BS: Declining Standards of English

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: folk1e
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 11:15 AM

"Changing Standards of English" doesn't have quite the same ring to it though does it. I won't be the one to point out the capital letters in this post ...... no not me ;op

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:11 AM

"Language is a process of free creation; its laws and principles are fixed, but the manner in which the principles of generation are used is free and infinitely varied. Even the interpretation and use of words involves a process of free creation."

.... Noam Chomsky

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:09 AM

Hmmph! Got me there!

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

It seems inelegant only to those to whom it seems inelegant.

Or to those it seems inelegant to.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:15 AM

The kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put, as Churchill allegedly said. :D

In all seriousness, there is a vital difference between grammar which is arbitrary and authoritarian, such as the rule of prepositional endings cited above, and grammar which is critical to full understanding and correct transport of nuance.

Below a certain level of discrimination, it is all, like, I go, "Whatever", ya know? I'm like so going to bend over backwards to make my grammar right--NOT!-- and my friends are all, like, "Right on!".

Meeting the standard of basic intelligent and discriminating communication is far more important than answwering up to nuns with rulers in their hands. Beyond that, it's poetic free-for-all and the passions of the instant, the richer the better.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:20 AM

'I can only assume that these rules were broken so many times that the "grammar police" decided "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" and changed the rules to fit in with the de facto usage of the language.'

Possibly, but that's beside the point - the rules were wrong in the first place.

I'll tell you all a little secret: not everything you were taught in school, even to the tune of a hickory stick, is right. Yes, two plus two does make four. No, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with ending a sentence with a preposition.

"So to frequently split an infinitive is probably allowed these days, even if it seems somewhat inelegant."

It seems inelegant only to those to whom it seems inelegant.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Schantieman
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:29 AM

The prohibition of split infinitives derives (I seem to remember from somewhere) from the Victorians and Latin.    In Latin it's not possible to split an infinitive coz it's just one word: amare (to love) for example. So someone decided that one shouldn't do it in English either, which is pretty nonsensical really.

So to frequently split an infinitive is probably allowed these days, even if it seems somewhat inelegant. Unlike using a preposition to frequently end a sentence with.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Alec
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:39 AM

To boldly go,where no man has gone before.
A famous example of a split infinitive. There are 'Catters who would argue that if Shatner uses it,then it is de facto correct usage.
(I'm not one of them.)

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:31 AM

A lot of the grammar rules we learnt at school seem to have changed.

I believe it's now acceptable to wantonly split an infinitive, something we would have a got a b*ll*cking for in English lessons when I was at school.

Likewise, ending a sentence with a preposition seems to be something no longer frowned upon.

I can only assume that these rules were broken so many times that the "grammar police" decided "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" and changed the rules to fit in with the de facto usage of the language.

Languages are always evolving, so I don't think it matters. Go with the flow - life's too short, and other cliches I can't think of right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:36 PM

Okay:

To boldly look down upon those whom no man has dared look down on before exquisite -

Exquisite what?

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM

To boldly look down upon those upon whom no man has dared look down on before.

exquisite

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: folk1e
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:01 PM

To, without timerity, gaze earthward over themselves whome under over who negative homosapien has the ...... oh bugger it life is too short!

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:55 PM

(before).

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:33 PM

on.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:32 PM

To boldly look down upon those down upon whom no man has dared look....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: folk1e
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 07:20 PM

To boldly go where no man has gone before

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:33 PM

I dunno - "down upon whom to look" has a certain ring to it -

How 'bout "upon whom down to look"? Talk about your euphony!

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:12 PM

...I think we might prefer "...upon whom to look down...". Ya think?

In this case the verb is compound -- "to look down upon", in full. And "down upon" seems a bit stretched.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 11:38 AM

A whole entire buncha of people down upon whom to look.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

You can trust Frank Sinatra.

"To be or not to be", William Shakespeare

"Shoo be doo be do bee", Frank Sinatra

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM

Geeze, if you can't trust Bill Shakespeare, who CAN you trust anymore?
;>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Alec
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM

To take arms against a sea of troubles...
The most famous mixed metaphor in the history of the English language?

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:05 AM

Likewise the example of "Ames's" store. The owner's name was presumably Mr or Mrs Ames, and his or her store was "Ames's" store, sometimes abbreviated to "Ames's" for short. Da's wo' I finks any'ah.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:53 AM

"I went to the Doctors. (There was only one Doctor)" -

I can't speak authoritatively about the instance you cite, of course - not having known "She" - but my understanding is that if someone says, "I went to the Doctors [sic]", they (he/she/it) mean "doctor's" - in the possessive - short for "the doctor's office".

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: kendall
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 07:21 AM

Becca72, She had A number of quirks in her speech that bugged me.
1. Alls I had to do...(all doesn't need that "s")
2. I went to the Doctors. (There was only one Doctor)

But one of the more humorous statements she used to make, "She went and got herself pregnant." Or, "They took him out and got him drunk." Or, "Now look what you made me do."

She did well in school, but like so many others, she stopped learning the day she graduated. Portland high school was, and is a top quality school.
The one I attened was so sub standard, you could get a letter if you knew what the letter was.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:20 AM

No, "down on whom" would be correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 01:09 AM

If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me

I guess they might as well hang me for that as for the things I actually done.
Tom Horn

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:44 AM

It was good enough for Kris Kristofferson, the Rhodes scholar, in "Jesus was a Capricorn:"

'Cos everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 12:10 AM

>>>I wonder, now, <<<

Isn't wonder present tense?

>>if there is some deeper current behind <<

Isn't deeper underer?

>>>all these critical thoughts aimed at those who abuse the delicate details of form, <<<<

whoa

>>>whether or not<<<

is the "or not" part redundant?

>>>the substance of their communications is of weight or interest.<<<

Dude - I was enoying the Clarity of four Hefeweizen - but wait - now it's all cloudy. Whose communciations?

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:58 PM

"(crap .... a word derived from Mr Crapper's invention (the water closet))"

Ectually, he improved it, not invented it. And a bloody good thing he did, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:45 PM

yez all take this way too seriously. I think it's a way for people to safely feel superior. It wouldn't be PC to feel class superiority anymore, so you do it indirectly by feeling superior about their English. Bit sad in my opinion. I really like hearing different dialects, and I don't mind seeing them transliterated either.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM

Then there are all those TV chefs who don't know the difference between 'bit' and 'drop'.

"We'll add a bit of water" - NO YOU WON'T! you'll add a drop of water; unless of course you mean ice.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:08 PM

Argh!! My thin veneer of middle-class linguistic respectability has been shattered! Feeling weak ... ain't got no strength ...

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:51 PM

"a whole bunch of people to look down on."

Shouldn't that be "a whole bunch of people down upon which to look?"

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM

Yup. You (the generic "you") are only a generation away from the working class, and you dread the possibility that you or your progeny will make the short slip back down the social heap.

And of course one of the perks of having reached the middle class - to weigh against the insecurity of same - is that it gives you a whole bunch of people to look down on.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:30 PM

I wonder, now, if there is some deeper current behind all these critical thoughts aimed at those who abuse the delicate details of form, whether or not the substance of their communications is of weight or interest.

Criticality often comes, for example, from a projection onto others of that which one most fears or dislikes in oneself.

Just a thought...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Becca72
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:54 PM

My mother used to like to shop at "Ames's". Drove me batty when she'd say that. The name of the chain of stores, for those who've never heard of them, is (or was...they've mostly gone under) Ames.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:58 PM

Ranger Steve said (inter alia):

One of the many trade schools that advertise every five minutes on daytime TV has a commercial with the phrase "Hire Education" across the top of the screen.

Maybe it's on purpose, to suggest that after attending their establishment you'll get employment. (Actually, now that I wrote that in jest, I think that might really be the purpose.)

And people who talk about Lyme's Disease. (That's an eastern U.S. disease carried by tics. It's fairly common in the northeast and pretty serious). It's LYME disease - from the town of Lyme, Connecticut, where it was first discovered, not named after a guy named Lyme.

That's an example of a wider phenomenon. There's a chain of Italian restaurants called "Bravo". I lost count long ago of the people who suggest, "Let's go to Bravo's." And similarly with other restaurant names.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: RangerSteve
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:09 PM

One of the many trade schools that advertise every five minutes on daytime TV has a commercial with the phrase "Hire Education" across the top of the screen. Not a skool that eyed care to go two.

Two things that really bug me: people who claim to have prostrate problems. Does that mean they can't lie down?

And people who talk about Lyme's Disease. (That's an eastern U.S. disease carried by tics. It's fairly common in the northeast and pretty serious). It's LYME disease - from the town of Lyme, Connecticut, where it was first discovered, not named after a guy named Lyme. It bothers me most when I hear doctors get it wrong. I want my doctor to be able to call a disease by its proper name or I don't think I can trust him to treat it properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:32 PM

What the flip is all the fuess about, eh? You think Elnglish is declinin'? Ha! I tell you what is delclinin' around here and that is frendley women, eh? I mean womeon who will, like, say YES. Know'm sayin'? Them kind are harder and harder to find arownd here and it don't have nothin' to do with declinin' starndards of flippin' ENGLISH. I think is has to do with stuff like...the flippin' Wimmens liberiation movement and shit like that. There is a lotta bad atitudes out there right now and it is probally becoz of idiots like Gloria Steinberg and them types. That's my theery and I'm stickin' with it, eh?

It could also be the flippin' French taht are responsable becoz they would flippin' do AWAY with English if they could figger out how to. No foolin'. They are in a giant flippin' conspiracy to destroy the English race and langage. If it wasn't fer Don Cherry and a few otehr curageous men like him, English would be a dyin' langwage in this country. I flippin' kid you not! You can take that to the bank and de-flippin'-posit it, baby!

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: folk1e
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:20 PM

YES .... guilty as charged!
My spelling was, is and probably always will be crap!
(crap .... a word derived from Mr Crapper's invention (the water closet))
;0P      no hard feelings,eah

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:05 PM

No doubt. But more to the point, the poster in question exhibited a deeper understanding of the dynamics of language than many on this thread who exhibit superior spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM

Forgive me if I seemed to sneer--I was struck by the irony of getting a lecture on language and its dynamics riddled with errors in language.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Scoville
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 12:56 PM

Must add the two-second spelling lesson:

"separately" (separate, separation)

"definite"

"February"



I got an email on a professional matter from an MD the other day with "separate" and "separately" misspelled. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:08 AM

It's so nice to see someone sneering!

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

I assume you mean dialects, mimic, colloquialism, and whether?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:34 AM

That's OK, folk1e, I'm not a Geordie myself, but I can get by :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: folk1e
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM

In the "dim and distant" we traveled little and so many local dielects were created. We tend to mimmic the people who had power and so we have quaint customs like "Queens English". As the people mixed with one another these differing forms of the same language became known as quiloquialisms (pardon my spelling)which vied for popularity at different times and different people. This is not fixed in a stagnent state, much as my teachers would wish it was!
Individual people may be judged by whichever standard you wish and be judged as failing, but a group cannot. Once a group sets a new rule in place it becomes real so that weather I say "Youse dissi'n' me?" or enquire as to your "legitimacy of parentage" you can understand the meaning. That is the purpose of language and if you do understand it, it is succesfull!
Not that I am an expert ...... any more than you lot
BTW Scump "Yee tee" means "you too?" in Geordie ..... (ducks & runs)

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: clueless don
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:33 AM

Regarding "up with which I will not put", we all know that the correct construction is

"...I will not put up with, a**hole!"

(he said, remembering the punchline of an old joke.)

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Declining Standards of English
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:42 AM

Does anyone know why the British pronounce "tune" and "Tuesday" with an initial "ch" sound, unlike our American cousins who use the expected "t".

Because in the UK, in many words (not all), the long 'u' is pronounced (more or less) 'yoo', but in the US it's pronounced 'oo'. So, 'tune' is pronounced 'tyoon' in the UK, and 'toon' in the US, etc.

As I said, this isn't the case for all words. A word like 'rule' is pronounced 'rool' on both sides of the Atlantic. And there may be US exceptions I'm not aware of, that someone here will be able to supply.

An exception is Norfolk, where (e.g.) 'computer' is pronounced 'compooter'.

That's another thing that's annoying - people who get 'i.e.' and 'e.g.' mixed up. I often see documents with these abbreviations used wrongly.