Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold

Subject: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Penny
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 05:19 PM

I'm sorry if this is in the database, but as my Gaelic is as much as you would expect from a Saxon from England's South East, I can't spell the right sounds, so I can't search there. My sister returned from a working holiday in Loch Duich years ago, with a catchy and repetitive song which she believed to be about porage and which went something like (primary school phonetic miss-spelling coming up) brocken laum, tanner laum, brocken lau ma zooen. (I won't go on... it hurts to be so obviously wrong!) Can anyone correct me and put me on the road to the right words, with meaning if possible. (And probably pronunciation: I can mimic sounds I hear, but off the page maybe not.)

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Kernow John
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 07:04 PM

Hi Penny
I play this as a tune and can post it if you wish. I only know it phonetically (is there such a word?)
The title is Brochan Lom and it goes some how like this:
Brochan lom tanna lom
brochan lom ma sura
Brochan lom tanna lom
brochan lom ma sura
Brochan lom tanna lom
brochan lom ma sura
Brocha lonesi tanna lonesi
brochan lom ma sura.
I played the tune at a Burns night supper recently and this is what a Scots piper got up and sang.
I remember Robin Hall and Jimmy Mcgregor singing it in the late 50's and they said it meant Hot porridge cold porridge stick it on the wall.
Regards Baz

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Penny
Date: 23 Feb 99 - 11:49 AM

Thanks Baz, that does fit with what I remember: I do remember the tune OK. It sounds about as meaningful as Sospan Fach!

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Cuilionn
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:14 AM

Here's what ye are luikin' for, I believe:

     Rann/Verse 1:
  Brochan lom, tana lom, brochan lom s—ghain (3x)
  Brochan lom 's e tana lom, 's e brochan lom s—ghain
     SŠist/Chorus:
  Brochan tana, tana, tana, brochan lom s—ghain (3x)
  Brochan lom 's e tana lom, 's e brochan lom s—ghain
     Rann/Verse 2:
  Thugaibh aran do na balaich leis a' bhrocan s—ghain (3x)
  Brochan lom 's e tana lom, 's e brochan lom s—ghain
    (SŠist/Chorus)
     Rann/Verse 3:
  Seo an rud a gheibheamaid o nighean Gobha 'n Duine (3x)
  Brochan lom 's e tana lom, 's e brochan lom s—ghain
    (SŠist/Chorus)

A rough translation (which invites correction frae those whae hae mair Gaelic) is as follows:

1) Thin porridge, sparse & thin, thin & watery porridge.
   Thin porridge, it is sparse & thin, it is thin & watery porridge.
2) Give bread to the lads with the watery porridge.
   Thin porridge, it is sparse & thin, it is thin & watery porridge.
3) This is the thing to get from the blackmith's daughter.
   Thin porridge, it is sparse & thin, it is thin & watery porridge.

  Gabh sp•rs! (Have fun!)

     --Cuilionn

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Cuilionn
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:16 AM

Och! Sorry for th' miserable formattin'... It luikit nice afore I postit it. I've nae gaet this stuff figgerit oot jist yet. Hope ye can still read it!

--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Penny
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:17 PM

Thanks, I knew I had more tune than words: now I shan't have to offend the orthodox by whistling. Also good to know I shan't be offending by singing rudely in another tongue - or shall I? What's that about the smith's daughter doing in there?

Slainte

Penny

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Penny
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:24 PM

Dear me, the MS Word spell checker has no very high opinion of Scots: where it was not criticizing the spelling, it was after the grammar.

Shocking, I call it.

Penny

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Kernow John
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 06:04 PM

Cuilionn
My thanks are added to Penny's.
It's great to have all the words after all these years.
Regards Baz.

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: GUEST, A Scot
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 08:05 AM

Looking at your web site I Think these bloody english are putting down the Scots again!!!! - do you have any respect for the language, the Scots, the Country? No!! What you suffer from is an inferiority complex from living next door to a country that existed before the name England could even be found on a map in pre medieval days - do some research but most of all give us some RESPECT!!

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Sep 05 - 11:05 AM

The transalation by Cuilion is correct, MacGregor and Hall had no Gaelic.


O brochan lom, tana lom,
Brochan lom sùghain,
Brochan lom, tana lom,
Brochan lom sùghain;
Brochan lom, tana lom,
Brochan lom sùghain,
Brochan lom 's e tana lom,
'S e brochan lom sùghain.


[Chorus:]
Brochan tana, tana, tana,
Brochan lom sùghain,
Brochan tana, tana, tana,
Brochan lom sùghain;
Brochan tana, tana, tana,
Brochan lom sùghain,
Brochan lom 's e tana lom,
'S e brochan lom sùghain.


Thugaibh aran do na balaich
Leis a' bhrochan sùghain,
Thugaibh aran do na balaich
Leis a' bhrochan sùghain;
Thugaibh aran do na balaich
Leis a' bhrochan sùghain,
Brochan lom 's e tana lom,
'S e brochan lom sùghain.

Seo an rud a gheibheamaid
O Nighean Gobh' an Dùine,
Seo an rud a gheibheamaid
O Nighean Gobh' an Dùine,
Seo an rud a gheibheamaid
O Nighean Gobh' an Dùine:
Brochan lom 's e tana lom,
'S e brochan lom sùghain.

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:29 AM

Sort of North of the Border version of Pease pudding cold, pease pudding hot.

LTS

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:53 AM

Just so long as it is not this

Subject: RE: hot porage, cold porage? Help!
From: GUEST,soup
Date: 07 Jun 10 - 05:10 AM

I am pretty much a monoglot but it was explained to me as, THIN PORRIDGE, THICK PORRIDGE.
This is a waulking the tweed 'song'. Imagine rows of women 'manipulating' a bolt of cloth all chanting that 'song' to keep in time.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFoO6A7oRH0&feature=related
Not the right song and the bolt would be wet (the waulking/manipulating would 'close' the weave of the cloth).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 09:48 PM

It@ a song that takes me back many years, and a lot of happy memories

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,hannahcat
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 02:48 PM

Thanks. I need to sing this tomorow and had lost the Phonetic way to do it. Phew.Saved!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 08:10 AM

What's the "du\ine" bit mean then, in "gobha an du\ine"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Megan L
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 08:46 AM

This isnt Bochan Lom but it shows the use of a waulkin song. Lomax said it was to stretch the tweed but anyone who has worn it will know he got it the wrong way round waulkin tweed is like preshrinking to make the threads tighter making the fabric hard wearing and a good old tweed doesnt really bother about a Scots Mist.
Waulkin tweed

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 08:53 AM

A bit of incidental info - it's basically the same tune as the English jig Hot Punch.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 10:07 AM

HughM, it means blacksmith (see postings above), duine is "man".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 10:36 AM

i sang this at school once many years ago

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 07:47 AM

Jim, that's what puzzled me. If "gobha" is a blacksmith and "duine" is a man, "gobha an duine" looks like "the blacksmith of the man", which doesn't seem to make sense. However, I suppose in English someone large could be described as "a giant of a man", so is this a similar idiomatic way of saying "the man who is a blacksmith"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 11:19 AM

HughM, I see what you mean but there seems to be various "smiths" in Gaelic. For example, a farrier is described as a gobha-"horse-shoe" and another name for a blacksmith is gobha-"iron" so I can only think that gobha is a metal worker who can work with iron but there are special types of work he does. The gobha an duine in the song I would think is merely emphasis (I think!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 11:40 AM

HughM, I have just looked up the song in Frances Tolmie's collection of songs from the Western Isles and she prints the line in Gaelic as: Sud an rud a gheibheamaid 'o nighean gobh' an Duine
which she translates as: This is what we used to get from the smith's daughter at the Dun. (there are graves over the u in both words).
The word in capitals, Dun, suggests a place, a hill or fortress and would make sense so my last posting, last sentence, would be erroneous and you would be correct in querying the meaning of duine (in this context).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 12:13 PM

Hi HughM,
It's me again! Have a look here which seems to confirm my last posting.
Brochan lom

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From:
Date: 20 Jan 12 - 09:01 PM

As the web-site that Jim supplied shows, nighean Gobha 'n D`ine" means the daughter of the Smith of the Dun" literally. This is what is described as the Genitive Case (Possessive) for the Gaelic words Gobha and Dun.

In the Dun, the i and e are added as part of the change to the Genitive. Gobha doesn't due to starting with g and ending with a

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 08:08 AM

This is starting to make more sense to me now, but what puzzles me still is that a loch containing an island with a tower on it often seems to be called "Loch an Du\in", without an e at the end (e.g. on Scalpay and North Uist I think). In fact there's a tune with that name. Maybe the genitive has regional variations. Also, why does Du\ine have a capital letter? Is there a place called An Du\n perhaps?
   I can't help recalling what I once read in a textbook: "No matter how long you study Gaelic, the genitive will give you trouble"!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 08:35 AM

I think Dun with a capital letter means that it is a place. As a common noun it can mean a hill or a fort.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From:
Date: 23 Jan 12 - 10:20 AM

dùn is Gaelic for fort (really fortification) of many sizes. An = the a definite article, In the genitive, quite often depending on gender the e is added.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,Dave Rado
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 01:38 AM

Can anyone who knows Gaelic write all the words out in phonetic-English way so that I can pronounce it properly when singing it? I've heard the second verse in particular pronounced in many very different ways (some of which I can't make out properly, and in any case I don't know which is right and which wrong) - and I've never heard the third verse being sung at all.

Even in the case of the first verse I've heard many different pronunciations of some of the words - for instance, sjould "sùghain" be pronounced like "soo-an" or like "soo-yan"? (I've heard both.) Is "lom" pronounced like "lom" or like "loam"? And so on.

There's something that claims to be a phonetic rendition of the song on scotsindependent.org but it is different from every rendition I've heard - for instance, I've never heard "gillean" in verse 2 pronounced the way "geelyan" would be pronounced if it were an English word (which is my idea of what a phonetic rendition should mean). So I don't trust it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 03:08 AM

Dave, the phonetic words on your link are pretty good. Gillean means boy or youth. I would shorten up the double E a bit. Gaelic phonics are very difficult to replicate in an English tongue.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 04:17 AM

I notice on the scottishindependent.org link that gobha is capitalised but not Duine, a mistake I think. Also as far as pronunciation is concerned, the phonetics show "loam's" which in English is almost one syllable whereas in Gaelic it is two., "lom a sooa".
Listen to Calum Kennedy on YouTube (just Google).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 11:26 AM

Thanks for your replies - but every word in the second verse in the Callum Kennedy recording sounds totally different to me both from the phonetic rendition at scotsindependent.org and from for example the Am Baile recording. And the Linda Macleod version sounds different again, (and Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor are different from all three although I realise they weren't Gaelic speakers); and none of those four recordings sound much like the phonetic text. For instance none of the them pronounce "gillean" as if it were spelt anything like "geelyan"!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 24 Jan 12 - 06:01 PM

I see, or rather, hear, what you mean about Calum Kennedy. I think the pronunciation in the other two versions is more common.
   I would suggest using the word "balaich" instead of "gillean" as in the lyrics above, because the first syllable falls on a short note in the tune and the second syllable on a longer one. I think that's why "gillean" in the recordings doesn't sound like "geelyan". Pronoucing "gillean" in the normal way tends to make the tune more like a hornpipe than a strathspey.
   Something not obvious from the phonetics, and not very obvious in the recordings, is that the letter l, when adjacent to an a, o, or u, (e.g. in "balaich" and "lom") should be pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the back of the top front teeth. It's not always easy, (especially after "brochan") but I try to do it as best I can, having heard a judge at the Mod complaining bitterly about singers not paying attention to it. I get the impression that this isn't a regional pronunciation; it applies everywhere from Kerry to Caithness.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 02:57 AM

Here's a message Dave Rado couldn't post because there's a limit on the number of links a Guest can post:

---

Hi Hugh

Thanks for drawing my attention to the "balaich" version - I hadn't noticed that post. That explains why some of the recordings sound so totally different - for instance, Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor and Linda Macleod are clearly singing "balaich" rather than "gillean", which was part of the reason I was so confused before I read your post. But all the written lyrics I've seen have it as "gillean" for some reason.

But I'm still confused by the different pronunciations, and still find some of the the phonetic rendition at scotsindependent.org rather strange, given the recordings.

Phonetically speaking:

Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor sound like they're singing "Hookev aran tony pallaich".

Cluich Còmhla sound like they're singing "Hookev aran hanay geeyen" (NOT geelyen, and "do na" really does sound like "hanay" in their recording).


Linda Macleod sounds like she's singing "Hookev aran donna ballaich" (not "doe na").

As for Callum Kennedy, if he sings any consonants at all in the second verse of his rendition, I can't hear them!

So that's several different pronunciations of "do na" and of "ballaich" and of "gillean", and apart from one of the "ballaich"s, not one of them matches the pronunciations given by Scotsindependant.org, at least to my ear.

Also I'm not clear why you prefer ballaich rather than gillean? And what does ballaich mean?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From:
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 10:19 AM

From MacLeod's dictionary,

Balach (Balaich is the plural in the context) : A young man, a fellow, a sturdy fellow, a lad.

Gille (Gillean is the plural) : A hoy, lad, youth; a man servant.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From:
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 10:27 AM

A belated response to Soup's comment about this being a "waulking" song. It's commonly a Puirt a beul, or Mouth Tune. It's essentially a nonsense song to a tune commonly used to dance to.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 11:01 AM

I suppose that as far as pronunciation is concerned,if Scots Gaelic is anything like Irish Language then it too probably has several dialects, especially when recording very old folk material. As a Gaelic speaking Munster Irishman I find a lot of difficulty in understanding an Ulster man speaking Irish, not to mention some of the RTE Irish speakers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From:
Date: 01 Feb 12 - 11:15 PM

Just like "English"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 02 Feb 12 - 07:28 AM

This posting reminds me of a time when I was with Robin Hall & Jimmie McGregor when they were doing some dates in Scotland up in the North West. Robin and Jimmie were not sure about attempting this song in that area knowing full well that their Gaelic was a bit "iffy".The guy who organised the tour was from Dundee and assured them that nobody up there would probably even know it. However after the first couple of words the whole audience were singing along so much so that any mispronunciation by R & J wouldn't have been heard anyway.
So much for the knowledge of concert promoters.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Dave Rado
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 05:36 AM

Re. Beachcomber's post, that makes sense, although I hadn't expected it given the relatively small number of Scots Gaelic speakers in Scotland nowadays. Also, people tend not to sing in strong English dialects.

Re. George Seto's post, thank for that.

Re. Hoot's post, lol! I envy you having been with them in their pomp, I love their singing.

I sang it in a folk club last week (including the third verse, which I've still never heard sung, so I hope my pronunciation was okay - but the audience wouldn't have known better in any case). It was the type of folk club where most people bring an instrument and accompany everyone who is singing: I don't play an instrument, but was brilliantly accompanied by an accordionist, a violinist, a pianist, and about 10 guitarists, all of whom picked it up almost instantly.

It was in a bar and restaurant: there were about 20 performers sat round a very long table, and then the non-performers were scattered around the rest of the bar drinking or eating. The person whose turn it was to sing was given a microphone so one could be heard easily. Being close to Burns night, everyone sang Scottish songs.

I managed to get everyone singing along with the chorus, even most of the non-performers, and even though this was in the south of England and it might as well have been in double dutch as far as most of them were concerned! Great fun.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,Dave MacLean
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 03:13 PM

Its a person's tname. the smithie is named Dun Pronounced Done His daugthter dosen't care enough about the local boys to make the porride porridge properly. Porridge was a staple with us and we had it every morning. Still do. It is a drinking song going back to when the pipes were banned by our bretherin from the south and I dunna mean England, and the pipers used the mouth music to train the children on the instrument. The best way to hear it is at a funeral or wedding when every one is pissed to the gills, or watching a pair of teuchters trying to walk down the road with the carmunchie so bad they are bouncing off each other. The only difference between a Highland wake and a highland wedding is one less drunk at the wake. All you need is a pair o'wellies, good thik tweed breeks, and a thick pullover to fit in. Ach well Sanchee va to hew hall.
Sing it like a pipie: OH Nyah needlda needah nahyeedalnenaneena needle di nedeedlda needle da needle nya dedee dum

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:58 AM

Sanchee va??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,Bh
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 11:33 AM

I know this is several years after the start of the conversation but if you want to hear it sung by islanders (some of which didn't speak a word of English) look at the party scene in Whisky Galore

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Brochan Lom Tana Lom / Hot Porridge Cold
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 19 Mar 18 - 09:10 AM

From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:58 AM

Sanchee va??

Slainte mhath, perhaps?