why well run folk clubs are important

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 05:10 AM

good idea.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:33 AM

Cap'n,
I certainly was not aiming my comments at you, nor was I telling singers what to do - I was expressing my opinion of what I believed a good folk club should be offering - I (apparently mistakenly) thought that airing opinions is what discussion forums were about.
I suggest we drop the animosity and proceed in a more friendly fashion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:55 PM

shimrod,I sing- play where I CHOOSE ,The Singers club was not in that category[ not for all the tea in china].
In fact I cant think of a less pleasureable way of passing an evening.,Rather like playing in the headmasters study,.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

jim carroll;you wrote[laughter or amusement is desirable if the singer is singing a humorous song,but the job of a singer is to communicate the song not present a caberet act].
does it not occur to you, that you are telling singers what to do.
now I am sure your comments were not aimed at me specifically, But as a singer I can,t help but be included.
The three occasions people have tried to tell me what i should do.
1. a feminist from the socialist workers party,objecting to me singing,The Bald Headed End OftheBroom.
2.quorn club[ no political songs please,]Dick.
3.oxfordshire club[your not here to entertain but sing songs][[Istill managed 7 songs in the first set]]
4 a club in the midlands [I was harangued for singing The Coasts of Peru]because it was a Whaling song.
Jim, I would not dare to tell you how to collect songs.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

Every well run organisation has to have policies and rules. If I was involved in the running of a folk club I would, along with my fellow organisers, work towards a set of democratically decided club policies and rules - just as the Singers' Club did. And if you didn't like those rules or policies we wouldn't bleedin' well book you!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:20 PM

JIM CARROLL it has occurred at least three times.
see what is traditional music thread,now can we discuss the above thread only please.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

ewan maccoll was a very good songwriter[ he is not my bete noire].
I dont think he was a very good folk club organiser.
well run folk clubs,in my experience are accomodating and welcoming and encouraging to floorsingers, people should not feel intimidated,by the organisersand afraid of singing certain kinds of folk songs.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

Mike Harding was a better folksinger/songwriter than anything else he's had a go at. And I bet you that's how he would like to be remebered.

If we had a few more like him treading the boards (wall to wall if necessary), the folk clubs would be in better shape.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 01:50 PM

Cap'n - can't think of a gentle way to say this but your continually harping on about a long defunct policy of a long defunct folk club is getting very tiresome! Even your bete-noir, Ewan MacColl, has been dead for 17 years now - there's no chance of him telling you what you can or cannot sing. And even when he was alive this policy only applied to the Singer's Club and I don't remember any requirement to attend that club if you didn't agree with the policy.
Please, for God's sake, get over it!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

Who is telling you what to do or sing and where is this intrusion on your liberty taking place Cap'n?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 05:42 AM

I disagree,
far be it for you or me, MACCOLL[or anyone else   to tell other singers what they should do,.
as someone who has had considerable experience of performing, I would say this,the art of performing lies in communicating with the audience [there are many different ways of achieving this]laughter [providing the singer is not taking the piss out of his material]is one of the most successful ways of winning an audience over.
examples Dave Burland,Martin Wyndham Read, Hughie Jones. Now if presenting a cabaret act[ Ewan Macoll did this too[[he and peggys show was a very well planned caberet act, to the extent that he discouraged any support acts,in case it didnt fit in with their show]]enables the performer to communicate the songs,examples maccoll, mike harding[he sings good quality serious songs too]TheSPINNERS ,Hughie Jones the Ian Campbell group.Isee nothing wrong with that.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 04:33 AM

Cap'n,
Where did that one come from. I had no intention of lecturing you - or anybody - about professionalism. I was responding to Chorley Bob's somewhat contradictory posting which appeared to be saying that us dyed-in-the-wood, finger-in-the ear, purist traddys on the one hand took our music too seriously, yet on the other hand disapproved of those who took it seriously enough to try and make a living out of it - one wants to make up one's mind, one really does! I have no problem with people making a living out of the music providing the music doesn't suffer in the process.
On another matter; perhaps it might be better to avoid names when discussing the folk scene (unless they are being directly quoted, of course).
I find my fingers twitching over the keyboard in response to Derek Brimstone, John Foreman, Martin Carthy, Christie Moore et-al when they are presented as shining examples of the folk music scene - some of us may - just - not agree.
Concerning laughter, Billy Connolly used to make me laugh uproariously, and I've been known to curl up in my chair at Basil Fawlty or Father Ted, but I probably might not enjoy any of these, should they turn up to a folk club and sing The Wife of Usher's Well or Tam Linn (on the other hand, they might make a half decent fist of it - who knows). Laughter (or amusement) is desirable if the singer is singing a humourous song, but the job of a singer is to communicate the songs, not present a cabaret act; as somebody pointed out in this or an earlier thread - god save us all from wall-to-wall Mike Hardings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 07:23 PM

A sort of united y-front!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 07:00 PM

well I don't think you should ever let anybody in a folk club unless they are wearing pink underwear. Its a simple enough requirement, and if someone won't go along with that - they are no respecters of the tradition. Ewan MacColl, The Copper family, Sleepy John Estes, Christy Moore, and Peter, Paul and Mary -- they all wore pink underwear.

I remember the time Bob Dylan asked for floorspot at the Dog and Ferret in 1954, wearing navy kegs.

I said, f--k off Bob, we're serious about folksinging here mate...

you've got to draw the line somewhere.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 05:44 PM

ginger sutcliffe =Roger sutcliffe,now based in whitby area.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 05:24 PM

I have no problem with the Cork singers club,that insist that guests and performers are unaccompanied ,in fact I find it an interesting challenge,and also a useful analysis of[for me]how my singing changes when I sing unaccompanied ,rather than with concertina.
   well run folk clubs should not be cliquey or dogmatic,they should be welcoming to newcomers ,.
are you telling me this is how the singers club was.
Richard Bridge ...... Dave Kelly, Janis Joplin, Jeff Dale[ organiser of the Downe folk club]Marilyn Middleton pollock , ginger sutcliffe[leeds area] five good white blues singers.
academics dont really understand about performing, its like acting.,you release your emotions[like the blues] you sing what you want to sing, not what [the singers club] or anyone else tells you to sing. well run folk clubs dont do this .

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM

jim carroll,a serious approach to performance is also the attitude of entertainers like Derek Brimstone AND John foreman,and they make people laugh.
making people laugh is one of the most fundamental aspects of performing,it allows the audience and performer to break down barriers between each other .
please dont lecture me about Professionalism, for whatever faults I may have Iam not unprofessional.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM

Cap'n
Was going to reply, but was saved the trouble - thanks Richard.
Bob,
'Purist' and 'hard line traddy' are terms like 'finger-in-ear' which have become knee-jerk reactions whenever the suggestion that it is necessary to do some work in order to sing traditional songs raises its ugly head; all basically are meangless.
The 'purist' clubs I experienced were the ones where you were body searched for musical instruments, or presented with a form to fill in saying you wouldn't sing anything less than a hundred years old - long gone I hope. I do not recall anybody advocating either of these conditions for the running of a good club; certainly not on this thread.
As far as I'm concerned, apart from the satisfaction and pleasure I get from listening to traditional songs, I believe the traditional form of compostion is ideal for the creation of new songs; hardly purist.
On the question of what constitutes 'traditional' and 'folk'; that's a matter of finding a consensus on terms in order that we can all continue to speak to and understand one another.
Can't see what's wrong with taking enjoyment seriously - I'd have thought a seriouse approach to performance was part of the job description of being 'professional'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Chorley Bob
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 11:15 AM

Its a fine balance and I've found the best clubs are a mixture of some savvy commericial acumen (after all , what's the point of putting on a turn if no one's in the audience) AND a knowledge and respect for the tradition. The purist clubs were always a bit "eat it up its good for you" for my taste, even 30 odd years ago, before the disillusionment with the left. These days the hardline traddy purists seem anachronistic. I appreciate what they do, if only some of them wouldn't take it so seriously and rear up at the merest hint of professionalism.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM

"a reaction against the proliferation of pseudo-American accents which were beginning to dominate the revival".   

I'm all for that!

I gave up the blues (mostly, and those that remain are not really done in the pretence that I am a share-cropper any more) when I did realise that I could not possibly have a proper apprecation of the life experience of the originators. The number of people who can sing convincingly in an idiom that is not theirs is almost as limited as the number of Americans who can pass for English.

I know one and one only surviving white middle-class blues singer who truly sounds the part. Jo-Ann Kelly (of whom I was quite a fan, and was quite a close friend of my late wife, before my involvement) was one. That is not the rule but rather much the exception.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 07:18 AM

e JIM. Ewan said she should not sing bessie smith songs. E G. BLUES., something quite different.
I have to disagrree with you ,Ihave heard plenty of good white blues singers .JO ann Kelly, Springs to mind immediately.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 04:24 AM

Helen,
Yes, I do still enjoy the music - we are lucky enough to have it wall-to-wall in our (small) town; excellent sessions with skilful and devoted musicians four nights a week. Unfortunately not too much singing.
I feel, as you obviously do, that song has become an essential part of our lives and the people we have met down the years have left their fingerprints all over everything we do.
We spent a great deal of time over twenty years with Norfolk traditional singer Walter Pardon who, at one point in his life decided that his singing no longer came up to the standards he had set himself - so he stopped singing in public; but right up to his death he never stopped loving, talking about and passing on the songs and the experiences he grew up with - and we are all so much the richer because of that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,(previously of 5.42 am
Date: 08 Dec 06 - 03:53 AM

Jim - thank you for your explanation of why you 'stoppped enjoying' singing. I do sympathise with you. And I agree that if a performer is not enjoying themselves, then neither will the audience. But I hope that you are still enjoying the music whether by collecting, studying or sharing your experience. I can't imagine exactly what my life would be like if I had no involvement with music and no chance to sing ... but I know it would not be as fulfilling or enjoyable.

Helen.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 04:15 PM

Cap'n,
I knew MacColl for twenty years; I was a member of The Critics Group for three, I was a member of the audience committee of The Singers Club for about ten years, I lived at Ewan and Peggy's for three months, I have been working on the 200 odd tapes (approx 9 years worth) of recordings of The Critics Group meetings since we moved to Ireland eight years ago.
I rely entirely on my own first hand experience of Ewan and The Singers Club, not on 'Chinese Whispers'. You are free to believe who you like.
Personally, I believe that the only person who should try to sing like Bessie Smith was Bessie Smith! I have never been convinced by a white singer trying to sing like a black one, though they are free to sing like an Azabajani bard should they wish to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 03:28 PM

so who,is one to believe you or[folkie Dave Eyre.]you I suppose
however, I do know that maccoll told at least one person of my acquaintance that they shouldnt sing like Bessie Smith[ the woman in question was a vey good blues singer] and ,In my opinion
she made a better job of it, than MACOLL did of his Scottish accent.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 03:05 PM

Guest,
I began collecting in the early seventies while we were involved in running a club in West London and a singers workshop.
While I was still residenting at the club I found my time being taken up more and more with research and having less time to practice my songs. I found my singing gradually going down the pan because I wasn't putting in the time to get my songs ready for performance. I am not a 'natural' singer; I need to work to make my songs come out right. When I was singing regularly I had a repertoire of around 350 songs, which grandually rusted to a standstill. My range began to decrease and my voice became less flexible - I stopped enjoying it, and I believe that if the singer doesn't enjoy it, neither does the audience.
My standards aren't paricularly 'exacting'; I expected other people's singing not to fall below a not particularly high standard so I couldn't expect to get away with not doing the work myself.
I still enjoy singing the occasional song in sessions over here, but I tend to fall back on the handful I feel I can do passably well.
Cap'n; I do wish that people would get The Singers Club policy right.
Nobody 'had' to sing songs forom their own birthplace - MacColl was born in Salford and sang mainly Scots songs. All the rest of the residents sang a varied repertoire of songs, mainly from Ireland, Scotland and England. Bert Lloyd, who was a Singers Club resident for many years quite often sang songs from the Canadian repertoire (often taken from the Fowke collection). What none of the residents did was to sing in accents that weren't their own, or at the very least, familiar to them (eg Maccoll's Scots accent, which he grew up with and surrounded by at home).
The tendency (that's what it was) to sing songs from your own national background, was suggested in the early days of The Singers Club and came into being as a reaction against the proliferation of pseudo-American accents which were beginning to dominate the revival. The end result I believe was a blossoming of the national repertoires of Britain and Ireland.
The belief that The Singers Club was a draconianly run setup is a false one; the policies that were in place there were adopted by the residents, for the residents.
Liz;
I'll drink to that! It used to pee me off to see singers turn up for a booking and sit down in the bar till it was their turn to sing, then go back down there when they had sung (or chat loudly to their mates while the other singers were performing). - Prats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 01:50 PM

can be a tad off putting when someone joins in , by whistling.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 12:08 PM

Brian.....agreed, been there more than enough. I too don't do them anymore via selection.

Sorry for thread creep.....

Spot the Dog

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 11:43 AM

Can I add No. 14?

Respect for the audience from the booked performer - I'm really fed up with the attitude of some artistes who seem to think they are doing you a favour by turning up. I've seen a very famous singer insult her audience before it was even seated by being such a Diva that the concert start was delayed by 30 mins on a cold, rainy night. It was no surprise to me that half of them forgot to come back from the bar across the road (it was a 'dry' venue) after the break.... The same singer has been seen glowering vehemently at people in the audience who might have a cough or a sneeze that escaped whilst she was performing....

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 11:23 AM

Amen to that Cap'n - and songs are for singing, not being stored away in museums, or the special preserve of a privileged few.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 10:14 AM

In my opinion,Implementing a policy, as the singers club did, of singers having to sing songs, from their birthplace is a mistake,and something I hope never occurs in a folk club again,.It is something thatknocks the fun out of singing, folk clubs and folk music should be fun.DickMiles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

Interesting point raised above about audiences joining in with the whole song instead of just the choruses. If I'm singing a well-known folk song then I don't mind, as the singer. Generally, I'm happy for people to join me though, as it means they're happy too - then everybody's happy, which has to be good :-)

I don't normally find it a problem if I'm singing a more 'serious' or reflective song - people generally seem to know when it's appropriate to join in or not.

But if I'm in the audience with a guest artist, I find it annoying if someone else in the audience near me (usually a fan of the artists who knows the words inside out but can't sing for toffee) sings along with the verses and drowns out the person I've paid to see - and listen to.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 07:16 AM

Scrump:
Your description describes in every ghastly detail my own experiences in the days I used to do pub gigs, particularly in Europe. Except that you missed out "throwing coats over the PA speakers" (because there were no coat-hangers, not because the musicians were too loud). I don't play those places any more, although it was character-building at the time, and there were even occasions when the massed ranks of smokers / drinkers / talkers were persuaded to shut up and listen for a while.

Spot:
Yes, sometimes it is the musician who's at fault, but all of us have played shows where no amount of effort, talent or good humour on our part would salvage a 'lousy gig'.

Jim:
Terrific summary (including several topics discussed at the ballad workshop last weekend). If you are confident with all the techniques (vocal and instrumental), then you can actually enjoy and express yourself and do justice to the songs.

Tootler:
It's not always easy to remember it on a concert stage, but I *always* believe in "sharing" songs or tunes with an audience, rather than performing at them - and not just on Singers' Nights.

Peter:
If you lot behave yourselves I will attempt to present an entertaining evening at the Red Bull. Looking forward to it!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:42 AM

I'm interested Jim ... why did you stop enjoying singing? I can understand if you stopped enjoying singing in public because the venues and/or audience did not meet the exacting standards that you have spoken about earlier in the thread, but that would not be the same as just 'not enjoying singing'. I think I might stop enjoying singing if I worried too much about getting it wrong, or sullying the legacy of traditional song, but whilst I try do put as much thought and time into my singing as time allows, I also try never to lose sight of the fact that I started out singing because I enjoyed it so much, and not only should that still be part of myown motivation, but it is also something I would hate to rob other people of by being too (prematurely?) prescriptive or critical.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:37 AM

Lousy gig? One in a smoky pub where the regular drinkers congregate, and only want 'background music', so they talk loudly, laugh, etc., while you are performing. Where they come up to you while you are actually singing and ask a question such as "Do you know The Wild Rover?" and expect you to interrupt the song to answer them. Where they come up and stand in front of the mic when they know the words and start singing as if it's a karaoke, causing the singer to shut up. Where they ask if they can borrow your guitar or fiddle so they can play a song or tune for their mates. Any of this sound familiar? :-)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 06 - 05:20 AM

Cap'n,
PROFICIENT singing is getting the tune right, remembering the words, singing in tune, having some basic idea of what the song is about, having some sort of intellectual and emotional attachment to the song and possessing the ability to communicate (at least partially) your emotions, understandings and appreciation of the songs to the listeners. If you are using an instrument to accompany yourself, it means knowing where to put your fingers and when, and it means allowing the music to accompany the song, not dominate it. This, as far as I'm concerned, is a basic minimum for singing (traditional songs) in public.
GOOD singing is honing and refining the above qualities so you can – say – project your voice and sing in strict rhythm if you are singing shanties (and win over the participation of your listeners in choruses); and/or maintaining their attention and involvement (and your own) for 3, 4, 5, 6, 10 minutes or however long it takes, if you are singing a narrative ballad; and/or learning to use ornamentation and deal sensitively with your lyrical songs and/or making your audience laugh (or at least smile) time after time after time after time if you are singing humourous songs. A GOOD singer has some idea why Tifties Annie's parents beat their daughter to death for falling in love with a servant, or why Andrew Lammie had to go to Edinburgh, or why it was necessary to "wash the blood (or mud) off the dead man's face" while sailing The Banks of Newfoundland, or why Bonny Annie was thrown into the sea in The Banks of Green Willow.
EXCELLENT singing is having a good grasp of as many of the above as possible and being able to make a song work for you and your audience say six or seven times out of ten.
PERFECT singing is being able to do all the above every time (don't know and have never known any perfect singers!)
The more you practice, the better you become – the better you become, the more you enjoy it. I stopped singing when I stopped practicing because I stopped enjoying singing. I disagree with whoever said you practice by singing in the car (I hope I'm not driving in front of him/her in heavy traffic!) Practice is setting time aside from everything else to think about the song and working out what you want to do with it. If you haven't done the basic work on the song, all that singing in the car does is to make permanent the flaws in your singing the song that you haven't tackled (and makes you a menace to other road users).
Basic technique is fairly easy to work on for the average singer (some of us who are not 'natural' singers have to work that much harder to get there). There are exercises to develop all the techniques necessary to sing – relaxation, breath control, tone, pitch, range - whatever. These can be learned in a couple of months and once you have mastered them they are at your disposal for life; then you can then begin to enjoy the songs.
Singers need to have some basic grasp of technique before they can interpret the songs, just as a painter needs to be able to mix colours before he/she can rise above being a dabbler and be inspirational.
In the end, hopefully, you can become as good as you want to be (or at the very least, as good as your natural abilities allow you to be) if you put the work in.
For me, it all boils down to whether you believe the songs are worth the effort.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Peter Hood
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM

Can't resist it anymore!
Come and see Brian Peters is a really well run club this Monday!
11th Dec Red Bull Middle Hillgate Stockport
Start 8.30
Support from Peter Hood and Lynda Edwardes and "Shake the Roots"
We've got a big interest in the music he plays!
Some of us even bought the book!
See ya Monday!
Cheers
peter

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM

>> Brian....how do you define a "lousy gig"? <<

Horrible venue.... Audience with no interest in the kind of music I play (it does happen occasionally, although not usually in a UK folk club)..... etc, etc.

Having seen one of my folk heroes play at a venue he obviously didn't like, and respond with a couldn't-give-a-damn performance, I always do my best to 'work my socks off' even the most unpromising circumstances.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM

of course im so perfect I never have a lousy gig.HAHA

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

Brian....how do you define a "lousy gig"? Bad performer perhaps?. Empty room maybe. I recently went to a badly attended concert where two performers worked their socks off and one just didn't care and wanted out. I wonder how people define what is a lousy gig?

Spot the Dog

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 11:04 AM

how do you define proficient singing,
for example someone can be perfectly in tune,but give a mechanical performance.
another performer may be slightly nervous [perhaps its their first or second time singing] and go slightly out of tune, yet interpret the song better than the aforementioned singer,
in the end its up to the organiser to decide who sings or not, a new singer should be followed by someone the organiser knows is reliable[to bring the evening up ].
the mc should think carefully about contrast,if he knows his singers well,he can do this. so in the end proficient singing[ however we define this]is in the hands of the mc.
another important point,[if the guest is a concertina player accompanist]dont put another concertinist, immediately before the guest [THINK CONTRAST].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 08:51 AM

"4. Respect for the songs"

Hear hear, Jim. I think everyone should have a good reason for every song they choose to sing, based on what it means to them. Could be an emotional reaction, humour, a beautiful tune, a memorable line. But a reason, nonetheless.

Many's the time I've been carried through a lousy gig by the sheer pleasure of singing the songs I enjoy.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: John Routledge
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

I have no difficulty with the concept of a more "relaxed" attitude on singers/musicians nights. Brings in the essential element of Fun :0)

However is it reasonable to ask that all the singers have spent some time in the week before going through the songs they wish to sing with a view to at least being able to fit the words to the tune

If however the singers night consists of half a dozen close friends then they can do exactly as they they like - and no doubt will.

This seems to be the nub of the problem Is the Club singer's night really intended to be available to singers new to the Club If it is then some regard must be had to a newbie's perception of the proceedings.!!

At the end of the day we all have our own favourite venues and long may that continue.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 06:59 AM

I think Jim's list is a reasonable one. What he suggests does seem to represent a reasonable minimum standard for floor singers on a guest night.

However on a singers or singers & musicians night, I think that this can be relaxed somewhat. Folkworks tend to refer to their end of term or end of workshop concerts as "sharing" concerts and to me that is what a singers night is much more about. About sharing songs with others. It is reasonable in that context to try things out. It is not the end of the world if some singers are using words. I know people who feel the need to have the words in front of them who still give a creditable performance.

I do agree about not joining in on non chorus songs - or even verses of chorus songs. It can be most offputting. I recently was completely thrown by this. It was a song I knew well, but was less secure with the accompaniment which I had been working on. Folk joining in on the verse threw me and I messed up the accompaniment. I was not happy about this, as much with myself as with any, but I think if people had just joined in the chorus that would have helped greatly. I have known someone stop, ask people not to join in, then start again. Maybe more should bite the bullet and follow that example.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 05:47 AM

Hear hear Jim

well listed

I particular approve of the one that requires one to sing a song that contrasts to the one preceding it.

Last night I attended a session where nearly all the performers needed words in front of them and there was little in the way of 'performance'

You had to be a die hard to stick that out

It would have done little to promote 'folk' to the general public, who would prbabaly have ridiculed it and i cant say as i'ld blame them, best behind locked doors really, closeted even.

More like caterpill'rs than butterflies, then thats being cruel to caterpill'rs



I was never totally exclusive at Windward but gave greater consideration to what the paying public would like to hear in the hope they would come again.

I have heard the line
' a ring from her finger she silently drew '
and seen fingers slide back out of gobs!!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 06 - 03:14 AM

dovemoofarter
We've done that one. Those standards listed aren't high - they're just suggestions of how to start at putting things right. Then we can make a start at tackling some of the wonderful material that has hardly been touched by singers yet, Greig - Duncan, Grainger, Sam Henry -just wait till the Carpenter Collection is published - you aint seen nothin' yet.
Gervase, I agree entirely with your point about respect for the song - but that has to start with the singer whose job it is to win the audiences' respect. I would add to your list of no-nos audiences who deliberately slow down choruses - it's the singers' perogative to decide the pace of the song; or even worse, rogue members of the audience who join in on non-chorus songs because they happen to know the words (and occasionally even the same version).
I don't organise sessions any more - too busy pontificating on Mudcat
Cap'n - thank you for starting yet another stimulating thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 07:01 PM

Dear countess, if you want to be a little "c" who am I to argue with you?   

You said, however, above "'Inclusory' doesn't exist as a word." I checked the complete Oxford dictionary (the true authority)today. "Inclusory" is indeed in there in the exact sense in which I used it. When you want to pontificate, try to be right.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:42 PM

thankyou John, i,m glad I started it then.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: John Routledge
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:22 PM

Excellent summary Jim Carroll. I particularly liked the order of characteristics required for a good folk club.

This has been/is a very stimulating thread - best for a while.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 03:37 PM

Can't argue with any one of those 13 points, Jim.
13? I'd include 'respect by the audience for the song.' To whit, if someone sings the line 'and the ring from off her finger, she instantly drew,' it shouldn't be the cue for the entire kindergarten to put their fingers in their mouths and go 'pop'. Or, in the John Tams 'Rolling Home', to have the line '..and let the toast go free', always followed by an inane cry of 'Free toast!'.
Maybe I'm being an old fart, but sometimes we should listen to the songs afresh instead of taking them for granted.
And did you mention 'proficient singing', Jim?
And can I come to any session you're thinking of organising? I'm in West Wales, so it's only a short paddle from here...(they do say that, Pict-wise, the Welsh are only the Irish that couldn't swim!)