Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:25 AM

Agggghhhhhh
(The real) Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: melodeonboy
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:59 AM

Could they, perchance, be one and the same person??????!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:47 AM

I'm confused. Why is the above from Richard Bridge signed Jim Carrol? :-S

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:10 AM

Sorry, I didn't think that there was anything I needed to answer.

"would you apply the same criterion to painting, acting, sculpting, opera, jazz (or even being an electrician)....... if not, why not?"

The case of an electrician is an obviosity (or so would a driving licence be). Some activities require things to be done in particular ways for safety reasons.


Painting - (I assume you mean picture painting not house-painting) - I'd let anybody do it any time for anyone - I am wholly uninterested in it. Indeed every so often one does see exhibitions and I think "Why is this here?", but if someone wants to put thier piece up, whynot? Indeed if one applied "standards" there would be large swathes of artists whose visions were it seems wholly unaccompanied by any standards of draftsmanship or depictive ability, and whose work was rejected and condemned by the established of their days, but are now hailed as genius.

Acting - again I don't give a damn, but what I have seen of amateur dramatics again shows that if someone wants to participate they are permitted and encouraged. My late wife used to run the youth section of an Amdram thing and I recall two young wannabee actors (actually they were there becase the girl/boy ratio was such that it was like shooting fish in a barrel) who were dyslexic. Ordinary standards of "read this and recite it" would wholly have excluded them. One turned out to be a gifted comic who stopped one musical he appeared in so that the audience could laugh themseles nearly sick, adn the other won a best actor award at a Duncan Rand festival for a sinister and subtle portrayal of a yong hoodlum (adjudicator's words, pretty closely).

Sculpting - again I don't give a damn, but the whole modern sculpture movement depends on rejecting the "greek statue" approach and does not I think depend on technical ability but upon some vision (that I wholly fail to see).

Opera - its function is the bel canto. In that it differs from folk music. But if one applied standards of appearance or acting ability to opera singers many would fail.

Jazz - in general today technique seems to be much admired, but do you remember the experimental jazz of teh 60s? It was impossible to discern melody or rhythm, and I certainly would - if asked "is this music" have answered "No" - but in retrospect it is (in parts) hailed as of excellence. Was it not said of Charlie Bird Parker that if one deconstructs his work much of it is out of time and out of key?

The fact of the matter is that folk song is different. It is not just history (although I am keen to know if the historical element - whereas many others are not). It is not just performance. It is the outlet of the community, and in fact you geld it if you do not take it (like Cromwell's portrait) "warts and all". Or, to put it another way, "Let the people sing".


"Is the singing of folk songs an inferior pursuit to all of these?"
No. But it is different and it does not depend on "standards". If it did, and one had to smile like a beauty queen, dress from Brooks Brothers, intone like Pavarotti (who, incidentally, I think was often sharp), enunciate like John Gielgud, emote like Nirvana, it would not be folk song.


"I believe that it lies within the abilities of most people to sing - as long as they are prepared to put in the time and effort."

Some can sing better than others. I would kill for John Barden's golden tonsils or Ian Bruce's driving ring to the voice. But I do what I can with what I ahve got and mostly I think I have found ways. But I know one snooty bitch whowhen running a song session will call at least two morons before me because they have been members for longer - and she alleges I sing through my nose. Not her call My singing. I'll do it how I want (and I am shedloads bette than she is anyway, much as I disapprove of self aggrandisement). But it's not my call or yours or hers to say that someone may not sing. It intrinsically involves placing the decider in a position of power over the singer, which power may be wrongly used.




"'Superior', 'judgement' and 'exclude' are all loaded words that only serve to avoid the main issue."

THe are words of disapproval in this context - but they are the right ones. You, like that bitch, are putting yourself forward as the arbiter - and that can only be on the basis that you know better (which you may, but that's for someone else to say, not you). What you exercise is undoubtedly judgment. And the consequence is that you plan to and do exclude those who do not do it your way. You in particular have paid your dues, and I value what I know of your work, but it is so long since you have walked in the shoes of someone with less history that I think you have forgotten the trepidation involved when one starts. Your judgment, and it is the only word I can think of for it, does shut others out, and thereby wounds their feelings.

"Nobody, as far as I can see, is attempting to "sit in judgment on" or be "superior to" or "exclude" anybody - we are simply asking that a performer reaches a certain (not particularly high) standard before they sing in public - what is wrong with that?"

It is internally self-contradictory. You will bar those of whom you do not approve.


"For me this whole question revolves around a piece of contempt that has plagued the revival from the word go - "it takes no effort, thought or talent to sing folk songs". Do you believe this?"

What an aunt Sally! The better you are, the better you are - although the polish should not replace the content.

"If the answer is 'no', why is it unreasonable to expect that a new singer first puts in the effort, thought and time in order to develop their talents to the level where we can all sit back and enjoy their singing?"   

I would accept "wish". The word "expect" is wrong. In the light of what you say about the standards of young singers these days (yes, that is me putting up an aunt Sally too, but you see how it looks) plainly you do not in fact expect any such thing. You expect that many will NOT do the things you wish they would. Me too, but I don't say that I have any right to stop them doing as they do. You in fact go further than expecting. You seek to impose your view.

"Again I ask, don't we owe at least that much to to the people who made and passed down the songs."- asked and answered.


"Folk song has yet to find its place in the sun in Britain, it will never get that place without the work being put in."

Actually I think it did, probably in about the early or mid 60s (when I was not interested, far too keen on rock then) one it had sloughed off the fascination with Americana and we ahd got the Young Tradition and Martin Carthy etc getting into English folk song. Now Martin Carthy's work was always technically excellent, but if you listen critically to the first Young Tradition album, it would not be cmmercially released today without a lot of technical cleaning up - ragged beats, wobbly pitch, Peter Bellamy missing falling closing notes time and again, verses omitted from well known songs.

It wasn't the work that made it great then, and it isn't "standards" that make it marginal today. As I said, listen to karaoke nights, plenty of dross there and words on a TV screen, but thronged.

It would be so nice if we were all bettter than we are. But it does no good to dump on people because it was better in your day.

Sorry, Jim. I admire you and what you have done. But there are other judges or wannabee judges who do not merit the same respect, and if you take the power to judge so will they.






And as for you Al - as a good socialist I utterly condemn your view that the working class cannot achieve academic excellence, or that it ought not to interest them. Folk song is set in and springs from the foundation of what made teh working class. Remove it and they are one step closer to rootlessness, altough we all need our roots and to knwo them. I wish I could sing and play like you, but I wish you thought like me!


Sorry to go on so long.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

But surely wanting to on it's own isn't enough is it WLD? It should be accepted that those who want to sing should be allowed to but somewhere along the line they will want to be good as well won't they? They should want to please other people shouln't they? OK - they may do it just to please themeselves but there is a word for someone who uses self-satisfaction extensively isn't there? :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:24 AM

We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round.[quote Wld]
so why havent the whole population of Ireland, pissed off?why is it that in Ireland, traditional music is appreciated.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:16 AM

well i don't agree.

Its the human dimension and the absence of 'standards' (sounds like a bloody OFSTED report!) that make it edgy and worthwhile and something dufferent from all those other middle class pools of iniquity and mediocrity that get all the arts council grants.

When someone's shite, they look for the escape clause in reality and sure enough they wash on the shores of the folk club. Then true enough you get the nightmare scenarios where you have ask them to piss off and torment someone else - eventually.

the whole bloody point of folkmusic though, is that its made by people who couldn't stick to four beats in a bar if their life depended on it.

And yes, I DO think that 'wanting to' is important. In fact I think if you don't wake up every morning wanting to do folkmusic (even if life has other activities mapped out for you) how the hell do you hope to hit the ground running when you do stand up there to sing.

And I love that bit:-

if we lose people ...tough!

We have lost people! - the entire population of england has pissed off whilst these clever sods dig up some rubbish from the library at Cecil Sharp house, run it up the flagpole and expect salutes all round.

Folk music without the folk is nonsense. And live with it - a lot of 'em can't sing for toffee! But its still worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:11 AM

I can't remember, Bryan, sorry:-( It was on one such discussion when I mentioned that I told people to expect anything on a singers that someone told me I was not doing a good job of selling the club! If I could remember I would tell you but it is too far back to look up now.

You have not said where and how I misrepresented you yet. I suppose paying a compliment that went a little far is misrepresentation to a certain extent but surely that is not what you are refering to is it?

Jim - You are right. To perform properly you do need to achieve a minimum standard and if all performances at folk clubs fell below that then I would be 100% behind you in saying that poor performance will kill off folk clubs. However (there's always one of them isn't there:-) ) There is only a very small proportion of people at our club who fall below it. I can honestly say that amongst the dozens and dozens of people who have sung at our club only two have fallen well under. There are a number who will also sing self penned angst driven dirges and other stuff that is far from my cup of Earl Grey but they do, at least, perform them well.

Funny thing is that, of late, we have been getting more people at singers nights than on some of the guest nights! And I would say that over half the audience changes between the two. I would suspect that we get far more Critics Group on guest nights and far more Muriels on singers but I have not yet confirmed that theory!

Anyway, point is, I find myself in the position of agreeing with you entirely about the minimum standard but running a club that does offer a bit of flexibility for the untrained. Maybe our singers nights are more like workshops? They are certainly very informal and people can either 'Take the stage' (Well, empty bit of carpet) or perform from where they sit. We chat a lot and have offered help and advice to a number of people. Some ignore it. Some improve. None have, as yet, taken offense. Well, maybe the guy with the electric guitar turned up too loud took the huff when told to turn it down. But even he returned a couple of weeks later:-)

At the end of the day some clubs run for years. New ones open. Old ones close. All for different reasons. The standard of performance may have a lot to do with it but the style of the club, it's organisers and guests play a part. More importantly, it's audience decide it's fate in the end.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:47 AM

Spot on Jim - is there anything else to say - I doubt it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:36 AM

good points Jim.
workshops are an excellent idea.
I notice Lewes Folk Club,are one of the few clubs that do this.
recording oneself,is a way that singers can learn to improve.
in my opinion workshops are useful for singers/ musicians to improve their technique,a good starting point.
it is debatable whether singing with interpretation/ feeling can be taught,[imo]it can to some extent.
of course all singers performances will vary every time.
Pat Mckenzie made a very valid point[some months ago]about a singers interpretation of Lord Randall,how the traveller singer was putting all her feelings about being settled into the song she was singing.
singing is about expressing[whats happened to you] and I am not sure that can be taught.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:37 AM

I hung on to see if there were any answers to the questions I asked Bryan and Richard in my last few postings - there weren't of course, and I should have known better than to expect any.
I'll have to assume that the Lewes Club would turn a large proportion of their evening over to non-singers, after all isn't that "what it's all about".
Similarly, I'll have to take it as read that Richard believes folk song to be inferior to all the other preforming arts I mentioned (or maybe that should be 'activities' - for the benefit of those who "reach for their gun at the mention of the word 'art'"). In the absence of information to the contrary, I'll also have to assume that he feels he owes nothing to the people who have taken the trouble to keep our folk songs alive and pass them on to us.
Incidentally Richard, whether we care to admit it or not, we all exercise judgement on other singers "That was a nice piece of singing", "She could have done this/that to it to make it work better", "That accompaniment was too loud", "Jesus, where did he get that crappy/superb text?.....". It's called having taste, and we'd stop thinking and feeling without it. Whether and how we give voice to that taste is a debatable point, but lets not pretend we don't have good/bad opinions on others' performances.
So if we apply standards we lose people - tough - if it means we improve our clubs maybe that's not altogether a bad thing. Do we really need people who are going to 'take their ball home' if somebody comments critically on their singing, or suggests that it might be necessary to hold a tune or learn the words before they stand up in front of an audience?
It's threads like this that make me realise how much we have lost over the last few decades. For all the shite thrown at MacColl and Seeger and their 'influencees', they really did 'bake exceedingly good cakes'. I never failed to come away from one of their evenings without my head and my ears buzzing with well researched (or thoughtfully written), excellently sung songs - all worked on in advance and brought up to a (at the very least) presentable standard. Admittedly, they didn't turn their clubs over to non-singers - they were selfish bastards like that, but, in order to make up for their selfishness, they did establish, help set up or or encourage the setting up of workshops to bring on new singers. I can't recall being involved with a club since the the late sixties which hasn't either organised a singers workshop or had one on hand if required.
The alternative here seems to be that we throw the clubs open to any 'Florence Foster Jenkins' who turns up "wanting to sing". After all, what does it matter if the resident evenings are made abysmal with poor singing; there'll be a guest along in a couple of weeks to pick up the pieces.
All this convinces me that it is not so much a case of 'dropping the baton', but more a competition to see how far into the ditch you can throw it.
It seems to me that unless standards are applied to improve the performances and the image of folk song at the clubs, where it matters the most, it will (deservedly) continue to have the piss taken out of it, will remain as a fifth-rate activity, and will die as a performing art (sorry - activity). Sure, it will survive in archives such as the V.W.M.L. and The National Sound Archive; it might gather a bit of dust there, but hopefully in a few decades time somebody might come along with a duster, clean it up and realise what a diamond we've thrown away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:38 PM

Bring back Avril Betts

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:57 PM

The Villan

Unless Bryan thought you were saying he had big breasts or that the audience were well blessed.

Didn't realise you'd been to our club, Villan.

Come on Dave. Tell us who you were getting at in your post of 23 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM. I need an ally.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

Well, call me old fashioned but i think its a lapse of etiquette when someone lets out a loud smelly fart, says 'better out than in!', sniggers, and then slaps you on the back in an over familiar manner.

How will we ever attract fragrant people like mary Archer into folk clubs, with behaviour like that. We have mudcatters who meet people like that, and her very talented husband. What a first it would be if Jefrey would write us a folksong!

I think this is where tradtional folk music could learn something from Leonard Cohen, who never does anything coarse or unpleasant in public - in fact he always looks very nicely turned out.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:23 PM

And I just posted 444 - two thirds of the way to 666. How good is that for Haloween:-) I am at a party where I am a pirate, Mrs el Gnome is a mad woman (nothing new there...) and we have various moths, scary dolls, wizards, witches and even a snake charmer!

Just off to sup some more green goblin.

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:19 PM

How can you be sure that the audience gets good value if you've never heard the person you put on? And surely, if you put four complete unknowns on, there is a danger of getting four completely crap spots. Unlikely, I would hope, but it is there.

We can't, Barbara. That is what makes running our folk club so exciting:-) If I knew what was going to happen every week I probably would not turn up!

More seriously - we generaly know who is going to provide support - Just like at your place. And like your club we always assume that anyone asking for a support spot is going to be good. On the open nights we do, as you suggest, leave it open to anyone to perform. It sounds like our clubs are run on a very similar basis - Where abouts are you so I can all in when passing? :-)

As to me sounding sarcastic - how can anyone deduce that from the written word? I realy need to know!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Dave eG,
I'm curious - there seems to be a fundamental problem with two of your statements above:

"On a guest night we have decided that we will only put 4 support spots on. This is to ensure that the guest gets a fair crack and that the audience who have paid to see them gets good value...

When anyone new arrives in the club on a guest night they are asked if they perform and if so would they like to do a support spot."

How can you be sure that the audience gets good value if you've never heard the person you put on? And surely, if you put four complete unknowns on, there is a danger of getting four completely crap spots. Unlikely, I would hope, but it is there.

I am not trying to be confrontational here - I run a club, but on guest nights, the support spots (four, like yours) are pre-arranged, and I would only change that if the person arriving unexpectedly was known to me or others in the club to be of a sufficient standard to be good value to the paying audience. I am not saying that all our support spots are brilliant, but they are known to be capable to the point of not embarassing themselves, the club or the audience. And I do believe that poor performers are embarassing to the audience as well, and that may be part of what drives them away.

Our open nights are just that - open to anyone to perform, even if they are of a poor standard. In my opinion, it is up to the MC to make the atmosphere such that everyone enjoys themselves whatever the performances are, although that would probably not be possible long-term with a majority of poor performers.

By the way, I thought you were being sarcastic to The Snail as well. I now take your word for it that you weren't intending to be. :-)

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Girl Friday as a Catfish
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

It seems that Amber has opened a huge can of worms on which shoals of mudcatfish have bitten. The length of this thread rivals that of TDL's,and in only a month or so!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:29 PM

What about good folking manners, Pete:-D

Ahhhhh - OK. I understand. You think I was being sarcastic? Well, honestly, I wasn't. I was complimenting you on your efficiency and ability to achieve what I have been unable to do. I don't know how my tone can come over as sarcastic in written word but, hey, who am I to judge. I am very rarely sarcastic but should I ever lapse I will always use emoticons to indicate I may be saying something other than what is written.

The Villan seems pretty much to have got the gist. I still don't know where I misrepresented you.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

You either have good manners....or you don't....

Folk music has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:07 PM

>>You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time <<

That sounds very complimentary to me Dave.

I think Bryan has got the wrong end of the stick and in all honesty, you should both stop posting about each other as that is getting very close to flaming which is not really acceptable.

Unless Bryan thought you were saying he had big breasts or that the audience were well blessed. <

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM

OK Dave, one last pull.

It is the "and seem to be able to get it right all the time" part that is particularly annoying. Since you only know what happens at our club from what I have said the implication is that I am claiming that we "get it right all the time". I make no such claim. We have a policy and a philosophy which we try to implement as best we can. I think we do quite well but nobody is perfect. Your tone comes over as sarcastic and paints me as arrogant.

That is what I found obnoxious.

At least I am not alone. I wonder who it was you were getting at in your post of 23 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM when you said "another mudcat member who now seems to believe that Swinton Folk Club is the worst in the world".

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:57 PM

I keep forgetting things - Like Columbo on the TV:-)

If, at the start of the night, we have four well practiced performers and my earlier theoretical Muriel, I have no qualms about asking the for well practiced ones. Muriel, in one or two different guises, has never complained and is quite happy to carry on performing on a singers night. Everyone is happy. No problem.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Or maybe. to make matters perfectly clear I should re-state our policy.

1. On a singers night everyone who wants to perform gets on.

2. On a guest night we have decided that we will only put 4 support spots on. 2 in the first half and 2 in the second. This is to ensure that the guest gets a fair crack and that the audience who have paid to see them gets good value.

3. In the event that the 4 spots are taken and someone asks if they can perform we have to decline them purely on the grounds that there is no time.

5. When anyone new arrives in the club on a guest night they are asked if they perform and if so would they like to do a support spot.

6. If more than four new people arrive it is on a first come first served basis except when someone has phoned in advance - as has happened.

Hope this makes it clear. I have never said we do anything different.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

Oh - BTW - I have never insisted that our policy is to exclude newcomers. Where on earth did you get that idea? Can you show me where I said it or is this, heaven forbid, some sort of misrepresentation? :-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM

I have read and re-read them Bryan. I still don't undertand why you are accusing me of misrepresenting you. If you cannot explain it to me can someone else please?

At least give me a clue as to what is obnoxious about You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time and tell me how If I have to explain what is obnoxious about that remark, I don't think I'll ever get through to you. fits in with your record on tollerance.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Nice post Mr Cringe. It's interesting to find that the policy at Swinton is actually very much the same as ours despite el Gnomo's insistence otherwise.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:25 PM

Mr Gnome, if I have to explain what I actually said rather than what you think I said every time, we'll never get anywhere. Please go back and read all my posts.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM

Thanks, SC. Can I give you the tenner later. I'm a bit skint at the mo...

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:36 PM

In support of the esteemed Senor El Gnomo, can I add my tuppence in that when Pip Radish and I visited his folk club on the night that Captain Birdseye was strutting his enjoyable stuff, both Pip and I (at least one of whom was sporting a most unseemly tank top), despite being untried, untested outsiders on a guest night, were offered the opportunity to cough our way through a tune. Pip rose to the challenge admirably, whilst I declined, recognising that whilst I might get away with my harmonically-challenged qwarbling for one short song at a singaround, I wouldn't wish to abuse my hosts' generosity by inflicting my shortcomings on their paying public.

As a result of many factors, but not least my timely self-censorship, a grand night was had by all. As a member of the listening public and an avid self-censor, I welcome such reciprocal self-restraint in others of my bruisingly limited ability. I don't particularly think it's the job of the club to impose a musical omerta on the impoverished of tunefulness but I do believe a little bit of insight into one's own strengths and deficits goes a long way.

In essense, had I sung in response to Dave's kind invitiation, I would have been the one with the bad manners.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM

I personally think that Folk Club manners should really be called Folk Club aims & rules.

Each venue decides what they expect from an evening and should make that very clear at the start of the evening and certainly to newcomers. Better still, if you have a website, put it on there also (that way people who are coming along for the first time, know what to expect). Put posters up on the walls of the venue stating the rules & aims.

We state what our requirements are on our website and on the front of the diary which is handed out at each event. The MC also mentions it at the start of the evening.

Above all enforce it.

I had a young couple come along one night, who as the night wore on, started to get louder and louder, to the point where they were distracting people in the room. I walked quitely over to them and explained the situation. They decided in a nice way, that they didn't like having to be quite, so they discretely left, shook hands with me and have never been back. That's life. It would have been nice if they had come back, but I would rather have the 98% of the audience happy, than bowing down to the minority.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Calm Voice
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

I went to a concert at a festival. Two performers on stage. One of them read his newspaper while the other performed. The one who was reading immediately went down in my estimation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

Can I address each of your points by number please, Bryan. Saves time all round. I am refering to your post directly adressed to me and timed at 10:08 today.

1. That is indeed what I wrote. How does it mangle anything you had previously said?

2. No, I am not including Jim. 'We' refers to Swinton Folk Club.

3. Pointless considering point 2 above.

4. Quite true. I accept that you did not say that you get everyone all the time. What you actualy said on 26 October at 8:56AM, as an unnamed guest, was I was the MC last night when John Kirkpatrick was the guest. It took a bit of organising but I managed to get everybody on for a floorspot that wanted one. Apologies for assuming that you can do the same thing every night. It does raise a question if you cannot, though. How do you get round not being able to fit everyone on those occasions when there are too many?

5. If 'you seem particularly well blessed at your club' is an obnoxious insult then I welcome such insults with open arms. When people behave obnoxiously towards me I usualy expect things like 'Fuck off you short arsed git' or 'Stick that fucking squeeze box up your arse'. Maybe in Lewes people are more gentile and behave obnoxiously in a way I don't understand. Please enlighten me:-)

Now, back to my original point. Can you tell me where I have misquoted you, other than the slight misunderstanding I have apologised for in point 4. What I should have said, although to me this sounds more insulting than the first, is "You are very lucky at your club in that you sometimes manage to get everyone on, even on guest nights. I have never achieved that." Can you also tell me why, as a people person, your posts to me are seemingly confrontational while all I have done is said good things about your organisational skills?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: stormalong
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:17 AM

This thread seems to have drifted from manners to who should or shouldn't be asked to perform...

I've very rarely encountered bad manners in a folk club. In one instance a guest appeared only for his own slot and spent the rest of the time outside, but he was essentially a pub entertainer rather than a folkie, so that may be down to culture rather than intentional rudeness. The same may be true of those who chat too much while others are singing, but I do agree with an earlier post which suggested that it's the responsibility of the singer to dominate the room, although that's easier to do with a loud voice or a big squeeze box.

As regards who should or shouldn't be called on to sing, it's good to have singaround nights where everyone gets an equal chance, but on guest nights a good MC will exercise some discretion after, ideally, giving everyone at least one opportunity to sing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:06 AM

Some performances ARE shite, you cannot get away from that, and that is what I was referring to. Mind you, some human beings are shite too, I can name names if you want....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

Hello Snail.

My my, how easy it is to jump to silly conclusions. You have adequetly demonstated that to have a reasoned argument with yourself is fairly pointless.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

Referring to your fellow human beings as "shite" suggests you don't like them very much.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

Sorry???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:52 AM

Jim, for evidence to support my comment that "I get the impression that some of the negative views on this thread come from people who don't like people very much." please see Silas's last post.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

Tell you what Mr Snail, let me know where your club is and I'll send all the shite your way and see how you feel then...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM

I'd like to pick up on something Captain Birdseye said at the end of one his last posts.

I can't sing to save my life - I know that - and nothing (other than a massive bribe) would induce me to get up in front of a paying audience and sing, because I'm a long way from good enough. But that doesn't stop me having a go in the anything-goes-pub-singaround environment, and I'm rarely the worse singer there.

It's the issue of reading from a sheet/score/whatever that I find interesting. Due to a combination of a fairly good memory and sheer bloody-mindedness I tend to learn everything I play or sing; this isn't snobbishness, because I honestly don't go puce green with rage everytime I see the same singers reading off lyrics/chords sheets. But I've found that - for me,anyway - reading/glancing/staring at any sort of sheet music or lyrics while I'm trying to sing, usually has an inhibiting effect that's harder to break than actually learning the song in the first place.

The one terrifying point about doing it this way, though, is that when your mind does go blank, and the words have disappeared like frost in strong sunlight - there's no escape route, other than singing another verse, or even another song. But - of course - just try remembering one.

Glad I'm a rank amateur.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

I'm sorry David el Gnomo but you mangling of what I said was so transparent that I assumed it was deliberate and needed no explanation so, if you insist -

There is no suggestion or even any justification in Jim's argument, or my earlier ones for that matter, for excluding anyone based on not having seen them or fear that they would be a 'bad egg'.

If we haven't seen someone before, all we know about them is that they want to perform. According to Jim, to give them a floorspot on that basis would be crass. We have to be sure that they have put in the necessary practice and achieved the right standard. How we are supposed to know that remains unclear.

What we are saying is that there are certain performers who, for the sake of the 'wider picture' should be restricted to singers nights etc. until such a time as they get to this very easily achieved minimum standard.

Are you including Jim in that "we"? It is not what he is saying. What he actually said was -

The only concession to standards seems to be that the 'practicers' are hidden away in the cupboard when the guests arrive and are only allowed to strut their stuff on residents nights - how ******* patronising can you get!

I don't think he approves of your policy. I think he's telling you that you are ******* patronising.

Back to you -
You are very lucky at your club in that, somehow, you manage to get everyone on all the time, even on guest nights.

Never said anything of the sort. Here is an example of what I have said -

What actually tends to happen on busy guest nights when we can't get everybody on is that residents and regulars hold back and priority goes to visitors some of whom we may never have heard before.

I have said similar things on previous threads.

You again -

As I said earlier - You seem to be particularly well blessed at your club and seem to be able to get it right all the time.

If I have to explain what is obnoxious about that remark, I don't think I'll ever get through to you.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:32 AM

DaveS

You are fortunate Snail,

Then I'll just have to accept that I'm fortunate. In my experience, the vast majority of people who want to sing or play can; many are good; a few are excellent and one or two get bookings on the strength of a floorspot. The duds are rare. I note that you have to go back 30 years for your example and Jim 40. They are not the basis for our poliy on who can or cannot sing.

If someone I don't know turns up and expresses a desire to sing I can't say "No. I have no way of knowing if you are any good and I can't take the risk of putting you on in front of a paying audience." I and the audience would have missed many excellent performances if I had done so. Perhaps we would have missed a few poor ones as well but the alternative is to stick to the same safe and known performers.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM

Sorry to go on about this Bryan but in a couple of posts now (yesterday - 1255 and 1330) you allude to me misrepresenting you and then post something completely beyond my unerstanding 'for my benefit'. Would you please do me the courtesy of explaining exactly how I have misquoted you and why the quote you gave at 1330 is for my benefit.

I realy am trying to be positive here but it is getting very difficult in the face of hints and allegations. Us Gnomes are not known for subtlety or getting hints. Tell is at it is so we can all understand :-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:46 AM

its when they wipe their bum on the raffle tickets before throwing them at you, then you have to worry.......

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:40 AM

You are fortunate Snail, and I think we help run similar clubs, usually the lesser the talent the greater the aggression if this particular person is refused a spot.
I may have mentioned this elsewhere but at a club I help run some thirty odd years ago we had a lady, who was a good friend of us all, who turned up one week with her guitar. Naturally we gave her a spot and it was quite obvious to all, except her, that she had nowhere near mastered her instrument. She came a few months later with her guitar and the results were the same; this became more frequent until members of the audience began complaining to us. So on one occasion she was deliberately passed over for a turn; rather than sending out the message she was waiting for me to open up the next week so that she would be sure of a spot, I explained that we had a guest but I'd see what I could do thinking that I was on pretty safe ground. The guest didn't turn up but I still missed her out and at the end of the night she demanded to know why and I had to explain as gently and politely as I could that she was nowhere near the standard to play in public where an audience is paying good money and expects something good in return. She really wwent off on one at me saying how far ahead of unaccompnied singers she was and much better guitarist than some of the bluesmen (we had two of the best in the North as regulars) who "just strum" she was. Plus the last time that she played at our club the room was dark and she couldn't see the notes.
After that, plus a letter to my home from her husband saying pretty well the same thing only in a more temperate manner, she never came back to the club and certainly never spoke to me again prior to me leaving the area.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:14 AM

The great debate rages on and on, as it has for years. Folk club manners is at the heart of it. Being very adult, polite, friendly and supportive, we duly applaud everyone who has the bottle to stand up and sing in front of an audience. Anyone who has done it will testify to the buzz - that's what gets you up there in the first place, and that's what ensures you return for more.

Being able to distinguish between polite and enthusiastic applause is (for some) the difficult bit. If folks displayed their true feelings and refused to acknowledge something they know to be truly awful by not applauding, or by reacting in a similar way to that of football fans in response to a lousy offside call, then the poor performer would soon get the message.

Is that what we want for our community? Maybe we should reach out for perfection - root out the weakest performers and show them the door; we should raise the minimum standard level and apply some points system for determining position in folk league tables?

Way to go .... Hmmm

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

Good Grief! I can't keep up. Thanks for the breath of fresh air, Richard and thanks Captain Birdseye for the comments about MCing. I'm not sure that I'm very good at it but the only way to learn is by getting up and doing it. It's not something you can practice alone at home.

I don't think I have the energy to go through every point but since Jim seems to think I've insulted him, I'd better reply to that -

I can't speak for those who wish to see standards established at the clubs, but personally I find this (once again – from you on this thread) deeply insulting. Can you please tell us what has led you to this extraordinary conclusion?

All the talk about "jumping" on people, all the loathing poored out by some people for those not seen to come up to the standard. Your own attitude is, to say the least, unsympathetic. The woman you described sounds as if she had mental health problems. If she has ever been to Lewes, she must have radically changed her behaviour because I've never encountered anyone like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: trevek
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:34 AM

I don't really have a problem with people using word sheets as long as they know the song already and it isn't just th first time they've sung it. After all, would you go and listen to the London Philharmonic and complain that all the string section have the dots in front of them.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 07:09 AM

Richard, you are asking; 'Who are we to sit in judgement'. You may as well ask, "Martin Carthy, who does he think he is, giving master classes, what does he know". Some of us do KNOW a bad performance when we hear it.

Well, we, or at least I, am someone who has been involved in folk music for many years and this does help, but it does not take a genius to recognise a poor singer. However, poor singers can improve if they are prepared to practice, practice, practice, but some, sadly, don't. Some will not accept and constuctive critisism or advise and some, no matter how hard they try just cannot sing.

You seem to think that the Folk Club is just for singers, it isn't. Most of the audience is made up of listners, not performers and it is not fair on them to allow rubbish turns who can't be bothered to do any preperation to inflict their personal egos on them.