Lyr Add: Roots (Show of Hands)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:09 AM

"Certainly the politics behind the song makes it hard to enjoy"

How many Folk songs don't have politics behind them? I think the Folk music genre wouldn't have many songs in it at all politics wasn't a part of it. Maybe you confusing it with a pop song?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 12:03 PM

"I clearly am missing something - I thought it referred to a river in the far north of England and another in the far south west, i.e. the greatest distance between two major rivers and still be within England. I'm not particualarly keen on it as a song, and wouldn't want to learn it, but I hadn't noticed offensive anything in it!"

I hadn't seen any slight on Northumbria either, but now Alec has made that comment I realise that Steve might have better said Tweed, if he were including all of Northumberland. The Cornish (ie West of Tamar) might argue whether they are or aren't in England, but most folk living North of the Tyne would probably say they are (at least South of the border).

But hey, Steve started to lose me at line about the song about Buddy Holly and the 1960s and he definitely lost me when he decided he didn't like how all my family speak. Fortunately I still like lots of his other songs. Indeed I still quite like Roots itself, even if I do mildly grimace at several of the lines.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:35 PM

I clearly am missing something - I thought it referred to a river in the far north of England and another in the far south west, i.e. the greatest distance between two major rivers and still be within England. I'm not particualarly keen on it as a song, and wouldn't want to learn it, but I hadn't noticed offensive anything in it!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM

From Tyne to Tamar....

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

Oops -sorry about the blank post, hit a wrong key.

Am I missing something? Is the song longer than the verses at the start of this thread as I can see no derogatory references to Northumbria?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM

Points accepted, Alec & Steve. And agreed also about there being no moral obligation to buy into a particular culture for whatever reason. As for selling English culture with positive messages, I see it is presenting examples to follow; this does not take away the value of examples to avoid - the "whingeing". Both have a place, and neither is sufficient on its own. Because unless you articulate the problem, you cannot address it, and seeing only the positive side of things can lead to blind alleys, despite the feelgood factor.

I can understand people being fed up with too much whingeing, but I hope they won't get defensive about what is wrong, either.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,StevenPiper
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

I agree with Alec in the above post, but with respects to "slating other cultures" this isn't done in the song, I was referring to the American Pie/American rap lines which were attacking those who don't appreciate English culture. Personally I love English culture and think we need to do everything we can to preserve regional identities, but the way to do this is not to criticise 'natives' who appreciate other cultures. It reminds me of the protesters a few years ago who went around giving everyone who bought a foreign car grief because they 'should have been buying British'. There is no moral obligation to buy into a particular culture simply because of the piece of land you happen to have been born on and for me at least I think we should be selling English culture in a positive way rather than engaging in bitter rants.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

The criticism I made of the song is largely based on the fact that we are informed that the song is, at least in part, a protest against the encroachment of Estuary English into the South East beyond London.
A valid grievance to which many of us sympathise.
But the Tyne gets a dishonourable mention at a very early point in the song and other areas do as well as the song progresses.
Regional difference is disregarded.I merely highlight Northumbria because it is my area & it is an area where Northumbrian pipers & white reggae fans can peacefully coexist & make hit singles together.
No region's traditions are seen at their best in town centres on a Saturday night had the narrative style been less prone to generalise and less judgemental their are many of us who would have been more sympathetic.
Whilst we may sometimes pretend otherwise up here nobody takes any pleasure from an English region losing its distinctive identity but I feel SoH put themselves in the position of the farmer who wishes to borrow a wheelbarrow in that old joke.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

Before he is being accused of near-BNP politics, I have to say that I see in the lyrics of Roots none of the xenophobia Knightly is being accused of. Nowhere is he slating other cultures; indeed, quite the opposite - he explicitly states his envy of
"... Indian, Asians, Afro, Celts - It's in their blood and below the belt
They're playing and dancing all night long - So what have they got right that we've got wrong?". In my book this is admiration and a wish to emulate, not xenophobia.

And his complaint is also explicitly stated: "...I've lost St George in the Union Jack". I wonder, why do others see such twists in the lyrics, that I miss totally; I don't think I am naive, neither do I have any hidden agendas, my heart has always been on my sleeve. So how come I see a reasonable lyric while others see SoH transposing their "SE corner of England" "whingeing" to the whole of England? As if we haven't seen dozens of town centres all over the country on a Saturday night, from Stockton to Bedworth...

As for the song itself, it may not be Steve's best, I agree - bloody catchy though!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,StevenPiper
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:19 PM

Certainly the politics behind the song makes it hard to enjoy, I think a positive message on the merits of English culture would be a far better way to deal with these issues than the excessively negative way they've done so in 'roots'. Getting in touch with your culture isn't about slating everyone elses culture or in this case any 'native' who happens to appreciate it and the second anyone approaches using the phrase "we're a minority in our own country" I just have to switch off. There are few things more irritating than politically naive musicians playing the moral crusader.

As for the song itself however, it's a pretty good arrangement for what it's aiming at. What it's aiming at isn't quite my cup of tea I have to say but I wouldn't sneer for a second at anyone who enjoys this style of music (whatever label you want to put on it).

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:13 PM

<>

another government bureaucrat...not something to be proud of..

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:33 AM

Yes, I agree with Ruth that there was no need to slag off Karine Polwart's "Daisy" unfairly like that. As it happens I like both songs, but IMO Daisy isn't her best by any means (as I don't think Roots is SOH's best).

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:53 AM

"Can someone remind me again what that is?"

You could try listening to this short piece on rural housing from Radio 5 Live about a week ago

http://www.savefile.com/files/473428

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:51 AM

Ruth, I believe the technical term for what SoH do is "Whinging".

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:46 AM

Coope Boyes and Simpson are "northern groaners"? Well, last time I looked Derbyshire was still in the midlands...but it is north of London, so I guess that's what he meant. Interesting choice of bands to take a pop at, when the reviewer is celebrating S0H's "anti-metropolitan, anti-urban" perspective.

And Karine Polwart is anything but wan and smothering. Daisy is a beautiful song, and Karine has written some of the most articulate and emotionally perceptive songs I think i'vce ever heard. Karine herself, funnily enough, has a career history of social work (unlike Messrs Knightley and Beer, to the best of my knowlege, who just sing about England's problems). She also contributed to the recent radio ballad about living with HIV/AIDS. But I guess she deserves to be trivialised compared with the incredible work that SoH are doing.

Can someone remind me again what that is?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

Just read the piece in the Financial Times - whilst I'm not particualrly fond of 'Roots', I liked the reference to Maggie Holland's A Place Called England. It's one of my 'showpiece' songs and, coincidentally, last night, I was gently persuaded to do a spot at the pub I drink in (with non-folky friends) because it's started an 'open mic' session each Wednesday. One of the songs I sang was A Place Called England, and it went down extraordinarily well. As one friend said - I had them (the audience) in the palm of my hand for that one and I was aware that the applause was longest and loudest for it. I'll do it again next Wednesday!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:07 AM

Thanks for the link, Keith.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:04 AM

Again,I would be a lot more sympathetic were it not for the presupposition that problems specific to the bottom left hand corner of England are unquestionably representative of the country as a whole.
In making this assumption SoH are no better than the metropolitan "elite" they affect to condemn.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:58 AM

Is 'David Honigmann' the new pseudonym for madlizziecornish? Does she have an NUJ card, I wonder?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM

A good piece on "Roots" and "Englishness" in yesterday's Financial Times.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/00320bf2-bb91-11db-afe4-0000779e2340.html

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

I though BBC English was based on the Penicuick accent.

eric

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:48 AM

I thought it was Surrey that was supposed to be a posh accent... but then on the other hand the "posh" accent isn't the real Surrey one, which I can remember hearing once or twice in my teens - and which sounded more like the Sussex one which can still be heard today. Possibly not relevant to the conversation, but I just felt like sharing - grins..... and rushes for coat.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM

He would.
But he's feel a lot worse if we were dissecting his melodeons.
Poor bloke.
Sorry, Squeezy!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:19 AM

He probably sounds 'posh' because RP - and, by descent, BBC English - is based on the Oxfordshire accent. He does enunciate well, though, and that makes a big difference. Poor bugger - he'd probably cringe to see his accent being dissected thus!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:13 AM

South Oxfordshie is posh! :-)

Thanks for posting the link, GUEST,Keith. I enjoyed that. Note the symbolic use of the Eden Project (branch, seed, flower, shoots, etc.) :-)

Who were the 3 Somerset Folk singers? And the band with the harpist? Can anyone identify them?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:00 AM

Just because he doesn't sound as though he has a piece of straw sticking out of his mouth doesn't mean you can't tell he's from Abingdon. It's the vowels, y'know.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:56 AM

Does he?! Whenever I speak to him I just think he sounds dead posh - but maybe that's because I'm an oik. I shall have to listen more carefully in future.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:42 AM

John Spiers has a distinctive and pronounced South Oxfordshire accent.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:38 AM

It did not take the "Roots" video long to reach YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5h4PFBuzvw

Worth a look if you haven't seen it. I like it as a song and as a performance. As a statement about the "state of the England" it however takes rather too much of a "glass half empty" view for me, and I still prefer the poetry of the Don McLean's sing that gets a swipe.

On the question of Estuary English spreading like wildfire through the nation's young, I am happy to report that from observing about 1,000 "young people" (well almost everyone looked younger than me) at the Manchester Opera House on Monday, only Russell Brand, Tevor Lock and I were speaking anything approaching "Estuary". Even Russell was not all the time, as he kept mimicking his audience. Listening to the Folk Awards from the same night, regional accents also appeared to be alive and well, with IIRC only Sir David Attenborough and John Spiers using "BBC English"...

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:58 AM

I understand, countess. Thank you - I didn't know the history behind your posting but I do now.

I happen to like Roots (and SOH in general) but it isn't their strongest song IMO - we're all entitled to our opinions, of course. I just wanted to make sure you weren't judging its merits based on listening to what sounds like a technically faulty version.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:38 AM

Ah, well you see Scrump, I didn't preface my post with LC's lengthy eulogies pre-transmission of how 'marvellous' Roots was going to be as I thought we'd had quite enough of that already. What I was drawing attention to was the way in which she was trying to make out that it was my fault for not knowing that this was not exactly what the finished product was supposed to sound like. Thought that was obvious. She later, apparently, listened to the very same MP3 streamed at the right speed and pronounced it . . . well y'know the sort of thing.

I dislike the track because it's (a) musically medicre and (b) lyrically dodgy. LC 'likes' it unheard simply because of its provenance. Whose ears and critical faculties need attention?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:20 AM

I'm not sure what your post was meant to make, countess.

It sounds as if a faulty version of Roots was created in error, and the harmonies were in a different key to the lead vocals (or whatever) because of an editing cockup by someone. Clearly that would sound wrong (although I haven't heard it myself).

Steve Knightley says something was wrong with the version in question; and even our old friend LC said it was awful, too, so I can think we can assume the recording in question was a duff one.

That doesn't prove anything about Roots as a song, or the other various recordings of it (including the version on the Witness album and the live version on the single).

We know you don't like it - fair enough, that's your opinion. But the existence of a faultily produced version doesn't prove anything about the song itself.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:59 AM

Allo everybody...
                      Just had another listen on the myspace thing.....    Still don't like it. Is it me or has LC disappeared form this thread?

                Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:51 AM

The first airing of Roots occurred on an online radio show around a year ago. Here is a selection from some of the reaction:

Steve Knightley on SoH site:
The version of 'Roots' previewed on www.coolasfolk.co.uk tonight was actually a tone too low - not sure how this can happen in the digital age, but somehow it did!

me:
I played 'Roots' from CAF archive through transposing software in a number of different keys and it's still a dirge. There is a limit to what digital enhancement can do when some of the harmony overdubs (however they were done, it sounds clunky) are actually slightly more than a semitone out of tune with the melody.

lizziecornish:
At this *very* moment I am listening to an mp3 of the Cool As Folk version which went out last night on the radio. It is *totally* APPALLING!!! It is playing mind-bogglingly slow and is thus *completely* out of tune and the words are slurred. Someone on this thread, who professes to have such a great 'ear' for music, appears to think that the version they heard on CAF was er...what Show of Hands *meant* to put out!!!!! Whereas little ol' me could hear how horribly wrong it sounded within seconds! It was like eating lemons!! HOW could *anyone* ever think that Show Of Hands could put a track like that out in the first place???!!

me
I listened to it again after learning that Steve Knightley was complaining that on transmission it was a tone flat. I first transposed the soundfile into several keys and then also tried speeding it up to match the supposedly intended key. And I commented that some harmony phrases (presumably overdubs) were out of tune anyway, possibly because of careless editing. I haven't any idea what SoH intended to put out and, personally, care less. But a band with a relatively high profile (whether or not I or anyone would actually pay to go and see them) should, I would have thought, have taken care to send out demos that were a bit less rough.

The presenter later apologised and said there was 'something wrong with the streaming'. Ha!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:36 AM

Great stuff Evil Ted. Enjoy the gig!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:14 AM

Morning Scrump. The Cd came with a jolly splenedid DVD like wot i can watch in my computer too. Good deal all round I thought. Just got tickets for Steve Knightley's solo show in Pocklington in May, so I reckon it's time for me to abandon thread!!

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:38 AM

Country Life - good choice, Evil Ted. Glad you liked Witness.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:13 AM

I do hope that's a spelling mistake.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,arfur
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:45 PM

Cuntess richard,
why do the English have no representation on the Council of the isles?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:38 AM

Yo Scrump,
                            A small consolation, I have enjoyed 'Witness'and shall be popping back to HMV this week to purchase 'Country Life'

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:16 AM

Well, it didn't win, and SOH won nowt. That should cheer some of you up.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Mr Fox
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 12:39 PM

"Hope Roots wins 'Best Original Song' tomorrow."

I don't. It's bad enough that the BNP has got council seats in some of the more jurassic areas of the country without the buggers taking over the Folk Awards as well.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:42 PM

I think 'Tomorrow Belongs to Me' has a better tune, and rather nice lyrics.
Anyway, I'm sure the SoH bandwagon doesn't give a tinker's fart about the ramblings of dyed-in-the-wool folkies on an internet message board.
For myself, however, I'd rather experience traditional English music through the lens of Spiers & Boden and Bellowhead. They played a gig near me recently and ended up with a superb session in my local pub which went on into the wee hours. And not a self-penned song or 'modern' tune in sight.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Spot
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 01:01 PM

Allo everybody...

                   115...yawn...listened again on "My Space..."

                  Still don't like it, I'm afraid...

      If it wins Best Original Song then the rest of us ought to get our pens out...!!
                  Its all been said before.... etc

    Having said that , I can't write songs for toffee...   :-(

                   Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,little richard
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:25 AM

ROOTS....Rightwing Outpourings Offering Tedious Senarios

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:01 AM

Anyone want to cast bets on whether it's another one of Lizzie's split personalities???

If the odds were as long as those in The Galway Farmer there might be some point. There's a massive outbreak of Cornish Multi-Personality Disorder occurring. Best course is not to open any mail that appears to have travelled via a devious ROUTE.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Albion Dizzy
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:47 AM

SoH.......Save our Homeland

Roots......Really Outdated, Overblown, Tinpot Sentiments

What d'ya think?

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: GUEST,Devil's Advocate
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:33 AM

Interesting - the wording and turn of phrase of the posting by Guest: Folk Award Fan looks suspiciously familiar. Anyone want to cast bets on whether it's another one of Lizzie's split personalities???

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:33 AM

With jingoistic overtones.

Subject: RE: 'Roots' by Show of Hands
From: Alec
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM

A tolerable opinion on some people some living in some parts of Southern England at most.