BS: Posting with Civility

Subject: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:11 AM

One tradition I grew up with is to clean house before New Year's Day. According to this tradition, the new year should dawn without any dirty dishes in the sink, dirty laundry in the clothes hamper, or dirt swept under the rug.

In the spirit of that tradition, I've been engaging both physical and mental housekeeping. With regards to the mental housekeeping, I've been thinking about where I am in this point of my life, what goals I have set & why, and what I need to do to meet these goals if they are still valid for me in this place and time.

Since I spend quite a bit of time at Mudcat, I've also been thinking about this forum, why I am here, what I like and what I dislike about this online community.

I lurk and post on Mudcat. But I only lurk on the political forum DailyKos. That is one of my "go to" sites for political opinions & information. However, it's interesting to me how often DailyKos's bloggers struggle with the same or similar issues as some Mudcat members and guests do as to the nature of their [our] community and the standards people should use when posting on that [this] forum.

Reading this diary this morning, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/12/31/0653/4473 "What Happened to the Dkos Community?" by Big Tent Democrat; Sat Dec 30, 2006; it struck me that many of the comments posted there were applicable to Mudcat Discussion Forum. I also thought that a number of these comments might be of interest to some of Mudcat's members and guests.

Having had dial-up Internet access for quite some time, I recall how difficult and time consuming it was for me to visit hyperlinked sites. And thus, in the spirit of New Years airing out the room/meta analysis [if I'm using the definition of meta correctly to refer to thinking about what is and why & how it is], in my next couple of posts, I'd like to share a collage of comments from that particular diary and not just post the hyperlink to that diary.

I share these comments in hopes that they might strike some chord among Mudcat members and guests which will hopefully cause us to more strongly reaffirm the importance of civility in our conversations with each other.

Be my "guests", if you care to comment on my comments and/or those comments that I am sharing from that blog-a blog whose political nature is definitely not the point I want to make in this particular thread.

Happy New Year!

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:18 AM

Posting with Civility-A DailyKos Selected Comment Collage #1

"Something has been fishy around here over the pasy month or so, and I couldn't figure it out. Sure we've had our piefights, but the character attacks are new.
....
I chose to give no reply. I won't give viability to attacks by continuing them"...
by nhcollegedem on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"What bothers me is why people who should know better would let things like you pointed out bother them.

It's not just on DKos. You participate in any forum, you experct that there will be all shades of characters in there. It's par for the course. Not everyone will be decent.

Same thing goes even in real life. I listen to eff-laden conversation in corporate settings all the time, so it's easier to read discourteous, anonymous online "conversation" with equanimity.

So, why let it bother you?

Compulsively Combative"
by akogun on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"But isn't there a point where repeating your opinion (however well informed you may think it is) becomes counterproductive. It is not a cop out to say we agree to disagree and move on. The only thing accomplished by banging home the same thing repeatedly to people who disagree with you is a shitstorm of negative feelings which devolve into the need for this diary."
by jah4168 on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"The problem is that there's no real penalty for attacking the person rather than the problem.

I've recommended adding a way to filter out commentors that you don't like, which would at least allow people to tune out the worst offenders. If they couldn't be certain that their personal attacks were even being seen by the person they aimed them at, then it would remove some of the incentive to get personal".
by Liberal Thinking on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"People are people, and get emotionally attached to things that don't warrant taht. We all do it, and that emotion clouds our reason. I see this brought up in one way or another, but one thing is consistant, the finger of implication of disrespect is always pointed at those who are on the other side of the issue from the accuser. I'll take it seriously when I see somebody point the finger at someone that agrees with them".
by ActivistGuy on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"The ability to persuade through communication is an art form. It requires the ability to listen, hear, and respond in such a way that each person understands that his/her thoughts and ideas are respected and heard, not used solely to expose any weakness, no matter how minor, along with the accompanying insult or putdown.

As we speed to the 2008 nomination, intolerance is likely to become worse. I foresee that it may spiral out of control. If so, Dkos will become a place that's useless to those who wish to learn about current issues and engage in discussions.

This is not about being oversensitive in the face of criticism. It's about who we are, as exemplified by our words and actions".
by citizen53 on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"You had better add civility to standards and facts if you want to avoid continued degradation of the level of discusion on this board.

Questioning peoples integrity without supporting evidence is out of line but so is calling them an "idiot" in response to a post with which you disagree."
by Sam I Am on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"I was taken aback the other day...when someone said that the logic of Godel only applies to mathematics. I believe it to be symptomatic of something deeply wrong here: disrespect for intellectual discussion and consensus building in favor of dogmatic hardliners"
by rserven on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"I'm shocked! Or I would be if I had a clue about the subject"
by Big Tent Democrat

**

"I think there's a LOT of middle ground between civility and being a smarmy kumbaya love fest. Politeness is the lubricant for the engine of discussion and disagreement.
by lizah on Sun Dec 31, 2006

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:22 AM

Happy New Year Azizi.
I have tried to follow McGrath of Harlow's principle of sending posts, which address the issues rather than just confront personalities. There has always been a danger here of posting a hasty comment, which hurts someone else's feelings unnecessarily. I like to think that even as I am posting my views, I am also checking my reasoning by laying it open to question. Thanks to all those Mudcatters who reply politely and with generosity of spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:31 AM

Posting with Civility-A DailyKos Selected Comment Collage #2

"What happened?
I don't know I wasn't here before: was it truly a garden of Eden?...

When an atmosphere of incivility persists (as in Washington politics, as in many of the impeachment discussions here), is it really that surprising that non-fact based charges are hurled and cheap, sarcastic putdowns become the order of the day? Civility once lost is hard to regain but if it is regained, it is a sure sign that the mutual respect that your diary calls for is really here.
by EdSF on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"emotional entrenchment -
Someone accused me of something.

I asked for proof.

They couldn't provide proof.

They refused to withdraw the accusation.

They still haven't.

They're emotions and ego won't let them.

Nobody called them on it, at least no one they 'respected enough' to listen to.

Since this was someone who prides thenselves on upholding community standards, it discredits the whole notion of community standards. In fact it establishes a double standard.

If the oldtimers and their allies want a standard upheld they have to uphold it themselves, as examples. They also have to TEACH the standards, not yell them at people.

Has anyone here ever had their mind changed by someone who was screaming in their face and calling them names?

What it comes down to is that if the 30,000 want dkos to be a certain way they have to figure out how to make it that way.

That is vey tough to do when 40,000 people join in the 6 months leading up to an election.....when as is discussed above, standards are different.

But really, it's on the noobs to conform to the standards, but its up to the old timers to define, adhere to, and EFFECTIVELY enforce those standards.
by buhdydharma on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"I am offended by ANY incivility.
I beleive it's possible to engage in vigorous debates and maintain a modicum of respect.

Offense isn't the issue. I know you are well aware that people express themselves differently in cyberspace (eww, that word) than in the real world. They take liberties and go to extremes. Most would never even contemplate saying such things to another person's face. And most of us actually agree with each other on many more issues than we disagree, making these fueds truly ridiculous.

But this diary suggests that you are taking these attacks to heart much more than I ever thought you would, and much more than they deserve to be. I'm sure you could have (and probably did) respond in the thread where it occurred. That's enough. This diary is an escalation that seems out of proportion to me.

Do the people that allegedly assassinated your character really have that much control and influence on you?

Debates will rage here. But that sense of detachment you feel online - It's real! We are not bound to these avatars. I just think you're making too much of this when you imply that the community is coming apart.

The community is evolving, and always will be. The old generation will fear the values of the new, just like in the real world. But they are not frightening, they are just new. Roll with it or turn in to the old man that yells at the kids to get off of his lawn".
KingOneEye on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"I hope it does not cause you too much distress when people you are never likely to meet, and will have no effect on your life, disparage your character.

I mean that. I hope it didn't sound flip".
by KingOneEye

**

"I certainly don't view this as some random blog with strangers yelling at each other.

The people on here are REAL, their concerns and views are VALID. I trust the analysis of many here, and I'm proud to have met some good friends on here...

The problem is exactly what you express. If people view this as a place to come and shout at each other, than we've lost the community".
by nhcollegedem on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"I try to remember to consider whether I would have the stones to say to someone's face what I say in comments.

Sometimes I forget to do that, and regret it later. But usually I know that if I run into someone at, say, YearlyKos I can look them in the eye with a clear conscience.

There are people behind these UIDs. I love this place, and feel I have much, much more in common with everyone that hangs out here, than not.

Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. --Eric Hoffer"
by Sharoney on Sat Dec 30, 2006

****

"in response to the question [where are veteran members?]
banned or run off or burnt out, some of them many of us check in, but less often, having grown tired of fighting the same sort of battles. at any rate, i don't see any of this rancour as particularly new. just a product of one site with many very different and often mutually exclusive visions of what we ought to be doing here, without any way of finding a working consensus, and with a group culture built up over several years that delights in shouting down dissenting voices and seeing trolls behind every curtain.

while a lot of truly worthwhile talking goes on here, trust exists only in pockets, between those people who have put the time in to build it up despite strong disagreements at times. there really is no other way to accomplish it, from what i can tell, online and off-, and any site with a constant influx of new people is going to have difficulty establishing that trust anew, day in and day out.

it's not impossible, but it is hard, especially with faceless sparring partners and times as bleak as these. every site struggles with it, just as every community does. eugene is right, though; the core problem is fear and lack of trust".
by wu ming on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"Speaking as a newbie, this place can only be "better" than it once was, just different. How that difference is managed to the continue the success here seems to me to be the question at hand.
by Terra Mystica on Sun Dec 31, 2006

**

"...The solution isn't for us to divide ourselves up into little siloed sub-communities, composed of people who agree with one another. The solution is for us to argue and criticize in a constructive way, because we realize that our world views, while different on many particulars, are fundamentally similar.
by StupidAsshole on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"Some times I think people take this Meta stuff a bit too far, but you are 100% right. Holding certain opinions does not make you a bad person. In fact, the reason I spend so much time here is to hear things from many unique perspectives. I understand that these are really trying times overall. The war, corruption, New Orleans, and so on all are truly terrible. That tends to make people overstate what they have to say, and be overly sensitive to differing opinions. We all get that.

We just need to remember that this site is what inflames the passions of so many of us. So, we need to keep the name calling and personal attacks for somewhere other then Kos. Nothing will destroy this thing faster then it devolving into a "you suck" chamber.

Please don't make this personal...THANKS!"
by jah4168 on Sat Dec 30, 2006

**

"We are most likely to have more similarities
of opinion than core differences.......many of us, that is.

Many here, myself included, sometimes post based on reaction rather than reason. That seems fairly typical.
….
I wish all posters a very Happy New Year, and hope we can maintain enough civility in the New Year to occasionally just agree to disagree"

[sorry somehow I didn't capture this blogger's name and as there are now almost 500 post in that diary, I can't find that particular post and yet I very much agree with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:24 PM

Thank you Azizi. Happy New Year.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Cruiser
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:32 PM

Bugger Off Mate Azizi!

Just kidding.

"According to this tradition, the new year should dawn without any dirty dishes in the sink, dirty laundry in the clothes hamper, or dirt swept under the rug."

There was never a New Year in my house then.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:18 PM

Azizi, that tradition holds in my house too. As a matter of fact, right at this moment I have throw rugs in the dryer, sheets and slipcovers in the washer and my dog's bath stuff waiting by the tub. The last washer load will deal with my dogbath-wet clothes and whatever else remains.

I don't know where I got the tradition- we didn't do it in my childhood home. Maybe it is what Cruiser implies- it is one way to ensure that the whole house gets cleaned at least once a year!

I have read DailyKos on occasion, mostly in response to something you have written before. It's interesting but not surprising that they too sometimes have the same discussions the Mudcat has. Thanks for posting it.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:22 PM

It's people, not Mudcat!!

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 02:17 PM

the truth is, this 'internet/WWW' thing is not that old....and folks have discovered it is MUCH easier to say anti-social stuff from the relative safety of their computers than it would be facing their opponents face-to-face. We even get people saying "this isn't 'real'...these are just words on a screen".....sadly, it IS real, and we need to strive for the civility Azizi suggests in our comments.

The New Year IS a traditional time for attempting to change things for the better, but whether it can be made to apply to VT as well as RT remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 02:18 PM

Hi all!

Here's some info about the custom of having a clean house for the New Years:

"New Year (shogatsu or oshogatsu) is the most important holiday in Japan. Most businesses shut down from January 1 to January 3, and families typically gather to spend the days together.

Years are traditionally viewed as completely separate, with each new year providing a fresh start. Consequently, all duties are supposed to be completed by the end of the year, while bonenkai parties ("year forgetting parties") are held with the purpose of leaving the old year's worries and troubles behind.

Homes and entrance gates are decorated with ornaments made of pine, bamboo and plum trees, and clothes and houses are cleaned."

Japanese New Year


**

"In China, New Year's Eve is a time for...

. all family members to get together to chat
. us to have some special food which we don't have daily
. children to wear brand new clothes
. children to gather lucky money from adults
traveling
. hanging around the flower shows
. shopping for cleaning one's house, especially for messy people."

New Year Customs Worldwide

-snip-

I'm not sure if that last line is a typo or not. Did that contributor mean that on New Years Eve especially messy people would shop for cleaning products, or that especially messy people would use those cleaning products to make their homes less messy?

Either way, that doesn't refer to me 'cause I'm not "especially" messy.

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 02:32 PM

Azizi-

I'll try resetting my BS response meter over New Year's. There are times when it has a hair trigger, but a little hair of the dog might just settle it down.

Best wishes to you!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:35 PM

Is it any reason that ROBERT'S RULES OF ORDER in some version are used around the world in face to face meetings? It's codified civility for debate. And it's not perfect. Fights break out in even the most dignified settings or maybe I should say especially in what should be the most dignified settings. But it is the road to civility.

The first university in the Renaissance, I believe was in Paris. Ideals and old standards of understanding clashed with the new. There were hot debates, fights, duels but eventually it was found that civilty and maybe even a little hypocracy furthered the cause of understanding as much as the rules of logic.

As a side bar, I think it is terrible for anyone side to try to dominate in the school setting for anything above rote learning. How can there be understanding if only one point of view is heard. Political Correctness leads us to a Dark Age, not enlightenment. Let the Ideas stand on their own merit. Learn LOGIC. Learn how to think, not what to think. The "what" will come of its own accord.

The know-nothings who think they can sell an idea with filthy language and faulty logic will fall by the wayside if everyone points out their lack of substance.

Yes, be civil, be polite, apologize when you need to (it won't kill you). If an impasse is reached, admit it and move on to other things. To thine own self, be true. Admit your biases and know where you are coming from. That alone will clear a lot of the underbrush out of the way for a meaningful discourse and exchange of ideas.

Thanks for an excellent thread Azizi. It's a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: mack/misophist
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:55 PM

Civility. Some people just don't have it in them. The important thing is to never let them know when they're right. Even assholes can be right, once in a while. I once knew a fellow who could shut up the most egregious fool by looking down his nose at him, smirking, and stalking off. Try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:59 PM

Ah, Mack, you've mastered rational debate!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:10 PM

Only two things leapt out at me from those lists that seem particularly relevant to this forum, as opposed to others I'm familiar with--and it is no coincidence both Mudcat and Daily Kos have a lot of political discussions that lead to way off behavior.

This:

"The problem is that there's no real penalty for attacking the person rather than the problem."

And the fact that Azizi included repeated references to the "old timers and their followers" needing to set the standards, and lead by example (they really don't here--they've been a large part of the problem, especially the clones).

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Amos
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:02 PM

One of the reasons the old timers here ARE old timers is they have consistently spoken frankly but tended to err on the side of civility, with the exception of Spaw whose incivility is so slapstick as to qualify as something else altogether.

"Guest" on the other had has been an undying font of snidery and underhanded, generalized negative nabobbery, as I recall.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST,In Awe!
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:29 PM

Posting with civility!

Oh Please, this reads like a 'Ms. Manners Guide to the Internet'
What a crock. Telling people how they should behave indeed. I cannot think of anything more arrogant than this Thread topic.
What is the next lecture thread about. Could it be 'Knowing when not to post!'
Maybe that topic should have been covered before this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:53 PM

Another anonymous "GUEST" logs in and takes a few cheap shots. No name, no accountability. Taking posters to task for craving civility. How Droll.

I'm not the first to suggest that GUESTs could stand to inhabit a different place than regular members. (The last one can go in the trash bin).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 04:17 AM

Hey, I LOVE Miss Manners. Good manner make good sense. One does not have to think very long or hard to see what life would be like without them. It's why we call this civilization. Its worth protecting and in the personal contact, it holds down on violence and blood shed. That we'd all practice good manners.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: JennyO
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:04 AM

I once knew a fellow who could shut up the most egregious fool by looking down his nose at him, smirking, and stalking off.

Hmm. That might be a little hard to do on the internet. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: terrier
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:28 AM

Guest, in awe

******What is the next lecture thread about. Could it be 'Knowing when not to post!'
Maybe that topic should have been covered before this one!*****

It has, recently, and a lot of people saw fit to join in with some good honest advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:49 AM

Well I agree with Guest a little bit, it's a bit condescending to sit in judgement from a distance. What a lot of posters tend to ignore or not even know exists, is the difference in national senses of humour. I've seen people get upset at remarks on here that are everyday currency in some circles. As has been said on other threads, stop, stand back, and think whether the post actually means what you think it does, before you jump in with both feet and make an arse of yourself, or start an argument.
The NI threads are a prime example of this 'different cultural outlook' there are those who lived amongst it in NI, there are those who lived with it, on the UK mainland, there are those to whom it is a romantic historic familial, but distant ideal, and never the three shall see eye to eye.
Instead of proscribing how people should post, try looking at things from their point of view, that might help.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:56 AM

Before judging a man, walk a mile in his shoes.









Then if you still want to slag him off, you're a mile away and wearing his shoes!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:12 AM

well, I've been in Azizi's shoes - I started a thread called the need to win in the hope of getting people to rethink the need to rip into each other. While I tried to make that thread as diplomatic as possible, the only effect it had was to upset a couple catters very much.

after the dust died down, i saw that my thread was seen as being judgemental, and in effect it was because I was hoping to get people to step back from the heavy artillery in their debating.

it's pretty hard to understand where people are coming from and very easy to misinterpret people of different backgrounds. The big one for me is the dry aussie sense of humour - dry comments by aussies sometimes get taken very literally by US catters.

re using the wisdom of "long term catters - I take old timers, whether they're catters or from any other community - with a grain of salt. People can be around for a very long time, and while long term catters can be very insightful so can newer ones.

I hope your thread is more effective than mine was, Azizi, good luck.

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:21 AM

Adolescent behaviour...uncivil tongue....nastiness....controversy... argumentativeness....obstinacy....antisocial behaviour....hate.... anger....destructiveness....belittling words....condecension........
All traits of human nature and for some, everyday life
Just a few of the things seen here on the cat too as well as some of the more enjoyable and positive things which we all come for( well maybe not all then)...much the same as seen in the world really eh?. Wherever we go in the world, whether physically or on the WWW...we will find it so just live with it folks. Accept it. Ignore it. Join it. Fight it. Jeer at it. love it. Hate it. I guess it aint going away anyway.
Have a great 2007 everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:31 AM

I have occasionally written sarcastic or rude posts. They are the ones, which I would least like to read again. I bear that in mind before I hit the submit button!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: autolycus
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:34 AM

Happy New Year everyone.

   Two other tactics I've found helpful.

   1. Ignore/don't respond to uncivil posts.

   2. Agree. One guest said I was a fool. I wrote that I agreed I was.

    it's a great way to shoot their fox.






    best wishes Azizi





      Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 09:15 AM

Never suffer fools gladly. In this forum you get the opportunity to jump up and down on their stupid heads. And there's not a damn thing they can do about it except to sling meaningless insults around - how liberating is that!!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST,The Angel of Sweetness
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 09:22 AM

Trouble is, the fools outnumber the wise here by a factor of 100 to 1. There's too much jumping to be done!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:52 AM

Since late 1998, I cannnot remember the number of threads we've had about this subject as well as a plethora of members only vs guests posting threads and a bunch of other netiquette discussions.

As Mudcat gains more and more members those types of discussions have become worse and more acrimonious. IMO, it's best to mind your own "litter box" and not let the others' get to you. Took me a while to figure that out, but it mostly works.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 12:23 PM

Since late 1998, I cannnot remember the number of threads we've had about this subject as well as a plethora of members only vs guests posting threads and a bunch of other netiquette discussions.

Yes and most of these threads have been closed (or deleted).

And in that time there has been no shortage of judgements, imposed closures, deletions and general attempts to control what posters wish to say.

As none of this well-intentioned imposition has made any difference -except to further divide us - perhaps it is now time to stop this and try another approach?

Possibly by finally accepting that it is only posters who have any control over what they post?

And accepting that when posters are set a better example of acceptable they may just follow it?

And if all efforts are designed to encourage discussion on all subjects - rather than on judging posters and inhibiting discussion on certain subjects - we may just see free and open discussion.

But I suspect that free and open discussion is really the last thing that some of our 'moderators' wish for our forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:18 PM

Au contraire, Sham. Free and open discussion is severely inhibited by the kind of generalized and accusatory nabobbery which some resort to when they cannot run two thoughts together clearly. Another strong chilling effector is endless redundancy. A third is vilification of individuals as a response to some topic on which one cannot say anything articulate per se, known otherwise as ad hominem illogics.

Have a wonderful and peaceful New Year, Roger.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Slag
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

Gee, thanks Liz! My name has become a byword!

How old is the internet? What a great place to encounter other cultures and learn more about the world in which we live. If you have an in-joke going and you suspect folks in Borneo or Whazzisistan may not get it, let us in on it. It's a public forum. Otherwise pm your intended audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: heric
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

It took me a lttle while before I learned to refrain from accusatory nabobbery (well, most of the time), but fwiw, this is how I try to do it: I firmly believe (though I know many people wouldn't agree) that the character of the person posting at the other end cannot be judged with any accuracy by the tenor or content of their posts. (I've proven myself correct, with the small handful of people I've met.) This works in both directions, too: Just because they "sound" good, sometimes or often, doesn't mean they are of superior character, either.

I think if you met most of the people who you think, from posts or writing, are of less impressive or less interesting merit (or even "pompous," "goddammed annoying" or "stupid"), you would almost always be surprised that you had been so presumptuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:02 PM

Guest The Angel of Sweetness. I would like to suggest your post is inaccurate and that the 'bad' side of mudcat posts is far outweighed by the good. Could you also suggest where you would rate yourself amongst the 100-1 odds? I find that most people on here are civil and although they may at times be contentious, they are entitled to their opinions and worthy of respect. It is the deliberate flamer or troll who usually appears in the guise of GUEST that is the main cause of problems...although there are some who are known to do those things by name!
A sweet and civil 2007 to everyone and here is hoping that some will perhaps tone down their verbal abuse...if not..I will just get on with it, treating whatever deserves contempt with contempt...without any nastiness or namecalling to contributors. We may not be able to control other peoples input but we sure can control our own!
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

Free and open discussion is one thing, but hammering a point home over and over and over and over again until the wood splits is something else - and I'm not aiming that comment at anyone in particular, as you'll find examples in most threads.

It's far better to make your point concisely and succinctly...!

Among my most prized possessions
are words that I have never spoken.
--Orson Card

The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.
--Somerset Maugham

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

Ooops! Where did my cookie go? 'Guest 02:12' was me, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Cruiser
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:24 PM

Parsimoniuously: No Censorship except for slandering!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Cruiser
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:27 PM

Parsimoniously!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM

Is a 'parsimonious' a cross between a parsnip and a harmonium?!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Cruiser
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:13 PM

Bernard, I had to look up what a harmonium is, but I do not think such a cross is possible...no hybrid vigor there. I think parsnips would be too inflexible to serve as bellows.

So much for my parsimony! That one word should mean one does not need to explain in length what it means.

No Bernard, parsimony is not the matrimony of parsnips; at least I do not think so.

Azizi: your efforts are laudable and it is obvious you are an intelligent woman. However, this forum is the "Wild West of the Internet" and the faster shooter wins. Best let Judge Roy Joe Bean and his clones do what they do best. So far, I have no complaints.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 03:42 PM

Well, clones get to edit their own posts and remove those they disagree with, so even if you did have a complaint, it would likely disappear.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

Clones have their work cut out deleting spam postings at the moment, without wasting their time on censorship.

A few threads which have got out of hand have been closed, and some have been deleted - I think we all really understand why.

Some of those responsible for bringing the nastiness into threads seem to be taking great delight in setting people against each other, and it's probably because they enjoy starting a fight, then sitting back and watching the results of their handiwork.

It's not the reason why most of us visit this forum.

At one time we were all friends around here...

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:06 PM

Believe what you want. thread.cfm?threadid=97644&messages=11#1923521

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:24 PM

Hardly proof positive... it seems that Guest is putting 'spin' on things that are said... possibly for the reasons I mentioned.

Most of the spam postings are dodgy links - I've been reporting those that I've spotted, but a clone was already on top of it on each occasion.

Clearly whoever deleted the post referred to in that particular thread believed it to be spam, and maybe other spam was also present. As the link had been added again with a suitable comment, reinstating the original would have only served to confuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 05:52 PM

There is a lot of cliques on this Site, old pals who back one another whether they are right or wrong, I was once a member but got out when I seen the way they operated, noticed it on this Thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM

Agreed, Guest. I don't approve of cliques either. Weak people hide in them!

Sometimes, though, you can inadvertently appear that you are part of a clique simply by giving a friend who you believe in some well deserved support.

If I'm perceived to be guilty of that, sorry. It's not my style.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST,a clone
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 06:57 PM

" clones get to edit their own posts and remove those they disagree with, so even if you did have a complaint, it would likely disappear."

Bad information! Clones can edit their own posts- true. I sometimes indulge in correcting my own spelling, though I never change what I have said.. But clones CANNOT delete freely, because Joe & Jeff watch this and must approve all deletions! If anyone feels a deletion was unfair or accidental, ask Joe privately or in the help forum.

Take a look at the many complaints which do NOT disappear.

It is amazing that someone who won't even use a name can be such an expert on how things are done.

skinny clone

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:05 PM

Expert...

Ex = 'has been'

Spurt = 'drip under pressure'

;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST,a non clone
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 07:24 PM

So what happened to Clinton Hammond?