why well run folk clubs are important

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: julian morbihan
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

One aspect that seems to be missing from all the discussion going on is that a folk club is just that - a club. A gathering of like minded people to socialise.

A folk club as such is there for a group of people to sing. Standards do not matter, it is friends entertaining each other and being entertained. If a person doesn't sing that is their loss. If a person sings badly, may be the next time they will have more confidence and sing better. If someone needs the words written out in front of them to get through a song, so be it. If someone can memorise the song and get further into the singing, so much the better. The people sing because they want to. Not to improve to get bookings, just for the delight of making music.

Nuff said.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:55 AM

breezy? blowing? wind? There seems to be a draught in here.

Hope it's real draught ale ;-)

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:43 AM

Nice to see breezy blowing his own trumpet. Who knows what will happen in Spring / Summer '07. I suppose you'll just have to wait and see which way the wind blows.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: breezy
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 09:13 AM

In response to brdsye's qstns

Its a social thing for most of us, we enjoy listening to each other .

over the year our regulars have come to rely on th opportunity

I adopted the Ian Campbell philosophy regards floor singers, but there are opportunities around for total beginners.

we have tried to encourage youngsters.

we tried 'singers'nights' but no one came and we had emerged from that scenario anyway because we began as a sing session where we all put an pound in the pot.

The banter between artiste and singer breaks away from a concert, more an intimate gathering, max att 65

but now after 7 years and having launched papavgeris, flegg , Connolley and last and having booked some of the best its time to change

Yes I do perform , mainly as a host but only if there is slack time or the evening needs a 'pick-up'

my latest CD was recorded live last month and is entitled 'In One Take' thanks to Chris Flegg the sound engineer.

we have also filmed some of our guests and ressis, so I have a form of record of what we have achieved

Our venues have not been the best, but who knows what'll happen in the Springsummer of 07

if I get the 'bug' maybe something will come about as I know we are going to miss not meeting up

This Sunday Steve Last will headline, the following Sunday 10th we will converge on the Rose and Crown in St Albans

this Monday Webber and Fentiman at Herga where I'll be appearing in April

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 07:12 AM

In that case, GUEST,John C, the club concerned is not IMO well-run because they should ensure there is publicity to make it clear what is happening each week.

The well-run clubs I know do that, and I've never known any problem of people turning up expecting a paid guest, on a session night. Some non-performing people do turn up at sessions, but they know what to expect and are happy to join in a friendly evening's entertainment for a very small outlay. As I said, I wouldn't expect a session night/singaround to charge as much as a guest night, just enough to cover costs. So even if someone turned up on the 'wrong' night, they would at least not have to pay much, and they may even be pleasantly surprised.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,John C
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 06:21 AM

aye, but most of them are called clubs, so people who want concerts don't come because they think they'll get a circle, which they often do even when it's meant to be a concert.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 05:27 AM

IMO the distinction between what GUEST,John C says above calls 'circles' and 'concerts' is what happens already, for what I would call well-run clubs, i.e. some clubs only book well-established guests and good quality (in terms of performance) support acts - these are what I call 'concert' type clubs; and the more informal clubs where people meet up for the enjoyment of playing music with others, or in front of others while they are learning their craft (often called singarounds or sessions).

People attending a 'concert' venue will pay a reasonable entry fee that will cover the cost of the booked artists (hopefully, anyway - if not then the event will make a loss, and continued losses will cause the club to close). People attending the 'circles' type of event (to use John C's term) will only pay a nominal fee to cover the cost of running the event (e.g. the cost of hiring the room in a pub).

The latter type may see performances from people who are not (yet) of a 'professional' standard, understandably as the participants are still learning. Yes, it may well be that some of these individuals will never progress beyond a basic ability and will never reach the standard required to 'progress' to performing in front of a paying audience. But that doesn't matter - they are there for the enjoyment of making music among friends, primarily, not to become the next star performer.

The problems arise when you try to combine the two types of event. Some clubs I know do both, but not on the same evening, e.g. they might have guests every other week, alternating with singarounds or sessions.

Clubs that try to combine the two run the risk of alienating the audiences they wish to attract, by putting on substandard unpolished performers alongside professional guests, with the result that audiences might begrudge the entrance fee, even if the guest is good, because they have to sit through what they see as 'rubbish' beforehand (we've all been there). It seems from what I've heard that some clubs still try to do this, and I think these are the ones that are not 'well run'.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 04:12 AM

From recent experience the younger generation, in this country at least, are setting up alternative venues to the established folk clubs to get away from the cloying atmosphere therein. This is where the tradition will be carried on in the future when the current generation of clubs disappear through "natural wastage". It won't die out, it will continue under a different guise - it will move with the times.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Dec 06 - 03:02 AM

Well MRFC have a 16 year old who is a resident performer on tonight as well as another youger person in the name of Tina Taylor.
Over time, quite a few younger performers have been on at MRFC

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:12 PM

How many clubs to you visit Tootler? I've been to about 75% of the English ones and quite a few in Scotland and Wales. I seldom see anyone under 50, and the vast majority are well over 60. I've brought younger people into clubs, but very few like it, and even fewer go back to become regualrs.(There are a handful of clubs with younger members, but only a handful).

Festivals ARE healthy from an age point of view, but clubs (as they stand) are on the way out.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:01 PM

In my last post, I meant Guest 06:01, not Guest 07:44's rant.

Guest 07:44, you say that clubs as we know them will die out with the present generation is a fact.

How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball to see into the future? You cannot know this. None of us can. You are presenting an opinion which others may or may not agree with.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,John C
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:59 PM

Ok. Time to put it on the line. We've muddled along with this duality for long enough.

What we need is schism.

People like Tootler who want to make informal music for fun go in one church.

People like Guest who want to music to be well-played and sung in the church.

Clubs can may longer sit on the fence. By edict.

We ban the word 'club.'

We'll call the joiny-in, socially-motivated events 'circles'

And we call the other things 'concerts'

How about that, people?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:52 PM

Well said Guest above. You echo my views exactly and have put very well points I have been trying to get over.

To my way of thinking folk clubs serve a particularly useful function which seems to be unique in music. They provide an opportunity for informal music making with like minded folk. No matter that the singing or playing is less than perfect, they give people an opportunity to have a go and in my view that is what is important.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:44 PM

Sharps? SHARPS? Don't make me laugh! (Been twice, NEVER again - the most patronising, ignorant audience I've ever encountered)!

Guest, the survival of clubs (as we now know them) is not the issue. They will die out with the current generation. Fact.

We are discussing how the MUSIC might be saved.

Look: Archives will not suffice. Yes, maybe someone will dug up some songs and tunes some time in the future - but by then it will be too late. Like latin - of academic value only.

This music is worth saving because it was well-written, and/or it has been rescued and re-envigorated by talented people, over time. We owe the writers, and we owe the people who kept the flame.

It's GOOD goddamit. It deserves to be treated with respect.

I don't care what excuses people may have for singing or playing badly. Hell I can be rubbish myself - but only in the privacy of my own home.

If an event is advertised, with all-comers welcome, and money's changing hands at the door, then some standards MUST apply.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:01 PM

I think that quite a lot of the criticism that has been voiced on this thread is probably has some validity, but I can't help wondering why it is voiced. Surely if you are not happy with the standard of performance at your local club, then the answer is either to become involved with the organisation yourself and see whether you can introduce the changes you would like, or alternatively to start a different club that runs in the way you feel is appropriate. If you are not prepared to do either of these, then why feel you have the right to criticise other people's efforts? After all - if there is an audience at all at the clubs you are citing, then they must suit some people, and those people have as much right to their pleasure as you do.

I am not directing this objection at any particular person, so please, don't any contributors take it personally. It's just that as I have read through the thread I can't help but sympathise with Dick, who seems keen to find positive things to say. Like him I find there are clubs that suit my tastes better than others, and at least three have them have been mentioned already as good examples of 'well run' clubs. But NONE of those three ever vetoes performers for being sub-standard, on guest nights or any other. They are wonderful places to visit because they are welcoming to all and over the years I have seen many 'folk virgins' become valuable members because they can feel that.

If some people are 'put off' by the 'low standards' or amateurish performances, then they have the right not to return. But I know that just as many people are encouraged by the spectrum of standards that they find to perhaps try themselves. After all, if all you see at a club is accomplished, professional performances, then you are likely to think 'I can't do that'. But if you hear a few less polished items being equally supported, that may just give you the courage you need to begin to sing. And there are not many other opportunities to make that first step these days.

Why are 'well run' folk clubs important? Not to preserve the music. We have a wealth of archive material for that, and the purists would argue that the time has past for that now anyway. Precious few folk club performers are source singers any more. Not to put more bums on seats. That's a commercial concern and may be important for the preservation of a particular building's use, or a particular person's salary, but it's not the reason for the existence of most folk clubs. For me they are important because it's a great thing to be able to feel the power of song, and to share it with friends, and a folk club can do that. The clubs vary a lot because different groups of people find different ways of accessing the music, or place more or less importance on the songs/friendship. But they are each important to the people that attend them, and it's not my place to tell them to conform to MY ideal.

If your concern is that the purity of traditional songs is maintained, or that we must be ever striving for innovative ways to present them then I respect your right to continue to collect, archive, study or perform in ways that support your view. And I will probably be your most attentive audience member if you come to my local club. But the 'amateur' efforts of a few poeple who are less talented than you, or who work too hard to be able to practise as much as they would like, or who suffer too badly with nerves to be able to present a song professionally even when they have spent three months practicing it will not be what stops folk clubs surviving. More likely it will be the intolerance of those who would rather abandon them in favour of ivory towers.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:59 PM

The trouble is, Dick is a glass-half-full optimist who sees no cause for concern, whereas Jim (and myself and a few others) are simply being realistic.
I'm sure there are plenty of clubs that happily continue entertaining their regulars and providing a darned good evening's entertainment - as I said earlier, clubs like Sharp's, Maidenhead and Herga should be national treasures. They are the well run clubs that are indeed so important. But there are also many clubs that are bloody dire.
But even the well-run clubs tend to attract the same people - when I go to clubs I so often see 'the usual suspects'; the faces I see everywhere and (like my own) they're not getting any younger.
My own feeling, and nothing I've read here has altered it, is that the 'folk club' has had its heyday and we are now in the twilight years. And, just as there are still a few - a very few - pubs that have a trad jazz session of a Sunday, I'm sure some folk clubs will continue. But many will surely fade and wither as their punters do, and will eventually fold because no new blood is interested in attending.
Plenty enough have already gone that way, and plenty more will follow - and the sort of complacency that insists that 'nothing's wrong, so we don't need to do anything' will speed the decline.
OK, so it's an unpopular view, and I would love those who argue against it to be right, but I fear too many heads are in the sand. Folk music will endure as long as there are people, but folk clubs?

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:22 PM

It depends how you define bad singing.
You see I think Kate rusbys version of ranzo is inferior to BERT LLOYDS , a beautiful voice but no understanding of style, interpretation or the type of song she was singing,but its not bad as regards being in tune.
many blues singers were not always perfectly in tune but they sang with passion and they cOnveyed emotion.
Do you not accept that traditional music whether its blues or margaret barry[occasionally her banjo was out of tune]can lack polish, but still be exciting.[   e g some uillean pipers[often out of tune].      
I do agree with you about crib sheets,AND taking the piss out of songs,.
but if you only went to a club two months ago,rather than weekly your possibly generalising from the particular,why dont you try the cork singers club at[ an spalpin fanach] its very good.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 03:45 PM

Cap'n,
I am not condemning any of the people you mentioned - most worked at what they did (whether I like or dislike the end result is beside the point); I am criticising the 'near enough for folk' attitude which has prevailed since early in the revival, I am opposing the idea that working at singing lessens the pleasure (see this thread), I am objecting strongly to the suggestion that it is unwise to concentrate on competent performers because it will put off the incompetent ones (see this thread).
I did not say it was a long time since I visited a folk club; I said I stopped going regularly a long time ago. I go as often as I can; usually I find the old saying true; 'it is better to travel in hope than to arrive'. We don't have many in West Clare; the last time I was in a club was a couple of monthas ago and the last UK one was an absolute disaster (nationally known club with a nationally known guest), crib-sheets, out-of-tune singing, major forgetting of words, singers taking the piss out of the songs they were singing and a complete indifference to all these things - all in all, as enjoyable as an enema; (I haven't mentioned choruses being dragged down to half the speed takn by the singer, people singing along with non-chorus songs - occasionally with the same version, but this didn't seem to be a major consideration)
For me, the folk club is (or was) a perfect venue for traditional song, democratic enough to give an audience to anybody who comes along and informal enough to put people at ease to sing in a relaxed atmosphere. More and more it seems to have become a place where people go to practice.
You said in an earlier posting that if traditional singing dies it will be revived again - so what - I am concerned with what happens to it now, while I am still around to enjoy it.
I have no illusions about the 'good old days'; there have always been crap singers - a good club dealt with them tactfully, and certainly where I lived there were individuals and workshops to help them improve. There were certainly far more good singers about say fifteen years ago.
I have not read one argument that tells me things are improving in the clubs, rather I get the impression that people feel there is no need or room for improvement.
Bad singing will kill traditional song,; perhaps it is just as well as there is enough good singing documented on recordings to give people in the future a positive impression of what traditional singing was all about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: John Routledge
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 02:41 PM

Reading thread with great interest.

What is becoming clearer is that the essential ingredient for longevity is a core of quality and reliability.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: LesB
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 02:05 PM

Dick is saying "we should be studying the ingredients of a well run folk club", and mentioning the Bothy as well as others.
I can only tell you what works at the Bothy.

The club has always had good residents. Originally the Bothy Folk Group, then The Kings Shilling, after that a panel of resident singers & musicians were set up from among the floor singers.
This model is still working today. We have always tried to make sure a range of styles & tastes are catered for. Among our current residents we cover traditional, blues & contemorary material.

There is a guest night alternating with a singers night. On singers nights the residents do their usual spots intermixed with spots from 'floor singers'. Sometimes there are only one or two floor singers, therefore the residents are available to 'fill' the evening. Sometimes there are almost too many to squeeze in. The range of guests tend to cover the spectrum of styles as can be seen by the following list. HOOVER THE DOG, STEVE GILLETTE AND CINDY MANGSEN (USA), TOM LEWIS, DANA AND SUE ROBINSON, RATTLE ON THE STOVEPIPE, TOM DOUGHTY,THREE SHEETS TO THE WIND, SCOLDS BRIDLE, DAVE FLETCHER AND BILL WHALEY, GEORGE PAPAVGERIS, DAVE WEBBER AND ANNI FENTIMAN, ROGER WILSON, TRIO THRELFALL, KEITH CHRISTMAS, THE DEVIL'S INTERVAL. This represents Sept06-April07.

After years in a room above a grotty pub we were forced into making a move about 3yrs ago. We moved to a more comfortable, civilised venue. We are about to move again. We have got soft & now wont settle for anythig less, we think we have found the right place. Wenoticed a distinct improvement in attendance when we left the grot spot.

Finally we are very lucky in having a great frontman in Clive Pownceby.
I hope that this is of use to someone.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 02:00 PM

thankyou .

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:52 PM

I should apologize for the anger that came out in my last post. I'm sorry Dick, I'm sure you meant no harm either.   It really is a small point and I should not be making that much of an issue.   Your early posts are well thought out and I do agree with you in your approach to folk clubs.

Again, my apologies for the tone and context of my post.   We are a realtively small community and there is no need for any hostility in such discussions. I will think twice before posting like that again.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:40 PM

Dick, I resent your rather rude response. Please do not EVER tell me to stop wasting time. I made a point of disagreement and you appear to be twisting words.

Perhaps you did not read my note correctly either which is why you appear confused. I am referring to Leeneia's ORIGINAL post, to which you commented on.   YOU were the person who used the word "amateur", to which she later posted her query about the spelling.   She spoke of going to a classical concert for which she paid good money - that does not seem to indicate the performance was "amateur".

This is really a small point but I do not like people twisting words to see what they want to see.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:24 PM

yes she does and even queries the spelling of amateur,stop wasting time .

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:12 PM

"Selective" reading = tunnel vision. As long as it agrees with their point of view, they only see what they want to see Dick. Don't worry about it.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 01:01 PM

nor is she the one calling it an amateur performance

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:59 PM

which is what i have been saying, about long running clubs like swindon 46 years, and the bothy 42,dartford 32 years.
read my earlier posts and i state that we should be studying the ingredients of a well run folk club.
my posts of 22 nov, 25 nov, 28 nov, all state this and mention some of the ingredients that make well run clubs successful, please read these posts.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:45 PM

>>but one of what do the various types of venues have to do to survive and prosper.<<

Spot on Big Mick

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:35 PM

Dick, I think it is you who is guilty of not reading the other thread for comprehension. What that poster says, and then what she describes, are not the same thing. Methinks you need to slow down and get what the discussion is producing in that thread.

I agree with you on the central contention of this thread. And I think it is a valuable thread as it heightens the discussion of the future of venues for folk performers. But it seems as though you are inflexible in the discussion. This isn't really an "either/or" issue, but one of what do the various types of venues have to do to survive and prosper.

le gach dea-mhéin,      

Mick

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:27 PM

ron olesku, go back and read the posts. leenia clearly states that shes not referring to tuning[ in a later post].
I am not slanting the story to fit my own conclusion.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 12:22 PM

Ron olesko.there is plenty of evidence of sloppy performances outside of folk clubs.,vis my examples of the Stones and the Beatles in hamburg, Plus yank rachels mandolin on a Sleepy john estes recording.
I also have a recording of Sonny Terry and Brownie MCGHEE, at the end of one track Brownie quite clearly, says try playing in A sometime., [sounded like SONNY WAS PLAYING IN THE WRONG KEY].

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,You have been warned
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 11:37 AM

I think its a minority of guest booking folk clubs that tolerate anmateurish performances, even in singaround clubs people should be encouraged to improve, shown diplomatically [in private] their mistakes and helped.Bthere are very few people who are tone deaf or have no sense of rhythym and who cant improve with the correct help from club residents.Dick Miles

But Dick? Have you come across Tone Deaf Leopard yet ??!!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:23 AM

To Captain Birdseye, I suggest you re-read the note. For anyone to go to a classical concert and not understand the tuning that is involved for that type of setting is showing a high expectation that cannot be met. For you to call it an "amateurish" performance is not correct - you are slanting the story to fit your conclusion, which is not accurate.   It is one thing to discuss a folk setting, and I tend to agree with your thoughts, but to use that other thread as some sort of proof of your thoughts is just not appropriate.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 09:10 AM

Jim Carroll

I think are in danger of viewing the past through rose tinted glasses. While I would not in any way contradict you about the quality of the singers you mention, I suggest that they were the tip of an iceberg. In their young days, round the country there would have been local singers of varying standards some excellent, most competent and some not so good. In fact no different from today. I suggest you bear this in mind when criticising the performances in folk clubs.

It is rather like the difference between seeing the whole of a football match and seeing the edited highlights, the latter can give a false impression of the overall quality of the game.

folk clubs seem to be the only musical activity which promotes amatureism as a positive attribute...

I resent this. I am an amateur and not ashamed of it; music is a hobby for me. That does not mean I do not practice nor does it mean that I do not try to give of my best when singing or playing in a folk club nor does it mean I do not want to improve. I object to the use of the term "amateurism" as a synonym for substandard. Some amateurs reach very high standards indeed. That most don't achieve the standards you seem to demand is mostly due the fact that we have other demands on our time.

By their very nature folk club membership is largely amateur and for the most part the only audience is each other. If they give some pleasure to visitors or others who happen to be present, then that is a bonus.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:42 AM

Phew, thank goodness for that LOL

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:33 AM

Villan - your club is NOT in that category, as the rest of your post proves!

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:15 AM

TO GUEST JIM CARROLL. Ihave the utmost respect for you as a COLLECTOR,.
But can you tell me when you last attended a folk club,as Iam sure I read in one of your other threads that you hadnt been to a folk club for a very long time, if this is the case your comments should be classified as uninformed.,or possibly outdated.
Would you also be kind enough to suggest what you would like to see replace Folk clubs.
I recently saw somebody booked at a pub as Blue Moon.MIMING TO THE MUSIC AT THE SAME TIME, PLAYINGCHORDS C F G WHEN THE MUSIC WAS IN E MAJOR., Yes that was here in Ireland.At least FOLK CLUBS are honest.
finally dont forget the epitome of amateurs Dave Clark, THE DRUMMER Inthe dave clark five, [a drummer friend of mine was approached by CLARK who wanted lessons] but apparantly was the equivalent of tone deaf rhythym wise, and then the monkees who couldnt even play their instruments.There are plenty of amateurish performances outside of folk clubs.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Nick
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 08:06 AM

Is Wigan Folk Club a folk club? By the definition of the public paying it isn't but I reckon it's a rather special place though, due to distance, I have only been twice.

I went on a Thursday night and arrived at a large Victorian(?) pub in not the greatest area I have ever been to. If it started at 9 I think I got there a little earlier but the place buzzed.

In a squarish shaped large room you had individuals and groups of people finding seats around the room - chatting, tuning, drinking etc When Joan who runs it arrived it started and I then had about 3-4 hours of enormous fun listening and playing to a hugely diverse group of people. If I remember the standard was generally good. There were stacks of people there to play and a load more who just watched.

It's well run; people behave and respect each other it seemed to me; the organiser takes the trouble to prepare a weekly communal song that everyone sings; etc etc

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:45 AM

>>then there's the problem of the organiser who only runs a club so s/he can get an audience, and, even worse, then puts on someone even more dire than them - so they'll sound good by comparison. and some do this on guest nights. <<

My club is in that category.

However, we have never knowingly put somebody on who is not competent, and never ever put somebody on who is genuinly crap, to make the main guest look good. When you have various performers in one night, you are bound to get people where the style of a performer does not suit their taste. That is unavoidable.
There are all levels of performer coming through the club, but all of them are capable of doing a 25 minute spot and more often than not a darn sight more. They also do their best to change their songs on a regular basis.
Neither does the club put the least experienced on first, unless it is better for them. What we try to do is get as much change in style between each performer as possible, so the audience gets a nice evening. Of course that is not always possible but in the main it works.

Market Rasen Folk Club

Unless feedback to me is not honest, I get the impression that the standard for such a young concert venue is very high, with plenty of variety at affordable prices for a very rural village. The object is not to make massive profits, but bring live music to a rural community, that otherwise would be deprived as such.
We get good audiences that range from worst 35 to best 89

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:10 AM

yes including the[[ Beatles [in germany]a drummer who couldnt keep steady time [ not Ringo]and a bass gutarist that by his own admission couldnt play [ not paul]]],,AND THE ROLLING STONES in their early days,who were according to reputable witnesses, out of tune and barely competent.
to ron olesko, ,the correspondent did not have high expectations she was expecting the group to be well rehearsed,and not to rehearse on stage[ in front of the paying public] before the concert[ reasonable enough.]

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,Jc
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 07:01 AM

what's unique about folk clubs is that you'll get both ends of the scale on the same night, from the terrible to the brilliant. which is fine (even admirable) for members and the initiated but which sure horrifies any paying punters.

then there's the problem of the organiser who only runs a club so s/he can get an audience, and, even worse, then puts on someone even more dire than them - so they'll sound good by comparison. and some do this on guest nights.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST,An ordinary bloke
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:58 AM

Pyrotechnic technical skills can detract fromthe song. THey don't always, but the up his own arse performer can drive many away.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Scrump
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM

"Which shows that amatuerish performance is not the exclusive right of folk clubs".
This may or may not be the case - I haven't read the correspondence, but folk clubs seem to be the only musical activity which promotes amatureism as a positive attribute and frowns on skill as frightning the horses (or the mediocre).

I haven't seen any evidence for this claim, i.e. that folk clubs "promote" amateurism as a "positive attribute" or frown upon skill.

On the contrary, skill in performance or on an instrument is always admired in my experience. I think to say clubs promote amateurism is incorrect - perhaps people are more tolerant of it, in the setting of a friendly community club where enjoying yourself is more important than professional standards of performance. The good clubs will be tolerant of people learning their craft, and encourage them to improve.

Perhaps there may be clubs that do the things you say, but I don't know any.

As for amateurish performance not being exclusive to folk, that's absolutely right. There are plenty of third rate pop and rock bands doing pub gigs.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 06 - 04:52 AM

you seem to have digressed from the above thread.
    Why not read the thread im referring to before commenting.
please do not condemn revival singers.I for one spend many hours practising [ and i am sure im not alone]. I also listen to a lot of the afore mentioned singers, Ihave the greatesat respect for my material as does loius killen, peter wood, vic gammon,all people who I know do floor spots at Blaydon,and are revival singers,.
YOU ARE ALSO CONDEMNING Bertlloyd ,Maccoll,carthy,Bellamy, Burland, Rose,Nic Jones. folk clubs do not in my opinion frown on skills or promote amateurism aS Apositive attribute.[ occasionally they are open to improvement]but most of them encourage people to improve.
they do try and encourage people to get better and have offered[ and still do]the chance for many professional performers to cut their teeth and learn stagecraft. e g the above mentioned performers. NIC JONES even ran a folk club, ,as do john adams and chris coe[ryburn ].Danny mcleod.Matt armour,Ronangel[ex teeside fettlerand author of chemical workers song]

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 07:44 PM

Cap'n
Wee Little Drummer (and Guest),
Our traditional singers were mainly elderly when they were recorded, but even so, singers like Sam Larner, Charlie Wills and Phil Tanner managed to inject more life, energy and understanding into their songs than most of the singers half their age it has been my dubious pleasure to hear around many of the clubs I've been to.
If you have any feeling for the songs you learn to take the best from our older singer; they had a great deal to offer despite the problems of old age. There are plenty of traditional singers on record who could sing your avarage revival singer into the ground - Walter Pardon, The Stewarts, Jeannie Robertson, Ned Adams from the UK.
And when you get to Ireland, Joe Heaney, the McDonaghs of Feenish Island, Mary Anne Carolan, Tom Lenihan........... the list is endless. Nowadays the bulk of Irish traditional singers are from the Irish speaking areas and if we can't learn from these, and younger singers like Roisín Al Saffdy we may as well give up and take up macramé.
Cap'n wrote:
"Which shows that amatuerish performance is not the exclusive right of folk clubs".
This may or may not be the case - I haven't read the correspondence, but folk clubs seem to be the only musical activity which promotes amatureism as a positive attribute and frowns on skill as frightning the horses (or the mediocre).
I wonder what it is that when you mention 'practice' and 'improvement' to a revival singer, out comes the crucifix and garlic! I can only assume it is either fear of failure or contempt for the material they are singing - or both.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:28 PM

"anyone cares to go to the thread MY LETTER TO THE EDITOR, particuarly Countess richard and Gervase, they will read about amateurish performances of classical musicians,that occurred in concert situation"

BS!!!!   If you really read that note you would find that it is not an amateur performance the letter writter is describing, but rather a concertgoer with rather unique expectations.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:24 PM

yes hughie is very good.
    if anyone cares to go to the thread MY LETTER TO THE EDITOR, particuarly Countess richard and Gervase, they will read about amateurish performances of classical musicians,that occurred in concert situation.Which shows that amatuerish performance is not the exclusive right of folk clubs.
in fact in my experience folk clubs are not this amateurish,generally the m c will put a strong singer on after a weak one [part of running the evening well],and why its important that folk clubs are well run. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 04:11 PM

I am not ashamed to admit the Spinners were my main early influence.

I still see Hughie Jones around from time to time - and he's not lost his enthusiasm and fire in any way at all!

We had him as a guest at the Open Door Folk Club about nine months back. We only have a small room, so we can fit around 20-ish in. Hughie gave the same standard of performance that he would have given had it been the Liverpool Phil - with the advantage of a more intimate atmosphere.

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:38 PM

[its about to die],that is your opinion gervase,not mine.
   to guest 28 nov 1251pm,that is the whole point, they are not prepared to give martin carthy a decent hearing, I have to also disagree with you about not coming back ever. I know many peole who saw the spinners in concert and then went on to their club in liverpool and to other liverpool clubs,.
in fact the performer Paul Sirman not only got interested in the music at a spinners concert, but went on to be a paid guest at many folk clubs and festivals,.
my partner Cathy cook, first got interested through fairport Convention, and accidentally discovered chippenham and laycock festival,and later went on to help run Dingles folk club,she was not put off by folk clubs,neither was Paul Sirman,or many others, myself included .

Subject: RE: why well run folk clubs are important
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Nov 06 - 12:32 PM

It's difficult treading the line between being patronising and being dismissive... either way, you'll put people off.

All you can do is to try to make people feel welcome, which is very difficult if you haven't attracted them there in the first place!

Yes, somebody will find fault no matter what you do...