Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Bru
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:40 PM

Actually, Silas, I've found that - being one of the less than brilliant singers - it's shorter notes I need to stick to.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:33 PM

He's pitched the tune so it goes off the *bottom* of his range, which is an unusual error to make - having a couple of words of every verse in a toneless gravelly mumble is a bit trying. Apart from that I don't think his pitching is that bad - I've heard much worse.

When he started consulting his hand I was wondering how small his writing could possibly be, but it only seemed to be the "To Norrowa!" verse that he had trouble remembering.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:32 PM

I thought he was OK, Richard. Bit ambitious in his choice of material maybe but at least he is practicing:-) I would take some convincing to give him two songs of that length during at the Royal Albet Hall though.

He would be welcome at one singers nights. Of course the big advantage of YouTube is that one can fast forward or stop part way. Not that I did of course...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:16 PM

If you are not too brilliant at singing, and with the best will in the world, he wasn't, it is probably better to stick to slightly shorter songs.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:14 PM

Didn't you love the way the unaccompanied singer had words on the palm of his hand?

Come on, he was not that bad if you gave him a chance to get going, and his pitch was fairly consistent in places.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:59 AM

I `ad that Walkabouts Verse in my cab the other day. `e sat in there, quite nonchallant, with `is little book engrossed in something or the other, no doubt dreaming up some poem or whatever.
I said, "`ere Walkabouts, I aint seen you on that Mudcat recently, `specially that one about bad manners, although its gorn adrift and its more like bad attitudes, but I reckon its right up your street."
`e said, " Nah, Jim. If you notice its now up in the eight `undreds. I`ll put my oar in just after nine `undred and ninety nine and collect the Jackpot!!"

Whaddam I like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

Sorry Richard, we are on our way to diable your flash player on your PC. You know it makwes sense.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:41 AM

Actually I think I may have found something I might request be taken elsewhere.

An interesting but flawed experiment...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:37 AM

God that was painful!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:23 AM

A man I would not ban

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 11:05 AM

"(where did the jackboots fit in before btw?)"


Its a Godwinism, don't really know if it applies to Mudcat, its more a usenet thing.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Generally I get more irritated by bland, sweetly-pretty renditions of familiar material than I do by outright incompetence; incompetent performances are often funny (cruel, I know) and they don't usually go on very long. As Bryan said, there aren't that many really incompetent singers who want to sing.

What I do find a bit trying is when a fairly high level of incompetence (say, for example, singing off-pitch, forgetting the tune, playing the wrong chords...) is combined with a blissful conviction of outstanding talent and a puppyish eagerness to share it with the room as often as possible. Someone like that can be a menace in a "jump-in-when-you're-ready" session - they're *always* ready. I think if I ever ran into someone like that, I'd be very tempted to retire to the back room and sing some songs in there with all the other refugees from the main room. Or something along those lines.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:45 AM

Very good points, Silas (where did the jackboots fit in before btw?)

I think I may go one step further and say that even the people who are incapable of playing or singing should be allowed to vent their artistic tendancies, if they have them. Just occasionaly though - and in the right circumstances.

If they abuse that offer often though you may find me in the bar:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:30 AM

Hmm, nearly 800 posts on, and I think you've nailed it. Not that it'll be the end of the thread; I fear this one will run and run until it disappears up its own fundament.
Ah, why don't we ask WalkaboutsVerse what he thinks? ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

I think the situation is this.

No one has to have a perfect voice or have to be able to play well.

Anyone can 'have a go' as it were. However, if a song is worth singing, why not do it justice and actually learn it, and learn it as well as you can before 'going public'?

Some people will have to accept that they just can't sing or play, its tough, but it is a fact. Some people will make significant improvements to their performances with practice and experience,some people will not bother to practice.

If someone is incapable, sadly, of playing or singing, then they should not inflict their shortcomings on the rest of us, similarly, if someone is too lazy to practice, then they should also be discoraged from performing.

Thats it really.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:57 AM

Thanks, Nick. The one you mention is another perfect example of the type of act I am trying to describe. Hopefuly next year the improvement will be noticeable but if not I think some of our regulars, and a few of the non-folky pub goers may get a bit disgruntled! Nothing at all wrong with 'having a go' provided that whoever it is knows when to stop:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:56 AM

WE ACCEPT YOU NICK!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 09:29 AM

>>But how does it relate to the people who Jim and the Captain would say should not sing or play?

One of the difficulties that I have - and so others also may have - is to know what people mean. If your local singaround happened to regularly have (say) Martin Carthy, Stefan Grossman, John Etheridge, Martin Simpson and John Renbourn playing they would probably have a very different set of expectations of a general standard than many other places. The reason I put an example up is that it is representative of a standard that I am used to hearing around where I live in places I go to. It happened to be at a gig in a pub but I'd do the same sort of stuff on a Wednesday down the pub. The fiddle playing is higher than most but there are some decent fiddlers I bump into around the area.

I'm not sure where other people are putting their benchmark for people who should or should not play. If it was set as high as the fiddle playing then that is one thing - if it's set at the level I sing at and play guitar that's another. The thing is that I don't know what people are saying is an acceptable standard - I think the two things I put up are acceptable but others may disagree.

I play and sing at a number of pubs/sessions/singarounds where there are many better singers than me; I come across a lot of people in pubs and singarounds and sessions who are of a similar or higher standard to me on a guitar. I'd just be interested to know what people mean by 'an acceptable standard' - we might all be assuming that others are talking about a lower standard than we think.

Now it's possible that someone may come and listen to what I put up and say "well I wouldn't accept that in my club/singaround or whatever" and we'd know where they set the standard where they are. It's just to try and make it something tangible.

I could as easily put up some unaccompanied singing or different things to get an idea of what sort of common norm we are talking about.

I went to a thing this week and there was a truly terrible singer. He's funny to hear once (I'm unsure whether unintentionally or becuase he likes being the centre of attention - and no it wasn't WAV) but good grief I'd be off to the bar (probably at a different pub) if I had to put up with him again.

As Dave said I was at Swinton recently and I've pm'd him about someone who was there who had a negative reaction from the others in the pub but luckily it wasn't a regular! But the standard there was decent generally.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM

I'm not clear what you are suggesting Nick, as to standards. Neither of the bits you linked to are within my main preferences, but both are clearly of a standard that would have "stopped the show" by reason of (relative) excellence at pretty well any singaround I have been to - barring only the better massed brawls in the beer tents at paid for festivals where you can suddenly find that the storm playing from behind you is Last Nights's Fun (you get my drift). Likewise better than most of the dross at the few open mics I have been to. For the purposes of this post I'm not going to say "but it wasn't folk" - but this is not to debar me from raising that hare on any other aoccasion.

Equally both would (barring a spot of trouble with feedback on the song) have been plenty good enough to be beyond substantial criticism for a paid support slot at club night or I think concert.

As a headlining act - well at the start of the song the fiddler was a fraction off the pitch for a second or so at the beginning of the song, and I was a little uneasy about the female vocal on that song too in places, and the whole thing was not Nic Jones (but then it wasn't his style). The Irish tune seemed bang on to me all the way through, but Irish is not my bag so maybe others can hear subtelties there that I can't. Maybe I would not have put them on the main stage at Ely (if I ran Ely, which I don't), but I've heard worse on the second stage there.

All quite good enough to make me start wondering whether my thoughts of a recording project are me getting way above my station.

But how does it relate to the people who Jim and the Captain would say should not sing or play?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 04:24 AM

No, I can't Silas. Are you too near an army camp or something? :-)

Dick - the price of drinks is not always increased to pay for the performer. The performers don't always get paid! I think that is what Nick is on about. I know, for instance, he was at our festival where through the day we had only one paid performer in the singaround - and the folk club paid him! The singaround went on all day in the bar and even spread to the back room at one point. The landlord did not increase the price of drinks. Mind you - he could have paid something from the extra profits he made. It's not often he sells a weeks worth of beer in a day!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 02:57 AM

Can anyone else hear the stomping of jackboots?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 08 - 12:18 AM

Nick,but you dont get music for free in a pub,the price of the drinks are increased ,to pay for the performer.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:48 PM

trangeky...

Never eat treacle when you're typing. I thought I typed 'strangely'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:41 PM

It's a very ethereal conversation as most things are on the web. Standards are a trangeky intangible thing without examples.

So let me give you some concrete examples. For a music site it has very little music on it and lots of words! There is a thread that Max started recently and M Ted or someone, I think, suggested that it would be nice to have sidebars where one could illustrate things musically that might help the words.

I play in singarounds and see good and bad stuff. I'm lucky to have met people who are good and play with me and I slide along on their coattails and pick up a few quid here and there.

So if I'm going to pay for a gig then I think it should be better than people can get for free. So here are two examples from playing recently in Leeds - Mark Kane is a fine fiddler (and singer and guitarist etc) who makes my playing and singing sound better.

I reckon that if I'm going to pay then it has to be better than this because you can go to a pub and get this for free.

So there's my benchmark between singaround and paid gig. Yours may be very different but at least you know where mine sits.

Tune
Song

And yes we should have practiced before we played.

It's a benchmark.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:53 PM

Leveller: the fact is, Jim never said anything which suggested that he had a problem with amateur performances.

If you're prepared to admit that you misread his comment, I'm prepared to withdraw the accusation of dishonesty.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:34 PM

Richard - I am trusting you to be my concience in this btw - Let me know again if I have stepped out of line. Honest, I need to know!

And going to another thread I would like to join you in performing - I am not that good either so we may make a good pair between us:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM

I will indeed do you that coutesy in all good faith, theleveller. I have not refused to accept your explanation at all. If you would care to look at my last post it was me that suggested that you ommited the key phrase. You did however put words in someones mouth, albeit by 'sin of ommision'.

I do not know at all, let alone know well, what you meant and I can only go off what you said. Excuse me if the ESP module of my browser is malfunctioning. At the moment I am unable to read peoples minds. I am more than happy however to accept that you made a mistake but am a little puzzled as to why I appear to be the cause of that mistake and the recipient of such vitriol.

I will leave it up to Jim, as I said initialy, to answer your initial allegation and I will quiet happily let it go as a 'sin of ommission' on your part. Bearing in mind what I have said on this thread about people repeating the same mistakes over and over again I do hope that you have learned by yours:-)

All the best.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 04:19 PM

"It isn't at all, theleveller. But that is NOT what you said."

Yes, that's exactly what I meant, as you well know. It was you who chose to interpret it differently, despite my admitting that I had not read the previous posts that Jim had made.

I joined the discussion quite a long way down the line and, as I've said, did not have the time to read all the previous posts. Thst happens all the time on a long thread.

You can choose to take whatever interpretation you like - your refusal to accept my explanation is churlish and totally bad-mannered. Anyone who knows me or has read any of my previous posts will know that I would never stoop so low as to put words into other people's mouths. It's not my way. It never has been and it never will be. I value my integrity far more than that - that's why I am upset about being called dishonest. Persoanl abuse does not usually upset me but this is beyond the pale.

Please do me the courtesy of accepting that, if I sinned, it was the sin of ommission.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:48 PM

Why is it dishonest to say that if you took Jim's argument to it's logical conclusion

It isn't at all, theleveller. But that is NOT what you said. You actualy said, and read it if you don't believe me,

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions

If you are now saying you actualy meant to include the 'logical conclusion' bit but somehow forgot, I am quite happy with that. We all make mistakes.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

"I don't understand that bit. Be both mutually know Paul - you more than me - I wouldn't have thought I'm way up in the folk police league........?"

Definitely not!

It's so easy to fall out in print though. This argument (discussion?) would be taking place with smiles all round if it was face to face. You might even tickle each others bellies!

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Nick
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

"That's a really silly post."

No it isn't; just because you can't understand or don't agree with an opinion, don't belittle it; explain why you think it's silly.

It's a really sill post because it ignores what people are saying. It's like playing music with people and not listening to what they are playing. It's very relevant to the thread if you think about it.

If you make a statement which quotes others then your statement links to that comment - to say that you have commented about something without reading the context is odd to me. Your choice.

>>It's harking back to the 'folk police' arguments we've had in the past, often from people who have been part of the Critics Group thing that I found then(and still find) goes against what I believe folk music to be about. I've made my opinions on that very clear in previous threads.

I don't understand that bit. Be both mutually know Paul - you more than me - I wouldn't have thought I'm way up in the folk police league........?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:20 PM

PS If you can't conduct an argument without distorting the other person's you are beneath contempt.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I do think it's a bit... well...

...on second thoughts, never mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:17 PM

Why is it dishonest to say that if you took Jim's argument to it's logical conclusion it would mean that all amateur productions should be banned?

Because Jim never said anything which suggested that he had anything against amateur performances. He said he was going to see a couple of plays and hoped that the actors would have rehearsed and would know all their lines (with the implication that they probably would); he then said, "Would that folk song be granted the same respect."

And, er, that's it. Nothing about amateurs not rehearsing - Jim didn't even say that the plays he was going to see were professional productions. Somebody a few comments later did make a connection between actors taking the trouble to rehearse and actors getting paid -

I assume the actors will be getting paid for their efforts. Maybe that's where the difference lies.

- but that was, er, you.

I'll repeat my earlier question: what is it you disagree with Jim Carroll about? It's obviously not the imposition of professional standards on folk music, because he's against that.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 02:50 PM

What are you talking about DeG? Why is it dishonest to say that if you took Jim's argument to it's logical conclusion it would mean that all amateur productions should be banned? That's my opinion. If you don't like it that's your problem. What is totally dishonest is people like you trying to make out that I have said something I haven't. You may not agree with my opions but to deliberately pervert them is grotesque. If you can't conduct an argument without distorting the other person's you are beneath contempt.

"It's only theleveller's little claws, he's a pussycat really!"

Careful, Paul. You don't know what I'm capable of. When I come to KFFC BBB I may just throw folk club manners to the wind and shout 'Bottoms' when you're singing Whiskey in the Jar.

Musha ringa ma durum da (Bottoms)
Whak fol da dady oh.....

That'll show you!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 01:17 PM

Initial comment by theleveller which prompted this sideline -

Taking Jim Carroll's argument, we should ban all amateur productions such as school plays and concerts, amateur dramatic societies, village pantos, carol singers etc. because they may not come up to his exacting standards.

Later on, by same leveller -

but I deeply resent being called dishonest

Maybe, just maybe, theleveller if the initial comment was true then you may not have been called dishonest? But it was not and if you would care to check it out I think you will find that no-one has ever suggested banning anything.

As to whether this thread should end - I think there may be some interest still being generated. No one is forcing anyone to read it or contribute:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:13 PM

I always find it refreshing to be in agreement with Wee Little Drummer (about somthing other than how good John Kelly is)!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM

"That was spiky too! "

It's only theleveller's little claws, he's a pussycat really! Not that I've ever tickled his belly you understand........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:58 AM

What a strange man. I wonder what all that was about.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:13 AM

well personally I like talking to other folksingers even if I profoundly disagree with them. We have more in common with each other than with anyone else, romany man.

we've all been the same sort of places - we may have thought different thoughts; sung different songs; may not have always respected different kinds of music - but at least we we all had pretty much the same basis for our ideas, and we all enjoyed hearing what the other guy had to say - even if we didn't agree with him. It was fun disagreeing with someone who cares for the same artform that you - and that's pretty much the basis of mudcat.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:10 AM

Thank gawd f'that.

I thought for a moment that I would have to bring Nazis into the discussion.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 11:05 AM

It's always the same - just when you're starting to enjoy yourself, someone says it time to go home!

TAXI!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: romany man
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

this thread will go on for ever with the im right so shut up brigade, or you are wrong so shut up brigade, why not every one shut up, agree to disagree and all go home.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:50 AM

I `ad that leveller in my cab and `e looked well distaught and a little bit "Tom and Dick".
I said, " Whats up, the leveller? You look quite pale and wan"
(Being in the old folk music I knew `ed cotton to that)
`e said, " Jim, take me in a straight line anywhwere. I just read that Silas bit on that Mucat and it`s made me blooming dizzy!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:38 AM

Calm down now lads, calm down.

This thread should have finished 10 pages ago, you are just going round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round and round and and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round an and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and rou and round and roundnd and round and round and round and roundd round and round round

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:32 AM

That was spiky too!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 10:25 AM

What a complete load of bollocks! Just stop making things up will you and get a grip on reality.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 09:46 AM

Your second comment reads as if Jim had endorsed your comment about professionalism. You knew he hadn't, the comment you were responding to didn't suggest he would do, and you knew he wasn't around to contradict you. That's why I called it dishonest.

As for people not being able to handle your approach, it's more that your approach tends to disqualify your argument. More precisely, it tends to *obscure* your argument. I know that what you disagree with Jim Carroll about isn't the compulsory professionalisation of folk music, because I know he doesn't advocate that. So why pretend it is?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

Water off a duck's back, Richard - no more scars that I have already (and I was never very pretty)!

One thing I'd just like to get straight, though: I have the greatest respect for Jim Carroll, especially for his knowledge and love of folk music and for many of his political views. Where we appear to disagree is on the application of standards to amateur performances. We can, and have in the past, had robust and heated debates on this, which, I believe, have been conducted without personal animosity or abuse (and very little physical violence). My style of argument may be confrontational (but that's my personality) but I deeply resent being called dishonest, as my opinions on this subject have not changed all the time I have been a mudcat member. 'Provocative' I accept – that's what robust argument is about – but not 'dishonest'.

For those of you who can't handle my approach, I just say "tough s**t," you're entitled to your opinion, as am I, but, unless you're the moderator, do not try dictate how and where I can express it.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:45 AM

Aye - probably, Richard. Apologies if I have gone over the top - I didn't think I had but I know I am probably a bit less than diplomatic at times;-)

Cheers

DeG

(Which bit ws spiky btw?)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Nov 08 - 07:42 AM

Seems a bit spiky DeG.