BS: Posting with Civility

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 11:49 AM

Wouldn't doing so demonstrate to folks here that this forum is truly striving to be a place where civility is a goal that moderators and other posters believe is important to this forum?

I believe so too.

But I not too sure from the example they set, that some of our moderators and their few favoured posters would share the view that civility is really all that important.

But I believe this to be a mistake - but not one that it is too late to correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:34 AM

Closed posts and deleted threads 3

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:31 AM

Azizi - At least your contributions to this thread remain as posted.

To my knowledge - at least 5 posts (since this thread was refreshed in February) have been 'silently deleted' from it.

Apart from all the other issues arising from this, on a purely practical level, this has resulted in much needless confusion on our forum, as none of these deletions were recorded as taking place.

Even if it were just to avoid this confusion - it would surely be a simple matter to ensure that all such imposed actions are recorded? And if recording this in editing comments is thought to be too much effort (by those who usually seem eager for the slightest excuse to insert them into existing posts in threads) - perhaps such actions could cease?

It would be welcome if just some of the effort that currently goes into preventing discussion were to be devoted to encouraging both this and in encouraging new contributors to feel this was a place where they could safely express their views.

But perhaps this is not thought to be the object anymore?

But again on a practical level - it should be remembered that those who choose to exert power without responsibilty have little credibilty when demanding that others act responsibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:53 AM

Correction:

And in another Permathread I've had my comments selectively deleted in a manner that I consider results in an inaccurate conclusion.

I should mention that in that case I wrote a post to that Permathread asking that all my comments on that topic be removed if some of them were removed. However, that post was also deleted. At that point I wrote the Permathread editor a pm indicating that I would no longer post to that Permathread.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 08:24 AM

In my 05 Jan 07 - 07:48 AM post to this thread I wrote

"I'm sharing these opinions not to cause trouble but to try to help this community address what I consider to be real & potential areas of weakness.

Also, for the record, I continue to be an active member of this online community because my experiences here have largely been positive and because I enjoy learning, sharing, and just coolin out with many folks here.

I've started this "meta" thread and at least one other meta Mudcat thread, because I believe that such threads are helpful.

If as a result of this thread, Mudcat moves closer to being a community that treats each member and guest more civilly and whose governing administration recognizes & provides consistent consequences to those persons who do not treat members and guests civilly, than-to paraphrase a religious song-my starting this thread was not in vain."

On 05 Jan 07 - 06:36 PM I also wrote "In my opinion, whether I and others here are liked or disliked shouldn't be the issue.

What I'm concerned about is the potential and/or real acts of incivility and the real & potential misuse of power without consistent consequences."

Since I wrote these comments, for the most part I have limited my comments to above the line threads and to Permathreads. In one Permathread I've had a post containing a comment & a question ignored by the Permathread editor. And in another Permathread I've had my comments selectively deleted in a manner that I consider results in an accurate conclusion. In both instances, I shrugged my shoulders and decided not to post to that particular Permathread again.

Because I don't want to leave this forum, it's not an option for me to totally ignore what on the public forum appears to me to be acts of incivility and/or inappropriate selective deletions, including any post deletions that are made in error.

Let's say that a member of guest calls to the attention of moderators that he or she feels that his or her post was selectively deleted in error-that the moderator made a mistake in deleting a post that is not inflammatory, racist, targeting a specific member, or otherwise offensive. Let's also say that, in hind sight, that moderator or other moderators, or the head moderator, Joe Offer, agrees that this post was deleting in error. Wouldn't it be an easy act of civility for a moderator to put the comment back and say "sorry"?

Wouldn't doing so demonstrate to folks here that this forum is truly striving to be a place where civility is a goal that moderators and other posters believe is important to this forum?

I believe so.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 05:53 AM

"anonymous posting" can mean a number of things:

That list seems a little selective.

Is it not also anonymous posting when one of our anonymous 'moderators' post?

Or when they 'silently delete' the post of a poster who is not anonymous and who unlike those who would feel themselves qualified to impose their anonymous judgement - is brave enough to stand by their actions on our forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM

about membership and cookies:

IF you are not worried about cookies from Mudcat, but often or usually clear your browser of surfing history when exiting, PLEASE note that with today's 3 major browsers, it is perfectly possible to set preferences so that YOU control precisely which cookies are deleted and which are retained and NOT deleted.
   There is no reason to 'forget' to reset cookies or the go thru the process of going to the log-in page every time you sign on!

In Opera 9, which I use 'most' of the time, it is possible to control every detail of privacy and security, including handling of cookies by goin to 'tools'-> 'preferences'-> 'advanced'-> 'cookies'...and editing how you want them done....you can review all the cookies which might be there, manually delete any you don't like...etc.

Firefox browser has similar capabilities....and even old IE has controls...If someone has been frustrated with this and is not sure how to do it, I'd be glad to post detailed instructions...and I'm sure others would also.

A cookie from Mudcat is basically for YOUR convenience...it is not a 'tracking' cookie, nor does it identify you.....so if you want, or are willing, to get out of the 'guest' routine, it is not hard to do.

(for various reasons, I use 3-4 browsers on a fairly regular basis, and have 2-3 others for occasional special needs, such as testing our new web site)

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:24 AM

I'd be curious to know how many have turned anonymous (especially former member types) -- not because there was outright animosity expressed toward them at one time, but rather, because they inferred rejection in a lack of response to their posts. I bet it's most.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

GUESTs, even nameless ones, are usually very polite and nice in the music section. Over there, they appear once in a thread to ask a question or to give a response, even a second time to say thank you or to give a bit more information than in the first post. I have never considered them to be a problem.

But in discussions (BS or musically related) I prefer to read a consistent (real name or not) handle. Whether this person has member status or not I don't care. For some handles, I even don't remember whether they come with the GUEST prefix or not.

It helps to read the meaning of a post. Take for instance Greg F. He sometimes uses the language of a redneck halfwit. Knowing him (as far as 'knowing' goes on a website), I can read the real meaning (mocking about such opinions) behind his words.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

At many web sites, the "anonymous" designation is stated when no name is presented by the poster or commenter, or when an "anonymous" circle or square is selected. But to the visiting public, and to members who do not know the poster by a "real" name, a poster to Mudcat who uses an authored name is functionally anonymous for any purpose other than forum discussion, for who the poster is remains unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

Well, at the time that...'discussion' was going on I did a search on Yahoo, & there are certainly sites that give, with statistics, Ireland as the 3rd most 'booming' economy. Hovever other sites disagreed, placing it somewhat lower.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:23 AM

True Keith, very true, your post gave me a laugh though, but I do Captain Ginger is one of the boys who bailed out of the previous NI threads. I believe that he is the one who believes that Ireland is the third richest country in the world and that I live in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:11 AM

T,
None of that crowd were ever so "affectionate" in their posts.
Butch to a man (and possibly woman).

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

Rehabilitation?
Wash your mouth out Terry, my love. It's buying drugs on the benefits I can wring out of the taxpayer that keeps me going. That and the cheap cider and the 50p's I nick from the neighbours' leccy meters!
Now be off about your business, you little tinker, before I set my pit bull on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 09:07 AM

"anonymous posting" can mean a number of things:

1) a non-member posting without outing in any name, so they bcome through as GUEST

2) a member logging out and coming in as a GUEST without any name

3) a member logging out and coming in with a different name from the one thet normally used

4) a member logged in, and using a pseudonym which means they are not identifiable with somone in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 08:56 AM

That's right Captain, you also shared your little government subsidised 20ft container complete with computers, bought to keep you off the streets as part of the drug rehabilitation programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 03:25 AM

Gulp - it's getting all confessional here.
Well, I have appeared in other guises before I became the upright, downright decent chap that you see before you now. GUESTS:The Sugarplum Fairy, the Chocolate Soldier, the Nutcracker and even Tchaikovsky himself - in their questioning of Able Seaman Terry the Terrier - may, er, have shared more than an IP address with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Slag
Date: 10 Jan 07 - 03:14 AM

I dusted my cookie one time and entered a comment as "GUEST: alien from area 51" because I wanted to make an observation as coming from another point of view. I kept my own inimatable style and vocabulary and hoped that everyone would understand that it was I, slag, doing the posting. Like spitting in the ocean. I don't need to try THAT again!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 05:18 PM

I do exactly what jacqui said. I have a yahoo email that I set up years ago and only use in situations where an email is required and I don't wish to give out my home email. It is amazingly simple to get one.

Before joining I posted as GUEST, KB almost exlusively. I forgot a few times and used other names a couple of times just to be goofy. I wanted a consistent moniker because I thought it made it easier to carry on a conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Rowan
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 04:45 PM

I was once guilty of another reason for posting without also listing my name; it was before I had become a member and was still posting as "GUEST Rowan". Coincidentally it was to a thread on which Azzizi had been making excellent contributions but someone made a comment about missed commas. Opportunity beckoned and I was too quick for my own good.

Ah, well.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 02:09 PM

I'll say it again: if you have been posting anonymously, it is time for you to choose a user name. Registration is not required - but anonymous posting (while possible) is not permitted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:42 PM

what McGrath said...

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

I can quite understand people choosing not to become members, for variosun reasons.

What puzzles me is a refusal to put a name along with GUEST to make it possible to carry on a conversation. It always seems to be plain bad manners - I suppose laziness is better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

Problem is, Guest covers a multitude of anonymous sins. Too many Guests seem to take the opportunity to cause trouble here and then all can get tarred with the same brush.

On the question of giving out your email address I am registered here on a Hotmail address, which is free and could be used solely for this type of use. Yahoo also do a free addie.

In the roughly four years I have been here that address has not been abused as a result of my using it to become a member.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 01:25 PM

How about the fact that I really don't want to give out my e-mail address? You can't becom a member without doing that. That's a good enough reason for me to be called guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

Thanks JTT - you've given me the first glimmer of understanding as to why some people might come in without names, but without having malevolent intentions. Mere laziness.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 06:14 AM

Small technical suggestion: most online forums have a posting form where you either have to or have the option to enter your userid and password before posting.

On Mudcat, it's a little kludgy to go and enter your username and password, then come back and post, and if you clear your cookies regularly, you have to keep remembering how to do it.

Don't all rush to attack me, now - I'm just wondering if having the form open at the bottom of a line of posts, as it is here, makes it too easy for lazy people like myself to avoid signing in.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jan 07 - 04:53 AM

Do private businesses in your respective countries have a similar caveat?

They do but most who wish to stay in business accept that they will not remain in business very long if they allow their employees to feel they could call the customers names and throw pots and pans at them if the employees felt it became too hot for them in the kitchen.

Or if they were seen to permit a few favoured customers to swear at and abuse their fellow customers.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:53 AM

I have often wondered about that myself Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 03:18 AM

Well maybe "club" was a poor choice of words on my part. Give me a better term. There is "membership", not citizenship. None were born here that I know of and no passport needed. It's a "Cafe'" but it's "bring your own coffee!" You tell me.

Max envisions it; builds it; finances it and GUEST (un-named ) is going to tell him how to run it. Believe it or not, I understand that way of thinking but that's another thread and a volatile one at that. It has to do with borders and such! Ouch!

Some enterprizes DO take on a life of their own but they are always corporate enterprizes, oligopolies, democracies and such. And while Max apparently ascribes to democratic principles and is a patient and broadminded person, private ownership prevails. It's a monarchy that resembles a democracy. Or, it's a cafe' in which the owner reserves the right to refuse service to anyone. The last is a phrase known to most Americans. How about you folks from other countries? Do private businesses in your respective countries have a similar caveat?

Subject: ADD: It's On (Don Henderson)
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

Good try Azzizi! For a while there, even the recognised characters were uncommonly civil. Should be more of it!

And I think McGrath is closer to the mark than he realised, even though he had the song in mind rather than the near chaos of the book.

But he did remind me of Don Henderson's song "It's on!" which my faulty memory has as follows;.

A sad story you'll here if you listen to me
about two men who could never agree.
What one called white
the other called black;
they'd argue a while, then step out the back

Cho.
And it's on!
All reason and logic are gone!
Winning a fight won't prove that you're right.
It's sad but it's true,
and it's on!

They'd been fighting so long that could neither recall
what in the first place had had started it all
But they'd still keep on fighting
both day in and day out;
they were fighting to see what they were fighting about!
Cho.

Now just you imagine if lessons in schools
came to be taught us by Queensbury's rules.
It could easily be argued
that the square root of four
was 15 less 3, plus a smack in the jaw!
Cho.

And while governments think that it makes better sense
to save on education and spend on defence
it could easily be argued
that on the same grounds
elections should be the best of ten rounds!
Cho.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 10:25 PM

I wonder why suspicions are always more credible than facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 09:39 PM

I dunno - starts off as a very timely post encouraging us all to treat it other with respect, and 200 posts on and there's a battle still raging. Mostly shadow boxing with some talkative invisibility/nonentity/man upon the stair who wasn't there.

It seems we can work up a fight out of anything. Maybe it goes with the music:

Then Maggie O'Connor took up the job
"O Biddy," says she, "You're wrong, I'm sure"
Biddy she gave her a belt in the gob
And left her sprawlin' on the floor.
Civil War did soon engage
'Twas woman to woman and man to man,
Shillelagh law was all the rage
And a row and a ruction soon began.

Then Mickey Maloney ducked his head
When a noggin of whiskey flew at him,
It missed, and falling on the bed
The liquor scattered over Tim!
The corpse revives! See how he raises!
Timothy rising from the bed,
Says,"Whirl your whiskey around like blazes
Thanum an Dhul! Do you think I'm dead?"

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:19 PM

Well Amos, you could start by living in the same state as Joe. Oh, come to think of it, you do.Maybe you are in the clique and you don't even know it?

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 05:39 PM

Sins:

Oh, thanks for the clarification. How does one get into the private one?

:D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

200! My first!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 04:53 PM

No, Amos not the F**king Club, the Royalty Club. The F**king Club is private.

So, by virtue of the fact that I have met Joe Offer and Max I am royalty. WOW Me and Princess Diana! Who'd a guessed?

If you are on the outside looking in, ask why. No one is keeping you out.

The Princess SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM

Strange - I have never felt any different when using the 'Cat, even when I lived in the UK. At that time I had 'friends' on the site in the UK, Australia and the USA. I was not part of any clique than either, just a normal Mudcatter who used most of her own name on the 'Cat and set up both profile and photo.

Matbe the difference is that I have never felt the need to post as Guest - apart from on the SS threads - as anything that I want to say I will say under my own name.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 04:04 PM

Remember when we were kids, and there was always one who pouted and complained that "They won't play with me". Usually they were right. Why? Because that outsider got more mileage out of being a victim than being social and joining the group.
Clique = rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

What effing club?

Allow me to offer the thought that iun postulating a club, as distinct from individuals communicating at individual moments of time, you are becoming paranoid and superstitious.

I showed up on this site with no prior knowledge of anyone here. I MADE friends by communicating. You can, too. I contributed what I could to music threads. You can, too. I contributed stuff as cheerfully and creatively as I could, took on a couple of projects to help the 'Cat. You could do those things, as well...

What I did NOT do was cavil and whine and play the victim about others mistreating me. When others mistreated me, I made a decision wither to blast them (usually the wrong decision) or to ignore them (usually the right decision). Because they were usually not battles worth fighting. But it took me some time to learn tht lesson, and Old Guy and Martin Gibson have the scars to prove it.

Point is, I made friendships one at a time by communicating about topics of common interest.

You have chosen some other back-alley way of conducting yourself. But don't give me this "power clique" crap. I have only the terrible power of words at my disposal, and you do too.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:13 PM

I didn't realise that Azizi had been picked on. I do get a bit wary (or maybe I mean weary) of having to be so politically correct when he/she is around, but I've never seen anything out of order from him/her. What did I miss?

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

Amen to that, Ivor. And in this instance, I'm guilty as charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: autolycus
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM

The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.






       Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

It has to do with the Mudcat members who have physical proximity to Joe on the west coast, and Max on the east coast, or who have travelled to meet them in person.

LMAO...well that lets me out! Phew, what a relief! Now, if I just stay here in my landlocked world and not even consider a risk of contamination by going to the "Getaway" I'll be safe for another year!

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:55 PM

I have on good authority that they travel in black helicopters, too. But don't tell anyone, otherwise John in Hell may have to ki9ll you.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:43 PM

You and kendall are also part of the clique, jacqui.

It has to do with the Mudcat members who have physical proximity to Joe on the west coast, and Max on the east coast, or who have travelled to meet them in person.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:41 PM

Who are the 'Mudcat Royals'? We all started as newbies at one time or another and, most likely, a lot of us may not have known any other 'Catters before we joined.

I've been on this site for about four years but, in comparison to some of the founding members, still consider myself to be a relative newbie.

Over that time I have struck up friendships on the site and in real time with various 'Catters. As is the case everywhere, there are folk that you click with and others you don't and you gradually build up a group of friends with whom gel. That is a normal part of human behaviour on and off the net.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 12:00 PM

What a splendidly petulant posting! I can almost hear the stamp of the foot and see the lower lip thrust out...

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

Joe is your buddy, Amos. You are a member of the club. We don't expect you to see it any other way, except the way you see it.

Those who aren't insiders in the clique of the Mudcat Royals don't always find the same goodwill or hospitality you have been extended here.

So to suggest that people aren't being gracious is a gratuitous insult, coming from someone like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Posting with Civility
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

Heavy handed?

What is heavy handed is the bleeding sarcasm and ad hominem crap and the passive-aggressive whining and innuendo and tear-jerking "victim" crap that clutters up a perfectly decent site.

Joe's interventions have always been minimal. But even Joe Offer has a limit as to how much muddle-minded abusiveness he has to put up with in exchange for his volunteer work.

You dweebs and headless neophytes need to get a little bit more real, here. You're taking undue advantage of someone's good will and hospitality, and it is sadly unbecoming.

It is nowhere near as smart and thoughtful and "compassionate" as you wish it were and try to make it sound. It is, to the contrary, short-sighted and dull-witted and unfeeling and unkind. If you were taking responsibility for things instead of just carping, your whole tone would be dramatically different.



A