BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 01:10 PM

"and that "Islam was not propagated with the sword." "

Just axes, bows, arrows, and clubs, I guess...




Jihad -circa 640-740 CE

"Soon after Muhammad's death in 633 AD Arab raiders pushed out of the Arabian peninsula and within 100 years they had cut and burned their way across North Africa to the Atlantic, north through the Iberian peninsula across the Pyrenees into southern France where they were repulsed by Charles Martel, King of the Franks, at Tours in 732 AD. Islam's armies also pushed into the Byzantine Empire, across the Middle East, and then in the 8th and 9th centuries they overran Persia, Afghanistan and northwest India. The march of Islam was stopped by the Mongols and Turks who destroyed the Islamic empire. The Turks adopted Islam and continued its spread across Anatolia and Armenia, over the defeated imperial city of Constantinople into the Balkans, twice reaching the gates of Vienna in the 17th century, from which they were miraculously repulsed.

Islam divides mankind into believers and non-believers. The former are "the best of nations" (6) and the latter are "the vilest of animals" (7) The parts of the world where Islam prevails is called "House of Islam" (dar al-Islam) and those areas which non-believers control is known as "the House of War" (dar al-harb) because war is what it takes to subdue it. Non-believers are divided into two groups, namely pagans and Peoples of the Book (Christians and Jews because they relied on books, i.e. the Torah and the Gospels). In early Islam the pagans were offered the choice of converting or being put to the sword. Most converted. Christians and Jews, however, were treated differently. Upon surrender without a struggle and in exchange for protection of their lives and property, they entered into a contract (dhimma) with their overlords, minimum conditions of which were 1) submission to Islamic rule; 2) admission of their own inferiority; and 3) payment of the capitation or head tax (jizya) (8) In addition the local rulers imposed whatever other limitations or indignities they wished, such as distinctive clothing, boots and head gear, restricted living areas, limited use of riding animals etc and other indignities designed to compel conversion to Islam and transfer of wealth to Muslims."

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 01:10 PM

It is time for a showdown with Islam's more radical leaders and followers. Islam continues to spew hatred. They are not followers of their prophet. They are followers of sick men with sick agendas. They deserve no apology. They deserve contempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 01:06 PM

By SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 3 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - Thousands of Muslim worshippers staged marches against Pope Benedict XVI in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza on Friday, waving green Hamas banners and denouncing him as a "coward" and an "agent of the Americans."

The demonstrations in the Middle East, as well as smaller rallies in Pakistan and Malaysia, came as Benedict invited representatives of Muslim countries to meet Monday at his summer residence, the       Vatican said.

The Vatican has been seeking to defuse anger across the Muslim world that followed the pope's remarks about Islam last week in Germany.

Benedict cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

The pope said Sunday that he was "deeply sorry" about the reactions to his remarks and that they did not reflect his own opinions. Earlier this week, he said his comments were open to misinterpretation and that he had "deep respect" for Islam.

He has not issued a direct apology, as demanded by Muslim leaders. Earlier in the week, protesters attacked seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza, causing little damage and no injuries.

At Islam's third-holiest shrine, the Al Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem, hundreds of worshippers hoisted black flags and banners that read, "Conquering Rome is the answer." Protesters chanted, "The army of Islam will return." The march dispersed peacefully.

In the West Bank city of Nablus, Hamas supporters took to the streets after prayers, shouting slogans against the pope and waving Hamas flags. Raising their hands to the sky, the more than 2,000 protesters chanted: "We put up with hunger, detention and occupation, but we won't put up with the offending the prophet. We sacrifice our lives for you prophet."

Marching in the streets of Nablus, the protesters called the pope a "coward and agent of the Americans."

In northern Gaza, more than 1,000 Islamic Jihad supporters shouted in praise of the prophet, and waved black flags. Khader Habib, an Islamic Jihad leader, told the crowd that the pope's comments "indicate that this pope doesn't understand Islam or the prophet."

In Ramallah, hundreds of Hamas supporters marched around the city center.

Hundreds of radical Islamists chanting "Down with the pope" rallied in several Pakistani cities.

More than 500 supporters of a coalition of six Islamic parties, called Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal, or MMA, demanded the pope's removal and accused him of supporting the policies of President Bush.

"If I get hold of the pope, I will hang him," Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, a senior MMA leader, told protesters in Islamabad, who carried placards reading "Terrorist, extremist Pope be hanged!" and "Down with Muslims' enemies!"

In Karachi, another MMA leader, Ghafoor Ahmed, accused the pope of wanting to force "Christians and Muslims against each other."

"We condemn the pope. We will not tolerate insulting remarks against Islam or our Prophet Muhammad," Ahmed said at a protest that drew about 300 people.

Another 200 rallied in the eastern city of Lahore, while several dozen protested in Multan.

The demonstrations came a day after 1,000 clerics and religious leaders met in Lahore and called for the pope's removal and warned the West of consequences if it didn't change its stance regarding Islam.

Thursday's meeting was organized by radical Islamic Jamaat al-Dawat group, which runs schools, colleges and medical clinics. In April, Washington put the group on a list of terrorist organizations for its alleged links with militants fighting in the Indian part of       Kashmir.

After the meeting, a statement was issued demanding the West "change its stance regarding Islam (or) it will face severe consequences." It did not elaborate.

It also said that jihad was not terrorism and that "Islam was not propagated with the sword."

Malaysia's opposition Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party staged demonstrations outside mosques nationwide, calling for the pope to fully retract his remarks. In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia's largest city, some 150 party members chanted "Stop the insults" and held a banner that read "We Muslims are peace-loving people."

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 11:55 AM

Tolerance: A Two-Way Street

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, September 22, 2006; Page A17

Religious fanatics, regardless of what name they give their jealous god, invariably have one thing in common: no sense of humor. Particularly about themselves. It's hard to imagine Torquemada taking a joke well.

Today's Islamists seem to have not even a sense of irony. They fail to see the richness of the following sequence. The pope makes a reference to a 14th-century Byzantine emperor's remark about Islam imposing itself by the sword, and to protest this linking of Islam and violence:

· In the West Bank and Gaza, Muslims attack seven churches.

· In London, the ever-dependable radical Anjem Choudary tells demonstrators at Westminster Cathedral that the pope is now condemned to death.

· In Mogadishu, Somali religious leader Abubukar Hassan Malin calls on Muslims to "hunt down" the pope. The pope not being quite at hand, they do the next best thing: shoot dead, execution-style, an Italian nun who worked in a children's hospital.

"How dare you say Islam is a violent religion? I'll kill you for it" is not exactly the best way to go about refuting the charge. But of course, refuting is not the point here. The point is intimidation.

First Salman Rushdie. Then the false Newsweek report about Koran-flushing at Guantanamo Bay. Then the Danish cartoons. And now a line from a scholarly disquisition on rationalism and faith given in German at a German university by the pope.

And the intimidation succeeds: politicians bowing and scraping to the mob over the cartoons; Saturday's craven New York Times editorial telling the pope to apologize; the plague of self-censorship about anything remotely controversial about Islam -- this in a culture in which a half-naked pop star blithely stages a mock crucifixion as the highlight of her latest concert tour.

In today's world, religious sensitivity is a one-way street. The rules of the road are enforced by Islamic mobs and abjectly followed by Western media, politicians and religious leaders.

The fact is that all three monotheistic religions have in their long histories wielded the sword. The Book of Joshua is knee-deep in blood. The real Hanukkah story, so absurdly twinned (by calendric accident) with the Christian festival of peace, is about a savage insurgency and civil war.

Christianity more than matched that lurid history with the Crusades, an ecumenical blood bath that began with the slaughter of Jews in the Rhineland, a kind of preseason warm-up to the featured massacres to come against the Muslims, with the sacking of the capital of Byzantium (the Fourth Crusade) thrown in for good measure.

And Islam, of course, spread with great speed from Arabia across the Mediterranean and into Europe. It was not all benign persuasion. After all, what were Islamic armies doing at Poitiers in 732 and the gates of Vienna in 1683? Tourism?

However, the inconvenient truth is that after centuries of religious wars, Christendom long ago gave it up. It is a simple and undeniable fact that the violent purveyors of monotheistic religion today are self-proclaimed warriors for Islam who shout "God is great" as they slit the throats of infidels -- such as those of the flight crews on Sept. 11, 2001 -- and are then celebrated as heroes and martyrs.

Just one month ago, two journalists were kidnapped in Gaza and were released only after their forced conversion to Islam. Where were the protests in the Islamic world at that act -- rather than the charge -- of forced conversion?

Where is the protest over the constant stream of vilification of Christianity and Judaism issuing from the official newspapers, mosques and religious authorities of Arab nations? When Sheik 'Atiyyah Saqr issues a fatwa declaring Jews "apes and pigs"? When Sheik Abd al-Aziz Fawzan al-Fawzan, professor of Islamic law, says on Saudi TV that "someone who denies Allah, worships Christ, son of Mary, and claims that God is one-third of a trinity. . . . Don't you hate the faith of such a polytheist?"

Where are the demonstrations, where are the parliamentary resolutions, where are the demands for retraction when the Mufti Sheik Ali Gum'a incites readers of al-Ahram, the Egyptian government daily, against "the true and hideous face of the blood-suckers . . . who prepare [Passover] matzos from human blood"?

The pope gives offense and the Mujaheddin al-Shura Council in Iraq declares that it "will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose the 'jizya' [head] tax; then the only thing acceptable is conversion or the sword." This to protest the accusation that Islam might be spread by the sword.

As I said. No sense of irony.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM

Ask that the thread be moderated. (Get an atheist to do it.) Rasmussen has had a successful Kitchen Table thread for a few months. No reason there couldn't be one about religion that doesn't drag in those who wish to mess it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Guest - Just try starting a thread about religion. Quietly and alone. The usual suspects will come in and trash it.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:53 PM

I hear that. I truly wish that those people who have a religion would keep it to themselves. Start a thread and laud it. Wax poetic. Glorify their god. Do as they choose. Quietly and alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:50 PM

I din't say you were Guest. I only asked.

Anyway like you, I am thoroughly fed up with the behaviour of religious groups and wish they would keep it to themselves.

My father was a devout Christadelphian. He did try to talk to me about them, but I wasn't interested as I have no desire to want to know. So I just wished him well with his religion and asked him to keep it to himself and his religious brothers and sisters. That he did and that was fine. irrespective of what I thought about his religion, if he wanted a lift to a service, I would take him, but wait outside or pick him up later.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:21 PM

"There is going to have to be an accounting with the Islamic fundamentalists sooner or later. I think it would be wise to have it sooner. Either that, or let the moderates back into power.

I am tired of hearing about Mohammed. He was another shyster out doing stuff in the name of a god, much the way other religions have their representatives who interpret what the diety 'really meant to say'. If god is so powerful, s/he'll let you know direct.

People who talk about religious rights should also know that they have the right to keep it to themselves. And I wish they would."

"That makes no difference here because Guests are welcome. Names mean nothing."

They are the posts I made.


To which you say

"They help Guest especially as some guests are just shit stirrers. Are you?"

How does stating an opinion make me a shit stirrer? The above remarks are certainly less 'shit-stirring' than a few threads YOU have started lately. Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:18 PM

Nope.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:15 PM

They help Guest especially as some guests are just shit stirrers. Are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 02:53 PM

That makes no difference here because Guests are welcome. Names mean nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 01:26 PM

You'd be a little bit more convincing if you had the guts to use your name.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:14 AM

There is going to have to be an accounting with the Islamic fundamentalists sooner or later. I think it would be wise to have it sooner. Either that, or let the moderates back into power.

I am tired of hearing about Mohammed. He was another shyster out doing stuff in the name of a god, much the way other religions have their representatives who interpret what the diety 'really meant to say'. If god is so powerful, s/he'll let you know direct.

People who talk about religious rights should also know that they have the right to keep it to themselves. And I wish they would.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:22 AM

from the above clickie-

"One thing should be kept in mind, however: The often violent protests that erupted in the Muslim world in the wake of the cartoon controversy have often been manipulated and fuelled by Islamists. The bile currently being flung at the pope is no different.

But the attacks against the pope are especially grotesque. The severe criticism -- often coupled with threats of violence -- directed at the speech held last Tuesday by Benedict XVI is not just an attack on the head of the Catholic Church. The malicious twisting of the pope's words and the absurd allegations made by representatives of Islam represent a frontal attack on open religious and philosophical dialogue.

That so many in the Muslim world joined the protests against the pope merely show just how influential Islamist extremist groups have become. The political goal of the Islamists is clear: any dispute between Christianity and Islam must obey the rules handed down by political Islamism."

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM

Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, the Pope -- Who's Next?

It is time not to treat Muslims like children who may get tantrums now and then and to tiptoe around them but to treat them like adults. I do not want to be bullied by religious fundamentalists of any faith.

Sorry about the misunderstanding is the only sensible reaction here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 07:50 PM

A cargo ship, the Gregorio 1, headed for Syria, was stopped in Cyprus, on September 5th, because of an Interpol alert that the ship might be involved in weapons smuggling. On the ship were found 18 North Korean mobile (truck mounted) air-defense radar systems, along with three mobile radar command centers. The crated radars was labeled as weather forecasting equipment. The ship was under suspicion because it has changed its name, and country of registration, at least five times in the last five years. The ship was also found visiting North Korean ports. The paperwork on the "weather forecasting equipment" said nothing about Syria, but as soon as the situation became publicly known, Syria demanded that the ship be released, and allowed to deliver its cargo to a Syrian port (of which there are several, just north of Lebanon). Soon, Syria had a team of diplomats on their way to Cyprus, to obtain the release of the radars. Syria is under no arms embargos at the moment, but is being pressured to stop supplying Hizbollah with military equipment.

Syria continues to hold the radars because they were falsely identified. Since the radars are military equipment, Cypriot law is being violated (you cannot bring weapons into Cyprus, or its coastal waters, without permission.) Most likely, the Syrians will have to pay a bribe (probably in the form of a fine) to liberate their radars. North Korea has increasingly been exporting its weapons by air freight, usually via Russia, where the government has not been checking North Korean air shipments for weapons. The bulky radar sets, however, were apparently thought innocuous for shipment by sea, which is a lot cheaper than air freight. Trying to pass the stuff off as weather radars, however, did not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:50 PM

So... it's all shit. Thought so.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:41 PM

Taoism: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
Zen Buddhism: Shit is, and is not.
Zen Buddhism #2: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit has happened before.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Islam #2: If shit happens, kill the person responsible.
Islam #3: If shit happens, blame Israel.
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it.
Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else.
Presbyterian: This shit was bound to happen.
Episcopalian: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it.
Methodist: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it.
Congregationalist: Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another.
Unitarian: Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another.
Lutheran: If shit happens, don't talk about it.
Fundamentalism: If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!)
Fundamentalism #2: If shit happens to a televangelist, it's okay.
Fundamentalism #3: Shit must be born again.
Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: 282RA
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 05:03 PM

There is certainly no way we are going to change Islam into a kinder, gentler religion when we're invading them, imprisoning them, torturing them, and turning their countries into terrorist breeding/training grounds.

We have no right to point fingers at them when we're acting no better.

The West needs to clean its own house and forget about trying to clean everyone else's.

The best way to avoid confrontations with crazy Islamic idiots is to, for once, stay the hell home and mind our own goddamn business.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 04:04 PM

*humming*

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
'Neath the halo of a street lamp
I turn my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the sound of silence

"Fools," said I, "you do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you"
But my words like silent raindrops fell
And echoed in the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sound of silence

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 04:01 PM

...waiting for the moderate voices of the majority...

"CAIRO (AP) — An al-Qaeda-linked extremist group warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were "doomed," as protesters raged across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.
The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al-Qaeda in Iraq, issued a statement on a Web forum vowing to continue its holy war against the West. The authenticity of the statement could not be independently verified.

The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as "the worshipper of the cross" saying "you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."

Islam forbids drinking alcohol and requires non-Muslims to pay a head tax to safeguard their lives if conquered by Muslims. They are exempt if they convert to Islam."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-09-18-pope-qaeda_x.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 03:44 PM

There are three groups of Islamic radicals in southern Thailand that comprise nearly all the active terrorists. These are: BRN-K (National Revolutionary Front - Co-ordinate, or Barisan Revolusi Nasional - Koordinasi), GMIP (Islamic Mujahideen Movement of Patani, or Gerakan Mujahideen Islam Patani) and PULO the Patani United Liberation Organization).

BRN-K is the largest, and best organized of the three, so the other two tend follow the big guy. BRN-K also has an extensive administrative organization, via the large number of Mosques and religious schools it controls. BRN-K has also spent years recruiting, indoctrinating, and training members. That's why mosques and schools are so important. The basic lesson taught is that Moslem and Malay (what most southern Thais are) is good, Thai and Buddhist (what most Thais are) is bad. BRN-K has also get its finances in order, having gotten thousands to supporters to make monthly donations (often only a dollar or two) to the cause. Drug and smuggling gangs have also been big contributors. This adds up because the BRN-K leaders not too corrupt, and the money does not disappear into their pockets. These resources have, over the past five years, enabled the BRN-K to form about 500 5-8 man cells (called RKK). BRN-K has provided from a few days, to several months, of training to at least one of the members of each cell. Each RKK unit is pretty independent, which makes it difficult for the police to get much useful information out of captured RKK members. Most of the RKK units are not very active, as there are only a hundred or so attacks a month. And in some cases, one RKK unit carries out several attacks a month. It's believed that only about 30 percent of the RKK cells are active. But the other 70 percent are still there, and still dangerous.

GMIP and PULO each appear to be less than a third the size of BRN-K, and are less active. So far, the three Islamic terrorist groups have managed to co-exist, and cooperate on some attacks. Many BRN-K members are also involved with criminal gangs. So despite the religious connections, many of the holy warriors make their livings with smuggling. Of course, that is seen as a respectable occupation in the south, unless drugs are involved. But a buck is a buck, and most smugglers will at least consider moving drugs across the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 03:10 PM

...[the] practice of many members of Islam for allowing their concept of God/Allah to be outside the strictures of reason...

Of course, no "Christian"[sic] has ever been guilty of this.

Nor has Christianity ever been spread "by the sword", nor have any "Christians"[sic] ever been exhorted to do so...

The current Pope Torquemada is a dangerous man.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:52 PM

Breaking NEws:

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood demands, yet another, clearer apology from the Pope.

_______________________________

I suppose a clearer apology would consist of the Pope converting to Islam, self immolation or submitting to beheading.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:51 PM

*sigh*


"That even in the face of such radical scepticism it is still necessary and reasonable to raise the question of God through the use of reason, and to do so in the context of the tradition of the Christian faith: this, within the university as a whole, was accepted without question.

I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor.

The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an.

It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.

In the seventh conversation [text unclear] edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion".

According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war.

Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably ... is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident.

But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.

At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?

I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, the first verse of the whole Bible, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: "In the beginning was the Word"."

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:47 PM

I read the words and I find them offensive, unless somehow put in some sort of we are all guilty of this context. There is no right to go around stirring up trouble right now. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:33 PM

One can say many things by "attribution"

You can even tell a story about some one in a bar who says at the end of the story, "people like you should shut the fuck up".

voila, and you've just told some one to shut the f up without telling them directly.

Usually one would never expect a challenge to a put down that is down by attribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:28 PM

mg,

Did YOU read the speech, or just hear the media comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 02:17 PM

I am horrified by the pope's comments and I was horrified when they elected him pope. There were only two cardinals that people were dead set against having as pope, one being Ratzinger and one being one entrapped in the child abuse situations. He is not so dumb as to not know how offensive this is, and how volatile things are with the Muslim world right now. It was deliberately provacative...was not, as far as I know, sandwiched in between acknolwedgements of some of the unbearable things the Catholic Church was/is responsible for, and has not been responded to with an apology..although sort of an explanation was issued. This is very very serious. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:48 PM

The problem's not with Mr. & Mrs. Average-Muslim-In-The-Street, it's with these nutcase so-called 'clerics' and self-elected 'community leaders'. For both titles, read 'Rabble-Rousers'.

Until these 'clerics' and 'community leaders' take ownership of the problem and stop spouting their inflamatory bile, there will always be a hothead element (usually very young and highly impressionable) who will take their words literally and act accordingly.

Perhaps a jar of large gob-stoppers and free courses in listening skills might help?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:33 PM

Shit fit?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:32 PM

The moslems I grew up with were not as interested in converting people, whether by sword or by word, as the Christians I live among now, in the Southern US...

Also, I don't get offended when I hear the word God, I just let the speaker know that I don't believe in any.

I *do* get offended when the possibility of atheism existing is denied.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:29 PM

You have said atheism has problems. You have insulted us. I demand we declare a--wait, we need a word for it. BRB.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM

Atheism has two major problems:
A lack of deities to help protect you from the various belivers out there.

And a lack of really good swear words. Cursing random varions in space time when the hammer misses the nail, but not your finger just isn't right.....

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:11 PM

Could atheists please get together and get insulted every damned time someone mentions God?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 01:03 PM

What the Pope says by that quote is not a direct insult to Mohammed & Islam, but the context is so complexly layered that it WILL appear so to Muslims who do not take the time to sort thru the references and dissect the entire speech.

But what the Pope does right after this, in my opinion, is obliquely criticize the structure of Islam and current practice of many members of Islam for allowing their concept of God/Allah to be outside the strictures of reason; thus providing a basis for taking certain scripture literally and allowing Muslim clerics to interpret the 'rules' subjectively...including rules of Jihad.

   As the Pope's speech progresses, this connection seemingly becomes only a subtext of other erudite points, but he 'could' have made his point without using Mohammed as an example, so I suspect it was not accidental.....and yeah, he should have realized someone would yank THAT line out of the text and have it all over the world in 15 minutes!

   There is obviously some food for thought about the ways in which Islam is structured so that it is possible for various adherents to find justification for their violent behavior....just as some Christians can find justification in the Bible for sending missionaries out to 'convert the heathen'....by any means necessary.

   I suspect that the Pope didn't ask the spirit of his predecessor, John Paul II, for advice when he wrote that speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:36 PM

What do you mean by 'If' one of their spiritual leaders etc. etc. Ebbie? This is the kind of comment, in spirit if not in the exact words, that the news tells us Moslem leaders make all the time. Just look at any sample of speeches by Moslem leaders as reported by our 'free press' if you don't believe me.

Why should we be so surprised when someone answers back? Dissapointed, yes. Surprised, no.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM

When I have been wronged, insulted or the victim of larceny I am usually quite vocal and ask for the situation to be corrected or at minimum recognized.

Of course the perceived wrong doer prefers to do nothing but often offers the worst of all apologies...

"I'M sORRY YOU fEEL tHAT wAY!"

That is worse than no apology. Its actually just another insult for you being so foolish as to ask for an apology and ignores the issue that is in question.

Well leave it to the Pope to offer the "I'm sorry YOU feel that way" apology, which has led to 5 church burnings and a 17 year old pediatric care Catholic nun by Islamic extremeists.

How can one best apologize? First review the dispute with the offended party and come to a bilateral and complete understanding of the issue immediately and ask exactly what words or action would best resolve the dispute. Follow up and do the right thing.

Now as for the ass holes who did the exact things the Pope was talking about when he referred to writing over 1,000 years old about the violence of spreading Islamic beliefs among unbelieving infidels...

I'm sorry they feel that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 12:34 PM

Leave it to the bearded one to note the irony of this issue first...

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 11:44 AM

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"

Choosing that statement to quote, rather than other writers, depicts unmistakable animosity to Islam. It was an insult to do so.

I would guess that the reason the Muslim world reacts so violently to the Pople repeating it is that over the centuries that statement
has rankled.

Come on. If one of their spiritual leaaders gave a public lecture in which he said that Christianity holds "only things evil and inhuman", christian leaders from Falwell and Robertson to the Pope himself would decry such a view of the religion they hold dear. They wouldn't take to the streets and burn down mosques - it's not our style- but one of them might well call for the assassination of the said leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Mr Fox
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 11:10 AM

"Islam divides mankind into believers and non-believers."

And this is different from christianity how, exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:42 AM

Sorry again Bruce - I am obviously not making myself clear. When I say 'remove these western perceptions' I mean educate the people of the west to realise that Moslems are not, by and large, a violent or intolerent people.

My experience, much like that of SJ's, is that the ordinary Moslem on the street is much like me and you. It is, as so succinctly put, the media who constantly publisise the handful of dickheads that seem to be causing most of the problems. Rest assured that the press in the Moslem countries are doing an equaly bad job:-(

Powers far higher up the food chain than us control the press and do so to control the minds of the masses. It is an old and very transparent ploy to get the people to fight against a common enemy rather than look at what is wrong in its own front garden. Do you not think that this is happening on both sides of the divide here? I do. Which perhaps answers your question as to why I do not read much of what comes out of these publications and believe even less.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:41 AM

It's the beans that are the problem!
However, when a placard is held by demonstrating Muslims outside a UK Catholic Church that says "Jesus is the slave of Allah" isn't that just as bad as what they are protesting about?
Religions, who needs 'em? They've brought nothing but misunderstanding, death and destruction to the world since day one.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:30 AM

Of course the jihadists aren't following the Koran-- this is the same phenomenon so may USers have already fallen for, here-- getting to know people by whole batches via the media, instead of getting to know real, live, human beans in the flesh. Letting the extremists who capture the media capture our own perceptions, as well. I run into it every day, here and IRL, as a Christian with very little in common with either the media darlings (or the misguided abusers so many folks have experienced in childhood).

This violence is not changed by mass effort group-to-group, but by individuals one-on-one, en masse. The only hope in the Israeli/Palestinian picture has come that way, but it takes time, and doesn't work well in soundbytes. Instead of damning the groups and/or the media, it's much simpler and more powerful to build those 1-1 relationships, and support the organizations fostering that.

There is still no substiturte for actually getting to know abother human bean. Ask BillD if you don't believe me.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:21 AM

BTW, if the answer to the last question IS yes, then let me know why the West is wrong in attempting to force ITS standards ( free speech, equal rights for women, freedom of religion) upon the Moslim world.

Or does the Moslim world have rights that the Western world does not?

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:18 AM

" If we remove these western perceptions, by education, do you think we would, hopefuly, get on better?"

IF the violence is also removed. But as shown by this, and the cartoon incident, normal speech ( the freedom of which is part of Western culture) is met by violence and destruction. As long as this occurs, how CAN we remove the Western perception?





"Are you saying that most of the west is decedent and imperialistic? If so are the Moslems right in trying to rid themselves of us? "

By THEIR standards , YES- But should WE acquiese to that? Is the West required to meet the standards of the Moslim world, or not?

THAT is the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:15 AM

My neighbours are Muslims (two families of them actually), and fine, friendly, cheerful, generous people they are. My personal experience of Muslims (pretty much limited to these two families) is that they want to live in peace and friendship with whoever life brings them into contact with.

BUT - is there any wonder that many people believe them to be violent, evil, nasty bits of work when, every time someone says something they don't agree with, some of them seem to go out of their way to behave like violent, evil, nasty bits of work (while at the same time bawling their heads off that they aren't!).

AND - why do the media insist on publicising these comparatively-few dickheads, rather than the peaceful majority? Don't give those pricks the oxygen of publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:12 AM

Sorry Bruce, misunderstanding then. When you say that the perception is true I take it to mean that what these people think is in fact the truth. Easy mistake to make. I guess you mean that it is true that we have those perceptions then?

In which case I go back to my original statement that it is education that is required, not more rhetoric. If we remove these western perceptions, by education, do you think we would, hopefuly, get on better?

I have lost track of your argument a little I'm afraid. Are you saying that most of the west is decedent and imperialistic? If so are the Moslems right in trying to rid themselves of us?

Like I said before I think not myself but if you can provide evidence to the contrary I will happily consider it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Moslims non-violence- Kill, burn,destroy
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 06 - 10:09 AM

Seems like the present jihadists do not even follow the rules in the Qur'an:


"People who want to remain neutral in war should be left alone and not be troubled in any way. As in Qur'an:
Or those who approach you such that they neither have the courage to fight you nor their own people [and are such that] had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah does not give you permission to take any action against them. 4:90
People who neither take part in a battle nor are able to take part in it – as per the dictates of custom as well as sense and reason – should not be killed. As according to a hadith:
'Abdullah Ibn 'Umar (rta) reports from the Prophet (sws) that once in a battle when it became known that a woman had been killed, the Prophet (sws) emphatically forbade the killing of the women and children.[18]

Ibn Athir further adds:[23]

Wrong no one and exercise no torture.
Do not touch the children, women and the old.
Do not destroy fruit-trees and fertile lands.
Do not kill sheep and cattle.
Respect all religious persons who live in hermitages or convents and spare their edifices.


Objectives of warfare
According to verses 2:190-194, the Qur'an implies two objectives:[10]

Uproot fitnah (in Arabic: ÝÊäÉ) or persecution (forcing people to renounce their religion)
Establish supremecy of Islam in the Arabian peninsula "