why well run folk clubs are important

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:43 PM

Bernard your remaks are absolutely cock on - exactly what I was getting at.

Some of the most undeserving twits have had the good fortune to start a folk club at the right time in the right place. Its like that parable of the sower of seeds - some places the seed just does not take.

the point is that they are all part of something bigger than the individual aims and ambitions of the various clubs. they are an expression of something fine and creative within our country. someting its worth feeling patriotic about - rather than the damn silly things that we fight wars about.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Bernard
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 12:23 PM

I think 'well run' is a bit of a red herring... a folk club is a bit of a lottery, and will be successful (or fail) despite the organisers. Admittedly a good organiser will make a difference.

What does make a big difference, I think, is the people who attend. They provide the 'atmosphere', that intangible something that would cost a fortune if bottled.

I'm also one of the organisers of the Open Door folk club, which is now based in Werneth, Oldham.

John and Pauline book some excellent guests, both big names and local lesser-knowns. Despite that, we rarely get more than ten in the room - often including the guest. Publicity doesn't help - we've tried everything. It's not that people come once and don't bother again - that would be a worry. They just don't turn up in the first place. The pub is nice and clean, the room is warm and comfortable, the beer is good, and the staff are friendly.

We have similar 'ingredients' at the Railway, yet we would worry if we had an attendance below thirty... and that doesn't include the organiser, residents, door staff or guests - who add up to more than we get in total at the Open Door.

There's nowt so queer as folk...

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:43 AM

This debate seems to be going round in circles.

The proposition is that well-run clubs are important. The difficulty is that everyone's perception of what "well-run" means is different.

As I and others have said, if there were no clubs at all, then it is difficult to see how an aspiring performer will ever get a chance to perform and learn their craft. So it would seem we need clubs, whether well-run or not. Obviously, being well-run is better than not being well-run, however you define the term. So what are we arguing about?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:36 AM

Quite right, Grab ...and 'tatty' back rooms often have much better accoustics than the plush furnishings, carpets and curtains of the alternatives!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Grab
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 11:32 AM

JT (and the Countess), let's look at it another way.

Suppose we say "no more informal folk clubs in pubs". No more singarounds, no more tune sessions. On-stage performance (at a tenner a ticket) is all we get, because we want to put a professional face on folk music. So what happens next...?

You're working under the assumption that what puts people off folk clubs is bearded shanty singers and a tatty room. As often as not in my experience though, what puts them off musically is some late-teens geek (or geekess) getting up with a guitar and singing a song they wrote last Tuesday and still haven't fully learnt. As often or not it'll be something about how misunderstood they are. If it's not that, it's a Dylan cover.

Now in a round-the-room situation, that's fine. They'll get some polite applause, and if people know it's the first time they've performed in public (or their first attempt at songwriting) then they'll get more appreciation for that. You've not paid anything (or it's a nominal amount), so no worries, and everyone has to start somewhere. The next singer will probably be someone who's a lot better. Rinse and repeat for a year or two, and chances are that they'll be a damn sight better by the end of that time.

But suppose this happens on stage? I for one would be wondering why I'd wasted my money, because if there's a take on the door to ensure that people can make a living off performance, then all the performers will be getting a cut of it. I'm a passive audience member paying to be entertained, and if it's not good quality then I won't be back.

More likely, if it's a stage situation then there'll be an audition beforehand, and they'd get turned down flat. And turned down at the next audition, and the one after that. Pretty soon they'd give up trying. After all, it's only the select few who can play in public, isn't it, and if you're merely average (or worse than that, a beginner) then you've no place playing in front of other people. Right?

Graham.

PS. Oh, and people will put up with a lot of tattiness in a room if the company, music and beer are good. Especially the company and the beer.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:37 AM

Just out of interest - does it matter if folk clubs are things that people come to a bit later in life? Ageing happens to all of us, so may be we do 'grow into' folks clubs in the same way that we 'grow out' of discos. The difference is, of course, that folk clubs will generally welcome people from outside their normal audience age range whilst you'll be laughed out of the average teenage night club if you wave your bus pass at the entrance!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 10:09 AM

guest jt,
last week when I was playing at swindon folk club., A young man of twenty made his singing debut,and gave a very fine performance, This particular club ,was the club that Dave Webber, and Mick Ryan both started at.
about fifteen per cent were of this age and another fifteen percent in their thirties, is that young enough for you.
if clubs were to give concessions to under twenty fives,and students this would probably bring even more in.
This is why well run folk clubs are important,.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:57 AM

Betsy
Through self admission your well run folk club exhibits:-

"Darby& Joan scenario"
"absence of young performers"
"may be running - like ourselves, out-of-steam"

After the self-analysis Betsy, how can you say "thank goodness for them"?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Outsider
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM

As an outsider reading this debate I would like to say that in my Very Humble Opinion that true FOLK music is not about ability of voice or instrument but the songs and sharing same with others. I have attended a folk club which has a Downes Syndrome girl as a regular attender and each week she sings (reading from a sheet) and the regulars listen and join in with choruses etc. and encourage her. Something you will never see at an Arts Centre type venue. Also, I have met ex-miners in their 80's who have songs to sing which should be captured somewhere and passed on. Those songs may be available now to the academic who may bother to go to the British Library etc. to look them up but FOLK music is about the people (hence : folk) not books, C.D.s etc. Although I personally prefer to hear well rehearsed, well sung and well written material I also realise they would not exist without the learning from the past!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Betsy
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 08:40 AM

"why well run folk clubs are important, is because ( I suspect ) the age group which most of us are, enables to congregate for friendship, old acquaintances meet some new people and share music ,songs and performances in a genre of Music to which has given us all lots of experiences over the years . I do sometimes fear at times that we are veering into a Darby & Joan scenario, with the seemingly absence of younger performers being whisked off to bigger venues, before they've served their "apprenticeships" and as a consequence got to know the grass root audiences and organisers.
A big "Well done" to those who have persisted, and kept clubs going, esp. those mentioned who have served their clubs for 40 odd years.
There is a VAST difference to a performance in a Civic Centre and a Club room - shitey beer,( probably can't take it inth auditorium with you),impersonal voyeurish atmosphere, instead of an intiminate congregation of of performer and audience .People who attend get their night of entertainment from it ,and big venues are rightly agreat benefit to performers, but unfortunately or otherwise , subscribers to this Site , myself included, still have values and expectancies of a performance , which , who knows , may be running-like ourselves , out-of-steam.
As for the Wag who wrote earlier - "good enough for f*lk'/'why bother to tune', the South tried to foist self-publicist B.Bragg onto to the folk scene and I have never knowingly heard him with his guitar in-tune. Why he has made a good living in the South/London ,and never featured in the North whether in a Civic centre or a pokey Folk Club might tell us more about "why well run folk clubs are important", and, I say thank goodness for them.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:32 AM

I dont think I ever said I disliked,art centres or festivals. nor did i talk about drinking copious amuonts of real ale.
any alcohol should be drunk in moderation, but I find it pleasant to have it available at inexpensive prices,as was the case at Swindon folk club.
if the countess and gervase read my thread,their points,accentuate why well run folk clubs are important] and in my opinion ARE as important as festivals[although for some reason it has become fashionable to knock clubs]and more important than art centres, because without clubs there would be no training ground for art centre performers.
Now lets be positive about clubs,realise their value and the sterling work many organisers put in, try and improve them where necessary,and give them the support they deserve.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:14 AM

Doesn't this thread just prove that we need ALL these different venues because so many different minded people at some point or other want to experience something that might loosely be termed 'folk'.

Personally I think tastes change through life as well as between different people. When I was a student my favourite 'folk' experiences were the late night concerts and noisy sessions/parties. That offered me the chance to combine my embryonic love of traditional song with the need to 'party' in common with fellow non folk-minded students. But the older I get the more I value the chance to listen with a more mature ear in a quieter setting, and the more grateful I am when I receive appreciation and respect from my audience. I've been to the odd arts centre and theatre concert recently and enjoyed the experience. But it comes no where near the pleasure I get from sitting in my local club each week, meeting with friends, sharing songs old and new, and watching the enthusiastic teen/twenties lads (who regularly attend and sing)get better each week. Oh, I still relish the festivals, with their positive orgy of goods - concerts/sessions/workshops/showcases etc - but they simply wouldn't be what they are if the artists (and quite often the audience too) couldn't maintain their enthusiasm and participation through the folk club networks.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: julian morbihan
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:48 AM

This all started from Dick stating how good an evening he had at the Swindon Folksingers Club. That particular club's main reason for existing is to allow its members to sing. A guest is a real added bonus.

And yes there are real care in the community people who attend and sing. Some may not be good singers but they all enjoy the participation. I recall one new older couple coming for two weeks and just listening, on the third week they announced that they would also like to sing, their introduction said that we might not know the song and then launched into Puff the Magic Dragon. Their repertoire has increased considerably since then though they still like the f*lk music of the sixties!

This kind of participation and inclusion would not be tolerated at an Arts Centre but is almost expected at the old, crusty, dyed in the mill, archaic clubs!

Long live the "traditional" folk club!

Now, calm down and quiet please, I want to listen to some singing without an argument (not discussion) going on in the background.

thanks

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:40 AM

Oh, and just to annoy people - 100!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 03:39 AM

There are two premises in this thread that are quite capable of co-existence - that well-run folk clubs are a good thing, and that there are an awful lot of absolutely dire places.

In my experience, however, the dross outweighs the gold. I'm with countess richard in actually liking to see an eclectic mix, it's one of the reasons why festivals are so inspiring; seeing a bunch of youngsters at an LNE gives me confidence that the music of the people of this country isn't dying.

The first time I took my now-wife to a 'folk music' event was a pub singaround at Chippenham at which everyone was in full voice, backed by a wall of sound from the Wilson family. She found it truly awesome, and when she recovered the power of speech was easily persuaded to go to Sidmouth the following month.

We arrived late, and the first exposure she had to the festival was the Late Night Extra. Her jaw dropped at the band playing a bhangra-morris crossover tune, and at the heaving lines of dancers that would have put an eighties rave to shame. "And thisis folk too?" she asked. The atmosphere was electrifying and she was instantly hooked on folk music in its purest sense.

And then...
Then we started going to clubs and smaller events to feed the new-found craving. Some of them, like Sharp's and Maidenhead, are gems; well-run and welcoming, and I wish we could have gone every week. But others have been dire; so dire as to make my wife (a complete newcomer to folk music) shake her head and wonder why so many apparently odd and inadequate people are drawn to it - life's shaky eggs, as she calls them.

And yet it's that sort of club that is associated with the phrase 'folk club'. A dank, unlovely place where people stumble humbly in and then endure a grotesque parade of egotism and musical and social ineptitude in the hope of hearing one good item. Such places are hopefully the past rather than the future of folk music, and yet they are probably the first experience of it for many people. Hence 'f*lk', because 'folk' is a dirty word. Hence 'roots', 'world', 'accoustic'; anything but f*cking f*lk for fear of scaring the punters.

My local venue here in west Wales is a case in point. The guy who runs it has worked bloody hard to build up a series of excellent nights that draw musicians and audiences from a wide area to play jazz, rock, techno, bhangra, house - you name it and it packs the punters in.

Apart, that is, from the folk nights. "I love folk music," he says. "I come from a morris background, for f*ck's sake and I spent my youth getting pissed in folk clubs; and yet if I put on a 'folk' night here I know it will bomb and I'll lose money. Open mic nights and accoustic nights are fine, although we get some crap stuff - just as crappy as the folk stuff that people say they hate - but call it 'folk' and the punters run a mile." And that's from the horse's mouth.

Think of the stock comedic cliche of the fat, bearded teacher with tankard and finger in ear singing driges about how horrid life is down the pit. It's a cliche because it's bloody true! For myself (fat and beared though I am) I'd love to see a few more tattoos, piercings and general unruliness at folk clubs. If the music isn't robust enough to withstand that, thrive and infect a new generation then words fail me.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: LesB
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 07:14 PM

From my viewpoint Art Centers are purely a concert venue & no more. Localy they put on bigger name artists than clubs can afford, but it is just that "a concert", with concert prices.
There is no involvement in the event, about every couple of months you just turn up, pay your money, enjoy the concert & go home. Not a substitute for a well run club, nor should it be.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:54 PM

Dick

Are you reading the same topic as I am?

"Move with the times or the times will leave you behind" is my way of saying that if a lot of folk clubs want to shake off the steriotypical image that was portrayed earlier in this thread and appeal to a wider audience, they will have to market themselves in tune with the times or be left to wither and die on the vine, so to speak. Well run folk clubs would recognise this and act accordingly.
Increasingly, Arts Centres are hosting well run folk events because they are giving the paying customer what they want these days and can pay the artists a decent wage. You don't have to be affluent to afford them. Concessions are available so no one need be excluded and that includes the list that you, so condescendingly, supplied. Nor is the swigging of copious ammounts of affordable real ale a compulsory requirement for the enjoyment of the experience. If you don't move on - You'll be gone.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:54 PM

GUEST JT.Move with the times or the times will leave you behind. this sounds like political spin. can you please clarify what you mean., and what relevance it has to the topic.[ which is the importance of well run folk clubs],if you mean we should all go and sit in art centres and never go to folk clubs, please say so,even if it is not relevant to the original thread.
I never said that art centres didnt have a part to play, for those affluent enough to afford them [that excludes students, professional folk singers,nurses unemployed, O A P S]Which is another reason why well run folk clubs are important.,for those of us who wish to have a choice, at an affordable price with affordable, real ale.
I would advocate this slogan, if you dont use it [your local folkclub]youll lose it.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:22 PM

"bearded persons in tie-dyed frocks swigging from tankards"

That's my kind of girl!

Villan

There's nothing wrong with any two people "having a go at each other" as long as the "having a go" remains within the confines of healthy debate. From where I stand one persons' argument is objective and controlled, the others' is a gut reaction to perceived critisism. Never the twain will meet but it helps me to make my mind up.
Move with the times or the times will leave you behind is the conclusion I am reaching.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

Remarks after the first line were of course addressed to the countess and not to the Villan - In case you didn't realise!

:D

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:07 PM

You are quite right about the interesting thread Villan but why should a public invitation to disagree on a public forum be settled in private?

You are not telling people how to run clubs, yet you are "for hastening a total rethink, for advocating the new-style venues; the arts and leisure centres and well-run night clubs where artists actually get paid the going rate with proper contracts and punters pay little more"?

You are not making inflamatory comments yet you correct spelling errors and say "if the cap fits" suggesting that I am somehow being misely?

You say that pensioners are ever so well off and admit to spending the £200 fuel allowance on CDs when so many on a fixed pension cannot manage to live without it?

Sorry countess but I have no argument against such mixed messages. I am going to take Villans advice and leave it at that. I will continue to enjoy running and going to folk clubs while you mix with your young artists in Art Centres and trendy venues. I guess from the fact that you get heating allowance that you are a pensioner yourself? Who am I to begrudge an old lady a few little pleasures in her declining years:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:53 PM

please dont take offence, countess richard, but Paul Simon was also refused a floor spot,by DaveCooper back in 1963,at the rising sun in catford.
[what does being the levs mean].the other point is you mustnt fall into the trap of generalising from the particular.Most folk clubs are run by unpaid volunteers in a professional manner and are an important part of their localcommunity.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:33 PM

come on you two just stop it. This was an interesting thread until the flaming took over.

Couintess Richard and Dtg, may I suggest you continue your own personal battle by PM and sort things out.

It doesn't serve any purpose to have a go at each other on this thread.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:28 PM

Dick, as I have already said, these new visitors to a 'f*lk club' were causing no disturbance whatsoever during the performance. They were treated with immediate suspicion by bearded persons in tie-died frocks swigging from tankards.

The Levellers (so they say) were actually thrown out of a club for talking and being the Levs. They weren't even allowed a floor spot.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 04:23 PM

Don't tell others how to run their own clubs

I have never told anyone how to run a venue. It's not what I do. I've made suggestions when asked, such as who to book. I have opinions on how venue management has to move on to accommodate changing economic, cultural and artistic considerations. It isn't 1961 any more.

inflam[M]atory comments

None from me. The "care in the commmunity cases who regard the 'f*lk club' as their own personal drop-in centre" was from a performer in a previous thread on this very subject which I found particularly apposite.All clubs (and I've been to 100s, past and present) seem to have them, probably even yours (which I have never visited and so have not, obviously, passed comment on it except to remark that it was probably fine. Everybody's had (probably more than one) night out from hell at the Rat & Cockroach with its filthy back room. The remark about those who like to keep their wallets shut was addressed at those who whinge at the very idea of paying enough at the door to guarantee an adequate fee for artists. Didn't (necessarily) mean you at all. It's a case of 'if the cap fits'. And pensioners are ever so well off nowadays with concessionary entrance, free travel and £200 p.a. to spend on CDs. Not to acknowledge that is extraordinarily churlish.

I have never said I don't like clubs generally. I have stated, not for the first time, how they need to change drastically with the times. And that I deplore the cliquey, unwelcoming attitude prevailing in some (actually many), naming none specifically. You'll know who you are. Or perhaps not. And maybe that's the problem. All power to those setting up the alternative circuit.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:58 PM

every music has its conventions ,if Iwent to a jazz gig in a pub as I did last time I was at lancaster maritime festival, its accepted and ok to talk quietly.
If i go to a folk or classical concert in an arts centre,the following conventions are not acceptable talking ,swearing, spitting, masturbating,streaking,starting a mexican wave,neither are they accepted in a folk club.
So if countess richard took her friends to a martin carthy concert at an arts centre, it is not acceptable to talk during the performance, and she would be shushed in just the same way as at a folk club, so what is she on about,it doesnt stop her from going or her friends to an art centre, a bit illogical.
you were actually to blame, countess for not explaining the conventions to your friends,why should they be allowed to spoil other peoples enjoyment, if they are 18 or 80 is irrelevant,if this had happened in an arts centre, would they never go back to an arts centre.it should be a salutary lesson to them to treat other performers with the respect that they would like themselves, if they were playing in an art centre.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:46 PM

So it's OK for you to talk nonsense but when someone else starts they need to go and have a lie down? :-) I am quite capable of reading what has been posted.

a clientele significantly different from a crowd of care in the commmunity cases who regard the 'folk club' as their own remedial drop-in centre.

a night out from hell at the Rat & Cockroach

a whole lot more congenial than the average filthy pub back room

I'll know what to think about those continue to consider it OK just because it enables them to keep their wallets shut.

pensioners are ever so well off these days

I've just had the £200 annual CD buying present from the government land in my account . . .

Recognise any of the above?

How many more ways can I say it? If you don't like folk clubs stay out of them. Maybe your views are valid but seeing as you are into cogent analysis how are they any more valid than anyone elses? And how are your inflamatory comments helping your case? Don't tell others how to run their own clubs. Just go away and run your own. I am sure you will do much better.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:18 PM

Hello JT, do I know you?
(Don't worry, I'm used to it. Had it from these buggers and their ilk for 40 years . . .)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:16 PM

stop the nit picking countess

Er, doing what, exactly? Having standards?

sing from the same song sheet

Though not all in the same key, obviously. Any old crap is 'good enough for 'f*lk'.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 03:15 PM

It's great to see the knee-jerk reaction when someone challenges the status-quo and critisizes the traditional folk club model.It's logical that the points raised by countess richard have to be addressed in the name of "progress". It's equally important that the old maxim, "If it 'aint broke, don't fix it" applies to those clubs that have succeeded in finding a formula that works. Instead of villifying countess richard for expressing her views in an honest and forthright fashion, she is to be congratulated, in my opinion, for sticking her head above the parapet and opening up the debate.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: billybob
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:54 PM

Hi Dick, as you know Billy and I ran folk clubs for *** years, always happy to put in cash if the door was not enough,ran a certain festival too. We love our local folk club in Wivenhoe, the organisers deserve our heartfelt thanks, ( saw Johnny Silvo last week) as do all club organisers.We also enjoy the folk club in Colchester at the St Mary's Art Centre, still a club although more a concert venue and a chance to see more expensive guests.
Our son is the manager of a new venue, in Bungay Suffolk,a theatre and community arts centre, fully staffed 7 days a week the folk events will hopefully be a sucess, and I am sure will feel like a community club.Long live folk music where ever it is, stop the nit picking countess and sing from the same song sheet!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:45 PM

DtG

Do go and have a lie down.
Don't come back till you've recovered the ability to read what's written and follow a cogent analysis of where music venues are now and how they need to progress.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:29 PM

Tsk, tsk, countess, you have broken my heart. OK then. Seeing as you don't like to mix with the Hoi Polloi perhaps I will repeat it again after all. If you don't like folk clubs STAY OUT OF THEM. Might it also be advisable, if you don't like folk clubs, to stay away from folk club threads? If you have nothing good to bring to the party why go? Perhaps we can then get on with answering the question posted by Dick.

Well run folk clubs are indeed important. They give both audience and artists a venue where they can mix in amiable surroundings. The host venue is irrelevent - Be it a pub, night club (Incredible String Band at the Komedia in Brighton was the biggest folk club I have ever been to) or a Leisure centre (Who remebers Horwich Folk Festival?) Regardless of what has been said the majority of folk clubs are friendly places where everyone is made to feel welcome. There are exceptions of course but these are in a distinct minority.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:17 PM

DtG

No thanks.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:16 PM

Intelligent and amicable Mr Peters,

Did I say the young musicians were kicking up a racket during someone else's performance?
I did not and they were not.

It was very much the 'here comes trouble' treatment.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:12 PM

They are actually members of a highly respected, up-and-coming ceilidh band. All four are highly qualified musically. (Ooo-er). They're not at all keen on 'f*lk clubs. I can see why. I was embarrassed.

Set of arty pratts with chips on their shoulders then. I'm not surprised you were emabarrased to be seen with them either. You need to mix with normal people like me more:-)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:07 PM

Respect to the performer. I think its called good manners.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Brian Peters, being intelligent and amicable
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 02:04 PM

Countess certainly has a point in that the general public don't always find the folk club format comfortable. We've all seen the non-folkies who leave after the first dud floor singer, the non-stereotypical kids who get the "here comes trouble" treatment, the people who just came to sit and listen but were intimidated by the well-meant invitation to contribute a song. Many people enjoy their live music in an atmosphere somewhere half way between hushed reverence and riotous assembly.

But the point about the songs that people like me sing is that they tell stories and work better if people listen. You'd get shushed for talking in a classical concert and - no doubt - in a Wood / Lupton Arts Centre event. Folk clubs at their best manage to maintain a balance between good order for listening and informality and (dare I say it) fun. They may only ever appeal to a minority but that doesn't mean they're redundant.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:47 PM

talking loudly, belching, farting

Did I mention any of these activities Dick? I did not.
Did I say that the young people I brought for the first time to a 'f*lk club' were treated with dismissively?
Yes I did.
They are actually members of a highly respected, up-and-coming ceilidh band. All four are highly qualified musically. (Ooo-er). They're not at all keen on 'f*lk clubs. I can see why. I was embarrassed.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:43 PM

Gentlemen & Ladies

This thread says "why well run clubs are important"

This is starting to get into a personal battle.

Well run clubs are important and are likely to pull punters in.

I think I have a good well run concert style club, but I have no right to tell other clubs what to do - thats up to them - and by the same token, they have no right to tell me what to do.

Get a grip.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:25 PM

I've already spotted it, Dick - See above. The alternate reality called London. Rich pensioners, dingy pubs etc. Include full of ignorant people;-)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:17 PM

If people are glared at and shushed for nothing then can I suggest the name 'Folk Off Club"? If, on the other hand, they are glared at and shushed for being noisy during the act and spoiling the night for people who want to listen perhaps a different name could be suggested? Sensible springs to mind!

:D

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 01:14 PM

Dear countess, if people cant show respect to a performer in a folk club, by talking loudly, belching, farting etc.,might i ask are they allowed to do this in an art centre. no.WITH RESPECT YOUR TALKING BALDERDASH.
now I play in apubs in ireland, and am used to a little bit of disrespect, but i prefer singing at the Cork singers club where I and other performers enjoy respect,when you talk about breath of fresh air ,I interpret that as ignorance, bad manners and lack of consideration, young people are people and deserve no more respect thean middle aged or elderly people.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:48 PM

....'cause they're bloody good fun!
Haven't been to one this year that wasn't! - hugs - HFA

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:34 PM

Scrump, well you did rather misunderstand. 'Acoustics' and 'open mics' have a lot of rubbish in them too which is rather painful to sit through in order to discover the occasional gem. I was saying, additionally, that the Arts or Leisure Centre venues (not necessarily large) are very much more inclusive towards the entire community than the narrow cliques that inhabit old-style clubs (bear in mind that I did stress earlier that I was generalising wildly).

I then went on to talk about a completely new circuit, characterised by The Fence Collective, or Peter Paphides' promotions, The Magpie's Nest, that boat in Bristol which I can't, for the moment, remember the name of (it's my age), all of which are the subject of threads passim. Can't say I'm over fond of absolutely everything that goes on in all of them. But they're run by and predominantly for young people, they don't judge and don't mind if you're noisy and they let me in. Air, Fresh and Breath of spring to mind.

I have, from time to time, brough people I've met at ceilidhs to 'f*lk clubs' to see an act they've first encountered at, say, an LNE. Time after time they've been horrified and vowed never to go anywhere near such an establishment again because they've been shushed and glared at and made to feel so unwelcome. Quite a good reason to think about calling them something else, and running them differently.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:31 PM

the point is that folk clubs are vitally important,if nothing else as a link, a feeder a place where stagecraft can be learned before performing in an ART CENTRE.now that is only one aspect,folk music is a continuous stream,the club is an integral part of keeping alive and developing folk music , it is also a CLUB,[something a festival and an art centre is not]it helps to build up a strength in a local community,.
something I fear this government and other capitalist governments would rather disappear.
when communitys stand together ,it is more difficult for governments and big business to divide and rule.
The destruction of communitys has been brought about by two world wars,encouraging people to get in debt with huge mortgages,so they are afraid of losing their jobs.then relocating industry in the third world where labour and working conditions are cheap and poor respectively,whole communities are then forced to scatter and break up.Sheffield, teeside, the rhondda valley.it is important for communities to try to strengthen themselves folk clubs in my opiniondo this through the power of friendship and song.DickMiles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:31 PM

It's OK, countess - I have got it now:-) Good wind up and we all fell for it!

Get my own back time...

I've just realised what parallel universe you are in! Dingy pubs, rich pensioners, subsidised Art Centres showing Nicaraguan nose flautists and Lesbian slate embossing workshops on every corner. You don't live in a certain large city in the South East of England do you?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: the fence
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:31 PM

As with everything it seems to be personal choice!!! Without the traditional folk club a lot of people would not be given the chance to get up and sing(whether badly or not). And I personally believe the friendly atmosphere at a small folk club is something that cannot be found at any large venue. c.r. you would be made very welcome at any of the clubs I attend, but equally should 'I' wish to see more well known artists e.g. 'pogues' Saw Doctors' I would go and do so. The small 'old fashioned' folk clubs of today have a part to play, encouraging new talent and giving a social meeting place. I for one am very grateful to them!!!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:19 PM

Oh, that one, Mick. I'm quite prepared to talk about that but I'm surprised that peeps don't know. I regard the term 'folk' to be so terminally damaged as to be quite, useless and indeed counter-productive. This is because it has been abused (especially in North America) to encompass anyone with an acoustic guitar and penchant for producing instrospective crap which ought never to be allowed beyond his/her bedroom door, or alternatively, wifty-wafty, new-agey, pseudo-celticky drivel, each of which has penetrated the consciousness of the general public who, if they think about it at all, think this is 'folk'. It is such an abusage that I satirise it as a Whitehoused swearword.

[As for the rest if what the Guest said, I can only advise an accelerated comprehension and literacy course which may assist in assimilation of what I actually said. Ha! Expect the majority of Mudcat users to READ THE POSTS?]

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM

Scrump, you are ignoring (or perhaps are entirely unaware of) a vast and vibrant assortment of young musicians who wouldn't be seen dead in a 'f*lk club' of the 'traditional'? (by which you might mean 'conventional' /'60s-revival-type) who are, as we speak, establishing their own venues. As a very well-known, highly visible musician (who I won't name as it always causes knickers to twist) said: (I paraphrase wildly cos I can't remember exactly), 'if there's a new revival going to happen it will be without the old guard even noticing'.

Actually, it's a bit inaccurate to call them 'young musicians'. There's quite a few old(ish) chaps and chappesses picking up gigs on this circuit. And getting paid properly.

That's fine - as long as there are places where people can go and learn to perform in public, that's good. I don't care whether they are called folk clubs, acoustic clubs or whatever. If the name 'folk club' is off-putting to young people, then I have no problem if a folk club wants to call itself an acoustic or open mic venue. The important thing to me is that such places exist, not what they are called.

I thought from your earlier postings that you were advocating that folk clubs should not exist and only larger "Arts Centre" type venues should exist. Apologies if I misunderstood you.