Jewish cemeteries. Each time Israel acts in a certain way, security measures around synagogues are doubled.

Why? The straightforward answer attests to the victory of those who have linked and continue to link being a Jew to Israel and thus to those who conflate Judaism and Zionism. The consequence of this is that a critique of Zionism or a disagreement over the policies of Israel are taken at best as a criticism of Jews and, at worst, as anti-Semitic. The evidence is clear. Attacks on synagogues in Seattle and Parramatta underscore the results of this. These attacks are the result of the politics of a nation state.

For a Jew, Israel is both the name of a state and the locus of ideals and actions. Israel, as a place in which the endless and complex negotiation with others takes place, is the Israel that exists within Judaism. This is the Israel evoked in the liturgy. The state of Israel needs to be judged in relation to the other Israel. There is a Judaic critique of Israel; one which once articulated would allow some Jews to undo the project that continues to identify the policies of a state with both a culture and a religion.

Until that undoing is accomplished Jewish community centres - religious or secular - will continue to be attacked. Israel, in its present manifestation, sustains anti-Semitism. And yet, it will be argued the Holocaust has made the state of Israel a necessity: a state was needed so that such events not happen again. State creation always displaces a people. And the results of that founding displacement should always be acknowledged, understood and in the end resolved. However what endures for many as an outrage is Israel hijacking the Holocaust for its political ends: the Holocaust is used to sustain a specific geo-political situation.

Understanding the Holocaust, tracing its impact upon how we think today, is a project that endures. Moreover, it is a project that resists easy summation. The idea that it can figure as an element of state policy is both an intellectual and ethical scandal. This needs to be said. Until Jews are prepared to articulate the need to sever the identification of Judaism and Israel, anti-Semitism will flourish. Until Jews are prepared to argue that the Holocaust and its legacy is not the province of a nation state, let alone a justification for Zionism, our responsibility in relation to the dead will continue to be betrayed. We should demand better of ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,tina
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:15 AM

I have just checked the details of tomorrow's anti war march in London on the Palestine Solidarity Campaign's website.It assembles at Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park at 12 midday before setting off for Downing St.
From the other reports I have read it looks like it will be very,very big.
tina

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Yarrow
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:46 AM

I have been following the arguments over Gaza,Israel ,Lebanon and the rest of the Middle East with some interest. I thought I would write in and reccomend two books which I found very informative when I read them last year.
The first one is a general account of the Middle East and is written by Robert Fisk called The Great War For Civilisation and the second book,also by Fisk is Pity the Nation about the first invasion of Lebanon.
Both books ring true!
yarrow

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:30 AM

Richard Bridge,

Whether or not Tom Gross is Jewish is not the issue. BTW, I know people named Cohen, Shapiro and Schwartz, common Jewish names, who are not Jewish.

You are an anti-Semite because you disqualify Gross, not because you can argue the points he makes, but because, he has a "Jewish name."

BTW, perhaps the most rabid anti-Israel academic in the U.S.A. is Norman Finkelstein. He too has a "Jewish name."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,walt
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:39 AM

I certainly wold not describe Norman Finkelstein as "rabid."
walt

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:03 AM

For heavens sake Ham, learn to read.

Gross has a name that is likely to be Jewish. If he is Jewish he is more likely rather than less to adopt the Israeli point of view. He worked for a rabid right-wing paper, the Telegraph. If you bother to read his article you will see several points of obvious assumption rather than logic.

Three reasons to doubt, and I doubted rather than disqualified.

Play the race card all you want. It doesn't wash.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:11 AM

Google Tom Gross.

Amongst other stuff you will find this on his own website: -

"Tom Gross has worked as a consultant for a variety of governmental and non-governmental organizations, including advising the UN on the political and social situation of the Roma. In addition, he has worked for the Jan Hus Educational Foundation (a Brno-based educational charity), for the Prague Tolerance Foundation's "Families After the Holocaust", as an International Media Consultant for Ben Gurion University in Israel, and as a consultant to the Jewish Museum of Prague"

My point I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:23 AM

For heaven's sake, Bridge, learn to read.

You are not debating any point that Gross makes, you are dismissing him because you perceive him to be Jewish. That makes you an anti-Semite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:30 AM

Published on Thursday, August 3, 2006 by the Inter Press Service
Human Rights Watch Accuses Israel of War Crimes
by Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - In systematically failing to distinguish between Hezbollah fighters and civilian population in its three-and-a-half-week-old military campaign in Lebanon, the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) have committed war crimes, according to a report released by Human Rights Watch Wednesday. The 50-page report, "Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon," detailed nearly two dozen cases of IDF attacks in which a total of 153 civilians, including 63 children, were killed in homes or motor vehicles.

In none of the cases did HRW researchers find evidence that there was a significant enough military objective to justify the attack, given the risks to civilian lives, while, in many cases, there was no identifiable military target. In still other cases cited in the report, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

Ham are you stupid, or just bigoted?


Read what I said, not what you wish I'd said.

One of the reasons (I gave three) for doubting what Gross says is that he is more likely to have a pro-Israel stance than not. I didn't judge him on the basis of race, but on the basis of three things. (1) the likelihood of bias in favour of Israel because he is Jewish (2) the likelihood of bias because of an association with a newspaper with extreme right-wing views (3) the appearance of bias in the piece you so admired.


If you haven't got a leg to stand on the race card will not help you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM

Mr. Bridge,

It is you who introduced the "race card" by disqualifying the arguements of a columnist on the sole basis that he might be Jewish.

That's it. I'm done with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Hezbollah statement
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:22 PM

"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore, our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no ceasefire and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated. We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore, we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

Richard Bridge,

So, do you then recognize the "the likelihood of bias in favour of Hezbollah " by the BBC, since they are being feed by Hezbollah PR hacks? If not, you have no ground to rule out Gross's comments.

Perhaps you could address the POINTS being brought up, rather than the person. THOSE can be discussed, debated, and even discarded IF shown false.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM

"Robertson is not the only foreign journalist to have misled viewers with selected footage from Beirut. NBC's Richard Engel, CBS's Elizabeth Palmer, and a host of European and other networks, were also taken around the damaged areas by Hezbollah minders. Palmer commented on her report that "Hezbollah is also determined that outsiders will only see what it wants them to see."

Palmer's honesty is helpful. But it doesn't prevent the damage being done by organizations such as the BBC, whose bias is obvious to those who know the facts. First, the BBC gave the impression that Israel had flattened the greater part of Beirut. Then to follow up its lopsided coverage, its Web site helpfully carried full details of the assembly points for an anti-Israel march due to take place in London, but did not give any details about a rally in support of Israel also held in London a short time later.

Indeed, the BBC's coverage of the present war has been so extraordinary that even staunch BBC supporters in London seem rather embarrassed -- in conversation, not on the air, unfortunately.

If the BBC were just a British problem, that would be one thing, but it is not. Thanks to British taxpayers, it is the world's biggest and most lavishly funded news organization. No other station broadcasts so extensively in dozens of languages, on TV, radio and online.

The BBC's radio service alone attracts over 163 million listeners. It pours forth its world view in almost every language of the Middle East: Pashto, Persian, Arabic and Turkish. (Needless to say, it declines to broadcast in Hebrew, even though it does broadcast in the languages of other small nations: Macedonian and Albanian, Azeri and Uzbek, Kinyarwanda and Kyrgyz, and so on.)

It is not just that the supposed crimes of Israel are completely overplayed, but the fact that this is a two-sided war (started, of course, by Hezbollah) is all but obscured. As a result, in spite of hundreds of hours of broadcast by dozens of BBC reporters and studio anchors, you wouldn't really know that hundreds of thousands of Israelis have been living in bomb shelters for weeks now, tired, afraid, but resilient; that a grandmother and her seven-year old grandson were killed by a Katyusha rocket during a Friday night Sabbath dinner; that several other Israeli children have died."




And Bridges says:"I think you will find that Gross, the author of the article cited above as containing some alleged truth, is Jewish. My evidence for this is limited to the name. He was the former Jerusalem correspondent for the Telegraph - a paper so right wing as to vie with the Mail, and perhaps to be acceptable reading for some Americans here.

The article contains obvious distortions in some places to the extent that I would not accept what it says as fact without independent (yes independent) corroboration.

The BBC has a reputation built up over about 80 years as the world's premier factual reportage. I am inclined to rely on that. "


I guess it is just a matter of the news you accept having the RIGHT bias.


Some of us look at both sides, and try to determine what actually is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:45 PM

Richard Bridge

"to see if it was generally thought that the heavy handed Israeli actions in Gaza (and it got extended to the Lebanon) and their effect on non-Hamas and non-Hezbollah were justified. There seem to be three or four together from Canada (I think Ham is from Canada) and the USA who think so. Everyone else (or pretty much so) seems to think not. "

Point one.

SOme of us do not consider that the Israeli response is heavy-handed- In fact, the IDF has gone out of its way to warn people before attacking- UNLIKE HEZBOLLAH.

Point Two.

There seem to be two or three together, from the UK, Australia, and Canada who think it is not justified. Everyone else (or pretty much everyone but the mysterious number of guests) seems to think that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:51 PM

Hey Freda:

This is a section from Human Rights Watch report also:

"While not the focus of this report, Human Rights Watch has separately and simultaneously documented violations of international humanitarian law by Hezbollah, including a pattern of attacks that amount to war crimes. Between July 12, when Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight, and July 27, the group launched a reported 1,300 rockets into predominantly civilian areas in Israel, killing 18 civilians and wounding more than 300. Without guidance systems for accurate targeting, the rockets are inherently indiscriminate when directed toward civilian areas, especially cities, and thus are serious violations of the requirement of international humanitarian law that attackers distinguish at all times between combatants and civilians. Some of these rockets, Human Rights Watch found, are packed with thousands of metal ball-bearings, which spray more than 100 meters from the blast and compound the harm to civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

Lord have mercy.

I'm interested to see if anyone read the article I posted at 04 Aug 06 - 04:53 AM - Israel does not act or speak for every Jew - and your comments on that article.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

Robomatic, am I to infer that Freda Underhill is selectively quoting from documents to supported her bias? Surely not! That would be, well, underhanded.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:06 PM

Freda, you are right...Israel does not speak for every Jew, the Vatican does not speak for every Catholic, England doesn't speak for every Anglican, Saudi Arabia does not speak for every Muslim, ad infinitum; so your point is...?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:22 PM

"As of Friday the Associated Press count showed at least 559 Lebanese have been killed, including 482 civilians confirmed dead by the Health Ministry, 27 Lebanese soldiers and at least 50 Hezbollah guerrillas."

FYI

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

I am sick of morons.

Go and read Gross's CV. It makes it entirely clear who he is likely to be supporting. I was right. Have the honesty to admit it.

If Hezbollah has committed warcrimes it does not justify warcrimes AGAINST THE LEBANON. What part of that is too hard for you to understand? In fact it would not justify war crimes against Hezbollah but that is more subtle.

The Israel warnings are not a sufficent defence. The old, the injured, the very young, those buried in cellars under collapsed buildings - they cannot flee. The very roads they need to use to flee have been destoyed byIsraeli attacks. And why should the innocent flee?

Look, try a simple example. A fugitive kidnaps me. He uses me as a human shield. He holds me in front of him. A policeman tries to shoot him and shoots (and kills) me in stead. That is murder (in English law) for the policeman must essentially and objectively have considered the risk of killing me or doing grievous bodliy harm to me and at best then disregarded it.

Have you got it yet?

Juicy Brucie, have you learned to count yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

Dear Richard,

Don't let your view of yourself inflate your head. I have no idea what you mean by your last remark, nor will I ponder it past this post. You seem to be a smug ego looking for a place to roost. However, none of your insights seem to be doing anything other than make you look like the dolt you are. So, in a word, and since I obviously can't count, piss off!

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

"And why should the innocent flee?"

Uh, to escape being killed as the IDF goes after the Hezbollah terrorists who are using them as shields?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:32 PM

PS,

Richie Bridgie Poo,

When you want to get off the personal attacks and get back to Hezbollah, the folks who started the mess, please let me know. Until then, have a lovely day. Kiss kiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:04 PM

Freda Underhill is selectively quoting from documents to support her bias?

uh, I was quoting from the paper, John, which was reporting the findings.

I guess my point with that article is that Jews have been placed in a position where to criticise the Israeli govt is seen as deeply disloyal, anti-Semitic - my country, right or wrong. And the writer, a jewish Professor, is pointing out how wrong that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM

Thank you for your candor, Freda. So you were only quoting a source that apparently was selectively citing that document, but not the document itself.

From my perspective, the point you were trying to make is that because a Jew criticizes Israel your position is vindicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:25 PM

We hail you Richard Bridge. You are the one who knows the truth. You are the one who recognizes the media control exercised by the zionists.

Truth only gets through on a site like this where people of superior knowledge like you come to refute the zionistic lies.

Richard Bridge bows in his intellect to no zionist.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:50 PM

This message from a folk DJ in Northern Israel was posted today on the Folk-DJ e-mail group.

"I think that pretty much all of the people who have
related to this song have been correct, and certainly
sincere. The song does mention Lebanon's skys(read
also fields, streets etc) burning. As they were pretty
much throughout the 70's and 80's . Christian vs
Muslim, Palestinian vs Israeli. The song was written
around the time of the Lebanese Civil War- and does
not lay blame on any one side- I shall probably play
that song on one of my programmes just as soon as I
can get back to broadcasting- the Dolores Keane
version is beautiful.

The fact that I broadcast a peace programme does not
prevent me from seeing the difficulty of day to day
life here in the north of Israel at present and in the
past several years,- having to listen and look in the
skys for rockets or over my shoulder for terrorists. I
do mean this- whole areas of countryside roads have
been unsafe for years, ( I note this as a keen
cyclist) and life frequently disrupted for a few days
on end because of shelling or rocketing.
In the present tragic war- on this side most people
have fled from the north- some 300,000 people are
temporary refugees and many have no homes to go back
to.( Not to mention probably the whole population of
Southern Lebanon -not counting terrorists)
I can not go into the station- as it is now down to
one staff member at a time- in a bomb shelter.
I live outside that area- and to travel through the
rockets is madness.The kibbutz and the station seem to
be targeted more than many other places in the area-
perhaps because of the peace programmes. I am not
despairing, but feel that with the Hizbullah peace
talks or programmes are of no use- they want one
thing only, and they don't mind saying so- the
complete destruction and removal of Israel from the
map. My programmes are aimed at the good folks on both
sides of the border who just want to live and farm in
peace.

I really don't think that the FOLKDJ listis the place
for political discussion. Such discussions are carried
out on another forum- The Mudcat Cafe- which has
become an arena of endless mudslinging and infantile
name calling.
I'm just telling it as it is for this DJ- in lieu of
playlists- which I hope to resume as soon as I can.
"Normal Service will be resumed as soon as possible"
as they used to say on BBC TV!
Hoping and praying for Peace-
Yours,
Menachem Vinegrad- Radio Upper Galilee- Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:10 AM

There can be no moral right for Israel to say to the innocent or immobile non-combatant "Flee or be killed".

Defenders of Israel seem to be limited to Bearded Bruce, Robomatic, the aptly named Peace, C. Ham, and John on the Sunset Coast, most of whom seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.

Enough said.

Come on, now you have checked (if you have checked), admit that I was right to say that there were sufficient reasons not to accept Gross's assertions without checking.

Also please admit that history teaches that the BBC has a long history of truthful factual reportage.

Guest, please look up the primary meaning of "refute". All I do her is two things. First, I continue to point out that no matter how much Israel maybe entitled (if it is) to attack Hezbollah, that does not entitle it to slaughter the innocent and lay waste to the Lebanon generally. Second, I point out that there may be reasons to doubt the true independence of the sources of some pro-Israel writings. Others are happy to do the job of attacking pro-Lebanese writings.

Pro or anti Hezbollah writings are not relevant to the primary issue I raised here, of Israel killing non-Hezbollah Lebanese and destroying the Lebanese infrastructure.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:14 AM

Richard Bridge

You point out that there seems to a paucity of so-called defenders of Israel posting here. All that proves is there is a paucity of such defenders, but that observation does not invalidate what they have to say. Think of the old TV play/movie "Twelve Angry Men".

Israel has been under attack from Hezbullah for six years. The killing of 2 soldiers and the kidnapping of the 3rd was the act that finally stirred Israel to action. Even Hezbullah was surprised they had stirred such fury, because past actions had had only had mild responses. As I pointed out earlier, they played the same card once too often. I also said that the aggressor (in this instance Hizbullah) does not get to decide what the reprisal shall be, nor when it ends.

Israel demands security on the northern border. To Israel that means they eliminate Hizbullah as a fighting force, and interdict their supply lines. Since Hizbullah places its arms and rocket launchers amongst the general populace so Israel has two choices; allow Hibullah to freely attack Israeli cities, or eliminate the source of those attacks. So, I see Hizbullah as being responsible for those civilian deaths. Israel has indeed acts morally in warning civilians where the attacks are coming so they can try to leave. In doing so, Israel is also letting Hizbullah know where the attacks are coming. Question...is it possible that Hizbullah is making it difficult for civilians to leave, so there will be more casualties?

BTW, what actual military targets has Hizbullah attacked in Haifa, Acre or other Israeli cities? Never mind, that's irrelevent.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:49 PM

"If Hezbollah has committed warcrimes it does not justify warcrimes AGAINST THE LEBANON."


Agreed, BUT YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY WAR CRIMES against Lebenon.

Or do you claim that sites where illegal anti-civilian area mass bombardment rockets are launched from are NOT military targets?

Or that Hezbollah headquarters are not military targets?

Or that Hezbollah military supply dumps are not military targets?


IF there are civilians there, International law holds HEZBOLLAH as the responsible party for commiting war crimes, by locating in such forbidden areas.


"lay waste to the Lebanon generally."

Hardly. Have you even looked at what HAS been destroyed? Selected buildings used by Hezbollah, the bridges and roads used by Hezbollah to move the rocket launchers around, and WHAT ELSE? If Israel was doing as the rest of the world claims, it would look like Dresden or Tokeyo after the bombings, which it does not.

Regardless of any assumed bias, why are you incapable of looking at the FACTS presented by Gross, trying to find out the truth, and making up your own mind about it?

Israel just sent in commandos to go to a specific apartment to destroy a specific Hezbollah unit that has been launching long range rockets at Israel. A few bombs would have taken them out A LOT EASIER,
and with far less risk of taking Israeli casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

" That is murder (in English law) for the policeman must essentially and objectively have considered the risk of killing me or doing grievous bodliy harm to me and at best then disregarded it."


In American law, if a person is killed ( even by the police) when someone commits a crime, the person COMMITTING the crime is held responsible for murder, or at least willful homicide. IF the police are shown to have disregarded standards ( ie, acted contrary to established rules) then they, too, can be held at fault, but almost always to a lesser degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

"Defenders of Israel seem to be limited to Bearded Bruce, Robomatic, the aptly named Peace, C. Ham, and John on the Sunset Coast, most of whom seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.

Enough said."


Ok, please be so kind as to list those here who are attacking Israel, not inclunding those numerous but unaccountable GUESTS.



Enough said.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 09:51 PM

I am not attacking Israel, bb, I'm expressing my dismay at the actions of the current government. There is a difference between a government and its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM

I would like to hear from 'the usual suspects' who tell us how the IDF is 'targeting' civilians in Lebanon, just what military targets Hizbullah has rocketed in Haifa today/tonight. My understanding that some of the dead there and other places are actually Israeli Arabs. But I guess it doesn't matter; its for a good cause...the annihilation of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM

"Come on, now you have checked (if you have checked), admit that I was right to say that there were sufficient reasons not to accept Gross's assertions without checking."

There are usually sufficient reasons not to accept ANYone's assertions without checking. Saying that is a waste.

Richard, in some ways you remind me of a fellow who puts up the sail then puffs to create his own wind. On some days you admit that Israel has a right to defend its people. On others, you seem to say it doesn't.

I will admit that I wish this war was not going on. I think if you asked those of us you seem to dislike how we feel about civilian deaths in war--regardless of who causes those deaths--you'd be surprised to find that NONE of us like it. (I have not asked any of the folks: Bobad, John, BB, GUEST, C Ham: however, I bet they too wish this necessary action could come to an end in a helluva hurry.) But the thing you do not address is Hezbollah. How are the Israelis supposed to defend against them and their rockets? You stated--I was going to say admitted, but we both know that's a cheap lawyer's trick--that Hezbollah started this mess. So how would YOU curtail Hezbollah rockets attacks and suicide bomber attacks? Give us all a hint because we'd really like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:38 PM

from Robert fisk, in Beirut..

..Yesterday, needless to say, was another day of massacres, great and small. The largest appeared to be 40 farm workers in northern Lebanon, some of them Kurds - a people who do not even have a country. An Israeli missile was reported to have exploded among them as they loaded vegetables on to a refrigerated truck near Al-Qaa, a small village east of Hermel in the far north. The wounded were taken to hospital in Syria because the roads of Lebanon have now all been cratered by Israeli bomb-bursts. Later we learnt that an air strike on a house in the village of Taibeh in the south had killed seven civilians and wounded 10 seeking shelter from attack.

In Israel two civilians were killed by Hizbollah missiles but, as usual, Lebanon bore the brunt of the day's attacks which centred - incredibly - on the Christian heartland that has traditionally shown great sympathy towards Israel. It was the Christian Maronite community whose Phalangist militiamen were Israel's closest allies in its 1982 invasion of Lebanon yet Israel's air force yesterday attacked three highway bridges north of Beirut and - again as usual - it was the little people who died. One of them was Joseph Bassil, 65, a Christian man who had gone out on his daily jogging exercise with four friends north of Jounieh. "His friends packed up after four rounds of the bridge because it was hot," a member of his family told us later. "Joseph decided to do one more jog on the bridge. That was what killed him." The Israelis gave no reason for the attacks - no Hizbollah fighters would ever enter this Christian Maronite stronghold and the only hindrance was caused to humanitarian convoys - and there were growing fears in Lebanon that the latest air raids were a sign of Israel's frustration rather any serious military planning.

Indeed, as the Lebanon war continues to destroy innocent lives - most of them Lebanese - the conflict seems to be increasingly aimless. The Israeli air force has succeeded in killing perhaps 50 Hizbollah members and 600 civilians and has destroyed bridges, milk factories, gas stations, fuel storage depots, airport runways and thousands of homes. But to what purpose? Does the United States any longer believe Israel's claims that it will destroy Hizbollah when its army clearly cannot do anything of the kind? Does Washington not realise that when Israel grows tired of this war, it will plead for a ceasefire - which only Washington can deliver by doing what it most loathes to do: by taking the road to Damascus and asking for help from President Bashar al-Assad of Syria?

What in the meanwhile is happening to Lebanon? Bridges and buildings can be reconstructed - with European Union loans, no doubt - but many Lebanese are now questioning the institutions of the democracy for which the US was itself so full of praise last year. What is the point of a democratically elected Lebanese government which cannot protect its people? What is the point of a 75,000-member Lebanese army which cannot protect its nation, which cannot be sent to the border, which does not fire on Lebanon's enemies and which cannot disarm Hizbollah? Indeed, for many Lebanese Shias, Hizbollah is now the Lebanese army. So fierce has been Hizbollah's resistance - and so determined its attacks on Israeli ground troops in Lebanon - that many people here no longer recall that it was Hizbollah which provoked this latest war by crossing the border on 12 July, killing three Israeli soldiers and capturing two others. Israel's threats of enlarging the conflict even further are now met with amusement rather than horror by a Lebanese population which has been listening to Israel's warnings for 30 years with ever greater weariness. And yet they fear for their lives. If Tel Aviv is hit, will Beirut be spared. Or if central Beirut is hit, will Tel Aviv be spared? Hizbollah now uses Israel's language of an eye for an eye. Every Israeli taunt is met by a Hizbollah taunt.

And do the Israelis realise that they are legitimising Hizbollah, that a rag-tag army of guerrillas is winning its spurs against an Israeli army and air force whose targets - if intended - prove them to be war criminals and if unintended suggest that they are a rif-raff little better than the Arab armies they have been fighting, on and off, for more than half a century? Extraordinary precedents are being set in this Lebanon war.
... ened of Robert fisk article

Does israel truly believe that Hezbollah is "hiding" amongst Maronite Christians? Israeli is conducting genocide against the lebanese people.

Yes, I'm also concerned about the two israeli citizens that died yesterday, bombed by hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM

Nine Israelis killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks

Ten Israelis killed in rocket attack in Kiryat Shmona

At least nine Israelis killed in Hizbullah rocket attac

Three Israelis killed by Hizbollah rockets

8 Lebanese, 5 Israelis Killed, Fighting Continues

12 Israelis killed by Hezbollah guerillas: Tel Aviv orders seizure ...

Israelis killed in latest fighting

Eight Israelis killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks

http://news.google.ca/nwshp?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&tab=wn&q=israelis+killed&ie=ISO-8859-1

Here's some headlines from today's news freda, since you seem to be keeping score maybe you can update us.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Richard Bridge wrote:

Defenders of Israel seem to be limited to Bearded Bruce, Robomatic, the aptly named Peace, C. Ham, and John on the Sunset Coast, most of whom seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.

Enough said.

I'm not sure what 'was said'. Interestingly enough you characterized us as 'defenders' indicating Israel is under attack in this forum just as it was placed under attack by the now understood to be quite considerable forces of Hezbollah and the negligence or quiescent complicity of Lenanon's government and armed forces. Please explain how this translates to your doing our talking for us that we 'seem to think that it is acceptable to kill the hostage in order to save him.'

If you have paid attention to numerous hostage situations around the world and their resolution, it should be obvious to any reasonable being that a hostage is frequently killed during attempts to save them, and frequently killed even if there is no attempt to save them. Circumstances with Palestinian hostage takers bear this out rather brutally when elderly men in wheelchairs are cast into the sea or elderly women killed in hospital.

You then go on to say that you prefer some news sources to other news sources because you prefer some news sources to other news sources. You seem to use self justification as a technique as well as an excuse (you are not alone in this thread in doing that).

As for your statement:

Pro or anti Hezbollah writings are not relevant to the primary issue I raised here, of Israel killing non-Hezbollah Lebanese and destroying the Lebanese infrastructure.

Your premise is the entire reason for the propaganda campaign being waged against Israel, of which you are willing to be a part. Hezbollah has been establishing itself amongst the Lebanese for many years now and has embedded itself among the very civilian population and infrastructure that has become collateral damage. Think metastatic cancer.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 08:56 PM

Gentlemen, you condemn yourselves. The nub of your retort (apart from one point that is interesting and a quantity of invention) is that you think it fair, right, and proper for Israel to kill non-Hezbollah because they have to do it to kill Hezbollah. Military necessity is not the same as moral justification, and I wholly fail to see how it can be right to kill/punish the innocent in an attempt (if otherwise proper)to kill/punish the guilty.

Some of you don't seem to be capable of making the distinction between Hezbollah and the rest of the Lebanon.


The one point that is interesting is set out (twice) by Bearded Bruce:

"In American law, if a person is killed ( even by the police) when someone commits a crime, the person COMMITTING the crime is held responsible for murder, or at least willful homicide. IF the police are shown to have disregarded standards ( ie, acted contrary to established rules) then they, too, can be held at fault, but almost always to a lesser degree."

And "If there are civilians there, International law holds HEZBOLLAH as the responsible party for commiting war crimes, by locating in such forbidden areas."


I should appreciate seeing authority for those statements.




Bearded Bruce also says that the offending party does not get to choose the form of reprisal. That might be relevant if the Lebanese were the offending party, but they are not: Hezbollah are. Moreover, reprisals as such are not lawful, although self defence is, but the acts of self defence must be reasonable (similar to proportionate). If a man assaults me with his fists, it is unlawful for me to shoot him. These two principles are why Tony Martin here was convicted after shooting three burglars in the back as they were running away.



Although it is not the only measure of reasonableness, it is easy to test whether Israel's actions against the Lebanon (not solely against Hezbollah) are reasonable. How many Lebanese dead compared to Israeli? How much of the Lebanon destroyed, compared to Israel? Evenif the Lebanon were the right target, the response is disproportionate.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:07 PM

Also, in England, a driver of a fire engine has been found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving when he jumped traffic lights at 30 mph and flattened a car that had the green light. The (argued) defence of necessity did not entitle him to leave a trail of destruction on the way to the fire, said the judge.

In a very old case two seamen cast adrift in a boat would have starved to death if they had not killed and eaten the cabin-boy. Held: murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

"If a man assaults me with his fists, it is unlawful for me to shoot him."

Hezbollah continued to fire more than 1,900 [4] Katyusha rockets and other rockets into northern Israel's towns and cities, including Nahariya, Safed, Hatzor HaGlilit, Rosh Pina, Kiryat Shmona, and Karmiel, and numerous small agricultural villages.[5][6][7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_rocket_campaign_in_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

Some fists Richard.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM

Guilty, Richard. The only way Israel can rid itself of the Hizbullah threat is get them where they hide and launch rockets, so, yes, I blame Hizbullah for Lebanese deaths.
BTW, please show me where anybody not on your side does not distinguish between Lebanese and Hizbullah. Stop padding your arguments with false personal attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:47 AM

"Human shield
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Human shields)
Jump to: navigation, search
Human shield is a military term describing the presence of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets. It may also be used to describe the use of civilians to literally shield combatants during attacks, by forcing the civilians to march in front of the soldiers during human wave attacks. Using this technique increases the civilian casualty rate and is highly illegal in any nation that is party to the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Contents [hide]
1 Tactic in war
1.1 Iraq
1.2 Palestine
1.3 Israel
2 Tactic in peace campaigning
3 Other uses
4 See also
5 External links
6 Notes



[edit]
Tactic in war
The term human shield can also be used collectively where the shield is not an individual but the whole population. In this case, one party in a conflict intentionally positions its military assets amongst a civilian population or close to civilian facilities such as hospitals or schools in the hope that the other party will be reluctant to attack them. Furthermore, if the other party attacks these targets anyway, the resulting civilian casualties have propaganda value.

International law considers the use of human shields to protect targets a war crime. The Fourth Geneva Convention forbids the use of any civilian as a shield: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." (Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, August 12, 1949, 6 U.S.T. 3516, 75 U.N.T.S. 287, art. 28)."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

"JURCRM0503

REVISED TO DECEMBER 31, 2001

§ 5.3 FELONY MURDER § 53a-54c

The defendant is charged with the crime of felony murder in violation of § 53a-54c of the Penal Code, which provides as follows: ''A person is guilty of murder when, acting either alone or with one or more persons, he commits or attempts to commit . . . [designate the appropriate underlying felony] and, in the course of and in furtherance of such crime or of flight therefrom, he, or another participant, if any, causes the death of a person other than one of the participants. . . .''

For you to find the defendant guilty of this charge, the state must prove the following elements beyond a reasonable doubt: (1) that the defendant, acting alone or with one or more other persons, committed or attempted to commit the crime of [          ]. [Charge on the elements of the underlying felony.]; (2) that the defendant or another participant in the crime of [          ] caused the death of another person; (3) that the defendant or another participant caused the death while in the course of, and in furtherance of the commission or attempted commission of the crime of [          ], or, in immediate flight therefrom; and (4) that the victim was not a participant. A participant is one who takes part or shares in the underlying crime.

By this law, the legislature has provided that when, during the actual commission or attempted commission of [insert felony charged in information] or in the immediate flight therefrom, the perpetrator causes the death of another person, the perpetrator is guilty of felony murder. It does not matter that the act that caused the death was committed unintentionally or accidentally, rather than with the intention to cause death, nor does it matter if the death was the result of the victim's fear or flight. The perpetrator is as guilty when committing this form of murder as he would be if he had intentionally committed the act that caused the death."


Looking for more details.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM

"Lebanese government, which includes two Hizbullah ministers, decides to send 15,000 troops to the south as Israeli troops pull out of territory; "this should open the way for the amendment of the draft resolution in accordance with Lebanese demands," senior Lebanese official says"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3287927,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

Still doesn't answer the question: "What does one do about the Hezbollah attacks on Israel?" But maybe that's just a tough question to answer because it would engender the complete destruction of Israel to satisify Hezbollah. Any suggestions, Richard?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

I think Richard is falling prey to the idea in this thread of 'asymmetrical blame':

Anything Israel does is linked with a war crime.
Anything Hezbollah does is linked with civil disobediance.

Therefore dead Israelis are simply dead combatants.
Dead Lebanese are de facto innocent victims.

The link being made by Hezbollah to the Lebanese (via proximity and governmental bodies and lack of Lebanese military intervention) is apparently disregarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

Sunni cleric who inspired bin Laden issues anti-Hezbollah edict

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060805.wSunni0805/BNStory/Front

Associated Press

CAIRO, Egypt — A top Saudi Sunni cleric whose ideas inspired Osama bin Laden issued a religious edict Saturday disavowing the Shiite guerrilla group Hezbollah.

Hezbollah, which translates as "the party of God," is actually "the party of the devil," said Sheik Safar al-Hawali.

"Don't pray for Hezbollah," he said in the fatwa posted on his Web site.

The edict reflects the historical stand of strict Wahhabi doctrine viewing Shiite Muslims as heretics, and follows a similar fatwa from another popular Saudi cleric, Sheik Abdullah bin Jibreen, not to support Hezbollah.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:47 PM

It certainly gets complicated, with all the various sects and factions issuing their fatwas one needs a program to keep track.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM

Hezbollah is the main part of the Lebanese Resistance fighting the invasion of their country.For far too long Israel has invaded ,attacked and terrorised its neighbours almost at will.This time it is all going wrong and the Lebanese are flocking to support Hebollah.Its a quagmire and it is going to get worse for Israel...the Lebanese seem to have lost their fear.
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:57 AM

A skill-testing question, or a riddle, depending upon your point of
view: what do we call a one-sided ceasefire?

The answer to the question, the solution to the riddle, is not nearly
as obvious as one might think. In fact, based upon a cursory review
of sundry media reports and commentaries in recent days, it seems
that quite a few otherwise-sensible people are making demands for
a "ceasefire" that would apply entirely to one side, and not ever to
the other.

If that is the definition that "ceasefire" has acquired (and it has),
the people of Israel can be forgiven for being unenthusiastic. You
would be, too, if someone was firing bullets through your front door –
and a newspaper columnist was simultaneously condemning you for
calling in the police.

Since Qana, however, Richard Bridge and certain media commentators have taken up a tuneless ceasefire chorus – one that requires Israel to lay down its arms, more or less unilaterally. Hezbollah, it is assumed, will cheerfully comply with a polite request that they stop firing rockets at Israeli civilian targets. After all, Hezbollah could not possibly flout the robust humanitarian consensus at the United Nations, could they? Could they?

Well, yes, Hezbollah could continue to do precisely that – because
that is precisely what Hezbollah did in the many months leading up to
Israel's military response. For week after week after week, Hezbollah
fired on Israelis, bombed Israelis, kidnapped Israelis, murdered
Israelis. Israel complained, mightily, but the Richard Bridges of the world shrugged, mainly. Most notably, no one called for a ceasefire. Except Israel.

Now that Israel has finally responded, the Richard Bridge and his friends are inflamed. They are demanding, typically, that Israel conduct itself according to rules of engagement that Hezbollah (or any of Israel's arrayed enemies) are never required to observe, much less
acknowledge.

But that complaint is yesterday's bagels, you might say. It is
nothing new. Richard Bridge and his friends like McGrath of Harlow, Frida Underhill, CarolC, etc. have always held Israel to a different standard. As Charles Krauthammer put it: "What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities – every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians – and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds…?"

But vilified Israel is. Angry demonstrations against Israel
take place on a daily basis, its leaders and people likened to Nazis.

And, in the Mudcat Forum, anti-Jewish conspiracy theories now regularly take the place of serious analysis. Read the Toronto Sun's Eric Margolis, for example: "Israel's attempted destruction of Hezbollah is the first step in a long-planned campaign to strip away Iran's allies and turn Lebanon into a joint US-Israeli protectorate." Or the Toronto Star's Haroon Siddiqui: "The abductions [of Israeli soldiers] provided the excuse to do what Israel was planning anyway – try and destroy Hezbollah and Hamas."

These fiendish Israeli "campaigns" and "plans" apparently also
extended to Israel requiring that Hezbollah rockets be launched at
Israel – and that Israel look the other way while Israelis are
kidnapped by murderers. With the greatest of respect, Messrs.
Margolis and Siddiqui give the sasquatch coverage in the National
Enquirer the glossy finish of high academic research.

But if all of this sounds rather familiar, it is because it is:
whenever Israel responds to organized campaigns of mass murder, as is
its right, sputtering indignation is heard far and wide. Tenured
university professors rail against the Zionist state on newspaper op-
ed pages; McGrath of Harlow and Frida Underhill demand that Israel exercise restraint never practiced by its enemies; and CarolC says the Middle East would be a utopian paradise if the "occupation" was ended.

And therein lays the rub – and the answer to the riddle at the
outset. What do we call a one-sided ceasefire?

Well, we call it suicide. Hezbollah certainly would.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:59 AM

Hizbollah is not the main Lebanese Resistance fight the invasion of Lebanon; they are the reason there is an invasion of Lebanon!!! Alas, there is some validity to the rest of that post

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

Expert legal opinion on "war crimes" in the current conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:32 PM

Excellent link C.Ham, I hope that it is read by the various "guests" as well as Richard Bridge, freda underhill and the others who bleat on about Israel's war crimes, perhaps they would like to present us with their credentials in international law so that we can compare them with the article's author: "Mr. Kittrie is professor of international law at Arizona State University and served in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the U.S. State Department from 1993 to 2003."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: number 6
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:39 PM

They'll read it Bobad ... but will retort with some wacky interpetation of Zionism, the Chosen People and how it is parallel to the Nazi Party of Germany ... and that Israeli's mandate is to wipe the whole populace of Lebanon. No use debating (intelligently) this conflict with that lot.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:34 PM

From Reuters:

'HAIFA, 8 August (IRIN) - Doctors are concerned that Hezbollah's use of ballbearings in many of the rockets fired into northern Israel is increasing the number of casualties: 36 civilians have been killed so far, according to Israeli authorities.

"These bullets [ballbearings] cause damaging penetrative injuries," said Dr Eran Tal-or, the attending physician at the trauma unit in Haifa's Rambam Hospital. "If the bullet is lodged in the brain, for example, we wouldn't even try to get it out because we would cause even more damage. And if it cuts a major artery, then you will be dead in no time."'

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:25 PM

Gee, what a surprise . . . .

"Questions about journalistic integrity emerged this weekend from the continuing conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, after a photojournalist was found to have doctored two images out of Beirut.

This two-photo combination shows an image, as submitted to Reuters by Beirut-based freelance photographer Adnan Hajj, on top, and the original on the bottom. Reuters on Sunday withdrew the image after evidence suggested it was manipulated to show more smoke. (Adnan Hajj, Reuters/Associated Press) The Reuters News Agency has withdrawn more than 900 images from its database taken by Adnan Hajj, one of its freelance photographers based in Beirut."

from here.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM

From http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008756

"The track record of many of Israel's most powerful accusers--including China, Russia and the European Union--is not nearly as good at balancing civilian risk against military goals.
China killed hundreds of peaceful Tiananmen Square protestors in 1989. It has for five decades occupied Tibet, slaughtering tens of thousands; and it vows to invade Taiwan if it declares independence. Neither the Tiananmen protesters nor Tibet nor Taiwan has ever threatened to "wipe China off the map."

Russia has fought since 1994 to suppress Chechnya's independence movement. Out of a Chechen population of one million, as many as 200,000 have been killed as Russia has leveled the capital city of Grozny. Chechen rebels pose no threat to "wipe Russia off the map." All of the leading EU countries actively participated in NATO's 78-day bombing campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999. The military goal was to stop Yugoslavia from oppressing its Kosovar minority. NATO bombs and missiles hit Yugoslav bridges, power plants and a television station, killing hundreds of civilians. Yugoslavia posed no threat to the existence of any of the EU countries that bombed it.

Compared with how China, Russia, and the EU have dealt with non-existential threats--and despite the law-flouting behavior of Hezbollah, Iran and Syria--Israel's responses to the threats to its existence have been remarkably restrained rather than disproportionately violent."

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:25 AM

Guest, hugo:

Did you ever answer the question:

I take it that you support the 1967 borders defining Israel and Israel's right to defend them as stated by CarolC?

I don't think you did.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: DougR
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

The latest proposition presented by the Arabs in the UN to send the Lebenese Army down (assisted by some internation force yet to be named and organized) to protect Israel from terrorist attacks is laughable.

Like sending the wolf to guard the hen house.

I wrote in a post here on the Mudcat years ago that the road to final peace in that region is for one side to defeat the other. I stll believe that.

The Isralies are attacking Lebanon because that's where the bad guys are. Lebanon should have disarmed Hezballah years ago if it wanted to protect itself.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

The internal US law citations above support my position, not those of their proponents.

The hawks above are still failing to distinguish between Hezbollah and the Lebanon. I am at a loss to suggest a respectable motive for this failing now that I have ponted it out so many times.

I have been away having a debate with a barrister who teaches criminal law at two universities, and he has been liaising with a Canadian lawyer who has a practice in criminal law and has defended a number of murders.

The upshot of the debate was as follows: -




Q.   "So we are agreed that neither in England nor Canada would there be a viable defence for a policeman who deliberately killed the hostage in order to kill the kidnapper?"

A.   "We are less certain than you; but agree that this should be the case."


I am off to read C. Ham's link but am uninspired by the stated fact that "Mr. Kittrie is professor of international law at Arizona State University and served in the Office of the Legal Adviser at the U.S. State Department from 1993 to 2003."   Don't you think this sort of gives him a foot in one camp?   I am unbiased: I am neither an Israeli (nor Jewish) nor American, nor am I a member of Hezbollah nor a Moslem nor of any Arabic nationality residence or descent.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

The article to which C. Ham links is printed in the Wall Street Journal, pillar of balance. Note to Americans, this is sarcasm.

It quite simply does not withstand critical reading. There can be no doubt at all (and the evidence piles up, like the corpses, day by day) that Israel is intentionally inflicting damage on the non-combatant Lebanese and Lebanese (not Hezbollah) infrastructure. I even heard an effective admission of it by an Israeli airforce spokesman.

The war crimes record of Russia, Hezbollah, or others is wholly off the point. There have been no war crimes by the Lebanon or the Lebanese (as distinct from Hezbollah), and even if there had been, that would not justify retaliatory war crimes.

As time wears on it is clear that the issue of Israel's conduct against the Lebanon is no longer a matter of opinion. It is beyond doubt or effective argument (as here tested) damnable. We had the debate. Israel has no valid defence against the accusation.

I don't really see any point in prolonging this debate: the world against Israel, some of America, and Blair.   It has however given me a fresh perspective on the debate about Israel on the one hand and Hezbollah and Hamas on the other, and I fear as a result that I am tending to see Israel as invaders and displacers far worse than the English ever were in Ireland. I am not yet concluded, but that is my feeling, a far cry from what I thought in 1967. Let us have that debate at another time in another place.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:28 PM

Richard Bridge dismissed one article I linked to because he suspected the author was Jewish.

Now he dismisses another article because it was published in the Wall Street Journal.

Here is a biography of Orde Kittrie, the author. His credentials are impeccable.

And what are Richard Bridge's credentials as a legal scholar who can stand up to Professor Kittrie?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 10:57 PM

"There can be no doubt at all (and the evidence piles up, like the corpses, day by day) that Israel is intentionally inflicting damage on the non-combatant Lebanese and Lebanese (not Hezbollah) infrastructure."


SInce the point of contention is that you have NOT demonstrated that Israel is doing so, nor that it has committed "war crimes" other than in your personnal opinion, I fail to see how you can say "There can be no doubt at all "


I have no doubt at all that YOU have not attempted to find out the facts about any of the claims of "war crimes" beyond looking at a single side's presentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:13 AM

If Israel WAS targeting civilians, does anyone here actually think the death toll would be so low?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 03:19 AM

Without limitation:

Yesterday (or was it the day before), to give but one example, Israel took down an entire apartment block in a mainly Christian, non-Hezbollah, area of Beirut. It was occupied by people eating ther evening meals. It is not credible that they thought there were only (or even mainly) Hezbollah there - even if part of the block had been (and I have yet seen no evidence to that effect) used to launch or plan a Hezbollah attack. That can only have been a deliberate attack on civilians.

Israel is leafleting Tyre (sp?). Any vehicle that moves is being targeted. We've all seen the pictures of the Red Cross ambulance with the rocket hole right through the middle of the red cross. There is not even a pretence that civilians are not being targetted.

There is a difference between "civilians" and "all civilians".

I set out above why Ham's preferred article was logically indefensible. The US government links of the writer and the place of publication made it suspect. The internal defects made it laughable, for the reasons I have already given in my post specifically directed to it. Go and check. You don't have to kowtow to the author merely because he has a CV you like.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

"That can only have been a deliberate attack on civilians."


Hardly. If Israel determines the location of the launch of Hezbollah rockets, and attacks THAT point, it is NOT a "DELIBERATE" attack against civilians. It IS a war crime on the part of Hezbollah to have launched from such an apartment block.


YOUR logic would require that a baseball player who hit a ball into the stands ( which all of them try to do!) and hits someone is guilty of deliberate assault! After all, someone was hurt, and he hit the ball.

International law is specific about this: If the target is a military one,such as a launching site for illegal area mass bambardment rockets, and civilians have been warned, the attacker is NOT in violation.


"even if part of the block had been (and I have yet seen no evidence to that effect) used to launch or plan a Hezbollah attack."

And where have you looked for such evidence? It has been demonstrated that the BBC is being given guided tours by Hezbollah, being shown only what Hezbollah wants you to know. What other sources have you even loooked at?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:38 AM

"We've all seen the pictures of the Red Cross ambulance with the rocket hole right through the middle of the red cross."


And I have seen NO credible evidence that the rocket was from an Israeli source. Can you provide anything beyond hearsay? If Israel HAD hit that ambulance, they should get a refund on the warhead- it caused remarkably little damage.

Or do you believe anything that Hezbollah says, and nothing that Israel says? THAT is evidence of bigotry. And I am sure that there ia one Jew somewhere YOU hate- so if so, YOU are a Jew-hating bigot.


BTW, The Lebonese Red Cross and Crescent has revised the casualty count down to 28 in Qana. Has the BBC told you yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:51 AM

Interesting that the press ran with the initial figure of 58 and now it's 28 they seem to be real quiet about it, huh?

I wonder, does Hezbollah inform Israelis when it about to send rockets? Does anyone know?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:36 PM

from "Subject: BS: In the name of Allah
From: C. Ham - PM
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 03:42 PM

In the name of Allah

A fascinating article by Riad Ali, a television reporter who is an Israeli Arab and Moslem. "

"When the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza adopted suicide bombing as their strategy in fighting Israel, I concluded that their war against the occupation is over, and an indiscriminate war on Jews has begun. I was convinced then, as I am now, that at that moment, the Palestinians lost the war, at least in the moral sense. "

and

" today it is clear to see that its war is against Jews wherever they may be. You have to be deaf in order not to hear the voice of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as it emerges from Nasrallah's throat, and naive in order to believe that the purpose of the arsenal Nasrallah has accumulated is the release of prisoners and the liberation of the Shaba Farms. "

Finally,

"
I am not at war with the Jews, nor with the people of Israel. I have an argument with the Jews, and I have an argument with the State of Israel. On one point I do not argue, and that is the right of the Jewish people to their own independent state. To the best of my understanding, this war, as with the intifada, has to be judged from this perspective. "

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:05 PM

"The Israeli military also dropped leaflets in Beirut, warning of expanded operations inside the capital and urging people in southern Shiite neighborhoods to evacuate. Those neighborhoods have been bastions of support for Hezbollah.

"To the people who live in Hay El Soulom, Borj El Barajneh, Shiyah ... For your safety," one flier warned.

"You must evacuate these areas immediately and evacuate any area from where Hezbollah and its members or their assistants are launching their terrorist operations.

"Be aware!"

Also receiving warning leaflets from Israel were northern Lebanese towns including El Beddaoui, Lebanese Internal Security Forces said.

Those leaflets warned that Israel will target any type of truck moving along the coastal road.

"Be aware that anybody using pick-ups or trucks puts his life in danger," one leaflet warned.

The leaflets said such vehicles will be targeted under suspicion of "transporting rockets, military ammunitions and terrorists."

....


"To date, Hezbollah has fired 3,333 rockets into northern Israel, Israeli authorities report."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/10/mideast.main/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:52 AM

And finally the world press focus has begun to turn back to where mine began - the Israeli oppression of Gaza.

Sorry Bruce, if you don't (or won't) see the difference between Israel attacking Hezbollah and Israel attacking non-combatants I cannot help your moral bankruptcy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM

The whole world should know about the Israeli oppression of Gaza. If anyone had paid attention to the plight of those living in the Gaza strip, perhaps we would not be where we are today. Its a problem and it has to be solved. Turning a blind eye to the plight of those at the mercy of Israel will not make the problem go away.

I'm sure my father never dreamed that by saving Jews from the gas chamber, they would go on to create an oppressive, military regime that would imprison others in such large numbers. I am also sure that the Zionist philosophy has been thoroughly corrupted by self-serving politicians.

I feel very, very sad for the people of the Middle East and I'm sure most of them wish the politicians and their armies would just go away and let them live in harmony with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM

Sorry Richard, if you don't (or won't) see the difference between Israel attacking Hezbollah and Hezbollah attacking non-combatants I cannot help your moral bankruptcy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:33 PM

"the Israeli oppression of Gaza."

Did not Israel pull out of Gaza not too long ago, and did not Hamas immediately begin firing rockets into Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM

Gee, Dianavan, maybe your father should have just left those ungrateful Jews in those camps where he found them. Do you realize how stupid that statement you wrote sounds?
If, indeed, he was part of the liberation process, thank you to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:32 PM

I aplologize for that statement, John.

My point is that when people are rescued and given a nation of their own, they shouldn't turn around and oppress others.

My family hated the Nazis for their treatment of the Jews, supported the U.N. and the creation of Israel. My dad is dead but I'm sure he is rolling over in his grave at the recent events.

Subject: RE: BS: Gaza Strip 28/9 June 2006
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM

Again and again I've tried to make the same point by asking the regular participants on this thread if they accept that Israel has the right to any borders, any borders at all, and a parallel right to defend those borders. There is a four way split I have observed in the responses:

1) Outright rejection of Israel with any borders, in effect, a rejection of Israel's right to exist.

2) Verbal agreement that Israel has the right to borders, but diffidence in allowing Israel to respond to Hezbollah, which we can all agree is in category 1).

3) Agreement that Israel has the right to borders, but difficulty in accepting the level of response, at least on the part of Israel, in the recent conflict.

4) Agreement that Israel has the right to borders, and acceptance for the most part in Israel's level of response under the Hezbollah attacks.

I do not think comparisons with the Nazis are germaine to the discussion, but they do serve to shed more heat than light and maybe that's what some of y'all are goin' for.