Anti-Conscription Movement

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:35 AM

Sorry I also intended to mention the ZNet Creative Lyrics song database, which has 1,328 song lyrics related to progressive, anarchist, radical left themes.

Additionally, it has it's own "add a song lyric" page, where anyone can add song lyrics. It's pretty cool, and it might be of some help to those who are still lobbying for changes to the way the DT database is being maintained. It isn't a solution to adding mistakes to the database, of course. But it does suggest that a page can be devoted solely to adding lyrics to the database, and nothing else. If all additions were edited from a page like that, I would think making accurate, edited additions to the DT database could be done quite efficiently by volunteer Joe Clone types. But I digress.

Anyway, here is the very cool site:

http://zena.secureforum.com/interactive/creative/lyrics_frameset.cfm

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:19 AM

And getting back to the subject of thread, does anyone have any good information on songs of the Australian anti-conscription movement? The web has a lot of information on the movement itself which refers to songs, but I'm not finding much in the way of lyrics themselves.

Also, here are a few interesting sites I stumbled across when I went out looking for anti-conscription songs. Most don't have music content, but I thought might be of interest here in the thread.

One on WWI British COs in prison, here is an interesting set of postcards issued to gain support for COs:

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/prototype/redclyde/image017.htm

Many suffragettes were involved in British, Irish and Australian anti-conscription movements. Here are a few links related to them:

On Adela Pankhurst's British and Australian efforts:

http://www.wel.org.au/inkwel/ink964/964suffra.htm

Here is a fascinating page titled "Swarthmore College Peace Collection: Resources on Peace History" which among other fascinating details, has a link to a PBS documentary on WWII US pacifists and COs.

Swarthmore page is here:

http://www.swarthmore.edu/Library/peace/peacehis.htm#co

PBS' "The Good War" page is here:

http://www.pbs.org/itvs/thegoodwar/

And UC Berkeley has this interesting page from Emma Goldman's "Emma Goldman, Living My Life Volume Two CHAPTER XLV" which is all about her involvement with the No Conscription League:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/MyLife/chapter45.html

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Haruo
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:17 AM

Just a note to those doing searches for stuff on "Conscription" (songs or otherwise, here or elsewhere): Don't forget that (in the US anyway) we rarely called it "Conscription"; search for "Draft" (and be prepared to weed out the manuscripts, money orders, horses and beer), and the government outfit in charge was "Selective Service". Also a term worth searching for.

Liland

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 May 02 - 11:11 AM

Laughing at comments - Too funny! Bullying? That is hilarious! Maybe you ought to go back and look at what I've done since the war. It's posted here. I am always assuming that since I may challenge, but generally respect, other's choices that my own would have the same attention paid. I forget who I am talking to. So whether or not you respect me is pretty much a non-issue. And I don't see your stance/participation on anti-war activities. Just some vague innuendos about having done something.

I don't know what a war apologist is so you lost me there. I'm not apologizing for anything. I do firmly believe that as long as people don't meet on common ground to end something so terrible as war then war will continue. Warriors know it first hand and activists have the incredible gift of naievity to fuel the fire of change. Between us we can do something.

I spent my time with the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War, I protected peace marchers (still a warrior so was that OK?), demanded an end to the craziness, drove people to Canada, and a lot of other things. It took both sides to effect change. So for me it is important to have some credibility about the experience of war. If you haven't participated it leaves a bit of a hollow ring to it.

So you certainly don't have to respect anything GUEST. But you are certainly able to do it from the safety of anonymity - most of the activists I worked with were more than willing to stand up and put their names and faces on the line with us.

What I do certainly respect is the inalienable right of dissention - and GUEST you certainly have earned my respect for your ability to encourage that. It's one of the things I believe I went off to war for. Whether it's true or not is a moot point - as I've already gone and returned.

So on the issue of conscription - I think it is something that is a reality here in the US. I also believe that I have a choice about whether or not I will be conscripted, or my children too for that matter, and am willing to do whatever is necessary to prevent any of my kids being sent off to do battle. But if they choose to go I'll respect their decision to do so. I've a daughter who is a Sgt. in the US Army, I'm very proud of her and her accomplishments, I've a daughter in the Peace Movement in Oregon, and I'm just as proud of her. I've a son who opted not to join the military and was willing to go to Australia to avoid service, and I'm proud of him also.

So I think you don't respect because you don't know - and are unwilling to research to learn. Maybe I'm wrong but you haven't shown me much except your willingness to exercise your right to dissent. And to point a finger at me and say I'm a war monger or a supporter of the militaristic approach is only a half truth. I support the military. I also support the rights of Americans, and anyone else, to question the validity of the use of the military. And that does not include demeaning names for officials making those decisions.

Well I've babbled enough here - I have a child sexual abuse case to go to work on - that's my contribution to helping the world today.

Steve

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 10:39 AM

You know what Big Mick, threads about the military aren't about you, what you did or didn't do, and whether or not you feel like a failure. It just isn't.

Like I said, this seems to be a pretty gung-ho pro-military kind of place. Seems all some of you want vets here want to do is pick fights with anti-war activists voicing their opinions, in order to defend your personal choices to go soldiering.

I can agree to disagree, but I will not be coerced into respecting for the choice you made to become a soldier, or for what you did as a soldier. You and Norton1 seem to feel you have the right to bully people into respecting you because you were a soldier and know people who died in war. Very few human beings on this planet don't know someone who was killed in war, so that one doesn't automatically buy you respect. In fact, nothing in this life automatically buys a person respect. It gets earned. And believe me, neither of you have done a thing to earn mine.

Now, if you had come home from war and joined other anti-war veterans, I'd be more likely to listen to you. But your bullying tactics in this forum in the last 24 hours don't impress me in the least. You sound like a war apologist to me.

If you were, since the war, actively participating in the formation and maintenance of international peace organizations, development of non-violent methods to be used tactically in conjunction with non-cooperation and non-violent resistance tactics, or were involved in international diplomatic efforts or conflict resolution research--then I'd give your opinions some attention.

But as it is, from what I gather from some of you vet's and your supporter's posts here at Mudcat, all some of you seem to be doing is demanding respect you haven't earned because you think it is owed to you by everyone, just because you were a soldier. A lot of anti-war folks like me serve the international interests of humanity, not the petty nationalist interests of a single nation-state, especially the world's largest military superpower. So really, your demands for respect for "defending freedom" for the United States will continue to fall on deaf ears. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 May 02 - 10:25 AM

I agree, Art. A debate about the conscription issue is within the parameters of the thread, I would think. Not a debate on GUEST trollers.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 May 02 - 10:17 AM

This is an interesting discussion, begun by a named Guest. Let's not let ANON.GUEST hijack it.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 May 02 - 10:12 AM

Once again the GUEST creates a false predicate and feels smug about it. For your post to be valid, you would have to show that those of us who are, or have been, warriors are failing. I can speak for myself only, and let me assure you that I am not failing in most of the endeavors that I have chosen.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 10:06 AM

Actually, Norton1, I don't have to respect your choice to go to war. Now, you'd be closer to gaining my respect if you intended to create mutual respect between yourself and anti-war activists, rather than coerce respect for your choice to be a soldier.

For me, none of this is about pacifism. To be an anti-war activist, one need not be a pacifist. The most famous of all pacifists, Gandhi, was much too ardent an Indian nationalist for his pacifism to be truly effective. It was his blind spot, albeit a perfectly understandable one, considering his intent was to overthrow British rule through non-violent non-cooperation.

I believe we can learn a lot from Gandhi because he was a wise man, not a saint. Here is a quotation from him about the predicament you find yourself in:

"A warrior lives on his wars, whether offensive or defensive. And he suffers a collapse if he finds that his warring capacity is unwanted."

Your warring capacity is unwanted by me, so you will have to find another avenue to cultivate my respect for your choices.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 May 02 - 09:40 AM

GUEST - I don't know that we are "Pro-military" or not. But this forum does seem to respect those of us who went off to the craziness called war. And I've never asked anyone to respect the war - just respect for my choices. After all they were mine and I'm the one who lives with them - right?

And I can't speak for anyone but me - but I don't know of too many of the Vets here being pro-war. Read some of Big Mick's posts for confirmation of that. He is the most elequent of us - IMHO.

And this is the thread for it -

Steve

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 May 02 - 08:56 AM

21th century warfare is highly technical, and requires skilled and well-trained soldiers. At the same time, I think that there is a great deal to be said for having a military that is largely comprised of people that are not professional soldiers and really don't want to be there in the first place.

I am personally in favor of universal national service, which you can call conscription if you wish, with military service being one of the voluntary options available for those serving.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 07:42 AM

So, Mudcat looks pretty much like a pro-military music site. Lots of former military folk and war re-enactors, right?

Odd, for a folk music website. Not unheard of, but odd.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Teribus
Date: 29 May 02 - 05:59 AM

Paddymac - what you state is pretty much what happens - that is how the Pope ended up with his Swiss Guard, retained to this day.

There used to be a couple of sayings applicable to most military organisations:

"NEVER VOLUNTEER"
and
"One volunteer is worth ten pressed men"

Conscription in this day and age does not have a great deal to offer either the individual or the military forces the conscripts are foisted upon. Having said that, those who are vehemently against anything military should be thankful that volunteers still exist to fill the ranks, as those who are not prepared to defend, protect and bear the cost of that effort, may well find that their stance condemns them to live in a set of rules imposed by others. Part and parcel of this is to remember those who went before and paid the ultimate price for the freedoms so many take for granted today.

Cheers,

Bill.

Subject: RE: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: paddymac
Date: 29 May 02 - 04:52 AM

What happens when there are no more volunteers? Does victory go to the wealthiest "side" - the one able to buy the best or most mercenaries?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 May 02 - 12:04 AM

This is exactly the place for this type of thread, Noreen. Mudcat is about the music and the issues that spawn it. I would think that other appropriate songs to include would be the various and sundry protest songs of the 60's.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:37 PM

And then there are the musical anti-conscriptionists:

Franz Schubert Composer, b. at Vienna, 31 January, 1797; d. there 19 November, 1829. He studied under his father, and subsequently under Holzer and Salieri, and in 1807, was first boy soprano in the Lichtenthal choir. In October, 1808, he entered the Imperial Choristers School, and soon gave evidence of extraordinary musical genius as a composer, his first effort being a pianoforte duet, early in 1810. During 1811 and 1812 he produced many instrumental pieces, also a "Salve Regina" and a "Kyrie". He left the Choir School in November, 1812, and took up work as a schoolmaster in order to avoid conscription.

And of course, there's the 16th cent. Scots anti-conscriptionists, mentioned at Dick Gaughan's website article on Thomas Muir and the song Scots Wha Hae:

http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/songs/texts/muirnote.html

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:23 PM

And then this WWII folk song collector from the other side:

RINSHO KADEKARU 1920-1999- a biography Rinsho Kadekaru was born at Nakahara in Goeku Village in the centre of Okinawa on July 4th 1920. He began playing sanshin at the age of seven, and by the time he was 15 started to participate in his village's all night revelries known as mo-ashibi. These were outdoor parties that took place in open spaces on the outskirts of farming villages. Young people would sing, dance and drink, often until dawn, then do a full days hard labor in the fields, and party again the next night. The highest musical standards were maintained and Kadekaru soon gained a reputation for his sanshin playing and was often invited to perform at other village's jamborees.

Successive authorities attempted to ban the mo-ashibi, these unruly gatherings were thought to be immoral, but they flourished until just before the second world war. In the pre-war years there are stories of parents encouraging their children to take part in the mo-ashibi every night, in the hope they would fail the medical for military conscription due to exhaustion.

After the war, and the US occupation, the mo-ashibi was outlawed for good. Kadekaru stayed on the islands of Saipan and Tinian returning to Okinawa in 1949. His reputation had not been forgotten and he became one of the pivotal figures in the post-war Okinawa folk boom. He recorded nearly 250 songs for local record labels, more than any other musician.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:22 PM

Michaelr: Thanks fir the warnin' there, Michael, but since I don't know any better, we both know I'll just wade right into the middle of the scrum. But, hey... peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 10:09 PM

Then there is Andy Irvine's song Gladiators too, about the anti-conscription movement in Australia:

http://andyirvine.com/lyrics/gladiators.html

I understand the Aussies had a considerable cache of conscription songs. They seem to be universal across Europe at least. In a quick check on google, I came across:

Song type known in Romanian as 'cãtãnie' (approximate translation 'conscription' -in the village before to go into the military service, and in the army);

Greek rebetika songs on conscription and war;

Moravian folk ensemble called after its home town Bøeclav. Breclav is situated in the south of Moravia, at the border with Austria and Slovakia. It is lovely flat country, near the confluence of the rivers Morava and Dyje, the country of the vine, which stimulates both the nostalgia of long slow songs and the hot temper of lively conscription songs.

Subject: ADD: C for Conscription
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 02 - 09:39 PM

I did a search in the Mudcat and didn't find this anywhere (which could be my fault, but ah well)...

'C' FOR CONSCRIPTION

Well, it's 'C' for Conscription
And it's 'C' for Capitol Hill!
Well, it's 'C' for Conscription
And it's 'C' for Capitol Hill!
And it's 'C' for the Congress
That passed that goddamn bill!

[YODEL]

I'd rather be at home,
Even sleeping in a holler log,
I'd rather be here home,
Even sleeping in a holler log.
Than go to the army
Be treated like a dirty dog!

[YODEL]

'C' FOR CONSCRIPTION (PETE SEEGER/MILLARD LAMPELL) (1941)
(Tune: JIMMIE RODGERS, "Blue Yodel -- T For Texas")

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: michaelr
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:22 PM

Bobert, you're going to get into trouble again!

;-) Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 02 - 08:03 PM

Guest: Don't be too concerned about posting a non-music thread. That's why there is a BS category to begin with. Some folks get real offended by it but, hey, they are reading them, aren't they.

I agree that conscription just adds to an allready insane cycle of human behavior and have been known, on occasion, to get a tad worked up on the issue. It surprises me not that Albert Einstien was one of the original signers since he spent his life dwelling on possibilities rather than improbabilities. Peace is possible only after mankind sheds the misconception that it is improbable. With an ever shrinking planet, limited resources and a global economy, peace is a concept that this generation should be teaching rather than taking a pass on the challenge. How selfish. Seems all we (not me...) learned from the 60's is that it's better to be on the winning side than the moral side...

End of Bobert's mini-rant... but offered with respect and in the memory of those who have given their lives in what they felt was right. We can not change those failed decisions and events.

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 07:37 PM

I posted this as a counter-balance to the military minded "Memorial Day, A Look Back" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: Noreen
Date: 28 May 02 - 07:32 PM

Er- are you in the right place, guest? This is a music site...

Subject: Anti-Conscription Movement
From: GUEST,Peace Matriot
Date: 28 May 02 - 07:12 PM

Women were among the earliest anti-conscriptionists, and founded two well known international peace organizations still in business today, the War Resisters International, and Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.

THE ANTI-CONSCRIPTION MANIFESTO 1926 was signed among others by Henri Barbusse, Annie Besant, Martin Buber, Edward Carpenter, Miguel de Unamuno, Georges Duhamel, Albert Einstein, M K Gandhi, Kurt Hiller, Toyohiko Kagawa, George Lansbury, Arthur Ponsonby, Leonhard Ragaz, Romain Rolland, Bertrand Russell, Rabindranath Tagore, Fritz von Unruh, and H G Wells.

HERE IT IS:

'It is our belief that conscript armies, with their large corps of professional officers, are a grave menace to peace. Conscription involves the degradation of human personality, and the destruction of liberty. Barrack life, military drill, blind obedience to commands, however unjust and foolish they may be, and deliberate training for slaughter undermine respect for the individual, for democracy and human life. 'It is debasing human dignity to force men to give up their life, or to inflict death against their will or without conviction as to the justice of their action. The State which thinks itself entitled to force its citizens to go to war will never pay proper regard to the value and happiness of their lives in peace. Moreover, by conscription the militarist spirit of aggressiveness is implanted in the whole male population at the most impressionable age. By training for war men come to consider war as unavoidable and even desirable.'