BS: Britain tops the yobs league

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:14 AM

Memyself, I agree with your viewpoint, I have friends in the teaching profession and many have gladly accepted early retirement, all you relate concerning parents would be backed up by my teacher friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

I have seen it in action - Yob parents protecting yob kids. I am not a teacher and would hate to be in their position when they have to explain that it is wrong for dear little Wayne/Waynetta to kick their classmates in the head because they were wearing better trainers.

It is going to take many years to sort out the culture that has brought this about. Not sure if I fully agree with the super-nannies but it could be a step in the right direction provided that these parents accept that they DO bear some responsibility.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 12:07 PM

Free alcohol to all between the ages of 14 and 20. This will remove most of the dimwits and yobs within two years with liver disease. Only the brighter ones would avoid it and so we manage to cull the "not rights" and promote the smarter ones.

Sorted!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 01:18 PM

..and ard mhacha is gaelic for shit stirrer

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:19 PM

I second Spot's suggestion with one addition. As well as free alcohol we should include free skydiving lessons. Only to be taken at 2am on a night after the free beer.

Now, lads, please take your choice of parachute. Or rucksack...

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:21 PM

Shields Folk I am sorry you feel this way,but I had nothing to do with this report,the report was by the IPP research group and if you care to look through the replies to the Thread you will find that the overwhelming majority agrees with the research groups findings.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 05:45 PM

I doubt if a situation where most parents are working all God's hours really helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: autolycus
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:18 PM

I'm doubtful how many parents will take THEIR responsibility, either because they think that is the same as taking ALL the responsibility

or

because they equate taking any responsibility with being blamed, the last thing most people want to know about.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 06:58 PM

The only generalisation about "most parents" that convinces me is the one that says most parents are, on the whole, good parents, and most kids are good kids, on the whole.

There are too many exceptions to that, but they are exceptions.

One problem is when parents and teachers imagine that they are the main influence on their kids, past a certain pretty young age. They aren't, other kids are. The important thing is to be around to help pick up the pieces and stick them together again. Not "quality time" when it suits us, availability time, when we are needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 07:30 PM

I have to say that the IPP report didn't tell us anything we didn't already know. Again I repeat I can only speak of what I see at first hand on the streets of my home town. I understand while I am rambling through Europe that a television programme focused on a town or area in England and looked at the problems they faced. I doubt anywhere in England, Scotland, Wales or Ireland is any different. I haven't seen any of it in Europe and I have seen many late nights recently ! Can any of our American or Canadian friends let us know what it's like on their patch on weekend nights ?

I was no angel in my youth, and had great parents that brought six children into the world (five of them never gave them a moments trouble)we just didn't do those things in those days, I wish I had the answers and solutions to the problems we face today.

I treated those that did, (sent to us for psychological fine tuning) never once did I get an answer that made any sense to me as to their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:37 PM

My impression in Canada is that you don't see an awful lot of that yob type of thing going on, compared to what seems to be the case in Britain, judging from what I've seen on the box and from the frustration being expressed on this thread. I've been in and out of the city of Edmonton (northern Alberta) for the past twenty years, and for the last five years or so there have been problems occasionally on one three or four block strip of a street called Whyte Avenue, and acts of youth violence increasing in number and severity all over the city. There are several factors that I and many other people see as contributing to the increasing violence in Edmonton: traditional redneck/cowboy culture, disproportionate numbers of people aged 18-25 or so (come looking for work), groups of immigrant kids competing for turf, a lucrative drug trade, gangsta-rap culture, and a broader Albertan culture that seems lacking in any sorts of values other than "work hard, make as much money as you can & spend as much money as you can". Having said that, though, the trouble-makers are really the exception to the rule; most of the kids out getting soused on a Saturday night in Edmonton are just out for a good time, and in fact most of them tend to be quite personable after a half-dozen beers, if a little loud. And I think the same holds true for most Canadian communities.

My impression is that the whole business of the class system has created and feeds a great deal of animosity and alienation in Britain, and this gets expressed in yobbery ...

And here's a little anecdote that may interest you, being from Northern(?) Ireland (Divis, that is). In the late-seventies, I had a friend who had immigrated from Belfast. We were out for a Sunday drive one time, and stopped in a small town in rural Ontario. I noticed at one point that he seemed quite taken with a public flower garden/display in the center of town, which I had hardly noticed. He turned to me and said, "In Ireland you'd never see something like this in the small towns. The local kids would have it torn up the first weekend." Make of that what you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:20 AM

When I was in Berlin I noticed that the large shops along Kurfurstendamm, that citys elite shopping centre, that the main items were displayed in a glass case mounted on a stand some 30 feet distant from the main shop.
My friends and I remarked that in our town the display arrangement would not have lasted overnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:08 AM

GUEST,memyself and ard mhacha what you both said here is exactly right. I have a sister living in Canada and she remarked on the flower beds too ! One of the largest flower beds in my home town is directly facing the police station and attacks on it by yobs got so bad that the local council stopped planting it out.(No surprise, when you consider the local police only come out to go to the bakery). You are right ard, here in Spain the local cafes leave their tables and chairs out overnight ! I can just imagine that at home !

In Torrevieja Spain, the police are very visual, as are the local civic guard. These guys with two foot batons on their belts walk their beat from morning to night. There was an incident last week in a large out of town supermarket. I have no idea what happened. All I saw was one of the stores security guards grab a bloke who ran out of the store, he pulled him back in and handcuffed him and kept him face down, his baton on the ready as he used his radio. I can hear the outcry now, if that happened at home !

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:31 AM

Funny thing is with parks, flowerbeds etc. is that Mrs G and I often make the same comments. Not that they are any better in Europe but that they are distincly better in small town Britain. Visit Whitby or Barnard Castle or anywhere in the Yorkshire Dales. Go to the lakes, visit the small towns of Cheshire, Herefordshire or Somerset. They are a far cry from inner city Manchester, Newcastle or any other major city. Big difference in Europe is that even the cities are better.

Don't know if it is significant but it does make me realise that the UK is not completely lost to the yobs. Far from it. And like someone said earlier it is definitely the case that vast majority of parents and kids are honest, hard-working, law-abiding citizens. Lets just hope that the majority win out in the end.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:25 PM

Mrs. Johnny and I were in Canada last year and were amazed at how polite and well-behaved Canadian teenagers were. No f**king and blinding, no rubbish strewn around, no misbehaviour - just politeness and consideration. My bro-in-law is a cop in Canada (ex-Cambridgeshire Constabulary) and he agrees that the general standard of behaviour amongst young Canadians is light years ahead of the UK.

Having said all that, the general standard of behaviour amongst adult Canadians was light years ahead of Brits too - shop-workers who smiled, greeted us and wished us a nice day instead of just grunting and holding out their hands for the money, strangers on city streets who were only too pleased to give assistance and directions to us lost tourists instead of punching our lights out and pinching our mobile phones. I could go on.....

Maybe the difference between their young people and ours is in the different standards their adults set and conform to?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:01 PM

"Maybe the difference between their young people and ours is in the different standards their adults set and conform to?"

You might want to ask yourself - never having been to the UK, I don't have an opinion on this; just a suggestion - what are the interactions of these kids with the adult world like when the kids are not in yob mode, when they're going about their rightful business in the course of a day? In general, are they being granted a modicum of respect by the adults they encounter or are they more likely to face contempt or antipathy? Personally, I've come to be a great believer in the elevating power of respect ... especially for those who've never gotten much of it.

Flattered to hear the favorable observations of Canada. In case anyone's wondering, we do have our fair share of violent criminals and assorted hard cases, but it sounds like casual social interactions are a little more civil here than in some places. For instance, re: "pleased to give assistance and directions to us lost tourists", my brother told me that when in Edinburgh a few years back, he got a hard time from a group of young toughs when he asked them something about how to use a payphone - in Canada, you figure that a thug may cut your throat in the line of business, but that doesn't mean under normal circumstances he won't be happy to give you directions or to help push your car out of a snowbank ...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:04 PM

So at the end of it all, Britain will top the yob league for a long time to come, wouldn`t it be great, even miraculous, if the nannies start showing results in the near future, here`s hoping.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:41 PM

One thing that might help a little would be if pubs were severely penalised for selling to people who have had too much to drink. When they do that they are breaking the law, but most times nothing happens to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 11:27 PM

I was a Canadian yob in a different lifetime. Once, a girl from Italy came to visit, so I brought her to the beer hall, so she could see how the locals live. These were places with beer, long lines of tables, benches or chairs, beer, and nothing else. (They don't seem to have them in the city anymore, maybe in the country.) When a fight broke out at the table next to us, I said "See, we have to provide our own entertainment." She said: "That's because you are English. That is how they behave." This was thirty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:42 AM

oh well we can't all be perfect....

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:56 AM

GUEST, heric - Whereabouts in Canada were you living? I've never before heard the term "beer hall" used in a Canadian context, although I'm more familiar than I should be with the type of establishment to which you refer. They don't seem to exist in that form any more, which is too bad really; they were far more sociable than the modern set-up.

Anyway, you're talking about barroom brawling, which has a long and honourable tradition in Canada, along with, in some places, street-fighting. I think this yob thing in Britain involves much more than respectable if impromptu bouts of fisticuffs.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:36 AM

I don't think beer hall is the correct term either, mem, but I can't for the life of me remember what we called it. I'm thinking primarily of the Avalon in North Vancouver, but there used to be a lot of them. I remember it seemed a big deal when they tried to upgrade it with real wooden chairs instead of benches. But you're right, intimidation of the elders or innocents was not in the picture (then). I have heard of two "swarming" incidents, as described by Den, by the current crop.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:05 AM

That girl's comment was my first eye-opening incident in eventually understanding that Italy has a superior culture to our Anglicized nations. Another was walking around in Verona with a local. She would stop and have one to three minute conversational exchanges with total strangers of any age or gender, then proceed on her way. They would talk with each other as if they were neighbors from the same street. I don't know about "the Continent," but Italy is just plain better. Have to accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:53 PM

I've just ordered a guitar from Italy - I have to wait til wednesday before they'll post it. We're better at some things.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:46 PM

Sorry to be the bearer of more bad news, on tonights BBC news Britain was castigated again, consuming more Cocaine than any country in Europe, it is of great concern as teenagers are using the drug on a regular scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:06 PM

ard mhacha, your just loving this aren't you, well despite it's many faults I think Britain is a bloody decent place to live. Now we all know that everyone in the world would love to be Irish but some of us will just have to survive in this the mother of all democracies.
Now I know I have had a drink (Newcastle have just beat Celta Vigo in the UEFA Cup) and I will regret this in the morning, but why dont you just FUCK OFF!

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:21 PM

Oh my, my, my ... Really, Mr Folk, I think if you review the thread, you'll find there have been a number of posts from our Irish friends themselves in which they decry the yob situation in Ireland. You sound as if you perhaps had a drink and are saying something you will regret in the morning ...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:32 PM

Just reviewed the thread and there has been posts from ONE other poster from Ireland decrying the yob situation.

HE didn't start the thread with Britain prominent in the title whilst in his opening post acknowledging that the problem was just as prevalent in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 06:34 PM

Oh,and by the way "you yourself" what are you hiding by posting as a Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 07:14 PM

There are a number of posts in which Irishmen allude to less than ideal situations in their neck of the woods - if you scroll up a short ways, you'll find the last message from Divis Sweeney talks about the local kids tearing up the public flowerbeds in his community.

As for what I'm hiding - um, why do I have to be hiding something? Okay, I'm hiding my name. Because I don't want to have to defend my name in squabbles with drunks. Now, what are you hiding behind the handle "Shields Folk"?

I don't really want an answer; I'm not interested in fighting with you. I've got nothing against the English; I've got nothing against the Irish, and I find it sad that there is so much ill-feeling between the two of youse. I'll go away and have a drink too, then maybe I'll be in fighting mood when I come back. Don't wait up, though. Or, better yet, if I'm not back in five minutes, start the fight without me.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Den
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 09:39 PM

Easy there Shields Folk, do you consider yourself British or English?Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 03:10 AM

The same person who gave England the hard drugs industry (Thatcher - prior to that, everybody was too busy paying mortgages) was at the helm through period of the hunger strikes.

Her party is gaining ground again.

Never lose sight of the enemy.

The working people of England and Ireland have a common enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:45 AM

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/c/cheeky.html

this is because of people that beleive in political correctness, or do-gooders.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 09:46 AM

http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/c/cheeky

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:08 AM

So ShieldsFolk `i`m loving it, no you are way out here, only someone with a twisted mind would say that.
Get your head of of the sand and look around your town and being honest come back and tell me I am wrong, your country is going downhill rapidly.
Try and do something about it, if it comes to that give the"nannies" a hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:21 AM

I think it comes down to kettles and pans, Ard. I agree with you entirely but what may be rubbing some people up the wrong way is the 'YOUR country bit. I know you have already agreed that it is the same over there, in some ways I believe it to be worse (See Divis's thread on race crime). But it may give the impression that you have raised the point to show how much better Ireland is. I don't think you have and I know that things in the North of your isle are indeed no better than on this one.

Shields Folk - It is bad over here. There is no doubt. It is bad in Northern Ireland as well. It is undoubtably better in other countries. I think if everyone takes a step back we will see we are in agreement and instead of arguing we all need to do something about it!



Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 10:31 AM

That is the nub of it Dave the gnome. There are a few anti-English members who never cease to try and have a sly dig at us whilst pretending the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 11:52 AM

Ted keep your nose out of it, sound advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:00 PM

Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 12:39 PM

No Ted leave them for your boy friends, the white stuff on the table, geddit.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:02 PM

Ted, can't help but feel that I am in those words of yours there somewhere. Please read my posts and you will see me comments are about yobs in IRELAND, not England, I expressed what I seen in my hometown, which happens to be in Ireland. And I don't make half assed remarks to have a sly dig at anyone, as most know, it's all or nothing from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:19 PM

ard mhacha - I had assumed that you had started this thread in good faith, but your last message (to Shields Folk) ("your country is going downhill rapidly") leads me to wonder if my ol' buddy Shields Folk isn't right after all, that maybe you did start this just to needle the English. I hope I'm wrong, 'cause if I have to apologize to Mr Folk, well, it won't be good for my self-esteem, let's put it that way ...

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:30 PM

I don't think Ted's remarks were addressed to you DS.

Ard gets very touchy about any remarks made about his country - that he feels to be unfounded.

We don't feel we are the decadent nation that his posts suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 01:33 PM

Dear o dear memyself taken in by a sorry for himself, for heavens sake read my posts, this is a serious matter not to be confused with some union flag waver.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:11 PM

I think seeing it terms of nations is missing the nub of it. To a considerable extent it's a matter of the broken down parts of the big cities.

Not exclusively, because there are related things that happen in the small towns as well, largely because there's a kind of copy-cat process going on. And it can be very nasty. But it's a matter of a certain type of young people out in the sticks copying what they know happens in the cities, rather than the other way round.

But mostly out of the cities it's still quiet enough. You can go through your whole life without seeing any serious trouble.

Ireland, outside Dublin and Belfast is country of small towns. England has a pretty fair spread of cities. That makes a difference when it comes to national generalisations.

I think it is possible to make not wholly misleading generalisations about national differences between the various countries on the mainland of Europe and on the offshore islands. So perhaps it's true to say that the English do tend to be - well, according to taste you can call it more reserved, or less friendly, or a bit stand-offish, or less intrusive than some of their neighbours. "They're good neighbours - you'd never know they were there" is a common way to talk here, and it wouldn't be in a lot of places.

But I doubt if that has much relationship to the kind of street yobbery we've been talking about here.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 02:59 PM

If any care to read Ard mhachas posts on this thread I think you will find he remarks on yobs in Ireland too. What part do people not accept or wish to accept. Fucking sick of Irish mudcatters getting rapped on this site as anti English if they care to speak or remark. Ard we should let them keep their ball and fine a site where members are less touchy.
Fucked off big time at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:26 PM

We had good discussion going for awhile there, but it's gotten too foolish for me. Have a good time, boys, I'm outta here.

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:27 PM

Don't get too peed off Divis - If you look back I think you will find that a very small percentage of the contributions are rapping anyone for being anti-English. In the main people agree with Ard and anyone wanting clarification about the situation in Ireland is, I guess, just wanting re-assurance that we are not on our own!

It isn't pleasant to think that some young people in my country are so badly behaved. I accept that they are and I think no-one else would argue against the facts and observations here. I think people just want re-assurance that it does happen elsewhere. We know it does. We are down to now is degrees of severity.

If the only thing that the Irish and English can fight about now is 'Our yobs are better/worse than your yobs', then we have ceratinly moved very far forward in the last 40 years:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 04:51 PM

Dave, I posted several times to this thread and if the others care to read them they will find that ALL MY POSTS hit hard on the local scum around my hometown in Ireland, I never once remarked on English towns only to say I heard there was a television programme on about it that I didn't see. I noted that ard remarked several times on local yobs in his area of Ireland.

In plain words, if I appear on any thread in which the word British or English is in the title, it turns into open season with remarks spoken out of the side of their mouths about me or any Irish member.

Honestly Dave the example above should be enough to see this. As far as I can see only two Irish mudcatters came on this thread and both hit hard at what we see in Ireland, and still it's seen as an attack on Britain/England.

I worked for several years treating drug addiction, there is a thread about it which I would have loved to post on, but can't. Why ? because the word Britain is used in the title.

Yes I have fought my corner concerning Irish issues on this site, but the above contains me explaining that not only the U.K. suffer, Ireland does too. Seems I am to be excluded from social issues as well now.

Hope all well with you and the bride.
Take care

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: Britain tops the yobs league
From: Shields Folk
Date: 24 Nov 06 - 05:07 PM

Divis, I agree your posts have reflected your views on your own local problem. I even agree with the majority of what ard has said, but I think he is using the title of the thread to colour other Mudcaters view on Blighty.

Well if a Joe Clone was to change the thread title to "Britain and Ireland tops the yobs league" I'd be happy.