BS: Poverty in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 09:31 PM

I should say I am an omniist and I am for almost everything other people are for here...but I want to go farther and crack some heads in the process...the drug dealers and the women who let the creepmen into their daughter's bedrooms, the creepmen themselves, the gangs who terrorize the old ladies in the housing projects, the slumlords, the teens who play hooky and defy anyone to educate them and then complain 20 years later about this and that, the media that permits astonishing vulgarity that is absolutely a cesspool for children, the schools that can't or won't insist on decency in clothing, language etc. Bus drivers who won't throw hoodlums bothering other people off the bus...I could go on. A lot of things need to be cleaned up at the same time that things are fixed and without cleaning up the cultural mess you might as well throw money down a rathole. Both things can happen at once. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:01 PM

Joe Offer, excellent post and course offering.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

I just looked up Washington State University..tuition and mandatory fees for one year are about $6300 X 4 that is about 26,000. I would hope and pray that most students could earn enough through work-study etc. to pay room and board and transportation. So they might have student loans for a 4 year state school of under $30K. Now, they could go for two perfectly fine years at a community college for much less. THey could live at home unless circumstances require them to get out. THey could live with a few friends.

Say you have a $30K loan at the end of 4 years, do not marry and do not have children or other people to support. Pay it off at $500/month (and think of what jobs you are likely to get before taking on a debt)or $6K a year and gone in 5 years. I am assuming a takehome pay of $1500/month and being able to live as a single person on $1000 a month, which I don't know why a healthy person could not. Does not include medical insurance so pick a major that will either teach you to do your own surgery or look for a job with benefits. Maybe you need a teaching degree...good benefits.

I don't worry about anything above and beyond a state college education with the first 2 years at a community college. If they can pull it off, fine, if not, they're still fine. Our problems are complex, and include insufficient funding on a number of levels but it also includes producing people without enough skills through both our ever devolving family structures and our educationally bankrupt educational system. I hope we haven't reached the day yet where young people can't fund at least the room and board poart of their education...through their own hard work and enterprise. That needs to be part of their vocational counseling, which if they don't have and they need some, send them my way. I have helped all sorts of people, refugees from places they had to eat rodents to survive..people from hard hard situations so it can be done. Not always. But quite often. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM

No, Dickey, I haven't said its "impossible" (your words, not mine) but based on the real world is is highly improbable... Do you actually know any folks who work with the poor??? if so, they will be glad to bring you up to speed...

Man, I'm glad that I ain't facing havin' to go to college again these days... Yeah, I came from a middle class family and I know it was s struggle fir my folks, even though I worked part-time all the way thru both of my degree programs....

Books were cheap back then and you could by used books for a song... Truth be known, I din't buy alot of my books but just hunted up professors who tested from their lectures and took good notes...

But realisticly, if I were faced with the kind of debt kids are faced with today to go to college I would have just taken a pass, thank you...

But, college ain't a real issue here since poor kids very rarely get to attend college... Finishing high school is a stretch...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:43 PM

When I was in graduate school from '90 to '92, my books and coursepaks ran about $1200 a semester. I imagine the cost is double that now. Maybe more than double.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:32 PM

So where does that leave students from a lower-middle class or middle class family? These are the students most likely to need the assistance because they do not want to add financial burden to parents with siblings still at home or perhaps they come from single parent homes where expenses are not shared with anyone or they simply fall through the cracks of eligibility criteria.

Criteria is very strict and, like welfare, unless you're starving, there is very little assistance except for loans. Why should eligibility be linked to family income? At 18 you are considered an adult, right? If able, most parents do help but not always. I help by providing boots, coats, book bags, computer, etc. but my ability to help is limited regardless of what I am presently earning. I can also provide board and room. Just how far is a parent expected to go? According to the criteria you provided, all the way.

The reality is that even working part-time, living at home and being subsidized by mom, the loan is already $70,000.00. Its interest free and she's young so she has plenty of time to pay it off. Most people aren't willing to take those kind of chances without guarantees.

Barry's right. One text can cost $300.00. Use texts are usually unacceptable. The profs want you to have current editions and these are rarely available. Why should university students study old material? It just doesn't work that way in real time.

What appears on paper has nothing to do with reality of obtaining a university education.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

That book thing is such a ripoff. There is no reason that professors can't get together and put stuff online for students to download say for $20, especially if they are being paid by the public in state universities.

Talk to the book companies. Professors often cannot do this--at least not without risking litigation--because of copyright issues. Many texts used in my classes were not "textbooks" per se but ordinary books.

But yes, it is a rip-off. Even buying used mine were usually between $400 and $600 a semester.

* * * * *

I'm sorry, but students should not have to hold down full-time or multiple jobs in addition to full-time school. I'm a good time manager and there is no way in Hell I could have done that and paid sufficient attention to my academic work. (I did work on campus, mind you, but part-time). Frankly, I don't give a crap what are the particulars of the figures, it's just gotten way too expensive and there is simply not enough aid. People should not be in debt for decades to pay for college.

I don't think one can make a blanket statement, however, about what kind of school students should or should not attend. I went to a small liberal arts school 3,000 miles from home and was perfectly happy. My mother called once a week and emailed sporadically (we had never had email until I went away to school); I never got homesick and never felt disconnected (at least not in a bad way). However, I would have felt lost and disconnected in a big state school. I'm currently taking library classes from a large university and I absolutely hate it--no individual consideration at all, one big fat administrative bureaucracy, totally impersonal. Some kids do better in a big university environment, some do better in a small college environment, one size definitely does not fit all. I would not have traded my undergraduate experience for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:02 PM

No it does not include food shelter or clothing or transportation or entertainment or medical expences or spending money or birthday cakes but it does cover the tuition and $300 for books at least in Georgia.

"pulling random figures from questionable data"

The sources were all given If you care to look.

"Have you ever tried to pay your own way through university, Dickie?"

Why would one have to with free tuition? Whoever said going to colege was cheap? Bobert seems to be saying it is impossible for poor people. I have pointed out that there are sources for enabling them to go to college. Is this a good thing or not?

All you are doing is sending a message to poor people telling them they cannot afford to go to college so they will be poor forever.



Low-income in-state students at all 3 campuses will be eligible

By CHRISTINE FREY

Students from low-income homes will be able to attend the University of Washington free under an ambitious scholarship program the university intends to launch next year.

The UW said Wednesday that it would cover the costs of tuition and fees for all in-state students who quality for Pell or State Need grants. The university's new undergraduate scholarship offer, called Husky Promise, is guaranteed -- no matter how much tuition increases.

The intent is to improve access to higher education, particularly for students who are academically prepared for college but can't afford it.

"This is a very simple statement and commitment to the citizens of Washington that the University of Washington will always be accessible to them regardless of their financial circumstances," UW President Mark Emmert said in an interview.

Any new, continuing or transfer student who is a resident of Washington and meets financial requirements is eligible. The university expects to support about 5,000 undergraduates a year through the scholarship program at its Seattle, Bothell and Tacoma campuses.

Students from families who are at or below 65 percent of the state's median income -- 235 percent of the federal poverty level -- can receive scholarships. That means a family of four with an income of $46,500 or less would be eligible.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/288403_uw12.html

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 02:37 PM

That book thing is such a ripoff. There is no reason that professors can't get together and put stuff online for students to download say for $20, especially if they are being paid by the public in state universities.   And there is no reason a book to be used one semester and then passed on (for heavens sakes tell your children to sell their books while they can the minute they are done with them..they will probably never look at them again)...to be hard-bound. The government needs to step in here and state professors need to produce cheaper textbooks that can be used in 80% of classes. What Harvard does is up to them. Speaking of which, I think it is best for almost everyone to go to their state colleges..it is just to easy to disconnect from the family if you can't afford trips back and forth. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:43 PM

I have a daughter finishing up her 2nd year & a son going in, $2,050 doesn't slice bread, doesn't come close. With her high grades, scholarships & grants she's already up to her elbows in loans, she works there too. Books $300 that the cost of ONE.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:30 PM

Dickey - "... a $300 per academic book allowance," covers what percentage of the annual required reading at a college or university? One or two texts require that much money! Annually, as many as 30+ books may be required. Do the math. Add that to tuition and living expenses.

Any student from a low income home that is able to achieve a 3.00 or better in high school should be given the opportunity to attend university with books and tuition covered.

I have a daughter that is a A+ university student and is looking at $70,000.00 in student loans. I tell her its O.K., she's young, its an investment in her future but ...

Have you ever tried to pay your own way through university, Dickie?

You should discuss something you actually know something about instead of pulling random figures from questionable data.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:59 PM

*These stats are national... You are, as per usaul, trying to compare apples with oranges*

Recently, processes such as the FAFSA (Free Application for Student Aid), have allowed poorer students to gain a college education through government subsidies designed to eliminate the difference between the rich and poor.

The last 15 years has seen a dramatic rise in the demand for private tuition with a large proportion coming from poorer families who have seen the need for manual or semi-skilled work decrease and who correctly view the education of their children as the only way of their 'breaking free' of the inevitable long queues for a handful of lowly-paid jobs. The matter is often exacerbated by these children being in excessively large classes in schools which fail to attract the best teachers.

In this respect tuition has turned from the private governor/governess of the Victorian era providing education to a privileged few to a non-elitist and cosmopolitan service for the masses.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuition

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:56 AM

Dickey,

Get a life... These stats are national... You are, as per usaul, trying to compare apples with oranges...

Now back to the ***discussion***....

Scrump,

Let me help you with it...

Barry,

Ditto...

McG,

Ditto...

Opps, my 5 minutes of after lunch pudder time is up...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:46 AM

Poverty in the USA - wasn't that a hit for John Mellencamp?

... I'll get me coat :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:27 AM

"*Only 3% of students at the top 146 colleges come from families in the bottom income quartile; only 10% come from the bottom half..."

In the state of Georgia, any student who graduates from high school with at least a B average is eligible for free college tuition and a $300 per academic book allowance at any of the state's colleges or universities.

http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-South/Atlanta-Education-and-Research.html

More than 16,000 score free college tuition
By Marie Szaniszlo Boston Post September 16, 2006

State education officials yesterday mailed letters to each of the 16,169 class of 2007 high school students who qualify for a John and Abigail Adams Scholarship, offering four years of free tuition at any public Massachusetts college.

"*A 2 child family earning $50,000 gets $2,050 or 1/5 the cost of public college for one kid."

Oklahoma Higher Learning Access Program: Oklahoma residents with a family income of less than $50,000 at the time of enrollment who maintain a 2.5 high school GPA and take a set of required college-preparatory courses can receive free tuition at Oklahoma public institutions and partial tuition at Oklahoma private schools if they maintain a 1.7 GPA for their first 30 credit hours and a 2.0 GPA after that.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060408/8free_tuition.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:51 AM

I'm not puzzled McGrath, just pissed because there shouldn't be. There's no need for it, except that it does give the very wealthy a good veiw.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:45 AM

I'm still puzzled why there should be any poverty in a country as wealthy as the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, Janie...

I vividly remember my 10 some years workin' as a social worker in Adult Services and I remember, and you will be able to relate to this, the mumber of social workers, case managers, eligibility workers, etc. who had thrown in the towel... Sure, they were still employed but they did the bare minimum... Looking back, I kinda understand how that could happen... With the Reagan administration's dismantling the Great Society programs by starving them to death folks did become disallusioned...

Like you, I wouldn't give in... I'd just try to find other rersources... I had ministers who would hide if they saw me comin' 'cause they knew I was goinna ask them to strongarm their congregations againn for this or that... But it did get to that point where we were asked to fight the good fight without any resources left and, yeah, it was frusterating...

A lot of good social wokers burned out leaving the ones who had allready figured out that they could keep their lousy paying jobs as long as they din't put too much of their emotional self on the line...

But failure??? Yeah, okay... But on the other hand, it wasn't a fight that we could win without the political will to win...

More later...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:47 AM

Janie, you & the few others didn't fail. I remember my mother telling me a bit of rememberences she'd say "oh & there was a time when things were really bad & this one woman, I can't remember her name but if it weren't for her I don't think I could've made it, I'll never forget her". The little things count & they're remembered.

Another thing is that the poor may be under-educated but they're not stupid for the most part. They do know when they're being pried upon, taking advantage of, been pushed out the door & passed over for the sake of other government programs. They know that their kids go to war & die in a rich persons battle for bucks. But there's not much to do about it when the maiin struggle is to survive & they know that too, though some may not be fully aware of how they get used & abused.

Great that Havard is doing something about it's enrollments. Richard's right, education should be a right, just like health care, not just a benifit for the rich. It's funny though. I went to school in Boston across the river from Harvard, with what I learnt in the school of hard knocks Harvard wouldn't have let me in to qualify to clean their door steps & why should they have. But kids no matter where they come from should be given the education today that would have at least have put them on a level playing as the others that afforded themselves a high priced education. And that is still not happening.

Yes Frank, in poor & poorer countries the poverty is even bad & worst. But to have it in a rich country is a shame. And twice as shameful when those rich countries not only don't come to the aid of those nations like Africa, India, Haiti..... but won't even come to the aid of their own first. Seeing this why would anyone else hold their breath waiting. Reagan told the world to "just say no" actually he was telling the world no as well as telling his own people no, no aid, no help, no money!
Bush was embrassed into putting $10,000 out of his own pocket for the folks in New Orleans, an actress put up 1 million. How dam cheap can a nation be with it's own?

Poverty with the vets is just another war of words. There are thousands of ex-military living on the streets along side of thousands of phycially, mentally & medically challanged people that are treated as criminals. Begging, working for food & dying on doorsteps trying to find more permanent places of shelter & safety by getting themselves into a hospital or prison. Imagine that, so desperate to survive in the comfort of some safety that they'd prefere prison to what's available though there own government, and some of them are only there because they fought for their government. We do not look after our own and again they know it.

I used to think that my mother was always cooking. Every time someone knocked on the door when my step dad wasn't home she'd always answer it with a big kitchen knife in her hand. Post tramatic stress comes to mind when I think about it. Living in poverty is sometimes like living in a war zone. It's a wonder that some can function at all & the price they pay is high & the price that it costs the rest of U.S. is even higher in the long run, I would think. We are a short sighted people.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:22 AM

Dickey, it shouldn't be about charity, education should be a right.

I am amazed and delighted by much of the posting on this thread.

But surely experience should have taught that hardly anyone at the very bottom is helped by believing that "God helps those who help themselves" (or analogues).

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:14 PM

"*The US governemnt soends $500,00 on 8 security screeners who speed execs from Wall Street helipad to American's JFK terminal..."

A. Airline passenger pay for security screening:

AVIATION SECURITY FEES

In total, the Committee has assumed the collection of $1,990,000,000 in aviation security user fees in addition to the $250,000,000 in aviation security user fees that must automatically be deposited in the Aviation Security Capital Fund. The Committee assumes that, of this total, $1,640,000,000 shall be collected from aviation passengers and $350,000,000 shall be collected from the airlines. The Committee cannot support the budget request to increase passenger security fees by $3.00, raising the fee from $2.50 to $5.50 on the first leg of each flight and retain the $2.50 charge for a second leg if the passenger is connecting.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:o7Q_Uptw8CoJ:thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/%3F%26sid%3Dcp109QuAhF%26refer%3D%26r_n%3Dhr079.109%26db_id%3D109%26item%3D%26sel%3DTOC_158414%26+tsa+airport+fees&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us&lr=lang_en

B. Screening at the "Wall Street" Helipad is done by a private firm:

Under the Transportation Security Administration the aforementioned agreement allows US Helicopter to utilize the TSA's Screening Partnership Program (SPP) for the establishment of security screening operations to support US Helicopter's airport shuttle service at the East 34th Street Heliport in New York City. US Helicopter's expanded service from the East 34th Street Heliport will fall under the same TSA security regulations as all commercial flights in the United
States. All passengers, carry-on baggage and checked baggage will be screened in accordance with the TSA's standards for commercial operators. US Helicopter, under the contract with McNeil Security, will provide the screening personnel and the TSA will supply the certified security equipment and oversight, affording travelers with the utmost in convenience, security and service at the East 34th Street Heliport.

http://www.flyush.com/pdfs/USH_Jan04_07_PR.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Dickey
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:36 PM

*Bush's tax cuts give a 2-child family earning $1M an extra $86
,722- or Harvard tuition, room, board and an iMac G5 for both kids...

*A 2 child family earning $50,000 gets $2,050 or 1/5 the cost of public college for one kid...

Harvard Says Poor Parents Won't Have to Pay

Aiming to get more low-income students to enroll, Harvard will stop asking parents who earn less than $40,000 to make any contribution toward the cost of their children's education. Harvard will also reduce the amount it seeks from parents with incomes between $40,000 and $60,000.
        
"When only 10 percent of the students in elite higher education come from families in the lower half of the income distribution, we are not doing enough," said Lawrence H. Summers, president of Harvard, who will announce the financial aid changes at a meeting of the American Council on Education in Miami Beach today.

Dr. Summers said that higher education, rather than being an engine of social mobility, may be inhibiting it because of the wide gap in college attendance for students from different income classes.

Harvard officials said they believed theirs would be the first selective college to remove the parental contribution for low-income students, though some colleges do this unofficially to attract students they want.

At Harvard, the idea of eliminating the parental contribution grew out of focus groups with lower-income students last fall. University officials found that many of the students were paying some or all of their parents' share themselves.

Peter M. Brown, a junior from Oklahoma who participated in the focus groups, said that was true for him. One of seven children whose father died in 1991 and whose mother works as a schoolteacher, he said he did not show his mother the bill for the parental contribution. Last year it was nearly $3,000.

Only 7 percent of Harvard undergraduates are from families with earnings in the lowest quarter of American household incomes, and 16 percent are from the bottom half. Nearly three-quarters are from families with earnings in the top quarter.

Dr. Summers said that the numbers at most other selective private colleges were similar.

Harvard's tuition this year is $26,066. With room, board, books and other expenses, the total can reach $44,000. Harvard provides about $80 million in scholarship aid.

Parents who earn less than $40,000 are now asked to contribute an average of $2,300. That figure will drop to zero under the new plan, which begins in the fall. Parents with incomes of $40,000 to $60,000 will have their contributions cut to an average of $2,250, from an average of $3,500.

Students will still be expected to contribute by working over the summer and in the school year.

Harvard officials said they expected the new initiative to cost about $2 million next year and to help about 1,000 of the 6,600 undergraduates.

As tuition and other costs at most colleges have risen faster than family incomes have, students have increasingly turned to loans.

Harvard and other universities with large endowments have given more grants in recent years, reducing the amount students must borrow. Princeton has removed loans from its aid packages for all students. Harvard has reduced loans but allows students to use them to offset the amount of work they must do. This year, Harvard graduates will have an average debt of $8,800, compared with $14,600 in 1998.

Mr. Brown, the junior, said his mother's entire salary was well below the cost of a year at Harvard. In the past, he has simply asked her what she felt she could contribute.

"She'd give me a figure," he said. "It was not as much as the school asked. I would say, `I really appreciate that,' and then I would make up the difference."

He said he led a "spartan life" at school to save money. Besides spending about 10 hours a week on a federally subsidized campus job, he is always looking for other jobs or studies that pay participants.

Under the new plan, he said, "I won't have to look every week for people who need boxes moved or other things."

Brian K. Fitzgerald, staff director for the Advisory Committee on Student Financial Assistance, said Mr. Brown's situation was not unusual.

"Lots of kids, including middle-income kids, are making up that parental expectation out of their own earnings," said Dr. Fitzgerald, whose committee advises Congress.

Under federal financial aid programs, parents who earn less than $15,000 a year are not expected to contribute to their children's college education; the advisory committee has recommended that that figure be raised to $35,000, or at least $25,000.

"The reality today is that in families earning $35,000, those parental contributions are simply not there," Dr. Fitzgerald said.

Dr. Summers said that making college more affordable for low-income, high-ability students would address only part of the problem. The more difficult challenge, he said, was giving lower-achieving, low-income students the support they need to qualify academically.

He said Harvard would expand its recruitment of lower-income students. Harvard is also starting a summer academy this year for high school students from low-income families.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 09:06 PM

Best idea I've heard in a long time, dianavan. Thanks!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:36 PM

"They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within ..."

I wouldn't call it boring. I would call it sacrificing your soul ...

I would call it endless days of banging your head against the wall with little or no thanks.

I would call it ...

oh never mind.

Go play some music and dance and give thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:16 PM

Sorry for my melt down last night. It has been an exceptionally difficult week in the brave new world of mental health reform in my neck of the woods, where we are transitioning from publicly provided services to privatization. Doesn't cost the taxpayers nearly as much. Of course, we don't deliver nearly as much either. It seems there is money to made from serving the poor, as long as you cherry-pick your clientele and severely restrict what services you are willing to offer. a number of companies have swooped in. My formerly public clinic was divested from the public system about 9 months ago. I work for a corporatation for the first time in my adult life. It's not a non-profit, its a not-for-profit, which means they need to make a profit, but they don't distribute it to share holders. In theory it goes back into the company so services can be expanded. Nice theory. They made me a manager not long after that. So I get to manage the shrinking of services to my community The whole thing stinks. I hate it.

When I say I have failed, that's what I'm referring to-those statistics Bobert posted, and others available in public policy journals, School of Social Work research papers, government statistics, and many other scholarly sources. Bobert, you have failed. All of us who have worked in the public arena since the mid 1970's as social workers, educators, public health providers, advocates, lobbyists, Catholic Charities workers-the list is long-have failed to be effective as change agents on a societal level. The tide is still running out. Individually have we perhaps been able to be helpful resources to a few people our lives have touched? Yes. And that does matter. But have we, by oour individual or collective efforts been able to exert enough influence on public policy such that the numbers on homelessness and malnutrition have dropped? Have we made a difference on a scale that matters in society?

No.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:10 PM

Now I usually don't get all that excited over polls and stats but thought I'd share just a few that were compiled by the "Mother Jones" staff and published in their June,'06 issue...

*In 1985 the Forbes 400 were worth $221B combined. Today they're worth $1,13T- more that the GDP of Canada...

*Among the Forbes 400 who gave to the 2004 presidential campaign, 72% gave to Bush...

*In 2005 there were 9 million American millionares, a 62% increase since 2002...

*In 2005, 25.7M Ameericans reieved Food Stamps, a 49% increase since 2000...

*Only estates worth more than $1.5M are taxed. That's less than 1% of all estates. Still, repealing the estate tax will cost the governemnt at least $55B a year...

*Only 3% of students at the top 146 colleges come from families in the bottom income quartile; only 10% come from the bottom half...

*Bush's tax cuts give a 2-child family earning $1M an extra $86
,722- or Harvard tuition, room, board and an iMac G5 for both kids...

*A 2 child family earning $50,000 gets $2,050 or 1/5 the cost of public college for one kid...

*Adjusted for inflation, the federal minimum wage has fallen 43% since its peak in 1968...

*If the $5.15 hourly minumum wage had risen at the same rate as CEO compensation since 1990, it would now satnd at $23.03...

*A minumum wage employeee who works 40 hours a week for 51 weeks goes home with $10,506 before taxes...

*Such a worker would take 7,000 years to earn Oraccle CEO Larry Ellison's yearly compensation...

*Ellison recently posed in "Vanity Fair" with his $300M, 454 foot yacht, which he noted is "realyy only the size of a large house"...

*The $17,530 earned by the average Wal-Mart employeee last year was $1,820 below the poverty line for a family of four....

*5 of America's 10 richest people are Wal-Mart heirs...

*The US governemnt soends $500,00 on 8 security screeners who speed execs from Wall Street helipad to American's JFK terminal...

*Poor Americans spend 1/4 of their income on energy costs...

*Exxon's 20005 profit of $36.13B is more that the GNP of 2/3 of the world's nations...

*CEO pay among military contractors has tripled since 2001. For David Brooks, the CEO of bulletproff vest maker DHB, it's risen 13,233%...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, there were more than the ones I picked out but I thought that since the discussion has touched on just how the ruling class has never had it so good while the poor get poorer, I thought some might find some of these stats intersting...

Do they tell the entire story??? Well, not excatly but they do tell a good portion of it...

More later...

No, not more stats...

Bobert

p.s. Before one of the loyal Bushites jump down my throat and bring up the fact that I haven't been a stats kinda guy, please reread the intro of this post...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bee
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

Stringsinger, as someone else pointed out earlier, just because someone else has lost a leg doesn't make a person feel good about losing a hand.

I understand burnout, and I urge anyone who experiences it to make every possible effort to get away from the cause for a while. I saved enough money (not much, trust me) to leave my job and take a six month leave once, and it was the best thing. I came back with perspective and energy, which I had lost.

I spent over a quarter century working with 3 to 12 year old poor or low income city kids, who acted out and fought and sometimes physically attacked their caregivers, but were nonetheless children with hope and with prospects, if they could be allowed to see them. I've seen most of them grow up and make a good life, and a few die by violence, and a few end in jail.

The best, most treasured compliment I've ever been offered was from a prematurely cynical eight year old girl, who one afternoon looked at me thoughtfully and said: "You really like kids, don't you. A lot of teachers don't like kids, but you do."

If you're too burnt out, you can't feel caring.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:19 AM

There is intellectual poverty, emotional poverty and physical health poverty in the States.
This is exacerbated by financial poverty.

But people in the States don't really know poverty the way other countries have experienced it. Africa, India, Haiti.....

Americans are still economically rich compared to many countries but more poor in other ways.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Scoville
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 10:28 AM

I can't remember the numbers now, but I recently read an article and was myself shocked to realize how post high school vocational and college aid have shrunk under the auspices of the shrub administration. It was either by 25 or 50%. Either number is huge.

We think this is a thinly-disguised form of the draft--drive kids into the armed forces by taking away their college aid so they feel like they have no alternatives.

As always: A rich man's war and a poor man's fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:36 AM

Tho I have to get to work and don't have much time I'd just like to say to you, Janie, that as long as you contininue to fight, you will never be a failure and...

... even if you do get "burned out" (something I know too much about) yer still not a failure...

The love you give to people, even the tough love variety, is what you have to give... That makes you a success...

The only failure is within this punitive, self serviing system that serves the ruling class which in itself is the *real welfare class* at the espense of the poor... Yes, it is the Biss Hog's of the US that can't see that they are the ones benefiting from the labors of everyone else and has a "Let them eat cake" attitude...

More later...

Hang in their, Janie...

(((hugs)))

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wordsmith
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:01 AM

Janie, there's no way in Heaven that you are or were a failure. I have followed this discussion from start to finish, and can say you, and Bobert have been in the trenches, yet it appears you have done well for yourselves and your clients. Burnout is a major result in many who work in Social Services or Public Health. It is at times a thankless job, fraught with many obstacles, poor pay, little cooperation at times between agencies, sometimes obstruction by those agencies...I've met many a mean, rotten civil servant, and I use the term "civil" loosely, in my encounters with the system...and neither you or Bobert are disgruntled or discouraged or burned-out. I would've loved to have worked with you both. What we need is more social workers like you...and MORE MONEY. What is also needed is more historical perspective like the two of you were providing.

I worked in Public Health for a few years. My first job in it was for a Family Planning clinic in upstate NY. I was a clinic manager, which really meant doing everything at one point of time or another...in addition to being in charge. It was during the Reagan administration, so I know Bobert is spot-on, to borrow a British expression. I took a $2000 cut in pay to accept the position. All of my friends were making $11,000 starting pay. You do the math...it was huge! But, I wanted to do it. I loved that job.

Back then, Family Planning clinics were allowed to counsel clients on all forms of birth control...we gave out free samples generously...and we did pregnancy testing as well as treat STDs...there were only a few then...in all of NY state there were only 2 remaining cases of syphilis! Gonorrhea was just starting to become sensitive to penicillin...and there were the usual female disorders....if only we'd known then that HPV causes most cervical cancers...still we treated that, too. AIDS was not even an inkling. We didn't know about it.

I got a real bird's eye view of social services; we had our own social worker, and she was a peach. Our staff was multicultural...we had blacks, hispanics, and whites. Our clients were also from different age groups...I can't say how old our youngest was, but our oldest patients were in their 60's - 70's...getting pap smears and breast checks. We had a sliding scale, so we serviced any and all who came through our doors. We did have some rich people.

I don't have time to get into more specifics, but we did patient education with every prescription or IUD or any of our procedures. It was, at times, an uphill battle...eyes would roll...sighs were audible, and yet one could feel good knowing that you'd done your best. You can give out tools. You cannot make someone use them. We did not do abortions, but we were allowed to do referrals...at least up until I left and went on to another job in Public Health. Things changed rapidly. The first to go was our overtime...such as it was. We were obliged to fulfill county, state and federal mandates. Usually if we fulfilled the federal ones all others were covered. One of the mandates said that we needed to contact individuals under certain circumstances at least three different times of the day...morning, noon, and night...and since most of the clinics only ran till 5PM, we'd have to bring our work home with us...for which we were reimbursed. Needless to say, we all kept doing that part of our jobs despite no longer being paid for it. I could go on, but I did see what the poor, the working poor, and middle-class, upper-class get out of life.

I know I'm rambling. What I wanted to say is that it seems no matter what it's called, health, education, and welfare always get the most cuts...while, as someone far more eloquently pointed out, the rich companies get tax breaks, breaks on pollution, breaks on just about everything...and the poor? They get trounced on. I, too, btw, have been on both sides of the counter. It's not pretty. But, please, keep this thread going. It is important and very informative. And, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:48 AM

Janie, you never fail when you give what you can.

Sometime, I too, feel like beating my head against the wall. We work in outdated, underfunded institutions run by bureaucrats who have no idea what its like on the front lines.

melf said it well. Give what you can and remember to do it with respect.

Mary - I thought I was the only one with parents that seemed to discourage every available opportunity I had. I was offerred a scholarship to a private school when I was 14. My parents came up with all kinds of excuses. I wasn't allowed to go. In the end, it was because they were afraid they'd lose me. They thought that they might not be good enough for me if I associated with the upper classes.

I didn't go to universitsy until I was nearly forty.

I look back and remember the people who encouraged me - the public librarian, the dentist, the mother of the grocer, the 'outsider' who married my uncle, my grade 3 teacher and last but not least, the step-father of my children.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 10:15 PM

It is the system - or governments - that have failed, not you. You have done what you could, and continue to do what you can. I'm sure you have been a positive force in many lives, whether you see it or not.

I teach school, and most of the kids I teach live in the kinds of circumstances we've been talking about. For most of them, all I can do is haul myself out of bed in the morning and be there for them when they come dragging in late and sleepy and hungry. Beyond that, it often seems I don't have much to offer them - but for many of them, despite their angry outbursts or displays of indifference, it seems to mean a lot that someone's there who's going to treat them with a measure of respect, and who cares enough to push them to try to accomplish something, whether they do or not. And mostly they don't, by the usual standards, anyway. Most of them will still quit school by grade eleven, most will have troubled lives. But maybe their lives would be worse without having had the experience of being treated with respect and being cared about by a few people who were paid to respect and care about them. I imagine this is analagous to the situation you work in, to a degree ...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 09:37 PM

I agree, meself. And I think many of mg's ideas are very helpful, especially for young people who already have a few eggs in their baskets of resources. And whose life experience has not already killed hope and maimed the psyche or personality.

AND it is alll being done and is has been done. However, what we as a society mostly offer is false hope. Why? Because we consistently provide too little to get the job done, and even that is usually offered too late.

As dianavan said, there are a number of people who experience poverty as a terrible but temporary time in their lives. These are the people who may go through a terrible patch of not having financial resources-but like dianavan, they had important other resources on which to draw that were also a necessary component of making it out of that state of financial poverty.

It is true that there was a time when anyone who wanted to go to college could problaby find the financial aid in grants and loans to do so. But that is a thing of the past. I can't remember the numbers now, but I recently read an article and was myself shocked to realize how post high school vocational and college aid have shrunk under the auspices of the shrub administration. It was either by 25 or 50%. Either number is huge.   

Suppose you do get the financial aid pulled together. Lets say you are a divorced mother of two. Chances are excellent you are going to be on a waiting list for help with child care costs. Or a child gets sick and you have to miss a week of classes, and then you can never get caught up because you also work at the local convenience store. Swap child care? With whom? Your Mom's a crackhead so you sure aren't going to leave the kids with her, and all the other women you know are at work or at school when you are. And then the timing chain breaks on your 20 year old car.

There are hundreds of thousands of really, really destitute people living in these United States. When they try to borrow or barter with one another, more times than not they end up preying on each other. We are talking desparate straits here.

As a society, we have allowed people to get so far down in a hole that there really is no light to be seen. If we happen to notice them down in that hole, we throw peanuts down the hole. Or we drop down a rope and pull them halfway up then leave them dangling till the rope rots and they drop back down again.

Money talks. IT. TAKES. MONEY. Whether it is a program that provides services, training or education, child care, car repare or bus tickets, or direct financial aid.

IT. TAKES. MONEY.

And the richest country the world has ever known won't fork over.

I am weary down to the depths of my soul of being in this battle. This not an interesting discussion to me. This is the work of my life. And I step back to see what I have accomplished in concert with many others on a number of fronts.

What I look for the results of the fruits my labor, I see that I have been a failure.

Just think how much more weary and soul sick are the men, women and children whose lives we are discussing here.

I think I need to bow out of this conversation for awhile.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: mg
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:32 PM

Lest anyone think I grew up in the sheltered classes, I grew up working class. My father was a postman and my mother was a telephone operator when I was young. They had each grown up in dire poverty. I was on my way to prosperity and actually was prosperous for quite some time but essentially ran out of steam so have had to backtrack quite a bit. But there is this expectation of hopelessness that was passed down even to my generation, that the potato famine would come back, that we'd have to be sharecroppers again as on my mother's side. I had to turn down incredible opportunities because of my parents' beliefs..I was one of those clever but not deep students who could ace all these tests. I turned down hundreds of thousands of dolalrs in scholarships all over the country, and thought, despite being a National Merit finalist, that I would be lucky if I went to the community college. So there is that going on all over the place, from families, from peer groups who are threatened if their members move on, from gangs, from religions who see poverty as a preferred state, as my local Catholic church did. There are chains that can be broken. Sometimes it is easier than you think. Start with the easy ones. The ones that have the motivation and energy and just need the information and encouragement.

Also contact your local county extension agent and get him or her working on the rat problem or cockroach or whatever. And get even the urban children into 4H if you can, and find the vocational teachers, the home ec teachers in the schools. Don't bother with some of the others..they are too focused on the few kids going to Harvard all too often. Coordinate with your employment security department and your community colleges. Get some retired women in to teach some of these mothers how to cook and can and sew. Get people to double up to save rent. T here is no reason someone has to spend $600 a month for a single person on rent and utilities. I have a room for rent for $250..it would be more in a big city.

If you are working with high school students, see that they graduate with a CNA if possible. Almost guaranteed jobs anywhere.

Like I said, I will correspond with the fundamentally OK people..if they have severe drug abuse or mental handicaps I am not the one to help them...I would of course have to cc someone with any conversations so they could be assured I am not abusing etc.

YIKES..when I am the positive person in a conversation, it is a pretty dismal situation....I'm pretty realistic and pragmatic and not given to painting rosy pictures. mg


PS: What would the Mormons do when faced when these situations? I bet they have ways of handling these things. Contact them. They have some very practical wyas of doing things and have thrift stores and stuff. Also, just put out the word of what particular people need...work clothes, or whatever. Sometimes stuff can be gotten here and there..toys for children..school clothes...can be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:19 PM

What I have gleaned from this discussion is that folks come from different types of poverty depending on the environment.

ie: The Hillside housing project in south Richmond is a completely different environment than small town Washington State or Rural Manitoba.

Different folks need different types of help and the best we can do is give what we can and pressure the government to provide for those in need. There really is no excuse for children to go hungry or homeless in the U.S., Canada or Britain.

Stop spending billions on useless wars that cause more misery and start spending those dollars at home. Enough is enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 08:06 PM

"We need to provide safe places for these people"

We need to provide a safe place for everyone. The place we all live in and work in and relax in. That sounds like some impossible dream? It's not, it's how things really can be, and for enormous numbers of people round the world it's more or less how things actually are. I'm sure that applies in a lot of places inside the USA as well as outside it.

And don't believe anyone who suggests the old institutions - the asylums, the sub-normality hospitals and all that, were "safe places". The crime was that all too often the money saved by shutting them down wasn't used to provide proper help outside the institutions, it was stolen to give tax cuts to people who didn't need tax cuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:41 PM

Don't dismiss what mg is saying - I think you're talking PAST each other. The things she's talking about are going to be useful to a number of people, and no doubt there are a number of people that could benefit from her sort of advice and approach - but it's not one-size-fits-all ... her approach is not THE answer, but it is an answer that would work for some people. Obviously, it is not the answer for everyone ... I don't think you're in disagreement, necessarily; it's more like you're talking about different aspects of the same issue ... if you see what I mean ...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 07:23 PM

mg--I can't decide whether to hug you or to shake you.

You are clearly a good-hearted soul.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

Ummmmm, not to harp on this one, mg.... But your perspective represents either the very small percentage of folks who grew up in poverty and somehow beat the odds or a more middle class perspective of how folks *ought* to be able to solve problems...

While this may have worked for you it is like speaking Greek to those who, like Barry, grew up in poverty...

No disrespect intended but you seem to be preachin' to folks who ain't got a clue... I'm sure you mean well but I don't think you quite get the disconnect...

I learned this lesson when I was about 20... Yeah, I came from a middle class family and inspite of my family's activism in the civil right movement there were some lessons I needed to learn... I was in my 3rd year in college and got hired By R-CAP (Richmond Community Action Program) and assigned to work in the Hillside housing project in south Richmond... Some of the stuff I did was more like case worker stuff but I also became involverd in NWRO (National Welfare Rights Organization) and organized a chapter in that housing project and did some other orgainizing with the anti-war movement and civil rights stuff and, well, these activities led me to bring both the Black Panthers and White Panthers to Richmond for some rallies and get-togethers...

It was at one of these get-togethers at the housing project with some real ***together*** White Panther folks and we had 'bout 40 folks packed into one apartment and they made their pitch and afterwards I said something that was meant to be halpful but came of as condescending and...

...this dude from the White Panthers took me aside and said, "Hey, man, yer talking *to* these people and not *with* them..."

I remember the feelings of utter embarassment... And, yeah, I was defensive... And, yeah, it took a few days for that lesson to set in but it set in like concrete... And it was the best lesson I can honestly say that came to me from the 60's...

Again, I mean no disrespect here, mg, but you can't preach to folks who haven't been exposed to what you may have been exposed to... Yeah, yer heart can be 100% pure, yer motives 100% pure but, bottom line, if you are to be effective, you can have all the great ideas in the world, yer gonna have jst take folks the way you find them...

I've mentioned something that an radical, young, black minster once told me and it goes like this "You can have sex with a gotilla but you are going to have to do it on the gorilla's terms..."

I don't know if this makes any sense, mg, but it is the cornerstone of being effective in any position where you are dealing with folks who grew up in poverty...

Again, I mean absolutlely no disrespect here...

Ummmmmm, I keep tryin' to get to that "downward mobilty" that Janie has talked about with a case study of one of my formed clients and I will get there but it seems that with this thread there seems to be a bit of "bringing up the rear" and that's okay... Hey, here we are pushing 120 posts and, as far as I can see, we haven't had any trolls jump in and try to mess stuff up so I think we're doin' purdy good... Even if it mean a little back tracking...

See... This post is a prime example of what that guy from the White Panthers was talking 'bout... Hey, ya' gotta take it as it comes and talk with folks...

Yeah, when this thread was started I kinda had an outline in mind of stuff I thought would be benefical and while I still have things I wnat to share, I'm just going to let the thread come to me and see where I can throw some stuff into the mix that will hopefully be informative and, even better, helpfull...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:40 PM

mg--there are some pretty dismal hollers where the coal mines have gone all mechanized in West Virginia--but I think it would be much, much tougher in large urban areas.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:24 PM

It is really really important to get the message out to students that there is hope, and there are ways out of a trap. Some places are harder than others, say Appalachia or remote Indian reservations. It may be impossible for some, but not for all. Our ancestors did arrive here in poverty, unless they were Native, and they escaped unbelieveably bad circumstances. For one thing, almost everyone can get a high school degree now, even if they have dropped out. They can go to a community college hopefully. Everyone who thinks things are hopeless needs to talk to the folks at the community colleges. That is their mission, at least in Washington....to provide these opportunities to people. Some classes are free. There are loans and grants and work study. I have worked at 2 colleges who didn't even put out notices for work study students because there were so many more jobs than students to fill them. There were community college courses going unfilled sometimes for lack of students. There is at least one state ( I think it was North Carolina) where someone..the governor??? said students can graduate from a 4 year college debt free by working 10 hours a week and taking the grants available and going to a community college the first two years.

One of the tragedies is not having sufficient resources, but another great tragedy is there being resources that people do not know about. They have to know the plan, the escape route, from these situations. They have to know how a pregnancy can certainly alter their plans and should be told how to avoid it. Things, at least on the fringes of cities, are not totally hopeless. There are jobs for LPNs and mechanics and dental hygenists and plumbers and legal secretaries. In two years someone is out of poverty. Maybe not in a great place, but out of the direst situations.

It sounds to me like people need to coordinate more with the community colleges..not every state is as blessed as Washington but there are good programs here and there. PLEASE DO NOT LOOK AT THIS THROUGH SHE IS BLAMING THE VICTIM BLINDERS YOU MIGHT HAVE On. TAKE OFF THE BLINDERS. We still need lots of social programs, we need more policing of dangerous neighborhoods so people can get to and fro safely (that alone would be such an improvement to peoples' lives) and we need to pass on messages of hope to young people. Tell them this again: no drugs, no pregnancies, graduate from high school and then two years of a community college. I'm not one to believe the sky is the limit and people have endless opportunities, but sending out this message of hopelessness is not healthy for them....we need to fix things, crack some heads, send General Honore down to wherever to inspect the rat infested places...and let people know the way out of these situations.....

P.S. If you are in touch with these people in dire circumstances, please to print this out and give it to them. They need to hear there is hope. If I can, I will try to search out specific programs for them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:24 PM

Very good, Barry...

I was getting there piece at a time but you have laid it out...

What a lot of folks just can't realize is that they see poverty from a different perspective, with life skills and backgrounds where they were taught problem solving... These are great things to have if you find yerself, ahhhh, poor but like You have said, Barry, kids that grow up poor don't have that perspective...

More later...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 03:55 PM

Wolfgang, whilst I admire anybody who goes and works in the third world, I think you're making the old Streets of London mistaken argument

How can you tell me that you're lonely
and say for you the sun don't shine?

Just because there are some people in the world, or in history in BLOODY miserable circumstances, it doesn't mean ones own situation is a barrel of laughs, and you have no moral right to bewail the misery that you feel about your own life.

Those of us with experience of working in the inner cities and have seen the wastage of young lives - somehow engineered by our rich society - we know what we've seen. Its not made any less heart breaking by knowing that there are people somewhere even worse off.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM

Barry - Your ability to express yourself is amazing. Most kids that experience the childhood trauma of poverty have trouble learning to write at all. Its a gift. You should seriously explore the possibility of publishing. Your story would open the eyes of many.

When you said, "I never realized it then & I didn't realize it was the same for the adults too," I began to re-think what my own children went through. My daughter still carries some of those scars. Luckily, we did have hope and that was largely due to student loans and grants, subsidized housing, govt. healthcare, a kind dentist and generous friends.

Today we are all doing well and I try to do what I can for the less fortunate but I know its just a drop in the bucket. Most of my time is spent teaching children to read and write but its difficult to access support for families when you realize that a child lacks the essentials in life. All that is left is hope.

We spend billions of dollars making the lives of others miserable through war, when that money should be spent for healthcare and services to the poor. I believe that if we become strong and prosperous as a nation (I mean all people) it will enable us to give meaningful help to the developing nations. Until then, we have to fight the greed around us and speak out.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 12:38 PM

The poorest people I have ever seen was in Chad. People I once have stayed with for a night in an American (not: USA) reservation were rich in comparison. The poorest German too is rich for them.

No money for the bus to school? There's no choice because there's no bus at all and what prevent children to go to school for months (before the rain comes) is hunger. They don't have the physical energy to move. And if they still can, sitting all day on the hard floor and doing rote learning (no books, no pencils, no paper) is too much for them.

The Wiki article on poverty in the USA (sorry if I have overlooked someone else linking to this) has some good thoughts about absolute and relative poverty definitions.

Nevertheless, even if someone is subsidised to be "rich" by a Chad perspective, there should be in Western countries (except inability or a lot of young children to look for) no need for such subsidies, but work and wages (high) enough for everyone to be over an absolute poverty line.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 12:18 PM

I would like to see this thread - and further - become a permanent discussion board, a springboard for action...

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 11:53 AM

Well said, Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Janie
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 06:08 AM

Barry,

I think you have just about covered it all.

Love,

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Poverty in the USA
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Mar 07 - 01:52 AM

WOW, I'm stunned reading this.
You want to know why some can't pull themselves out of their "poor situation"? They've already been beaten to death by the time they realize that there even exists an out (no light at the end of the tunnel). Poverty produces very few fighters & survivors, mostly corpses & skeletons. There is no "war on poverty" there were only a few battles & they all ended by the 70's. Along with any fights like for higher education & health reforms & the push to rid the homeless from the streets. All these issues tie into one another. There's a reason there's no real "war on drugs " or a war on any other front that will eat up the social services dollar. The pie is getting smaller, the slices are becoming thinner & the poor are very easy scapegoats & become easy prey to any other program looking to steal a buck. Who'd want to be a social worker at what their paid or for that matter a teacher or work in the field of day care services. All these occupations pay little though they are probably the most important to the healthy, moral future of the children who'll be our next generation of "deciders", it's only done for love & humanity & that doesn't help those that are in need very much. We don't think much about what's a priority & we reflect it in their pay scales, that's a social problem. Without a decent education, decent health, a good family network & a decent home life & social programs that will offer at least a drop of hope, most won't do well never mind having the disadvantage of being poor which means most of the resources Janie mentioned above are out of their grasp.

Growing up for me was a fight. In school, after school, in the neighborhood, in stores, trying to get around. Getting a haircut, wearing clean & decent clothes, even having keeping good teeth. Instead of going to museums we played on their roofs, in burned out buildings, no matter what we were doing it was a fight, to stay dry, to stay warm to stay fed & it's always a struggle. I never realized it then & I didn't realize it was the same for the adults too. No wonder there were so many faimlies fighting, drinking, gambling, on drugs. The stress levels without those pressure relief valves had to be explosive. Then add to that the hoplessness & pain of not being able to see an end & the heartbreak knowing that your kid is doomed to the same. Taking painkiller's would be just what the health department would order. I can't tell you how many kids I grew up with became hookers, junkies, bank robbers, killers. I don't know of anyone that's alive now, I'm sure there are some & I'm sure they've all moved as far from there roots as possible too. Just think of how many people you know that still know of a few childhood friends or how many you yourself might know? When you grow up poor & surivive it & you look back & you can't find one person alive from your teenage days back to your childhood you have to look at those percentages with a very sad heart & ask what's wrong here. I haven't heard of one person in over 20 yrs. No wonder I feel rich having a few good close friends. It's funny when when someone says just do this or just do that it might make things a bit easier. They have no idea. After having the life beat out of you day after day it's hard to have a disire. Almost like a drowing person reaching for a rope that drifting farther & farther away. They say that once you give up drowing it's a peaceful way to go, after a while so go the poor.

As for Bobert's mention about a reversal on the poverty programs, that's only the tip of the berg. The poor & middle class subsidize this nation & the middle class are only an acident away from joining their less fortunate poorer class these days. When a blue collar worker pays more in taxes than many corporations what else can you call it but a subsidy. A CEO can make 2-20 million for banckrupting a company & stealing the employees retirements & life savings, then refuse to pay the employees wages, the taxes & the fines, & then gets the same amount of time that a poor person without a high priced lawyer gets for stealing neccessities, what else can it be called. When Exxon kills a way of life, steals the living from a seacoast of industries, eterminates a host of natural resources & makes the public pay for the restoration & cleanup of the disaster it caused, then costs the public to then bring them to account for their ways & when called to justice won't pay up even after 15yrs. & still it pays less in taxes than some mom & pop outfit, why is it, is it because the poor are draining them. These companies are making billions off OUR land, from OUR government, off the backs of OUR people & we're subsidizing them? We should have a national health plan, a fair welfair system that works for those that can't, a NATIONAL PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM that's decent for all instead of a system that's not worthy of a 3rd world nation & they should be footing at least a part of the bill.

You want to help the poor, stop the rich from helping themselves.
Spend money at home instead of billions on wars that only the rich benifit from & the poor die in. Bring back the social reforms of the 60's & the money to fund them instead of pissing the dollars into porkbarrel politics. Stop sending jobs overseas along with crates of greenbacks. Kill offshore accounts for multinational corporations that are bleeding us dry of our resources & then milking us with their tax benifits. Like I said there is no war, it's called RAPE!

Barry