BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Alba
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:51 AM

Now Rapaire the Big Dig isn't underway....it's completed. ta-da
Only thing is it is seems to be getting underway again as rumour has it they built the whole thing with Lego, upholstery pins and Mechano bits and it ain't holding up!

A little aside:
Do any of the Brit Mudcatters remember Frankie Howard and his TV Comedy series in the 70s called 'Up Pompeii'?.
Seems to me a few expressions from that show that could apply to the either come and gone or still to come Rap-ture!

This line from Howard's character Lurcio sums up those who are amused by the possiblity that SOME (quite a few it would seem) will be left behind.... "titter ye not missus!"

A few of the Characters I recall from the series: (Just for giggles at the names)
Ludicrus Sextus
Ammonia
Bilius
Voluptua
Prosperus Maximus
Scrubba
Erotica
Nausius
Odius
Villanus
There was one female Character who did a lot of "Woe is me"-ing on the Show. Anyone remember her name?

No offers of a free "Estate by the Sea" as yet...but I can wait, unlike the Rapturites that will be leaving us soon. Remember you can't take it with you...:)
Best Wishes,
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:36 AM

" It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it. Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it only ceased being taught (for some unknown reason) at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830 A.D. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century. This does not necessarily show that the teaching is wrong, but it does mean that thousands of eminent scholars who lived over a span of seventeen centuries (including some of the most astute of the "Christian Fathers" and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered as prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. "

More at:
Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM

To give a serious answer to your question, MMario: (Now if someone who is "saved" has a heart tranplant from a sinner - does the heart get left behind? Or is someone who is 'saved' had a liver donated and that liver is currently in a sinner - does the liver get assumed into heaven?)I have it on good authority that each transplanted part from and to each tranplantee(r) will instantly zip around and plunk itself into the original entity. Kind of like musical chairs, except it should come out even.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

I questioned my dog at some length, in case he had been Raptured and then rejected and sent back.

"What's it like in Heaven?" I asked him.

He belched, gave me an engimatic look, and refused to comment further.

My feeling is, he knows more than he's telling.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:43 PM

Don't they all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

Alba - all you ever wanted to know about Up Pompeii

From memory her name was Senna.

I've written an Ode about it...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 02:31 PM

Does the expression "suck up" have something to do with this?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

This is such a crock of weirdness I cannot begin to describe the crockness of it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM

That's very nice for you, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM

I have upset you, haven't I, Rapaire? I am sorry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:22 PM

Perhaps, Amos, but not sorry enough! Don't let him off easy, Rapaire. Make him crawl... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM

Rapture, Schmapture! I've met a fair number of fundies, and all I can say is that if it's only the fundies who are going to be in Heaven, I'd just as soon stay behind and dice it out here, thanks!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

Why no, you haven't. I'm just practicing being nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:41 AM

You don't sound nice, but I am glad you are practicing.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: 282RA
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

>>The Rapture is when Jesus returns and takes all the fundies (HIS fundies) away to heaven, and shuts the door and won't let us in.<<

I think that works more in my favor than theirs. I'll stay right here, thanks. Fundies, don't let the doot hit you and all that rot. Have fun in heaven, never mind us back here. Forget you ever heard of us. Just rub your hands in glee at all the suffering we must be going through because we didn't listen to you.

The Rapture supposedly came from John Darby. Maybe he copped it from the hallucinating Scottish woman. Fundies often link it to Revelation but it is not there. It is in Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Paul seems to be describing something like an acid trip. He may have been describing his "vision" or series of such visions. Some think he might be describing an epileptic seizure which often has religious connotations for the afflicted. Again, yeah, maybe.

It's so strangely worded and so strange to begin with, no one could know what Paul was saying and it doesn't appear he was describing as he himself wished. Heavy acid trips do that. Trying to tell people what you experienced doesn't really capture it. Paul struck me as being quite perplexed about that. So how can anyone claim to be a follower of this passage? It doesn't lend itself to any kind of perception that but the most abstract.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:22 PM

Interesting point, 2. Paul said a lot of weird stuff that I don't think Jesus would have agreed with.

It never is revealed what the "thorn" in Paul's flesh is. There has been a lot of speculation about this among theologians, and several theories advanced, one of which is that Paul was epileptic. Among other things, this could account for his encounter on the road to Damascus.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: gnu
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:55 PM

Thanks for the insight, 2. Never really thought of it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:59 PM

Paul was a truly odd duck, no doubt about it. I don't care much for his viewpoint on a number of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:43 PM

Paul was the cranky one, with lots of hard-nosed ideas. Apparently he didn't smile much. A huge amount of what a lot of people consider to be "Christian" came, not from Jesus, but from Paul. A pastor I know once commented that "A lot of people who consider themselves Christian are actually 'Paulists.'"

Paul said a lot of stuff about things that Jesus never talked about and that Jesus probably never would have said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:04 PM

Possibly the thorn in his side was the body itself.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

I think that Paul was one of the first 'born agains' - in my experience always the hardest liners no matter whether it's religion, non smokers, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:40 PM

I've met people like Paul, and I don't like them very much. Someone like Jesus, on the other hand, I would be delighted to deal with any time.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:55 PM

O.K I know I have come in for a lot of flack because of my Christian views but Christianity is still alive after 2000+ years, why is that? Why do 'Born again' Christians claim they have a relationship with the living Christ? A lot of people on this thread have tried to ridicule Christian beliefs but how many have actually made a study of the philosophy and theology behind it all? How many have actually tried to attain that relationship for themselves? Very few.
It drastically changed my life but then...you have to choose for yourself..you have the freewill to choose. All I can suggest is that you choose wisely...and the only way to do that is to learn by your own and others experience ....Christianity is part of that for me...not for you..fine that's your choice.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:09 PM

I've studied it very thoroughly, Mike. And you will note that I don't ridicule. I do, however, take to task those Christians who speak and act in a manner that Jesus would never have condoned.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:47 PM

Yes Don and I have a great respect for you and your views on many things...as you already know.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:49 PM

Paul influenced Peter and, eventually, all of Christianity. James, on the other hand, was (as far as it's possible to tell now), the actual leader following the death of Jesus of Nazareth. Paul never met Jesus of Nazareth, and he wrote that. What he taught seems to have been what he, Paul, felt Jesus taught -- and Paul got that second hand, from people like Mark who HAD met Jesus.

But the Gospel of Mark was apparently based upon the "Q" Gospel, which has been lost. Matthew based his upon Mark and Q, Luke upon Matthew, Mark, Q, and interviews, and the Gospel of John has been said by many biblical scholars to be concocted from the mind of the writer. The Gospel of Thomas, on the other hand, is getting more and more scholarly approval -- and is the Gospel of Mary of Magdala.

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:16 AM

The "Rapture" is basically an idea concocted by the Scottish Calvinist, John Darby who misinterpreted Revelations in the Bible to support his thesis.

It's being used as a political tool by the Radical Right to foster their authoritarian ambitions for the world.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:30 AM

Wherever it came from it's a reeeedickldockle concept, IMNSHO

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: 282RA
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM

Saying Jesus would not have agreed with Paul is problematic being that Paul had no interest in a historical Jesus. He was interested in the Christ of his vision. Paul does not appear to know anything about a historical Jesus or he does not care.

There was historical school and it appears Paul might have been at war with them (Gal. 1:6-9 and 3:1-3).

It appears the Church simply incorporated two entirely different strands--the historical Jesus and the mythical Christ--and put their writings into one book while revisioners over the decades and centuries revised and smoothed the gaps as they saw fit (often leaving bigger gaps than the ones they tried to fix).

Paul's rapture scenario is also problematic in that he never wrote it again in any other of his epistles.

As for the thorn in his flesh, there is good evidence that it may have been homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

Jes' thinking...If the Rapture occurred, and the True Believers were all whisked off to heaven, leaving the rest behind...........might that not represent a considerable improvement in the quality of life for those Left Behind?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:17 PM

Hey dick, shhh, don't give it away man, they might change their minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:35 PM

Well, as a follower of Christ, I find Paul to have his own agenda that just doesn't seem to jive with what we find in the stories of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John... Paul is like a cop... He is judgemental... He has way too many rules... I mean, fir gosh sakes, he was a tax collector, right???

Yeah, I ain't gonna get all exicted over some Rapture thing that I don't believe in 'cause of some misconstued passage from Revelations...

I believe in a loving God who ain't into throwin' in the towel...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:46 PM

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine.....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pedant
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:44 AM

" that just doesn't seem to jive with what we find"

The word is JIBE! Really and truly it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:52 AM

Ooo, quite right. Jibe means both to match up, and to cross the wind stern-first, when sailing. It also means a hurtful remark.

Jive means slanging, hep-talk, or BS, inter alia.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:02 PM

'Gibe', innit? (for the hurtful remark)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:32 PM

My dachshund has let slip one choice bit of information. There are no barbecued sausages in heaven. Now I know why he came back.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: foggers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:45 PM

Wow what an interesting thread! - I am a newbie and this is my first posting so be kind....

I am a former "fundie" and as such can speak from the experience of being scared witless as a teenaged lass by all the preaching about a secret Rapture and the need to conduct my life in spotless purity in case I was caught "in sin" at that vital moment when Jesus came back. Faith based on fear seems to be a feature of most types of fundamentalism - fear of judgement, fear of rejection, fear of retribution.

When I left that particular faith at the age of 23, (and was also going throug divorce traumas) one of my abiding memories is that the person who was most loving and supportive was my GAY landord, as opposed to folks from my old church who tracked me down and told me I was going to Hell, especially when they realised the kind of "sinful" life I had chosen*.

The impending war with Iran seems to be driven by Bush's need for the fundies votes, and here in GB we have toothy Tony who is more a high church type Christian, so his public pronouncements on Iran seem to be waivering between lukewarm support for GWB to more caution. But when the excrement hits the rotating air-conditioning he will be Bush'e lapdog again I am sure.

And that is far more scary than any heretical secret "Rapture".

foggers

PS * for a full run-down of my complete range of sins send SAE to...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:48 PM

Foggers,

Well said. Welcome to the 'Cat; enjoy the zoo, don't feed the trolls and never be afraid to say how things really seem to you; add a pinch of humour for easy digestion and all will be well!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:55 PM

Well said, foggers. Yes, out political leaders and their plans for war are far more dangerous than a sudden visit by Jesus. Matter of fact, I would be delighted to meet Jesus anytime, and would not fear his judgement in the least. It's the judgement of nasty-minded people that I fear.

Two of the brightest and most gifted young women I have ever known in my life grew up as Jehovah's Witnesses...and I always wondered how the heck they could go on believing all that stuff.

Well, one of them rejected it by the time she hit her mid or late 20's, so she saw through the conditioning of her youth. The other is still very young...perhaps 24 at the most. She's a remarkable girl. If she doesn't also see through it at some point, I will be very surprised.

It boggles my mind that a body of teachings as humane and forgiving as those put forth by Jesus could be twisted into such fear-mongering insanity as is embraced by fundamentalist churches...but it all depends on how people interpret things or who they listen to, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: foggers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 12:57 PM

Cheers Amos - was guided to Mudcat by my mate mandotim and have been reading and lurking around for a few months now, so I thought it was time to stick me head above the parapet and actually say something!

Thanks for the advice & the welcome; I do fall for making meself into troll food now and then.....but will be alert (because Britain needs lerts......sorry, old joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

*looked up the word in my digital thesaurus WordWeb ...it allows either spelling..jibe or gibe...

one meaning is:
"Be compatible, similar or consistent; coincide in their characteristics"

and the one Ebbie mentioned is there also, but I have rarely heard that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: JennyO
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

One of the nastiest and most judgmental and treacherous human beings I ever met - my uncle, was always a fire and brimstone kinda fundamentalist "Christian" - my family was full of them. Many years after I had last seen him, there appeared an article in the newspaper about a sect which believed they were all going to heaven on the 29th August of whatever year it was - complete with a picture of one of their spokesmen - Uncle Doug!

Actually, their headquarters were right near where I lived, and you often saw their vehicles driving around with banners all over them, proclaiming their version of the Rapture. Apparently they believed their whole bodies and all their possessions were going too, because they had their suitcases packed and ready. Unfortunately it didn't happen - a shame, because the world would have been better off without people like him.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:19 PM

sad, Jenny...both for your family, and that ANY group can so distort rationality and make themselves and others miserable with ignorance and superstition.

Is uncle still at it? That bunch in California a few years ago who "went behind the comet" at least 'went'...and the world IS better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:23 PM

Now I keep reading this as "Is the Rapture Underwear???"

Hmmm...I have a marketing idea....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 03:32 PM

Make it skid-proof, won't you? Your slogan can be "Ya never know!" or "Remember what Mom said!" LOL


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

Hi, Foggers, and welcome to the party. (Don't apologize for the old jokes, though; say rather that you're quoting the classics.*g*)
As to the question at hand, I've always thought that if you're doing the best you can, then the all-knowing God will understand just why you did what you did (or didn't), and will manifest as an all-forgiving diety as well.
If it turns out that I was wrong about this, well, Mark Twain was reputed to say,"Heaven for climate, Hell for society."

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

As Mr. Spock used to say when he observed yet another example of human folly,

"Fascinating!"

The article is by Michelle Goldberg, the author of the cautionary book, Kingdom Coming : The Rise of Christian Nationalism.

(Why do I feel nervous?)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:02 PM

Look, this is ridiculous.

ALL humans are secular in their basic operations.

And ALL humans are different and "unusual" in their non-secular orientations.

THAT's why the Constitution was wisely framed to provide for means of management on the secular side only, and means of tolerance on the NON-secular side.

It was obvious to them from hard experience that people go LOOPY on the subject.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:17 AM

Yeah. Somebody said, "Give to Caesar the stuff that's Caesar's and God the stuff that's God's." I couldn't have said it better my own self.