BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

I was horrified to read this.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:14 AM

Ever since the Viet Nam war, soldiers have come back & been dumped on the streets, many suffing from PTS syndrome (my singing mate was just diagnosed 2 yrs ago, about 38 yrs to late & my brother has been seen plenty of times over the past 40 yrs but never been treated, he believes he has been exposed to 'agent orange', has PTS & I know he has 'survivor's guilt' from the loss of the Scorpion). Many of these soldiers treat themselves & self medicate (which makes them a criminal if it's drugs) since they can't get any one else to treat them. Many are also unable to hold down a job, which leaves them very few choices when it comes to survival (my brother was a seal & an expert in underwater demolition, he hasn't had a steady since he's come home, my singing mate was a nurse but could only work nights). I think with Iraq, because much of the wounds are to the head that we'll see an uncanny rise in "homeless" & "imprisoned" vets. Obama is taking issue with our failures to address health care for the vets, something that Bush has been cutting back on.

Barry

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:21 PM

The help and support given to US soldiers may be better than that available for UK soldiers - but it appears to be pretty inadequate as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:00 PM

Not only is there a shameful lack of support given to former soldiers in the UK but the support given to ex-prisoners is inadequate, so some are getting a double dose!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

Always glad to highlight "lost causes" Keith, especially if they happen to be British soldiers.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 07:29 AM

Ex servicemen are also over represented among homeless vagrants.
Oakville does a service to them in highlighting the shameful lack of support given to them here, certainly in comparison to the help and support US vets receive.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:34 AM

According to news today it's not only the courts in Iraq that is interested in British soldiers.

Probation staff union Napo said its figures show that one in ten of prisoners currently held in British jails used to be in the armed forces.

Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn Llwyd confirmed that over 8,500 former soldiers, sailors and air force are currently serving sentences. He said it is an unacceptably high number for a body who once prided itself on discipline. He has called on the Ministry of Defence and charities to do more to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 08:22 AM

I've reported Dianavan to the RSPCG....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:42 AM

Hey stigweard, what's 'my' ghost doing in your post, dianavan allocated him to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Stu
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

100 - twice in one week.

Woo-hoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:18 AM

99 is the new 100

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:02 AM

Personally, I wouldn't wish such a fate on any ghost...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Troll
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 10:51 PM

Kevin,

It was Crosby, Stills, and Nash, not Paul Simon.

(Unless Simon wrote the song)

Dianavan, I know men who did much worse in WWII, and Viet Nam who came home, married, raised families, led productive lives and never abused or harmed anyone. If your experiences with returning soldiers has been different, than I am sorry for your bad luck.

That you should wish for Nadhem Abdullah's ghost to haunt Terebus simply for commenting favorably on the verdict exonerating those accused of his death indicates to me that you feel that if a soldier is accused, he must be guilty.

I,personally, would not comment on the justicification of the verdict unless I had read the transcript of the trial myself. I tend to be mistrustful of the media these days.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM

dianavan - 05 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM

"...and may the ghost of Nadhem Abdullah haunt teribus for the rest of his life."


Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh (slight pause) Ooooooooooooooooooh

There feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM

...and may the ghost of Nadhem Abdullah haunt teribus for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:14 PM

There isn't even a body, Kevin

There was. The body of a boy called Nadhem Abdullah, aged 18. Buried after he died in hospital, following the assault. There wasn't a post mortem, but that's another matter.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he wasn't killed and that he sholdn't have been killed. But that is a long way sort of being able to pin the blame on particular individuals. Botched investigations produce that kind of result.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:57 PM

You know, teribus, that it is not likely the death was thoroughly investigated or taken to the appropriate court. At this point, it doesn't matter much except to say that these men will have to live with their conscience regardless of the outcry by Amnesty International.

I wish they were identified so that unsuspecting women would not marry them and/or bear their children. Such brutality is not left in the field. These men will return civilian life and continue their reign of terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 06:38 PM

MGOH

"The court also heard that blood matching the dead man's DNA was found in a screw recess in one of the soldiers' rifles."

There isn't even a body, Kevin

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:58 PM

From a report by the German news agency Deutsche Presse-Agentur reproduced here :

The court also heard that blood matching the dead man's DNA was found in a screw recess in one of the soldiers' rifles.

Of course in order to justify a conviction against a soldier on the basis of this it would have been necessary to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular soldier had wielded the rifle, and inflicted injuries that killed the boy. The judge reasonably enough decided that this was not possible.

But the fact that it is impossible to determine who murdered the boy does not mean that he was not murdered.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:07 PM

Good to see that you can occasionally be civil Teribus, but your attempt at psycho-analysis is a bit off the mark!!

I'm no great supporter of "left wing" politics, as you would have gathered if you had indeed read my posts.
I just feel they are a slightly better option than the credo that you follow.

In the course of my work I encounter quite a number of retired military types, all seem to carry around a great burden of mis-placed anger.
This anger tends to obscure reality and leads in many cases to arrogance, bullying and verbal abuse.
Needless to say the "types" are usually quite unaware of this condition....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM

Well then Ake,

Very pleased to hear that you are not a hate filled, bigotted, unfeeling, moron with the honed killing skills of an accomplished Ninja.

Guess what after having done my time in Her Majesty's armed forces neither am I.

So that's alright then all's well that ends well.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:29 PM

Teribus.. Thankfully I just missed "National service", but many of my friends and workmates served.
I had known these people from childhood and their personalities were much changed for years after serving in Cyprus.
Two good friends who still live locally, never got over the experience.

I do feel fortunate in having "missed the cut", had I been called up to have my brain scrambled, I would doubtless be supporting yourself , Doug, Hubby, Keith ....my god its too horrible to contemplate....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:28 PM

"The figures, 160 out of 184 speak for themselves."

Damn right they do dianavan, they tell me that out of 184 cases investigated only 24 are being pursued. Those 24 cases MAY go before military Courts Martial, where believe me things are slightly more stringent than in a civilian court of law.

Any of our transatlantic friends who may believe that a Court Martial is what is depicted in JAG - don't you believe it for one minute:
- No Jury
- A board of five senior officers

They take a bit of convincing, certainly more so than a jury, with regard to 'reasonable doubt'

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:14 PM

teribus - The figures, 160 out of 184 speak for themselves.

Its enough to make any thinking person, wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:52 PM

dianavan - 05 Nov 05 - 02:33 PM

So dianavan what you stand by is as follows:

"the Royal Military Police have INVESTIGATED 184 alleged offences in Iraq, 160 of (THOSE INVESTIGATIONS) were completed without any further action being taken."

OK then dianavan how many of those cases should have resulted in prosecutions, remembering, of course, that you are sitting fat, dumb and happy over there in BC at some remove from where those incidents are taking place, let us also remember that you are not exactly impartial, or objective in your judgements. OK dianavan how many? Please tell us.

Believe me dianavan, post March 2003 Iraqis have more access to justice than they have had for at least damn near fifty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:33 PM

Teribus - My comment, "We may have given them democracy but we never promised justice!", referred to, "So far the Royal Military Police have investigated 184 alleged offences in Iraq, 160 of which were completed without any further action being taken."

I was not referring to a specific trial, especially since the posts on this thread seem to have veered from the case referred to in the original post.

If we are discussing a specific case with specific circumstances (the one you are talking about) I would agree that, without a body or a post mortem, it should never have gone to trial.

My comment regarding justice for the Iraqis still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:11 PM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

"DNA might be difficult.
There is no body or grave or even proof that anyone died."

Oddly enough Keith those are the FACTS that utterly amazed me. The British Government in their haste to prove that all was being done above board engage in an investigation into the alleged murder of an Iraqi teenager - AND THERE ISN'T EVEN A BODY OR A POST MORTEM

This cost the British taxpayer somewhere in the region of between £8m and £10m.

Even the Judge Advocate stated that the charges should never have been brought.

To all those who might disagree with what I have said above, I will ask you one question. How many of you would be prepared to stand trial as the accused in a murder trial where there is:
1. No body
2. No postmortem to establish cause of death
3. A wide range of witnesses who are only there to testify against you because they are personally profiting from the exercise.
4. Where none of the witnesses appearing for the prosecution can identify YOU as the perpetrator of the crime.
5. Where this wide range of witnesses openly admit that they lied.

Now come on dianavan, I want to hear that you'd be prepared to put yourself in the dock and accept the judgement handed down under such circumstances - I don't think for one second that you would.

Damn sure I wouldn't - Thankfully, neither did a British Court Martial trying British Soldiers - Good for them - Now ACCEPT tyhe ruling of a legally constituted court - or are willing to demonstrate to all on this forum that you support kangaroo, drumhead courts where the outcome is set before the trial ever takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:44 AM

Yesterday 3 British soldiers charged with offences against Iraquis were acquited.
The witnesses admitted lying.
They had been on 100 dollars a day expences and stood to gain a fortune in compensation.

Yes, the investigation which rightly took place was completely bungled.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

DNA might be difficult.
There is no body or grave or even proof that anyone died.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:25 AM

Well then Ake,

As almost every male from the age of eighteen was required to complete a two year period of National Service, are you trying to tell us that the majority of males in Britain were/are prior to 1959, hate filled, bigotted, unfeeling, morons with the honed killing skills of accomplished Ninja's (all this with only two years of training).

As usual your posts are ill informed, alarmist, hogwash.

I note that you 'saw this during the period of "National Service" in Britain" So did you actually complete your National Service and are your observations on the overall effects based on personal experience. If so how long, in terms of years (nearest decade will do, if the memories are too painful) did it take you to adjust back into normal society? If indeed you have managed to do that.

From previous posts of yours, I note that you think of people in terms of left-wing, populist stereotypes. Having done that your mind remains made up and you are simply not prepared to have any of your misconceptions challenged, irrespective of the facts or evidence presented to you.

By the way any reputable reference for the DNA claim, it should not be difficult to find if it was presented as forensic evidence at the Court Martial

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:50 AM

Most returned home merely fit, strong, self confident and cheerful, according to my Grandfather, a gentle man who was one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 04:27 AM

According to first reports, the young Iraqi was taken into the custody of the British soldiers. Subsequently he was found battered to death.
Traces of the mans DNA were found on weapons used by the soldiers as McGrath has pointed out.

Saw the soldiers on a TV report and my impression was that they had "got away with murder".

Army life brutalises young men. I saw this during the period of "National Service" in Britain.
Young men were taken from their home environment, and taught the killing skills,bigotry and hate.
Most returned home unfeeling morons, taking years to adjust back into normal society...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:28 AM

Thankfully for the accused Dianavan, in the UK, even under military codes of justice there still exists the presumption of innocence until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It would appear under your preferred scheme of things just to be accused is enough. Dianavan you would do better under the code of justice I support, than anyone else would under the code you seem to advocate.

The Court Martial of the seven men referred to in MGOH's post cost the British Taxpayer £10m, and many of those involved from the outset were of the opinion that there never was any case for these men to answer. Having followed the case at a distance I must admit I have never seen any reference to the blood sample taken from one of the screw recesses on one of the rifles. Witnesses were paid to lie, witnesses who were proven to have been nowhere near the place of the incident appeared to give evidence, witnesses admitted that the only reason they were there was because they were being paid to attend (£100 per day plus food and accommodation), none of these witnesses could identify ANY of the men charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 12:36 AM

From the link above: "So far the Royal Military Police have investigated 184 alleged offences in Iraq, 160 of which were completed without any further action being taken."

We may have given them democracy but we never promised justice!

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 06:24 PM

Missed that one. There was the case of seven paratroopers charged with killing an 18 year old boy which was thrown out by the judge - "Before directing the panel to clear the soldiers, Judge Blackett said he considered the investigation into the case had been "inadequate". (Apparently blood matching the dead man's DNA was found in a screw recess on one of the soldiers rifles.)

Here's a Times roundup of other trials in the pipeline.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 09:47 AM

Yesterday 3 British soldiers charged with offences against Iraquis were acquited.
The witnesses admitted lying.
They had been on 100 dollars a day expences and stood to gain a fortune in compensation.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 10:39 AM

Just joining the club Ake, after all you've never based a single post on anything that could construed as anything other than, how did you put it? Oh yes - dubious or non-existent evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 05 - 05:16 AM

My God Teribus!!...Changed days indeed when the "King of facts" is reduced to constructing scenarios based on dubious or non-existent evidence...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 01:42 PM

possible but not probable.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 01:42 PM

possinle but not probable.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 12:43 PM

Hey up, Foolestroupe - 18 Oct 05 - 08:24 PM

Glad you mentioned that bit about the Molotov cocktails being thrown at the Warrior APC outside that police station where our gallant lads were being supposed to have been held, but weren't, because the police/militiamen-posing-as-policemen had turned them over to their militia buddies.

Now, the Iraqi's are claiming that seven Iraqi's were killed during this operation, and you may have provided an explanation. You see not a single shot was fired by the British Troops present. Now harking back to the beautifully filmed scenes of the rather sparse crowd who were throwing stones (Palestinian Intafada Traditionalist Protesters Section of rent-a-crowd)), steel rods (Casual Opportunist section of same organisation) and Molotov Cocktails (Professional section) at that vehicle. One thing struck me - they weren't throwing all that accurately (well I suppose every team has to have a bad day) some missiles were falling short, others simply sailing straight over the target. Unfortunately the reporters said that the 'Tank' was surrounded so unless the typical rent-a-hysterical-mob crowd had eyes in the backs of their heads, or were keeping a very good look-out, there is a chance that some of those stones, steel bars and Molotov cocktails landed on some of their own side - 'friendly fire' sort of thing. We know it happens so it may not be outwith the bounds of possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 08:24 PM

"Oooops! Not any more!"

Well throwing molotov cocktails at a tank is now a friendly act, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 12:01 AM

McGrath said, "There has to be a suspicion about what the two arrested men were up to. Perhaps they were not engaged in some kind of dirty tricks operation, such as have frequently taken place in other conflict situations, but the fact that they were apparently members of the British Army is not sufficient in itself to eliminate such suspicions, and some kind of independent investigation would be appropriate."

The man in charge of that investigation was found dead, apparent suicide although he was due to go home in a couple of weeks.

"The pressures in Basra reached a new intensity in the last weeks of Captain Masters' life, when British forces found themselves increasingly engaged in action against Shia militias. Just a few weeks ago, troops faced local police heavily infiltrated by the militia and a violent crowd which, according to the British military, was also orchestrated by the militia."

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: GUEST,Johnnie Ralph
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:59 AM

British soldiers don't behave badly while on duty ? Can anyone give me an example ?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Oct 05 - 11:14 AM

McGrath,

Lack of valid information has never been a reason, on any topic, not to to pass judgement here on Mudcat. By all parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:34 PM

Maybe I should have made it clearer that what I was doing was demonstrate how the same story could be presented in a completely different way from the way that the media in my country have done.

As I commented in a later post, I don't think we have enough information to be able to come to any clear certainty as to what actually did happen, and why. And I don't think the media have either.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 05 - 06:29 AM

Dianavan applauds McGrath providing a link to the story and I agree with her. With a link it is always easier to see the spin posters here give to a story.

Teribus for instance writes disparagingly about the Guardian as a source for the initial version of the story when in fact the link shows that AP was the source.

McGrath for instance writes 'they break open the jail, and release 150 prisoners' where AP reported about one lone voice telling them that about 150 had 'fled' in the course of the action. 'Fled', 'freed' who cares about such details when a good story waits to be told.

Akenaton's spin: McGrath's version of events was widely reported in all the "quality" papers . No, it wasn't. McGrath's version you did praise so much was his own idiosyncratic version published in no quality paper.

Just BTW, of course for decades until quite recently, foreign soldiers in Germany (both sides of the wall) were not to be arrested by German police and not to be tried by German courts. This is quite normal for forces of occupation and even not unheard of for (officially) nonoccupying forces. No Russian (soldier in uniform or secret service without) in the countries behind the Iron curtain could be arrested by the local authorities.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 05:40 PM

How come it's only the socialist left-wing tosser's on this forum who are continually telling people to shut up

It isn't. As Paul Simon sang "A man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest" Or rather, we often see what we expect to see, whether we like it or not.

Similarly what is "blatently obvious" will differ according to what kind of expectations we are geared up to accept. Very few things in conflict situations are in fact "blatently obvious", if that means obvious to everyone. Very few things in life are really.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

In chronological order:

GUEST 03 Oct 05 - 09:56 AM - Somebody trampin' on your corns pal or do you own the site. This happens to be an open forum, please explain to me exactly what right you have to tell anybody what they can or cannot say. One question - How come it's only the socialist left-wing tosser's on this forum who are continually telling people to shut up, and then bleat on about repression - slight hint pal, "Awa and bile yer heid".

dianavan - 04 Oct 05 - 02:19 AM

The weapons in their possession were? Fact please not what Mr Pilger, in the process of creating a story supposed.

"Reminds me of Belfast." Oddly enough Dianavan same for me apart from the following difference, the crews in the cars then consisted of four men:
- A driver
- An Observer
- A Cameraman
- A gunner whose choice of weapon was entirely his own

What they were doing Dianavan was intelligence gathering, nothing more, nothing less. If you doubt that please explain why the Central Government in Baghdad, Central Command or the British Army would:
a) Decrease troop levels by more than 67%.
b) Then foment a civil war in their sector.

No doubt you will come up with a reason, but I don't think I'll swallow it.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraq Issues Warrant of British Soldiers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 03:54 PM

Not so much that I "want to use those dates", but that I think they are the relevant ones.

The question isn't whether or not Saddam was a murderous bastard, because pretty evidently he was, but whether the net effect of the invasion has been such as to justify it, in terms of the change effected from the situation which was in place in the period preceding the invasion.

From that point of view, assembling those figures, if it could be done, and if someone wants to attempt to do it, or can dig up some existing reliable figures, would be a neutral operation. "Reliable" - there's likely to be the rub...