Lakeman and Harding

Subject: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

I note that once again Seth Lakeman appears on the Mike Harding Show. His traditional song the White Hare was played last week. I wonder if he plays it on this weeks programme?

Not that one expects any bias - but has anyone noticed any of the other tracks nominated for the best traditional track getting this amount of air time?

Dave

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:46 PM

Well he seems to booked at every second Folk Festival I read about too. I sometimes wonder how new performers ever get a look in with the limited list of performers that do the rounds of these festivals.
Giok

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:47 PM

I've just been listening to it.

Why does Lakeman adopt that silly singing style? Yes, I appreciate that he's very talented but that way of singing irritates me no end. I suffer similar irritation when I hear Sting singing.

Could they be related in any way?

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:57 PM

that's slightly unfair, Giok. I had a bunch of "usual suspects", but the revenue from the ticket sales they generate mean you can also book local and up-and-coming talent. The newer and local artists benefit from the audiences brought in by the big names - audiences who wouldn't necessarily come out to see a new band they didn't know, but who will happily go and see new things as part of a bigger festival experience.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:03 PM

I know the reasons Ruthie, I still think it's unfair, and anyway there are too many festivals, bring back folk clubs !
Giok

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST,Sage
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM

I reckon that the reason that Seth Lakeman gets played a lot on the radio is threefold: he is talented, young and popular!

I've been very depressed at the amount of negativity Seth has been getting. He might not be to your taste but he is to mine! He's a fine songwriter of folk songs and an exhilarating live performer. As to his vocal style, at least he makes a change from all those old farts who sing down their noses!

Yes, there are many quality musicians and singers who don't get played on the radio but let's face it, mainsream radio has always been a lottery. That's why things like Radio Britfolk etc are so vital. If Mr Lakeman can turn a few ears toward folk music and get people exploring when they were once dismissive then he is doing an important job. Long mayhe flourish!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:49 PM

Talented, young and popular. The first two of those are qualities shared by quite a few singers and musicians, but the third would seem to be a factor belonging more to EMI than Seth Lakeman.
Which is a shame, because his anodyne style and saccharine lyrics aren't to everyone's taste. I'd far rather three hours of Kate Rusby than three minutes of Seth Lakeman!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:52 PM

That's what really worries me about so many of the popular acts in the "Folk Revival" [how many is that now?] They seem to be so anodyne, so, middle of the road, so lacking in individuality!
Giok

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Gizmo
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

Huh - Just tried the bbc website to find Mike Hardings show - It has disappeared.

Does anyone know what has happenend to it?

It has been there at this time before when I have checked, so why not now?

Mike Harding has dissapeared from the BBC folk and country link, and any other link.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: synbyn
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM

my only objection to seth lakeman is that he seems to be basing his music on rhythm rather than melody- some of us were discussing this outside the marquee at a summer festival- is it the drumloop culture? otherwise, who can object to the way he and his generation of musicians are drawing young people in- the only hope for we venerable old codgers is to sit on walls for tourists otherwise....

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM

No problem Ed, but I suspect you are missing the point.

There are some important folk awards, coming up and there are four nominations for the traditional track. At this time of the year I would like to see the four nominees get reasonably equal air-time on the only Radio 2 programme that plays this sort of music. One hour per week.

Once the awards are over I couldn't give a monkey's how much air-time Seth Lakeman gets on whatever programme that plays his music, and good luck to him. I have said many times that I think he is a talented lad, I have spent time with him and like him a lot. I wish him everything he wishes himself.

And less of the codger, I accept the old!!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:02 PM

"songwriter of folk songs"


A what?

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:03 AM

To be honest I've watched this phenomena half a dozen times in the last 20 or so years. And it why so little has come from the folk revival in the way of memorable songs lately.

What saves us having to put up with it for long is the fact that the folk programmes always select someone young gifted and white; sod-all to say artistically and just about the musical talent to say it.

Its a pity that we DON'T get to hear the best songs coming out of the folk clubs, but as they say in the Godfather, this is the business we are engaged in.

Get used to it. Leave the guy alone - he's not going to come up with Streets of London, Blowing in the Wind or Dirty Old town. if someone does - like the Pogues, Tom Robinson or Jarvis Cocker did. they might get lucky and find another route.

No use bothering with with it.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

The show is on the site with listen again
No playlist though.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/harding/playlist.shtml

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: stallion
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:21 AM

Keeping abreast of this White hare and awards thing is rather tiresome, is anyone really that bothered? By anyone I mean the vast "unwashed" who will hear the song / songs on their merits, maybe the "trad" part was really an excuse for not being Pop, maybe the said Seth is a closet folkie, not really come out yet. The reality is that bickering like this, thankfully here and not in public, is niether here nor there, if I have an agenda it is to get more people out singing and playing rather than listening and if the said Seth's song does then so be it. I also don't think that pouring vitriol over Mike Harding is helpful eg; There was once a pub called the John Bull in York, it is now a car park, I was working at the land owners house and asked why he pulled it down..."I suffered so much personal abuse from the 'Save the John Bull committee' that I was determined to have the place pulled down, actually, before the abuse started, I planned to find a landlord who would pay his rent.....etc" and it does go on and on. Point is, working with people is better than trying to fight them, and, if one doesn't like the result, start a Folk Awards scheme using existing organisations. Personally I don't give a stuff, perhaps there is something else going on here, an "ownership" thing, when the great "unwashed" request a folk song, typicaly Wild Rover and Black Velvet Band it is usually met with blank or at worst derision, so, if that is all they know and are trying to connect and belong why are they not allowed in? Having said all that I don't think that The White Hare should be in the category that it is in and it has brought the whole awards thing into disrepute, maybe the BBC ought to take a long look at it, they won't because it there is no commercial value to doing so.
Peter

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST,Chorleybob
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:12 AM

Well said Stallion - especially the john bull story. I think there's always been an in-built resistance to any kind of wider success within the folk scene. Perhaps it goes back to the days of solidarity with the left and a suspicion that anyone who makes any money out of the music is an evil capitalist and therefore tainted.
I don't for a minute doubt the sincerity of those who are busying themselves with the White Hare inquisition - but I do wonder who they're trying to destroy in the process and whether, in the end, it will do more harm than good.
Maybe we shouldn't worry ourselves about how we appear to the wider world, but if I'm honest, I felt a twinge of embarrasment when I heard the stuff on the Feedback programme and then re-visited the threads on here.
Singers like Seth Lakeman and Kate Rusby, love 'em or hate 'em , ( and I'm not keen to be honest)have brought in a sense of vibrancy to a scene that was quietly mouldering. I'm not an economist,nor a Thatercherite, but even I can see the benefits of the trickle down effect. We should be cheering them on - the singers and the awards - and not trying to throw marbles under them.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:33 AM

As the person who raised the issue on the "Feedback" programme I agree that Seth and Kate have brought vibrancy and life to the folk movement. You will not find me criticising Kate anywhere and I have made plenty of posts about her.

I have spent time with and booked them both so it is not about them. Were I still active in that way on the folk scene I would probably do so again, and I recommended my daughter (who is active on the folk scene) that she book Seth Lakeman for her festival last year and she did so. I also recommended she booked him again this year. I am cheering the singers on as you suggest and have been cheering Seth and his brothers on since 1996 when I first came across them. Probably before most people had heard of them. So my track record in regard to that is pretty good.

Nor is it really about Mike Harding - he has his agenda - and he is simply a presenter anyway. A difficult job and one that requires his undoubted talents.

It is about the transparency of the Folk Awards and how they are decided. They are important because lots of money rides on them. This track not being traditional has squeezed out a track that was traditional. It is a strong category as John Leonard says, so there is every chance that the track squeezed out is a good one.

There is a clear definition from the BBC (=Smooth Operations) as to what tracks fit into the "Traditional" category and the White Hare doesn't.

I am not on my own - listen to Feedback again tomorrow - 1.30 pm Friday.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:49 AM

I've lifted this from a posting I made elsewhere

....but there are two issues here which I am not alone in thinking are important:-

1. The earning potential and survival of professional artists.

2. The credibility of the BBC R2 Folk Awards, the voters and Smooth Operations, who are responsible for the awards, the radio programme and the web site.

Here is a quote from someone who has benefited from the awards:-

"Make no mistake I'm as ambivalent about awards as anyone else. But I know too that winning Folk Awards can make a big difference to your career and profile. Winning three Folk Awards was the difference between selling 2-3000 albums or 20,000 and the difference between constructing month long English tours rather than slogging several hundred miles for a one off gig for no money."

Someone at the PRS (who administers royalties in the UK) has expressed surprise that given the circumstances of the song that it qualifies as a trad song. Their interpretaion of trad is not as rigid as mine (or others) but they would consider that the person(s) that wrote the majority of the tune and melody would have had to have been dead for 70 years. When a dispute arises, a dedicated panel would listen to the material before making a judgement.

I have no doubt that Seth is hard working, sincere and serious about his work and there is no denying that he has attracted people to folk and acoustic music which must be a good thing. He has, quite rightly, won many awards and will win many more, but the White Hare is more appropriate for an award of "Best Original Song" and not "Best Traditional" song. If we are to have categories, then surely scrutiny needs to be applied for the validity of a nomination. The livelihoods of many people in folk music rests on a thin and unknown future. That fifth entry could gain its performer some welcome opportunities either through being nominated or by winning the category.

I thought the "trickle down" as advocated by the Thatcher era has since been discredited. But in any case, there is so little money washing around in folk music there would be precious little trickling down anyway. I know this because of my involvement with a club and festival. One of the most highly regarded musicians on the English scene once remarked that he could make more money as a postman - still it might have been nice to hear some traditional songs and tunes coming along the street in the morning.

It is not Seth that is denying another person the opportunity afforded by a mention or an award at the coming beanfest, it is Smooth Ops, the Beeb and a seemingly clueless panel.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:25 AM

The most interesting feature of current controversy is pointed up very well by the recent Folk Hibernia programme, and how different it was from Folk Britannia. What we are seeing now, in the Lakeman business, is the folk establishment in England having a good go at pushing the latest great young white hope on a largely indifferent public. Not an indifferent folk scene, they are quite happy: it is the public who are disengaged. Folk Hibernia, naturally, concentrated on the aspects of Irish folk that entered Irish culture centre stage. The list is as long as your arm. Go into any pub in Ireland, and you can chat about Chrity Moore, the Chieftains, Planxty, River Dance, Enya, Sean Keane, the Fyreys...take you pick. people will know what you are ytalking about. Pop into the Pig and Whistle in Lowere Snoring, Borsetshire, and try to chat about McColl, Rusby, Nic Jones, Seth lakeman, Waterson/Carthy: I dont think your conversation, on average, is going to be very informed. The Smooth Ops/Radio 2 approach to this is to play Lakeman and Rusby tracks. Whether this will turn the great British public onto folksong remains to be seen. The incontrovertible fact is that the British public know the Wild Rover, the Black Velvet Band, as I think was observed earlier in this thread. And the reason they know them is that the Dubliners sang them, and sang them very well. Maybe Seth Lakeman will get himself to the position of an icon of English cutlure, maybe he won't. But he's certainly nort there yet. And I can't see that Smooth Ops ludicrous shenanigans are going to get him there faster, rather the reverse I would gues ()though they do say any publicity is good publicity).

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:36 AM

In answer to melodeon boy, 'Why does seth Lakeman adopt that ridiculous singing style, why shouldn't he sing however he likes? I can think of umpteen others who you could say have an unusual singing style, Peter Bellamy, Dick Gaughan, Vin Garbutt to name but three! it's just his style and you're looking for some shit to throw at him cos you don't like him! I don't know Seth Lakeman myself and have never seen him perform either but I do have a mate who knows him and says he's a nice chap!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:46 AM

Quite right Sir. People's culture usually depends on where they were born which for certain types of music can only be a 'backwater'. That's why the commercial people take the safe option.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Seth Lakeman is doing MORE for folk music than anyone has for a very long time....apart from Show of Hands of course! ;0)

The thing that saddens me about 'the folk world', particularly the er...English Traditional part of it, is the amount of bitterness, anger, upleasantness, narrow mindedness and in my ever so humble opinion, sheer jealousy, that gets thrown at ANYONE who is remotely successful....or young!

Perhaps it's because so many of the people within the Eng. Traddie world are er...over a certain age? Or perhaps it's merely because they were already old when they were young?

Now being 51 and three quarters myself I can only say how EXCITING I find Seth's music, not just for his sheer musical ability and sparkle, but for the way he's blowing all those Miserable Old Pedantic Train Spotting Traddies right out of the water and bringing in younger people who have no musical prejudices whatsoever, no fences, no rules or regulations.

Yup! Seth's bringing in young people don't stick their fingers in the ears, who don't bore the pants of people going on and on about "OooOOOOoooo The White Hare ISN'T traditional...so stop the world!", who don't stand for hours on a folk club floor singing 32 verses about a Ploughboy because their mother never told them to sit down and be quiet.......and who basically are there to have a bloody good time, enjoy themselves tremendously, find their own music and their roots, dance till they drop, thus defying many of the Moaning Minnie Festival Stewards who seem these days to work for 'The Ministry of 1984'....and bascially recognise Seth Lakeman's talent....which is outstanding!

Thank GOD he is playing at so many festivals!

Rock on Seth!!!!!!!


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

Re- Irish folk culture + English folk culture.......
Twas ever thus and it's a given that traditional irish music ("new" or old) is part of the culture, comes with Mother's Milk and isn't derided in the way that English folk music is. It's there to be celebrated and enjoyed in all its variation.
The English folk scene has always had a rather forced ,self-consciousness about it : singing in silly voices with mannered diction, romanticising heavy labour , silly in-fightuing about what's traditional and what isn't, valueing the obscure over the popular etc..
If you peer into its history, you'll find more earnest polytechnic lecturers than horny-handed sons of toil.
There's a body of thought that completely discredits Ewan Macoll as a fraud . These petty arguments have been raging since I started going to folk clubs in the seventies . It hasn't stopped me enjoying the music, but what a pity people can't loosen up and enjoy the music so all that hot air can be converted into something positive.
While ever we grub around in the dirt settling old scores and squabbling, those tired old jokes about aran sweathers and fingers in the ear will continue to taint the folk scene's image and it will remain an enclave for buttoned-up, prissy old codgers.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:22 AM

Well said Lizzie. I agree with everything you say.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:37 AM

Good post Lizzie.
          Show of Hands, the true path!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:05 PM

What a shame Lizzie, that you seem to be unable to read previous posts without jumping into a thread with both feet.

Virtually all the posts on this subject praise Seth. Even if they don't very few, if any, have a word to say against him. Certainly not me.

Now Lizzie tell me, do you think any song you like can be described as Trad. and then reach the final of the Folk Awards in the "traditional track" category?

If you had bothered to read the posts you would have read that the category for which Seth's song is for a new recording of a traditional song. Which the White Hare isn't. The White Hare as recorded by Martin Carthy, Joseph Taylor, the Watersons and others, is a completely different song.

Had Seth recorded that song in a different version there would have been no complaint. Had his song been in the "contemporary track" category there would have been no complaints. And in answer to "why it matters" it has been said a dozen times on this and loads of other threads and message boards. Go read.

Are you really over 50 years of age? You are wearing very well. Very well.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:21 PM

But Dave it doesn't matter. I think you and a few others have got a bit over-excited about it all. The Radio 4 lot at Feedback will be rubbing their hands with glee ...another chance to have a good laugh at the tragic folkies.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

It does matter. Money for artists matters and the Folk Awards mean just that. Try asking an artist, and see if it matters.

The emails I have received from artists have been confidential - but believe me none of them have said "Stop kicking up a fuss Dave - it doesn't matter".

And I didn't start this - the "folkies" at Smooth Operations did.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:59 PM

Dave, people who come here to defend Seth and young folkies have clearly not read the threads. If they did, they would know that Seth has been roundly defended in this whole affair, and that the whole point is to make the folk awards more accessible to a wider range of young traditional performers, and to ensure that those future winners can be proud of their awards.

The Seth anti-defamation brigade are either too lazy or too thick to find out the facts before engaging gob. I know which one my money's on.

Best ignored, mate.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM

What is not at issue is Seth's value and importance in the resurgence of folk and acoustic music in this country - there can be no doubting his success. What is in question is the validity of one of his songs that was chosen by other people, not him, for inclusion in an award category. He will do well, I'm sure, at these awards and others too, and good luck to him. But please don't confuse the issues or doubt the value and importance of other artists working at the forefront.

Would you still be feeling this way if one of your other favoured artists happened to be fifth placed in the nomination and therefore deprived of the recognition and possibly an award that could mean a more secure future?

Is is great that kids can go and shake their ass to Seth. There will, no doubt, be occasions when listening to mother's advice will be appreciated at a concert too.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Well actually there were a people who said not very nice things about the boy Lakeman.
But it was a minority sort of a thing.
I to used to go to the local folk club in the 70's and enjoyed it very much especially singers night.
Have recently recieved a flyer from said club stating that if attendances dont improve it will be closing.
We and a lot of our freinds could go to this folk club and presumably it would carry on.
But the half dozen times we have persuaded others like us who wili get up and sing or play, to go along the tradies have made it very obvious that we are not welcome.
In fact the main person who seems to organise everything was very dismissive of my own efforts as "oh its not traditional then" when she questioned me about one of my own compositions.
Funny but before she stuck her oar in I had avery good reception for the song and a few were joining in.
The arguement about the folk awards I can see has a point,as does anything were the rules are bent to fit a hidden agenda.
If you insist that historical tunes and songs are worth saving or reviving feel free.
If you want to be the folk monitors and lay down your own criteria for what is or isnt trad feel free.
I write folk songs,I sing and play them and others want to do the same.
Keep up your high standards and anal squabling and there will be no where left to play the music either the dusty dead mechaically recovered stuff or the stuff people will actually listen too.
As I have said before on t'other threads will the last one to leave please turn out the lights!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:43 PM

Surely the BBC could get Seth Lakeman, or any other "contender" come to that, to sing one traditional song,accompanied,-- one traditional song unaccompanied---one contemporary song,by anyone, accompanied or not, and one of their own compositions,accompanied or not. That ought to satisfy everybody !!!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

your own criteria for what is or isnt trad

An impossibility. A tune or song is traditional or it isn't. It's a definition, not a value judgement. Trad has a specific meaning in copyright law as defined by the PRS. Tim The Twangler's ditties may be well-received or not. I have no idea as I've never heard them. But a singer-songwriter who throws his/her weight around in a venue which has a predominantly trad performance policy in such idiotically dismissive, sneering terms fully deserves being shown the door by the organiser.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:40 PM

Tim, there are lots of sessions and singarounds that welcome a wide variety of folk, singer/songwriter, acoustic, etc. The two sessions nearest me are exactly like that, and if I get up to sing an unaccompanied song I usually have several offers of guitar accompaniment (which is very sweet). Maybe you need to explore a few clubs and sessions and find one that feels right to you.

We're talking about ONE award specifcally for traditional music - the only one that the BBC includes in the folk awards. Defending it does not equate to making value judgements or casting aspersions on the rest of folk and acoustic music. I agree that Seth Lakeman is doing an awful lot, through pop-tinged folk, to bring new audiences to the music which can only be a good thing. But when those new audiences have been around a while, some of them might want to explore the heritage of this music, see where it came from, get back to the source. That's what preserving the tradition is about. Not exclusivity, but protecting that heritage. For anyone and everyone who chooses to explore it.

And if you never do, it doesn't make you a "bad folky" - well, not as far as I'm concerned, anyway.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM

I can take a totally different attitude to countess richard, and say that clubs ought tobe welcoming and tolerant of anything and anyone.

But it doesn't matter because either way it is immaterial. If a club is closing it will not be the first or the last. Sheffield does not have a folk-song club within the city boundaries, in the sense of one that books guests and has floor singers, a raffle etc.

Yet it has a vibrant folk scene, with many young people heavily involved in the music, and taste to suit just about anyone - died in the wool traddies, contemporary singer-song writers, Celtic, English etc. And a good dance scene. I am sure smaller places could have variants of this.

Tim, why not start a club that suits your taste? Or a session in a pub? There is loads of advice for free - all you need to do is ask.

Find a local pub and see if the land. Before Seth Lakeman got to this stage in his career he served a very long apprenticeship adjusting his music and taste as he has gone along. I can remember him complaining that he would never make it as a professional musician and that was ten years ago!!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:16 PM

Dave is of course right in saying that clubs shouls be welcoming and tolerant. But as any fule know, many are not and I have roundly condemned them here and elsewhere for being anything from cliquey and unfriendly to care in the community drop-in centres. It is not, however, in the slightest bit helpful for Tim The Twangler to tell his local club that he's not playing unless they do it his way. Dave's right again. Go and start your own.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: AlexB
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:26 PM

Lizzie, as a mere babe just shy of 21, would you say that I have something against Seth because he is young and successful? Yet here I am, along with all these people of "a certain age" as you put it, who says that Seth's White Hare should not be in the trad category. I find your claims based on age to be quite frankly ignorant and age-ist.

Personally, I don't like his music, although after hearing it several times the White Hare has grown on me, but my preference is neither here nor there. The fact is that Johm Leonard is undermining his own awards, awards that can be very important to some people. It is not about Seth. He is just got caught in the middle.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: AlexB
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

Er, he has just got caught in the middle, not he is. Teach me not to proof read what I write before posting.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Seth is very talented, has done lots to bring vibrancy to the folk scene, and deserves several awards. This is not about Seth, Mad Person is right, the poor fellow has been caught in the middle. Neither is it about Mike Harding's or John Leonard's abilities. It is simply about an arbitrary (and accountable to no-one) process that allows a newly-written song with well-understood provenance to be labelled "traditional".

It isn't even about squeezing some other worthy recording out of the competition.

It is about that anoracky but oh, so important point that history can not be re-written. By anyone. There's a line in Pete Atkin's "Practical Man" that says "...there are just some songs that are not for sale".

This should also hold for the label "traditional".

My own home country's tradition thrives, and despite new songs constantly being written in traditional style (some great ones among them) there is no ambiguity as to what is traditional and what isn't. And no Greek would sell or buy that label for anything.

I am somewhat surprised that some people here are willing to let go, because "it doesn't matter". Because in my book, it surely does.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: GUEST,ChorleyBob
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:29 AM

The difference is George, that the whole "trad" thing in english folk music is obfuscated by special interest groups, in-fighting, class war, people who are up themselves etc etc .....that no matter what anyone says, the definition is clouded by politics.
I also think this row is being used as a smoke screen, almost like a legal tachnicality, to attack succesful young singers with attitude, Mike Harding,John Leonard and the Folk Awards. Just look back through the various threads and the level of bile is quite shocking. As I've said before, I don't think it does the folk scene's image any favours.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:31 AM

How right you are George. People should vent their feelings about the rape of 'Traditional music and song' toward the DCMS because of their draconian licensing system with regard to live music, not to some jumped up committee deciding to label something traditional. Which of the two is more important I would like to know.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:42 AM

successful young singers with attitude?

Nah, there are far more glaring examples of what's wrong with dumbing music down the MOR path among moderately successful, dishevelled older performers not averse to the misleading tactic of labelling their songs with already existing trad titles. And who's attacking Harding, Leonard and the Smoothies under a smokescreen? Certainly not me. I give out open and transparent, wholly justified, constructive abuse every time . . .

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Sugwash
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:09 AM

Ah, the tall poppy syndrome. Seth's doing well, let's get him!

It is my understanding that Seth put traditional (a dangerous weasel word, best left alone it seems) behind the White Hare because he felt that he had not so much written it as adapted it. I think we should applaud that; had he attributed it to S. Lakeman I have no doubt that the tumbrils od Mudcat would have been rumbling and many outraged posts would have been furiously knitted.

It is also, in my opinion, slightly ludicrous to suggest that he has 'affected' a singing voice. I suppose what the folk world really craves is yet another Martin Carthy clone. Let us celebrate Seth for his success and originality in a navel-gazing genre that, in truth, often does little to deserve new talent.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:16 AM

"I also think this row is being used as a smoke screen, almost like a legal tachnicality, to attack succesful young singers with attitude, Mike Harding,John Leonard and the Folk Awards."

Rubbish. What you'll find, over and over again, is people explaining patiently for those (like yourself) who clearly have not been paying attention, that this is NOT about Seth Lakeman's worth as an artist, nor about attacking the Folk Awards.

I meet exciting, successful young singers (and musicians, and dancers) with attitude all the time. Love 'em. The folk scene would die without them, and more power to their collective elbow. That includes Seth, especially for introducing more young people to folk. Some of the people commenting here have known Seth since he was a kid, know his parents, know he's a lovely lad, and have respect for his considerable talents (you can do that without the music necessarily being to your taste). This argument is about a specific issue over a specific award, and a song that is not eligible for its category. Simple as.

I had no particular problem with Smooth Ops before this all started, but have been consistently appalled over the arrogance with which the company, which is subcontracted by the BBC and so has SOME level of public accountability, has responded to a perfectly legitemate complaint.

And many of us have expressed, ad infinitum, that what we want is for the Folk Awards to BE successful, and to be the best representation of the genre that they can be. And for each award to simply do what it says on the tin. This is not about tearing them down, it's about trying to make them better.

Bloody hell, what's not to understand?

"People should vent their feelings about the rape of 'Traditional music and song' toward the DCMS because of their draconian licensing system with regard to live music."

Who says we're not doing that as well, John?

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:29 AM

I'm not saying we aren't Ruth, but I just wish the energy put into this was channeled in that direction. Will anybody rattle the cage on the night I wonder? Will anybody say that the licensing laws are damaging our tradition? That will be so much better than all the bickering going on here. George Papavgeris was quite right - what he said about Greek music certainly hit a chord with me, as do his songs.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:30 AM

Sugwash, I think you have misunderstood the motives of Folkiedave, Ruth Archer, myself and others. Please read my post a few lines above. I (we) repeat: This is not about Seth in the slightest. Indeed, had Seth called it an original song, we'd have been happier - me for one, certainly. But it's not even about what Seth called the song. Let me say it once more clearly:

It's about the SmoothOps-led process that mistakenly categorised the song as "traditional", and the subsequent SmoothOps attempt at justifying this action in ways that kept deepening the hole they found themselves in; because SmoothOps should have known better.

To simply say now "let it go, it's not that important" is effectively giving SmoothOps licence to rewrite history. It may not be "1984", but it is the thin end of the wedge all the same, when commercial interests - or anyone, come to that - can dictate to the masses what their heritage is. And the fact that the masses themselves may not give a hoot does not excuse it.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM

John, as Ruth says, we can do both. Indeed, yesterday I signed the online petition to Number 10 about the detrimental effect of the new licencing laws on live music. I don't have the URL handy, perhaps someone else has.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM

How dare you!?

I have written dozens of letters, press releases and appeared on local radio and newspapers highlighting the issue of licensing.

As a protagonist in the Licensing Debate, I succeeded in persuading Sheffield City Council to license the whole of the streets of Sheffield - as bounded by the Inner Ring Road - licensed for public entertainment. Saved individual groups including traditional dance groups the problem of licensing.

In Sheffield, carols are regarded as religious services around Christmas time. This now allows a tradition to go ahead without hindrance. This was the result of "folkies" pressing the local council.

How on earth do you think the permission for Morris dancers was put into the Act? We may not have succeeded in everything but don't accuse people of not trying.

I'm turning my attention to people who can't be bothered to read what people have written next. The campaign starts here!!

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:35 AM

No-one here is, as far as I can see, 'out to get Seth', though 'out to get the Smoothies, yes certainly. Speaking for myself, I don't particularly like Seth's approach or singing (yelpy register swapping and fiddle abuse are not to my taste) but recognise that he's good at what he does for those who like that sort of thing. The entire point is that The White Hare ought to have been attributed to him as a self-written song (as it is on the single but not on the two versions of Freedom Fields). Then it might have been rather less likely that the panel of 'experts' would not have confused the song (whether or not they actually listened to it, which seems unlikely) with the entirely different traditional song of the same title. The criteria for Best Traditional Track, as defined by the Smoothies/R2 themselves, is freely available and has been reproduced several times in the course of these threads. The White Hare clearly does not meet them. Seth has offered to withdraw the song's nomination to that category but Smoothops declined. A big mistake.

Subject: RE: Lakeman and Harding
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:36 AM

Time and again I see messages on forums from "newbies" who have found music via people like Seth and want to know more. He and others have also inspired people to start playing too. Irrespective of the collective or disparate styles, these new icons of folk ought to be applauded for encouraging new audiences. The Beeb, Smooth Ops and the panel of experts owe it to these new kids on the folk block and the performers who have inspired it all, to get it right - even more so as peoples reputations and livelihoods rest on these awards. There is no shame in having a tradition and an emerging body of new work. Both are valid, both have examples of songs we treasure and some we would prefer to forget and there is no shame in knowing, wanting to know and wanting to preserve the distinction too. It is a broad church and I love it.

OK Seth is getting a hard time from saddos like me. He has become an unfortunate kicking boy in the silly posturing by notables, sycophants and know it alls.

Sorry Seth.