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Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:26 PM I am not sure where to post this thought, so I'll hit both threads. I think it is possible to have an air of hyper sensitivity to an issue. While Black racial humor, can actually be funny and appropriate and NOT hateful - there exists an air of hypersensitivity around black/white issues, and the subject of black ethnic humor is generally (and righfully) taboo. Similarly, in the mainstream Jewish ethnic humor is practiced with great care, by those who know their audiences well, for the same reason; an air of hypersensitvity exists. This same air is NOT generally there, in the part of the world where I come from, for many other ethnic groups, and responsible ethnic humor can be safely practiced among a general audience. It's OK to poke fun at stereotypes of Republicans, and Democrats, Dentists and Lawncare Specialists, Irish and Scots, teenagers and Frat Boys ... again, as long as the humor really IS meant without malice. In the part of the world where I live, I have never had reason to suspect there existed an air of hypersensitivity around Gypsy ethnic humor. If in fact, this song is in bad taste, to my way of thinking, it is so because of that hypersensitivity. As one Mudcatter pointed out; if you want to judge the sensitivity of the song (or lack thereof) replace the word Gypsy with Black, and you will see. Agreed. But if you replace the word Gypsy with Paddy, or Frat Boys you will also see, the intent could be more silly then malicious. We never know the secret scars our neighbors carry, from hurts and wrongs they suffered without our knowledge. It can be difficult to get through this world without inadvertently reinjuring those old hurts of our neighbor, and sometimes we never even know it. I suspect the author of this song has done such a thing - certainly when I chuckled at the song that was the case. But I don't see intentional malice in the song. It's style is much more Animal House then Horst Wessel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:14 AM Hey, I've only been here since the start of August and I felt that what I was getting into was something magic. The 2 threads on this topic have been particularly nasty, is the Mudcat falling apart? I don't like animosity. C'mon everyone, hugs and kisses and handshakes all round. Be friends. Please? M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 20 Sep 00 - 04:20 AM Airto, I understand your argument but I work on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". It is a fairly common concept. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:05 AM and Branwen...I'll bet you never thought your CD Party thread would take this kind of turn.Hope you told the Blarneys what a shit-storm they stirred up.:>} |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 20 Sep 00 - 12:23 AM You know we've really beat this thing to death. We pretty much agree that it's an offensive song. Certainly not one I want to learn anytime soon, no scratch that, at all. But even the CD release is over. We can't even boycott it anymore. Rehashing it over and over is tantamount to putting a KKK rally on the 6 O'Clock News, so as to offend anybody who may have missed the original chance to be offended live and in person. Áine, I'm particularly sorry for all the grief that was dumped on you over this. Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Airto Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:29 PM Jon, As a principle, I don't deny your right to see those lyrics, and you obviously share my opinion about them. But given that even the title of the song was obviously dodgy, the onus was on those claiming it to be innocent fun to provide them. I feel sad that it was left to Aine to post them. It was clearly going to be very distressful for her. She felt driven to say she would do it, but only if nobody else had done so within a day. She was clearly hoping someone else would step in but that didn't happen. In her position I would feel the need of an hours-long bath after handling that material. Regarding your second point, you must know something I don't. However, to judge from the gaps in the lyrics as posted, and the insertion of the word 'unintelligible' in brackets on one line, it looks to me like they were transcribed from a recording. Not that it really matters. Arthur O'Malley |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:18 AM Airto, Although I do appreciate Aine's efforts, I think that it was perfectly reasonable for us to want to see what the fuss was all about for ourselves and I do not consider asking that information to back up a statement is pressurising. I have no idea whether Aine has bought the CD or not but I can assure you that she didn't have it at the time of posting the lyrics. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Airto Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:02 AM Aine, I am very sorry you were put through all of this. The lyrics of this song are even more offensive than I had been led to expect. I felt degraded just reading them. To have felt obliged to go out and buy the CD, listen to that song again and transcribe it must have been very upsetting. To those of you who still think the song is harmless, please look again at Aine's first post on the other thread. Then ask yourselves if there's not some link between what happened to her as a child and the portrayal of gypsies in this song.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Ebbie Date: 18 Sep 00 - 09:30 PM Barbara, to state the obvious: Because it's from an Irish viewpoint singing/teasing about Irish. The stein song is from an adversarial stance. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Barbara Date: 18 Sep 00 - 04:29 PM I've got a question. How is this song different from The Day Pat Murphy Died?
Let me also say, Aine, that I appreciate your courage in posting it, and, understanding the pain it causes some of us, I will not learn it/perform it.
Blessings, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Brendy Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:38 PM And nobody can make you, neither. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Pseudolus Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:42 PM Phew, it took a long time to read this thread!! We live in a very difficult time in terms of diversity, tolerance, and generally getting along. It seems the rules of political correctness change all of the time which baffles the hell out of me. It certainly seems simple to me, treat others as you would have them treat you, be tolerant and accepting of differences between yourself and others, and share those differences in a way that brings you together and not pushes you apart. But this thread has been really enlightening to me and I don't mean just the topic. I have seen the Mudcat Community come together to support against "flamers" and "trolls" before but the attacks in here seemed more towards each other. That, I've never seen before. Whether we like it or not, ANYONE can get to this Forum and there will be opinions and topics that we each may disagree with in a big way. there may be a lot of people who will see the lyrics and say, so what? it's only a song. Clearly there are those who believe the exact opposite. But if someone likes or laughs at this song or even goes out and buys the CD because of this song, does that make him/her a bad person? I don't think so. I don't feel I am in a place to judge anyone but myself. I wouldn't sing the song myself nor would I buy the CD. Would I walk out of a bar or concert based solely on this song? I doubt it. What if someone was to say that he/she was extremely offended to read "Fuck Off" and "Piss up a rope"? I can picture the posts now saying, "Well, don't read the thread then!!" But they were both here in this thread and although I have no problem with the words, I had a problem in how they were presented. I shouldn't have to piss up a rope or fuck off because I disagree with some or all of the posters to a thread. This thread got a little out of control so the poster in another thread that was talking about whether or not The Mudcat was as nice a place as she had heard, definitely had a valid point and concern. If this were the first thread I was exposed to in Mudcat, I doubt I would have come back. Frank P.S. For the record, I won't shut up, fuck off, or piss up a rope for anybody whether I agree with them or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:32 PM Well, I think the song is has no merit what so ever. It's stupid, and annoying and boring. Milton Babbitt on a bad day could have come up with a better piece of useless detritus. Now, how about a similar story that is TRUE and is NON-OFFENSIVE? Why hasn't THIS been made into a song? In the mid-1600's, Tsar Peter the Great of Russian went on a Grand Tour of Europe, meeting foreign dignitaries, establishing trade relations with them and the newly formed Russian nation, and exposing himself to general European society. Peter planned a trip to visit London. The British government assigned architect Christopher Wren (architect of St.Paul's Cathedral in London) to design and build a guest house where the Tsar Peter and several of his official would reside during their stay. Needless to say, this was a high honor for Wren! He took great pride and joy in designing the small but comfortable residence for the Russian leaders. After the royal company had left the house after their stay, Wren went to see the little place. He was horrified to see what had happened! Portrait had been slashed, scribbled on, and the eyes cut out of them. There were large stains on the carpets where Peter & co. poured lamp oil. All the furniture was broken, tossed about, and some pieces were hanging out of the fireplace. And most bizzare of all was the holly hedge! (my sister still get a kick out of this.) Out front of the house was a beauliful ancient holly hedge, 10 feet high and 18 feet deep. Now it was destroyed! Peter had made up a new game and encouraged his men to play along. Peter sat in a wheelbarrow, and had his men take a running start push him and themselves CRASH right through the hedge to the other side. They found it so fun, they decided to have races! When the games were over--no more holly hedge! BTW I hope this hasn't offended anyone. The Russian company were not backwoods bumpkins, many came from noble families, and several weren't even Russian...a Scot, and several Prussians & Germans. Moral of the story? Don't let any guys on their first time away from home into your place! Witness, the US men's hockey team at the Winter Olympics! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:56 PM Jed, I read your words "I don't see the hidden 'evils' in this song," and thought you meant you didn't see the hidden evils in the song. I was attempting to explain that. I can only do so much, and if you think the song (translated to be about black people) still would come across to those who hear it as "good natured 'poking of fun'" I think it's time for me to give up. I think it's perhaps time for me to give up anyway. I don't understand the hurt the way some do, but understand that it does hurt people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Joachim Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:41 PM What ways do you fight against them, cowboy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM Jeri - you haven't listened carefully to my thoughts on this issue (or perhaps I have not made them clearly). I don't sing the song. I don't even know the song very well. I have chuckled at it when I've seen it performed by the Blarney's and have no particular reason to defend it. I simply say that I fail to see any hidden evils in it. I also accept that other people may have reason to be more sensitive to it then I. Prejudice and/or injustice toward gypsies has not been an obvious issue in the small part of the world in which I live - so for me, when I hear this song, I simply put it the context of songs/jokes about Paddy and Priest, Abby and Rebecca, or other tales that have a good natured 'poking of fun' at the stereotypes. The song does not foster pre-conceived negatives notions about gypsies in my heart, but then I've never been exposed to real bigorty against them, either. And finally, I do not trivialize the suffering that anyone has suffered at the hands of bigots; be they gypsies or blacks, jews, catholics or any other convenient 'grouping.' I find the the teachings and deeds of hate mongers extremely repugnant, and fight against them in any way I can. I just don;t see that bigotry in this song, silly as it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Gordon Gottleib Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:46 AM Jed, The fact that you find such garbage funny is sad. Unfortunately, the fact that many people find it funny is a partial explanation of why racism is still so prevalent in this country. Sincerely, Gordon Gottleib |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:36 AM Jed, we try to understand why people feel the way they do, and sometimes get a clue. Sometimes we just have to believe them when they say something hurts. If the song is important enough to sing despite the fact it hurts others, than go ahead and do it. Those people will not understand why the song means so much to you any more than you understand why it hurts them. You can NOT get away with telling people they don't have a right to feel a certain way. That's what happened in this thread, and why everybody got so pissed off.
Try singing the song this way, and see how far you get in an audience not made up of KKK members: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:44 AM ... and by the way, I have realized through this discussion that there exists a more controvesial atmosphere around those called 'gypsies' or 'travellers' (synonomous??) then I have been aware of. And knowing human nature, I don't doubt there has been ugliness, in the extreme toward them. My point is, I don't see the hidden 'evils' in this song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jed at Work Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:40 AM Wow. I'm sorry y'all, I still don't see it. I have laughed for years at jokes and songs that stereotype my ethnic bakground - you know, Paddy at the bar, stories, Paddy's in trouble with the priest stories, Paddy's too drunk to hold a job stories. I've also laughed about musician stereotype jokes - you know, the bass player's too stoned jokes, the drummer's a coke freak, the lead singer is a primadona, and all musicians are always broke sorta jokes. I've also laughed at blonde jokes (my natural coloring) - you know, airhead, promiscuous, no count. Why is this different? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:30 AM At least now I understand why there's so much disgust regarding the song. Perhaps I've learned something from posts here, but I can't imagine this song as being funny. Áine, thanks for spending the amount of time doing what must have been very distasteful in order to post the song. I'll view it as you having pointed out the rather large pile of poop I don't want to step in. I grew up in a part of the country where I never encountered Gypsies. They were the stuff of legend, and I was an adult before I realized they existed in my day and age. Perhaps the Blarney Brothers and everyone who likes this song is ignorant of their existance. Perhaps someone has explained the song portrays a stereotype and hurts people, but like some who've discussed it, they just don't care. The primary difference between a light-hearted joke and a slam is how the person who hears it feels. Some people think that only the person telling it gets to determine that. Wrong. As far as comments about people in groups making messes, have you ever seen the aftermath of an outdoor rock concert or a folk festival? I'd hazard a guess that non-Travelers can make more of a mess in a few hours or days than Travelers normally make in a weeks or months.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: My name Jo Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:53 AM I submit that it was a very conscious decision by whoever wrote the song that the victim of the destruction wrought by the Gypsies could be assumed to be Jewish. Stein is a common Jewish surname. The underpining of the message would seem to be to sow, or exagerate, inter-ethnic resentment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:18 AM Mick, You know I'm almost afraid to post this for fear it'll be misconstrued as an attack. You held off for fear of wording your post wrong, but when you did post, you pretty much single-handedly diffused a really ugly argument in 2 posts. I think there is a lot more value in what you have to say than you give you self credit for. It would have been a great loss to have Áine or Brendy or Kat leave over an argument that snowballed like this one did. Please share what you have to say. I've been around here for a relatively short time, but I can't say I remember you ever posting anything that wasn't a blessing to the community such as it is. Oiche Mhaith, Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:49 AM Well Leej, that was an intelligent post and like you, I want to thank Aine and Larry for the education. Sadly when I tried to make the same point you did about other groups having more notoriety, I used the watermelon thing which became a thread. Thankfully, you have better sense. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:44 AM What I considered to be bullying was mostly in the other thread, LeeJ. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Lonesome EJ Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:39 AM WELLL...I really appreciate Aine' posting this.My request was for a personal msg,in case a potential poster would feel it inappropriate for a thread.So,Kat,I don't think she was bullied into it,but I think it was the right thing to do. Having said that,I would not call it unmitigated crap,or whatever Catspaw said. It is fairly cleverly written,and has moments that caused me to smile.(Sorry about that.)But I wonder if the writer would have come up with a similar situation involving Hispanics,Blacks,Comanches or Vietnamese? I very much doubt it.Why did he choose gypsies?Because they are a small,nearly invisible minority,and highly unlikely to be a part of the Blarney's target demographic.Easy target. And,you know what? If I hadn't had conversations with folks like Aine and InObu on the Mudcat,I would probably have laughed and thought it a hilarious little tune,so sparse was my familiarity with the Roma and the prejudices against them. But I have changed in the way I see Gypsies.And so it was right that Aine tell me of the pain this caused.And it was right that Joe ask that we see the work in question before condemning it. Do you see how much Mudcat is teaching me? Thanks to all of you.Now if we can just get the Blarney Brothers a clue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:17 AM You said it, Spaw, and I don't think Aine should have been made to feel (bullied, really) she had to post the damn thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:44 PM I posted on the other thread, but this is complete crap. Aine, as I said over there.....You have my doubled respect for doing this. I'm proud to call you my friend....I hope I'm worthy. See my post on the other thread. I hope those of you who thought this was a funny song had it confused with something else. This thing ain't just "one toke over the line," it has the subtlety of a Peterbilt smashing a manurewagon.......and it smells just as bad. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:26 PM Thanks, Aine. It would be interesting to see if a song could be written on this topic that treats the clash of cultures with both humor and sensitivity. This one almost makes it in places, but it's too full of unfair stereotypes. I'm hoping the "lie, lie, lie" is because it's sung to the tune of "The Boxer," and that it's not another stereotype. Nope. I don't like the song and wouldn't sing it. but it was worthwhile to see it for myself. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: Lyr Add: MRS. STEIN DON'T RENT TO GYPSIES ANYMORE From: Áine Date: 17 Sep 00 - 11:07 PM Mrs. Stein spends her winters in Miami And she lets her home to tenants while she's gone And last year she let her small home to some gypsies With a discount if they'd take care of her lawn Well, the gypsy king he swore they would be careful They would mow her lawn and prune her roses too Yes he swore they would be the best caretakers Taking care as only gypsies seems to do That rental was the ruin of her little sweet abode For they grazed their horses on her lawn and sold her flush comode And to keep the fireplace going, they tore out her hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Mrs. Stein forgot that gypsies come in bunches Like bananas on a green banana tree They snuggle up to shelter, warmth and comfort And last year, you know, we had an early freeze Well, the word had gone out fast to all the gypsies That the tribe of old King Yanosh had found a home There were cars from Texas, made in Massachusetts Gypsies got there from _____, and some from Rome They were sleeping in the attic, they were sleeping on the stairs Used the basement as a bathroom, really lent the place an air And to keep the fireplace going, they tore out her hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey In her living room, they opened up a barre jour And when the neighbors came to call, they ripped 'em off With crystal ball, tarot, palmistry and tea leaves Picking pockets of the ones that came to scoff Well, the things they did annoyed her irate neighbors (musical break) Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie You could hear their gypsy violins 'till dawn For they dragged her Persian carpet to the garden And they built this rageing campfire in the lawn There was laughing, dancing, singing, and the sound of tambourines Some errant neighbors' husbands were discovered at the scene And they helped to feed the campfire with what looked like hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Then at last one irate neighbor called Miami (Spoken) "Hello, Mrs. Stein?" And she told her Mrs. Stein just how things stood (Spoken) "I hope you've got good insurance, and you're out of beer." With the gypsy violins and rageing campfire Gotta wonder where the gypsies found the wood And perhaps the gypsies read it in the tarot Or perhaps the gypsies saw it in the stars But the minute that her jet plane left Miami They began to load her furniture in cars (Spoken) "Get the hot tub, the ______ machine, the whips and chains -- unintelligible -- and leave the bidet right where it is) They regarded household fixtures and their private treasure trove Ripped up the sink and ice box, the cabinets and the stove And as one last gypsy gesture, stole the last of hardwood floor Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey hey Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie Lie, lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie lie Mrs. Stein don't rent to gypsies anymore, hey
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Subject: Travelling People From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 10:52 PM Barbara, as I understand it, there was one family of Roma who were pulling a series of home-maintenance scams all over the West Coast. A very large, extended family - but still just one family. Wherever Western European culture sets down roots and lays claim to land that was once held in common by all, there are going to be culture clashes. You see it with the Bedouins in the Middle East, with the Native Americans and indigenous people everywhere, and with the Roma. I'm sure there is much about the Roma culture which is offensive to law-abiding homeowners - but I think the Roma existed before the property titles did. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 07:50 PM There aren't hard and fast rules about these kinds of things - it's like jokes. At one extreme you get people who are telling jokes about their own community/nationality/whatver in away that is affirming its strengths and its humour. And there are lots of in-betweens. But they all might be telling the same joke, but with a different meaning. And the same goes for songs.
The first thing that matters is the intention within the person telling the joke or singing the song; and the second is the likely way that the particular audience is going to take it. But of course in these days of canned music and so forth the audience can be anyone, and the discretion that good performers alwys have with a live audience is undercut.
"Offending" isn't the right word. "Insulting", and "hurting" are better ones. And more important, licensing prejudice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Big Mick Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:13 PM Yeah, Barbara, point well taken. And a very good post, by the way. I didn't find much in it that I could take issue with. The stereotype of the drunken Irishman is a difficult one to describe. There is merit to the fact that the craic is, or at least in most circles that I have been involved in, is best enjoyed over the jar of the dark stuff. There is no denying that the revel involved with the wake included drinking. What I object to is the portrayal of us as drunken Irishmen and women not capable of participating in society. I also object to the portrayal of the Paddy as a sloped forehead, ignorant lout of no use to the civilized world. By the way, I also object to those of Irish descent who use that as a reason to go out and act out those roles. These are the worst offenders, in my mind. I think what I am trying to say here is that there is a distinction to be made between a stereotype of a people that enjoy a drink, and characterizing them as a worthless, drunken race of slope headed savages that are of no use to the civilized world. Our people have contributed mightily to the cultures of many lands. Ours is among the oldest written histories, and literature in the world. When we poke fun at ourselves, or the human condition, that is one thing. But when the purpose of the song is to demonstrate that a whole body of any peoples is something less than another, that is where I draw the line. I know, from my wartime and Union Organizing experiences, that as soon as one side can dehumanize the other that the gate is open for wholesale discrimination and moral as well as criminal persecution. Maybe that is the distinction, eh? Thanks for asking, my friend. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,Lieut. Commander Worf Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:23 PM Klingon blood wine, anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Barbara Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:06 PM Way back at the beginning of this thread, I asked for the lyrics for this to be posted. It's been a number of years since I heard the song, and I don't remember it being that offensive. Now before you all leap on me, let me ask some questions. I hear very strongly that the Roma culture is persecuted in England and in Germany. I followed kat's links and read some of the history. I saw Ladlo Drom and loved it, and sing and enjoy Ewan's songs about the travelers. It has also been my impression, and to a small degree my experience, that there is a part of the Roma culture here in the US that has a penchant for raising money through questionable operations, earlier in relation to horsetrading, and more recently in relation to asphalt. Are the US and UK cultures the same, similar? Do Roma travel in bands in the US? I don't think I've encountered this except for the part of the Roma that work with carnivals, and the asphalt crowd. I had a good friend who was Roma in college, and her father taught at the University of Toronto, and wasn't a part of a band that I knew about. I had always assumed that the running of scams (by whatever portion of the tribe) went with the fierce loyalty to community, and mainting of difference between "us" and "outsiders" (who are fair game). (There are some similar traits in some of the American Indian cultures). People who fall for the schemes are usually greedy, and believe they are conning the Roma instead of vice versa. It seems to me they get what they deserve, even when they are my grandparents. So if there was ever an opportunity for me to be a part of Roma music and dance, I would do it in a hot minute, but I probably would choose someone else to pave my driveway. I know, you'll say with an attitude like mine, I won't get asked to the dance. So be it. Thing is, I can respect another culture without (1) expecting it to play by the same rules as mine and (2)without trusting its members to play by my rules. This is part of what "unassimilated" means. Blessings, Barbara PS Mick, how do you feel about all those Drunken Irish Wake music hall songs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Big Mick Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:05 PM I have read this and wanted to comment, but each time I couldn't find the words that I needed to find. Still not sure if I can, but let me try with a few takes. First off, GUEST, why don't you bugger off?? Many folks here have taken stands on this issue, principled stands, based on their take. And they post their names. I have respect for them, even if I don't agree with a large percentage of them. You are a non entity. You know, like the person that bitches about the state of the government, but doesn't vote. If Brendy left, this place would be a great deal the lesser for it. If you left, no one would miss you. To those that don't get why Aine and Larry are hurt by this song,......that is exactly the point. It doesn't matter if you can feel, or get, the hurt caused by these things. You are not the victim of them. That is the difference between people of conscience who are trying to make a better world, and people who think that if their world is OK then the rest of the world are a bunch of whiners who lack self motivation. It is not enough to say that you have never discriminated hence you are not the problem. Caring people, people who believe that making the world better for their kids involves making it better for all kids, try to figure out what it is that a group finds offensive. And is sensitive to that. Aine, you are a brave person to confront these memories. And you are a noble person to embrace your heritage. And you are generous of spirit to share it with us. The feelings that you caused to well up in me are beyond description. Thank you for sharing this. And by the way, Mudcatters, Aine only sought to share her feelings, to give you information that you could make your judgements about this and other issues as concerns the Roma/Pavee. If you are a person who ponders these things, use her brave confession, and the information that Larry has given us to ponder your own feelings about these people. I think we need to lighten up a bit on Joe. Because he is right? No, because he stepped into something and doesn't know the way out. And because he has done as much to keep this place going as anyone here. I believe that he is focused wrong on this issue. Joe, why are you getting upset that the people most offended by this song aren't posting it? Buy the CD, my friend, and post the lyrics yourself. At no time did I find anyone trying to intimidate anyone else from posting it. They simply refused to post it themselves. And Joe, the title itself is offensive to me. I think that I can imagine the content of this song just from this alone. The title is meant to conjure stereotypical images, and they are negative. Oh yes, and by the way, you just blew your canonization with the language.................LOL...................I know the feeling. Nice to see that you are human, but I wonder what caused that. I have been here quite a while and never seen that side of you. And lest you misread the context, these are remarks meant to make you chuckle, not get mad. Do I think that the words should be posted? Absolutely. Am I going to seek them out to do so? Absolutely not. But when someone else does, I will surely read them and make my own judgements. I feel no different about this song than I do about the songs of the Orange Movement. Songs like this, along with these discussions, shape the historical record. It allows those who come after to make their own judgements about our times, and our sensitivities. I am glad for these threads, just as I am happy about the discussions of "The Troubles" and the marching season, and the rebel music. Max has told us that this will all be preserved, that those that come later will be able to read our comments and they will learn. We cannot control what they think of us. But we can contribute information that will be used to shape those opinions. Have some confidence folks, what you are speaks louder than what you say you are. Brendy, I am very glad that you are here. I don't agree with you on certain issues and wholeheartedly agree with you on others. But you are a straight talker, and a take no prisoners debater. You speak from a heart that is tempered in passion and experience. That is good. I do wish, an Bráithair Brendy, that when you have a person of demonstrated character (like Joe Offer) down, you would leave it there. You won the debate, no need to choke the last breath out of him. Joe is a wonderful person and a friend. Graceful victory is a virtue. You won the debate. Let it lie. To all, I would ask you to consider this. There was much talk on this subject, but not a whole lot of communication on this thread. That is the fault of the proponents of the various positions. You were so hung up on your respective opinions that you missed the opportunities for understanding, common ground, and true communications. And you talked in circles. I have done it many times, how about we learn from it? Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM Well Branwen has kindly supplied me with the link to the track and am now in a position to offer my opinion: I agree with Aine that the band are talented and that it is a shame that they decided to include this track. I loved the tune - shame it was wasted on what I consider to be a very insulting set of words. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:25 PM Well, it should be here this time - I left a = out last time.
And if it still doesn't work,here is the link in open: http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/d/d008.html
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:22 PM Thanks Branwen, but while I'll read the words with interest when someone post them here, I doubt if it's a song I'll want to listen to.
Here is one that might be more appropriate to us right now.
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Branwen23 Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:27 PM um.... if anyone still cares, I have the cd, and anyone who cares to hear the song, PM me your email address and I can send it to you as an attachment. Please specify MP3 or WAV. IF you'd prefer not to receive so large an attachment in your email, or are unable to, I can give you a link and instructions for downloading it. -Branwen- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:59 AM Re: Jeri's last paragraph--------Yeah Brendy, what she said. As to the gutless wonder who wishes not to be publicly associated with you.........Screw 'em. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jeri Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:47 AM Folks, I never quite understood why Brendy got so upset about this, but that's why he's here. If we all share the same opinions and write with the same style, we might as well talk to ourselves. Brendy, you seemed to get quite mad at some people, but that's fine. I'm an adult, and I can take it. (I fully expected to be told to "fuck off" at some point.) You presented a point of view on this song that no one else had, and I learned something from it. As far as stealing arangements, I don't doubt you expressed your feelings about that to the person who told you they were going to do it, and it's not a surprise to read here-and-now you're mad about it. If someone uses your arrangement without crediting you, it's wrong. What if they tell people who they learned it from? It's something that's done all the time, and I've bought recordings because someone said "I learned the way I play that from (this musician/this CD)." Is it still wrong? Re going "GUEST," you're probably gonna get more shit than you do with a name, and you're going to get lumped in with all the other anon guests. I would think there's a very small number of people who've pissed you off, and there's a rather large number who learn something from what you write. If you feel it's necessary to change they way you do things because of few people, it's your choice. I personally don't want to lose "Brendy." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: katlaughing Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:30 AM As do I, Jon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: bob schwarer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM Good riddance. Too many here intollerant of any opinion that does not agree with theirs. Bob S. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:24 AM Well I for one hope that Brendy stays. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST,another guest Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:17 AM Take that lafkat thing with you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 00 - 09:16 AM Could we be so lucky as to see Brendy the nitwit finally leave? Probably not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:54 AM 'Shut up', I think, was your P - K4, Joe. I have no desire to 'fight' neither. Virtually, or otherwise. But I cannot discern any lessening in your position as to who gets the arbitary 'bullying' tag, when they get it, and by whom they get it from. Being called a 'bully' insults my intelligence, more than causes any actual hurt, and, I'm afraid, gets the obligatory 'Go Fuck Yourself' award from me. Oh, just before I go. What would your opinion of a person be if they sent you two PMs telling you that (a) that they loved your version of a song, and (b) was 'stealing your arrangement' of it, and propsing to use it, yet who told me didn't want to be seen posting to the thread (which I had started), because of what certain others might think? The question was rhetorical. And like yourself, I grew up believing in the 'sanctity of the confessional'. For that reason no-one will ever know who it was that hadn't the common decency to at least 'tip their hat' in my direction for fear of.....for fear of what? Loss of image? Who knows, Joe. Who knows. I'm not into this 'image' thing. I'm actually fairly 'shy' when it comes to 'advertising' what I do. I never think it's good enough, d'ya know what I mean? But when somebody sticks their hand right up your ass, and smiles when they say, 'Great Brendy, I loved your stuff. Now I'm going to take your riffs. But I wont be seen dead thanking you', it says more about the other person than it does me, IMO. Goodbye folks. Take my membership, Joe. Be my guest. I will become yours. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Joe Offer Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:43 AM I've said what I have to say. Thanks for your comments, Brendy, but I have no desire to fight and don't know how I got baited into this in the first place. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Blarney Brothers Cd release - Dallas From: Brendy Date: 17 Sep 00 - 02:18 AM Joe. You really have your head right up your own ass on this one, I'm afraid. I'm sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. Look: I am not one of these "...working very hard to prevent the posting of this song..". If you think that, you've been reading my posts all wrong. I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OTHERS POST IN THIS FORUM. So how the fuck can I (or others) prevent the song's posting? You're making a lot of extravagant claims up there, Joe. But your 'take' on the situation concerns me not. What does, is your quite obvious attempt to attack others who find the sentiments of this song abhorrent, and accuse them of every other crime under the sun. Let's start way up at the top again, shall we? Barbara said, in her first post: "while you're at it. I would still like to see them. Here. The single-most significant part of that post, is the full stop (period), after 'them', and before 'Here'. I am not intimidating anyone on this forum. To insinuate that any of the people opposed to the sentiments of this song are intimidating anyone, is as red a herring as I've seen in a long time. Date: 16-Sep-00 - 03:13 AM Well, I have to admit there are a few requested songs that I've had, but didn't post because I objected to them for one reason or another. I kind of hope that we might agree that if and when the song is posted, we attack the song, not the posting of it or the person who posted it. -Joe- Absolutely, Joe. But what if that person is posting the song, so as to rub it into the noses of others, what then? And Jeri, you're right, about all this 'talk-around' I don't take that kind of garbage from anybody. I've experienced my share of coat-trailing, in my time. And I've experienced freedom of expression at first hand, many times, when the Orange mobs used to try and use our front living room as their playground. All because of their right to be '.Here' Re-define bullying, and intimidation, Joe, and others. Because I don't want to be having this same conversation anytime in the forseeable future. I, too, am here to contribute what I can to the overall pot. And, for what it's worth, try to give a bit of advice here and there. But I think you will find that whatever else I do, if I spot bigotry or coat-trailing, especially aimed at people I care about, I'm going to defend that corner. Of course I am. I believe in a free and open society. But my vision of utopia doesn't include walking over the sensibilities of others, just because you have the right to. That is fascism, Joe. And that kind of thinking gets right up my nose. B. |
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