why well run folk clubs are important

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,dovemoofarter
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

It's no wonder audiences are falling off and new performers are nervous. They're terrified in case they don't live up to your high standards. Soon the proficient singers (didn't someone mention them before) and the musicians will end up playing with themselves (so to speak).

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 03:10 PM

I seem to have driven the subject of proficient singing into the ground so here is my idea of what a good folk club should offer.
1. Proficient singing (have I already mentioned that?)
2. Residents who actually listen to each other so they can tailor their performance to what has gone before and present a balanced programme. In this way the audience is not being given songs at the same pace, with the same vocal effort, in the same key, time after time, after time, after time, after time, after time – ad infinitum. This seems to be a problem particularly on the Irish singing scene where most of the songs seem to be slow, highly decorated and introspective – so much so that, despite the enormous skill of many singers here, you often feel after a session that you have waded through a field of treacle.
3. Some imagination in the programming; theme or feature evenings occasionally can make a difference; (Battle of the Sexes used to go down a bomb in clubs I have been involved in).
4. Respect for the songs and for the audience. Taking the piss out of the songs is not an option – if you don't like them, don't sing them. Too often in the past I have had the feeling that the singers don't particularly like the songs they are singing and they would rather be a thousand miles away. I am sure this has not been the case, but it has become a regular part of some singers' performances.
5. An attentive audience (whether they be performers or not).
6. An effort to involve new or non-singers, so that those who wish to can be brought on as future performers (but please don't let them practice in public); workshops are great, if organised properly. Those who don't want to sing may be prepared to play a part in some other way.
7. An attempt on the part of the organisers to make the premises welcoming (a few posters or album sleeves work wonders) so you are not left with the impression that you are meeting in a pub store-room.
8. Public presentation of the club so that is clear to a casual visitor exactly what they are going to get in an evening. Personally I am not in favour of anything goes clubs - if I want blues I'll go to a place where I can listen to blues; if I want music hall, that's what I will seek out. As far as I'm concerned a club should do exactly what it says on the tin!
9, 10, 11, 12…………. Proficient singing (I think I may have already mentioned this).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 09:07 AM

Jon Mac


Tremendous individual, most knowledgeable, and now part of the clean air movement.


A rock of the folk firmament

Great acoustics at the vestry

see stortfolk, every thursday

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 06 - 04:42 AM

another organiser,who has been involved with running folk clubs at Bishops Stortford for 40 years,Jon Macnamara.
    He also helps to organise a monthly concertina workshop[TheChiltinas]for whom I did a Workshop on traditional ornamentation, and song accompaniment.
so jim, there is quite a lot going on at folk clubs, and their offshoots[workshops]to help people improve and learn.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:29 PM

Brian Peters,
Pleased to hear your ballad weekend was a success.
Looking at your very impressive programme, good luck in the future.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM

I would like to mention another club/organiser ANGIE BLADEN. Angie and Ken Bladen run the four fools folk festival, a folk club, a seesion, and a monthly concertina workshop, in chorley LANCASHIRE,the jubilee players are a mixture of anglo .english and duet players, for who I had, The pleasure of doing a workshop on ornamentation and also song accompaniment,.
Angie is herself a very good singer ,I would recommend all the events and the club that she organises.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,doevoomfarter
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

This little piggy went to market,
This little piggy stayed at home,
This little piggy had roast beef,
This little piggy had none.
Cathie's not a piggy
But she often likes to roam,
And play John Breeze's CD
All the way home.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Cathie
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:18 AM

Is this thread-hijack?

And fartooremoved will be impressed to know that after

Squeak Liz Squeak, I played my John Breeze CD all the way home.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:11 AM

They were probably expecting singers.... They'll know better in future.

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 10:06 AM

Ah..... Remember the comment, don't remember the face, sorry! You should have said something at the time like - are you that annoying woman with the terrible laugh who drives Les insane and posts on the Mudcat!

I only made the connection today when I read your message above (hence the "lightbulb over the head" moment), not last night - otherwise I would have introduced myself. I didn't know you were LTS then though.

I often wondered on the drive home, did the two couples who were either side of me in the first half just find different seats or did they go home??

No idea - maybe they just didn't share the same (admittedly bizarre) sense of humour as the rest of us there? But we were sitting just behind you and we didn't move - if that helps you remember who I was? probably not.

I did meet Cathie though - it was nice to put another face to a name.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:59 AM

Ah..... Remember the comment, don't remember the face, sorry! You should have said something at the time like - are you that annoying woman with the terrible laugh who drives Les insane and posts on the Mudcat!

I often wondered on the drive home, did the two couples who were either side of me in the first half just find different seats or did they go home??

To explain... it was a Les Barker/Keith Donnelly concert, and I was seated in a row of 7 people, of which, only 2 and myself returned after the break. Those who've heard me will know why.. if you've never heard me laugh, I can recommend 'A Cardi and Bloke' by the aforementioned Mr Barker.

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Cathie
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:55 AM

.........Oh and I heard you too Liz, from the other side of the hall.

That was a brilliant evening. How clever of Keith to incorporate audience reaction into his lyrics.

You'll have to follow the tour round now!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM

LTS - it was one of those "lightbulb over the head" moments when I saw your comment. You should know who I am too, now - I was the bloke at the bar who remarked on what you were drinking, and said I'd better avoid that and stick to the beer :-)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:22 AM

Whoo hoo!!

300!!

Haven't had a 300 for ages!

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:20 AM

Scrump.... er... yes.

They were bloody good weren't they.. and as I told Les afterwards, it's a bloody good job I can take the piss out of myself too!

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM

PS The Lewes Arms folk club was very good as well, both in terms of attendance and performance standards from the floor.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM

I remember one night at the folk club that I run in Lancashire, a lady got up to do her spot and announced that she was going to sing a traditional song and proceeded to give us "The Green Fields of France". I don't know where she got her information from but she'd either never heard of Eric Bogle or realised that he wrote the song. I gave her the details later on but how many other people get up and sing what they believe are "traditional" songs that turn out to be written by Ewan MacColl, Keith Marsden, Eric Bogle, John Conolly, etc? You can't blame them for not doing hours of research into what they do especially if they're only singing for a bit of fun and got the words off someone they'd heard singing it or a tape of the song with no recourse to sleeve notes (assuming the sleeve notes are of any help!). Pointing them in the right direction is one of the benefits of being in the folk music movement - if we can help someone to learn more about the songs they sing then that's OK by me.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:10 AM

folkie - perhaps
smock - only when its windy, the 'made in Newlyn ' ones only
beer - not at my club, but will tonight at Herga
tankard - have a collection but wouldnt dream of drinking out of one
frock - nah not for me, very hetero
Windward, - are us
missionary work - toofaremoved has been identified as possible target
rose and Crown - on very rare occasions
Pompous, yes
Berk - short for

tonight Herga for Webber and Fentiman
beer £2 a pint
Pinner Green social Club

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

Jim wrote:
>> Was delighted to read of the ballad workshop in Lewes - hope it prospers and thrives. It was exactly what I was suggesting <<

We had sixteen participants sing ballads from blood-soaked epics to lyrical light relief (not to mention a beautiful song from Bosnia which provided a very interesting example of ornamentation). What was encouraging was that every participant had clearly thought a lot about the story their song was telling, the history behind it, and the style in which they should sing it - whether they'd found it in a book or learned it from a source recording.

Along the way we also found time to listen to recordings of Walter Pardon, Lizzie Higgins, Geordie Hanna, Bill Cassidy (whose incredible 'Pretty Polly' Jim was involved with collecting) and Phil Tanner, whose performance of 'Henry Martin' was a big ear-opener for those who hadn't heard it before. Too old at seventy-something? Pah!!

As to the merits of learning a song from Martin Carthy as opposed to Harry Cox, it's not about trying to find some 'pure form' of the song, but it is about trying to get some sense of the style in which these songs have been performed in tradition through generations before the folk revival came along. It's true that the recorded examples we have form only a snapshot, and we can't tell with certainty what singing style might have been like in 1850, but my guess is it would have sounded much more like Cox than Carthy. Does it matter? Yes, in the sense that it makes the music sound more distinct from the modern pop and rock music that most of my generation grew up with and hence, I would suggest, more interesting. There is a difference in kind between Carthy (a professional entertainer growing up in the age of mass media) and Cox, who walked miles to learn songs from singers in surrounding villages. Martin has always encouraged other singers to seek out his sources rather than copy him.

Tim Eriksen, a younger-generation master of North American traditional style who had a lot to do with the 'Cold Mountain' soundtrack, reportedly became attracted to traditional song because the singing style of the likes of Roscoe Holcombe and Lee Monroe Presnell was actually wilder than the extreme rock bands like Nirvana he was into before.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 07:42 AM

I don't really mind because I had a fantastic time and got more than my 'money's worth (much to the disgust of those around me... you know what I'm like), but someone in that club owes me for his ticket and I'll pay the other £2 later!

You didn't say when this was, but it wasn't last night by any chance was it?

If so, I think I might now know how you got your Mudcat handle :-)

(It wasn't me who blagged my way in at your expense, I hasten to add - I paid at the door)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM

Bummocks, lost a line!

But unfortunately, it'll be a while before I go back to that club, I can't afford the petrol money now!

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 07:22 AM

A well run club would make sure that their visitors get charged the right price....

I went to a club, announced I was a 'newbie' and got charged £8 over the rate on the signs. I suspect they thought I was with the local whom I had followed up the stairs and charged me for both mine and his tickets at the slightly reduced rate for members...... I didn't think about it at the time, as I'd not seen the entry fee posted anywhere beforehand and it wasn't made clear to me at the desk.

I don't really mind because I had a fantastic time and got more than my 'money's worth (much to the disgust of those around me... you know what I'm like), but someone in that club owes me for his ticket and I'll pay the other £2 later!

LTS

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,toofarremoved
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 07:11 AM

Breezy is a folkie,
Breezy wears a smock,
Drinks beer from a tankard
And sometimes wears a frock.
Breezy went to "Windward"
Does missionary work,
You'll catch him at the Rose and Cown,
The pumped up, pompous berk.

Does "bottless" mean that you are sans arse?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:36 AM

'Windward' 1999 - 2006, was probably the best run folk club that most of you lot - especiallly the bottless, gutless, Guest - were unfortunately too far removed from to experience.

It matched all the above mentioned positive criteria.

Sorry you didnt appear Dick, lets try for Herga.

In the meantime,   the former residents will be meeting up with a view to rendering a few songs on Sunday 17th Dec at the Rose and Crown in St Albans, its free admission - and it may have a hint of 'sound enhancement'

I guess its time to return to missionary work! in the communty!!

'Tarra'

'trumpets away.'

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:26 AM

Yes, agreed Cap'n. A well-run club would not IMO tolerate rudeness in the form of people talking while someone is performing. I expect that when doing a pub gig, but when in a folk club I expect people to do me the coutesy of listening to me while I am performing, just as I would do for someone else. Most clubs have time before the start of the performance, an interval and afterwards where people can socialise. I would not want to go to a club where they treat performers with such disrespect.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:00 AM

Talk about learning from CD's Did you ever hear anyone putting the breaks in where they are imagining an instrumental rif? I have. It's quite scary. The stand there with their eyes closed and think everyone is hearing the same as them. I must say it was only the once. I was going to have a word but someone beat me to it.

DtG

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:41 AM

In a well run club, There are normally enough breaks for people to socialise, sothat when the breaks are over, respect is shown to the singers,there is nothing wrong with banter, that is part of participating ,but treating singers like wallpaper music is disrespectful,and happens rarely in folk clubs.
no I dont find it irritating because I dont do it, NEITHER DOES IT HAPPEN IN 99 PER CENT OF FOLK CLUBS.
yes I get a great kick out of learning something new particuarly if I discovered it unaided by anyone else.
The whole point of learning from source singers or anyone else, is to eventually develop your own style, based on those people you have listened to, but not a slavish imitation. if for example I copied the bowing styles of lucy farr or paddy killoran, I would hope that their influence might be evident, but that i have put something of myself in.
what used to piss me off, was to hear floor singers regurgitate three songs from a cd, that they had just bought,and sound like a poor version of the original song writer[interestingly it often exposed the weaknesses of the lyrics in question].

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:24 AM

I agree with your sentiments about getting past the performer at the song and applying your own interpretation, but I am not sure about the statement "get the lyrics and tune in as pure a form as possible". How do you know what is a "pure form"? Does such a thing exist with traditional songs? After all most songs, and their tunes, have changed over time. In some cases songs even acquire new tunes. Given all this, what is a "pure form"?

Tootler - that was the point I was trying to make, i.e. we have no way of knowing whether the song we hear is exactly what was originally sung. I didn't define what I meant by 'pure', but I meant that if possible you should attempt to look behind a singer's interpretation and try to discover the song itself, without any adornments added by the singer's arrangement. It is not possible for us to know whether we have done this or not, because we have nothing to measure it against. But at least we can try, to the best of our ability.

If I feel I have done all I can (and I may not have done, because there may be other information somewhere that I haven't yet discovered) I feel happier attempting a song myself, with my own arrangement, rather than just copying someone else's.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:14 AM

Scrump,
I agree entirely - if I listen to a traditional song I want to hear the singer's interpretation of it, not their source's - be they Harry Cox, Martin Carthy or Kiri Te Kanewa.
While I believe that it is possible to learn from most singers (in some cases how not to sing) everbody should develop their own styles and interpretations otherwise you may as well go out and buy the record of the source singer and listen to it at home.
My remarks to the girl - it wasn't really unkind to point out that Harry Cox also sang Barley Straw; the conversation did develop further and we all went down to the bar and drank to the eternal damnation of Thatcher - so it wasn't too bad an evening after all.
Cap'n learning/socialising - of course you make time for both, but you try to make sure one doesn't interfere with the other. Don't you find it very irritating when some bloody singer keeps interrupting your chat with a song - though I have been in clubs where some audiences don't let trifles like that get in the way of the talk and just plough on with the talk .
There is a theory that learning something new, far from being dull, is actually fun!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 06:36 PM

to Gervase. Please excuse my ignorance, how many skiffLe clubs are there in England ,Scotland and Wales.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

Scrump,
I agree with your sentiments about getting past the performer at the song and applying your own interpretation, but I am not sure about the statement "get the lyrics and tune in as pure a form as possible". How do you know what is a "pure form"? Does such a thing exist with traditional songs? After all most songs, and their tunes, have changed over time. In some cases songs even acquire new tunes. Given all this, what is a "pure form"?

Jim Carrol,
I do think your remark to the girl was a little unkind. You could have been more constructive.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

JIM , Ithink there is room for both learning and socialising. all work and no play, makes jill a dull girl.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 02:00 PM

I agree with Jim Carroll that it's better to find out as much as you can about a song before you sing it, and not just copy the arrangement of somebody else you have heard, in his example the singer who copied Martin Carthy instead of listening to Harry Cox.

What you need to do is to get past the performer at the song itself, i.e. get the lyrics and tune in as pure a form as possible, and then apply your own interpretation to it. For all I know, in the above example, Harry Cox could have sung the song with his own 'mannerisms and peculiarities', and even if the singer in question had copied him rather than Martin Carthy, she would still not have been singing the song 'correctly'.

Assuming (in this particular example) Harry Cox provided the earliest known example of the song being sung in recorded form, how do we know he is 'right'? For all we know he could have changed the tune or the lyrics, perhaps unconsciously - I'm not suggesting he did, but the point is, he could have, without anyone knowing.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM

Don't workshops go against some peoples' idea of socialising and having a good time (and not promoting elitism)?

Not really. I go to Folkworks Caedmon classes every week, have been to their summer school for the past two years as well as to one off workshops. I have learnt a great deal over that time as well as thoroughly enjoying myself doing it. In fact it is thanks to Folkworks that I got back into Folk music seriously after some 35 years "away". I like Folkworks philosophy that anyone at any level should be encouraged to "have a go". They run workshops and classes at every level from absolute beginners days where you can come and try something from scratch through to being partners in the traditional music degree at Newcastle University. I like their approach which is inclusive and is to me the antithesis of elitist.

I see nothing wrong in wishing to improve, in encouraging people to make the most of their abilities or of pursuing excellence. What I don't like is the kind of elitism that has been advocated by some in this thread which says that only those who are "good enough" (however that is defined?) may participate. After all everyone has to start somewhere.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 06 - 11:35 AM

Was delighted to read of the ballad workshop in Lewes - hope it prospers and thrives. It was exactly what I was suggesting (among othere things).
However - on swallow doesn't make a summer (he said looking out of the window at the pissing rain and listening to the howling gale!)
Don't workshops go against some peoples' idea of socialising and having a good time (and not promoting elitism)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

Iwould like to mentuon LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB,.
while it is sometime since I was booked there, this club runs workshops[ballad workshops,instrumental workshops etc ]giving folk enthusiasts the chance to improve their knowledge and skill.
the ballad workshop by Brian Peters was sold out.I find all this encouraging [well done Valmai goodyear]This is another example of a well run club,you should try and get there sometime [ I know its a long yay for you, from IRELAND. BUT YOUR FAITH MIGHT BE RESTORED, JIM.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:25 AM

Sorry folks, the point I was making is that somewhere along the line we seem to have lost a generation or two.
I too was happy to learn songs from whatever source, revival or tradition, but I felt , even way back, that if I was putting a song in my repertoire I wanted to look at as many of the versions of the songs that were available to me; and I always tried to find out (roughly) where the song came from. In this way I tried to make them my interpretations and not my source's. There was an argument put on Mudcat not so long ago that a singer should sound like the singer he got the song from - chameleon style sort of. As it happened, the singer in question (she got it from a record) sang it with all Cathy's mannerisims and peculiarities (and he does have rather a lot).
I have always been aware of The Critics Group being accused of sounding like either Ewan or Peggy, which left begging, the question of all the Carthy or Jonie Clones or the Bellamy Bleaters, or all the singers on the scene who lifted directly not just the songs, but the style from revival performers - warts and all.
Cap'n, I know Sheila Park - she was a resident at one of the clubs we ran. She was generous enough to let me have the last recording made of Harry Cox.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 05:12 AM

Collected = Bought the album
Reasearched = Borrowed the album

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Dec 06 - 04:21 AM

We all have to learn songs from somewhere or someone, whether it's from the printed page, a recording, or hearing a live rendition by another singer. I've learnt songs from all these types of source. I don't see anything to be ashamed of. Does it matter if the young woman in question learnt the song from a record of Martin Carthy's, or was personally taught it by Harry Cox? Sure, the latter would probably be better, but we don't all have the luxury of being able to get things from the horse's mouth, and sometimes have to make do with a 'second-hand' source.

IMO the young woman's only 'crime' is ignorance or lack of research. I don't know when the incident Jim mentions happened, but if it was years ago it would not have been so easy as it is today (with the Internet, DT etc.) to check the source of songs. I sang some songs for years before discovering the true source. I would just say "I don't know who wrote this song, but I heard it sung by Joe Bloggs - if anyone knows the writer, please tell me" or whatever. Then eventually I found out more about the song and was able to say more about its provenance.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 06:49 PM

on the subject of Harry cox,Sheila Park a fine singer from Norwich, did learn many of her songs directly from Harry Cox [ I dont mean from a recording]Jim Carroll you should look her up.it would be of interest to you, not just for the songs and her fine singing but for anecdotal reasons as well,this thread has deviated.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:23 PM

Did she get it from Martin (ie did he teach her) or did she learn it from a Martin Carthy recording - I think this is an important distinction in context?

There are none that I learned from him, several that I have taken in whole or part from his recordings, and one (of mine) that as far as I know he does not sing but he did say "good song" after my late wife and I played it at our then club when he was the guest, and I did say he was welcome to do it and give him a print of the words.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

actually, the important question - how was her rendition?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:23 PM

"I was at a club in London where a young woman said, "I'd like to sing a song I got from Martin (first name terms); she then sang The Barley Straw. I was in a bit of a bad mood (I think Thatcher had just won a third term), so I said "didn't Harry Cox sing that?" "

Jim, what would you have asked Harry Cox?

Better yet, what would have have said if she mentioned that she got it from Harry?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:20 PM

I also get hacked off with singers who simper onto their feet and say "I'd like to sing a Martin Carthy song or a Christy Moore song, and then sing a perfectly recognisable traditional song. This was summed up for me beautifully when I was at a club in London where a young woman said, "I'd like to sing a song I got from Martin (first name terms); she then sang The Barley Straw. I was in a bit of a bad mood (I think Thatcher had just won a third term), so I said "didn't Harry Cox sing that?"
She replied, "Oh, does he; did he get it from Martin too?"

I trust you put her right then, Jim?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:12 PM

Cap'n,
You say you respect my work as a collector - without wishing to offend (for a change) I don't need your respect - we did what we did because we enjoyed it - meeting the old singers. hearing what they had to say, recording their songs, just enjoying their company.
Sure, we thought it worthwhile, but any collector who tells you they didn't get a buzz from it is telling porkies.
If there is any respect on offer, perhaps it might be directed at the old singers who gave us the raw material to work with - and the best way to respect them is to look after what they've given us and see that it gets passed on in a state that future generations can enjoy it the way we have.
I get a little hacked off with people who say they don't like traditional singers because they're old; god save us all from old age. If we can't learn anything from Sam Larner or Phil Tanner, we're in the wrong game.
I also get hacked off with singers who simper onto their feet and say "I'd like to sing a Martin Carthy song or a Christy Moore song, and then sing a perfectly recognisable traditional song. This was summed up for me beautifully when I was at a club in London where a young woman said, "I'd like to sing a song I got from Martin (first name terms); she then sang The Barley Straw. I was in a bit of a bad mood (I think Thatcher had just won a third term), so I said "didn't Harry Cox sing that?"
She replied, "Oh, does he; did he get it from Martin too?"
I agree with Gervase and all those who say do it well because it's worth it. As much as I enjoyed the atmosphere of a folk club my main reason for making the effort was always to hear good songs well sung, the companiability was a bonus. If you do it as a get together, why confine it to folk song; why not run a weekly whist drive or a Tupperware party?
Jim Carroll
PS The last club I was in was The Cork Folk Club; I enjoyed it. Ireland was lucky to have good traditional singers much later than Britain and many of the younger singers benefited from sitting in with them and learning from the fount.
The Irish singing scene has its own problems but they tend not to be lack of skill or failure to take the music and song seriously,

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:00 PM

Oh, and the skiffle clubs are still thriving...

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM

Iagree with the last five posts.,
home made music or skiffle had these attributes.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM

Agree with Julian. I thought that was very much what I was trying to say.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: John Routledge
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

Surely it isn't necessary to want to get bookings as a reason to improve.

I want to improve because it makes singing more satisfying.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:55 AM

Agreed with most of that Julian, but there are people who enjoy being in a group of others singing and playing music, while not taking part themselves. Maybe they have no musical ability (or think they don't - I believe many people have more ability than they themselves realise); or maybe they just don't feel the urge to sing in front of others, perhaps through shyness or lack of confidence; or maybe there are other valid reasons to do with health or disability which would prevent them being able to take part.

Nevertheless these people (and we have a few regular attendees at our club singarounds, who never ever sing themselves) enjoy being part of a social gathering and are happy to be there. So I don't think it is always a loss to such people if they don't sing.