good ideas about sharp knives

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:11 PM

I'm a chef by trade, I'm also an ex slaughterman, a good sharp knife is important, it's also safer, [a sharp knife will not slip], get a good quality set of knifes, and use the right one for the job.
In restaurants I used Sabatier, in slaughterhouses we usually use Sweebo knives, [there the ones with the yellow handles].

I reccomend Nisbets, they have a website at www.nisbets.co.uk
their proffesional knifes start from only £2.95, they stock a full range of knifes, from all good makes, they ofeer next day delivery on all orders made before 5pm, I have used them myself many times, and always got good service.

Other good knives include Victorinox, [same company that make Swiss Army Knives, it could be a good idea to visit your local catering supply shop, and hold a few knives, see which ones you prefer, buy a good sharpening steel as well, and ask a chef, or butcher to show you how to use it.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:35 PM

I use Chicago cutlery for the most part, and I have one AG Russell paring knife. I use what I and my wife can sharpen well, either by quick swipes on a steel or by the longer and better method of Arkansas stones. I also have a couple of SMALL diamond whets, but I haven't really done much with them.

Some years ago I bought a "Japanese cleaver" type of knife. Stainless steel, and the tang doesn't got all the way through the handle. It dulled and my brother -- more about him in a minute -- sharpened it on his high-speed vertical sander. It's still got a heckuva an edge, but I don't use it much and when it dulls this time, it's history.

My youngest brother can sharpen knives. Oh Boy, can he sharpen knives or anything else with an edge. He brings 'em to a fine wire edge by using progressively finer diamond laps and then polishes off the diamond edges with the hardest Arkansas stone available. Following that, he'll strop 'em. He learned to do sharpen from an old-time barber and has simply updated his tools. When asked to sharpen something, he usually takes it up to "usable" (shaves the hair off his arm); the last time I told him to do a REAL job (on my Leatherman's blade) he took it up to "dangerous" -- and I promptly cut myself and bled all over the hardware store counter. The cut did close nicely, though, and left no scar. My bro has also won bets by sharpening the old-fashioned scalpels and having surgeons use them (on meat, not people) against the new disposable ones.

Someday, maybe this week!, he's going to mail me my epees AND the knife (damascus blade, antler handle) my other brother made and gave to the sharpener bro to, well, to sharpen.

No, I won't be using that knife for kitchen work!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dave Swan
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:31 PM

As others have said: Learn to sharpen your knives, whatever the quality, using multiple grades of grit. In a general purpose kitchen knife 22 degrees of edge works really well. To achieve that, stand the knife upright on the stone, there's 90 degrees; lay the knife over half way to perpendicular, there's 45 degrees; halfway over again gets you 22 degrees. Now take long, steady strokes in one direction, reverse and repeat. Lots on instructions are on the net providing details.

I prefer high carbon steel for the edge I can put on it, as I can maintain the knife and not worry about rust.

It's hard to beat the Wusthof Professional series, in my opinoin.

And don't let your knives near the dishwasher, it's bad for the handle and the blade.

D

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:10 PM

I still use one of my Grandmother's bread knife. It's different in that is like a little saw with very small teeth. The obvious age and feel of the handle is a delight. I'm guessing it's over one hundred year old ... and it's still got many more useful years left! Bob

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:52 PM

A good bread knife has a scalloped serration, usually. You can't sharpen it yourself without special tools. I'd say get one you like and replace it when it no longer cuts well. If you have got the equipment to sharpen it, I much prefer high carbon. Otherwise stainless is good enough and more convenient.

Proper maintainance takes time and effort. You might not care to bother if it's not important to you.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Margaret V
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:31 PM

So is there any special information I should know concerning good bread knives, or does the general information above tell me what I need to know? Thanks, Margaret

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:26 PM

There's an old saying regarding Guest Clint's comment: "If it's not in your hand it should be in the block." A quick rinse when you finish the cut, and a wipe with a clean cloth will keep the knives in good shape. Unfortunately, the "pros" often don't have the option of doing what's best for the tools, since health department regulations in many places demand that "everything goes through the washer.

As to the best sharpening methods, except for "the less the better," every user should learn how to do his own. Very slight variations in the edge "style" can make a big difference, and every usage sort of wants its own special touch. Only the one who uses it can really do it right.

Yorkshire Yankee - I've been exposed to TC edged tools (the spray coat kinds and others) for over 40 years. In the "last 4 or 5 years" they've been made available in "consumer" cutting tools (knives) but I don't particularly care for them for most uses, for the reason above. With this kind of an edge, you're stuck with what it comes with, and I - and most who have learned to use their cutting tools - often don't exactly agree with the "one size fits all" camp. I do have a couple of "choppers" with this kind of edge, but I con't consider them favorites.

The other side of "never needs sharpening" is "can never be sharpened" if you want a little different edge form for your use.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM

My daughter, a chef. also likes Global knives. I am not as big on them as I am my old Haenkels. along the same vein, I have some pocket knives and fantastic cork screws that are LAguiole. Beware of lots of companies calling themselves Laguiole but the CHateau Laguiole and the Forge Laguiole brands are fantastic as well as pretty pricey. I have a set of Forge Laguiole steak knives that are an absolute joy to use.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:01 PM

OOOPS! I forgot to mention an idea. One of our local meat markets will sharpen, for free, his customers knives occasionally. You might check around. Bob

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Deckman
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:00 PM

As a life long carpenter and wood carver, I value my knives and chisels. A dull knife is very dangerous as you are tempted to use it as a sword or a hatchet. That's how "Three Finger Jake" earned his knickname.

I use the "our knives need sharpening" ploy occasionally to go to my shop at night and build a fire in the stove, put on some good music, take a glass of vodka (I am a Finnlander) and sharpen our knives.

I've even been known to do the same for some of my better deck customers, just as a "thank you" for the jobs they give me.

As someone already said, learn to use a couple of different grits of stones ... and don't forget the vodka. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:53 PM

JiK – WOW! Are you a chef?

wld – you're in/near Sheffield, aren't you? I don't suppose you went to the Victorian Christmas Market at Kelham Island this weekend...

Thing is, as you walk down the street to Kelham Island, there are several factories (i.e, Richardsons [knives/cutlery], Atkinson's [tools] and Cut-Rite [scissors]) who take advantage of the passing crowds and run their year-end inventory clearance sales on the week-end. This means you can buy high-quality knives, saws, scissors, cutlery etc at wholesale prices (or less!). For example, I've bought knife sets there for £20-£25 that were the exact same thing (or better!) as I've seen in department stores like M&S for £100-£150!

Unfortunately, your/my timing is impeccable – as they will have just closed a few hours ago...

However, my hubby & I stock up during these sales (presents for family/friends – especially those in the US) and if you PM me, we could see if we have something that matches what you're looking for; we'll be happy to pass it along to you for whatever we paid for it. (Or – if you don't mind letting the "grass grow under your feet" ;^) for a bit longer – you can wait 'til next year's Victorian Market rolls 'round again...)

Also, JiK, while your answer was comprehensive and most impressive, you might be interested to know that a fairly recent (in the last 4-5 yrs or so) development in knives is a "high velocity oxy-fuel sprayed coating of tungsten carbide*" edge – which does not corrode and really and truly never needs sharpening. (These knives are so sharp, you are advised not to use them to cut anything on good plates, because they will seriously scratch the surface).
I can vouch for these (we have a bunch of 'em, if you're interested) because my (metallurgist) hubbie's PhD advisor is the guy who invented/developed this coating specifically for this purpose). And – wld – they can even cut onions, tomatoes, etc!

(JiK – if you're interested, you're welcome to PM me as well.)

*I am hoping that I managed to correctly remember this technical description of them during the time it took me to finish talking with my hubbie and walk back to the computer...! ;^)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 03:03 PM

Learn to use a whetstone and steel, and

***Keep them out of the G D diswasher!***

--and then there's woodcarving knives; you should strop them like a straight razor, but not quite. And ther'e Arkansas stones, and India stones, and ceramic and diamond stones and Japanese water stones-- a whole weird world...

clint

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:44 PM

Thanks for all this . I can see there is a lot more to this subject than I realised.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 02:35 PM

Keep them in a pyramid.

(or so I've heard)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:51 AM

I swear by Global myself.
Giok

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 11:17 AM

Many butcher departments use a knife service which replaces their knives with newly sharpened ones on a weekly basis (the butchers only do a little touch-up sharpening between deliveries). After knives from such services reach a certain point of wear due to repeated sharpenings, they are taken out of service. You can often get them at bargain prices if you don't mind the looks. I have a "worn out" Forschner boning knife that is my absolute favorite. It ain't purty but it cuts like the dickens.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:42 AM

A master machinist (CPO, pattern maker) taught me how to sharpen a knife. A 'razor edge' is too hard to maintain to be worth bothering with and usually cuts no better than a slightly jagged edge. Sharpen once every week or two on a medium fine stone and whet on a steel as needed. Remember to sharpen as if you were trying to shave the stone or the steel. The magnified edge should be about 60º, too steep an angle is fragile.

High carbon steel takes a much better edge than stainless but is harder to maintain. I prefer Sabatier and Haenkel. It's really a matter of what works best for you, though.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:27 AM

Check out a professional Chef Supply place... They lots of other goodies besides knives too! JiK has good specific US advice - you only get what you pay for.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM

A knife that "never needs sharpening" is generally JUNK. While it will perhaps hold whatever edge it comes with for a while, an excessively "hard" edge is very difficult to re-sharpen. Unless the very best (expensive) steel is used, the "superhard" steels also have a tendency to "intergranular brittleness" that compounds the difficulty of sharpening. You might want a hard edge in a jungle survival knife, it you have to KILL your meat with your bare hands, but they're generally not the best for household use.

Wusthof, Henckel, and Trident are all very good knives, and are a real pleasure to use, assuming one has evolved to the "tool using stage." In addition to being good quality, and usable, they are also "sexy" in that "industrial grade" sense.

Somewhat cheaper, and of fairly equal utility, Chicago Cutlery or Kansas City Cutlery are very good quality, and are what most of the "professional meat cutters" I know tend to use around my area. One factor here is that both of these makers typically give very good discounts to "professional cutters" so they get a pretty good deal. If you flatter him/her on the "exquisite touch" on a nice set of chops, you might be able to persuade the "meat guy" at your market to pick up a piece (knife) or two and pass on the discount. Even at "store prices" these are not terribly expensive - although both have "deluxe" lines that can run into the "german" brand ranges. The "standard grade" Chicago and KC knives generally have wooden handles, which in my opinion are actually a little more "hand fitting" than the "modern" substitutes, but that is a matter of preference.

Most "department store" knives run to something like the "Flint" brand - just an example, there are MANY just as bad. These have a very hard, and usually brittle, edge. I've owned many, mainly as "gifts," and have never seen a "Flint" knife that was suitable for any use except as a screwdriver or perhaps a paint scraper. (I do use one for a letter opener, but I had to drastically rework it even for that.)

You may also occasionally see really cheap (a relative term) knives advertised as "genuine carbon steel" - i.e. not corrosion resistant. These sometimes can be given a "passable" edge, but will rust. The main objection is that the "free iron" (rust) that comes off them in the dishwasher can "break" the passivation on your good stainless cookware and cause it to rust. I keep these out of my kitchen entirely.

Sort of a "novelty act," but cheap and fairly usable is a brand called "Chuppa" that features cast-on aluminum handles. They advertise, but they lie, that they're "the sharpest knives you can buy." That's not true, but if you clean the edge "just a little" they do hold well, and are pretty much indestructible in kitchen use. Not too much selection in sizes and shapes though. Some people don't much like the "feel" of them, which comes mainly from the straight line shapes needed for the simple casting they do.

With most makers other than the "prestige" lines mentioned above, it's impossible to rely on brand name alone to get good quality. One maker that appears frequently in my area in hardware and discount stores is "Tramontina," mostly made in Brazil, and some of theirs are pretty good. Others are "Flint" quality. A problem with them is that most of their stuff has some kind of serrated or other "funky" edge - not a knife, but a "saw" of some description. (There are uses for saws, but only a few in the kitchen.) I have found a few that made excellent knives once I cut the teeth off. There's also a "knock off" brand called "Travotina" that rarely has good steel, but usually is something less suitable. An additional "weakness" with the dime-store knives is that they frequently have very hard and slick finishes on the handles, making them pretty in the store, but harder to hold on to in use.

The real secret to selecting good knives is to learn how to use them. It's a "skill" that takes some learning. Only then, should you invest in a "lifetime quality" selection. Wait until you're over 40 and have practiced cutting things for half a lifetime, then buy for your grandkids' lifetime. The only way to get good quality before that is to get them from your grandparents. (In the world as it should be.)

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Toenails John
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:05 AM

Perfect use for defunct knives.
Give it to a Bodhran player to play his instrument with
(sorry couldn't resist)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:01 AM

I fought that knife business for years and finally my three kids got together and bought me a set of Henckel pros series knives. They are brilliant and although the require sharpening from time to time I have this automatic electric hone that puts an edge on them in a few seconds. When they are sharp there is nothing...wait, change that...there are not many things that are better. My daughter is a chef and she prefers Wustof knives.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 08:00 AM

Go down the Pound Shop, where everything cost £1. Plenty of good knives there.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:54 AM

sorry this should be in non music.

Subject: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 07:53 AM

Now I admit I'm not a cook, or chef and I have no training in the correct way to slice stuff, but a few years back - I thought I'd like a nice sharp knife to slice onions and stuff like that.

So complete schmuck that I am, I saw the Titanium knife set demonstration on the shopping channel and I asked for that for Xmas - convinced my problems would be over.


Call it defective technique or what you will, but imagine my surprise when the cleaver and the big knife all bounced off the onions - I could do it with the serrated bread knife. But hell I had a bread knife already.

So the titanium whatsits went into the drawer in disgrace, and not being a man to let the grass grow under my feet, a mere two or three years later, I took myself down to the cooking implements shop and bought a knife marked OXO Good grip. Now this is a good knife, and will cut most things - however it was £30 or so.

has anyone found a cheaper way to do it.   I wouldn't mind a couple of of other sharp knives now that I've got one that works. Its a nice thing to have.