BS: Meat query - one for the linguists

Subject: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Arnie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:58 AM

Now here's a question that's been bothering me this week. On Sunday, I had roast lamb for dinner - very nice too. However, being a bit interested in linguistics, I then wondered why the meat is called lamb and the creature it comes from is also a lamb. In general, all our meat products are named after the Norman French word - beef = boeuf, pork = porc etc., as after the Norman invasion, the kitchen staff were English peasants and had to learn the French terms for the meat they were obliged to prepare for their Norman masters. So, why do we eat lamb and not agneau?? Is it because the Normans never ate lamb, preferring to wait until the lamb had grown into a mouton? Any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM

I think you may have just answered your question; though it doesn't explain the English names for poultry or rabbit. And what about venison?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM

When wool is one of your main fabrics and exports, then it seems a bit silly to eat your new 'crop' before it's had a chance to produce anything. It's like cutting down your beans before they've podded or ploughing up your wheatfield when it's only just sprouted. Why sell lamb meat once when you can sell wool 4 or 5 times from the same animal?

LTS
(Formerly cook for mediaeval banquets - no lamb there either!)

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:13 AM

I would have thought so. Sheep were very much smaller before the intensive breeding programs of the agricultural revolution. Lambs would have been tiny, and you would have needed a lot of them to serve the typical Norman hall full of lords, knights and ladies. So waiting for it to grow a bit was a better bet. I suspect that they expected rather less sophisticated cuisine back then, and the amount meant more than the taste, not forgetting the ritual and status aspects of food- I doubt if anyone has ever really liked boar's head (not tete du sanglier or verrat). Modern French cookery only dates back to the late 16th century, when they imported it from Italy with Marie de Medicis.

It's also interesting that though the Normans introduced the rabbit (in its modern form), no one eats lapin, and perhaps no one wanted to eat chevre. And they cooked deer as venison, but hares didn't become lievres (though the little ones are leverets).

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:58 AM

Re: Poultry - it's the same sort of scenario. You need eggs so you don't eat the laying hens. Chick sexing is difficult enough at the best of times so you leave them to grow. Once they've got big enough you can separate the cocks from the hens and fatten them up to eat - hence pullet (poulet) which is a female that hasn't started laying yet. The hens that do start laying, are kept for eggs, the others are fattened up and eaten.

Goats were not particularly common in Norman/Mediaeval Britain, simply because we have the ability to support a much fussier breed of animal. Goats do and will eat anything. But why keep a few goats that will eat everything in sight and give only a little milk when you can have one cow that is a) much less labour intensive; b) is twice the size so gives more milk; c) provides more 'fertiliser' than a goat; d) has a much tastier meat and more of it and e)is easy to feed without risk to hedges, trees or winter underwear.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:02 AM

Britannica comes up with this:-

(from Latin venatus, "to hunt"), the meat from any kind of deer; originally, the term referred to any kind of edible game.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:27 AM

Interesting thread because my surname comes from the old English for "hunter of the hare" and it was Normanized to Lievre...

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:31 AM

Cows=bovine=boeuf

Sheep=ovine=oeuf

Therefore, eggs are produced by sheep. Which is why they didn't eat lamb. Like Liz said.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:12 AM

We do still have a sheep-related French-derived word: "mutton."

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM

Liz, did they also produce wool from the rams (maybe after castrating to make them more amenable)? If not, they could have eaten the young male lambs without waste.

With regard to eggs form sheep, it reminds me of the geese that were thought to hatch out of barnacles and therefore counted as fish - so you were allowed to eat them on Fridays.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:20 AM

Venison literally means 'meat killed in the chase, so now would only really cover deer, but previously could have covered boar as well.

Again, chicken is the Germanic word, and nornally meant the animal, whilst poultry, the latin root one, meant the food.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Splott Man
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:49 AM

We Brits used to eat mutton until some time in the last 100 years (my history is awful) when there was a scandal involving the sale of said meat. Since then "mutton" has had a bad name in the UK and we now eat lamb, a choice too recent for a Norman name.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

whethers (castrated male sheep) were indeed used for wool. Whethers were also usually the first ones eaten as mutton; since they didn't produce lambs.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

why do we call an aubergine an eggplant.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:11 AM

because many of the varieties orginally grown were about the size and shape of an egg.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Thanks MMario ... but I must say I like 'aubergine' much better. It sounds very melodic ... nice word.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

Lamb referred to as food- Venner, 1620: Lambe of two or three months old is the best. OED

I still remember a BOAC trans-Atlantic flight years ago (1960's?) on which they served mutton. The stench made my wife ill (Don't know what they called it but if they called it 'lamb,' they were some years off).

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

MMario, I do believe that a castrated sheep is a wether. Or, at least, that is what a neutered goat is called.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM

allluys prufred. (weather,wether,whether - homonyms give me problems)

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:36 AM

Is a homonym a gay horse out of Gulliver's Travels?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:20 PM

I used to buy mutton in Exeter in the 1960s but I haven't seen it for sale since.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM

Mutton really lost it's standing in WWII, when there wasn't the time to worry about what condition the animals were in before slaughter. For good mutton, you have to condition the animals up before slaughter.
    Lamb doesn't have the same quality issues, as the meat hasn't had time to become tough etc.

You can get mutton, but it's not that common. It's very good in curries, as the tougher meat means you can have a longer, slower cook than you can with lamb, and the flavours are much better all round...

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM

Mutton renaissance (as supported by the Prince of Wales...)

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:27 AM

wether- a male sheep, esp. a castrated one. OED.
This is one of those words that go way, way back- c. 890 acc. to a quote in the OED.

Before someone quotes the rest of the write-up in the OED, it has acquired other meanings, including the 'fleece obtained from the second or any subsequent shearing of a sheep. Also a eunuch or castrato. Etc. etc.

(all the spellings given by MMario have been used).

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

See? I didn't spell it wrong , I just spelled it for a different time period!

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Arnie
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:05 AM

Talking of ancient sheep names, I took a tour of the Theakstons brewery in N. Yorkshire a few years ago and was introduced to a beer called Riggwelter. The name is a Yorkshire term for a pregnant ewe that has fallen over and can't get up again - much the same effect caused by drinking too much of the stuff. However, I was told that the word dates back to Viking times and is one of those old dialect words that sadly are dying out in favour of Estuarine English. Can any Norse specialists verify this?? Bit of thread drift from my original query I suppose, but fascinating stuff all the same.....

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM

from "Whatdoesthatmean.com"

When a sheep is on its back and cannot turn over it is said to be riggwelted, or rigged. A person who cannot get up may also say that they are riggwelted or rigged.

Usage:
"I can't get up, I'm riggwelted." "That sheep's rigged."

Explanation:
From the Old Norse "rygg" meaning shoulder and "velte" meaning to overturn.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:25 AM

Someone (I'm too lazy to go back and check who it was) told us that "venison" referred to "any kind of deer". Correct, but it doesn't quite say what it seems to.

"Deer" in times past referred to any wild animal. In fact, in one of Shakespeare's plays it refers to "Rats and mice and such small deer."

Only in more recent times did "deer" come to mean Bambi's relatives.

"Venison" in those times referred to the meat of any game animal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

yes, technically bear meat is venison.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:47 AM

Mutton = french Mouton (like the famous publisher in La Haye)

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

Mutton- some disagreement among scholars as to origin. A possibility is Latin 'mutilus' in the sense of deprived of horns, or castrated.

The French derivation- Motoun appeared in English print c. 1290 (listed with boef, swannes, porc, hennes and craunes). Most scholars follow the OF moton-molton-motoun trail, ending with mutton (Mod. Fr. mouton also from moton).

An expression still heard, 'as dead as mutton', seems to have originated in England, in an article on hunting by Col. Hawkes (1893).

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Arnie
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:20 AM

MMario - thanks for explanation of the origins of Riggwelter, and also for putting me onto the Whatdoesthatmean.com website which is right up my street.

Arnie

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM

From the website of Coquinaria.nl.

"A capon is a castrated cock. It was customary to castrate male animals to fatten them up. Animals of the female sex could be productive in other ways: reproduction, production of eggs or milk. Moreover, the meat from female animals contains a higher percentage of fat and was tastier. The males have limited use (gentlemen, don't take this personally!), apart from their procreational function they can serve either as beast of burden or supplier of second-rate meat. A castrated animal would have a higher percentage of fat, resulting in tastier meat.
Cocks were castrated ever since chickens are held as domestic animals. The capon is larger than the cock, about the size of a goose. However, capons have more meat than geese, because a goose has rather heavy bones. The taste of capon is not so spectacularly different from chicken that you have to go looking for a castrated cock, just buy a free-range poularde (a chicken that weighs 1.5 to 2 kilo [3.3 to 4.4 lbs] and is six to eight months old). "

I suspect capon is another French origin word... but here's a little bit of linguistic fun...

"Cock" is the original name for the male, still in use in parts of the English-speaking world, but largely dropped by North Americans and Australians. According to H. L. Mencken's The American Language, the euphemism "rooster" took precedence over "cock" in the United States during the Victorian era (and parts of the bird were similarly renamed, such as the "drumstick" for "leg") to avoid ostensibly sexually provocative language ("cock" is a coarse slang term for the penis). However, "cocky", another American slang adjective meaning "arrogant" and derived from the "proud" strutting walk of the bird, is still considered acceptable in polite conversation.

LTS.. who is going to have a nice vegetarian lunch soon...

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:17 AM

I often wondered how to castrate a cock, as birds' testes are internal. I wish I hadn't decided to find out: I'll take the vegetarian option, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:20 AM

So that's one nut roast coming up then....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:13 AM

Liz, what do you have against the innocent keyboards of Mudcatters?
You cause them to be attacked with hot coffee as someone ses your post far too often.....

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST,Explorer
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

Sorry my mistake thought this thread was about meat in Lingerie. Will go eslewhere then, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: David C. Carter
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:09 AM

I use Mutton to make Cous Cous,or Curry.
You get a far richer juice.
A little Roquefort cheese,added to the juice of a cous cous is also handy!

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:23 AM

the juice of a cous cous? isn't it a bit hard to squeeze cous cous for juice? They are awfully tiny, and they've been dried as part of the process of making them.
How many cous cous does one have to squeeze in order to get enough juice to taste?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: David C. Carter
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:27 AM

You've never squeezed cous cous!You haven't lived!

Cheers
D

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:19 AM

Now, this thread is interesting AND fun, sort'a like LTS's BBQ one.

Think I shall never ever visit Katrinagate again.

(sorry I had to sully this thread with that comment)

Have a good day, all, and nite-nite to the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Helen
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:42 PM

From: Q - PM
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 02:04 PM

The French derivation- Motoun appeared in English print c. 1290 (listed with boef, swannes, porc, hennes and craunes). Most scholars follow the OF moton-molton-motoun trail, ending with mutton (Mod. Fr. mouton also from moton)."

The Detroit derivation - Motown appeared in Detroit, Michigan in 1959.   "Motown" was short for "motor town," because of Detroit's importance as the most important automobile manufacturing center in the world. Often accompanied by a fruit drink or something. Called a "Berry Gordy".    :-)

(http://www.bookrags.com/history/popculture/motown-bbbb-04/)

Sorry!
Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:51 PM

In the illustrations provided above on caponization, do they put the cotton balls in after they take out the real ones? Enquiring minds want to know... maybe...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:37 AM

Amos... isn't it time you reveiwed your medication mate?

But it would explain why newly hatched chicks are so fluffy...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Gurney
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:14 AM

And just to add confusion to chicken-stuff: In Oz and Godzone a Cocky is a farmer. Cocky = cockatoo-farmer, as in "Grand crop of cockatoos you've got in that newly-seeded paddock, Phil! Heh-heh-heh."

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST,Ram-bo
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:00 AM

Am I missin' somethin' here...In the U/Kingdom, 'Lamb' is the term used for all meat from the sheep not just from lambs! Is that statement correct or incorrect? If it is incorrect then where do they get the huge lambs that provide the lamb shank in my local supermarket? or the very large lamb chops and leg steaks?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM

But in EC-speak it is neither lamb nor mutton: it is all officially "Sheep Meat"

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

In one of Walter Scott's novels, a character explains that food on the table takes the French form while the animals in the field take the German form i.e. beef from the French boeuf but cow from the German Kuh etcetera. The English in the 9th, 10th centuries, being Anglo Saxon, their language as basically German as there was no French influence until after the Norman conquest.
Lamb comes from the German Lamm. Lamb meat comes from sheep which are under two years old although I'm not exactly sure of the age but mutton is difficult to buy as basically all 'sheep meat'in the shops is called lamb.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Helen
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:43 PM

Coincidentally, last night's Iron Chef, on Oz tv, had the theme ingredient of lamb. They said that to be called lamb it had to be under one year old - but this is the gourmet kitchen stadium definition and may not apply to us everyday folks.

If you haven't seen Iron Chef, it's a hoot. It's the Ironman/Gladiators, japanese kitchen style. Three or four kitchen champions called Iron Chefs and one challenger per show who chooses one of the Iron Chefs to do battle with. The brains behind the show, Chairman Kaga, then reveals the theme ingredient and "bang a gong, we are ON!" They then have one hour to cook their dishes and then there is a tasting panel which scores their results and one is declared the winner.

The only thing is that the theme ingredient is often seafood which doesn't interest me. Last night there were two programmes shown and the first one had the theme of onions.   Sometimes it is a vegetable or fruit, or milk, or cheese, or meat.

I've been watching it for a couple of years now and it is funny, because of the Ironman/Gladiators idea, but it is serious because of the chefs and their styles of cooking and ideas for theme ingredients.

Last night the chefs made mustard crusted rack of lamb, lamb en brioche, and baked French style lamb pizza, etc, but nothing specifically japanese.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 08:31 PM

What is the english for zucchini? And for the french courgette?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Helen
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM

Mrrzy,

Zucchini is a small summer squash or marrow, but I have never heard it called anything other than zucchini or courgette. It became well known in Oz probably through the Italian influence on Oz cuisine. I had never heard of it until the mid-70's - coming from a true-blue Aussie home with meat-&-3-veg and pudding every night at dinner. (I remember in the late 60's when Mum had bought a pre-mix packet to make pizza - that was a failed experiment on behalf of the manufacturers. Not the nicest meal I ever ate.   I never had store-bought pizza until about 1973.)

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 03:19 PM

There have been multiple mentions of "motoun", saying or implying that it's French.

Actually the French is "mouton", with the U in the first syllable. On the other hand, "motoun" is Old English--no doubt from what the Norman overlords were saying.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 04:46 PM

Dave, 'mouton' is modern French. Old French is 'moton', occasionally 'molton'.
'Mutton' seems to be 15th c. (other spellings preceded it).

Some authorities suggest Latin, rather than French, as the starting point for the word- medieval Latin multo, multon, of Celtic origin

What is legally lamb in the U. S. A. and Canada? The U. S. Dept. Agriculture website is too filled with bumff (to use English Civil Service slang coinage for stuff that takes forever to read) to find the answer.

Canada is a little better(?). LAMB "means the meat derived from a dressed carcass of an ovine animal that meets the maturity characteristics prescribed in the Livestock Carcass Grading Regulations.
NOTE: meat derived from a dressed carcass of an ovine animal which does not meet the specifications prescribed for LAMB shall be referred to as MUTTON.
Now all I have to do is find those regulations, right? Typing "Livestock Carcass Grading Regulations" into their search box
netted 71695 entries. To blazes with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 10:00 PM

The Settlement Cookbook defines:

Lamb is the meat of a the sheep under 1 year of age. It is firm-textured but tender, pink to dark red in color, with a considerable amount of firm white fat. Most lamb is marketed when it is about 6 to 8 months old. Mutton comes from sheep over 1 year of age. Its texture is softer and its flavor is distinctly stronger than that of lamb. Mutton is less popular in this country (the U.S.) and thus less widely available than lamb. Where it is sold in any substantial quantity, as in England, it is actually cheaper than lamb.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:42 PM

Everyone has his own definition of lamb, such as the one given above. I am trying to find the legal definition, if there is one, both in Canada, and the U. S. A.

Here in Alberta, we have what we call spring lamb- born in early spring, killed in about October, thus about 7 months on the average. But what are the government regulations?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:51 PM

It's New Zealand, but I'll keep lookin'.

For Your Information: F2-03 New Zealand Definition - Lamb
New Zealand Food Safety Authority
Date: 28 February 2003
From: Steven Ainsworth, Programme Manager (Market Access)

"Lamb" definition - "A sheep less than 12 months of age or which does not have any permanent incisors in wear"

This definition allows sheep older than 12 months of age to be slaughtered as lambs if there are no permanent incisors are in wear.
This definition also allows for sheep with permanent incisors in wear to be slaughtered as lambs if it can be verified that the sheep are less than 12 months of age. Verification would be expected to be traced back to evidence that can unequivocally substantiates the age.
This definition of lamb is consistent with the Meat New Zealand definition and is considered a truthful definition to support the use of the term "lamb". Overseas market access requirements (OMARs) may indicate alternative definitions for products sent to those markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 11:59 PM

OK. I give up. However,

[e-mail]

He is the director of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. I trust he'll know.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:05 AM

Here is the Canadian (found at Canadian Justice Website after being directed there by Canada Agriculture).

Lamb- fewer than two permanent incisors
Mutton- two or more permanent incisors (approx. one year of age, but can be earlier, can be later- depends on the particular animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:09 AM

Jaysus. No wonder I can't figure out how to do a tax return.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:11 AM

So if a guy took a five-year-old sheep and yanked all but one incisor it would then be a lamb. Got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:12 AM

If anyone sees a shepherd taking his flock to a dentist, . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:53 AM

The inspector applying the Livestock Carcass Grading Regulations makes the determination. Of the eight milk teeth in a lamb, when two are replaced by incisors, then the critter becomes mutton-   OH, forget it!

I imagine the inspector just sits back, drinks his coffee (or) and lets the butchers do an eeny, meeny miney ---

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:55 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:57 AM

Just to confuse matters, in Australia there is a third category of sheepmeat, called hogget. I always understood it to be older than lamb but younger than mutton. About 20-30 years ago there was a lot of hogget in the butcher's shops - at a certain time of year there would be spring lamb, which was very young, and the meat which had been lamb the week before became hogget. Then for the next year the lamb got older and older until the next cutoff date when it became hogget etc etc. Of course the hogget was cheaper. We actually preferred hogget because it was tastier but still tender enough to grill. I suppose after a year of being hogget, it became mutton, but I'm not sure. Unfortunately you rarely see hogget now - or at least, anything described as hogget.

When I started to look up lamb, hogget and mutton for definitions, I discovered it's not as simple as I thought it was - and this is just in Australia! It's all to do with teeth, and there are mandatory categories and optional categories - for instance here: Meat Terminology.

I gather also from looking at other sites that a couple of years ago there was a move from farmers to try and get categories changed because with the drought, sheep were getting their teeth at a younger age. So all very complicated!

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:02 AM

More- DRESSED LAMB CARCASS: "means the carcass of a lamb from which the skin, head and feet at the carpal and tarsal joints have been removed and the carcass has been eviscerated."

FRONT HALF- "means the anterior portion of the DRESSED LAMB CARCASS which is separated from the HIND HALF by a cut following the natural curvature between the eleventh (11th) and twelfth (12th) rib."

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:05 AM

But if the skin of the lamb has been removed, then it would be a dressed undressd (or undressed dressed) carcass. And what would Charles have to say about all this I ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:10 AM

If where the lamb lives is called Lamb's quarters, then they actually inhabit a species of the goosefoot plant. There is NO end to this confusion, is there?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: AKS
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:21 AM

Braxie ham>/i>, as I have read somewhere, has its place among lamb etc:-) What is the etymology there, then?

AKS

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:07 AM

We had a nice simple linguistic problem, and then Goverment regulations and definitions overcomplicate things. How surprising...

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: MMario
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM

In the US the legal definition between "lamb" and "mutton" depends on the calcification of certain leg joints/bones. This normally occurs (depending on the breed of sheep and to some extent on the individual) at more then 12 months but less then 24 months of age. So some people say "lamb" is anything less then 2 years old, others take the "lamb is anything less then 1 year old" route - and the butchers and meat inspecters don't care how old the sheep is if the ljoint is still cartaligenous.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:12 AM

braxie (from the argot of the UK travelling people, also "braxy") putrid. In the well-known "Tramps and Hawkers", a "braxie ham" was any type of meat taken from a long-dead animal and purified to some extent by packing it in salt.
Taken from The Music Encyclopaedia

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM

From the Concise Scots Dictionary
braxy: breakshugh, a fatal intestinal disease of sheep: the salted flesh of a sheep that has died of Braxy: braxy bree(soup) made from a braxy sheep, braxy ham: the ham of a braxy sheep.
(must taste lovely!)

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 11:22 AM

Canadian- All I want for Cris-muth are my two front teeth.

New Zealand lamb is sold here in packaged cuts, the legs being popular since they are cheaper than the local Alberta spring lamb legs by about 1/3.
Which raises the question (if you ain't too fed up by now to ask), what legally defines a lamb in New Zealand?

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 12:58 PM

Which raises the question (if you ain't too fed up by now to ask), what legally defines a lamb in New Zealand?

Anything too young for the yokels to sleep with, of course. There are standards!


I'll get my (sheepskin) coat....

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: AKS
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:00 AM

re braxie ham: Do I hear the Viking tongue here in the background: breakshugh; (Swe) bräka /breh-ka/ 'to bleat' sjuk /shook/ 'ill, sick' ;-)!?!

I'd guess it's older than lamb anyway...

AKS

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Arnie
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:27 PM

Well, having ploughed through this little lot, I rather like the word 'hogget' that JennyO mentions above. It sounds like another good old Yorkshire word, but obviously isn't. Getting back to the original linguistic theme, any entries for the origins of this or was it simply made up by a bored 'Cocky' one night in the outback??

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

"Which raises the question (if you ain't too fed up by now to ask), what legally defines a lamb in New Zealand?"

It's posted above, Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:10 PM

Back in the 1980s at the Bracknell festival the Albion Band dance included a performance by the 'Albionnettes'. At the final dance, with the Hog's Back Band, there was a performance by Pilgrim Morris, introduced as the 'Hoguettes'.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:25 PM

A hog, hogg, hoggie is a young sheep before its first shearing. Robert Burns has a poem calle 'My Hoggie'.

Subject: RE: BS: Meat query - one for the linguists
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:20 PM

The OED defines a hogget as a yearling sheep- or- a yearling colt.

It seems that in the 19th c., hogget wool was sought after as superior to the other long wools. Jenny O, any distinction now other than lambswool and sheep wool?

Yes, Peace, one of the reasons given to greenhorns in cattle country as to why to avoid sheepherders.