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BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
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Subject: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM May we discuss the expressions and misuses of words we most hate? This thought is partly inspired by the recent Tone Def Leppard misuse of the verb "to lay" in stead of the verb "to lie". The main trigger, however, is the thread about a church school banning "Imagine" (the Lennon song) as "inappropriate". How I hate the present-day misuses of that word. Use of the word usually betokens some act that will be decided by the politically correct to have extreme adverse consequences for the one accused - yet it fails to specify the act or the reason for a prohibition of the act in any way that is sufficient to permit the alleged wrongdoer either to know why what he said or did was wrong or to enable him to defend himself. Truly it is a dreadful example of management-speak. Next on my list of hates is "hopefully", as today misused. The word is an adverb. The correct use is as in the sentence "to travel hopefully is better than to arrive". It does not mean "I hope" or "it is to be hoped". Third might well be the use of "lay" for "lie". Fourth I nominate the use of "alternative" for "choice" when there are more than two possible choices. There can only be two alternatives, otherwise they cannot be alternate to each other. Fifth, may I figuratively excoriate split infinitives, at least in English? I understand that they are acceptable in American. Over to other pedants.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Liz the Squeak Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:33 AM Surely there would only be one item and one alternative? LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:36 AM Which school? Where? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: John MacKenzie Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM Well Richard while I cringe at people who say they are going to repeat something again, and those who qualify the word unique by adding totally or very to it. There's not much one can do about it. When I hear someone say actually 5 times in the same sentence, or reply 'absolutely' to a question [absolutely what?], it's like deja vu all over again. Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM "I seen it." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:42 AM Shitfire Bub.......Y'all pretty pissed off aintcha? What with ya' exorciatin' and feeling betokened and all, it must be really rougher than a dog shittin' green to get yourself all done with the readin around hereabouts. And as far as the lay and lie I actually can't figure your point much. See, if a guy was to lie about a lay to his wife to stay outta' trouble like Bill Clinton did when he got his hat blown then I don't see any problem. Whatcha' oughta' do is to eat up a bran muffin and drop a big load then see if you're still exorciatin' and betokening. Good luck and my hopeful best to you hopefully in your tape job that is hopefully gettin' them infinitives what's split put back together again. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:50 AM I betoken on this here spliff . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM It's been suggested that "hopefully" (in the sense "I hope") entered English via the USA, from German- speakers who have their useful word "hoffentlich". It's been around a long time, and I of to think it could of been naturalised by now, and anyway we haven't got another word for it, only roundabout phrases. 'Actually' is just an 'er, um', back in the 80s the politicos used 'basically' in the same way. I prefer the South African 'eh?'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:07 AM Excellent article about the split infinitive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Ernest Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:29 AM Richard, may we add the word "racist" to your list? I have often seen it used to describe something that is discriminating against someone without any connection to the colour of someone`s skin. Regards Ernest |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM The concept of 'race' goes beyond skin colour. The Ashkenazy Jews, Slavs and other European Untermenschen shared skin colour with their persecutors. Though if we could get a taboo established on ethnic or cultural discrimination as well, that would be no bad thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Ernest Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:34 AM Paul, I agree. I was just critizising the word rasism when some other kind of discrimination is meant. Best Ernest |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: BuckMulligan Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:52 AM As Peace points out with his link, the split infinitive is a will-o-the-wisp of no real linguistic power. Ninety percent of all unsplit infinitives achieve nothing other than calling attention to the speaker's diction; "Hey, look at me I recognized an infinitive and self-consciously constructed a phrase that sounds funny so you'll notice that I didn't split it." "Hopefully" in the sense you cite is in fact a legitimate usage. My data to attest to this is that lots of speakers of modern English use it, and usage is king. Languages are organic, living things that follow their own rules, one of which is, well, usage is king, and when a word, phrase, or construction is used to mean something often enough, then that's what becomes "standard." There is no such thing as "correct" in language, only "standard." That said, I do agree about qualifying absolutes. But sooner or later "somewhat unique" will be "standard" for "unusual." Nuthin we can do about it except rail against the tide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Dáithí Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:20 AM At one point we used to "press" people to do something; then we "pressured" them. Now we "pressurise"them! Really!?? Add to your "unique" list - comprehensive.Not to be used with a comparative or superlative, surely? Either it's comprehensive, or it isn't. And what about "alternate" and "alternative"? Seem to mean the same thing in US English, but not in British English. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Becca72 Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:24 AM One of my biggest irritants is " I could care less". When then, sir, you must care some in order to care less... I also hate "would of" "could of" and "should of"...HAVE HAVE HAVE!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Metchosin Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM I find I really need a bran muffin when I hear the term "healthy food", instead of "healthful food". |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Emmells Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:35 AM Oooh. Here we go... My most hated at the moment is turning a noun into a verb, usually heard on TV cookery shows (a la Jamie 'I'm a Pukka Geezer' Oliver'): 'then fridge it for an hour'. NO! NO NO NO. You can refrigerate something for an hour, or you can put it IN the fridge for an hour. You can even chill it, if you want a one-syllabled option. But you CANNOT 'fridge' something. Grr. I've also heard 'Oven it', which sent my blood pressure through the roof within seconds. Think I should get out more... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Metchosin Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:54 AM All the fuel transport trucks around here, now have the word "Flammable" instead of "Inflammable" emblazoned on their tanks. It seems some were confused and thought "inflammable" meant that it was fire proof............good idea.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Emmells Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:56 AM Well that's a tricky one Metchosin, as according to my dictionary (the OED), the definition of flammable = inflammable! Ummm. Confused now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: MMario Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:59 AM sory Richard, Merriam-Webster disagrees with you: Main Entry: hope·ful·ly Pronunciation: 'hOp-f&-lE Function: adverb 1 : in a hopeful manner 2 : it is hoped : I hope : we hope usage In the 1960s the second sense of hopefully, which dates to the early 18th century and had been in fairly widespread use since at least the 1930s, underwent a surge in popularity. A surge of criticism followed in reaction, but the criticism took no account of the grammar of adverbs. Hopefully in its second sense is a member of a class of adverbs known as disjuncts. Disjuncts serve as a means by which the author or speaker can comment directly to the reader or hearer usually on the content of the sentence to which they are attached. Many other adverbs (as interestingly, frankly, clearly, luckily, unfortunately) are similarly used; most are so ordinary as to excite no comment or interest whatsoever. The second sense of hopefully is entirely standard. I find the juxtaposition of "hopefully" and "inappropriate" intrigueing - as when I attend a pub sing the songs will hopefully be inappropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM This all sounds like the exact same thing to me. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: bfdk Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM Michael Swan agrees with Webster on the use of "hopefully": Hopefully has two meanings. One is similar to "full of hope", "hoping". She sat there waiting hopefully for the phone to ring. The other meaning (a much newer one) is similar to "it is to be hoped that" - it shows the speaker's attitude to what he is saying. Hopefully, inflation has started to drop. Some people consider the second use "incorrect". End of quote. Best wishes, Bente |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:17 AM The second use is incorrect. Thank you for the support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: SINSULL Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM "To boldly go where no man has gone before!" I scream in pain every time I hear it! AAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Metchosin Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:24 AM Sorry Emmells, I drifted slightly off topic and didn't mean to imply that "flammable" was an incorrect word. I was just noting that at one time "inflammable" was the word most often used and also, readily understood. As that does not seem to be the case anymore, it would seem that it is probably wiser to use the other word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: red max Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM "One of my biggest irritants is 'I could care less'. When then, sir, you must care some in order to care less" I'm glad someone mentioned this! Another phrase that springs to mind is "the rest, as they say, is history". Who are "they"? Hardly anyone says "the rest is history", they alway shove "...as they say..." into the middle. Actually, instead of moaning about it, I'm just going to punch the next person who says it. Harumph! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: gnomad Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM "Enormity": does not speak of magnitude, but of wickedness. "Literally": taking the primary meaning of a word, not a metaphoric or exagerated one. "One of the only..." No: can be the only, or one of a number, but not some half-assed halfway measure. You've got me going now, better stop before something bursts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: MMario Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:44 AM "One of my biggest irritants is 'I could care less'. When then, sir, you must care some in order to care less" usually said with an implied "As if"; maiking it's meaning "As if I could care less"; which I find far preferable to the "As if.." used as a declarative sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:53 AM I think I started hearing the word "inappropriate" being used—ahem!—inappropriately back in the 1980's when I was doing volunteer work for a social service agency—the type of place that is populated by psychologists, social workers, and their clients—as well as amateur "helpers." (I was in the last group.) The dilemma you have when you work in a place like that, is that people who have done terrible things (drug abuse, child abuse, spouse abuse, etc.) are coming to you for help, so they can (hopefully!) quit doing them. If you react with obvious horror and disgust, especially before you gain the clients' trust, you will drive them away, and you'll never be able to help them. So you evolve an ethic that says you must suspend or moderate judgment, at least temporarily, at least about anything the client did before he entered your door. Imagine this dialogue, in a group therapy or "support group" session: CLIENT #1: …and after that, they put my daughter in foster care. CLIENT #2: Jeez! That's disgusting. Guys like you ought to be castrated! FACILITATOR: Now, now. We don't make value judgments here. That remark was inappropriate. OK, I made up that dialogue. Maybe a real therapist would have said it with more finesse. The irony is, people make value judgments all the time. You can't help it. To call a remark "inappropriate" is itself a value judgment. I think "inappropriate" became popular because it's a relatively mild word. It's a lot less likely to cause offense than "shut up!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: SINSULL Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:09 AM It's neither here nor there...well then it ain't! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: dianavan Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM Whatever... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Wesley S Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM There are two many ways too use the word "to" incorrectly. But "y'all" has become a part of my vocabulary. And if all y'all don't like it - tough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: clueless don Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:46 AM It is important to not split infinitives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:51 AM Hopefully Richard has now eaten a bran muffin and gottten all exorciated cuz his ass is wrong on hopefully. Now mindja' I didn't say that HE was wrong......just his ass. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: harpmolly Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:02 PM I actually overheard myself use the word "irregardless" the other day, and was completely horrified. Aaaaahhh! The pod people have invaded my brain! Scrub it out with soap! (On the other hand, at least in a lot of North American circles, the much more grammatically correct "irrespective" is likely to get you a raised eyebrow and a blank look...or a "Weeelll, aren't *we* fancypants?" expression.) And then there's "ATM machine." Eurrrgh. Molly |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:06 PM I would take acception to the preceeding, but I except that some people do have difficultie's with certain words, so I am authoring this little post to make them feel more better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Georgiansilver Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:08 PM Becca 72. I have to agree with you....We all shortened Could have, would have and should have to could've, would've and should've and somehow the young people (and some of the older ones) have made them could of, would of and should of....why can't they talk like what I do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: dianavan Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:15 PM Jim Dixon - In schools, the term 'inappropriate' has replaced 'bad' to describe a student's anti-social behaviour. Its not always possible to go into great detail about why the behaviour is unacceptable but at the same time you need to tell the student to 'knock it off' in a way that does not indicate that the student is a 'bad' person. It took me awhile to get used to it but students seem to know that while it may be appropriate behaviour at home or with peers, it is inappropriate classroom behaviour. Given the time, a teacher can go into more detail and certainly will if the behaviour persists but as an 'off-the-cuff-comment' it seems to do the trick. At least its better than telling a student that the behaviour is 'bad'. What's the alternative? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: RangerSteve Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM My candidate for worst phrast ever: At this point in time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Dazbo Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:06 PM Richard, Shouldn't that be Thirdly,; Fourthly,; Fifthly)? A 'two time' winner gets my goat. It's TWO TIMES or TWICE!!! IIRC the first English Grammar book to have a go at split infinitives actually didn't prohibit them it just advised caution in their useage. In fact, I understand that many of these prohibitions in English Grammar were originally just guidelines and not hard and fast rules. Hopefully, Richard, you'll understand that "hopefully" is used correctly in this sentence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM Well, my pet peeve about language is police (and reporters) who continue to refer to criminals as 'suspects' long after they have been caught and even have confessed. Yes, I know it's usually a legal thing...just in case some clever lawyer wants to clutch at the thread of 'prejudicial publicity', but I STILL roll my eyes at 'suspect' when they are caught on video with the meat cleaver in their hand! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM Hey Bill....."Suspects" seems to have been replaced with "Persons of Interest." I guess criminals are now classed either by their entertainment value or their savings account. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM PIN & VIN numbers-- the N means "number"! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Jim Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:14 PM Ranger Steve - You can blame,"at this point in time" on John Dean during the Watergate Hearings. Prior to that, most people said either,"at this time" or "at this point". A grammatical error that makes me shudder, since it is used by supposedly well-educated people is,"When you've completed the questionaire give it to John or I." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Jim Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM Has anyone mentioned the word "nucular" being used instead of "nuclear". George Dubya is guilty of this, but he's not the only one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Phil Cooper Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM My phrase pet peeve is writers using comprise, instead of compose. I have often seen a sentence where one thing is "comprised of" whatever it is, it's comprised of. The proper use would be "composed of." As an example: a pie if composed of pieces, but pieces comprise the pie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM I have always loved Churchill's remark to a writer in the technical affairs area of his War Ministry. The writer had been using convoluted English in a painful attempt to sound 'more' than he was. The guy had written words like, "When one utilises the chair, one should consider the ergonometrics to do with space availability and . . .". Churchill in terse, consise English said, "You are writing for mechanics. Be clear. This is a situation up with which I will no longer put!" And of course: "A preposition is a word one should never end a sentence with." Gotta love it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM To tack onto Metchosin's post about "Eat healthy food", I do not like commercials that tell people to "Eat healthy." Gawddammit, put the noun there or make it an adverb. Thank you for allowing me to 'get that off my chest'. I am going to the Nipples thread now . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: BuckMulligan Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM The way I heard the Churchill story, someone had corrected him for ending a sentence with a preposition. To which WC replied that it was "Arrant pedantry, up with which I will not put." A pal of mine once claimed that his (precocious) daughter once asked him "Daddy, what did you bring that book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM I was JUST reminded about the proclivity of many in the military these days to refer to a group of themselves as a 'contingency' rather than as a 'contingent'. (I think I mentioned this in another thread of this type) I have heard this 7-8 times and want to reach through the TV screen and shake them until their collective heads rattle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM Sorry but split infinitives were completely wrong in Latin. Nowt up with 'em in Salford English. In fact there is nowt wrong with split words and I would not be sur-f&*(ing-prised if split sylables came in sooner or later..;-) Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Keef Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:00 PM "Continue on" !!!!! Grrrr, gnashing of teeth. First noticed this horror about ten years ago, sadly it has now become accepted usage. Very inappropriate and hopefully it will become "unacceptable" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM Let me ask this: who else has noticed the 'almost' total decline of the phrase "you're welcome"? I listen to radio and TV interviews, and when the moderator thanks a guest for his participation, he seems to get only a parroted "thankew" back. It always seems awkward to me to hear, "Thank you, John." "Thank you" Occasionally, I will hear "thank you for inviting me", but I can only remember 2-3 times in ages hearing "you're welcome". Is it becoming archaic in our time? Do young folks even know it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM "The way I heard the Churchill story" I don't doubt you are right, Buck. My memory ain't what it used to be and never was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM The correct response to "Thank you" is "Not at all". DtG, in the land where there is no knowledge, nothing is known to be wrong. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is not a source of rectitude, however it may demonstrate innocence (note different usage, differntly punctuated, of "however"). The Churchill story was a Parliamentary exchange and is not correctly rendered. Comprised, however, may properly have the use of which complaint is made. The numeration I used was correct. The defenders of "inappropriate" as a non-judgemental expression fail to recognise that a man (or woman) accused ought to know exactly what the accusation comprises, and accordingly to be entitled and able to defend him (or her) self. Of course if the Blair goverment continues to run down legal aid (with which I do not deal) most will in practice be unable to defend their proper liberties. And, yes, I will also castigate or catechise those who say "myself" because they do not know whether to say "me" or "I". And, yes, I will defend this use of a conjunction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM "The Churchill story was a Parliamentary exchange and is not correctly rendered." I KNOW that. Sheesh . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: melodeonboy Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:11 PM Sorry to be so derivative, but I did enjoy the leader of the boy band in one of the Harry Enfield series who came out with "Er.. we write what we like, right?..and we like what we write, like, right?". I remember being in Blockbusters some time ago and hearing a lad*/oik* (delete as appropriate) presenting a Blockbusters card to the cashier and saying "It's like my mum's card", at which point I was seriously tempted to ask him whose card it actually was. Let us also not forget the wonderful column in Private Eye called Solutions. My latest experience of the misuse of the word "solutions" was in Sittingbourne Post Office where the envelopes on sale are now described as "mailing solutions"! Oh, before I forget, what about the silly slogan "Maidstone - great to visit, great to shop" as used by Maidstone Council. I'm sure I can visit Maidstone, having already done so umpteen times, but I'm not sure if I can shop Maidstone! Wouldn't the preposition "in" after the word "shop" make more sense, even if it sounds a little cumbersome? And let's not mention "logistics" or I'll really get on my soap box! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: BuckMulligan Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM Peace - so many Churchill stories, so little agreement, I have no idea what he really said, I just love the rhythm of "arrant pedantry ... put." and couldn't resist sharing it. My second favorite Churchill story, after, "Yes, but in the morning I'll be sober." Richard - there are many acceptable (and no "correct") responses to "Thank you." "Not at all" is certainly one of them, as are "You're welcome" and "My pleasure" and "Think nothing of it." Soon, "No problem" will also be "standard." (But it will never be "Received.") |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:39 PM Did you ever hear the exchange between Churchill and a member of the conSTABulary? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:37 PM Richard-- On misuse of "hopefully": 1) I agree with you. 2) We've lost. When it starts being printed as acceptable in a dictionary of even slight repute--I think Miriam-Webster makes the cut--the battle is over. We've been outflanked (and/or cut down by "friendly fire".) You would think a dictonary would have standards. But in fact, as noted by other posters, it often reflects usage. The objectionable definition of "hopefully" is now part of the language. I think if we can just hang on at some other outposts--such as the use of "affect" vs "effect", we'll be doing well. "Lay' vs "lie" is another under heavy bombardment--but we should be able to hold out there for a few more generations. Of course the problem is we'll never get any reinforcements--and we're facing an onslaught of bad usage from places like the Net. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM "dictionary" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM i no |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:49 PM English is a very complicated language. The spelling of the language makes little sense to people who do not have it as a first language, and then, sometimes it makes little sense to people who do. Through=oo sound Bough=ow sound Though=o sound Tough=uff sound Thought=aw sound I think there are about a dozen ways to make the 'ee' sound, and we still can't agree on how to pronounce the letter Z. Usage problems are many and varied. As you gents have pointed out, many of the battles are lost. Four hundred years ago telling a lady her hair was 'awful' was a nice compliment because it meant 'so beautiful it fills one with awe'. Today . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: harpmolly Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM Ok, I simply cannot resist . 5th comic strip down from the top (May 12, 2006). Tee hee. Molly |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Phil Cooper Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM Don't forget "guesstimate." Pick Guess or Estimate, not both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM That's another. A thing that's make me puke for years is this: "We thought you'd enjoy a new challenge." That is corporate shorthand for "We think you are the only diskhead here stupid enough to take this on." Sheesh . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:21 AM And, I meant to type dickhead. Dang! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: robomatic Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:32 AM I like: "nothing personal" when you hear it, it means "nothing, but..." (personal) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: s&r Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM Dictionaries usually have in their introduction some sort of disclaimer to the effect that a dictionary is descriptive not prescriptive. Similarly with guides to grammar. In various businesses that I have been employed, house styles are used. These are rules within the company to give consistency to publications and communications. Outside such situations there are no rules (in English): there are conventions within social groups which tend to act as markers for mutual recognition. But we all have pet hates. I don't mind ending a sentence with any word that makes sense, and I don't care about somebody's idea of what a split infinitive is or should be. WHY do people pronounce dissect to rhyme with bisect, and cervical with a long 'i'. And when did the French pronunciation for 'envelope' and the 'qu' sound become acceptable? Stu |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM UMBILICAL umBILLical umbilLIKEal |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM I, personaly, think... Aaaarrrgggg! How else can you think apart from personaly? My favourite piece of gobledegook was 'parallel reciprocal mobility'. I never realy figured it out:-) Anyway, Richard, you have a lot to answer for. Being a lawyer that is;-) Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:21 AM By the way DtG, the correct grammatical term for inserting one word into another is tmesis (as in abso-blooming-lutely) Personally I am driven mad by the use of Was Like for Said |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Jim Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:06 AM Hey Wandering Minstrel, "was like" has gone out of fashion. Now it's: I'm all,"That's so hot!" then she's all,"No way, Nicole." Peace said,"And of course: 'A preposition is a word one should never end a sentence with.'" Lately I've noticed people saying,"We're going shopping. Do you want to come with." |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM "..The correct response to "Thank you" is "Not at all". ummmm...I may have heard that twice in my life. No doubt both UK and class specific. "Correct" is such an interesting idea. INcorrect is easier, but still fuzzy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: dianavan Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:16 PM I'm glad you said that, Bill. I was beginning to worry about my manners. I usually say, "you're welcome" and teach my students to say the same. "Not at all" sounds like something a victorian grandmother would say. It isn't used on the westcoast of N. America. Quite often a reply to thank-you is thank YOU which is O.K. in some circumstances. I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation. In fact, a favorite game my brother and I used to play was if one of us pronounced a word incorrectly or used it incorrectly, the other would 'innocently' ask, "What did you say?" When it was repeated, the other kid would laugh like hell. This was usually met with some kind of feeble defense and a very red face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Kara Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM Hopefully you won't find this post inappropriate, but language has to move with the and we are experiencing a sea change, in the worst possbile sceanereo every one will talk total nonsense... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM well! I'm glad 'polite' usage is still being taught somewhere...*smile*. There is SO much vernacular and slang (changing daily sometimes) that kids seem to treat 'standard' as hopelessly outdated by definition. There were reasons for the basic development of the language, and while it is not expected to be static, gratuitous warping at high speed just to 'be different' is downright silly! I doubt that 'hopefully' will ever be brought back into line, as the concept involved is a bit muddy...but I sure wish people would at least TRY to be aware of what they are saying and avoid the more extreme egregious eccentricities. (*grin*) |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,thurg Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM Okay - parse this, you hopeless pedants: "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:20 PM First, define folk music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Tootler Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM "Not at all" sounds like something a victorian grandmother would say. It isn't used on the westcoast of N. America. "Not at all" is quite a common response to "Thank you" in Britain, though what I think of as the American usage; "You're welcome" is creeping in. I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation. Buffet with the t pronounced is a dialect term for a stool (of the sit on type) in parts of Yorkshire. It is still in regular use in the part of Yorkshire my wife comes from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: dianavan Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM Maybe so, Tootler, but this woman was using buffet with a 't' to describe her purchase of dining room furniture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Jim Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM What about the changing meaning of words? The word "gay" has done a complete about face. Once meaning "happy", "gay blades" meant "swashibuckling pirate types" like Errol Flynn or Burt Lancaster. Later it came to be a politically correct term for homosexuals. In modern playground use it means "lame" as in,"That shirt is so gay." The word "reality" has come to mean putting people in artificial situations and manipulating their actions. Even the symbol "@" which used to mean "at $X a piece" has now become "at". Since it takes 2 fingers to type "@" or "at", why change it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM How about the word technically? What does it mean? I was just listening to public radio. They were discussing ethics, and I heard the panel members TWICE tell a caller, "Technically, you're breaking the law." I don't see what's technical about it. She was knowingly employing an illegal alien. That's against the law. The law is perfectly plain. What she was doing was perfectly plain. It doesn't require a technical explanation. So in what sense was her breaking the law "technical"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:50 PM Hopefully, the announcer will realize that technically he was being inappropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Ebbie Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM Here is One Correct Way to Use "Inappropriate" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Tootler Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM Dianavan I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation. After your response, I looked up "buffet" in a dictionary. One of the definitions was "A sideboard, esp. of the 16th or 17th century". It gave both pronunciations (with or without t) as alternatives, so your friend was actually correct - which did rather surprise me. It just goes to show... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: BuckMulligan Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM But.... There ain't no "correct!" There is standard, and nonstandard (but heard) and "WTF??? Never heard THAT!" Language, (of which usage is a small part) does its own thing, and it has its own rules - none of which have been devised by people. We only observe the way langugage works, we don't dictate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: BuckMulligan Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM But.... There ain't no "correct!" There is standard, and nonstandard (but heard) and "WTF??? Never heard THAT!" Language, (of which usage is a small part) does its own thing, and it has its own rules - none of which have been devised by people. We only observe the way langugage works, we don't dictate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: BuckMulligan Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM -- sigh -- |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: dianavan Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM Tootle - Thats very interesting. I had never heard buffet pronounced that way before. Makes me wonder if she learned her English in the British Colony of Hong Kong. I'm glad I didn't try to correct her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: HuwG Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM I believe "buffeTs" were leather coverings fitted to the clappers of church bells, to ring a muffled peal (e.g. for funerals). ... If a child climbs over a wall into a neighbour's garden without expression to retrieve a ball, then technically he or she is breaking the law; but it is unlikely that the Tactical Armed Response Unit would pounce on the offence. By custom, technically may have come to mean something like, "violating, or conforming, to the strict letter of something when it doesn't really matter". ... Dave the Gnome; was a split infinitive even possible in Latin ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Billy Weeks Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:41 AM And then there are those correctly used words and perfectly clear consructions that have ambiguity thrust upon them. Somebody remind me, please, who it was that asked: What is a woman's "now" and where is her "yet"? - (as in 'I wonder who's kissing her now' and 'she was shot by her lover and the bullet is in her yet'). |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:48 AM Dave the Gnome; was a split infinitive even possible in Latin ? I believe it was not - Which is why it has been frowned upon since. Or perhaps the abundance of split infinitives the fault of Yoda is? Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bizibod Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM To access something - AAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHHHH! I know , I know it's all to do with computers, but surely that doesn't mean that we no longer need to speak PROPERLY ! Bone bloody idle....chunter ,chunter, gnash,fume....... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Slag Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:17 PM I would be laying if I didn't say I was full of hope, hopefully. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Slag Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:36 PM @= commercial at sign How about " A mind is a terrible thing to waste." If you're gonna waste something it ought to be something terrible and what is more terrible than a mind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM IMO, a terrible mind is more terrible than a mind, However, a terribly terrible mind is even more terrible than just terrible. And the terribliest of all is a terribliest terribly terrible mind. It don't get much terriblier than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Slag Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:29 AM ooooo! That was horrybaubly turrible! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Dazbo Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:06 AM And what about: Get off of the bus. What's the point of the of in that sentence. Totally redundant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:37 AM Yes, the redundant "of" is maddening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM Regarding turning nouns into verbs: This is a very common way English has evolved over the years. There are many words now commonly accepted as verbs that were once used only as nouns. Consider this sentence from a short story by a British writer, from 1883:
Doesn't everybody use "interview" as a verb nowadays? Would anyone even question it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Kaleea Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM It's like, you know, soooooooooooooooooooooo ironical. Animals lay while People lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Slag Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:21 AM And virually all people lie about laying with animals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM Not the Scots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:14 AM This is a bit off topic, but not much. Does anyone have any idea where the locution "he went acrosT the street" or "he was acrosT the lake" originated, or why? I know it's fairly standard in certain areas--had a good friend from Poughkeepsie who said that--but I never did ask him about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM 'Daddy, what did you bring that book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?" I have heard that sentence before, and the person who quoted it claimed that it was a sentence that ended with 6 prepositions. Not so. A preposition requires an object. If I say "Bring the book up the stairs" then "up" is a preposition, "up the stairs" is a prepositional phrase, and "stairs" is the object of the preposition. But if I say only "Bring the book up" then "up" is an adverb indicating direction. The prohibition against prepositions at the end of a sentence is really a prohibition against splitting a prepositional phrase. I figure "for what" is a prepositional phrase that has been split in the original sentence. You could recast the sentence: "Daddy, for what did you bring up the book out of which I did not want to be read to?" I can't fix the final "to" without changing passive voice to active: "…out of which I did not want you to read to me." But that changes the meaning somewhat. (She doesn't want anyone to read to her out of that book!) When I learned diagramming sentences in school, I don't think we ever covered passive voice. By the way, is diagramming sentences still taught in schools? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Peace Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:19 PM A sentence can only end with one word and a ?, ! or. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Slag Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:36 PM Ahh, the never-present ellipses. Pre-positioning is what prepositions do and its hard to determine a pre-position when at the end of a sentence, they are! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: gnomad Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM The version I heard had the book being about down under [Australia], so "...read to about down under up for?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:32 PM Never-present ellipses? Please explain. I'd be more likely to complain about the over-present ellipses....................and question marks???????????? and exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Becca72 Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM Peace, I'm from Maine so I'm not qualified to answer that question. We take R's out of words and put them at the end of others... So I could get in the cah and go out for a soda'r. Or watch Law'r and Order. And my downeast family calls me Beccar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Slag Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:15 PM Elispses? I'm speechless!!!!!!!!!!! It's like---------You know?!Sometimes what isn't said speaks volumes. And sometimes not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:57 PM Geeziz folks. Do you realize how many award winning writers are guilty of many of your pet peeves? Keericed-on-a-fuckin'-crutch! Opt for a bran muffin and some Darvon. LMAO Oh well........Have fun anyway....... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:35 AM Here are some previous threads on the subject of English grammar, the English language, etc. Worst New Words in the 'English' Lang. 'Grammical' faux pas. Language Larfs. BS: Mangling the English Language BS: Mangling the English Language, Vol. II BS: 'Queen no longer speaks Queen's English' a little something for pedants and... (profanity) Grammar in Songs BS: Stop doing this right now! BS: Transatlantic Idioms BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn BS: Reasons why English is so hard - Part 2 For pedants only BS: Improper letter S endings! Arghhh! BS: STOP writing 'Who's'! Enough!!! Not Just for pedants BS: Junk English-(book review & commentary) BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon BS: American English Bl**p*rs BS: Meaningless phrases BS: English Grammar question BS: resolving common errors in English (USA BS: Commonly misspelled/mispronounced words NPR - degradation of language & music BS: English To English Dictionary BS: Affect and effect. BS Preaching to the choir ahead of what? BS: Do They Speak English There? BS: Shakespeare plays in Elizabethan English BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: SharonA Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:40 AM 'Way back at the top of this thread, Richard Bridges said, "...I nominate the use of 'alternative' for 'choice' when there are more than two possible choices. There can only be two alternatives, otherwise they cannot be alternate to each other." Liz the Squeak responded, "Surely there would only be one item and one alternative?" I agree with LTS. One phrase that drives me nuts is "the other alternative". Arrgh -- there is no "other" alternative -- there is only "the alternative"!!! One of the most aggregious grammatical errors is the pointless repetition of the word "is", as in: "The problem is, is that it doesn't work." I had an aunt who used to hate the phrase "pizza pie", since "pizza" means "pie." She used to ask the offender, "What's that? You want a pie pie? Would you like a pie pie??" |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: s&r Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:02 AM That's Amore Stu |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:10 AM Aggregious? Didn't you mean egregious? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: SharonA Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:33 AM Jim: I did indeed mean "egregious". Eeeeeeek, I've been spelling it incorrectly for years!!! Thanks for setting me straight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Jim Dixon Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:25 PM It happens to all of us. I remember once confusing etymology with entomology, until somebody set me straight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Sibelius Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:24 PM Another good Churchill one is the complaint he wrote in the margin of a report (I stand to be corrected on the historical details) on plans for the naval bombardment preceding D-Day: "Why must he write 'intensive' here? The correct word is 'intense'!" SharonA, I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard BBC radio presenters say "the things is, is that..." or "the real issue is, is..." Returning to the start of the thread, the entire management of the UK public sector would be unable to work (phew - almost said "operate"!) if they did not have "appropriate" and similar language-bashing and grammar-cutting devices among the tools of their grotesque trade. "In the event that the ongoing situation is unable to be resolved within appropriate timescales it is essential that an appropriate report comprising of [ouch, that really hurts] a detailed overview must be forwarded expeditiously in order that appropriate resources can be diarised to affect an appropriate solution". A senior personnel manager of my acquaintance once circulated a memo intended to placate staff who had been badly treated in a restructuring exercise. To indicate that some limited compromise may be possible, she wrote that "...there may be some judicious waving of the rules". It probably helps to be English to pick up the unintended play on words compounding the spelling error, but I laughed for a week over that one. Incidentally (which should probably be 'co-incidentally') the words to "Rule Britannia" assure us that "Britain never, never, never shall be..."(I forget the rest). Never, never? Or never ever? |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Sibelius Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM Yes I know, I know, I said "circulated" and I should have said "sent"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:53 PM *grin*...at least you KNEW the 'appropriate' word. Some will never get if it is 'waived' in their faces. It IS a complex, demanding, difficult language to use well. That should not excuse surrendering and giving in to the lowest common denominator. From what I saw the last 10 years as my son went through school, the educational system has abdicated it's responsibilites. |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: GUEST,Sibelius Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:04 PM I'm sure that's true Bill, especially where incorrect placing of apostrophes is concerned! |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Bill D Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:04 PM oh, CRAP!...*slinks away sullenly, mumbling* *subtle memo to self....EDIT!* |
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully' From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM Another offensive tautology is the English misuse of the Greek "hoi polloi". In Greek, "hoi", here, is the definite article. Most users of the expression say "the hoi polloi", and the definite article is accordingly repeated. |
