Folk Club Manners

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

It is the essence of farouche arts and performance that they are without the artifice of high art.

I have no clue whatsover what 'the essence of farouche arts' and 'the artifice of high art' means. If, by bringing out these expresions, you intend to exclude people from your arguements, Richard, then you have suceeed. Well done, you have shown me up to be the uneducacted Gnome I obviously am!

I will say however that if you are saying that anyone should be able to join in with anything then why on earth are you using phrases that one needs need an Oxford degree to understand?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:19 PM

You have no idea how relieved I am Melissa to see even one person say that!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:08 PM

Thanks for that, Richard B. I grew up with the understanding that when people join together (whether they know the song or not) like that, THAT is where the Music is. The combination is what makes the conversation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:53 PM

Oh dear.

There are two threads of argument running here now, and I have tried to bite my tongue but I have to come back on both.

First there is the "You're not good enough" view. Second there is the "Don't join in unless I tell you" view which for me implies something of the first.

Now let me say that I don't believe that things are "good enough for folk". We should all (and I do) try to do as well as possible. That, surely, is in the nature of singing or playing in public. I think it is obvious that the arrival of the expression was a nice piece of British self-deprecation, a deflection, what lawyers in the 1970s would have called a "confession and avoidance".   People who think that people who say it are expressing the view that incompetence is good enough in folk music or song misread what is said - in my view. However, I do take exception to "artless" as a term of criticism. It is the essence of farouche arts and performance that they are without the artifice of high art.

I also believe that people who do not bother to try let both themselves and the genre down. This applies (amongst others) to a nearly semi-pro I know (no names no packdrill) who seems to ascribe to the school of thought that the top 4 strings of a 12 string are Bb, Bnatural, Eb and E natural, and another true semipro who has a guitar worth about 2 grand but uses strings that cost about 2 dollars a set and changes them about every 2 months - oh and a nearly semipro fiddler who "plays" when unable to stand. And people who can read dots but couldn't swing with a rope around their neck. None of that justifies telling them that they are not good enough to play or sing (although it might lead to me running away to avoid the latter). It doesn't justify shutting out singers who can't sing, or who can't memorise words, either. It is not a competition. It is not a hierarchy.

Is it bad manners to impose when you may cause discomfort by your performance - well, yes, but so is farting in public. It's not a hanging offence. Is it bad manners to tell another that they are not good enough? In my view, yes, and clearly so and worse. That (IMHO) is what stops people starting to play or sing. The former only dissuades the audience.


Now I come to the "don't join in" view. I have agonised about posting what I am about to post. I have sent it to "sensitive" friends to review for me in advance (they approve). I am desperate not (likely falsely) to say or imply that I am better than anyone else. That is something that I find offensive in others. I do what I do as well as I can - although my views as to what is better or worse may not be the same as others.

It seems to me that resticting joining in - unless there is a very gocent reason - runs the risk of excluding the most magical of moments: the tingle (or as it has been called elsewhere, "the Miskin tingle").

Now I'm not one to blow my own trumpet, in fact I'm full of insecurities and self doubt, but it seems I finally have to.

One Sweeps I hoiked my mandolin out in a singaround and a bloke said to me afterwards "How did you do that, they were original songs and you've never heard them and you knew exactly what I was about to do before I did it?"

A while before that while Jacqui was alive, we were at a sort of acoustic club, and there was a plank player there. He listened to us do our couple of songs in the first half, and then in the second he said "Can I come up with you?" We said "Well we're going to do X and Y, do you know them?" He said "I know the format". He was right (if a bit loud).

Then there was a Tenterden, and I was flying that year. One bloke (a professional) did a song in the 8 Bells in C sharp and I did quietly and tentatively look for the accompaniemnt, and damn me next time he did it he said "I did this in the 8 Bells and Richard found all the right notes" (I comment, the capo helped a lot). That time of course I screwed it up!

Same year, a different professional (an international pro) said to me as we went off on the Sunday "You're playing has been one of the highlights of the festival for me. You've never met any of these people but it sounds like you've rehearsed the songs together".

Now this is not because I am good or have any special talent. It's because if a musician listens really hard he can tell a fraction ahead of time (usually) where someone is going next in a song. Anyone can do it so long as they do not tense up (so I could not do it if put "on the spot" and stressed).

Some years before Royston and I were giving "Haul Away for Rosie" a shellacking in the Dog and Bunny in Maidstone when the Barden had a session there, and some bloke was cooking up a storm on the guitar behind us (we were in "B"). Sounded super-great, a sort of blues riff against the repeating lines in the shanty.

This serendipity is one of the greatest things about our music. Don't shut it out with egos and formalism. Please.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

Surely, the fact of Bryan's agreeing with 'persistent bad singing isn't a problem' simply means that it's a problem that he hasn't come across, rather than it not being a problem to anyone if and when it does happen, as I'm sure it is/would be.

I am relieved that others feel that it is up to the singer to say that other people are welcome to join in with a whole song, rather than saying they don't want people to join in. I have a strong aversion to 'everyone in on everything' sessions, so I don't go to them. A singaround is just that, with each person having the opportunity to sing in turn.

And Sleepy Rosie, there's lots of good advice here - and if you respect the songs, chances are you'll do fine. Lots of luck, and enjoy yourself (is that as bad as 'myself'? :-) ).

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:57 PM

Bryan,
"All we can possibly know beforehand is that they want to sing or play."
There was never any question (certainly not as far as I'm concerned) that any singer who wished to was given one bite of the cherry; as you say, how else would we know whether they could sing or not. The argument is about whether people who wished to sing were consistently given spots before they had conquered the rudiments. SHOULD PEOPLE BE ENCOURAGED TO PRACTICE IN PUBLIC?

"persistent bad singing isn't a problem...... "
As I said before "ding-ding; I'm on the bus" Not to you maybe, but others suggest that it is to them. But the question has to be; is the best place for singers to overcome the rudiments of singing, in front of an audience? Apart from the effect that a non-singer has on the other residents, what image of the club – and folk song in general – does a visitor take away from a club which persistently presents singers who can't sing? Is it unreasonable to expect a 'singer' to be able (at the very least) to hold a tune and not to have to rely on a text to get through the song before they sing it in public?

"..... because (they believe) they're worth it, and if you believe that, there's a good chance you are".
I have persistently argued that virtually anybody can sing, but I have always qualified this by saying "if they put the work in first".

"Yes, we have singers who are, perhaps, somewhat short of concert standard"
Again you are dodging behind phrases like 'glass ceilings' 'virtuosos' and 'exclusion'. The argument has never been about singers reaching "concert standards" before they perform in public; it has always been about mastering the rudiments.

"hit-and-run".
Sorry – a knee-jerk on my part, made when this thread was generating more heat than light – I apologise.

"By making our criterion the desire to sing, we are raising standards".
Not if you are consistently putting on (or urging others to put on) singers who can't master the basics you're not.

" Not by selecting the few who are good enough but by helping everybody to get better and, in my experience, they do."
Again, loaded phraseology – nobody has suggested that only 'the few' are good enough to sing; we are saying that in order to present our music in a good light, basic standards should first be achieved.

""not in my (admittedly now somewhat limited) experience I'm afraid" That is, I think, the nub of the problem......"
I left the club scene principally because I believed that the 'near enough for folk-song' crowd had finally taken over the asylum. Arguments like this only serve to convince me that I was right.
I have no doubt whatever that there are clubs where the standards are high enough not to give the impression that folk singing is artless and inept; nor do I hesitate, on the basis of what I've heard, to include your club among the better ones, but that doesn't change the fact that clubs I have visited confirm my experience and that of others I know far more familiar with the UK club scene.
I have heard it argued on this forum that not only are standards unnecessary, but they are undesirable, the inference being that the music is really not worth the effort – not for me I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:52 PM

Sleepy Rosie - don't worry, that was just a friendly welcome from JimLass, proves you are welcome as part of the pack and safe to snarl at.


(but, grammatically, he she or it is right! Snork!)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

Hi Sleepy.....

Good luck and have lots of fun singing in clubs. The advice I would offer is at first focus on a handful of songs, and get used to singing them well before expanding your repertoire. I used to give the same advice to new members of a group I used to belong to - and the music hall company I rejoined this year.

In my opinion you will get much more pleasure from singing a few songs really well than a lot of songs 'half-known', and to know a song is not just learning the words and tune but also interpreting the stories and nuances and really making the songs your own. That comes from practice and repetition, then build up your repertoire. But most of all, enjoy what you are doing and let your enjoyment come across to the audience.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:26 PM

Jimslass - please could you perhaps try to avoid being so very impolite and unwelcoming to a new arrival making her first post? Language changes over time, whether one likes it or not, and there are many regional variations which may be incorrect to some eyes, but perfectly acceptable to others. If you are offended by other people's use of grammar perhaps I may humbly suggest that you might be advised not to visit web fora such as this one at all - purely for your own comfort and safety of course? Thank you so very kindly none-the-less for your contribution. Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 12:02 PM

Is yourself you getting yourself's undergarments in a kerfuffle over thisself, Jimslass? Eh but?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: jimslass
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 11:46 AM

Arrghhhh! PLEEEEAAAASE no more using this 'myself' when you mean 'me' or 'I'

This is not a dig at genetically poor spellers or mangled grammar, but this 'creep' of usage - it's getting everywhere. I had a memo from my manager last month asking 'send your answers back to myself ASAP' how ludicrous is that?

I am going with a friend, or a friend and I, not, for the love of God, Myself and a friend are going. My eyes are watering ! Resist this gruesome expression!Please!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:44 AM

Dear Sleepy Rosie,

I hope that your debut goes well (or should I have said "break a leg"?).

I'm sure you'll do fine and that if you do make the odd mistake everyone will be extremely tolerant. You're obviously putting a lot of work into your singing - keep it up - singing in public really does get easier with practice (practice, practice, practice).

Why not set yourself a target of dispensing with the notes after a few sessions? And then go on to slightly more difficult songs and/or tunes etc. Also try and record and listen to yourself.

Finally, learn how to take criticism (the constructive kind, of course). Workshops, providing that they're well run, are an excellent way of improving your singing, but you need to approach them in the right frame of mind - open and receptive to new ideas but not 'thin-skinned' and defensive.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Throwing beer, you're better off without him. Sounds like a prat.

If you're going to be that thin skinned and volatile - you're not really safe out on your own.

Its sounds to sense you get the odd song buggered up in some way by the audience. The guy sounds like total moron. Mostly its someone who just gets it wrong - thinks he knows the song better than you, thinks he's god's gift to humour, thinks he knows a brilliant accompaniment.

Nick Fenwick - the Geordie used to have a battery of amusing insults for hecklers and act violators. When you're pro - you learn to deal with these situations as well as you can - without unpleasantness. if you're visiting somewhere strange you have to be careful - you might be traumatising the local care in the community basketcase.

either way, throwers of beer are the villains of the piece.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:45 AM

May I make a suggestion Rosie?

How about putting just one main word from each line, nice and large, on a piece of paper, then dropping it discretely to the floor or onto a nearby table?

you'll probably only need one key word if you do dry up, and knowing that the prompt is there if you need it will probably mean you won't need it!

And if you do, a quick glance is unlikely to spoil your flow. But you wont have a paper screen between you and the audience.

Just a thought.

Tom

...who is relieved to be given permission not to join in! I always feel everyone assumes I'll know every song ever written, and as guest am expected to help to lead the throng-thringing. Luckily I learned the Patent Garbutt Chorus Gargle at the great man's own knee, so can carry off a silent, note perfect rendition upon first hearing - complete with simultaneous counter-tenor and basso profundo 'hummonies.'

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 09:18 AM

Firstly, hello group - I'm a new member. I possibly should have introduced myself previously, but hey ho.

As a newbie to folk, this thread has been quite intriguing. Myself and friend shall be attending an evening singaround in the next few days. It shall in fact be my first, though I hope not my last!

Over the last few weeks I have set to heart a small handfull of songs to sing solo and unacompannied. I hope to sing one or two of these on the night, courage prevailing.

I can remember them perfectly well while singing alone or indeed whilst among friends, but I do fully intend to take along a few discreet well-eared, coffee-stained and bath-crinkled sheets of paper, 'justincase'.

As a beginner, of course I wish to do my best and as such, I have made an effort to fully memorise the songs I have learned thus far.

But I think if I were expected to attempt to sing without even being able to have any kind of security blanket to hand, the anxiety of knowing I didn't have the notes with me to glance at, would probably be enought to ensure I hit a blank, feel consequently very horrid, and quite possibly never want to try again!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,aw
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 08:16 AM

(back at work now) (no computer at home). I'm relieved to see people agreeing with me that persistant and innappropriate joining in counts as bad manners ( wasn't sure if it was just me!). Most contributors agreeing with this (BB, Jim Carroll etc) are feeling the annoyance from the performer's point of view, which I can see must be tremendously off-putting - I guess people sometimes feel it has been a pointless excercise to work hard at interpreting and presenting a song (or tune) if other people are just going to ignore their efforts and sing their own version anyway.

But can I also emphasise that it is really annoying when you are a (mere) member of the audience. I can sometimes be trying to follow a song and find myself clamping my teeth with restrained anger if all I'm getting is a tune hummed, or words whispered with no reference to the singer's choice of timing, sense of story etc. Trouble is - what can you say? If I complain I have no way of knowing whether I am in a minority of one, with everyone else present enjoying the layers of sound. I risk making enemies of friends and turning a personal irritation into a bad atmosphere for all.

Just to be clear - I'm not talking about choruses, or even occasions where the club convention is to contribute to certain places in certain songs, but only what, for want of a better covering term, one may call ballads - songs that are much better listened to than sung along with.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:41 AM

"it wasnt the best solution. "
Probably not - perhaps he should have poured liquid manure.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:36 AM

I tend to agree with you, Jim,However there have been a few occassions when someone spontaneously sings a harmony that is really good.
on the occassion,when I was guesting at a london folk club,and another concertina player, joined in playing a different chord progression,I was flabbergasted.
on the other hand I have no problem,with the club where the organiser makes bird /sheep calls,I am prepared for it,and try either not to include songs that feature birds/ sheep,or to turn it to my advantage as a performer by making a joke out of it,sometimes it pays to be easy going,and not lose the head.
organisers choose which guests to book,but guests are under no obligation to play any club ,that they dont fancy.
I can understand the guy pouring beer over someones head,but in the cool light of day it wasnt the best solution.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 07:20 AM

Jim - Maybe the singers are being allowed into the session to provide practice for the musicians in song accompaniment.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 06:46 AM

We had one singer singing a song about a bird singing in a tree.At this point a person in the sing around started playing a bird warbler.Although the singer was clearly getting upset he persisted with it.With two verses still to go the singer picked up his drink and through it over the Warbler.He missed and drenched the poor chap by his side.That singer has not been seen again or his wife who is a joy to listen to.Thinking about it the poor chap that got soaked has not been seen since.
The other thing Jim ,similar to what your saying, is that singers will sing the chorus of the version they know which may not be your version. Another problem is that during your song some anticipate your ending and do a long closing note. This is very off putting particularly if you have a number of verses to go.Instead of shutting up they continue to try and close the song.I love people singing along with me, but I wish they would just listen to what I am doing.
Alan

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 08 - 04:13 AM

Thanks Alan - that's exactly the display of bad manners I was referring to.
Has anybody come across another menace we have witnessed on a number of occasions (not in clubs, but in music sessions - though, taking Richard's argument to its logical conclusion, there's no reason why it shouldn't happen anywhere)?
In many of our local music sessions the musicians will often have a 'song break' where they invite singers up. On at least half a dozen occasions we have come across musicians who will attempt to accompany singers, uninvited of course, (time to do what was done to Paul Newman in the Hustler maybe!!!).
Uninvited joiners-in, harmonisers, would-be-accompanists, etc, as far as I'm concerned, should be made as welcome at a folk club as mobile phones or display flatulists.
I won't even start about wandering bodhran, banjo, piano-accordeon, twelve-string kalashnikov, spoons, bottle-and-coin, or anything that comes to hand players who invite themselves into sessions in order to drown the other musicians out.
Back later, now the visitors have gone home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Alan Day
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:38 PM

Jim.the same goes for musicians ,something that you have practised hard on, can be completely ruined by other musicians joining in.Wrong Chords,instrument out of tune with yours etc.It is equally more difficult if the artist is well known, an asset to any club,never puts a foot wrong when performing,but is absolutely hopeless when trying to play along.Even a tune that I may have just written,with no idea of any key changes etc he will play along.This is a very relaxed sing around
(after writing on here I need to relax)I have no wish to stir up any trouble, but it certainly puts me off performing unless I play for everyone to join in.Sometimes however it is nice to try something new on an audience.
Al

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 12:09 PM

Our singing tradition is, with very few exceptions, a solo one (wassails, sea shanties and such like excluded).
Time and again I have seen peoples' efforts naused up by insensitive egotists who want to show that they know the songs as well as the singer.
Why should singers have to ask that people should not join in - it should go without saying and it is arrogant to assume otherwise.
Please tell me what Walter Pardon should have done when people joined in with his singing (he was part of a sing-around in his market town of North Walsham for years); should the onus have been on him stop people making a free-for-all of his songs?
The best example of an audience on an ego-trip was one night at a London club - not that long ago, when the singer embarked on Scarborough Fair. He had chosen (in his stupidity I suppose) to use the beautiful minorised Kidson tune - the audience couldn't make up their mind - half of them joined in (verse and chorus) with the well-known MacColl/Littlewood version collected from Mark Anderson while the other half launched into the Simon and Garfunkel adaptation - result, an absolute cacophony   
It is not even a question of joining in on the songs, a certain amount of sensitivity is required on choruses.
Walter got extremely upset when some audiences decided to both harmonise and slow down choruses making them clever-clever dirges.
Unless you wish to reduce folk-singing to community singing before kick-off the individual singer - not the audience, must call the shots - he/she has to be the interpreter - the audience is there to listen and to help out if invited.
I think I'm beginning to see why the club scene is in such a mess if this is representative of current thinking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:37 AM

Richard, I agree that folk music is participatory. That does not mean that it is right, or acceptable, to join in with everything, no matter how good a singer you may be. It is about showing respect for the singer, and the song.

Even in a singaround or session, each singer takes his turn and in my opinion it is up to them to say whether the others should join in, not the other way around. Even then, in most cases when someone says "here's one you can join in with" it should usually be taken as an invitation to join in the chorus, not the whole bloody song.

There may be exceptions in some clubs and singarounds, where it may be the custom, but even then one should show some sensitivity towards songs, or singers, for whom it is clearly inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

I might have differed on the very fine singer in those circs, and have found the joining in acceptable (although man or woman should "know their limitations") - but in a singaround or song-session or session I thinnk it is for those who do not want others to join in to make that very clear, and to consider whether they are the ones being conceited or arrogant. If doing a song or tune in an unusual way in a singaround or session I think it is also good manners for the "leader" to make it clear in advance that would-be participants need to listen and follow.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:38 AM

Bryan,
Sorry for the delay for responding in full - we gave our Traveller talk yesterday and the singing week-end finishes today so I'll try to do so in this evening - alchohol intake permitting.
One of the topics under discussion here was raised at last night's excellent concert - that of joining in uninvited. The perp was a very fine Scots singer who really has been on the scene long enough to know better, and was - eventually - glowered into desisting by her immediate neighbours. It is extremely bad manners - and, in my opinion - extremely arrogant.
One of the most heartening aspects of the week-end was the age spread, particularly the handful of excellent younger singers who turned up.
Part of the procedure was a singing class - these are becoming a regular feature over here - I have to say I have mixed feelings about the form these take - maybe a thread on teaching sometime? (this is beginning to sound like Alasdair Cook's 'Letter From Munster').
Now - "SONG - MUSIC - DRINK; as Father Jack has been heard to remark.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:53 PM

I'll try it on you on Monday, John. When you see all those people in the 'front row' hanging on your every word I'm sure you won't get nervous:-D

Hehehehe.

David el evil Gnomo

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: John Routledge
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

DeG - I would add a further "solution"

4. Apply psychological pressure. This is worth a thread on its own :0)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 12:07 PM

I take your point, Shimrod, especially about sitting next to the human echo box, but am forced to disclose that dirgey bellowing (a brilliant album title, if I ever heard one) is one of my favourite things about folk music...

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:45 AM

One of my pet hates is uninvited 'joiners-in'. Fairly recently I embarked on a ballad at a singaround and soon realised that the bloke next to me was singing along with me quite loudly! I had to stop and remind this person that my performance was not a duet! On another occasion, whilst I was singing from a stage, someone in the audience joined in in a completely different key ...

In my opinion ballad interpretation is a very personal thing and joining in is very bad manners.

People who insist on dictating the rhythm and pace of a singer's performance during refrains and choruses are also, imo, displaying crass rudeness.

Personally, I blame all those 'folk choirs' of the 60s and 70s who made people believe that 'dirgey' bellowing and harmonising are 'de rigeur' and must be indulged in at every opportunity.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:43 AM

BTW - Forgot to ask. I have in my possesion a CD of '25 years at the White Lion'. Gives a good indication of the quality of some of our regulars. If anyone wants a sample PM me and I will happy to send an MP3 version. If you like it and want to send a couple of quid the producers of the CD would be very grateful.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:29 AM

Not at all, Bryan. Does anyone else want to add to the options or answer the questions?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 10:26 AM

I think I'll just wait for Jim's reply if you don't mind.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:27 AM

If I may be so bold, Bryan, as to address one of your points. Not on Jims behalf but on my own -

I'm sure those clubs must exist, but shop around a bit I think you would be pleasntly surprised.

The statement above started with 'that is the nub of the problem' and I agree entirely. We are possibly trying to compare apples and oranges. You are a very lucky person indeed not to have come across a, how shall we put it, 'non-improver'. Neither me nor Jim have said, I don't think, that the quality is generaly bad. All we are saying is that we have come across these 'non-improvers' (Decided I like the term:-) ) and the whole point is what shall we do with them.

The feeling is that if we continue to put them on during popular guest nights then there is a chance that they could put some people off. And have indeed done so in Jims example! So, the choices are, in my view -

1. Do nothing. Accept that they may never get better. Limit the 'damage', as I try to do.
2. Do something more positive, as you do, and offer them a chance to improve at workshops. Not sure what will happen if you ever come across someone that doesn't improve but that's hypothetical anyway!
3. Ignore it altogther.

I am sure there must be more and I would consider other alternatives openly if people can point me in the right direction.

Boils down to the questions you and Jim keep asking again. From you - How many bad performers have you come across and in what time frame? I would add and what did you do about it? And from Jim - Is it right to put someone who is realy bad in the spotlight week after week?

I think that's what it comes down to anyway and those are the questions I believe we should be getting answers for so we can make an informed decision about how we (the royal we - club organisers) go about the issue at our clubs.

I welcome any response and advice.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

My post was in response to Jim's in which he said -

If your policy is as stated in the first part of this sentence - by being prepared to put on a singer who cannot hold a tune, cannot remember the words and are incapable of communicating the song to an audience, yes, you are promoting bad singing - explain how you are not.

and his follow up at 06 Nov 08 - 03:42 AM .

I was answering his question and I wonder what his resposne is.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: BB
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:40 AM

I agree with both Jim and Bryan - we do care and there is plenty more to be discussed if people wish. But Bryan, perhaps if you word it differently you might get a response - there were only statements in that post! :-)

Barbara

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 08:11 AM

I think there is plenty more to be discussed here. I am particularly interested to here Jim Carroll's response to my post of 06 Nov 08 - 09:33 AM.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:35 AM

We're still here Jim, to some of us you are pushing an already open door, to the others you may as well be talking to the door!

Go for it....

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:32 AM

Isn't it bad manners for somebody to try to stop discussions which they might have lost interest in but obviously others haven't (often referred to as the "mummy, I'm bored" syndrome)?
I'm delighted that this thread has continued (in spite of minor hiccups) as long as it has - it shows people care about their clubs.
Having a wonderful time - wish you were all here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:50 PM

And a good time to stop un-named guests from making supercilious comments? (sorry - couldn't reist!)

:D

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 03:04 PM

11/11/1918 would have been a good time to wrap up this thread ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

Would 11 o' clock on the 11th of this month be a good time to wrap up this thread?

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Silas
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

You just had to get 666 didn't ya!

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Richard Bridge.
I did a gig at a folk club in london,I did a version of a traditional song,somebody in the audience decided to join in,but they were using different chords to me.
no it wasnt ok,its good manners to ask[IAM NOT TALKING ABOUT JOINING IN CHORUSES]but deciding to accompany someone who doesnt need any accompaniment,or already has their own perfectly good accompaniment.
I dont know if it is a full moon,but you dont seem to take it in to your cranium ,that I have never[as an organiser] not allowed a floor singer to sing,but I repeat, an organiser has that right if they wish to do so,they are organising/financing the club.,whether I wish to exercise that right is a different matter[I never did ].

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: HappyHag
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 10:54 AM

Richard Bridge - no, I have never sung a spider song, unless you mean 'I know an old lady who swallowed a fly' which I used to sing to my children. Sorry, ot.
Julia, Eastbourne

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:13 AM

I would agree, Jim. (Is that twice in one week? What's the world coming to:-) )

Richard - surely the very people who sing quiet and introspective songs are generaly quiet and intropective by nature. It may be OK to tell a loud and uncouth bugger like me to ask people to keep quite but surely you wouldn't expect someone who just wants to sing gentle songs, who already may be a little nervous, to lay down the law before they sing would you?

I think it sometimes rude to join in uninvited. Even more so when you get people drowning out the singer of the song.

The other side is established people who want to do their own arrangement of a popular song - My mate Phil Atkinson is normaly a loud plank basher, in the nicest possible way of course, but his version of 'The Holy Ground' defies anyone to yell 'Fine Girl You Are'. I have a copy if anyone would like it btw:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 09:00 AM

Richard,
They shouldn't have to; some people may not welcome humming, stamping feet or clapping hands but are far to polite to mention it (like Walter Pardon was).
I was always taught to wait until I was asked.
Must take my tin whistle along to to the next Dolores Keane concert - she sings participatory folksongs doesn't she (sort of)?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

If you would care to read what I said, you will see that those who do not want anyone else to spoil their rendition can explicitly say "Please do NOT join in or hum along".

All they need then to consider is whether that is conceited or whether there is a different explanation.

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

There was a lady, and I use the term loosly, used to visit Swinton club on a regular bais. Known locally as 'Black Margaret', I would guess for her hair colour but it could have been her character for all I know:-) She used to insist on joining in with everything - even if she didn't know it! Funniest was when Stanley Accrigton was singing one of his very recent songs - probably penned in the last 4 hours - and she happily joined in all the words, about one beat behind him. It was very un-nerving. Stan coped remarkably well but always asks if she still comes to the club:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Club Manners
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 07:57 AM

"I completely disagree Barbara. IMHO it is participative music and if someone really wants others not to participate then it is up to them to make that wholly clear and even then to consider if they are being self aggrandising in that request."
How can singing Lord Gregory possibly be described as participatory?
And what do you do about the eejits who invariably 'know a better version and are going to join in with that one come what may.
Walter Pardon was forced to abandon two of his favourite songs because of clowns like this.
How about LET THE PEOPLE SING - their own song, without interference.
A bit like borrowing Turner's paintbrush to fill in the bit he missed, don't you think?
Jim Carroll