Real Ale v Lager

Subject: Real Ale v Lager
From: Jeff Beck
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:32 AM

Why do people who drink real ale walk (or stagger) around thinking they are superior to people who drink lager?

I'm posting this on a folk forum because there seems to be a huge % of real alers in that community.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:51 AM

Basement please

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 09:56 AM

Huuumm...definitions, please. Is this a case of transoceanic language usage? In the US, ale and lager refer to different types of brewing. That is, lager is a type of beer that is normally bottom-fermented and cold-cured and ale (sometimes claimed not to really be beer at all) is top-fermented. We usually don't use the term "real ale" at all, but generally understand it to be equivalent to what we call "craft-brewed," without such nasty additives as sugar, rice, preservatives and rat droppings.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:05 AM

you're lucky.. !!??

..Why do people who drink real ale & lager walk (or stagger) around thinking they are superior to people who drink cider !!!!?????


..and best not even mention supercillious pseudo-toff wine snobs!!!


all together now .. lets celebrate and sing out loud

the joys of Folk musics real natural pressed thirst quenching wassailing apple nectar..



"God gave PunkFolkRock 'n' Cider to you" [Argent/Kiss..arr: punkfolkrocker]

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:14 AM

Why do people ask silly rhetorical questions? The answer of course, is that most ale drinkers DON'T think themselves superior...they think ale is superior.

(for a reason....ales 'usually' has more distinctive flavors and variety than lager)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

Because Jeff, here in the UK unless you are lucky enough to get some traditionaly brewed lager all you get is that tasteless pap made in a factory [ not a brewery ] by the multinationals,sterilised to death and deliberately served ultra cold so you can't tell how shite it tastes, whereas ' real ale ' is [ generally ] produced in a brewery, using only natural ingrediants and delivered to your local pub still alive, ie the yeast still working.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:24 AM

Ale does NOT by definition have more distinctive flavor. There is a perception that it does, but I have had ales that taste like swill and lagers that are very complex.

As Eric has pointed out, lager has been closely associated with the multinational crap (can you say Budweiser?) and now everyone thinks that is how a lager is supposed to taste.   There are many craft brewers here in the U.S. that make very interesting lagers, and they are not meant to be served ice cold.

"Real Ale" has become another stereotyped term and those behind the folly are doing the same type of marketing that Budweiser does - create an image and "educate" the ignorant as to what they think they are drinking.

Ron

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 10:46 AM

I didn't SAY "by definition", Ron...I said 'usually'....and I stand by that. I, too, have had lagers with nice qualities, but they are harder to find, and I can count them on one hand. I'd need a whole page to list the 'good' ales with distinctive flavors that make me want more.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:03 AM

Real ale (cask-conditioned ale) has taste and needs careful cellaring to get the best out of it. The skills of the cellarer has an important effect on its final taste.

Lager generally means ice-cold, factory produced garbage, very much over-priced and sent to the pub in sealed metal dustbins. The cellarer has little effect on its taste since it is brewed to a lowest common denominater and offends no-one.

And yes there are some great lagers, generally brewed abroad and served in bottles. Mass produced lager is served cold to distinguish it from gnat's piss.

Much the same applies to Guinness but there are many myths about Guinness so it is hard to convince people it is no better than lager.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:04 AM

I understand what you said Bill, but if you read the tone of some of these posts as well as a general feeling that most(but not all) "real ale" drinkers have, the definition that they follow becomes apparent.

I could also give you a whole page of lagers, and I am sure that if we compare notes we could have a wonderful session!

The bottom line is, people tend to gravitate to a style that they enjoy. If you developed a taste for ale, you will probably find lagers not to your liking.

In reality, lagers are more difficult to brew. Temperature control becomes more of a factor, and off-tastes are easier to develop if not brewed correctly. As Eric pointed out, they are often served ultra-cold as a way of masking the taste, or lack of.

The glorious thing about beer is that is complex, more complex then wine. With wine you crush grapes and sit back and let the fermenting begin. Beer involves add the precise amount of grains and hops and then maintaining strict timing and temperature during the brewing process. The amount of flavors in beer is much higher than that of wine.

Okay, it is only 11am but now I am thirsty!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:03 PM

well, as I posted in a different thread..Creemore Springs lager makes the effort to find it worthwhile!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:11 PM

I see Creemore Springs every time I go into the beer store and don't think I've ever sampled it, Bill, but will do so, on your recommendation, the next time.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:17 PM

Well, to go back to Mr Beck's (unfortunate name that, considering the question) query, its not QUITE as you ask. Its more that rather than considering themselves superior because of drinking real ale, they drink real ale because THEY are superior to those who'll settle for pissy, factory-made Eurofizz lager.

It really DOES come down to the Lager-Lout culture, of those who are afraid to be dfferent to their mates, by not drinking the same as them.

Damn, I could do with a pint now...long overdue too, I'd say!

...& as for the name Beck (not Becks, I know!) the fact its 'Jeff Beck' is a major saving grace! (& even on a Folky forum, I reckon most people are sufficiently eclectic to know of The Great Man!)

There you are Jeff...your question answered, AND basking in the reflected glory of an Icon!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

A GENUINE quote from a policeman at a small village festival when I commented that he must hate pulling duty lie that - " No mate ! We LOVE it - Folk and Jazz people drink LOTS of real ale and stay happy - Rock festivals , they have two pints of lager and want a fight ! "

Nuff Said

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: skipy
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:42 PM

simple answer - because they are!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

Wow. Some of you really bought into it. If you truly had "real lager" you would be singing a different tune. What I am reading is that some of you have become convinced that there is something called "real ale" that makes it superior. Folks, it is just a matter of process and yeast, and ales AND lagers do not have to come out as pasturized swill. Lagers are more complex then you give it credit for. Unfortunately, some of you can only think in terms of LAGER=BUDWEISER(or insert the name of a multi-national brew here). It is NOT the case!

The swill they serve at rock concerts is not "real lager".

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:01 PM

Fair enough Ron, fair enough.

It seems the Lagers you are talking about are, like Real Ale, 'hand-crafted' by artisans, rather than mass produced on a production line by mechanical &/or flesh-&-blood cogs in a machine.

If you came over to the UK, you would see that we are saying pretty much the same thing about OUR real ale as you are saying about YOUR lager.

We arent any of us here slagging off lager JUST BECAUSE its lager, but because its CRAP lager.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:02 PM

...you'll here just as much grumbling over here about naff beer as about naff lager, believe me.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM

I think it is you miss-reading Ron. Most, if not all of us are aware there is "real lager". It is rarely found in UK pubs.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

My apologies if I am mis-reading. I am sorry it is not produced in the UK, but I am betting that you have enjoyed some lagers without realizing it.   Lager technically means "to lay down". It is a method of fermenting beers at cool temperatures. The byproduct of this process is that it actually helps stablize the beer. While it normally takes longer for a lager to be produced, the mass brewers discoverd that adding rice or corn would speed up the process, which also created some of the beers that have given the term such a bad name.

Oktoberfest beers are lagers. Oktoberfest and Marzen beers are sometimes ranked in with Vienna-style lagers. They are sweeter with a nice malty flavor. You can also have dark lagers, and I would highly recommend Germany's Ayinger if you can get your hands on one.

Pilsner, which includes Budweiser, is a process that was developed ito produce clear and golden brews. This is the style that has been corrupted to meet the taste buds of the most drinkers, people who respond to advertisement more than taste.

One question, I have heard that most UK pubs only carry one brand. I hope that is not the case.   I was told that pubs usually are owned by the brewers and they will sell their own brand.   Please tell me that is not true. I can't think of a duller way to spend an evening at a bar then to be forced to drink only one style of beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

By the way, don't get me wrong. I LOVE ale. I just can't say that I enjoy it more than any other style. It is like being forced to pick a favorite child.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM

So then, when UKers say "lager," what they mean is really the Bud/Coors/Labatts/Corona/Miller crap rather than a beer produced by the lagering method? OK...another one for transatlantic incomprehension.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 01:56 PM

Usualy art, yes, although names would include Fosters, Carling, etc. and not (that I've seen) a couple of the names you mentioned.

I honestely do not know about UK "real larger" production but typically in a UK pub, where you will normally find one or more real ales, you will only find the mass produced lagers.

The only pub I use on a fairly regular basis that sells another type of lager is one in Norwich (20 odd miles from me) I go to for a session. That one as well as a selection of real ales which include a couple it brews also has a few Belgian lagers available. I must admit I have yet to try one of these but I am told they are excellent.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:03 PM

Jon, one of my better memories is sitting in a pub in Doolin, Ireland, drinking Smithwicks (while the rest of the Americans drank Guinness) and being amazed that the locals were drinking Bud.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:24 PM

I am definitely a real ale drinker, but I want to add to what Ron said earlier.
The original Budweiser comes from Ceske Budejovice in Bohemia. I can't recall whether it is in the Czech Republic or in Slovakia nowadays. At any rate, it is slightly to the east of Bayreuth and to the north of Upper Austria. The German name for the city is Budweis -hence the name. I recall saying to a German that I really liked orginal Budweiser, which you can occasionally get in cask form in Germany. I said it was one of the best Pils I had ever tasted. I was quickly corrected and told that it was a lager. Up to then, I had never thought of lager as being the tasty, mature drink, which Budweiser, for example, is. (All beer drinkers will quickly realise that I am not talking about the mass produced American product.)
I would rather not drink anything at all than the sugary, plastic tasting "lagers" in the UK. If you drop into Köln though, I will happily take you down to Schwejk in the Altstadt for a glass of a prince among beers. Good beer is good beer. I won't drink rubbish German beers and I won't drink English rubbish either. Making beer is like anything else. You can do it badly or you can do it well. No country has a monopoly on good beer, any more than it has a monopoly on good music.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:27 PM

When you compare Budvar and Budwieser, allegedly the same style of beer then you begin to realise what a catchall name lager is.
I can drink the Chekoslovack style lager/pilsner beers till the cows come home, but Carling Harp and Tennant's, and other big brewers lagers made in the UK are crap, and give me a bad stomach.
I like a proper hand made bitter like Fiddlers Elbow, or Wychwood, of the draught beers I like Youngs Special,and Courage Directors amomg others, with my favourite being Gale's HSB.
However, to sum up, Lager is a good beer but not well done outside Eorope, and good British bitter beer with malt and hops in the right proportions takes a lot of beating.
Giok

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:35 PM

Giok, come to Albuquerque and I'll take you down to the local brewpub for a pint of good lager!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

One question, I have heard that most UK pubs only carry one brand. I hope that is not the case.   I was told that pubs usually are owned by the brewers and they will sell their own brand.

Most pubs in the UK are owned by breweries or by (I don't know what you call them) "property groups" (they don;t brew but own pubs) such as Punch Houses may be managed (employed by the brewery), tenancy or leases (not quite sure on the difference there). I think there is a law requiring a tied pub to have a "guest beer" but the choices can be limited and publicans usualy compelled to buy from within the group. Where I am, in North Norfok, Punch seem to be the biggest player.

We also do have "Free Houses" who don't have these restrictions but they are less common. Free Houses btw often have an advantage over ones that are tied when it comes to pruchasing beer BTW. It may sound odd but lets say you had a tied "Tetley" pub and I had a Free House, you could well find I could buy "your" brew cheaper than you can.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:18 PM

Any one who has spent time AND money in Nothern Europe will know that there are a wealth of pale lager type beers from Belgium , Holland and Germasny which APPEAR to be lagers , but are in fact GOOD Beer !
Every now and then you MAY find a pub in UK selling the REAL thing (At Exhorbitant prices) which make your Fosters , Carling , etc taste like the crap they are .
By the same token there are a lot of VERY drinkable Non lager type beers in our long lost colonies of the North Americas ! Adams in Boston is one I have enjoyed !

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: HuwG
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:21 PM

I work behind a bar at present. GUEST,Jon is perfectly correct; tied houses are more restricted in the range of bitter beers they sell and at the same time more expensive than Free Houses.

Judging by comments in this thread and others, and books by Bill Bryson et al. both British and American suppliers are up against a bleating, I'll drink it because everybody else does, follow-my-leader attitude. That is why a Starbucks will drive Fred's Coffee House out of business if it opens within a few city blocks.

Likewise with pubs. Hordes of young people will flock in and just say, "Lager". If really pushed for details, they might just say, "Carling". They can quite happily ignore half a dozen pumps for light or dark bitters or milds.

"Real Ale" also suffers a little from the image presented by CAMRA. CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale, was formed in the 1970's to protest about the growing homogenisation of the brewing industry in Britain. All well and good. Unfortunately, most of the real ale enthusiasts show ample evidence of their dedication to their palates, in the form of gigantic beer-bellies. A few others show the obsessive name- and number-collecting habit associated with train-spotters.

My personal opinion; most draught lager sold in Britain has the authentic taste of hacksaw blades dissolved in battery acid. It is served extra cold to make it palatable. I wouldn't normally touch bottled lager, but there are some specialised brands available albeit at a price; Leffe, Hoegaarden (sp? I have difficulty with the gothic script on the bottle).

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Cobble
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:41 PM

All ale is real or it would'nt be ale. It should be called traditional ale meaning brewed in the old fashioned way.

          Cobble.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Grab
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 03:50 PM

Jon, that is sadly correct. Most pubs in the UK are either owned by a particular brewery or tied to that brewery (for preferential rates on that brewery's product).

Art, it's not quite as bad as that, but very close. Budweiser and co have just taken English lager to its logic, taste-free, watery conclusion.

And back to Jeff Beck's original question, drinkers of real ale think themselves superior to drinkers of cheap lager for the same reason that someone going to see Tom Paxton (or a similar good musician - obligatory music link there :-) for £20 a ticket might consider themselves superior to the yob who goes out and spends £20 on getting utterly ratted. Or the same way a person who carefully finds a good local painter selling an original landscape for £50 might consider themselves superior to someone who buys a framed print of "Stag at bay" or similar tripe. It's a question of having the values to spend your money on something worthwhile which will give you pleasure, instead of spending the same money on something indescribably cheap and nasty. And worst of all, not realising that you're wasting your money on crap.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:27 PM

There are some interesting beers in Alsace too: I once had one allegedly made from Sauerkraut.

One of the main reasons in England that real ale drinkers (the beer in question is of course not an ale but a beer since it is hopped) think themselves superior to lager drinkers is the behaviour of lager drinkers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM

Many lagers sold in the UK have names associated with very good beer, but are in fact made and bottled here under licence, and have none of the finer characteristics of the original brew.

Examples of this would be Lowenbrau, and Tuborg, which are generally awful in UK pubs, but try them in their country of origin and they are delightful.

The term "real ale" has become a way of distinguishing between cask conditioned live beer and keg beer which has been killed by fermentation, and is delivered by CO2 pressure which gives it a fizzy head and makes it a sort of beer flavoured lemonade. This also chills it and partially hides the inferior flavour.

Real ale is delivered by the internal pressure produced by the conditioning, and comes up at cellar temperature, which allows the drinker to get the full complexity of flavour.

I don't consider myself superior to anyone, but I do reserve the right to choose to spend my money on those products that my taste buds best appreciate.

I think most people feel the same about their own choices, and good luck to them. It would be a dull world if everyone liked the same things.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM

Well put Don, but to say "ale" or "lager" is not enough. You would not order a glass of wine or a plate of food, you need a further description. "Lager drinker" could mean anything. It sounds like it is a reference to a style of commercially made Pilsner, but when people use simple terms like "lager" they are ignoring some fine beers.   If you don't like pizza, you don't necessarily hate all Italian food.

Real ale has become a catchphrase that makes it simple to compartmentalize a certain style of beer. Luckily the world offers much more.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

Agreed Ron, but in the UK at least, Lager has become associated with a very specific grouping of binge drinkers (rightly or wrongly referred to as lager louts) who are currently occupying a disproportionate amount of police time and resources, in controlling their behaviour after closing time in pubs and clubs.

As I have said, I don't subscribe to the idea that "Lager" per se is inferior, but what tends to be served under the name Lager in this country (with a few very notable exceptions) is.

When you add to this the public perception of the group I have described above, it isn't too surprising that it gets a rather bad press.

Some years ago (more years than I care to admit) I took a walking holiday in Austria, and at that time virtually every farm made its own Hofbrau (House brew). You could, when thirsty, knock at the door and buy a two litre bottle of lager for a few Schillings, which invariably was purest nectar. In the Bierkellers you could buy dark beers as good as the finest ales ever made in England.

The problem seems to be that these beers were never exported to the UK, so the vast majority of people here are unaware of the difference.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:12 PM

There are two ways to tell bloody aweful (Eurofizz - or should that be Urifizz) lagers in Britain, they either come from a tap in a 'chain' pub (or 'piss-and-plastic' bar) or they come from bottles with the obscene phrase "Brewed under License".

There are the the occasional decent lagers to be found in Britain, but they are, regrettably, few and far between.

W

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:16 PM

There's good beer in all varieties, and terrible beer as well. The rule of thumb is to avoid stuff you've seen advertised too widely, and when it comes to draught beer, avoid anything that isn't hand-drawn.

There may conceivably be some good lager produced in the UK, but I've never come across it. So I'll stick to (some) imported lagers and some English-style beers I've got reason to trust. And Guinness, but preferably Murphy's if they have it. And of course I'll be happy to sample any of these hand-crafted American beers if anybody's buying...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

A propos of your comment on Guinness, McGrath, that's another one brewed in England under licence. What you buy under the same name in Dublin has, IMHO, a much finer flavour. I agree with you about Murphy's tho'.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:34 PM

Guiness is no longer brewed in England under license. All UK Guiness is brewed in Dublin. Unfortunately the stuff exported over here is made from the guard dogs urine and bears no resamblance to the Irish stuff. But it is brewed there all the same.

Up here in the frozen North we have an excelent brew from Dobbins (If I remember rightly) that was called Guiltless stout until some pratt from Dublin made them change the name. The brew is still very nice all the same.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM

I guess the word "lager" has been corrupted and misused in te UK. A real shame that the word cannot be used as intended.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM

I am sure that is right (all brewed in Dublin) and I am also sure that whilst everyone claims to be able to taste the difference with all due respect it is all no better than Eurofizz lager. It is served cold or very cold and arrives at the pub in a sealed metal dustbin. It takes absolutely no skill to look after it and whilst I am willing to concede to its fans that there may possibly be a difference in taste from pub to pub this is due to turnover of the product and nothing else.

If they ever stopped advertising it, its sales would drop like a stone. It is vastly overpriced.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM

What makes the difference with Guinness is how far the taps and the pipes are kept clean - well, it makes the difference with all beer of course, but the thing with Guinness is, since no other skills are really needed in serving it (apart from knowing how to pour it, which is tricky enough), the normal skills of looking after beer can be lacking in people selling it. They can get away without them, most of the time. But if the taps aren't clean, or worst of all, if the cleaning stuff is allower to remain in the system, it can taste absolutely disgusting.

As Dylan might have sung:

One kind favour I ask of you,
See that my taps are kept clean

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Psst.... Mr McGrath, hush up about Guinness...Divis Sweeney is back, & if he hears you talking about Guinness, there'll likely be words said...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM

I've always enjoyed a good draft Guinness. The stuff in the bottles is fine for cooking with, but not a great drink.   While there are other stouts that I enjoy more, I think that a properly served Guinness is nice.   

Recently I was in Washington and stopped into the Dubliner, reportedly one of the finest Irish pubs in our country.   Their pint was served very, very cold and was awful.   On the other hand, there is a bar in my hometown that serves "the perfect pint".

I think that there are beer snobs that will automatically disregard Guiness.   Because it is successful, people automatically feel that it is inferior.   As McGrath pointed out, the upkeep of the establishment will determine the taste.

Again, if any of you find yourself in Northern NJ please look me up. I would love to sample some great brews at the beer mecca - Andys Corner Bar in Bogota, NJ.   Finest kind.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

Had a friend from Galway who lived in Dublin for a few years before coming across to England to live (& for the past few years he's been in Wales...) He used to say that the 'Durty Nellys' pub in Hull (Durty Nellys is an Irish-themed pub 'chain' in UK) served the best pint of Guiness hed had outside Ireland...& his local in Dublin was the pub nearest the brewery.... just couple of hundred yards down the road... the barrels were delivered by hand!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 06 - 11:01 PM

i gave up beer and lager drinking a few years ago when my weight was creeping too close to 18 stone..

growing up in the west country provided ample opportunity to enjoy
real hand pulled draught barreled beers..


but about 15 years ago i went on my first trip to Czeckoslovakia
with a mate who organised cultural exchange trips..

one of the perks was guided tours of czeck breweries

and drinking in the bars that served the freshest purest barrels of local brews..

including the real genuine origional budvar in Ceske Budejovice ..

after that first trip..

i'd spend the equivalent of 3 or 4 weeks a year travelling and drinking all around that beautifull mid european paradise..


you really can drink that stuff until you fall happily and gently unconcious..

and still wake up next without a hint of a hangover..


after that i couldnt enjoy heavier gravity trad english beers so much anymore..


luckily.. a few choice pubs around uk started to import barrels direct from
czech suppliers..


anyway.. in late 90's it seemed big global US & UK corporate beer brands..
were negotiating to buy into czeck breweries..

amidst much fear of modernisation and sterilisation of real czeck lagers in name of corporate progess..

and general westernisation of communist / mid european culture..

i stopped visiting and have'nt been back since 6 years..

so cant say if the lagers have been ruined or not..

.. anyway.. i reverted back to my own trad regional folk culture

and only drink fine quality natural pressed ciders these days..




or at worst.. big pubchain bland chemical fizzy ciderpops

if i'm outsocialising
in a place thats too prejudiced to ever consider stocking selling & the 'real thing'

[and my weight is now a healthier 15 and three quarter stone;
mostly gym toned muscle..!!!]

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: jeffp
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

Real ale is actually pumped by a "beer engine," which looks on the outside like a simple tap, but is actually a hand pump. Cask conditioning does not develop enough pressure to push beer up from a cellar.

Lagers and ales are created by different yeasts, ale yeast forms a cake on the top of the fermenting wort, while lager yeast forms its cake on the bottom. Ale is fermented at 65-72 degrees fahrenheit, while lager is slowly cooled to around 50 degrees after fermentation begins. It develops fewer esters at that temperature, keeping the flavor "cleaner," in some peoples' opinions.

There is also a third variety - California Common or "Steam" beer. This is exemplified by Anchor Steam Beer. It is produced with a lager yeast fermented at warmer temperatures.

My preference is for ales. They just feel better in my mouth.

BTW, there is just as much "Everybody know that ..." bullshit in brewing as there is in folk music.

Good thing is that both are great fun to discuss while drinking the one and listening to the other.

Jeff

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: ossonflags
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:27 AM

You are dead right paul.Having drunk many a pint and sung many a song - see "Punch The horse" thraads - in the Durty Nellies in Hull I can personnaly vouch for its excellance.Chris the gaffer probably sells more pints of the "G" than any one else in 'ull

I have also drunk the black stuff all over Ireland,including your mates pub.What I find really strange however, is one year I was drinking in "McDaids" Harry street Dublin, a pub not a thousand miles from St.James Gate brewery, and the pint was dearer than a pub in Ballyferriter County Kerry that I visited two days later !!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:39 AM

I'll have to get round to seeing Punch the Horse one of these days

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:44 AM

I think there was a difference between the Dublin brew and the English brew. It always seemed creamier, although the joy of being in Ireland might have helped...

I do like Guiness but I've given up with it, It's pushing towards £3 per pint here and I can get a really good bitter for maybe £2.20. If I do drink a stout these days, it is usualy in the Shed (the pub I mentioned earlier) and not one of the Irish types.

Of all the Irish stouts, my favourite was Beamish but, at least as far as I understand it, they changed the recipe when they started calling it "Beamish Black". It's seemed to become more Guinness like in taste.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM

I'll have to get round to having a pint of somthing one of these days.

I'm long overdue

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: ossonflags
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:13 AM

Well you could kill two birds with the one fiver in a months time when we are due to play at Durty Nelleys again.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Mr Fox
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 11:38 AM

The worst liquid masquerading as beer HAS to be the UK version of Budweiser - a nasty British imitation of a nasty American imitation of a decent Czech beer.

Bud going down tastes like real ale coming up.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: The Walrus
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 12:39 PM

"...Bud going down tastes like real ale coming up... "

That, Mr Fox, is an insult ... to regurgitated real ale.

W

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 01:42 PM

Mudcatter Alaska Mike (Mike Campbell) has a great song with a refrain which begins Put that Budweiser back in the Clydesdale, which is a perfect place for it.   {Can this thread go back on top now?}

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 01:45 PM

Y'all are fucked up right and proper for sure. Gimmee a can of Bud!! Them boys put the date right on the can so ya' know ya' got a fresh one. 'Sides, them Anheuser-Busch folks dump about a ton of money into racing in general and NASCAR in particular and that's a shitload more important then taste anytime.

>>>>   8   >>>>
GO JUNIOR

GIT 'R DONE!!!!!!

Spaw (LMAO)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 01:52 PM

You're a brave man 'Spaw, but I worries 'bout you sometimes...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Judge
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

Nothing better than a cold pint of Fosters. You lot slag it off and say it comes from a "factory". You don't drink it so how do you know so much about it's flavour etc. As for coming in metal containers so does all draught beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:26 PM

Nowt wrong with a pint of the old kangaroo piss if your just back from a week in the bush, Judge.

As to As for coming in metal containers so does all draught beer there is a nice article here
disproving that theory.

Hic.

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 02:37 PM

I shall do that then, me owd 'oss!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Judge
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:30 PM

Interesting article Dave. However in the UK there are strict EU rgulations governing beer containers. Wood is NOT ALLOWED unless it has a plastic lining! This defeats the object of having wood in the first place.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

There must be some good Aussie beer. Any nominations? So I know what to ask for next time I'm in a Aussie eatery

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Bobby The Brewer
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 04:07 PM

See BBC article It reveals lots of chemicals in our beer - but not in the purest of pure Carlsberg!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 04:46 PM

Gimmee a can of Bud!!

Why do they serve Bud so cold?

To distinguish it from gnats' piss.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: ossonflags
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:53 AM

"Camerons Strongarm" the true path !!!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:11 AM

Dis gustibus est dis Bud sputum.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:23 AM

FOSTERS?............. FOSTERS for fucks sake, are you some sort of moron ? it's super chilled shite, I know desparate alcoholics who won't drink it.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:29 AM

*LOL*

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:32 AM

I don't think it is quite that bad. I'll drink Fosters, even if not just desparate for a drink. It's far from my first choice of drink though.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Bob Darthen
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:32 AM

Fosters is a lovely lager. What do you mean by "super chilled" surely it would be ice if that were the case. How do you know it tastes like shite? It's obvious to me who the moron is. BTW do you have a beard?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Edward Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:44 AM

Foster's is a light golden colour with medium malt character. It has a subtle hop bitterness achieved from hopping the beer as late as possible to capture all the flavour of the unique "Pride of Ringwood" hops. With a delicate fruity hop aroma and balanced taste. Foster's rolls off the tongue leaving a clean crisp finish. It is the biggest selling beer in London. It is brewed by Scottish & Newcatle Brewery. The ingredients are: Water, Malted Barley, Maize, Wheat, Hops & Yeast Thats it! No chemicals as ignorant informed people will try to tell you. It is a truly great beer!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 10:13 AM

Maize?!!

What's wrong with just water, barley, hops and yeast?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Edward Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:03 AM

There is only a small amount of maize added for colouring - no artificial colours! Also a smidgeon of natural wheat, which encourages bottom fermenting yeast. It is a pure natural beer. The only thing added after brewing is CO2 which gives it a fizz which is not to everyone's taste, but most people enjoy this. The CO2 also acts as a preservative. There is nothing more refreshing on a hot summer day!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:14 AM

"There is nothing more refreshing on a hot summer day!"


there is..


cool pub cellar temp. conditioned natural draught cider !!!!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Edward Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:17 AM

I must admit Folky Punky Rocker, I'd have to agree, real cider does have it's merits. Cider or lager in the hot weather (not together) Bitter or stout in winter. Whatever you fancy really.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:25 AM

Despite its nerdy image, if it weren't for CAMRA we probably wouldn't have any real ale these days. It was due to CAMRA that the shirts & ties in the brewing industry didn't get their way and nowadays a pub without real ale is the rarity.

I remember in the early 70's if word got round that a pub had been found that still had hand pumps, there was a mad rush to get there before the brewery ripped everything out and 'modernised' it. Don't forget there's more to a pub than real ale. Even if it does serve decent beer, I don't get much pleasure from sitting in an establishment that looks more like an Indian restaurant than an English public house! Pubs that still look like pubs are few and far between these days. I think the older generation of pub landlords didn't die of old age, they died of broken hearts.

Also the problem I find is that the number of landlords/managers (or whatever they're called this week) who know how to look after real ale seems to be disproportionate to the number of pubs serving it. The wonderful thing about British beer is the wide variety of tastes, each brew having its own distinctive flavour. I have been in a number of pubs where the beers, whatever you order, are drinkable (just) but all taste the same. Or, in the hot weather go flat after a couple of mouthfuls.

Sorry to upset the purists, but in defence of lager, when the following criteria apply:
a) in Greece
b) 30+ degrees of heat (or thereabouts)
c) in a taverna with a Greek salad in front of me
….. an ice cold Mythos goes down a treat!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:46 AM

I have put up this web page on a previous thread but look out for the notice on the third photograph down!

Link

some of us will there this w'end too

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Beardy
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:48 AM

I like both. A lot depends on the pub. A dirty glass can ruin any drink. These new glass washing machines are no good. The glasses end up with a fine film of detergent which kills any beer. Glasses used to be polished prior to EU hygiene rules. A good well balanced lager or a fine cask conditioned ale, both are excellent served up by a good landlord in a clean glass.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: mindblaster
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:50 AM

I'm a real ale man myself. Youngs, Shepherd Neame, Adnams etc. But I do love a pint of cold fosters in the hot weather!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 12:03 PM

Please don't let my wife see this thread! She's a professional brewer of 25+ years standing, and is generally reckoned to have one of the best palates in the industry; she can pick out up to thirty different distinct tastes from a pint, tell you what ingredients were used, usually who brewed it and when. Her hobby is shredding beer bores, and it can get ugly.
Her view is that beer should be well-produced, and that there should be a lot of variety in the market. Trouble is, a lot of 'real ale' is simply not very well produced at all, and a given brand may not taste the same from one brew to the next. Many beer drinkers confuse 'off' flavours with character, and are often drinking beer that has gone badly wrong in the brewing process. This can be due to a number of things; poor quality control of ingredients, poor water treatment (almost all brewers do this), bacterial and other infections, lack of temperature control, over/under use of additives ('adjuncts' in the trade), poor serving hygiene and yeast problems are some of the most common. Top pressure beers such as draught lagers avoid some of these problems, but not all.
Personally, I like a pint of hand-pulled bitter (or mild when I can get it), but when it's really hot I like a cold lager too.
For those dedicated souls who want to do some research in this area, can I recommend a stroll down St Edwards Street in Leek, Staffordshire? Four pubs in the Good Beer Guide, including the local Pub of the Year, plus a superb Belgian Beer Bar and a Tapas Bar, all within 200 yards of each other; and you can plan your stroll so that it's all downhill. If you do decide to take up this research, I'll be in the Wilkes Head, and you can buy me a pint of Hartington Bitter! (Purely in the interests of science, you understand!)
Tim

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

Fosters on tap is rare (but not unknown) in the States. What we usually see is the BIG cans. I don't care much for the lager, but the bitter (in the green can) is drinkable.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:51 PM

"Nothing better than a cold pint of Fosters.."...ummmmm....well....

As for GOOD Aussie beers, I used to enjoy Coopers ale, but have not seen it here for ages.

also, Tooth's Sheaf Stout was wonderful, but I read that Tooth's was bought by Carlton, who also owns Foster's...and I haven't seen it in years either.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: melodeon king
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM

I like a pint of warm flat "leper's fart" or if they don't have that (pipes tend to get clogged) "Old Helmet Cheese" will do. You lager drinkers don't know what you are missing ... aaaarrrgh!!!! ...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: HuwG
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:38 PM

Quote from Inspector Morse: "They don't spell Australian lager, XXXX, out of ignorance, Lewis".

The landlord of the Globe, in Glossop, is brewing his own bitter. The first few batches were variable in quality, but all have been well received. I was asked the other day, "Why aren't you still serving Globe Summer Ale ? Is it because the weather has turned bad." I replied, "No. You lot have drunk it all."

Beer engines (hand pumps) do have small air pumps in the lines, powered by CO₂ cylinders. These do not add gas to the brew; they merely prevent any beer surging back into the cask when the handle is released, and stirring up yeast and sediment which then get into the lines. The continued fermentation of yeast in the cask is important to the flavour, but yeast in the pint when drunk tastes bad and (in my experience) can give the most truly awful hangovers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:41 PM

"Quote from Inspector Morse: "They don't spell Australian lager, XXXX, out of ignorance, Lewis"."

*ROFL* I like it!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM

I reiterate, In matters of taste and beauty, there is no argument. As for my personal persuasion, here in the US in never liked beer as a young person in the 60's & 70's. Bud, Coors, Schlitz etc. was all the same. Then some where in the 80's I tasted Groelsch (Spelling??)Ale and I was a changed man. I never met an ale I didn't like (except for some pretenders to the name). Since then some clever folk began micro-breweries and began to produce some beers according to the ancient traditions and I discovered that there WERE beers I liked, including some lagers. Since then I've tried my hand at some brewing and now appreciate what goes into producing a good palatable beer or ale. Lagering can produce some really exceptional beer. I have some friends who produce a fine home brew lager. I've yet to find an acceptable commercial lager. Age and temperature control are critical and distribution is problematic. None the less I apreciate each for it's own uniqueness but my personal preference runs to ale.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:28 PM

I would like to recommend two pubs where you can try out testing real ale against decent lager until you fall over.

First up Fat Cat - http://www.thefatcat.co.uk/86index.htm

One of the world's great boozers. (Apart from me that is!!)

http://www.devonshirecat.co.uk/content.php
is brilliant for bottled beer.

Two good reasons to live in Sheffield

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

Fat Cat looks like a great place to go! I love being able to try a range of excellent brews in one place.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:30 PM

Looks good. There are all sorts of Fat Cats btw. here is a Norwich pub of that name. It's the "sister pub" of the one I mentioned in this thread, the Shed, where I go for music.

Only been in the Fat Cat (Norwich) once. It may sound odd but the night I tried it, it felt too full of "beer connoisseurs" for my liking.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

A post WAY up thread seemed to state that Real Ale contains no hops. Can this be true?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:51 PM

Strictly speaking it is true. "Ale" means the type of beer that used to be brewed before they introduced hops a few centuries back, and there still are some beers made without hops which are correctly called "ales" in that sense.

Most of the beer referred to as "Real Ale" are not actually ale at all, it's just a way of saying traditionally brewed and served. Of course language changes and it's a bit over pedantic to object to ale being used as a synonym for beer generally.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:34 PM

I've had beer all over Europe, and I had no trouble finding beer I liked - except in England. I'm sorry, but I just couldn't develop a linking for "bitter" beer. People there insisted I should have lager since I'm an American and that's what Americans like, but it was awful - worse than Coors. American folkies don't drink Coors or Miller Lite or Budweiser, and they're not going to like English Lager (which usually turns out to be Stella Artois, which doesn't sound very English).

I've always liked Newcastle Brown Ale, but I didn't have any in England because it's readily available here in California. I found a wonderful English beer called Grouse Beater, but it was available only one or two days of my three-week stay. The rest of my UK experience was extraordinary and I really loved the music - but not the beer.

Sorry.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:22 AM

Yo Edward Bridge, if Fosters is good why is it killed [ sterilised ] after brewing ? why isn't it served naturaly like good beers should be served ? how can it compare with a beer like Taylors Landlord, brewed in Keighley for over a hundred years and STILL using the same yeast culture.

Fosters and crap like Miller Lite [ what sort of spelling is that ] are deliberately brew as bland as possible, served very cold so no one can tell it's tasteless.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:47 AM

There's nothing wrong with sterilising lager or any other beer. It gets rid of nasty bacteria that is usually present in "real ale". Soon the EU will be introducing a law where all beer will have to be clean.

Bacteria and living yeast cells detract from the careful blend of flavours in the beer and can cause that "farty" smell that a lot of badly kept "real" ales have.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:28 AM

With respect folkman, thats a load of bollocks, real ale is a living thing, this is where the different beers get their individual character, you obviously prefer bland nitro-keg pop.

The EU will do no such thing, do you think the Germans and the Belgians, who brew some of the worlds great beers will put up with that ? Germany already has strict laws governing the brewing of beer. Incidently a lot of German beers are lagers, Fosters, Carling, Miller and all the rest of the factory made beers bear no comparison to proper lagers.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:30 PM

new kid on the block
on todays news

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

There goes the ice cap.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

I've always thought that the beer in the USA is far superior to the muck that is served up as real ale in the UK

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

100

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:21 PM

Damn you, Ingham - I was on a roll of centuries then!

You know what though - In some ways I agree with you. All the real ale I got in the US from at least half a dozen different micro-breweries was absolutely top class. There is stuff here that equals or beats it but there is an awful lot of bilgewater served up as real ale as well:-( I think that because it is a relatively new 'real ale' market there people realy do care more than some of the established brewers here.

Where I disagree is that in the main the US 'domestic' beer is not as good as the ordinary beer here. Even the worst that Scottish and Newcastle can throw at is usualy better than Bud or Miller. One I did enjoy oddly enough was Blue Ribbon (Pasche?) But then again I upset the CAMRA guys here by alternating my pints of old bishops scrotum with Carling black label.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

Back in the '70s when I belonged to CAMRA there were very few pubs selling cask conditioned beer - but by heck the quality in all of them was first class. It seems that from the mid 80s onward every tom, dick & harry of a landlord has jumped on the "real ale" bandwagon and the quality in general has plummeted. Youngs Brewery would not supply beer unless the recipient had a cellerman certificate to proove that they knew how to handle their beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

Spot on, Kenneth. The worst effect has been the small independants falling for the promises of the big boys who are paying lip service to Real Ale - Look at Boddingtons as a point of fact. Sold out to Whitbread for bigger profits, started to make crap beer. Now closed down. Thanks heavens Holts have the covenant to give lots of money to cancer research:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:31 PM

Well, I asked a fellow session player tonight. He is a microbiologist who has experience with commercial brewing processes, and is also a keen home brewer as well as one for a good "nose" for a pint he likes.

I'd say to my surprise, he does come down in favour of the steralising/filtering or whatever processes and does think there is a certain amount of myth about the real ales.

One thing he did stress though is if you are really talking about an ale with live yeast, you need a good cellarman - a point raised by others. That, in line with what someone else indicated, adverse processes start happening, etc.

Sorry it's all a bit vague but when this person gets going on a conversation, it can take me a week or more for bits to sink in.

For now, I'm just reporting back and saying perhaps it is not all quite as cut and dried as at least I thought...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 06:14 AM

I am not sure that anyone over thought it was "easy". I know decent landlords that have sent beer back to breweries, rather than serve crap - and the breweries accept it.

Eurofizz is lowest common denominator - it is designed to appeal to the largest number of people. It takes nothing to look after a sealed metal dustbin. IMHO the same landlords that are found of sealed metal dustbins are less likely to clean their pipes and generally go for a high quality of hygiene essential for decent beer.

I also like the Aerican "craft" beers (In Oregon where there are loads of micro-breweries) but they are pasteurized and filtered. And rarely below 5% - hardly a "session" beer, in either sense of the word.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Moby Duck
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM

I don't know why people keep referring to Lager as "fizz" "chilled" as if that makes it bad. I personally cant stand warm flat beer. So what!

But I can't understand how people can drink some of the cloudy evil smelling stuff that I've seen poured in real ale pubs. And bloody hell have you ever been to the bog/mens room after a bearded ale drinker Phhhhhhew!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bob dylan
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:31 AM

I like a cold lager. You limeys drink horrible brown smelly slop called ale yurchh!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

You limeys drink horrible brown smelly slop called ale yurchh!

And you Americans will drink anything - including gnat's piss.

And it is served cold so you can't taste what crap it really is.

But I defend your right to drink whatever garbage people are prepared to serve you and you are prepared to spend good money buying.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: melodeon king
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 04:01 PM

I love a pint of youngs bitter!
I love a pint of Ruddles County
I love a pint of Fosters lager
I love a pint of cider
Variety my children that's what life's about.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM

I love a pint of youngs bitter!
I love a pint of Ruddles County
I love a pint of Fosters lager
I love a pint of cider
Variety my children that's what life's about"

With you all the way there.

Except for the Foster's. Brewed under licence. Always a give-away.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:04 AM

Flat warm beer?? What's the point? Maybe something mulled in the dead of winter but that is about it. You'd have to live in the most god-awful hole on the planet, be wrapped in cold fog and eternal dinginess, breathing mold spores constantly in order to like uh , warm uh, uh flat uh uh,    oh!.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:21 AM

I find that most so-called "real ales" are far too strong to appeal to real drinkers. Good session beer of less than 4% is a thing of the past, so if you want "a good drink" you end up with Adnams, London Pride, CBB etc, all of which are around 4.3%, which generally means not feeling all that bright the next day. Hence I go on to lager if it's going to be a heavy session.

It also seems to me that the people who have the most huff 'n puff to say about real ales are the ones who sip their way through a pint in an hour and a half and then leave an inch in the bottom and go home, braging to all their mates about what a drunken blast they had at the weekend. I could go on to mention that most of the bollocks talked about Guinness is talked by those who rarely drink the stuff, but I won't.

One thing I will say - if you can drink instant coffee you really should not really be commenting on matters of taste ........

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:10 AM

Adnams "The Bitter" = 3.7%
Fosters Larger = 4%
Adnams "Broadside" = 4.7%
Budweiser Abv 5%
Stella Artois = 5.1%

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:21 AM

Manns brown ale - 2.8% abv
Robinsons Mild - 3.3% abv
Carling black label - 4.0% abv

Know what you mean about instant coffee though. Yuck. Starting to feel the same about standard teas (Typhoo, PG etc.)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM

" I go on to lager if it's going to be a heavy session."

???...you mean the point is to be able to drink steadily for hours, no matter the flavor?

To each his own, I suppose, but I will choose my brews for their taste, even if it means no more than 2-3 in an evening. I grew up in an area (middle US) where beer in a pub/bar was 3.2%, and I thought for years that I didn't really like beer...then I found real beer/ale....German, Belgian, English...etc, and was in heaven...and now I can get very good beer in the US. Sadly, very few lagers are among them...(exception noted above)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:00 PM

What has always fascinated me is the fact that, prior to Prohibitiom, American mass-produced beers were winning more than their share of international awards. After Repeal, something happened. I can't believe that our brewmeisters became suddenly incompetent; obviously American tastes changed over that brief period. But why....?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:36 PM

You can't call American brewers incompetent based on the tastes of a few large brands. American brewers, notably the microbrews, are creating some of the most interesting beers IN THE WORLD. They are winning awards again, internationally.

Before Prohibition, most beer was brewed locally because it was more difficult to ship.   Refrigeration, canning, and bottling improved along with the Repeal and it became possible for beer to be shipped greater distance. The brewers realized that "local tastes" would not be the same from region to region and the recipe for the product altered to make it more appealing to greater numbers.   As the larger brewers began to sell their product the tastebuds changed.   Local brewers would be forced to change their product to compete.   Soon, most beers began to taste the same.   By the 1980's, there were far fewer local brewers but the microbrew renaissance began.

Terry K mentions session drinking, and the note seems to perpetuate a stereotype that drinkers brag about getting drunk. Fans of good beer do not drink to get drunk, they enjoy the taste and the pleasant glow. They may not finish 4 beers in an hour, but I will bet that one beer will be remembered far longer.

It is a chicken vs. egg scenario when trying to determine who changed the taste - the brewers or the tastebuds of consumers. If it did not sell, people would not buy it.

There is still a snobbish appeal to beer. Blue collar consumers will stick with the blander beer, mainly because it is cheaper. Also, it is easier to get a quick buzz on a sixpack of Bud or Miller. Because it is bland and cold, it goes down easy and fast.   The tastier beers take longer to enjoy.   You won't chug a Sam Adams.    I've never seen anyone make a beer bong using Belgian Ale.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:48 PM

Well Bill, I can understand someone looking for a drink of lower abv if it is going to be a long night. I know I for one am not very good at making a pint last, epsecially if I'm playing in a session....

As Dave the gnome and I have shown that choice needn't be larger though and there is a fair variation in strength between both drinks. Most pubs I go to round here these days offer a minimum of 2 bitters, typically with 2, one somewhere around the 4% mark and one around the 5% mark.

Dick, if it's anything like the UK, I would guess the name of the game with the mass produced stuff has become to produce a drink that is not unpleasant to taste for the greatest number of people, taking out any possible character in the process.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:13 PM

Was writing while you posted, Ron. Thanks for the explanation.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:18 PM

How old are you TerryK? The only people I know who drink to get drunk are pre-legal aged teenagers (THEY like to brag) and poor unfortunate alcoholics who can't help themselves. I seldom ( once a year, if that) go to a bar or pub and never have more than two of anything and if I'm driving, one or none). I like ale and microbrews because of the taste and refreshment. I admire the complexity of flavors, texture and temperature and hopefully, the aftertaste. I'd forego the alcohol altogether but it too, contributes much to the flavor.

Do you eat to see how much you can eat? Brag about it?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:17 AM

Terry K, " most real ales are too strong to appeal to real drinkers "
what planet are you from ? you'll be telling us next that whisky is too strong a spirit for real men.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:03 AM

What are you on about Terry K? Real ale isn't just falling over fluid. It comes in all strengths- here's a nice range from Abbeydale as served at the Three Stags. I generally stick to the Matins.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:22 PM

Oh, I wish some place like Abbeydale were available close to me! Those folks have the right attitude!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Slag
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 04:26 AM

To the toast, gentlemen!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Abbot
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:15 AM

What is best then?

My mate tells me lager is best and that you lot need your taste budz examined!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:19 AM

Try for yourself. Why believe what other people tell you?

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:39 AM

Lager is only suitable for irrigating a bunch Vikings STD ridden urethras, or clearing out kidney stones. Real Ale tastes good, is dark,carries a frothy foam head down the glass, and smells like beer should with a pleasant aroma. Lager looks like urine smells like urine and causes urine; and Europeans have to put lime in it to give it flavour.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:51 AM

Bit unfair, Dave (tam), on good brews like Leffe, Bitburger and Jenlain but I can see where you are coming from:-) Perhaps if the English stick to bitters and milds, leaving our European cousins to the lagers, we would not get such abominations as Skol and Carling!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

I didn't think Leffe was a lager.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:07 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leffe

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:18 AM

From another site (Brew like a monk)

"Nonetheless, Leffe grabbed a bronze medal as a lager in the recently judged Brewing Industry International Awards in Munich. This is one of the most esteemed international competitions."

It is the fermenation temperature and type of yeast (top or bottom fermenting) that determines the 'lager' title. I believe Leffe is fermented for 2 weeks which, although shorter than some lagers, is considerably longer than most beers.

So I hold up my hands - I don't know which it is realy!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 07:37 PM

Half the time you would not know what you were drinking

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:10 PM

BARLEY - "Which any fool can eat, but for which the good Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give thanks and praise His bounty by brewing beer." -- attr. Friar Tuck, 1196 A.D.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:43 PM

"Lager looks like urine smells like urine and causes urine; and Europeans have to put lime in it to give it flavour."

Europeans don't know their ass from their elbow if they believe that crap.   That is just another example of ignorance and the fact that they were suckered into believing elist snobs commercial campaigns.

There are good lagers and there are bad lagers. There are good ales and there are bad ales. ALL of it is beer. If your taste buds are limited to one style, I pity you.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Historian
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

Well said Ron.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:06 PM

Errrr, Ron, I don't think ANY Europeans believe that. Aside from putting a slice of lemon into Blanche Biers I have never seen anyone adulterate either beer or lager since the ladies used to put lime in lager and blackcurrent in Guiness in the 1960s. Oh - apart from the strange habit that seems to have come across with the Mexican lagers of drinking out of a b0ttle with a wedge of lime stuck in it.

As to they are all beers... Well, it may be so now but originaly Ale was un-hopped. Beer only came into being when hops were added - Originaly as a preservative! The sub-genres of beer now known as ale and lager are just different ways of fermenting and storing.

I, for one, am not limited to one style but I certainly prefer dark beers over pale ones. The scope is vast - From Rodenbach to Manns brown ale. But you are quite right in one thing - There is good and bad in most things and the good should be enjoyed whatever form it takes:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM

DtG - I am not sure if I agree with you when you say "Beer only came into being when hops were added".   I've never heard that and I would be curious as to the source.

Beer is a generic term which probably derives from a Latin word for drink. As you noted, at one point all beer was unhopped but the addition of the plant did not change the name. There was a type of beer brewed in ancient Egypt. While they did not add hops, they added other plants for flavor.   Germans were the first to start using it, as you mentioned for a preservative. The UK was rather late coming to the table to use hops.   Regardless, all of it can and was labled "beer". Ale may have been a more common term if that was the only style availble in the region, but it was still beer.   Sort of like calling a tissue "Kleenex".

Do you know why they started adding lime to beer?   Here in the U.S., Mexican beer became popular in the late 50's and 60's when surfers in California would travel down to Mexico to buy cheap beer. At the time, Corona was available very cheap. The legend has it that the lime was added either to give it some taste, or in an attempt to keep flies out of the brew!   Somewhere along the line, the cheap Corona's became a bit of a status symbol, and now the crap is served as a premium!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:48 PM

There you go , Ron.

You are quite right in saying that hops were not the only addition - In fact it is hops that give beer it's soporiphic quality more that the alcohol. There have been beers brewed with, for instance, the oils of other plants that have just the opposite effect - Including Hemp!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:35 PM

DtG, your use of "ale" and "beer" intrigued me. The link you gave was for another discussion site, and the users did not really give credit to their source, so , I had to dig further!

Apparently, the distinction of "beer" and "ale" is apparently unique to England! You were 100% correct about the addition of hops. Up until about 1300, the English were drinking "ale" - which was an unhopped brew. I doubt if modern drinkers would recognize it though! It

The English were relative latecomers to the hops experience. Hops had been introduced several centuries earlier. Also, in some of the Baltic countries the word for beer is "alus" , in Estonian it is ölu, in Finnish it's olut,the Swedes call it öl, and the Norwegian and Danish word for beer is øl!   

For more information, I would like to direct you to Michael Jackson's website. No, not the pop singer with all the problems, this is Michael Jackson "The Beer Hunter". He has authored several books on beer, hosted a television series, and if you ever have a chance to attend a tasting that he supervises - go for it!! Here is a page on his website that discusses the above - http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-001511.html

Now I am thirsty again!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:48 PM

DtG....Rodenbach..YUM! I haven't had one for years....also BIOS Copper Ale is an 'interesting' Belgian specialty. At one point they plunge a red-hot Copper coil into the wort, which gives a fascinating tang to the brew.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:08 PM

Well as you can guess from my nickname, I've drunk beer all over the world. I love brown ale, mild and bitter from the UK. Amongst the best is Harveys Best Bitter,from Lewis in Sussex; and Tsingtao beer from China.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM

I guess you would know, Euro...

Anyway. Another interesting point (miss-spelt pint?). I also heard that the clear beers, came originaly from Bohemia because of the fasion for Bohemian crytal drinking vessels. Prior to that beer (or ale!) had been served in Pewter, pot, leather, wood and all sorts of things you couldn't see through. When the crystal tankard came out it was decided that the beer needed to be clear as well, to show off the glass. The first people to achieve this with any sucess were the brewers in Pilsen. So, originaly, Pilsner was a fasion acessory!

Probably complete cobblers but just goes to show what amazing stuff beer is. I could study it all night:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: woodsie
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

Ale, Beer, Stout, Lager - I love 'em all!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:37 PM

BillD, I must concur with you assessment of Creemore Springs lager, I am sipping my first as I type and I do agree that it is one fine lager. It is rich and full of flavour with a very fine carbonation and creamy head. My only slight, and very minor, quibble is that I find it a tad sweet for my taste - but that is my taste which tends to lean toward a drier quaff suh as Urquel Pilsner.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:39 PM

ah..well, then you & I could share a few things, but I DO enjoy that slightly sweeter taste at times. What I REALLY like is the 'sharp' taste of extra hops along with some sweetness.

We wouldn't waste any Creemore Springs, though!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:47 PM

If you get the chance do try John Sleeman's India Pale Ale, it is quite hoppy and full flavoured with a slight kick at 5.3% ABV. Sleeman's brewery has just been bought by Sapporo of Japan so don't know what the future will bring.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:37 PM

Brewing with hops was imported from Flanders in the 14thC. Prior to that hops were not used in England as they were believed to promote melancholy (before you get smart, go & look up the medieval theory of humours).

It's not a strict definition, but if you think of ale as non-hopped & beer as hopped, many people, particularly re-enactors, will understand. This is distinct from the term Real Ale (which I hate!), & also distinct from the technical & biological difference between an ale yeast & a lager yeast.

Ere hops, many things were used to bitter beer, but none of them had the preservative qualities of hops. The two that immediately spring to mind are ground ivy (NOT poison!) & alecost (Tanacetum balsamita, IIRC). The latter I have in my garden. It smells very strongly of mint, but imparts a lemony flavour to your brew. No brew, hopped or othrwise, would taste much like anything modern. If you can find & brew (approximately) to a medieval recipe, though, I recommend you do. They're different. Perhaps not to your taste, but try it & see...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:57 AM

Oh ale thou art my darling,
Thou art my joy both night and morning.

Ale, ale beautiful ale,
Served up in pewter it tells it's own tale.

Love it all, eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:02 AM

Eric, I learnt it as "Oh GOOD ale, thou art my darling" ....which sems particularly apt at the moment!

*G*

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:39 AM

Thats it Paul, I got the other one wrong as well, should be ' Glorious ale '

Take all teetotallers, they drinks water neat,
It must rot their gutses, and give 'em damp feet,
But I allus say that a man cannot fail,
On boiled beef and cabbages, and good ENGLISH ALE.

I love it, in fact I think I'll have some t'neet.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:45 AM

...& a big lump of fatty bacon...

Now you mention it, yes I learnt it as 'glorious'

Dammit, I fancy a pint now...havent had one in bloody ages!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:58 AM

I haven't had one since last night but I'm ready for one now, bloody hungry as well now.

eric

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM

Its a sight longer than that since I've had one..... just circustances really...I'm not trying to steer away from it!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: woodsie
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 11:24 PM

I could do with a drink!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:38 AM

G'day all & sundry,



Coopers Sparkling Ale

Tune: The Work of the Weavers (Scots, trad.)         Words: John Dengate

Before they hanged Ned Kelly in the gaol,
To make dead certain that his nerve didn't fail -
He drank a glass of COOPERS SPARKLING ALE
And he laughed in the face of the troopers.
CHORUS: It's Australia's best; we all agree,
        If it wasn't for the Coopers where would we be?
        We'd have to drink the residue of bogus chemistry
        If it wasn't for the brew of the Coopers.

So fill up your tankards my thirsty gents;
It's the only way to spend your dollars and your cents.
And it's made from natural ingredients -
There's health in the brew of the Coopers.
CHORUS:        It's Australia's best; we all agree…

It's throw away your cocoa and your lemonade
And toast the masters of the brewing trade.
They're the pride of the city of Adelaide;
Trust your thirst to the Coopers.
CHORUS:        It's Australia's best; we all agree…

If you want to stay healthy and you want to live,
Take heed of the sensible advice I give -
Steer clear of the chemical preservative
And stick to the brew of the Coopers.
LAST CHORUS
Don't throw away your money in the grocers' shops!
Don't squander your wages on mutton chops!
But save your money for the malt and hops
In the true blue brew of the Coopers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:44 AM

Yeah Bob - good stuff, the Coopers. We might get him to sing it tomorrow night when we're over at his place. We're doing New Years Eve with the Dengates this year, and I'm sure there'll be a lot more than some Coopers being downed ;-)

Happy New Year Bob!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:07 AM

Err... G'day again,

That post did a runner while I was still formatting the song lyrics!

Anyway, I just felt like dropping in one (musical) suggestion for a request ... well above ... for good ale in Australia. (Actually - bottled Cooper's is often called "Murray* Mud" by us eastern-staters, because of its visible yeast residue but, with careful handling and pouring it's a fine (carefully) poured from the bottle.)

John Dengate's song was published by me in John's 1982 collection of songs and poetry My Shout!, Bush Music Club, Sydney, 1982.

*The Murray is a major Australian river flowing from the Snowy Mountains west and south,through our major irrigation areas, for (~)2590 kilometres until it reaches Lake Alexandrina and then The Great Australian Bight, near Adelaide, South Australia. I think (hope...) Cooper's actually have a cleaner water source than that!

Cooper's is a good drop ... and they put up a nice wort for home brewers. Quite a lot of drinkable home-brew "Cooper's" have I enjoyed!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: JennyO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:51 AM

G'day Bob again.

Hmm - I didn't think I had the words to that one. I don't have "My Shout" - only "My Shout Again". It's a bit of an unfortunate gap in my collection :-(

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM

In 1954 I was in North Germany, driving with friends from the Rheinpfalz to Belgium. We stopped for lunch at a local gasthaus (I have no idea of the town or gasthaus name), and enjoyed some of their own "bier".

It was billed as "Die Strengste Bier Die Welt" (The strongest beer in the world, for you non-German-speakers.) 17 percent!

It was good stuff, too, to the palate of a young American who, only about ten months before (pre-Germany) would have told you he didn't like beer. I had only begun my education in beer. I was happy, though, that I was not the one who had to drive from that point on!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:45 AM

*sigh*...haven't had a Cooper's in years. The importers make business decisions on criteria other than taste.

I get good beer, but I do miss some things.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM

Dave-O ... 17% ... jeeeezuz H. !!! ... at that kick it should be classified as 'hard liquor'

biLL

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: woodsie
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 09:27 PM

Aaagh - I'd love a pint right now!!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:36 AM

No time to read the whole thread (not seen before by me) but you can get real lager too. It's just that most of the rubbish lager in yer average pub isn't real.

Me, I stick to real ale if I can get it. Or real cider. Otherwise I usually drink Guinness.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 10:19 AM

http://i15.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/82/90/e9_1.JPG

Are not "real ales" unpasteurized, and therefore somewhat cloudy as opposed to the clear ales the big breweries put out because people don't want to drink cloudy beer? Any unpasteurized real ales I've tasted have been delicious.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: eddie1
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:08 AM

A couple of weeks ago, there was chaos here (Reading UK) due to a chemical leak at a large Scottish Courage brewery resulting in seven employees being admitted to hospital and the neighbouring motorway being closed for several hours. The chemical in question was ammonia which goes a long way to explain why their lager tastes like piss.

Having read above about other additives going into beer, would it not be possible for breweries to produce a decent, unadulterated brew. Pubs could then provide on the bar, dishes containing maize, rice, sugar, betaglucanase, propylene glycol alginate and rat droppings together with jugs of urine which drinkers could then add to their personal preference.
This way, we would have a choice of taste instead of having to accept what the large breweries foist on us.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:24 AM

In our 'green' and pleasant modern society, it surely can't be long before the big brewers try to tell us the reason they manufacture (they sure don't brew it) pseudo-lager under license in the UK is to 'reduce the carbon footprint' by not having to import it! 'Cos we all know they have our best interests at heart…

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:26 AM

A couple of weeks ago, there was chaos here (Reading UK) due to a chemical leak at a large Scottish Courage brewery resulting in seven employees being admitted to hospital and the neighbouring motorway being closed for several hours. The chemical in question was ammonia which goes a long way to explain why their lager tastes like piss.

If it wasn't in poor taste (like Courage beer), I would say it gave them a dose of their own medicine. But I won't :-)

I'm old enough to remember the original Courage brewery in Reading (formerly Symonds, before being gobbled up by Courage and eventually being closed down when they built that monstrous fizz factory on the M4). That Reading ale used to be damn good stuff, and it's what I was weaned on. I used to drink their ales in Hants and Berks, and when I went up to London I was surprised to find the ale tasted worse, not realising at first that the London stuff came from the Southwark brewery (also long gone now). It was before CAMRA was started, and the time I realised there was more to this real ale lark than I had previously thought.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:32 AM

Are not "real ales" unpasteurized, and therefore somewhat cloudy as opposed to the clear ales the big breweries put out because people don't want to drink cloudy beer? Any unpasteurized real ales I've tasted have been delicious.

Not true - I only normally go to pubs that serve real ale. If the person in charge of the beer is doing their job then there should be no cloudiness whatsoever. This takes a certain modicum of skill.

If the beer arrives in sealed metal dustbins, this does not take any amount of skill.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,John Courage
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 09:09 PM

Yes I bought up all the decent brewries Symonds of Reading, Barclay Perkins of Southwark, John Smith Of Tadcaster. Ha ha!!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Harry Truman
Date: 11 Feb 07 - 09:12 PM

Yes you scotch, french, protestant hybrid. You messed up the irish invention (whiskey) and likewise the Englsh one (beer) Charles Mopps is rolling in his grave!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:13 AM

Well, John Courage, what goes around comes around. I see your ale is now made by a former rival brewery. The ale must have moved about 5 or 6 times now. No wonder it never tastes the same twice.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:38 AM

Real ale definately,lager gives me terrible heartburn.Love old peculiar.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM

Love to you too, Old Peculiar :-)

Actually the beer's spelt "Old Peculier" - but I agree, it's good stuff! Could do with a pint of that right now. Or even XB would do... OK, Best then...? :-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:40 PM

Here we see a good example of opinions being put forth as facts. Personally, I couldn't care less how it is brewed,what they put in it or how it gets from the cellar to the bar! It all smacks of snobbery to me.

I drink Heinekens as a rule, but I also like Guinness and Fosters, and the only FACT here is, it doesn't matter a damn what I prefer!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Hearsay
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:16 PM

Well sed Felicity!!!
The only intelligent comment on dis tread!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:17 AM

Personally, I couldn't care less how it is brewed,what they put in it or how it gets from the cellar to the bar!

Maybe you have the same attitude to what you eat. I like to know what I'm eating or drinking, so I prefer to find out as much as I can about 'what they put in it'.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:04 AM

Of course not. Apparently I wasn't clear. I don't care if they use two pounds of hops or two and 7/8. Assuming it is fit for humans to begin with, I just don't see what the fuss is. You either like it or you don't, and one opinion is as good as another's.We are not dealing with facts here.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

Ah, Kendall, the 'fuss' is that advertising and commercial profiteering have foisted some abominable stuff off as beer & ale. It is often the case that folks will get 'used' to the mass-market stuff without realizing what it SHOULD be. Sometimes it is hard (in certain areas) to even find a decent selection to make comparisons.

It is a bit like eating plain white bread (Wonder bread is classic example in USA) and then discovering all the myriad types of preservative free whole-grain treats that can be found with a bit of trouble. Naturally, if price is important and the selection is limited, compromises must be made, but first, you have to KNOW what is available, and these discussions spread the word.

    For those who do care and enjoy the search for 'better', these discussions can help....

If you are happy with Heineken's and Fosters...fine....but you probably prefer them to Budweiser or Iron City- and for good reason. There are similar reasons to look even beyond Heineken..etc....but as you say, it IS a matter of taste...if you don't HAVE any taste, it doesn't matter....*big grin as I dodge behind the door*

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:01 AM

Well, I guess I don't have to bother saying that I don't have any taste when it comes to beer.

Now, when it comes to Whiskey, that's another story.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:35 AM

Well, some people don't care what goes into their beer and that's fair enough. But that's no reason to criticise others who do take an interest in it, IMO. I'm biased though, because I happen to find ale an interesting subject - although I'd still rather drink it than talk about it... cheers!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:08 AM

I agree with Kendall that often there is a snobbery. It is one thing to talk about the style among afficionados, but you can often find an inbred snobbery there. The whole idea of "ale" versus "lager" is an example of that.   Those who denigrate "lager" have a limited education and exposure to the style. They were indoctrinated to believe that "real ale" is the only way to go. in reality, they fall victim to the same sort of media campaign that makes Bud the #1 selling beer across the planet.

You like what you like.   If you are a home brewer you might have interest in the ingredients and the preparation, but if you are simply a consumer it doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:45 AM

Well, I agree with what you sat Ron, but the title of the thread is a little misleading, because lager can be 'real ale' too. Most of the beer sold as lager in the UK is not 'real' (in the 'real ale' sense), but some is. And of course there are many examples of what could be called 'real' lager in Germany, Belgium, etc., and in the US.

Real ale drinkers are not (IME) usually motivated by any kind of snobbery, but by the fact that they regard real ale as better quality than the fizzy keg stuff.

That's not to say there aren't some snobs around though, as there is with almost anything else (wine, certain types of food, music, etc., etc....)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:57 AM

The one problem I have is that people on your side of the pond seem to equate beer with lager and not realize that ale is also beer.

To give it a food analogy, it is like saying "chicken". You can serve it broiled or fried, but it is still chicken. You may enjoy it prepared one way or the other and that is perfectly reasonable - but they are both methods of preparing the same bird. Beer is both ale and lager.

"Real" is also a misnomer. It is a style and a method of serving. The "ale" family has stouts, Imperial stouts, pale ale, India pale ale, cream ale, and many other varieties.

Everyone has a favorite. Depending on the time of day and what I might be having with my meal, I may have a different favorite. After mowing the lawn, I love a good lightly-hopped lager. On a cool spring night give me a nice hoppy bock. When the snow if falling, I'm partial to a good stout.

Now I am thirsty again.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

The one problem I have is that people on your side of the pond seem to equate beer with lager and not realize that ale is also beer.

Hmmm, interesting that you should think that. I agree that "ale" and "beer" mean the same thing, basically. "Beer" is probably used here in a more generic way than "ale" though - people might call a lager a beer but I don't think they would usually call it an ale

Most people over here think "lager" is a particular type of beer, a pale ("blonde") coloured beer, usually served chilled, and refreshing in hot weather.

People tend to use the term "ale" for bitters, winter beers, stouts, milds, porters, etc.

These terms are not strictly definitions, but I was just trying to explain how they are generally used here.

Hey, I'm thirsty too, now - must be catching! :-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:23 PM

I find it very interesting that you would not call an ale a beer!   To me that is like someone saying that Pinot Noir is not a wine!

For beer, the basic difference is the type of yeast that is used and the temperature it is brewed. Of course the taste will be different, but there is no other difference in the product. Except for varieties, you are not adding anything different to a lager or an ale. (Yes, you can add things to either.)

Lagers actually require more care and time to produce, which may be a reason why ale became so popular. Lagers are also less forgiving of mistakes in the brewing process and do not mask the problems as many ales do.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:11 PM

Nomenclature needs to reflect more than ambiguous local usage. Ale IS beer...a particular type of beer. It is fine to call Porter or Stout beer, as, like Ale, they are subdivisions....but to call one subdivision by the name of another just invites confusion.

I have no doubt that those who organized CAMRA fully intended to promote 'traditional' Porter & Stout also, but the acronym would not have been so tidy. CAMRABP?CAMPRAB?

Speaking of ales, I have a STRONG Winter ale I have been saving for a day like this...snowed in!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM

I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to explain. It is not ambiguous local usage, unless your pubs only serve one type of beer.

Saying "I'll have an ale" would be like walking into a restaurant I'll have chicken. How would you like it cooked? From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands, so you might not have much choice.   Here in the U.S. if you ask for an "ale", you would need to qualify it - do you want a bitter, a pale ale, a mild ale, an IPA, a stout, a porter, barley wine, etc.

Your CAMRA actually does promote ALL traditional styles of ale. CAMRA promoted traditional styles of beer and serving. Here in the U.S. we did not have such an organized campaign, but businessmen like Fritz Maytag kept alive such brews as Anchor Steam and help start a "microbrew" revolution.

You actually have more choices available to you in the United States than in any other country in the world. It is not just Bud and Coors. There are more diverse styles being brewed here than you could possibly imagine.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:43 PM

uhh..Who are you replying to, Ron? All *I* was saying...trying to agree with you and explicate even more... was that it is good to be accurate in what one calls stuff. I am in the US. Are we missing each other's point?

Anyway, I know about Maytag and Anchor Steam...etc...I even had a bottle of beer (Porter) from the New Albion brewery, usually considered to be the first real micro-brewery to start up after WWII.
When I lived in Kansas, prior to 1977, good beer was 'mostly' imported, and almost NEVER got to Kansas. In the mid-70s though, it began to change, and now, as you say Ron, we have amazing choices!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:20 PM

Sorry Bill, maybe I did miss your point. You confused me when you said "it is fine to call Porter or Stout beer, as, like Ale, they are subdivisions". You then made a statment about CAMRA which seemed to suggest the same.   Ale is not exactly a subdivision - porter and stout would be a subdivision of Ale.   I guess an another analogy would be cheese. Cheddar and Swiss are types of cheese, but there are different varieties of cheddar and Swiss as well.

It does get complicated and confusing!

Bill, if you are ever in the NJ area I will take you to Andy's Corner Bar in Leonia, a world famous beer bar that knows how to serve a good pint! First five rounds are on me!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Purple Sandpiper
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:56 AM

"Why do people who drink real ale walk (or stagger) around thinking they are superior to people who drink lager?

I'm posting this on a folk forum because there seems to be a huge % of real alers in that community."

Maybe Jeff Beck had the idea of starting this thread having seen the Wychwood Brewery 'Lager Boy' advert (bottom right hand side of webpage)???

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:59 AM

Last summer I had a discussion with a guy at a festival about Scotch. Somehow, I managed to piss him off, and he exclaimed "I'm an expert on Scotch." However, when I told him that I preferred Speyside to Islay he didn't know the difference, so he got shitty and said "So, you're the expert just because you've been there"!
When someone sticks his neck out it's hard to not step on it.

Now, I'm not saying I know a hell of a lot about whiskey;anymore than I know about beer. I know what I like and it's nothing more than my own opinion.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM

Well put Kendall! It is all about taste. Too many people respond to what they are told is good and cannot tell the difference.

Many people do feel that they are experts but it seems that they only react to ads. The Wychwood Brewery advert that Purple Sandpiper put up is a good example. I am sure the brewers at Wychwood realize that lager is complex and is not a tasteless brew, but they are serving a market that has been trained to believe that "ale" is superior. So, they come up with a clever campaign that works. The trained seals that are their consumers jump on it. Well done!

In actuality, many ales have less alchol content than lager and the flavors are not as complex as those in a well crafted lager. Many brewers cannot replicate lagers with any consistency so they stick to the easier brewed ales. As a homebrewer, I know that I cannot make a decent lager due to the lack of space for proper lagering. Ales can be easily made and it is why most home brewers stick to that style. You can make some very good beers by sticking to the ale family.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM

I find it very interesting that you would not call an ale a beer!   To me that is like someone saying that Pinot Noir is not a wine!

Er... sorry, but I didn't say that at all. I said:

Hmmm, interesting that you should think that. I agree that "ale" and "beer" mean the same thing, basically. "Beer" is probably used here in a more generic way than "ale" though - people might call a lager a beer but I don't think they would usually call it an ale

Most people over here think "lager" is a particular type of beer, a pale ("blonde") coloured beer, usually served chilled, and refreshing in hot weather.

People tend to use the term "ale" for bitters, winter beers, stouts, milds, porters, etc.

These terms are not strictly definitions, but I was just trying to explain how they are generally used here.

So, on the basis of what I said above, you could call an ale a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale. The term 'beer' is generic, as I said, and could conceiveably be used for any type of beer including lager, stout, porter, mild, bitter, or any other kind of ale.

Over here in the UK, I've never heard people use the term 'ale' when referring to lager, for example, so 'ale' is slightly less generic a term than 'beer', as far as modern day usage is concerned in the UK.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:43 AM

"So, on the basis of what I said above, you could call an ale a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale. The term 'beer' is generic, as I said, and could conceiveably be used for any type of beer including lager, stout, porter, mild, bitter, or any other kind of ale."

You COULD call any ale OR lager a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale or a lager.

Beer, ale and lager are all generic terms - ale and lager are types of beer and there are many types of ales and lagers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

Saying "I'll have an ale" would be like walking into a restaurant I'll have chicken. How would you like it cooked? From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands, so you might not have much choice.   Here in the U.S. if you ask for an "ale", you would need to qualify it - do you want a bitter, a pale ale, a mild ale, an IPA, a stout, a porter, barley wine, etc.

I've never known anyone here in the UK walk into a pub and order "an ale" - as you say, that would be pretty pointless.

It would be the same as you describe for the US - you would have to be more specific and say "a pint of bitter" or whatever. Some pubs may only stock one type of bitter so that would work. But if the pub stocks more than one bitter, you'd have to be more specific and say for example "a pint of Adnams bitter" or "a pint of Wherry" or whatever.

I think we're saying the same thing here?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:50 AM

Lagers actually require more care and time to produce, which may be a reason why ale became so popular. Lagers are also less forgiving of mistakes in the brewing process and do not mask the problems as many ales do.

True lager requires more time, yes. I understand the term 'lager' comes from the German word for 'to store', implying it's beer that's been stored for longer before being served.

But the stuff sold here in the UK as 'lager' is just cheap keg beer, artificially carbonated and made quickly from cheap ingredients and sold at premium prices. Many of the so-called 'lagers' here are inferior in quality to the equivalent strength bitters, but cost more, because they tend to be more heavily advertised.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:52 AM

You COULD call any ale OR lager a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale or a lager.

Beer, ale and lager are all generic terms - ale and lager are types of beer and there are many types of ales and lagers.

Agreed, Ron - we are saying the same thing :-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:54 AM

We MIGHT be saying the same think.   

Am I correct to assume that your pubs bascially have one "brand" of beer available? If I walk into a pub and ask for a pint I would be given whatever ale is available? In that case, the type of ale would be dependent on the brewer.

Bars in the U.S. usually have multiple taps, as well as bottles, available. If you walk into a U.S. bar and ask for a beer the bartender will ask "what kind?" Check out this website - andy's corner bar

This place is a local treasure.   It started out decades ago as a corner bar - formica tops, locals, standard commerical beers.   A number of years ago the owner decided to try a few "different" brands. The idea took off and now the bar is a mecca for good beer sampling. Tiny place, but great beer with knowledgeable personnel that knows how to serve.

While Andy's has more than the normal amount of beers available, most U.S. bars will have several choices available.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

"But the stuff sold here in the UK as 'lager' is just cheap keg beer, artificially carbonated and made quickly from cheap ingredients and sold at premium prices."

Then the U.K. is getting screwed.   

That would be like serving Velvetta and saying that is what cheese is supposed to taste like.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

Most pubs have several brands. Clubs often have a narrower selection - one keg beer and one lager - but pubs generally have at least three lagers and two bitters.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Free Houses,that is to say Pubs not owned by a brewery, almost invariably have a much wider selection of beers than tied houses (Pubs which are owned by a brewery)
Free houses are usually better Pubs all round.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

So I assume that if you walked into a "free house" you would have to be a bit more specific than "give me a pint"?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:09 AM

Yup.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM

Far and away the best Free House is The Mudcat Tavern.
Licensee LTS.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MaineDog
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM

Harpoon IPA for me!
MD

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

Talking of free houses: The UK pub sector has, since the 1980s, been complicated by the arrival of the pub chain or 'pubco'.

The UK government introduced new laws (known as the "Beer Orders") in the late 1980s to try to counteract the then oligopoly of the handful of large brewers that controlled the vast majority of UK pubs. The laws included limits on how many pubs a brewer could own. The idea was to try to free up the market, especially in areas of the country where a large brewer had a virtual monopoly, because they had gradually bought out all the competitors in the area.

Some of the large brewers did the decent thing and sold off pubs above the limit to smaller companies, while others cynically swapped pubs for breweries, so that Company A took over Company B's breweries, in exchange for Co. A's pubs - so we had a huge brewery with no pubs, and a huge pub company with no breweries of its own. Neither co. was breaking the new law. Of course, they had also agreed as part of the deal that "Brewco" would exclusively supply "Pubco's" pubs with beer. This was something the govt hadn't anticipated (perhaps short-sightedly, with the benefit of hindsight).

Then during the 1990s, some of the old breweries sold off their pubs to third parties (including Japanese banks and the like) to form new 'pubcos' - pub owning companies.

These pubs in theory were 'free houses' in that they weren't tied to any brewery. But being so large, they are able to exert strong pressure on breweries to supply them with beer at low prices. They then supply their supposedly 'free' pubs with these ales. Any brewery not on the approved list can't sell their beers in the chain's pubs. Smaller breweries in particular can't afford to supply the beers to the chains at the low prices they demand. At least one brewery (Brakspear) went bust by trying to undercut their competitors in this way (the company was later taken over and saved, after a fashion).

These pubco companies have been gradually acquiring more pubs, or taking over smaller chains, with the result that the genuine free houses (those without any tie to any other company) have almost disappeared. There are a small number of large chains that now own most of the country's pubs - not a lot different from the bad old days in many ways.

So, there are two types of free house: the genuinely free house, perhaps owned by the landlord, who is free to choose what beer he sells; and the 'pubco' free house, that can't.

Whenever I can, I try to support the 'real' free houses - I'd liek to see the law changed to prevent chains from calling their pubs free houses, but I haven't seen much interest from CAMRA in doing this.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:36 AM


You'd have to be more specific in any pub, even a tied house. You'd always be asked, "A pint of what?" as they pointed to the taps.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

Yes, because even the worst-stocked pubs would have at least a bitter and a lager. Then they could have cider or Guinness on tap (cider is also drunk by the pint here).

So just asking for a pint would be no good.

The exception would be if you are a regular in the pub and you always drink the same thing. Then the barman would probably know what you drank and sometimes you wouldn't even need to order - he would start pouring out your beer as soon as you walk in.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

I have drunk some excellent lagers in Europe but none in the UK and reports of American and Australian lagers are that they are a totally tastless fizzy drink served so cold that they shrivel your fillings.
I just prefer a decent pint (or several) of warm ale when I can get it/them.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

My undersatnding of the difference between ale and beer ties in with some others I have seen including pepysdiary.com which says -

"Difference between Ale and Beer:
Officially beer is hopped and ale isn't, but that distinction isn't strictly observed. Hops preserve beer, as well as giving it its bitter flavour. Kent is the region of England famed for its hops, but Pepys talks of Margate (in Kent) ale as though it is famous, so the difference seems already to have been lost by 1660. (why brew a hopless ale in a hop growing region?)
Nowadays ale is used to refer to top fermented bitter (British) beers, as compared to bottom fermented lager (American, German, Australian, etc.) beers. That meaning would not have been valid in Pepys' time as true lagers only appeared in the 19th century"

So, beer and ale are not necessarily the same!

Interesting that Pinot Noir should be used as an example. Why use Noir (black) and Gris (grey) rather than Rouge or Blanc like other wine varieties? Because it is named after the grape so, strictly speaking again, Pinot Noir is not a wine - it is a grape! The most famous example of wines made from that being Burgundy.

Cheers (hic)

Dave in pedantic mode:-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

Sorry Dave, that description expired in 1664.   

There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it "ale" makes it somehow better. Wrong!! Ale is beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

"Ale is Beer" All ales are beers but most beers are not ales.
The distinction outlined by Dave is still in use and still valid.
"There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it ale makes it somehow better"
Sorry WFDU I recognise all of the words in that "sentence" but in that configuration I cannot ascertain their meaning.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

Yes, originally (many centuries ago, I can't remember when but it doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion) the term 'ale' referred to unhopped beer, and 'beer' was hopped. The latter was an idea brought across to Britain from the continent, that was adopted in Britain because the hops' preservative properties gave the ale a longer shelf life.

But gradually the distinction between ale and beer was lost, and the two terms came to mean the same thing (partly because hardly any beer was made unhopped after a while, once hopping of beer in the UK became widespread and people had acquired the taste).

As we discussed higher up this thread, Ron, I was trying to explain that although the two terms mean the same thing literally, in today's everyday usage in the UK at least, it seems that 'beer' is a more generic term that can be used to cover any type of beer, whether it's lager, stout, bitter, draught [draft] or bottled, etc.

Whereas 'ale' has a more limited usage. For example, I've never heard anyone call a keg lager an 'ale' - yes, you could, but no-one does. I'm talking about the usage of the words, not their dictionary definitions.

I didn't say anything about 'ale' being 'better' than 'beer', and I can't see that Dave did. I agree with you that to claim so that would be incorrect. I don't know where you got that impression from, Ron, but I don't believe most people here (us 'Brits') believe that at all, i.e. that something called 'ale' is better than something called 'beer'.

You seem to have inferred that without it having been said, unless I missed something?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:40 AM

Sorry Alec, I will try to type slower in the future.

Ale is beer. Lager is beer. Ale and Lager are beers. If Dave's distinction were true what you would be drinking would not contain hops. It does.

From what I am reading in thses posts, it seems that most of you folks living in the UK feel that "beer" is lager. Lager is merely a type of beer, just as ale is.


"I didn't say anything about 'ale' being 'better' than 'beer', and I can't see that Dave did"
Scrump, I realize that you are saying that ale and beer are the same thing, but the others do not seem to be saying that at all. No one would call keg lager an ale, that would not make sense. No one would call a keg of ale a lager either. Both are kegs of beer.

There still seems to be a reluctance to that fact when people say things such as "beer and ale are not necessarily the same."   Ale is beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:00 AM

If you read the full definition I posted, Ron, you will see that the writer agrees with what you say. So do I. At the end of the definition it says, "Nowadays ale is used to refer to top fermented bitter (British) beers, as compared to bottom fermented lager (American, German, Australian, etc.) beers. That meaning would not have been valid in Pepys' time as true lagers only appeared in the 19th century". Which I would also agree with.

I am not sure of your statement - "Wrong! Ale is beer." though. It suggests that the American language definition and by association your own is somehow better than anyone elses. I am sure you are right and I have no wish to argue personaly but to argue with the generic 'Brit' that either the American language or American brewing industry is somehow better than the longer established English one is, in my opinion, somewhat foolhardy:-)

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

Dave, I guess we do have a problem with the language barrier.

What is confusing the hell out of me is that there seems to some sort of distinction being made that is coming out as "ale is not beer".   It has nothing to do with American or British brewing.   Ale is beer, pure and simple. Every country that brews beer would recognize that, yet there still seems to be a reluctance - even when you are supposedly ageeing with me.   Ale is a style of beer.

As to which brewing industry is doing a better job, it isn't age that determines skill. There are simply more craft brewers in the United States who are doing wonderful things with a variety of styles. Many styles that would have otherwise been forgotten have been resurrected. If you ever get to this side of the Atlantic, I will be happy to give you a taste test. I am sure if you tasted some of our pale ales, IPA's and bitters you would see the difference.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:27 AM

Yes, ale and beer are defined as the same thing. I'm just trying to explain that in the UK (it may be different in the US) the terms have different nuances in meaning, i.e. in everyday usage of the terms in the UK. These nuances are nothing to do with quality, just the type of ale or beer being referred to.

So, here you can call any beer (including stout, porter, mild, bitter, fruit beer, light ale, dark ale, lager, etc., etc., etc.) a beer. But you wouldn't normally call some of these 'ales' (even if technically it might be correct to so so).

It's nothing to do with quality, it's just custom or convention. So calling something an 'ale' doesn't necessarily imply that it's higher quality than if you call it beer (which is what Ron seemed to think we were saying earlier).

It's just that certain types of beer would not be called 'ales'. The example I gave was keg lager. Yes, you could call it ale, but no-one does, to my knowledge.

So all ales are beers, but not all beers are ales, in our usage of the terms, even if the dictionary says the two terms mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:41 AM

I think we are saying the same thing, in different words.

I NEVER, EVER said that all beer would be called ale. I am not sure where that came from.

I would not call a keg lager an ale. I would call a keg ale an ale, I would call a keg lager a lager.

All ales are beers, but not all beers are ales.

All lagers are beers, but not all beer is lager.

Ale and lager are beers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:53 PM

During a 2 week stay in the St Louis Area I only managed to visit 2 micro breweries (1 in St Louis and 1 in St Charles, Illinois) but I was lucky enough to sample beers from at least 10 different ones:-) They are by far the best I have tried for a long time and have a bigger range than most in the UK. Only in Belgium did I find a better range of equivalent beers. I was there over 3 months though:-) Maybe if I stopped in the US that long I would find that it surpasses even the Belgians!

I am not disputing anything about the quality of US beer, Ron, and I don't think anything I said suggested otherwise. Sorry if it came across that way. The whole point is that there are probaby as many different views on this are there are beers (or ales)! None is right or wrong. They are just different. Taking an absolute standpint on this is aking to trying to tell everyone here what real folk music is - No one will ever agree.

The funny thing is that I generaly agree with your definitions but there are exceptions, particulary where you allow for the peculiarity of language. Adams ale is certainly not a beer by any stretch of the imagination;-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:14 PM

Dave, next time you are in the states we can sit down and discuss it over a few pints!! I would be honored to buy you a few rounds and let you sample our best!

Belgian ale is hard to beat because the natural yeast and methods, and style is difficult to reproduce in another country. We do have a very good brewery that is brewing "Belgian style" ale - Ommergang.

I did not mean to say that U.S. beers surpass others. Some do. Some do not. Overall, the U.S. microbrew industry has done an excellent job at boosting these styles and quality.   I do think that we have more opportunities and create some very unique beers. Read Michael Jackson's work (not the pop star - the U.K. based beer and whiskey critic) and he will confirm.    There are outstanding beers all over the globe. Most people think of Bud and Coors when they think of U.S. beer and that is wrong!   I have to admit to buy both - they work great on keeping slugs out of the garden.

I sort of see your point about the usage of language. From a culinary point of view I do stand by what I've said. Local usage may vary, but it doesn't mean it is right - just hard to change.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

Yer on, Ron, Ron, Ron
Yer on, Ron, Ron

(To add a musical flavour)

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 08:45 AM

Hey, Ron - I agree with your post above (11:41 AM)

Maybe I'll join you guys for a beer... Cheers! :-D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ref
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Spent ten days in Gloucestershire-Cheltenham area last spring. Got LOTS of real ale inside me. No hangovers or big heads involved, maybe because of the real ale, maybe because of the surprisingly superb food served alongside. Here in USA I brew my own, but there's lots of good micro ales available. Mass market American beer is actually brewed to very exacting standards. Being mass market, though, they can't get too heavily onto distinctive flavors. After years of homebrew, the MM beers just taste light and sweet to me, but they're great cold quenchers when you're hot and sweaty.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,scientist
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 09:15 PM

Most real ale drinkers are hypocrites.

A mate of mine makes a big deal out of "real ale" sneering at my lovely pint of Fosters saying "It's full of chemicals" whilst I know for a fact that he lives on a diet of cheap sausages, pies and McDonalds.

Small groups of bearded scruffs congregate in my local pub whingeing about "It's a bit cloudy" "Tastes a bit off" "It's the end of the barrel" "It's a new barrel" "They don't serve a lot, so it's a bit stale" What a load of shite - they should not make excuses for stuff they have paid good money for, they should take it back to the bar and ask for a replacement or a refund.

I came upon another two friends at a new session started in a new venue. They both had long faces. "they haven't got any REAL ale, so we won't be coming here again" I have known these two for abot 5 years they usualy drink no more than a coke and a shandy, sometimes bottled water and a wine spritzer - what a load of bollox.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 07:43 AM

Most lager drinkers are hypocrites.

A mate of mine makes a big deal out of "Lager" sneering at my lovely pint of Holts saying "It's full of live yeast" whilst I know for a fact that he lives on a diet of muesli, cottage cheese and health food.

Small groups of desgner labelled cretins congregate in my local pub whingeing about "It's a bit cloudy" "Tastes a bit off" "It's the end of the barrel" "It's a new barrel" "They don't serve a lot, so it's a bit stale" What a load of shite - they should not make excuses for stuff they have paid good money for, they should take it back to the bar and ask for a replacement or a refund.

I came upon another two friends at a new session started in a new venue. They both had long faces. "they haven't got any fizzy crap, so we won't be coming here again" I have known these two for abot 5 years they usualy drink more than a gallon of Robinsons and a quart of Old Peculiar, sometimes bottled Hobgoblin and a good Chablis - what a load of bollox.

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 12:28 AM

here we go again.

If someone said they love cheese but will only eat cheddar, or if they love seafood but only eat swordfish, then they have a very limited perspective and probably lack tastebuds.   They know what they like, and that is great, but they truly are not able to comment on the qualities of other styles.    Same with those who only drink ale or only drink lager - there is a lack of taste to understand what you are really drinking.   Enjoy it, but realize that your world is limited.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Scientist
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

Nice one dave

:)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 04:44 AM

Glad you liked it, Scientist - I appreciated the irony of yours as well. You know what they say - Imitation is the best form of flattery;-)

Dave

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Mick Woods
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

I'm thirsty again!!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:52 PM

I grew up in Edinburgh drinking pints of Heavy, then moved to Geordieland, where I drank pints of Scotch. Moved to London where it was bitter till I started just asking for what it said on the label. Had a summer job at Scottish & Newcastle, where the only ammonia was for flushing the pasteuriser at the end of every week's run on the bottling plant.

I started drinking on a school trip to Köln, and still have a fondness for a füftel of Kölsch. I've never liked bland beers, so I've never taken to Bud. Budweiser is a different matter entirely, and my favourite lager is Staropranem dark, which I seem to have to go to Prague for since Tesco stopped stocking it. Just finished a rather nice bottle of Blue Moon (Belgian style wheat beer from North America - 5.4%).

It's thanks to CAMRA that I started drinking lagers after having been put off by things like Eau de Dundalk (Harp), though fortunately I knew better than be put off ales by such monstrosities as Red Barrel and Tartan.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:52 AM

If you are a home brewer you can make a very acceptable lager using one of the 40 pint lager kits, but use a proper lager yeast rather than whatever is supplied with the kit, and add some Saaz or Hallertau hops. Brew it in the winter so it can ferment at a lower temperature and allow a period of cold storage (lagering).

Makes an excellent brew for the hot summer days...

Pete.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:03 AM

Surely the difference between real ale and lager is that lager passes through the body in an unchanged state!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 06:56 AM

Hi

This thread is a typical Mudkats thread that can create hundreds of comments where none of them are right except for the poster of the message.

Most of the replies to this one ( there are some exceptions ) assume a generality that beers are better than lagers.

The trhread was posted because of a link with folk music. This link was one that raises it's head here almost every day - that if folk music is only good if it is traditional and that it is in some way superior to anything else.

I have played and listened in folk clubs all over Europe for more years than I care to remember and sadly I have to agree with the people who say that Traditionists appear to think themselves superior and the centre of the Universe.

There much beautiful and great traditional stuff but there is also fantastic music that is looked down on by the " trad folkies ".

It's the same with beer and lager - not all beer is great and not all lager is crap.

But Jeff is right there does seem to be a preponderance of traditionists who also drink real ale and DO appear to think themselves superior to the rest of us that have different and differing tastes.

cheers

Now for a pint.....doon't care if it's beer or lager....as long as it is good.

Mike

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:55 AM

Lager is beer isn't it? I believe the name derives from the process 'lagering' which involves fermentation at a cooler temperature, for a longer period. I made it my mission, while in Belgium for 3 months, to try as many Belgian beers as possible - And note that they are called beers there. They were almost all good and varied from the almost black heavy brews, through the red 'Roden' beers to the palest of what are generaly described as lagers. The tastes were even more varied. The most avoided, apart from by a few, was Stella Artois!

DeG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 03:30 AM

The trouble in the UK is that [ almost ] all the lagers on sale in pubs are steralised nitrokeg, chilled to death so you can't tell how flavourless it is, if you can find a ' real ' lager they are indeed very good to drink.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:13 AM

I think a lot of it is both the drinkers attitude and the licenced trade's attitude to them. Drink is not for savouring it is for getting pissed as quick as possible and making loads of dosh for the trade. Fizzy nitrokeg, of both the lager and ale varieties, keep well, are easy to serve and make the money. The advantage for the pissheads is that it goes down well and has the desired effect. Unfortunate but borne out, particularly by the under 25s, in every city cetre, every weekend:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:29 AM

"From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands"

These days, most UK pubs will have at least three hand-pulled, cask-conditioned beers. Some will have half a dozen or so. And there will, of course, also be the fizzy, pressurised draught stouts (Guinness or Murphy's) and lagers. White beers such as Hoegaarden and continental lagers such as Leffe also seem to be springing up everywhere.

Choice may seem limited in relative terms, but there isn't so much of a bottled beer culture in the UK as there is in America (though ironically, the one beer you always see in bottles in UK pubs, Newcastle Brown, is commonly available on draught in America these days). As with food, I actually prefer a smaller choice that's kept and served well to a huge menu which might not be as well-kept or as fresh.

"Here in the U.S. if you ask for an "ale", you would need to qualify it - do you want a bitter, a pale ale, a mild ale, an IPA, a stout, a porter, barley wine, etc."

Well, no one really goes into a pub and asks for "an ale" in the UK, to be honest. You ask for a pint of bitter, a pint of mild, a pint of IPA, etc. Re the choice of beers in America: yes, it's got better. Unfortunately, the beer is then served so cold, often in those ridiculous frozen glasses, that you can't taste the subtle differences between the various microbrews anyway. In my experience, the microbrew culture in the US also very much depends on where you live and the pubs/bars you frequent. So yes, if you are a beer enthusiast you can certainly find many more decent beers in American pubs these days than you could 20 years ago, but those pubs still are the exception rather than the rule in the places I visit when I go home (I spend most of my time in Long Island and New Jersey, but in recent years have also visited the Carolinas).

When I go into a pub or bar in the States, I usually say, "Give me the darkest beer you've got that's not Guinness." Bass is fairly common, as is this fizzy, cold, draught Newkie Brown. But often the best they can do is something like Yuengling, which is a fairly uninteresting lager, IMHO. And even the darker beers most pubs/bars serve tend not to be cask conditioned real ales, but processed, carbonated keg versions. Presumably that's because keeping cask conditioned beer is a tricky business, and you really need a qualified cellarman to do the job. But the difference in the character of the beer is huge.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:34 AM

"From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands"

We are lucky in Sheffield but on the annual count of different beers on sale in Sheffield I seem to remember it comes to around 150 different beers available on "that" weekend each year.

All the pubs I go in have a range. (Except Sam Smith's pubs - but that is another story - and the beer is only around £1.40 around $0.80 for a pint. It isn't normal!!)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Stu
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:38 AM

Seven or so on handpump, plus Westons cider and a straight-from-the-farm cider in a plastic container in our local. There is a rumour that the landlord is gong to take the fizzy key urine lagers off altogether.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:05 AM

"There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it "ale" makes it somehow better. Wrong!! Ale is beer."

I think part of the confusion comes from the distinction between what is termed "real ale" (as in the Campaign for Real Ale) in the UK and processed, carbonised "tap" beers. What we call "real ale" often IS a superior product. It is cask-conditioned. It is alive, and once delivered it has to be left alone to settle for a period of time before the cask can be tapped. It is a more artesan product. Even the way it is served - through hand-pull pumps - is different to the electronic taps for other types of beer. This is a very different product from keg beers, which are injected with chemicals to make them fizzy, and where the priority is in making the product as stable as possible for transport and convenience.

I would hasten to add that you can buy very nice hand-pulled, cask-conditioned lagers. You can also buy crappy keg bitters off the tap (John Smith's Smooth, anyone?). So it's not about style - it's about method.

The joy of real ale is that every pub is an adventure. You try different products with widely varying tastes and characters. Some are rubbish, I'll admit, but many are sublime.

Ron, the tendency to use the word "ale" or the term "real ale" is because, like folk, beer drinking had its own revival in the UK. From what I've been told it was in a pretty parlous state back in the 70s (I have heard of, but never experienced, the joys of Watney's Red Barrel and the Party Seven). The Real Ale movement was a concerted effort to bring beer drinking back to its roots and to rehabiltate the image and the culture of beers that were British in character, as the market was being overrun by homogenous imported lagers and poor-quality keg beers. So maybe that's why people seem a bit chippy. :)

I love real ale. I even love that it has its own mythology and heritage - has anyone ever heard of a thunderstorm turning the beer?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:35 AM

Ruth I refer you to' The Tale Of Ale ' and two tracks, Andrew Boorde On Ale and Andrew Boorde On Beer, he subtly explains the difference.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

I don't mind a pint or two of "Real Ale" although I have drunk some that seem to have travelled through the landlords kidneys before it came to me . I can also enjoy a pint of English Keg Beer and in the Boston area of the U.S.I like a Sam Adams .I'm easy. What pisses me off is the Real Ale brigade constantly bangin' on about how great a paticular real ale is as opposed to the mass produced stuff!. I travel to Stockton-on -Tees once a year to visit an old shipmate who is prepared to travel miles to some obscure pub to drink one pint of "Old Dogs Bollocks" or some other quaintly named beer. Personally I like the ol' pint of Smithwicks here in Ireland. I have even sampled it in America !But beware!it was vile!.
Local beers in Austria are generally fine.No after taste and no hangovers !

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

"Personally I like the ol' pint of Smithwicks here in Ireland. I have even sampled it in America !But beware!it was vile!.

I had it on tap at an Inn in West Virginia, and it was fine.... so I bought some in bottles here in Maryland, and it WAS vile. Maybe it was old....I dunno, but I won't take chances again.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 05:45 PM

I knew somebody somewhere must be drinking Smithwicks. We took a band to Ireland years ago when they had a promotion on - a pint and a half (30 flozs) for the price of a pint with a free glass, and still nobody would buy it, apart from us, just to get the glass, then back to the Guinness! Is it much different from Kilkenny?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 08:46 PM

Leave it to the Scots:

Tactical Nuclear Penguin

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 05:31 AM

I think Smithwicks and Kilkenny are about the same.Have you ever tried the old Wexford brew now sold in the States as George Killian's Red Ale ?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM

Smithwicks and Kilkenny are similar, as they are brewed in the same brewery...... (When I sued to work in Ireland years ago, you could only get Smithwicks if you didn't want stout, (well in most bars anyway.) It just about made it palatable if you had a Guinness top.

Regarding the actual debate....

Ale vs lager?

That's like saying roast beef vs custard.

They all have their place. I drink bitter most of the time, (also love stout,) and sometimes if I am thirsty or in an Indian restaurant, I prefer lager.

Wasn't sure it was a competition. I don't like celery, but I don't compare it to a stick of Blackpool rock and sneer at people eating it!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:20 PM

" Wasn't sure it was a competition. I don't like celery, but I don't compare it to a stick of Blackpool rock and sneer at people eating it!"
Fair play Steamin' Willie, That's the point I was trying to make. These CAMRA types sneer at other people because they don't subscribe to the their idea of what is good beer and try to foist their opinion on you.
Are there such a thing as Ale or Beer Nazis?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 04:31 PM

Hands up! I like cold lager-beer. Usually get the German or Czech beers if at supermarket (and I do check the label for added unecessaries). On tap, it's a pint of wife beater. That'll be the ladette in me, which is definitely present under the influence.
Those White Beers are fantastic Summer drinks too.
Never got into real ale for some reason, though a tasty Stout I can enjoy - in moderation.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: HuwG
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 06:24 PM

CAMRA can, unfortunately, become Real Ale Nazis, but the fundamental point they made back in the 1970s is still as valid. Variety and quality of beer and pub service is under threat from homogenisation of the brewing industry and legislation which seems designed to target pubs and breweries.

The (British) government's knee-jerk reaction to, say, binge drinking among teenagers, has been to attack pubs, which they do not frequent, and impose ever-higher duties on draught beers and ales, which they do not drink, while leaving city centre bars which offer ridiculous deals on strong liqours, off-licences (corner shops which sell bottled and canned drink), and importers and distillers of ersatz vodka to flourish.

Many of the former tied pubs were acquired by "pubcos"; companies which manage chains of public houses. These pubcos seem determined to make every pub in Britain a carbon copy of some mock-Tudor template. They also have an unfortunate record of leaving the fabric of some pubs for which they cannot find tenant landlords willing to accept usurious terms of occupancy, to decline to the point where demolition is the only option.

Mercifully, some of the microbreweries are not only continuing to operate, but to flourish, with customers attracted by word of mouth and local interest.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Dec 09 - 08:56 PM

LOVED Smithwick's in Eire, is there a version available in US? I thought not but didn't consider domestic labeling.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 09:03 AM

CAMRA did have a valid argument for lobbying many years ago, and without them, local variety of ales would be a thing of the past.

However, there is a festival now and then at a pub near me and I do like to go down as I might bump into old mates. To see people treating it the same as train spotting with their pads and half pint glasses does put people off the idea of championing the cause of retaining real ales.

I think the word "real" needs dropping though as that causes the elitism that many of find either repulsive or mildly amusing, depending on whether you take it seriously or not.

Viz. comic sends CAMRA up a treat with a comic strip called something like "Real Ale Bores"

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 10:07 AM

I much prefer mead or cider.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 11:01 AM

Robomatic, As I said above I was surprised to find Smithwicks in an "Irish" pub in the States (Cape Cod, never saw it anywhere else in the US ) but it was vile!, probably there in the pipes for a long time.However Kilkenny or Killian's Red is not bad at all, perhaps it has a faster turnover? .The highlight of my trip though was seeing Gordon Bok playing at Wood's Hole.That made up for the days feeling seedy after the Smithwicks!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:35 PM

Smithwicks has never been that good...

When I was working in Ireland in the '80s, it was the only bitter you could get in many places. Most people had either a Guinness or lemonade top to it in order to make it palatable!

If it had changed by being a long time in the pipes, 10/1 it may have improved it...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MARINER
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:32 PM

Ah Willie, things have changed as lot in Ireland since the 8os. Smithwicks is a good pint no matter where you get it in the country. I've just had 5 or 6 pints of it tonight (oul seadogs renunion) and am feeling no pain.It's much better than it was in olden times !.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:25 AM

Must admit Mariner, I haven't tried giving it the benefit of the doubt yet... I am over fairly regularly either on business or seeing old friends and stick to the black stuff.

I might, just might, on your recommendation, try a pint at The Highwayman next month.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

I have begun to realise the thread title is somewhat misleading. I think what we are realy talking about is traditionaly brewed and kept beers versus the pasturised versions, often kept under pressure for ease of dispensing and preservation. Whether it is ale, beer, lager, stout, porter or any of the other variations is irrelevet realy as they all have both versions, and that preference is most likely a matter of personal taste.

There is nothing at all wrong with the nitrokeg version as long as it tastes good. That is often the issue though. It is consistantly good but very rarely great. Whereas the traditionaly brewed and kept versions are sometimes awful, usualy very good and often spectacular. Pretty much like most things. You will always get a good breakfast in a little chef but need to go to a truckstop, and risk disappointment, to find a great one. You will always find good music on a pub jukebox, but need to hear the occasional bad live act to find the mainly great performers in small clubs.

Like the folk club or jazz club image maybe you are right in saying that CAMRA need to update a little. It is the way of the world.

But what cider and mead got to do with a debate on real ale is beyond me...

DeG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 06:22 AM

I haven't had a good breakfast in a Little Chef for a long time. You usually find that most of it is ok, but there's always at least one item that they get spectacularly wrong!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Atlas reader
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM

Where can I get a decent pint of Fosters?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MikeL2
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:34 AM

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Atlas reader - PM
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM

"Where can I get a decent pint of Fosters? "

Try the nearest swimming pool.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:08 AM

Decent pint of Fosters ? oxymoron.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:13 AM

Looking at the posts from 4 years ago, there were some remarks about "Ale is Beer", "No it's not", etc. I distinctly remember that 1970s CAMRA regional guides stated "no real BEER" when a keg-only pub was mentioned. Looks like CAMRA started the confusion!

Incidentally, looks like the campaign against Grotneys started much earlier than the 1970s! Found this snippet about the first ads on ITV:

"During the live boxing match from Shoreditch a 'natural break' was taken between two rounds. The last advertisement before cutting back to the match was for Watney's Beer. The advert showed a row of beer tumblers emptying themselves unaided while the voiceover told viewers, "You try it." At this point the picture cut back to the boxing just as one of the fighters was spitting frenziedly into a bucket. One can only imagine the horror on the face of Watney's executives as they viewed their first TV commercial".

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:04 AM

After a folk-life wasted drinking the tepid horse-piss that passes for Real Ale, over the past year or so I have become a confirmed drinker of Beck's and Stella. Of course this puts me at a decided disadvantage in any Designated Folk Context where the drinking of tepid horse-piss is de-regeur, so what I've done is to buy myself an 18th century Pewter Tankard for purposes of camouflage. Forgive this subterfuge, but I was recently passed over at a singaround because I was drinking a pint of effervescent bier, it being assumed because I wasn't drinking ale that my presence there was somehow anomalous. Having alerted them to my Traddy status however I was invited to sing whereupon I regaled the company with a hearty rendering of Bring Us In Good Ale, though chance, as ever, would be a fine thing...

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM

"over the past year or so I have become a confirmed drinker of Beck's and Stella."

Welcome to the folk deviants club. I've *never* gained a taste for real ale. Stout I can and will do, but not in multiple pints. I'm definitely a confirmed "pint o' wife-beater" bird myself.

Mind you, I've also got a taste for that strong scrumpy which tastes like cool lemon water, but you don't get it on tap most places. Otherwise it's anything red and wet.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM

Mind you, my fella who taught me all about the sophisticated art of drinking Stella, reckons this IPA is the best he's ever tasted: St. Peter's IPA

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:15 PM

Folkies, you are drinking in the wrong pubs if you think that real beer is tepid hoss-piss. Anyway, as any fule kno, Stella's out of the same great big vat in Luton or Burton as Foster's, Bud, Carling, and all the others. That's why they have to be cooled to near absolute zero and advertised every 15 mins on TV.

OK so they were bottled, but on Sunday I enjoyed a pint of Black Sheep and a pint of Thwaites' which were as different from each other as chalk from cheese but equally splendid. Applies to their draught beer too.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:57 PM

My favourite beer is Dogfish Head 90 Minute Imperial IPA cos that's what's in my glass tonight, and tomorrow it will be ......

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

Ah, Dave.... you have taste! And so does your beer! Dogfish Head is a gem of a brewery.

It's not against the law to stick to beer/ale which is largely devoid of taste, but calling the suff that DOES have taste "tepid horse-piss" ought to call for 40 lashes with a wet noodle.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:13 AM

"tepid horse-piss"... So you're saying it's better if it's chilled so that you can't taste it?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:57 AM

I liked Paul Hogans Fosters adverts. Particularly the one where a Japanse man on the London underground asks him "Can you tell me the way to Cockfosters?"

"Yep," replies Paul, "drink it warm mate..."

Doesn't make the beer any better but it made me laugh:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 11:44 AM

I knew lots of Aussies in London in the 1970s & they all drank Swan!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Patsy Warren
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 06:54 AM

Some lagers are good, some are terrible and taste like metal. Some real ale doesn't do anything for me and then one or two of them have been really good. I don't normally drink Guiness but had some a while back at a St. Patrick night and it was served with shamrock and was really good the best I've had. As for cider I am liking the pear and blackberry ciders. I don't think there is any snobbism anymore with drink. Diversity is allowing people to have what they want and here in Bristol we do exactly that. I don't always chill white wine anymore or lager especially not in winter depends on how I feel at the time.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 05:14 PM

You will always get a good breakfast in a little chef

I disagree. Edible at best, in my limited experience.